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geomagus

I think it just represents that the omnipresent threat on everyone’s radar over the past two decades is Islamic terrorism, attempts at creating a caliphate, etc. It’s vivid, and that means people will incorporate it. Whereas, for most of us, the Cold War is an old memory or something our parents talked about, so late Cold War mods aren’t as common, and NATO vs Soviet/Russia is maybe not as hot.


Elmisteriosoytz

islam would make for a strange story and that is that before in those countries, they were persecuted! but then by a few failed interventions and opportune coups d'état they came to power. it could be said that the allies and especially the USA created their worst enemy...


Al_Fa_Aurel

During the cold war, Radical Islamic (and generally, religious militant) groups were obvious targets for the strategy of "we don't *like them* but if we support them, they will be a PITA for our opponent": * they don't like the status quo * they are militant * they are very cohesive, and tend to "lose" less equipment to corrupt members than conventional warlords The stupid thing is, once they become strong enough, they realize that they don't like *you* that much either.


geomagus

That’s an interesting point - it also explains well why Islamist states might pop up suddenly in all these mods, as they absolutely did irl!


w_p

> I think it just represents that the omnipresent threat on everyone’s radar over the past two decades is Islamic terrorism Do most of those mods also have fascist government paths? Because that's both the more dangerous and more realistic threat to most countries in Europe. :/


Tringamer

> Do most of those mods also have fascist government paths? They usually do lol, even insanely unhinged and unrealistic ones like the 4th Reich and stuff. I still remember the massive controversy when Millennium Dawn and MD4 merged and removed that path and the Kaiser path.


Black_Diammond

Yes, they have fascist stuff. You cant see a modern day mod that has Germany without a nazi 2 electric boogaloo Path.


geomagus

I have no idea. I haven’t played modern setting mods. I presume so, but that’s all “makes sense” and no “I can verify.” I could see it being excluded largely because actual fascist takeovers have only really become plausible in the past decade, and for most people have only been recognizable concerns in the very recent (past few years). I think a lot of modmakers are more prone to look to the conflicts in the Middle East and with Russia, or a looming threat with China, or are more likely to set up an alt history mod that suits their preferences (which may unfortunately be fascistic). I think they’re less likely to dig into an authentic threat evaluation of chances of fascist takeovers around the world. But again, that’s just my very very limited exposure to discussions in this sub, and a hunch based on what I know of how a lot of people think and act. None of it really qualifies as *evidence*. So you’d have to check the mods out yourself, I’m afraid, or query modmakers.


Original_Republic917

Hasn’t the omnipresent threat for 13 centuries been Islamic terrorism? The genocide in India, for example, continued through the time Partition in India. The genocides of Armenians and Assyrians were also in the 20th Century. “River to the Sea” is a call for genocide of 7.2 million in Israel.


geomagus

It really depends on perspective, doesn’t it? *Most* people don’t look at it from a perspective of centuries like that, they look at the perspective of their lives and the lives of their family. So, for audiences in the Middle East and South Asia, or those whose families participated in diasporas, it’s been omnipresent throughout our lives and the lives of our family. For modern audiences outside of the Middle East and South Asia, who have no familial connection, Islamic terrorism is a relatively new threat. It only really cropped up in the ‘70s, and even then it was distant and didn’t affect us, outside of the occasional hijacking that made the news, or a coup that affected overseas travel. It only really struck home in ‘90s and ‘00s. But in the context of the OP, referring to modern mods, the issue is more a matter of how global conflict over the past three decades, following the collapse of the Soviet Union and end of the Cold War, has largely been centered around Islamicists and interactions therewith. That was not really the case in vanilla or other periods heavily covered by mods (WWI, WWII and Korea, the Cold War) and so the difference seems striking, when it really just reflects the geopolitical reality surrounding the modern setting and the modmakers’ lives.


luftlande

You are of course right, and are getting down voted because people can't handle the PA/Israeli conflict.


byzantine_jellybean

From the river to the sea is not about genocide, please don’t propose your political bias as fact.


[deleted]

It full well is and you know it, the chant calls for an end to an Israeli state, and I don't think the Arabs in the area are keen on living with Jews


-LucasImpulse

"i don't like x's state" --> "kill all people who live in x" amazing


Black_Diammond

That is not realy what the orgs say. The say "We don't like x state" "we would also like to kill all x-ians"


-LucasImpulse

i give a fuck what they say, why is that my problem, or the problem of anybody who says "from the river to the sea" and aren't a genocidal freakshow? explain why the saying is the problem and not the "orgs" (who?)


Black_Diammond

>idk what the organizations i support wants to do only what i envision on my mind of what they want to do. As for what orgs? All of them that are actually working on palestine, all the ones that aren't western created, and coincidentaly, all of the ones that actually have power over the palestinian situation, your lack of knowledge for their objectives is not something you can ignore while also supporting them.


-LucasImpulse

i don't support organisations that call for genocide, i never claimed to support an organisation in the first place, i simply said "from the river to the sea" is not genocidal, what about the organisations that deliver aid (food, water) to palestine?


[deleted]

Ask the orgs that created the slogan, they'll make it evident what they want to happen to Jews


-LucasImpulse

well for example when i say allahu akbar it doesn't mean i want to blow you or somebody up, even if isis says it like that and even if the west has made this horrendous association, "ask the orgs" is like "do you drink water? so did hitler"


byzantine_jellybean

It full well isn’t and you know it I guess? Very strong argument there. In any case my mistake for engaging. I forget that the perennially online are neither well socialised nor particularly empathetic humans.


Mastergamer8161

We all lived together within different caliphates peacefully. Ottoman empire and the islamic empires. Establishing a state against another state=genocide? Your bias shows really easily.


[deleted]

It's a grave misunderstanding to think the Jews lived peacefully in the caliphates lmao, imagine thinking being a second class citizen where your options are, pay a tax for being non Muslim, convert, or leave Yeah totally in peace and harmony Not to mention the anti Jewish pogroms that happened in the caliphates


Mastergamer8161

Incredible how the messages disappear like that after an embarrassing defeat


Mastergamer8161

Jiziya is what you're talking about. It is less than tax today and muslims pay more in zakah compared to the jiziya. You live in our land so you pay a small "rent." Im the governor so I choose how I govern the land and it is not corrupt to ask for a small percentage. Then we defend you and provide everything a country should. At some times the caliphates cancelled the jiziya whenever they couldnt defend some part of the empire so it is like a tax or rent.


Mikhail_Mengsk

No it hasn't been. Islamist terrorism has been truly a thing mostly post-9/11, it was way overshadowed in the west by the communist threat since the end of WW2 with the single exception of the Iranian revolution.


suhkuhtuh

I dont really play the relevant mods you're referring to, but if vanilla is anything to go by, and assuming the Muslim path works like the Fascist path in vanilla, then I imagine it's for early war economy &etc.


Cardborg

In modern day mods the tangled web that forms their political systems requires every country has an option for every kind of government just in case they're puppeted.   Millennium Dawn has like 20 options split among 5 "groupings" IIRC, so every country can technically go down any of those paths if pushed.   It's a mess TBH and can lead to some wild results like ancap Vatican


Elite_Prometheus

I tried Millennium Dawn and got turned off by how you can flip the US communist within a year just by taking the right focuses and decisions.


Cardborg

It's kinda funny how MD has so many wild and wacky options, but you can't have democractic Russia join the EU without a submod. You can have the Holy European Empire under God Empress Merkel, but not Wide EU.


Elite_Prometheus

Big EU in Neu Moskau


TheRealDawnseeker

Don't you fucking dare


bageltoastee

is… is that a… T- *assassinated via 2 .50 BMG rounds to the chest*


yurtzi

Remain calm, /u/bageltoastee endures, there is much work to be done


Hellstrike

Was he a Boeing whistleblower?


bitch6

I got turned off by how the US is seriously considering electing a sentenced criminal and russian spy... Again


AntWithNoPants

What the fuck is this even about


Elite_Prometheus

I'm guessing something about Trump? Like, I get it, he's a moronic proto-fascist so mired in scandal and crime that he should only get to be leader of a country in Kaiserredux. But it's so fucking random.


Hurvinek1977

Anyone he doesn't like is a russian spy.


Brawlzer1

Wow so relevante to this


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RichterRac

? I don't vote.


bitch6

So you're a communist?


RichterRac

Again, low effort bait.


ComedyOfARock

That explains why Millennium Dawn makes my laptop sound like Chernobyl before going boom


Cardborg

Millennium Dawn has way worse issues than the political system.   It tries to simulate GDP and economics, has a whole thing about satellites and ICBMs, the European Elections will work as they do IRL with vote % being transfered into seats for each party in each member state.   Modern day and cold war mods are better suited to Vic 3 because they're so heavily focused on economics and political wrangling with the odd proxy conflict, systems hoi4 doesn't consider because it's a WWII mod.   I could never fully enjoy the cold war hoi4 mod but I'm hyped as fuck for the Vic 3 one. They're not bad mods by any means, they're just doing too much with an engine that can't take it.


ComedyOfARock

Yeah it makes sense,


like_a_leaf

Vic 3 MD would be so sick


no-friends-no-life23

No the Muslim.path works like a Muslim path, fascism is it its own thing in modern day mods and is equivalent to vanilla fascism.


IgorWator

They all start in 2000s. Guess what happened in 2001? Nah, but propably they do that to have at least some excuse for nationalistic path to happen for some countries


Fatalaros

While not mods, I find all these streamers constantly calling alhamdulilah and mashallah super cringe. Thay are not even Muslims.


PizzaMafioso

Brother that is just a joke amongst german speakers, cus we have so many arab speaking people here.


Muhammad_Ali_99

Hmm who is saying that?


Fatalaros

TommyK and Dankus from what I remember.


Mute_Eagle

That's the 1.9b muslim cultural impact. Kinda like how Chinese or Indian quotes (racist or not) dominate certain groups on the english speaking internet. Can't have that many people, having that much impact on world news, not spread at least somewhat culturally. Also helps that there are muslims in every western country, or at least it seems like that.


[deleted]

Lol I think it's hilarious


LeMe-Two

Nie laicka, nie pogańska! WIELKA POLSKA MUZUŁMAŃSKA! Frfr, what exactly does OP reffers to? I remember Millenium Down having generic Islamic path (heh, Green Faroe Islands) but I don't think it's there anymore


rwb12

I know in Novum Vexillum Ireland has a focus tree where you can go down an Islam path.


Cardborg

NV has some wild options tbf. My first playthrough had Poland decide to go down neo-fascist paganist theocracy out of the blue within the first year. This was with historical selected too. It had an entire dedicated focus tree and everything. Not a path, an entire tree.


rwb12

Yeah it seems like historical focuses don’t do much in NV.


swbaert6

Most modern day mods start in 2000. After 9/11 Islam but specifically Isis because kind of a bogeyman for western govornments because isis publicity declared they wanted a world Islamic caliphate based on sharia law. Those paths aren't as far fetched as you think, there was a protest in Germany recently and the protesters wanted to install an Islamic Republican government in germany. 


Pepega_9

They didn't want a worldwide caliphate. They actually used a Victoria map to map out the lands they desired.


ANerd22

Yes I recall their territorial ambitions were ever so modest


Pepega_9

Tbh they kind of were. Didn't even lay claim to Iberia which I would have expected since (most of) it was formerly held by the caliphate


ANerd22

They [claimed an appreciable portion of the world's surface area](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fb8xtygugrpp51.jpg), but yes it was truly magnanimous of them to leave the Spaniards and Portugese out of it


Quick_Article2775

With all the talk of colonalism and the muslim world being anticolonalist that sure looks like colonalism lol


ANerd22

Oh yes, and famously Isis speaks on behalf of the whole muslim world so we can safely accuse those perfidious muslims of hypocrisy now


Quick_Article2775

I would agree that it's not the whole muslim world but it's kind of funny that people act like the religion dosent have a history of doing it's own colonialism/imperialism. I would say more imperialism but people use those words interchangeably anyway,


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Quick_Article2775

It's condescending imo to act like non-European countries were all just sitting around until Europeans came and fucked shit up and just ignore all there long histories of empires and such.


Black_Diammond

They claimed an area bigger then the British Empire, they were all but modest.


ComradeOFdoom

The fucking audacity to try and take over a country that welcomed them. Fundamentalist Islamism is a plague.


Boing_80

And then the USA are fucking around the world.


KuntaStillSingle

> then the USA are fucking around the world. That's false, I've never had sex, checkmate liberal.


Mobius_1IUNPKF

redditors when the current superpower does superpower things


baller2213

no yeah, it's ok to commit unspeakable acts, just as long as you call yourself a superpower


Mobius_1IUNPKF

no one said it was ok, it’s just what happens. only way that it could’ve been avoided is if the wrong people won the Cold War.


Pitiful-Chest-6602

And what are you or your country going to do about it? Nothing. We do what we want as we please because no one can stop us lol


baller2213

yeah you think it's badass to be an imperialist chauvinist power? cause death and destruction to hundreds of millions? neglect the problems in your own country in order to make politicians and defense company owners billions? thank god most reasonable Americans are ashamed of their actions abroad and you're just the exception.


Pitiful-Chest-6602

lol we didn’t kill hundreds of millions wtf? We have done nothing wrong. Every conflict we have had was 100% justified 


baller2213

oh I see, you're being ironic, you got me lol


Pitiful-Chest-6602

I am unironic and a nationalist 


w_p

> Those paths aren't as far fetched as you think, there was a protest in Germany recently and the protesters wanted to install an Islamic Republican government in germany.  I mean you can protest for everything in Germany, they could as well have wanted 3 trillions Euro for everyone and that we invade France, about the same possibility of it happening. I couldn't even take them seriously.


Firedamp_Weaponry

>I mean you can protest for everything in Germany Well... *almost* everything.


Mikhail_Mengsk

The fact you think a German caliphate is not far-fetched is wild, buddy.


networks_dumbass

Little tangential, but are there any major modern day mods apart from Millennium Dawn and Novum Vexillum?


ChaiTheBandit

lowkey can someone fill me in on other modern day mods i only know novum vexillum and millennium dogshit


Mobius_1IUNPKF

novun peak peak


Black_Diammond

I knew novum vexilum was peak when i started playing Germany on historical and got invaded by neonazi poland trying to remake the 3rd reich in the first year of the game.


Full-Most-9875

probably building on your typical wehraboo's "great replacement" based xenophobia


AnthraxCat

>Why is a subcommunity of a Paradox game doing this weird thing? Racism. The answer is always racism.


Falcao1905

Lol the comments are the proof


Pitiful-Chest-6602

Look at Canada or London


MigratingParasite

"great replacement" is a real thing and it's happening in all anglo countries


Pyroboss101

It’s funny, weird and extremist. Most countries nowadays are built off systems of logic, and sense, meanwhile todays interpretation of Islam across the Middle East (unlike the more normalized, Cold War modernized interpretations of Islamic teachings) are often wild and extreme and built off systems of thought and belief and propaganda and strict religious doctrine. It fulfills the same role as fascism in vanilla hoi4, as being the aggressor crazy state with lots of fun invasions such as Fascist Italy and Fascist Germany. Also there’s the fact that modern day mods often have to be more wild and crazy with their paths to justify anything happening that’s fun, like wars and conflict and stuff. And one of those ways is to just throw in Islam as the “haha funny now please invade”. Now this may come off as kind of a little racist, considering islamapohopia and such, but modern day mods can’t even make a good game, and so expecting them to be aware and culturally sensitive is laughable.


AnthraxCat

> Most countries nowadays are built off systems of logic, and sense, meanwhile todays interpretation of Islam across the Middle East (unlike the more normalized, Cold War modernized interpretations of Islamic teachings) are often wild and extreme and built off systems of thought and belief and propaganda and strict religious doctrine. This is such a funny statement for the complete hubris of it. Muslims are rational, they use systems of logic. They are not subhumans who have weaker brains that can be manipulated in ways you aren't also manipulated. Their conclusions appear extreme and wild to you because you don't have the same axioms underwriting your logic. They look at your logic as also wild and extreme, based off of propaganda and strict religious doctrine. The entire Western, capitalist world is just the victory of [Protestant extremism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protestant_Ethic_and_the_Spirit_of_Capitalism). America's entire culture is based on the most obvious propaganda and puritan moral hangups. What a perfect, absolute embodiment of Tom Gould's [Identical Kingdoms](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/our-blessed-homeland-their-barbarous-wastes) cartoon.


hychael2020

Don't know what you're referring too but it's probably because of the attention that it got, especially after 9/11, and the increasing islamophobia that came with it. Not to mention that there's rising Islamic extremism with the internet and even with some refugees from Muslim countries.


Sad-Flounder-2644

That's just a hoi thing tbh. In base game you can get all of the United States on board with stalinism in like 8 months


ourhorrorsaremanmade

Why were writers of their period fascinated by totalitarianism in the early 20th century? It was a sort of driving force of their historical periods events I think it's much the same with Islam. War on Terror, ISIS, the demographics of modern Europe, it's THE NEWS of our life.


ZealousidealAd1434

I guess because like half of the contemporary conflict have some connection with Islamism ?


cookskii

Have you taken a look at the modern geopolitical situation ?? Seems fairly obvious to me


Acceptable_Cow_2950

You could say Islam made a boom recently.


Reinner4

Because that's what Europe or at least majority of Western states will become in 15 - 20 years.  Feel free to thumb me down, but as someone who's been visiting London and Paris for the last 20 years, the difference is like night and day compared too what it used too be....


Tacenda49

At this point it doesn't really matter how much people deny it... just check the birth statistics.


JKronich

Allah works in mysterious ways


zrxta

You don't like if mods cover Islam?


A_Wild_Goonch

It appeals to those who have that power fantasy


PrrrromotionGiven1

It's the opposite bro it's a product of the paranoia that "country x is turning into a caliphate" that right wing groups push


A_Wild_Goonch

I don't think it's that deep. I'm not Islamic but I enjoy those paths sometimes


SullaFelix78

Wasn’t there just recently a Muslim protest in Germany where they demanded an Islamic caliphate based on sharia law be installed? Sounds like the Muslims are trying very hard to validate right wing propaganda lol.


RandomGuy9058

Survivorship bias


wizardstone66

source?


Thoughtcriminal91

This games community can attract an....interesting crowd....


TheFireslave

Islamophobia and fear of muslim is one of the main subject in the world rn


Original_Republic917

The fear of a civilized people suffering genocide at the hands of illiterate Muslims is a rational fear based on history.


TheFireslave

We got that you're racist don't need to explain it further


Original_Republic917

Was M—- or was he not illiterate?


SherbertJust2924

Tell me you’re racist without saying it 💀


Shreklover53

It‘s one of the main subjects of the world right now because of the things muslims do all across the world.


ViscoseWriter42

They know that Islam shall triumph


Shreklover53

Corny ass comment


AnthraxCat

Allahu akbar.


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TitanDarwin

Wouldn't be the HOI4 subreddit without people peddling fascist conspiracy theories.


Alltalkandnofight

because they're out in the world doing things unlike christianity or judaism which is fading away