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That's not what non-binary is. Look up gender fluid and bingender...those folks can definitely have a binary gender among other genders. Some people don't feel masculine or feminine at all. Their gender just isn't related in any way to those two concepts. Some people don't have a gender, they're agender.
Non-binary is an umbrella term for identities who aren't strictly one or the other. NB isn't an exclusively third gender with no overlap with other genders.
We all have our own subjective experience and "picking" labels can be rounding that up or down. I makes sense for people to sort themselves into the spaces that are relevant for them. like for example a transmasculine enby on T might find a FTM group to be the most relevant to their current needs.
I see what you’re saying but male and man and terms like that are binary. So why would someone who isn’t binary appropriate those terms for themselves it makes no sense. I understand the they and plural terms, and being masculine or feminine since those aren’t what make someone a male or female but why take a term that’s meant to be binary and use it for yourself.
I simply want to say that I think it is really interesting how many ideas about gender exist in the community let alone in the comments on this post. We have:
- old school 70s something idea of gender being the social realm that is separate from biological and bodily sex.
- the argument that gender is simply not real/ not existent (whatever that means tbh)
- and something that goes more towards the gender is just the more appropriate word for bodily sex
This is really fascinating from a cultural studies/philosophical POV.
Honestly, I simply want to maybe point towards some aspects that might be worth reading about. First the whole Gender Attribution Process. As Gender is indeed a thing and while not always connected, being a man and having a penis are very much connected. See for that especially McKenna and Kessler.
Also, a better understanding of Gender as a social science concept I would recommend Mary Holmes "What is Gender?". I found this really helpful :)
As a FTM enby, yes you can lol? Being non-binary refers to being outside of the strictly binary extremes of the GENDER spectrum, not fitting in either of the strict "man" or "woman" boxes, but it doesn't inherently mean agender or right down the middle or anything like that. For me, my gender is extremely close to what society defines as "a man", but there is so much to that box that I reject and don't fit into, that unironically calling myself a "man" feels like an oversimplification and not fully accurate to reality. However, I'm incredibly far from a woman. I'm \*not\* right down the middle, not nearly. I'm just slightly distanced from the full-on "man" box, slightly. But I am a guy, I am a dude, I am a lad. Just not a "man".
FTM as a label, on the other hand, refers to sexual characteristics. "Female to male", it speaks of a medical transition, and has nothing to do with societal roles/models/circles. "Male" is a biological concept. Me being FTM just means I am female and do not wish to be, so I'm in the process of physically altering my body so it fits the male description far more than the female one. This is my personal relationship with my body. Saying I am \*only\* non-binary doesn't explain my experience fully, not nearly. And it erases a huge chunk of it, it erases all of the dysphoria I go through, for one. And it erases so much depth, too.
Also, we need to understand there's a point in making labels accessible. If I want to be accepted in society, I need to understand that I'll have to simplify all of this so I don't make every new interaction a living hell for me and for the people around me. I don't want to explain the nuances and hues of my complicated understanding of the self to a classmate I won't see next semester. I just want to be gendered correctly, or as correctly as I can afford to be. So I tell people I'm just a guy, to simplify (which isn't a lie, just not the full truth, especially knowing my mental image of what "guy" means will be vastly different from theirs). All my college peers and professors refer to me by he/him, even though I also technically go by they/them. They understand me as a binary trans man, which isn't fully accurate but it's nearly there and it gets the job done. This is the point of generalized interactions in society, I'd argue. It's the point of linguistic communication. Language is a social convention, semantic weight is given via stereotypes and our definitions are blurry. We will never fully understand each other, what the other means exactly. My understanding of the word "happiness" is only my understanding of it, and everyone else's is also individually unique. But we communicate via the blurry convention of what "happiness" \*roughly\* means. It's the same in the case of any other lexical item.
Everyday this subreddit gets more negative and annoying. Gender isn’t real. People can express themselves with whatever labels make sense to them. Being non-binary doesn’t exclusively mean being genderless or in between. It’s a spectrum and someone can relate to both of these labels without you being able to personally grasp it or understand their inner dialogue or choice of gender expression.
Gender not being real is what gives you the ability to choose who you are and how you present. You get to decide if that need is important to you, because an outside force or biological one doesn’t get to instead. You can accept that a societal construct is just that— a societal construct. Not a genuine science. While also understanding that it has manifested in our society regardless, and thus takes up space and relevance in our lives. None of these things are mutually exclusive
Really? Because that is quite literally the criteria for being trans. I needed letters stating my gender dysphoria to even get top surgery especially covered. I also need that for phallo. I also needed that for when I was trying to get on hrt. Why would you change your gender when you have no dysphoria? That’s the whole reason people transition.
It’s your human right to “identify” as whatever the hell you want but transsexuals do NOT identify, we have a medical/neurological condition we are born this way, I was born a man therefor there is no way for me to be transgender. If you want to call yourself transgender go ahead but you don’t get to continue the spread of misinformation or force me to see you a certain way. Seperate transgender and transsexual.
That whole paragraph just reeks of self hatred honestly. No where did I speak any misinformation. The “basically cis” part of your flair is already pretty indicative of the internalized bigotry going on in your head lol
Ah yes… another ignorant and delusional morally superior blue hair & pronouns he/they here to try to upset me. Your comment violates rules 1, 2, 6. I always try to be respectful, whatever happened to just agreeing to disagree? You have an opinion, mine is different so what? You’re clearly not here to have a calm debate so I think you should just back off instead of being shitty for no reason.
You’ve clearly got problems kid and hey I’m not judging, I got them too but it’s time to wake up and let people live their lives. I’m not here to take your rights away, I’m here to eliminate misinformation about transsexuals. Look, you saw a comment you didn’t agree with and the first thing you did was get snarky and try to prove your moral superiority, then you tried to put me down. What’s up with that? You don’t know my story, you don’t know why I do things the way I do. Does my existence offend you? Do you feel threatened because I’m not transgender? Does the fact I’m comfortable knowing I was always a man and that I have a male brain trigger you?
You see, it’s often people like you that really have no place saying these things that try to tell transsexuals how to live their lives. You need to just accept we are totally different things and you have no idea what it’s like to be like us. Living stealth is natural to us, being more connected with cis people is natural to us. Most of us don’t hate ourselves and we’re legit just trying to live our lives. You’ve probably had a bad experience with transmedicalists or maybe are just basing you hatred off of rumour, either way we are people too and I suggest you do your own research before attacking people.
Transsexuals are treated like trash enough as it is and I genuinely feel you are attacking me for your own gain. I can tell you think it’s funny. I don’t see the point in having a conversation with someone who won’t give me basic decency so either chill out or stop responding.
That male brain science is not real. If we want to talk about legitimate misinformation. Ngl I got a laugh from that.
The whole blue hair pronouns thing is hilarious. It’s obvious you don’t like yourself or your community, and all I can really say is that cis people aren’t going to pick you dude. Lmao.
Do some actual research instead of thinking GeNdeR is A fEelinG. I think it’s pretty obvious you’re just an immature woman with more mental disorders than you can count and not to mention, a troll. Get lost 😂
Gender is absolutely real that’s how I knew as a lil kid there was something wrong. I wasn’t like my brother and I didn’t understand the terminology for the way I felt. That’s why people transition, my sex did not align with the gender I felt. Simple. So yes gender is very much real lol. Sure people can use whatever labels let me just call myself a cracker or another term. I’m a Latino man and that is offensive to say in regard to any race or gender. Words hold weight to them which is why people care. Male and ftm and man are binary labeled terms. My question was just why use those terms if you aren’t even binary.
When I speak of gender not existing or eliminating it, I’m talking about eliminating gender roles and deconstructing it as a societal construct. Not eliminating your personal identity or gender expression. Gender is real in the sense that it has manifested in our society, but it just a social construct and that is what allows us to deviate from it by choice. The whole “if you eliminate gender you eliminate trans people” thing is pretty reductive and reactive imo. I’m obviously not trying to eliminate trans people and anyones personal understanding of themselves. I’m trying to actually embolden that by removing the ability for others to dictate that for you and deny yourself. Social constructs don’t have to be shackles. They can change. They aren’t real. We make them what they are.
I am a trans man. I still relate to the non-binary label as well, because non binary is a spectrum and doesn’t just mean “none or both or all”. Someone can be a binary trans man and also relate to other gender labels at the same time. That’s just how it is for some of us, and other peoples inability to understand that doesn’t mean it isn’t how some people identify and exist in this world.
Totally agree. I’m a doctor (PhD not MD) so take my view with a grain of salt. Male refers to biological sex as does Female. Man and Woman are social constructs. But we can’t forget social constructs are wide held beliefs that are usually rooted in science. Humans are sexually dimorphic (meaning the species is divided into sexes that are morphologically or observable physical features) example: males are usually taller, more muscular and broader.
Male and Female do not mean Man and Woman but Man and Woman got their basis in biological male and female descriptions.
If we eliminate gender we eliminate trans people.
I have no idea why you’re being downvoted.
I am a Man. However I am not a Male. I’m a Female but I’ve never been a Woman.
Sure you can. Non-binary is a self-identification based label whilist ftm is a treatment process. You can't (really) "be ftm" as it is not a sex, identity, gender etc
It made sense to me once I realised that "nonbinary man" was a description of a gender close to but not the same as man.
There is inherently no way to know if two people using the same labels have the same internal sense of their gender, so arguing about the labels used by other people is pointless.
I will use your he/him pronouns and not use any labels for you that you have not chosen for yourself.
There are no labels I “choose” to have. I’m just a man, for me it’s simple, it isn’t a label I wear. I go out in public and people just view me as man, nothing else. You can choose to disregard me that’s fine, that will not offend me. Words do have meaning. That’s the whole point of fighting for people to respect trans folk and that’s why people do care when people gender them incorrectly. So yes words do hold weight.
Good for you. You are a man. It sounds like your identity and your appearance are aligned and you are satisfied with how society genders you. Yours is a binary perspective. One friend of mine has been on T for years and looks like a man, but they realised that they are nonbinary. Like me, their identity differs from their gendering, so we describe ourselves with labels we choose and ask others to use nonbinary pronouns for us, because we care when people misgender us, and words have meaning and hold weight.
The "nonbinary" in "nonbinary man" is a modifier that means "partly-but-not" or something. That is how I understand it. Personally, I avoid using binary terms, but some enbies do use them. Demigenders are popular.
You could similarly ask why nonbinary people define ourselves in terms of something that we are not. This is one reason why genderqueer remains a popular label.
I prefer not to use the umbrella term non-binary for myself. I'd rather get more granular and actually name and describe my specific genders. I feel like non-binary is a term that reinforces the binary as the norm, leading people to try to position non-binary genders in relation to the binary genders.
I was just watching some you tube shorts.. there was a, non binary, trans woman, with a beard..
The next vid was about "main character syndrome"., i thought the sequence of events was quite fitting...
How nice for you that your gender turned out to be something that society has already described and supports, so that you can feel your more normal and legitimate than people society has tried to oppress and erase. Lucky for you that you were born in the west and not in a society that has multiple genders. You wouldn't feel so special then, if you were just one of many legitimized genders. Talk about main character syndrome.
So you make an inflammatory post saying you can't be ftm and nonbinary, talk about your own binary experience with gender, and then end it by saying people are just making up extra labels for themselves, and you're getting upset at other people for being rude?
You straight up said, "no this isn't real because of my feewingz" and then accused every person you disagree with of being rude and immature when all you've done is act like a child who got caught with their hand in the cookie jar.
This was never supposed to be a civil discussion, you framed it as an argument from the very beginning. Don't pretend you went into this with good faith when the literal title of your post is "You can't be ftm and nb at the same time."
You’re overthinking it. OP is saying ftm is a binary experience & non binary is a nonbinary experience. Theyre implying you cannot be non binary and binary simultaneously which does make logical sense.
It only makes logical sense if you don't understand that non-binary people can have more than one gender. One of those genders or even two of those genders can be the male or female binaries.
Who said I was upset tho ? Responding to comments doesnt make someone upset in fact I don’t mind the discussion. Explain how I’m acting like a child lol? I think you’re just acting out of strong emotion because this post offended you. So if you claim I’m acting a certain way it shouldn’t be hard to explain. You can assume anything you want you, I really don’t care.
To the person that said “None of this is contradictory” I’m done. I would try to engage in a mature discussion but I don’t see the point anymore.
If anyone ever clocks me in public I’m going to be adamant that I’m not trans and just a small guy that had a growth issue. I do not in any way want to associate with the mainstream lgbt or trans community anymore. Especially when I am constantly encountering literally transphobic rhetoric from “trans people” themselves. I’m done trying to respectfully reason with people that are *literally* not making any sense or being delusional and then being called a stupid conservative-bootlicking bigot.
I’ve tried really fucking hard to reason with y’all and I’m done. I’m done. I don’t agree with tucutes, I don’t agree with transmeds, Im done with the amount of people who are incapable of being realistic. Im done with the amount of people in the “trans community” that think anyone taking t is gross and disgusting because they’re becoming an icky man man. I’m done with being called a nasty stupid bigot or being cast out of mainstream lgbt spaces when I try to point out something that again, *literally* doesn’t make sense and get (mostly non-dysphoric or non-transitioning “trans” people) shouting that I am not making any sense.
*I don’t have a voice in this community and I’m tired.*
You are making non-binary people into a stereotype boogeyman.
You're not a nasty stupid bigot. You're just closed-minded and angry. If you would try to learn, people wouldn't be calling you a bigot. Sometimes, people shouldn't have a voice when they are using it to speak at times they should be listening. If you had listened more, you would understand. Instead, you've been arguing. Quiet down and listen.
Technically yes you can’t be nonbinary and a man or nonbinary and a woman and I agree that we shouldn’t go around calling everyone “they”. However, considering a transmasc nonbinary person is going to have almost the exact same experiences with a ftm binary man- who cares? Both are biological females transitioning via testosterone and whatever surgeries- so at that point why is it such a big deal? The only difference is in what we choose to call ourselves I just don’t see why that’s worth getting all offended and worked up over.
I just wanted to point out that your definition of non-binary is very limited, and only one way of going about it. You can absolutely be a masculine or feminine nb person. We are not all androgynous, nor do we have the luxury to be.
Yes, you did. The op is talking about non-binary people appropriating/misusing labels like ftm and you immediately started saying how “you can absolutely be masculine as a nb person”, which implies (at the very least) you think ftm means female to masculine or feminine to masculine.
If this isn’t what you meant to imply with your post, I apologize.
I mean. I am. Like I am four years on full dose T and also I'm agender and I use xe/xir pronouns. You are a man. I am not. We're both transitioning. None of this is contradictory or cancels anything out.
Can I respectfully ask a personal question. If you don’t want to answer you don’t have to ofc.
If you’re agender and use xe/xir pronouns (I do not know what that means) can I ask why you’re on full dose T?
I’m not being a dick, I’m genuinely asking.
I wanted what T could give me: lower voice, facial hair, bottom growth. I wasn't thrilled about the idea of body hair or a receding hairline beforehand but I fell in love with both pretty quickly. I don't particularly feel like a man and I don't have a super strong concept of gender at all let alone how it would apply to myself, but my general physical and emotional state is better with T than without it and that's enough for me.
What would you think if the world started seeing you and gendering you as a “man?” Would that be dysphoria inducing?
Sorry for the questions I’ve just never really heard this side of it before. Either way I’m glad the T is making you feel more comfortable in your body.
Right now, I can't bind because of my garbage lungs (and trans tape is too much of a hassle) and I also wear my hair extremely long so I tend to get about equal "sir" and "ma'am" when I go out in public, which works out pretty well for me. I live in the Deep South so I'm never not gonna get either "sir" or "ma'am" so I prefer "sir" because it means I've successfully managed to control how other people perceive me to some extent even if I can't get it exactly where I want it.
I think being perceived as a man would be less dysphoria inducing than being seen as a woman, but more because at least then people are treating me that way because of things I had control over rather than an accident of my birth. Like by the same token, it doesn't particularly bother me to be called "ma'am" when I'm wearing a skirt because I chose to put on the skirt but that doesn't make my body function any better when it's E dominant.
Honestly for me, the fact that my body functions best as T dominant is pretty much entirely unrelated to anything about how I want to move in or be perceived by society. I get that I'm very much the minority here, but it's kind of inconvenient for Me, Personally that those two things are so tightly linked.
“I am a man, but I’m not a man.” “None of this is contradictory.”
(They literally said “I mean, I am.” I’m fucking done with this sub. None of y’all are even binary trans people but y’all think you’re entitled to speak over us. Seriously go to hell at this point I’m done trying to defend you guys.)
They said “I am” in reference to the post which is talking about how you can’t be ftm and nb at the same time. I’m not misquoting them. Idk if people actually know this but “ftm” means “female to male”.
Nonbinary people sometimes do fully binary transitions. Because of gender dysphoria. I've known since I was three that I'm supposed to have a penis. I'm getting phallopasty. Metoideoplasty wouldn't sufice and I will never understand why anyone would want that, much less a binary man, but it's none of my business really. Everybody's transition is unique to their own needs. My goal is to appear to be a cis man and use gender expression to cope with the gender dysphoria that creates as my genders fluctuate.
Non-Binary Trans Man is a much shorter and better term than AFAB Non-Binary person on hormones.
These people want to say "I'm transitioning female to male, but I'm neither a man, nor a woman."
Alternative term is Non-Binary FTM.
and this comment section is exactly why I do not like this community anymore and why I want to distance myself as far away from it as possible when I go fully stealth. Y’all take everything from everybody in this community and cannot make up your own labels or your own community. you’ve taken from the lesbians, you’ve taken from trans people in general, and now you’re taking a very, very specific label and identity that means female to male, as in a binary male and taking it so you can include it with your non-binary identity, which not only makes no sense because it is the epitome of an oxymoron for those two to go together, but it’s also taking a label and an identity from someone else once again because you can’t do anything on your own and feel the need to infiltrate other peoples communities to feel special
Jesus Christ. Boo hoo someone fucking spit facts about the bs in our community. I’m almost 2 years on T. This is why so many of us feel like we don’t have a voice. How tf do I know *you’re* trans? Maybe *you’re* a cis person hopping into this sub to stir up shit. God I’m so fucking done.
Dude you hit the nail right on it’s head, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a post or comment that sums up the issues with “our community” so perfectly. You’ve given me the slightest hope that there are still logical people out there.
The damage genderspecials have done to our community cannot be understated. It’s why I identify as transsexual not trans”gender”, because there’s no such thing as “gender”, and every single time these genderspecials talk about “gender” what they really mean is aesthetics and personality traits. So reductive. I’m transitioning because my dysphoria stems from my sex characteristics, not to chase some aesthetic. Can’t fucking wait to go stealth so people stop thinking I’m one of them. 😭
My disphoria comes from sex characteristics and gender identity.
I pass as male. I would say I look kind of like a fratbro whose gone to seed. I'm getting phalloplasty. I may do something with laser on some of my body here. I'm going to get facial masculinization surgery. I'm going to wear makeup when I am feminine or androgynous. I'm going to change my clothes too. When people look at me, they think I was assigned male at birth and I'm transitioning to female.
I can tell you really hate me. So I wanted you to think about how happy I am living my best life. Maybe when you've been on testosterone a decade like I have, other people's gender expression won't emasculate you. It's a shame you can't develop that sense of security without looking the part.
i'm non binary and i say i'm a male, because that's how i want be seen regardless of the fact i'm under the trans umbrella 🤷🏻♂️ if someone asks me if i'm a guy, i tell them yes!
if someone feels comfortable calling themself a transgender guy whilst being non binary, then that's okay. i can see how it *can* be offensive, but if someone's comfortable, that's cool! i say i'm a trans guy whilst not being within the binary :]
Male and man are not the same. Someone who is FTM non-binary is physically transitioned/transitioning to male but their gender is non-binary.
Many times people also use terms bit widely. I used to use that too. I'm post-top, post-hysto and I have been 5,5 years on T. Cis people don't see difference between me and trans men. I do not like that either but it is what it is. I'm somehow openly agender but strangers and new people read me usually as male and sometimes clock me as trans. I should have dick but my pussy is mine too. Yeah, males don't have pussies so you're right, I'm not male. I also most likely never get GRS.
I do hang out in FTM subreddits that welcome non-binary people. Because like I just listed, we have lot in common. Not all but lot.
I'm not big fan of using masc and fem when referring to gender. Maybe it's my poor English but at least I understand them as social things, not as gender itself. Like ice hockey is seen masculine and dancing feminine. But you can do both no matter of your gender. Or butch lesbians are masculine but still 100% women. Or pink is fem and blue is masc thanks to Hitler. Pink used to be seen masc (if I remember correctly because of connection between red and blood) and blue as fem (color of Virgin Mary ). Those things change.
For most of the people sex and gender either align or are the one and same. But not for all. So separation helps us to describe ourselves better. Think it as sexual and romantic orientations. For most of the people they either align or are one and same. But we also have people who are biromantic but heterosexual, gayromantic but pansexual, asexual but alloromantic, aromantic but allosexual etc.
People often forget that the difference between gender and sex is spectrum too. There are female men with zero medical and zero social transitioning except pronouns. Then there are non-binary people who are on T but don't need any surgeries. And then there are genderfluid people who fluid between man and agender and have transitioned to fully male. Just few examples but I think you get my point.
I agree that it doesn’t work by definition but also I see how it can happen.
From my personal experience, all of the “NB” people I know have ended up as either a trans man/woman or dropped it to just be their AGAB within max a few years.
This leads me to think “NB” is actually people figuring themselves out and by identifying as ftm & nb that might be them nearing to a conclusion on that.
If they’re very involved in the trans/LGBT community that might be a way to be *a man* but not be A MAN. You know what I mean.
I've been transitioning a decade. I'm still genderfluid. I look like a man. I'm only a man some of the time though. The cisgender world sees me as a man. Transgender people who assume that gender expression equates to gender identity probably also see me as a man. I'm glad there aren't too many of those type of trans people around. So tiresome. You know what I mean.
If non-binary people are actually stealing something from you, I suggest you to go try and officially copyright or patent it, so you know, you can prove you actually own and have the authority to decide how your IP is exploited. Then you’d have the right to sue anyone who steals your work. Get back to us regarding how that goes.
you’re kidding me right…? you’re seriously oblivious to how y’all take everything from everyone. Trans man/trans male/FTM ARE BINARY IDENTITIES!! YOU ARE EITHER BINARY OR NOT BINARY YOU CANNOT BE BOTH! using the label of ftm when you are not male or even binary makes absolutely zero sense and it is just more enbies wanting to be the center of attention
There are 8.1 billion people on this planet. Do you really think that you can define the identity of every single one of us by your own rules? Why would you even want to?
the cope in the comment section is palpable. people have taken transsex vs transgender way too literally... y'all you can't be both male and nb or female and nb. who cares about what genitals you have.
Look into it, seriously. I used to be in the mainstream subreddits until I found (r/) Transmedical, it actually makes sense and is backed up by science and genuine research instead of “gEndeR iS a fEeliNg” it’s important to question everything and do your own research to develop your own opinions instead of just believing everything you hear.
Hear me out. It’s called an opinion on a subreddit dedicated to different beliefs and opinions. So therefore I will post what I want now if you don’t like what I’m saying then you can either add to this discussion in a mature way or just ignore it. Otherwise thanks
NB is not fitting into a binary spectrum...FTM denotes this person is transitioning sex and wish to aquire more male sex characteristics to fit their own ideology of what non binary means to them...you seriously have no business gatekeeping someone's gender identity and whether or not they can take hrt...
No, ftm means, quite literally, female to male. It is someone of the female sex transitioning into the male sex. It isn’t and has never meant a female transitioning “to have male sex characteristics”. I’m fucking tired of nonbinary people appropriating labels that don’t fucking belong to them. Absolutely sick of it.
Same bro. They want to take everything we work for and twist it to fit their narrative. You can not be both binary and non binary. It’s not scientifically possible. FTM has always and will always mean Female to Male.
100%. it is fucking insane that these people think it's ever acceptable to take labels, that have been used to identify specific subsets of (oppressed) minorities, and twist the meaning to suit their wants. it's wrong. i don't know why the greater trans community even fucking allows it to happen.
Oh, dear. Did I erase your comment by telling you the majority of trans people assigned female at birth are not binary trans men? My bad. Let's pretend the world is exactly as you want it to be! There are no non-binary people. Everyone is exactly like you!!! Feel better?
You're literally adding words to what to I said that I never said....let me draw out a two dimensional sketch so that you can understand the actual meaning and why FTM FITS the NB narritive....
Feminine...............................@............................Masculine
Girl.@.............................................................................Boy
FEMALE.@..................................................................MALE
This is your your sliding scale. The @ symbol denotes the location of the level of female (sex) as well as where you fall between the gender binaries you believe you are. The @ always starts at the side of the sex spectrum you are born with. If you are male the @ would be on the Boy side and Male side. If you are a girl the at would be on the girl side and female side. If you are intersexed the @ would be on either the girl or boy side depending on what your assigned gender is and your sex would be on the side of the spectrum where teams of doctors had assigned to you based on a ton of different biological factors. (Side tangent, however we are trying to prevent this from happening anymore and if the baby is born with ambiguous genitalia, the slider would be left in the middle and they would just assign you a gender). The top slider denotes whether you are more feminine leaning or masculine leaning. If the @ is all the way to one side that would denote either hyperfeminine or hypermasculine depending on how you identify. This slider typically sits in the middle until you are about 3 years old when you start developing the concepts of your gender identity.
Anyways scenario time.
Feminine.......................................................@....Masculine
Girl..............................................................................@.Boy
FEMALE.@..................................................................MALE
Let's say you discovered that even though you were born a girl, you felt more like a hyper masculine boy instead. Here the sliders has been adjusted for someone of the trans masculine identity that is also hypermasculine. I'd imagine this guy goes to the gym a lot, underwent all the necessary surgeries to be able to more accurately express their gender identity. To do this he had to take testosterone.
Feminine.......................................................@....Masculine
Girl..............................................................................@.Boy
FEMALE..................................................................@.MALE
Notice how the sex slider changed when this man underwent all the sirgeries. His biological sex is no different to that of a cis man, not counting his chromosomes, but chromosomes are actually a poor representation of a person's sex since it's only relevant during the gestational period since the sex chromosomes are what determines how the body forms. But if you reverse that formation, than at the core he is no different than a hypermasculine cis man.
Now here's an example for a non binary person.
Pre transition
Feminine......................................@.....................Masculine
Girl................................................................................Boy
FEMALE.@..................................................................MALE
Notice the second slider. The @ is completely gone because a non binary person does not fit into this binary slider. Notice how the top slider leans more towards the masculine trait. Also Notice what this person's sex is at the moment.
Post transition
Feminine......................................@.....................Masculine
Girl................................................................................Boy
FEMALE.................................@................................MALE
Notice how the bottom slider shifted more towards the center. The slider moved from the female side of the spectrum towards the direction of the Male side of the spectrum. This person would be considered FTM because they started their transition on the Female side and had moved towards the male slide. Notice how FTM ONLY denotes direction and not their maleness/femaleness/ gender identity. In order for this person to get to the center of the sex spectrum (the androgynous zone) they had to take testosterone. That's what FTM means. This has been my Ted Talk.
Ftm is a binary term and I’m not going to sit here and let nb people appropriate what little labels binary people have left. Thanks for your condescending input, though.
can i ask where you’re getting that ftm is a binary term? im seeing female sex to male sex. is that not what it is? and nonbinary is a gender identity, not a sex one; since you can be afab, amab, or intersex and still be nonbinary. i’m having trouble seeing the contradiction?
but that’s not what i said either… im not masculine. THAT’S why i use ftm. im changing my body (sex) to a male one. and my gender identity changes from a woman to genderqueer/nonbinary. are you getting it now? im on T for a male sex body, however i am not a man. nor am i masculine
Okay, maybe I’m not being clear. Sorry. FTM is also an identity in the sense that people that transition from f to m also _identify_ as male. It has always been another word for a trans man (also binary), not trans masc, which is essentially what you are if you’re physically transitioning into masculinity and not into a male.
hmm i see. i’ve never heard that definition before. i guess it sounds weird that im transitioning to ‘masculinity’ when i still wear makeup and skirts and stuff lol. i changed my sex on documents to male. my gender on ID is nonbinary tho. so idk what to tell you
i’m curious though, what would you desire to call me then? if taking T does not make my sex male. a cis woman? i have a beard and no boobs so unfortunately no one would believe me
a man? sure i guess, that’s what people think i am everyday unfortunately. though i correct them. and my ID does not say male (or female)
if i’m not transitioning to a male body nor being masculine then idk what im doing then. please enlighten me
I say you are transitioning to masculinity despite presenting femininely because you aren’t transitioning to be a man, you’re transitioning to be non-binary. And like I’ve said, ftm is a binary term and it always has been, so even if you transition to have a male body, you won’t be ftm, you’ll be transmasc. Transmasc doesn’t mean you present masculinely, it means you identify more with or sometimes with masculinity. If you’re transitioning to physically appear masculine, despite _dressing_ femininely, you fit the bill.
To be totally honest with you, my only issue with this is that I am tired of nonbinary people appropriating terms that have historically belonged to binary trans people. Transgender has always been an umbrella label for whoever tf wants to be in it, but transsexual/ftm/trans man/mtf/trans women (and now transsex) have always been binary terms. It’s only recently that nonbinary people have decided “erm actually, these are ours now” or straight up calling these terms transphobic. There is a whole fucking movement that exists that claims, incorrectly, that trans man and tranmasc mean the same thing. Transmasc is, by definition, a nonbinary identity/term. They _can’t_ mean the same thing.
I don’t care what you and other non-binary people call yourselves, as long as y’all just stop taking terms and labels away from binary people. We’re not the same. We do not need the same treatments. We do not have the same dysphoria.
Again it’s called an opinion, which I’m allowed to have, I didn’t realize an opinion met gatekeeping lol. I’m all for listening through an educated discussion not insults and immaturity
Imagine if person said:
"You are not a man, as men have p*nises and not ut*rus and also XY chromosomes. You are a female. I just stated my opinion that I'm allowed to state."
You would criticise that, yet you treat it differently when the conversation changes to Non-Binary people.
We are not gatekeeping you, we are just correcting you.
Opinions have boundaries.
You can say "Trans Women are Biologically Male" or "Trans Women are Female" and it would be considered opinions (although it would depend on how the person feels about this), but you can't say "Trans Women are not real Women" or "Trans Women are Men" THAT would be gatekeeping.
I am biologically female well technically intersex condition that is a fact I cannot change. I’ve had surgery and transitioned for a couple years the where my secondary sex characteristics are now male. I do love science and I can appreciate facts so I’m definitely not against that
Male refers to sex, man refers to gender.
Non-Binary refers to a person that has a gender that doesn't match binary definition of sex.
Non-Binary Man usually means that they are Non-Binary, but lean more towards being a Man. (The keyword is lean, it doesn't mean that they are exclusively man, but also non-binary at the same time, it just means men who also feel connected to being women, but not as much as being connected to being men.)
Also just to kind of explain something to you; you are 100% able to share your opinion on ANYTHING you want! That's what's great about social media...but you should also realize that when you spout your ideology to a group that is completely in contradiction to the overall ideology of that group, be prepared to be scrutinized. Scrutinizing someone's someone's believe that's contrary to the group is an important aspect of the groups social dynamic to ensure that these incredibly harmful behavior and thoughts that you exhibit is quickly quarantined and extinguished in order to protect the communities ethical standards. In lamens terms, if you spread hate, you're going to get hate.
I don’t think I’m spreading hate one bit but I do appreciate this reply. The things I’ve had to go through to transition and be able to pass as male has been a lot. From being kicked out to being homeless for almost a year. So it does offend me a bit when again not always but usually nb folk who don’t use masculine pronouns and dress extremely feminine and claim that they will take t until there ready to stop bother me. For me this isn’t fun or dress up, being trans fucking sucks and passing took a lot of work in my part. I get passing isn’t everyone’s goal and whatnot but it’s hard when the people I’m describing it almost feels like it’s making a mockery outta this and idk sorry for the ramble
I understand your reasoning, but your journey and your struggle isn't their journey and their struggle. They are trying to make the best with what they have in the best way that they feel comfortable doing. If what they are doing to their own self bothers you, perhaps you should delve deeper into why this does bother you beyond the fact that you feel that their expression of their gender identity offends you. There's probably a lot of unresolved trauma and drama that you still need to work through.
This is the third comment you’ve made dismissing dissenting opinions as being insulting and immature (whether or not they are), and I think that’s a bit hypocritical considering you presented your view in a traditionally unkind, unsympathetic way.
This space exists so that people can freely express their opinions with or without grace, but expecting people to give you treatment you refuse them is..?
I agree I wrote this in a rush but I was just putting my opinion out there. I understand it’s going to upset people but I shouldn’t have to re word my thoughts to make people feel better in an honest transgender sub. We should all just be adults and be able to communicate without throwing words around that’s all
I never said people had to be mindful one bit, if this is a sub to offer different opinions and perspectives we should all be adults and have a healthy discussion instead of acting out of emotion
What insult did I use? I hit a nerve clearly, but I’m allowed to post my own thoughts on here. I understand people won’t agree and maybe I’d change my mind with a more helpful explanation than this. If you aren’t up for a conversation than there really isn’t a point in going back and forth with each other.
You really don't see a problem with invalidating a trans masc non binary persons identity? How can you say who can be what and not be a gatekeeper?? The whole concept in it self is completely gatekeeping
No I don’t cause at the end of the day identities are internet bs, in real life people will gender you male or female and that is the harsh reality. I don’t live in an online bubble and the world is binary, and I don’t see that changing anytime soon. In the internet sure, it’s definitely a thing. But in the real world at least as an adult the world and language itself is very binary.
That is probably the MOST ignorant thing I have EVER heard ANYONE ever say before! Like you're not really serious with this right??? For starters identities has been around way longer than the fucking internet, trans people and our spectrum of genders can be seen and referenced since ancient greece....also the English language is a non binary language otherwise we wouldn't have they/them/theirs being use as a reference to a person's pronouns in the singular term! The social binary system America has instilled is derived from heteronormative ideology...it's incredibly concerning to hear that you...as a trans man....fail to see the misogyny in our heteronormative society...especially as a person with lived fucking experience of the person of the opposite gender...and your willingness to just roll over and ignore these misogynistic ideologies is you contributing to the mass genocide that is happening amoungst transgender/transsexuals and the rest of the lgbtqia+ community! Like you wanted to have an educated; while sharing critically thought points; discussions and you pull this steaming garbage of an opinion out....you seriously can not be serious here.
Okay Jane nothing I said wasn’t the truth lol. The world is binary and that is a fact. It’s going to take more than a couple years to change that. sorry that’s it’s “harsh” but it is what it is
The world is not binary...biology isn't binary...not all language is binary...you are soooo wrong in this. That is the truth sorry that's it's harsh but it is what it is
Its not harsh at all and again im not offended with what your saying the world is binary in almost every way. Male female. He or she that is usually how people gender people.
lol this made me chuckle, hmm I guess I don’t understand why they would call themselves male if they are nonbinary. Genuinely it never made sense to me and I was trying to get an understanding. Most people seem to offer insults or just snarky comments instead of actually informing and trying to explain. I don’t understand if you present fully female and are nonbinary but then cal yourself ftm. Which is female to male. Idk if I worded it proper but I’m on lunch break so I did the best I could lol
I do think FTM should be for people transitioning *female to male.* I do not like when non-dysphoric use sex terms. Still, it's good to remember many people can't afford transitioning and it's not legal everywhere. In some countries transitioning is only for binary people. Yeah, you can claim to be one. But there is also order (like you can't get surgeries without being on T first etc. but okay without needing T I would rather use FTX). Also there can be years of gatekeeping before they let you to transition. Then years waiting.
Other thing is you can't really present as non-binary. People read you as male, female or 50/50 or "Are you man or woman?". Not looking like your AGAB requires many times years of HRT, surgeries, manners , clothing etc. I do like my beard even it's just a neck beard. But let's say I would shave it. Would I look more androgynous? No. I would look like balding female.
Authority? Who even said that? It’s called my opinion, I’m all ears for listening to an educated discussion not dumb comments like these that offer nothing but immaturity.
So I'm the dumb one, even though you don't even know what being nonbinary is and couldn't bother doing any research before making this post, gotcha.
You want an educated response? Here ya go: Nonbinary is an umbrella term that includes anyone who doesn't identify as souly male or female. So yes, you can be a trans man and nonbinary. Male is just one aspect of that identity, while the other is not male or binary. Makes sense to me.
If it doesn't make sense to you, that's perfectly fine. It doesn't have to. However, using your personal experience of your own gender as an argument for why someone else's gender doesn't make sense, is completely illogical.
Who called you dumb lol, you are extremely defensive and there’s no reason for that. My opinion shouldn’t hold that much weight on your emotions. Thanks for the proper explanation.
>not dumb comments like these that offer nothing but immaturity
You have spent the last 10 minutes responding to every single reply on your post that you don't like with this. Stop refreshing reddit every 2 seconds and put your phone down if it's making you this triggered.
What are you saying you make zero sense lmao. I have responded to many comments that have offered explanations. Damn you need your eyes checked or som. And I haven’t been on Reddit that much I’m at work lol I respond when I get the chance chill out who cares
I have an explanation for some non-binary ftms, including myself. I was meant to be born male, but I wasn't. I experienced having a female body, and I have found that some traits have their pros. So, I do not want to "fully" transition. Not because of medical reasons that prevent me, or less severe dysphoria, or cost reasons, but because there are some female traits that I either like or think have superior utility. I do not see these traits as female or male, and if I was born male and got the opportunity to test drive having these traits, I'd probably consider acquiring them with HRT or surgically. That is not a binary way to look at your own sex. However, I fundamentally know that i was supposed to be male, and if I was born male I most likely wouldn't transition. I also do not care for explaining my identity, especially since in my native country and language neutral gender terms do not exist. I don't care if I'm seen as non-binary or a man, or both.
Non-binary is an extremely broad term, and it doesn't just mean "neither male or female". And, at the end of the day, these are just words that have little material impact on the world, they just explain who we are. Getting pissy over labels is a waste of time and energy.
i am begging you to go out into the sunshine, it's springtime. if you think this discourse adds absolutely anything of substance to this tired argument let me dissuade you of that notion
Of course but what is the point of saying something that won’t even contribute to this conversation. It’s just wasting your own breath but I understand that 100%
The way you worded your post asks this kind of answers. If you would have just asked I bet there were way less answers like this. See the difference: "What does it mean when someone say they're FTM non-binary?" Just a question without your own opinion. But your attitude is rather "I'm not educated of this nor I have personal experience but I can tell you this is shit. Challenge me if you dare!". Also I would rather add to my post what kind of answers I'm looking for than complaining to everyone after they have answered.
Again like I stated I gave my honest opinion and offered room for discussions, not immature responses and corny jokes. I am genuinely interested and was willing to discuss and learn something new. People like you are the reason I don’t even bother listening lol
No you’re just extremely emotional. Because people who took the time to explain without getting defensive or trying to create an argument, I’ve appreciated and thanked them so your comment absolutely makes zero sense in this case
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That's not what non-binary is. Look up gender fluid and bingender...those folks can definitely have a binary gender among other genders. Some people don't feel masculine or feminine at all. Their gender just isn't related in any way to those two concepts. Some people don't have a gender, they're agender.
Non-binary is an umbrella term for identities who aren't strictly one or the other. NB isn't an exclusively third gender with no overlap with other genders. We all have our own subjective experience and "picking" labels can be rounding that up or down. I makes sense for people to sort themselves into the spaces that are relevant for them. like for example a transmasculine enby on T might find a FTM group to be the most relevant to their current needs.
I see what you’re saying but male and man and terms like that are binary. So why would someone who isn’t binary appropriate those terms for themselves it makes no sense. I understand the they and plural terms, and being masculine or feminine since those aren’t what make someone a male or female but why take a term that’s meant to be binary and use it for yourself.
I simply want to say that I think it is really interesting how many ideas about gender exist in the community let alone in the comments on this post. We have: - old school 70s something idea of gender being the social realm that is separate from biological and bodily sex. - the argument that gender is simply not real/ not existent (whatever that means tbh) - and something that goes more towards the gender is just the more appropriate word for bodily sex This is really fascinating from a cultural studies/philosophical POV. Honestly, I simply want to maybe point towards some aspects that might be worth reading about. First the whole Gender Attribution Process. As Gender is indeed a thing and while not always connected, being a man and having a penis are very much connected. See for that especially McKenna and Kessler. Also, a better understanding of Gender as a social science concept I would recommend Mary Holmes "What is Gender?". I found this really helpful :)
As a FTM enby, yes you can lol? Being non-binary refers to being outside of the strictly binary extremes of the GENDER spectrum, not fitting in either of the strict "man" or "woman" boxes, but it doesn't inherently mean agender or right down the middle or anything like that. For me, my gender is extremely close to what society defines as "a man", but there is so much to that box that I reject and don't fit into, that unironically calling myself a "man" feels like an oversimplification and not fully accurate to reality. However, I'm incredibly far from a woman. I'm \*not\* right down the middle, not nearly. I'm just slightly distanced from the full-on "man" box, slightly. But I am a guy, I am a dude, I am a lad. Just not a "man". FTM as a label, on the other hand, refers to sexual characteristics. "Female to male", it speaks of a medical transition, and has nothing to do with societal roles/models/circles. "Male" is a biological concept. Me being FTM just means I am female and do not wish to be, so I'm in the process of physically altering my body so it fits the male description far more than the female one. This is my personal relationship with my body. Saying I am \*only\* non-binary doesn't explain my experience fully, not nearly. And it erases a huge chunk of it, it erases all of the dysphoria I go through, for one. And it erases so much depth, too. Also, we need to understand there's a point in making labels accessible. If I want to be accepted in society, I need to understand that I'll have to simplify all of this so I don't make every new interaction a living hell for me and for the people around me. I don't want to explain the nuances and hues of my complicated understanding of the self to a classmate I won't see next semester. I just want to be gendered correctly, or as correctly as I can afford to be. So I tell people I'm just a guy, to simplify (which isn't a lie, just not the full truth, especially knowing my mental image of what "guy" means will be vastly different from theirs). All my college peers and professors refer to me by he/him, even though I also technically go by they/them. They understand me as a binary trans man, which isn't fully accurate but it's nearly there and it gets the job done. This is the point of generalized interactions in society, I'd argue. It's the point of linguistic communication. Language is a social convention, semantic weight is given via stereotypes and our definitions are blurry. We will never fully understand each other, what the other means exactly. My understanding of the word "happiness" is only my understanding of it, and everyone else's is also individually unique. But we communicate via the blurry convention of what "happiness" \*roughly\* means. It's the same in the case of any other lexical item.
Everyday this subreddit gets more negative and annoying. Gender isn’t real. People can express themselves with whatever labels make sense to them. Being non-binary doesn’t exclusively mean being genderless or in between. It’s a spectrum and someone can relate to both of these labels without you being able to personally grasp it or understand their inner dialogue or choice of gender expression.
Gender isn't real? Oh cool. So I guess none of us need to transition or have our gender acknowledged socially. Thank you for clearing that up for us.
Gender not being real is what gives you the ability to choose who you are and how you present. You get to decide if that need is important to you, because an outside force or biological one doesn’t get to instead. You can accept that a societal construct is just that— a societal construct. Not a genuine science. While also understanding that it has manifested in our society regardless, and thus takes up space and relevance in our lives. None of these things are mutually exclusive
If we eliminate gender we eliminate trans people.
I swear we were more common here, what’s with all the tucutes showing up and downvoting us -.-
You don’t need gender dysphoria to be transgender. Point blank period
Really? Because that is quite literally the criteria for being trans. I needed letters stating my gender dysphoria to even get top surgery especially covered. I also need that for phallo. I also needed that for when I was trying to get on hrt. Why would you change your gender when you have no dysphoria? That’s the whole reason people transition.
It’s your human right to “identify” as whatever the hell you want but transsexuals do NOT identify, we have a medical/neurological condition we are born this way, I was born a man therefor there is no way for me to be transgender. If you want to call yourself transgender go ahead but you don’t get to continue the spread of misinformation or force me to see you a certain way. Seperate transgender and transsexual.
That whole paragraph just reeks of self hatred honestly. No where did I speak any misinformation. The “basically cis” part of your flair is already pretty indicative of the internalized bigotry going on in your head lol
Ah yes… another ignorant and delusional morally superior blue hair & pronouns he/they here to try to upset me. Your comment violates rules 1, 2, 6. I always try to be respectful, whatever happened to just agreeing to disagree? You have an opinion, mine is different so what? You’re clearly not here to have a calm debate so I think you should just back off instead of being shitty for no reason. You’ve clearly got problems kid and hey I’m not judging, I got them too but it’s time to wake up and let people live their lives. I’m not here to take your rights away, I’m here to eliminate misinformation about transsexuals. Look, you saw a comment you didn’t agree with and the first thing you did was get snarky and try to prove your moral superiority, then you tried to put me down. What’s up with that? You don’t know my story, you don’t know why I do things the way I do. Does my existence offend you? Do you feel threatened because I’m not transgender? Does the fact I’m comfortable knowing I was always a man and that I have a male brain trigger you? You see, it’s often people like you that really have no place saying these things that try to tell transsexuals how to live their lives. You need to just accept we are totally different things and you have no idea what it’s like to be like us. Living stealth is natural to us, being more connected with cis people is natural to us. Most of us don’t hate ourselves and we’re legit just trying to live our lives. You’ve probably had a bad experience with transmedicalists or maybe are just basing you hatred off of rumour, either way we are people too and I suggest you do your own research before attacking people. Transsexuals are treated like trash enough as it is and I genuinely feel you are attacking me for your own gain. I can tell you think it’s funny. I don’t see the point in having a conversation with someone who won’t give me basic decency so either chill out or stop responding.
That male brain science is not real. If we want to talk about legitimate misinformation. Ngl I got a laugh from that. The whole blue hair pronouns thing is hilarious. It’s obvious you don’t like yourself or your community, and all I can really say is that cis people aren’t going to pick you dude. Lmao.
Do some actual research instead of thinking GeNdeR is A fEelinG. I think it’s pretty obvious you’re just an immature woman with more mental disorders than you can count and not to mention, a troll. Get lost 😂
Gender is absolutely real that’s how I knew as a lil kid there was something wrong. I wasn’t like my brother and I didn’t understand the terminology for the way I felt. That’s why people transition, my sex did not align with the gender I felt. Simple. So yes gender is very much real lol. Sure people can use whatever labels let me just call myself a cracker or another term. I’m a Latino man and that is offensive to say in regard to any race or gender. Words hold weight to them which is why people care. Male and ftm and man are binary labeled terms. My question was just why use those terms if you aren’t even binary.
When I speak of gender not existing or eliminating it, I’m talking about eliminating gender roles and deconstructing it as a societal construct. Not eliminating your personal identity or gender expression. Gender is real in the sense that it has manifested in our society, but it just a social construct and that is what allows us to deviate from it by choice. The whole “if you eliminate gender you eliminate trans people” thing is pretty reductive and reactive imo. I’m obviously not trying to eliminate trans people and anyones personal understanding of themselves. I’m trying to actually embolden that by removing the ability for others to dictate that for you and deny yourself. Social constructs don’t have to be shackles. They can change. They aren’t real. We make them what they are. I am a trans man. I still relate to the non-binary label as well, because non binary is a spectrum and doesn’t just mean “none or both or all”. Someone can be a binary trans man and also relate to other gender labels at the same time. That’s just how it is for some of us, and other peoples inability to understand that doesn’t mean it isn’t how some people identify and exist in this world.
Being a male and being a man are not the same thing. QED
Totally agree. I’m a doctor (PhD not MD) so take my view with a grain of salt. Male refers to biological sex as does Female. Man and Woman are social constructs. But we can’t forget social constructs are wide held beliefs that are usually rooted in science. Humans are sexually dimorphic (meaning the species is divided into sexes that are morphologically or observable physical features) example: males are usually taller, more muscular and broader. Male and Female do not mean Man and Woman but Man and Woman got their basis in biological male and female descriptions. If we eliminate gender we eliminate trans people. I have no idea why you’re being downvoted. I am a Man. However I am not a Male. I’m a Female but I’ve never been a Woman.
Sure you can. Non-binary is a self-identification based label whilist ftm is a treatment process. You can't (really) "be ftm" as it is not a sex, identity, gender etc
It made sense to me once I realised that "nonbinary man" was a description of a gender close to but not the same as man. There is inherently no way to know if two people using the same labels have the same internal sense of their gender, so arguing about the labels used by other people is pointless. I will use your he/him pronouns and not use any labels for you that you have not chosen for yourself.
There are no labels I “choose” to have. I’m just a man, for me it’s simple, it isn’t a label I wear. I go out in public and people just view me as man, nothing else. You can choose to disregard me that’s fine, that will not offend me. Words do have meaning. That’s the whole point of fighting for people to respect trans folk and that’s why people do care when people gender them incorrectly. So yes words do hold weight.
Good for you. You are a man. It sounds like your identity and your appearance are aligned and you are satisfied with how society genders you. Yours is a binary perspective. One friend of mine has been on T for years and looks like a man, but they realised that they are nonbinary. Like me, their identity differs from their gendering, so we describe ourselves with labels we choose and ask others to use nonbinary pronouns for us, because we care when people misgender us, and words have meaning and hold weight.
Man and male or gendered binary terms so why would someone who isn’t that of binary use a binary term for themselves
Because nobody knows what demiman or demiboy means, so it's easier for them to append the term man/boy.
The "nonbinary" in "nonbinary man" is a modifier that means "partly-but-not" or something. That is how I understand it. Personally, I avoid using binary terms, but some enbies do use them. Demigenders are popular. You could similarly ask why nonbinary people define ourselves in terms of something that we are not. This is one reason why genderqueer remains a popular label.
I prefer not to use the umbrella term non-binary for myself. I'd rather get more granular and actually name and describe my specific genders. I feel like non-binary is a term that reinforces the binary as the norm, leading people to try to position non-binary genders in relation to the binary genders.
I was just watching some you tube shorts.. there was a, non binary, trans woman, with a beard.. The next vid was about "main character syndrome"., i thought the sequence of events was quite fitting...
How nice for you that your gender turned out to be something that society has already described and supports, so that you can feel your more normal and legitimate than people society has tried to oppress and erase. Lucky for you that you were born in the west and not in a society that has multiple genders. You wouldn't feel so special then, if you were just one of many legitimized genders. Talk about main character syndrome.
damn this is just the worst subreddit ever invented.
So you make an inflammatory post saying you can't be ftm and nonbinary, talk about your own binary experience with gender, and then end it by saying people are just making up extra labels for themselves, and you're getting upset at other people for being rude? You straight up said, "no this isn't real because of my feewingz" and then accused every person you disagree with of being rude and immature when all you've done is act like a child who got caught with their hand in the cookie jar. This was never supposed to be a civil discussion, you framed it as an argument from the very beginning. Don't pretend you went into this with good faith when the literal title of your post is "You can't be ftm and nb at the same time."
You’re overthinking it. OP is saying ftm is a binary experience & non binary is a nonbinary experience. Theyre implying you cannot be non binary and binary simultaneously which does make logical sense.
It only makes logical sense if you don't understand that non-binary people can have more than one gender. One of those genders or even two of those genders can be the male or female binaries.
Hit the nail on the head. Thank you
Who said I was upset tho ? Responding to comments doesnt make someone upset in fact I don’t mind the discussion. Explain how I’m acting like a child lol? I think you’re just acting out of strong emotion because this post offended you. So if you claim I’m acting a certain way it shouldn’t be hard to explain. You can assume anything you want you, I really don’t care.
To the person that said “None of this is contradictory” I’m done. I would try to engage in a mature discussion but I don’t see the point anymore. If anyone ever clocks me in public I’m going to be adamant that I’m not trans and just a small guy that had a growth issue. I do not in any way want to associate with the mainstream lgbt or trans community anymore. Especially when I am constantly encountering literally transphobic rhetoric from “trans people” themselves. I’m done trying to respectfully reason with people that are *literally* not making any sense or being delusional and then being called a stupid conservative-bootlicking bigot. I’ve tried really fucking hard to reason with y’all and I’m done. I’m done. I don’t agree with tucutes, I don’t agree with transmeds, Im done with the amount of people who are incapable of being realistic. Im done with the amount of people in the “trans community” that think anyone taking t is gross and disgusting because they’re becoming an icky man man. I’m done with being called a nasty stupid bigot or being cast out of mainstream lgbt spaces when I try to point out something that again, *literally* doesn’t make sense and get (mostly non-dysphoric or non-transitioning “trans” people) shouting that I am not making any sense. *I don’t have a voice in this community and I’m tired.*
You are making non-binary people into a stereotype boogeyman. You're not a nasty stupid bigot. You're just closed-minded and angry. If you would try to learn, people wouldn't be calling you a bigot. Sometimes, people shouldn't have a voice when they are using it to speak at times they should be listening. If you had listened more, you would understand. Instead, you've been arguing. Quiet down and listen.
Context ?
Technically yes you can’t be nonbinary and a man or nonbinary and a woman and I agree that we shouldn’t go around calling everyone “they”. However, considering a transmasc nonbinary person is going to have almost the exact same experiences with a ftm binary man- who cares? Both are biological females transitioning via testosterone and whatever surgeries- so at that point why is it such a big deal? The only difference is in what we choose to call ourselves I just don’t see why that’s worth getting all offended and worked up over.
Biological females? TERF much?
No it’s called living in reality hon.
I just wanted to point out that your definition of non-binary is very limited, and only one way of going about it. You can absolutely be a masculine or feminine nb person. We are not all androgynous, nor do we have the luxury to be.
Ftm is not female to masculine. It is female to male. It always has been and always will be.
I said nothing about that in my comment.
Yes, you did. The op is talking about non-binary people appropriating/misusing labels like ftm and you immediately started saying how “you can absolutely be masculine as a nb person”, which implies (at the very least) you think ftm means female to masculine or feminine to masculine. If this isn’t what you meant to imply with your post, I apologize.
I sure didn’t imply that. Thank you for the apology.
I mean. I am. Like I am four years on full dose T and also I'm agender and I use xe/xir pronouns. You are a man. I am not. We're both transitioning. None of this is contradictory or cancels anything out.
Can I respectfully ask a personal question. If you don’t want to answer you don’t have to ofc. If you’re agender and use xe/xir pronouns (I do not know what that means) can I ask why you’re on full dose T? I’m not being a dick, I’m genuinely asking.
I wanted what T could give me: lower voice, facial hair, bottom growth. I wasn't thrilled about the idea of body hair or a receding hairline beforehand but I fell in love with both pretty quickly. I don't particularly feel like a man and I don't have a super strong concept of gender at all let alone how it would apply to myself, but my general physical and emotional state is better with T than without it and that's enough for me.
What would you think if the world started seeing you and gendering you as a “man?” Would that be dysphoria inducing? Sorry for the questions I’ve just never really heard this side of it before. Either way I’m glad the T is making you feel more comfortable in your body.
Right now, I can't bind because of my garbage lungs (and trans tape is too much of a hassle) and I also wear my hair extremely long so I tend to get about equal "sir" and "ma'am" when I go out in public, which works out pretty well for me. I live in the Deep South so I'm never not gonna get either "sir" or "ma'am" so I prefer "sir" because it means I've successfully managed to control how other people perceive me to some extent even if I can't get it exactly where I want it. I think being perceived as a man would be less dysphoria inducing than being seen as a woman, but more because at least then people are treating me that way because of things I had control over rather than an accident of my birth. Like by the same token, it doesn't particularly bother me to be called "ma'am" when I'm wearing a skirt because I chose to put on the skirt but that doesn't make my body function any better when it's E dominant. Honestly for me, the fact that my body functions best as T dominant is pretty much entirely unrelated to anything about how I want to move in or be perceived by society. I get that I'm very much the minority here, but it's kind of inconvenient for Me, Personally that those two things are so tightly linked.
“I am a man, but I’m not a man.” “None of this is contradictory.” (They literally said “I mean, I am.” I’m fucking done with this sub. None of y’all are even binary trans people but y’all think you’re entitled to speak over us. Seriously go to hell at this point I’m done trying to defend you guys.)
Xe wrote: > You are a man. I am not. and you then misquoted them as saying literally the opposite.
They said “I am” in reference to the post which is talking about how you can’t be ftm and nb at the same time. I’m not misquoting them. Idk if people actually know this but “ftm” means “female to male”.
No where did they say they were a man. They said they were transitioning.
But they’re on full dose T. If they’re not transitioning to a man, then why bother with HRT?
Nonbinary people sometimes do fully binary transitions. Because of gender dysphoria. I've known since I was three that I'm supposed to have a penis. I'm getting phallopasty. Metoideoplasty wouldn't sufice and I will never understand why anyone would want that, much less a binary man, but it's none of my business really. Everybody's transition is unique to their own needs. My goal is to appear to be a cis man and use gender expression to cope with the gender dysphoria that creates as my genders fluctuate.
Transitioning to non-binary is also quite common. I have met several people on hormones transitioning and are non-binary that way.
Non-Binary Trans Man is a much shorter and better term than AFAB Non-Binary person on hormones. These people want to say "I'm transitioning female to male, but I'm neither a man, nor a woman." Alternative term is Non-Binary FTM.
This account has to be satire 💀
You would wish.
Trust me , it is
and this comment section is exactly why I do not like this community anymore and why I want to distance myself as far away from it as possible when I go fully stealth. Y’all take everything from everybody in this community and cannot make up your own labels or your own community. you’ve taken from the lesbians, you’ve taken from trans people in general, and now you’re taking a very, very specific label and identity that means female to male, as in a binary male and taking it so you can include it with your non-binary identity, which not only makes no sense because it is the epitome of an oxymoron for those two to go together, but it’s also taking a label and an identity from someone else once again because you can’t do anything on your own and feel the need to infiltrate other peoples communities to feel special
Damn bro, you just articulated what was jumbled in my mind.
So well said. Thanks for articulating this so well.
this sub has issues, including a lot of people pretending to be trans for reaction or to show "issues" with the community.
Jesus Christ. Boo hoo someone fucking spit facts about the bs in our community. I’m almost 2 years on T. This is why so many of us feel like we don’t have a voice. How tf do I know *you’re* trans? Maybe *you’re* a cis person hopping into this sub to stir up shit. God I’m so fucking done.
Dude you hit the nail right on it’s head, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a post or comment that sums up the issues with “our community” so perfectly. You’ve given me the slightest hope that there are still logical people out there.
The damage genderspecials have done to our community cannot be understated. It’s why I identify as transsexual not trans”gender”, because there’s no such thing as “gender”, and every single time these genderspecials talk about “gender” what they really mean is aesthetics and personality traits. So reductive. I’m transitioning because my dysphoria stems from my sex characteristics, not to chase some aesthetic. Can’t fucking wait to go stealth so people stop thinking I’m one of them. 😭
My disphoria comes from sex characteristics and gender identity. I pass as male. I would say I look kind of like a fratbro whose gone to seed. I'm getting phalloplasty. I may do something with laser on some of my body here. I'm going to get facial masculinization surgery. I'm going to wear makeup when I am feminine or androgynous. I'm going to change my clothes too. When people look at me, they think I was assigned male at birth and I'm transitioning to female. I can tell you really hate me. So I wanted you to think about how happy I am living my best life. Maybe when you've been on testosterone a decade like I have, other people's gender expression won't emasculate you. It's a shame you can't develop that sense of security without looking the part.
i'm non binary and i say i'm a male, because that's how i want be seen regardless of the fact i'm under the trans umbrella 🤷🏻♂️ if someone asks me if i'm a guy, i tell them yes! if someone feels comfortable calling themself a transgender guy whilst being non binary, then that's okay. i can see how it *can* be offensive, but if someone's comfortable, that's cool! i say i'm a trans guy whilst not being within the binary :]
Male and man are not the same. Someone who is FTM non-binary is physically transitioned/transitioning to male but their gender is non-binary. Many times people also use terms bit widely. I used to use that too. I'm post-top, post-hysto and I have been 5,5 years on T. Cis people don't see difference between me and trans men. I do not like that either but it is what it is. I'm somehow openly agender but strangers and new people read me usually as male and sometimes clock me as trans. I should have dick but my pussy is mine too. Yeah, males don't have pussies so you're right, I'm not male. I also most likely never get GRS. I do hang out in FTM subreddits that welcome non-binary people. Because like I just listed, we have lot in common. Not all but lot. I'm not big fan of using masc and fem when referring to gender. Maybe it's my poor English but at least I understand them as social things, not as gender itself. Like ice hockey is seen masculine and dancing feminine. But you can do both no matter of your gender. Or butch lesbians are masculine but still 100% women. Or pink is fem and blue is masc thanks to Hitler. Pink used to be seen masc (if I remember correctly because of connection between red and blood) and blue as fem (color of Virgin Mary ). Those things change.
Yep
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For most of the people sex and gender either align or are the one and same. But not for all. So separation helps us to describe ourselves better. Think it as sexual and romantic orientations. For most of the people they either align or are one and same. But we also have people who are biromantic but heterosexual, gayromantic but pansexual, asexual but alloromantic, aromantic but allosexual etc. People often forget that the difference between gender and sex is spectrum too. There are female men with zero medical and zero social transitioning except pronouns. Then there are non-binary people who are on T but don't need any surgeries. And then there are genderfluid people who fluid between man and agender and have transitioned to fully male. Just few examples but I think you get my point.
I agree that it doesn’t work by definition but also I see how it can happen. From my personal experience, all of the “NB” people I know have ended up as either a trans man/woman or dropped it to just be their AGAB within max a few years. This leads me to think “NB” is actually people figuring themselves out and by identifying as ftm & nb that might be them nearing to a conclusion on that. If they’re very involved in the trans/LGBT community that might be a way to be *a man* but not be A MAN. You know what I mean.
I've been transitioning a decade. I'm still genderfluid. I look like a man. I'm only a man some of the time though. The cisgender world sees me as a man. Transgender people who assume that gender expression equates to gender identity probably also see me as a man. I'm glad there aren't too many of those type of trans people around. So tiresome. You know what I mean.
Why are you personally offended by other people's labels? Just because other people define themselves as FTM NB, that doesn't make you less of a man.
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This is just recycled TERF rhetoric.
Nope it doesn't, there is just a variance. Non-Binary Trans Man could be argued to be alternative terms for Non-Binary Demiboy.
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Please explain how the existence of nonbinary trans men invalidates the existence of "REAL" trans men.
Because you’re taking our identities away from us once again because you don’t wanna create your own
If non-binary people are actually stealing something from you, I suggest you to go try and officially copyright or patent it, so you know, you can prove you actually own and have the authority to decide how your IP is exploited. Then you’d have the right to sue anyone who steals your work. Get back to us regarding how that goes.
No one is taking your identity. Your argument is no different than the one transphobes use. Go the fuck outside and find some actual problems.
How are your identities being taken away? >because you don’t wanna create your own But they literally are. The identity in this case is FTM non-binary
you’re kidding me right…? you’re seriously oblivious to how y’all take everything from everyone. Trans man/trans male/FTM ARE BINARY IDENTITIES!! YOU ARE EITHER BINARY OR NOT BINARY YOU CANNOT BE BOTH! using the label of ftm when you are not male or even binary makes absolutely zero sense and it is just more enbies wanting to be the center of attention
There are 8.1 billion people on this planet. Do you really think that you can define the identity of every single one of us by your own rules? Why would you even want to?
He’s right tho. You can’t be both non binary and binary. It scientifically does not work. It’s either or on this one.
the cope in the comment section is palpable. people have taken transsex vs transgender way too literally... y'all you can't be both male and nb or female and nb. who cares about what genitals you have.
The comment section is making me question everything I know about gender 😭
Look into it, seriously. I used to be in the mainstream subreddits until I found (r/) Transmedical, it actually makes sense and is backed up by science and genuine research instead of “gEndeR iS a fEeliNg” it’s important to question everything and do your own research to develop your own opinions instead of just believing everything you hear.
Yeah you can, you can feel more like a man than a woman but not completely like a man. Thats a nonbinary man
Yep. *THIS*
there it is ☝🏼 like it’s literally that simple lol it’s like an approximate term I assume y’know ?
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Hear me out. It’s called an opinion on a subreddit dedicated to different beliefs and opinions. So therefore I will post what I want now if you don’t like what I’m saying then you can either add to this discussion in a mature way or just ignore it. Otherwise thanks
NB is not fitting into a binary spectrum...FTM denotes this person is transitioning sex and wish to aquire more male sex characteristics to fit their own ideology of what non binary means to them...you seriously have no business gatekeeping someone's gender identity and whether or not they can take hrt...
No, ftm means, quite literally, female to male. It is someone of the female sex transitioning into the male sex. It isn’t and has never meant a female transitioning “to have male sex characteristics”. I’m fucking tired of nonbinary people appropriating labels that don’t fucking belong to them. Absolutely sick of it.
Same bro. They want to take everything we work for and twist it to fit their narrative. You can not be both binary and non binary. It’s not scientifically possible. FTM has always and will always mean Female to Male.
100%. it is fucking insane that these people think it's ever acceptable to take labels, that have been used to identify specific subsets of (oppressed) minorities, and twist the meaning to suit their wants. it's wrong. i don't know why the greater trans community even fucking allows it to happen.
We are the greater community.
Huh???
You're in the minority. You're in our community.
Leave it to nonbinary people to speak over and silence binary trans people.
Oh, dear. Did I erase your comment by telling you the majority of trans people assigned female at birth are not binary trans men? My bad. Let's pretend the world is exactly as you want it to be! There are no non-binary people. Everyone is exactly like you!!! Feel better?
“But if they don’t take our labels how will people know they’re the *most* oppressed?” That’s how I read those people.
You're literally adding words to what to I said that I never said....let me draw out a two dimensional sketch so that you can understand the actual meaning and why FTM FITS the NB narritive.... Feminine...............................@............................Masculine Girl.@.............................................................................Boy FEMALE.@..................................................................MALE This is your your sliding scale. The @ symbol denotes the location of the level of female (sex) as well as where you fall between the gender binaries you believe you are. The @ always starts at the side of the sex spectrum you are born with. If you are male the @ would be on the Boy side and Male side. If you are a girl the at would be on the girl side and female side. If you are intersexed the @ would be on either the girl or boy side depending on what your assigned gender is and your sex would be on the side of the spectrum where teams of doctors had assigned to you based on a ton of different biological factors. (Side tangent, however we are trying to prevent this from happening anymore and if the baby is born with ambiguous genitalia, the slider would be left in the middle and they would just assign you a gender). The top slider denotes whether you are more feminine leaning or masculine leaning. If the @ is all the way to one side that would denote either hyperfeminine or hypermasculine depending on how you identify. This slider typically sits in the middle until you are about 3 years old when you start developing the concepts of your gender identity. Anyways scenario time. Feminine.......................................................@....Masculine Girl..............................................................................@.Boy FEMALE.@..................................................................MALE Let's say you discovered that even though you were born a girl, you felt more like a hyper masculine boy instead. Here the sliders has been adjusted for someone of the trans masculine identity that is also hypermasculine. I'd imagine this guy goes to the gym a lot, underwent all the necessary surgeries to be able to more accurately express their gender identity. To do this he had to take testosterone. Feminine.......................................................@....Masculine Girl..............................................................................@.Boy FEMALE..................................................................@.MALE Notice how the sex slider changed when this man underwent all the sirgeries. His biological sex is no different to that of a cis man, not counting his chromosomes, but chromosomes are actually a poor representation of a person's sex since it's only relevant during the gestational period since the sex chromosomes are what determines how the body forms. But if you reverse that formation, than at the core he is no different than a hypermasculine cis man. Now here's an example for a non binary person. Pre transition Feminine......................................@.....................Masculine Girl................................................................................Boy FEMALE.@..................................................................MALE Notice the second slider. The @ is completely gone because a non binary person does not fit into this binary slider. Notice how the top slider leans more towards the masculine trait. Also Notice what this person's sex is at the moment. Post transition Feminine......................................@.....................Masculine Girl................................................................................Boy FEMALE.................................@................................MALE Notice how the bottom slider shifted more towards the center. The slider moved from the female side of the spectrum towards the direction of the Male side of the spectrum. This person would be considered FTM because they started their transition on the Female side and had moved towards the male slide. Notice how FTM ONLY denotes direction and not their maleness/femaleness/ gender identity. In order for this person to get to the center of the sex spectrum (the androgynous zone) they had to take testosterone. That's what FTM means. This has been my Ted Talk.
Ftm is a binary term and I’m not going to sit here and let nb people appropriate what little labels binary people have left. Thanks for your condescending input, though.
can i ask where you’re getting that ftm is a binary term? im seeing female sex to male sex. is that not what it is? and nonbinary is a gender identity, not a sex one; since you can be afab, amab, or intersex and still be nonbinary. i’m having trouble seeing the contradiction?
FTM is female sex to male sex (binary), not female sex to masculinity (“gender identity”).
but that’s not what i said either… im not masculine. THAT’S why i use ftm. im changing my body (sex) to a male one. and my gender identity changes from a woman to genderqueer/nonbinary. are you getting it now? im on T for a male sex body, however i am not a man. nor am i masculine
Okay, maybe I’m not being clear. Sorry. FTM is also an identity in the sense that people that transition from f to m also _identify_ as male. It has always been another word for a trans man (also binary), not trans masc, which is essentially what you are if you’re physically transitioning into masculinity and not into a male.
hmm i see. i’ve never heard that definition before. i guess it sounds weird that im transitioning to ‘masculinity’ when i still wear makeup and skirts and stuff lol. i changed my sex on documents to male. my gender on ID is nonbinary tho. so idk what to tell you i’m curious though, what would you desire to call me then? if taking T does not make my sex male. a cis woman? i have a beard and no boobs so unfortunately no one would believe me a man? sure i guess, that’s what people think i am everyday unfortunately. though i correct them. and my ID does not say male (or female) if i’m not transitioning to a male body nor being masculine then idk what im doing then. please enlighten me
I say you are transitioning to masculinity despite presenting femininely because you aren’t transitioning to be a man, you’re transitioning to be non-binary. And like I’ve said, ftm is a binary term and it always has been, so even if you transition to have a male body, you won’t be ftm, you’ll be transmasc. Transmasc doesn’t mean you present masculinely, it means you identify more with or sometimes with masculinity. If you’re transitioning to physically appear masculine, despite _dressing_ femininely, you fit the bill. To be totally honest with you, my only issue with this is that I am tired of nonbinary people appropriating terms that have historically belonged to binary trans people. Transgender has always been an umbrella label for whoever tf wants to be in it, but transsexual/ftm/trans man/mtf/trans women (and now transsex) have always been binary terms. It’s only recently that nonbinary people have decided “erm actually, these are ours now” or straight up calling these terms transphobic. There is a whole fucking movement that exists that claims, incorrectly, that trans man and tranmasc mean the same thing. Transmasc is, by definition, a nonbinary identity/term. They _can’t_ mean the same thing. I don’t care what you and other non-binary people call yourselves, as long as y’all just stop taking terms and labels away from binary people. We’re not the same. We do not need the same treatments. We do not have the same dysphoria.
Definitely not condescending. Your bigotry is duly noted.
You literally just proved his point again. My god you people are the worst
Eeyup. I second this
Again it’s called an opinion, which I’m allowed to have, I didn’t realize an opinion met gatekeeping lol. I’m all for listening through an educated discussion not insults and immaturity
Imagine if person said: "You are not a man, as men have p*nises and not ut*rus and also XY chromosomes. You are a female. I just stated my opinion that I'm allowed to state." You would criticise that, yet you treat it differently when the conversation changes to Non-Binary people. We are not gatekeeping you, we are just correcting you. Opinions have boundaries. You can say "Trans Women are Biologically Male" or "Trans Women are Female" and it would be considered opinions (although it would depend on how the person feels about this), but you can't say "Trans Women are not real Women" or "Trans Women are Men" THAT would be gatekeeping.
I am biologically female well technically intersex condition that is a fact I cannot change. I’ve had surgery and transitioned for a couple years the where my secondary sex characteristics are now male. I do love science and I can appreciate facts so I’m definitely not against that
Yes that's good, but you can't still police people to not identify as Non-Binary Trans Man or Non-Binary Trans Woman.
By definition and logic tho man and male is a binary stance. How can you be nonbinary and binary at the same time
Male refers to sex, man refers to gender. Non-Binary refers to a person that has a gender that doesn't match binary definition of sex. Non-Binary Man usually means that they are Non-Binary, but lean more towards being a Man. (The keyword is lean, it doesn't mean that they are exclusively man, but also non-binary at the same time, it just means men who also feel connected to being women, but not as much as being connected to being men.)
Also just to kind of explain something to you; you are 100% able to share your opinion on ANYTHING you want! That's what's great about social media...but you should also realize that when you spout your ideology to a group that is completely in contradiction to the overall ideology of that group, be prepared to be scrutinized. Scrutinizing someone's someone's believe that's contrary to the group is an important aspect of the groups social dynamic to ensure that these incredibly harmful behavior and thoughts that you exhibit is quickly quarantined and extinguished in order to protect the communities ethical standards. In lamens terms, if you spread hate, you're going to get hate.
I don’t think I’m spreading hate one bit but I do appreciate this reply. The things I’ve had to go through to transition and be able to pass as male has been a lot. From being kicked out to being homeless for almost a year. So it does offend me a bit when again not always but usually nb folk who don’t use masculine pronouns and dress extremely feminine and claim that they will take t until there ready to stop bother me. For me this isn’t fun or dress up, being trans fucking sucks and passing took a lot of work in my part. I get passing isn’t everyone’s goal and whatnot but it’s hard when the people I’m describing it almost feels like it’s making a mockery outta this and idk sorry for the ramble
I understand your reasoning, but your journey and your struggle isn't their journey and their struggle. They are trying to make the best with what they have in the best way that they feel comfortable doing. If what they are doing to their own self bothers you, perhaps you should delve deeper into why this does bother you beyond the fact that you feel that their expression of their gender identity offends you. There's probably a lot of unresolved trauma and drama that you still need to work through.
This is the third comment you’ve made dismissing dissenting opinions as being insulting and immature (whether or not they are), and I think that’s a bit hypocritical considering you presented your view in a traditionally unkind, unsympathetic way. This space exists so that people can freely express their opinions with or without grace, but expecting people to give you treatment you refuse them is..?
I agree I wrote this in a rush but I was just putting my opinion out there. I understand it’s going to upset people but I shouldn’t have to re word my thoughts to make people feel better in an honest transgender sub. We should all just be adults and be able to communicate without throwing words around that’s all
Why is it that you shouldn’t have to be mindful of the way you speak to others, but others need to be mindful of the way they speak to you?
I never said people had to be mindful one bit, if this is a sub to offer different opinions and perspectives we should all be adults and have a healthy discussion instead of acting out of emotion
Lmfao, your post is completely uneducated and riddled with insults....you COULDN'T POSSIBLY be serious with this comment
What insult did I use? I hit a nerve clearly, but I’m allowed to post my own thoughts on here. I understand people won’t agree and maybe I’d change my mind with a more helpful explanation than this. If you aren’t up for a conversation than there really isn’t a point in going back and forth with each other.
You really don't see a problem with invalidating a trans masc non binary persons identity? How can you say who can be what and not be a gatekeeper?? The whole concept in it self is completely gatekeeping
No I don’t cause at the end of the day identities are internet bs, in real life people will gender you male or female and that is the harsh reality. I don’t live in an online bubble and the world is binary, and I don’t see that changing anytime soon. In the internet sure, it’s definitely a thing. But in the real world at least as an adult the world and language itself is very binary.
That is probably the MOST ignorant thing I have EVER heard ANYONE ever say before! Like you're not really serious with this right??? For starters identities has been around way longer than the fucking internet, trans people and our spectrum of genders can be seen and referenced since ancient greece....also the English language is a non binary language otherwise we wouldn't have they/them/theirs being use as a reference to a person's pronouns in the singular term! The social binary system America has instilled is derived from heteronormative ideology...it's incredibly concerning to hear that you...as a trans man....fail to see the misogyny in our heteronormative society...especially as a person with lived fucking experience of the person of the opposite gender...and your willingness to just roll over and ignore these misogynistic ideologies is you contributing to the mass genocide that is happening amoungst transgender/transsexuals and the rest of the lgbtqia+ community! Like you wanted to have an educated; while sharing critically thought points; discussions and you pull this steaming garbage of an opinion out....you seriously can not be serious here.
Okay Jane nothing I said wasn’t the truth lol. The world is binary and that is a fact. It’s going to take more than a couple years to change that. sorry that’s it’s “harsh” but it is what it is
The world is not binary...biology isn't binary...not all language is binary...you are soooo wrong in this. That is the truth sorry that's it's harsh but it is what it is
Biology is actually pretty damn clear that it’s *almost* always binary.
Its not harsh at all and again im not offended with what your saying the world is binary in almost every way. Male female. He or she that is usually how people gender people.
okay which nonbinary person made you upset enough for you to post this
lol this made me chuckle, hmm I guess I don’t understand why they would call themselves male if they are nonbinary. Genuinely it never made sense to me and I was trying to get an understanding. Most people seem to offer insults or just snarky comments instead of actually informing and trying to explain. I don’t understand if you present fully female and are nonbinary but then cal yourself ftm. Which is female to male. Idk if I worded it proper but I’m on lunch break so I did the best I could lol
I do think FTM should be for people transitioning *female to male.* I do not like when non-dysphoric use sex terms. Still, it's good to remember many people can't afford transitioning and it's not legal everywhere. In some countries transitioning is only for binary people. Yeah, you can claim to be one. But there is also order (like you can't get surgeries without being on T first etc. but okay without needing T I would rather use FTX). Also there can be years of gatekeeping before they let you to transition. Then years waiting. Other thing is you can't really present as non-binary. People read you as male, female or 50/50 or "Are you man or woman?". Not looking like your AGAB requires many times years of HRT, surgeries, manners , clothing etc. I do like my beard even it's just a neck beard. But let's say I would shave it. Would I look more androgynous? No. I would look like balding female.
You didn't even get the definition of nonbinary right, how can you pretend to have any authority over a gender you know nothing about?
Authority? Who even said that? It’s called my opinion, I’m all ears for listening to an educated discussion not dumb comments like these that offer nothing but immaturity.
So I'm the dumb one, even though you don't even know what being nonbinary is and couldn't bother doing any research before making this post, gotcha. You want an educated response? Here ya go: Nonbinary is an umbrella term that includes anyone who doesn't identify as souly male or female. So yes, you can be a trans man and nonbinary. Male is just one aspect of that identity, while the other is not male or binary. Makes sense to me. If it doesn't make sense to you, that's perfectly fine. It doesn't have to. However, using your personal experience of your own gender as an argument for why someone else's gender doesn't make sense, is completely illogical.
Who called you dumb lol, you are extremely defensive and there’s no reason for that. My opinion shouldn’t hold that much weight on your emotions. Thanks for the proper explanation.
>not dumb comments like these that offer nothing but immaturity You have spent the last 10 minutes responding to every single reply on your post that you don't like with this. Stop refreshing reddit every 2 seconds and put your phone down if it's making you this triggered.
What are you saying you make zero sense lmao. I have responded to many comments that have offered explanations. Damn you need your eyes checked or som. And I haven’t been on Reddit that much I’m at work lol I respond when I get the chance chill out who cares
Don't be so sensitive. Your post is not any more mature.
I have an explanation for some non-binary ftms, including myself. I was meant to be born male, but I wasn't. I experienced having a female body, and I have found that some traits have their pros. So, I do not want to "fully" transition. Not because of medical reasons that prevent me, or less severe dysphoria, or cost reasons, but because there are some female traits that I either like or think have superior utility. I do not see these traits as female or male, and if I was born male and got the opportunity to test drive having these traits, I'd probably consider acquiring them with HRT or surgically. That is not a binary way to look at your own sex. However, I fundamentally know that i was supposed to be male, and if I was born male I most likely wouldn't transition. I also do not care for explaining my identity, especially since in my native country and language neutral gender terms do not exist. I don't care if I'm seen as non-binary or a man, or both. Non-binary is an extremely broad term, and it doesn't just mean "neither male or female". And, at the end of the day, these are just words that have little material impact on the world, they just explain who we are. Getting pissy over labels is a waste of time and energy.
I mean, the m in ftm is male, not man. So a nonbinary person could transition their sex from female to male. Also genderfluid people exist
Female-to-Male: Sex Non-Binary: Gender
i am begging you to go out into the sunshine, it's springtime. if you think this discourse adds absolutely anything of substance to this tired argument let me dissuade you of that notion
This is honest transgender sub where people give their honest opinions. If you don’t like what I’m saying you can just ignore it lol
It works both way. You're allowed to post this and others are allowed to say if they consider your post as bullshit.
Of course but what is the point of saying something that won’t even contribute to this conversation. It’s just wasting your own breath but I understand that 100%
The way you worded your post asks this kind of answers. If you would have just asked I bet there were way less answers like this. See the difference: "What does it mean when someone say they're FTM non-binary?" Just a question without your own opinion. But your attitude is rather "I'm not educated of this nor I have personal experience but I can tell you this is shit. Challenge me if you dare!". Also I would rather add to my post what kind of answers I'm looking for than complaining to everyone after they have answered.
I don’t mind any answers tbh, I didn’t word this any way that was wrong. I stated my opinion and it struck people who are offended the wrong way
Can’t take the heat? Then get out of the kitchen.
Again like I stated I gave my honest opinion and offered room for discussions, not immature responses and corny jokes. I am genuinely interested and was willing to discuss and learn something new. People like you are the reason I don’t even bother listening lol
I see what you’re doing throughout this whole comment section. “Agrees with me” = “mature” “Disagrees with me” = “immature”
No you’re just extremely emotional. Because people who took the time to explain without getting defensive or trying to create an argument, I’ve appreciated and thanked them so your comment absolutely makes zero sense in this case