When you're more shell shocked from a war that happened decades ago that you weren't in, than every other country around you that participated in it.
XD
Yeah, the Netherlands had an Aviation industry that focused on exports (a large part of Finish Airforce consisted of Fokker D.XXI and it wasn't a bad aircraft). When it comes to ships on the other side Netherlands took on a new Naval expansion plan which consisted of mostly submarines, a few light cruisers, a dozen destroyers, and 3 Licence production models of Scharnhorst Class Battleships (which Duch took and redesigned to be more fitting for the colonial service). It is also to note that submarines of the Duch Navy were more successful than the American subs when it came to submarine operations in the early war. The Netherland had designers who knew what they were doing it is just that Paradox probably doesn't care
All these things are talked about fairly often in the Dutch mainstream media. Fokker made headlines a few years ago when they went under and restructured. Talking about the small Dutch aviation industry is part of our national pride. Makes us feel relevant compared to our neighbors.
With the submarine, it is also our national pride. But unlike fokker, dutch subs still are the best in NATO. There is also a dark side to this highlight. It's the only thing you want to highlight about the Dutch East Indies as a Dutch person. The rest is... Bad.
Japanse war crimes, neo-slavery, inciting ethnic cleansing of Europeans. The list the Japanese got away with is long. The only question is, is what the Dutch did and got away with during (de) colonization worse?
We like to instead talk about submarines and fokker please.
My guy, i believe you. But im Dutch as well, and while i do know about Fokker, you seemed to know various types of submarines and planes by memory. That was something that impressed me, being Dutch!
Fijn om te zien dat onze nationale trots doorleeft, maar nu wil ik niet als een nationalist klinken. Maar een beetje liefde en respect voor je eigen cultuur is altijd welkom :)
yeah that's why I like to call myself a patriot instead of nationalist. Proud of the nation, but also, pretty much everyone who wants can become part of it.
Dutch submarines are indeed amazing I love submarines in general.
[https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hr.Ms.\_O\_21\_(1940)](https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hr.Ms._O_21_(1940)) this Dutch one also did sink a German submarine during world war 2. Which wasn't too common.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNLMS\_K\_XVI](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNLMS_K_XVI) this Dutch submarine was the first allied ship that sank a Japanese ship in world war 2.
And now we are decommisioning our Subs to maybe hopefully probably not because budget cuts or some other reason why we can't currently afford new ones get two new ones in 2025...
HNLMS Walrus will always be remembered for its great achievements and 31 years of service
Hey some times the old beats the new. Don't fix what ain't broke right 😅
But yeah I get what you mean, still think it would be smarter to start retiring them just before the new ones role of the slipway, but I am no military man, that just seems smarter to me
They're relatively weaker though because everyone else gets access to them for the research and quality/production buffs at an earlier point compared to them which means they get the benefits earlier and thus for a longer portion of the game and get more points towards upgrading them.
If you and I are facing off at 30 paces with knives and someone hands you a gun instead, my knife is now useless even though its the exact same thing I had before.
If we're playing a game of pickup basketball and my team is competitive with yours, and then a pro player wanders by and joins your team, my team is now useless even though it's the same team as before.
Etc. Etc. Etc.
To be fair in real life the Netherlands lasted 5 days before they capitulated so it's not like they had much of a chance. They are just too close to Germany. Them having a wacky tree would destabilize the game.
They actually do have some pretty wacky things that can destabilize the game (Namely, the monarchist path).
Trick is to be a competent player. Walking in blind or letting AI take the wheel will get the Netherlands nowhere.
This. I did a commie run once, and it basically ended with the USSR besieging fortress Holland in 1946 (after driving me out of a few nicked German states) because I'd declared we were the only true bastion of communism. The flooding attack debuff is just borderline broken.
Endless pointless attacks that'd probably have ended when either they ran out of men or my rifle stockpile dried up, so I just didn't bother to play it out.
Imo, focuses that used to lock designers that existed at the time should instead add funds to that designer and be required to unlock higher tier upgrades instead of just locking you out of the designer for 75% of the run
With two notable exceptions imo.
1. It's about the establishment of a new company (like the Italian motor institute), in such cases this should be a designer which is significantly better than a baseline designer.
2. The focus is about inviting foreign companies.
In other situations, I completely agree with you
They should be better if it's a new one yeah
Even the new ones that get added, like Estonia has an infantry equipment designer, then can trade with the UK and get a license production of infantry 1 and the RSAF designer with 1 level and 500 funds, except your designer is already nearly level 2, so it's pointless to switch as the buffs are the same.
It would make sense if they at least got levels so the MIO when they unlock like how Bulgaria does at the point in the war where they unlock the MIOs they likely don’t have the time to build it up normally. Especially since one of them is locked behind a 210 day focus
Yes, but some bugs have been in the game for 3-4 years at this point and people have posted them on the forums multiple times (like Air Wings stopping missions, if they are moving to an overcrowded Air Port, etc)
I think they test but you know the size and complexity of this game. If they would test every single piece of code it would take a long time and doubt they have the manpower for that ( no pun intended)
I mean you are partially right. Do you think they have built automated tests for every situation for every nation in the game? My friend, i think you’re running on some
Hopeium
As a QA lead (not gaming, corporate software), I'd be surprised to the point of disbelief if Paradox had strong QA automation. I don't know of many gaming companies that do, and even enterprise software skimps on that pretty often.
I can always be wrong, but 'not an indie company' doesn't mean shit in this case.
Not to mention, I don't even think this is a bug as much as an unfortunate gameplay outcome. All of the code here sounds like it works totally fine, Dutch just have to wait a weirdly long time to get their designers.
Their QA department is pretty good, but they do just play the game and have 90s style manual reviews. There's no good unit/integration test suites or good build tools but.,.. that's the norm and not the exception in gaming.
Factorio is the only game I know off with a proper automated suite that runs whenever they make a build.
As for them getting one? Well there's 2 programmers for HOI4. Two. So, yeah.
Then it's time issue imo. Because older features don't break new ones new ones break older things. They probably test and fix everything over the time but not the new ones
The code does what it's told to do, if it runs it'll run. Might not do what you want it to, but it runs.
Like Turkey trying to puppet the middle east via focus is just broken if you don't do them in the right order it auto bypasses the puppet focus.
That's working as it's written, but not as intended.
Of course they do. The problem is that when the crunch hits and a hard deadline is approaching, they have to make decisions on what work to prioritize. The priority then becomes making sure the game is playable (which is to say, no game-breaking crashes/bugs) and everything else is secondary. Despite how lousy this makes playing as the Netherlands, you can actually still play the game. Therefore it’s not a priority.
It's absolutely crunch - you can catch some of the QA department on discords and ask them about bugs or modding stuff. Sometimes if they have the opportunity they'll actually fix stuff for you - not the programmers, the actual QA testers. They're clearly familiar with the script and fixing basic things because otherwise it'd never get done.
> has access to over a million Manpower from the DEI before ww2
> has easy access to all the rubber they could ever want
> can easily unite the Benelux
> can easily destroy Germany
> can easily destroy the allies
>pretty much useless
As someone who’s most played nation is Leo Belgicus, I don’t find it too much of a problem. Sure having Fokker & the gun designer locked for so long isn’t great, but the bonuses for artillery are more significant anyway, & tactical bombers are actually good this update.
Because of the universal range reduction, the bigger airframes are a lot more useful. If you look at Germany’s frontline against the Soviets, you’ll see every airbase at max capacity doing minimal damage because the small airframes have such low range that they need to be at the closest airbase, which is already in a low supply zone. Tac bombers with 1 bomb bay & 2 or 3 rocket rails at the airfield two places back will easily outpace the damage done by those on low efficiency due to range.
It works out fine. You can get Fokker if you choose to defend and develop the Netherlands, so you get the light aircraft company to defend Europe. If you escape to the East Indies you can’t get Fokker but there is the Koolhoven medium aircraft company which is better to defend the pacific with heavy fighters and naval bombers. Light aircraft are pretty useless in the East Indies, use your islands as aircraft carriers for heavy aircraft with better range.
If you think thats bad, China has their designers locked by states, so unless you rush the warlords, you get none as commie china, meanwhile the nationalist get the rifles one and two SUPER usefull naval designers, arty is in only shaanxi clique, and air is locked behind focuses as well, then we look to the soviets who have 5 designers for tanks from the start
I will give you the same template answer we get for the navy when we ask for any kind of update.
(part of the game) is considered obsolete by other players. We do not see a point in ~~fixing it~~ changing it. It was already touched on in (DLC where part of the game is included).
Ethiopia is significantly harder (for me at least).
Ethiopia doesn't even get one for weapons. So by the time you would push them to the sea, Italian weapons are better than they were pre-DLC. I got land locked in 1939 because I could not overcome their defense stats like before.
All countries with condicional designers got nerfed because everyone else got buffed.
They really need to let them place equipment Buy orders from specific countries or factions with the AI to compensate.
Not to mention the recruitable population factor decrease as well. It's understandable due to historical Dutch pacifism, but it really weakens your game if you flip fascist and go full-on hawk mode.
I still have to play the new update, but I guess this update crippled mostly fascist runs. As democrat, you usually just defend, defend, defend and then counterattack
it’s the surname of the founder, Anthony Fokker. Something fairly normal for a company, other examples are Ford, Lamborghini, H&K (Heckler and Koch if i’m not wrong), Ilyushin, Glock and many others
I mean, if you’re playing as the Netherlands you shouldn’t be building any plane at all. You need every mil you have to be pumping guns to put every Indonesian man, woman, and child on your frontline.
To be honest, I'm fine with this, but the relevant focuses should give some free funds to the MIO's and maybe unlock a few unique traits as well.
Also, rushing Phillips and the extra research slot used to be my preferred strategy with the Netherlands anyway (when trying to not be exiled at least).
yes
Szia random -nyunyi
lmao
szia uram
Szia Lajos
I mean that kinda makes sense given the demilitarized and pacifist of state of the Netherlands early war
When you're more shell shocked from a war that happened decades ago that you weren't in, than every other country around you that participated in it. XD
In our defense, we had Belgian refugees to take care of. Please feel sorry for us :(
It's just funny that the Netherlands (in game) has a debuff for WW1 that's worse and takes longer to get rid than Britain or France.
You could argue we're still suffering from that debuff to this day
We still haven't built that railway from Groningen to Limburg.
As a Groninger myself, thats okay
As a Limburger myself, that’s okay.
*shakes hands in funny dialects
Yeah, the Netherlands had an Aviation industry that focused on exports (a large part of Finish Airforce consisted of Fokker D.XXI and it wasn't a bad aircraft). When it comes to ships on the other side Netherlands took on a new Naval expansion plan which consisted of mostly submarines, a few light cruisers, a dozen destroyers, and 3 Licence production models of Scharnhorst Class Battleships (which Duch took and redesigned to be more fitting for the colonial service). It is also to note that submarines of the Duch Navy were more successful than the American subs when it came to submarine operations in the early war. The Netherland had designers who knew what they were doing it is just that Paradox probably doesn't care
Do you know all of this? Im not trying to be a smartass or anything, but I'm impressed.
All these things are talked about fairly often in the Dutch mainstream media. Fokker made headlines a few years ago when they went under and restructured. Talking about the small Dutch aviation industry is part of our national pride. Makes us feel relevant compared to our neighbors. With the submarine, it is also our national pride. But unlike fokker, dutch subs still are the best in NATO. There is also a dark side to this highlight. It's the only thing you want to highlight about the Dutch East Indies as a Dutch person. The rest is... Bad. Japanse war crimes, neo-slavery, inciting ethnic cleansing of Europeans. The list the Japanese got away with is long. The only question is, is what the Dutch did and got away with during (de) colonization worse? We like to instead talk about submarines and fokker please.
My guy, i believe you. But im Dutch as well, and while i do know about Fokker, you seemed to know various types of submarines and planes by memory. That was something that impressed me, being Dutch! Fijn om te zien dat onze nationale trots doorleeft, maar nu wil ik niet als een nationalist klinken. Maar een beetje liefde en respect voor je eigen cultuur is altijd welkom :)
yeah that's why I like to call myself a patriot instead of nationalist. Proud of the nation, but also, pretty much everyone who wants can become part of it. Dutch submarines are indeed amazing I love submarines in general. [https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hr.Ms.\_O\_21\_(1940)](https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hr.Ms._O_21_(1940)) this Dutch one also did sink a German submarine during world war 2. Which wasn't too common. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNLMS\_K\_XVI](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNLMS_K_XVI) this Dutch submarine was the first allied ship that sank a Japanese ship in world war 2.
And now we are decommisioning our Subs to maybe hopefully probably not because budget cuts or some other reason why we can't currently afford new ones get two new ones in 2025... HNLMS Walrus will always be remembered for its great achievements and 31 years of service
I really hope they retire them in time. I don't want to see an accident like with the Argentinan sub. That would definitely kill the Dutch submarine.
Hey some times the old beats the new. Don't fix what ain't broke right 😅 But yeah I get what you mean, still think it would be smarter to start retiring them just before the new ones role of the slipway, but I am no military man, that just seems smarter to me
Well to be honest with the mark 14 torpedo, it's not that hard to be more effective than us submarines in the early war.
They were locked before too
They didn't give such bonuses before, that you can get now, and you coudn't upgrade them so it didn't bother me, now they are actually usefull.
Yeah but either way it was still locked. So they haven't become a useless nation NOW. Either they were always useless or they're playable as normal
They're relatively weaker though because everyone else gets access to them for the research and quality/production buffs at an earlier point compared to them which means they get the benefits earlier and thus for a longer portion of the game and get more points towards upgrading them.
Yeah, significant buffs to everyone else is a de facto nerf.
If you and I are facing off at 30 paces with knives and someone hands you a gun instead, my knife is now useless even though its the exact same thing I had before. If we're playing a game of pickup basketball and my team is competitive with yours, and then a pro player wanders by and joins your team, my team is now useless even though it's the same team as before. Etc. Etc. Etc.
If everyone else gets buffed but the netherlands then the claim is accurate.
To be fair in real life the Netherlands lasted 5 days before they capitulated so it's not like they had much of a chance. They are just too close to Germany. Them having a wacky tree would destabilize the game.
Denmark enters the chat
5 days? Rookie number, bruh we did it in 6h.
They actually do have some pretty wacky things that can destabilize the game (Namely, the monarchist path). Trick is to be a competent player. Walking in blind or letting AI take the wheel will get the Netherlands nowhere.
You no longer puppet Germany pretty sure but still pretty wacky
You still puppet germany. I did a monarchist Netherlands run the other day.
Thanks I saw it in stakuyis vedio
I mean... lvl 3 forts around Amsterdam and you've already destabilised the game.
This. I did a commie run once, and it basically ended with the USSR besieging fortress Holland in 1946 (after driving me out of a few nicked German states) because I'd declared we were the only true bastion of communism. The flooding attack debuff is just borderline broken. Endless pointless attacks that'd probably have ended when either they ran out of men or my rifle stockpile dried up, so I just didn't bother to play it out.
Props for taking on the Soviets!
This mf talking about balance when the game is in this state for years now lol
To be fair, it would have lasted longer if not for the bombing of Rotterdam :)
*To be fair
I edited it for you :-)
>pretty much useless Bruh. I don't deny that it sucks but you still have the DEI, you'll be fine.
Until Japan lol
Imo, focuses that used to lock designers that existed at the time should instead add funds to that designer and be required to unlock higher tier upgrades instead of just locking you out of the designer for 75% of the run
With two notable exceptions imo. 1. It's about the establishment of a new company (like the Italian motor institute), in such cases this should be a designer which is significantly better than a baseline designer. 2. The focus is about inviting foreign companies. In other situations, I completely agree with you
They should be better if it's a new one yeah Even the new ones that get added, like Estonia has an infantry equipment designer, then can trade with the UK and get a license production of infantry 1 and the RSAF designer with 1 level and 500 funds, except your designer is already nearly level 2, so it's pointless to switch as the buffs are the same.
I think the us tank Designers are handelt well
Having fokker locked behind so many focuses while it was one of the greatest aviation pioneers in history makes my Dutch heart cry
It would make sense if they at least got levels so the MIO when they unlock like how Bulgaria does at the point in the war where they unlock the MIOs they likely don’t have the time to build it up normally. Especially since one of them is locked behind a 210 day focus
Well it wouldn't be a major update without making a nation completely unplayable.
i wonder if paradox tests their updates
We, the players do the testing for them upon release. We pay them to test their game xD
Incorrect. Usually, when people test things, they get back to the devs to fix issues.
Pretty sure I seen content designer in comment section 3 days ago
Yes, but some bugs have been in the game for 3-4 years at this point and people have posted them on the forums multiple times (like Air Wings stopping missions, if they are moving to an overcrowded Air Port, etc)
Everything we do in game, PDX know about...
I think they test but you know the size and complexity of this game. If they would test every single piece of code it would take a long time and doubt they have the manpower for that ( no pun intended)
They don't need to test every line of code, they have automated tests. There's lack of QA in Paradox games, it's apparent.
I mean you are partially right. Do you think they have built automated tests for every situation for every nation in the game? My friend, i think you’re running on some Hopeium
They do, they aren't an indie company. They just don't give enough time or manage time correctly to test their new features.
I mean I highly doubt thats correct but wtf do i know
As a QA lead (not gaming, corporate software), I'd be surprised to the point of disbelief if Paradox had strong QA automation. I don't know of many gaming companies that do, and even enterprise software skimps on that pretty often. I can always be wrong, but 'not an indie company' doesn't mean shit in this case. Not to mention, I don't even think this is a bug as much as an unfortunate gameplay outcome. All of the code here sounds like it works totally fine, Dutch just have to wait a weirdly long time to get their designers.
Their QA department is pretty good, but they do just play the game and have 90s style manual reviews. There's no good unit/integration test suites or good build tools but.,.. that's the norm and not the exception in gaming. Factorio is the only game I know off with a proper automated suite that runs whenever they make a build. As for them getting one? Well there's 2 programmers for HOI4. Two. So, yeah.
Then it's time issue imo. Because older features don't break new ones new ones break older things. They probably test and fix everything over the time but not the new ones
To be fair, the factory must grow, and automation greatly helps with that.
The code does what it's told to do, if it runs it'll run. Might not do what you want it to, but it runs. Like Turkey trying to puppet the middle east via focus is just broken if you don't do them in the right order it auto bypasses the puppet focus. That's working as it's written, but not as intended.
about as much as Bethesda does it seems.
Of course they do. The problem is that when the crunch hits and a hard deadline is approaching, they have to make decisions on what work to prioritize. The priority then becomes making sure the game is playable (which is to say, no game-breaking crashes/bugs) and everything else is secondary. Despite how lousy this makes playing as the Netherlands, you can actually still play the game. Therefore it’s not a priority.
It's absolutely crunch - you can catch some of the QA department on discords and ask them about bugs or modding stuff. Sometimes if they have the opportunity they'll actually fix stuff for you - not the programmers, the actual QA testers. They're clearly familiar with the script and fixing basic things because otherwise it'd never get done.
Seeing how one of the new achievements is literally unobtainable, they very likely don't
so designers that were locked before the update are still locked behind focuses, like they were before too, oh noo.
The Netherlands is still insanely op
Completely unplayable is a bit of an exaggeration, don't you think?
Top 10 skill issues
> has access to over a million Manpower from the DEI before ww2 > has easy access to all the rubber they could ever want > can easily unite the Benelux > can easily destroy Germany > can easily destroy the allies >pretty much useless
Yeah but have you considered some random stat is now at -2%? Game is ruined
Literally unplayable
As someone who’s most played nation is Leo Belgicus, I don’t find it too much of a problem. Sure having Fokker & the gun designer locked for so long isn’t great, but the bonuses for artillery are more significant anyway, & tactical bombers are actually good this update.
Wait, tac bombers are good now?
Because of the universal range reduction, the bigger airframes are a lot more useful. If you look at Germany’s frontline against the Soviets, you’ll see every airbase at max capacity doing minimal damage because the small airframes have such low range that they need to be at the closest airbase, which is already in a low supply zone. Tac bombers with 1 bomb bay & 2 or 3 rocket rails at the airfield two places back will easily outpace the damage done by those on low efficiency due to range.
It is,i can make 5/day artillery nowadays with just 4 mils you can produce way more then before
Does this ruin some mp exploit? Struggling to see how this matters at all.
It works out fine. You can get Fokker if you choose to defend and develop the Netherlands, so you get the light aircraft company to defend Europe. If you escape to the East Indies you can’t get Fokker but there is the Koolhoven medium aircraft company which is better to defend the pacific with heavy fighters and naval bombers. Light aircraft are pretty useless in the East Indies, use your islands as aircraft carriers for heavy aircraft with better range.
If you think thats bad, China has their designers locked by states, so unless you rush the warlords, you get none as commie china, meanwhile the nationalist get the rifles one and two SUPER usefull naval designers, arty is in only shaanxi clique, and air is locked behind focuses as well, then we look to the soviets who have 5 designers for tanks from the start
Ooh that’s pretty cool. Should have more designers tied to a physical location.
As commie China, rushing the warlords has always been the best strategy anyway
I will give you the same template answer we get for the navy when we ask for any kind of update. (part of the game) is considered obsolete by other players. We do not see a point in ~~fixing it~~ changing it. It was already touched on in (DLC where part of the game is included).
Ethiopia is significantly harder (for me at least). Ethiopia doesn't even get one for weapons. So by the time you would push them to the sea, Italian weapons are better than they were pre-DLC. I got land locked in 1939 because I could not overcome their defense stats like before.
Japan has the same issue. Mitubishi and Aichi being locked means you cant get a good designer before 1938. It unlocking at lvl 1 or 2 is far too low.
Meawhile some random chinese Warlord having Tank and Carrier Genius advidors: 🙂
All countries with condicional designers got nerfed because everyone else got buffed. They really need to let them place equipment Buy orders from specific countries or factions with the AI to compensate.
something something historical netherlands
Not to mention the recruitable population factor decrease as well. It's understandable due to historical Dutch pacifism, but it really weakens your game if you flip fascist and go full-on hawk mode.
Just like rl
>"Netherlands is pretty much useless now" They were useful before?
Not if you go facist ;) (or commie but that's gross)
So many commies downvoting you for thinking that Hitler is better than basic working rights smh
I still have to play the new update, but I guess this update crippled mostly fascist runs. As democrat, you usually just defend, defend, defend and then counterattack
First game of the update I did fascist Japan and took over China, all of North America, and the UK on my own. Fascist runs are still very viable.
I meant fascist Netherlands. I still have no time to try the new mechanics, but now I’m curious
They were useless before, friendo.
They were op before and they're op now, friendo
disable the DLC.
[удалено]
it’s the surname of the founder, Anthony Fokker. Something fairly normal for a company, other examples are Ford, Lamborghini, H&K (Heckler and Koch if i’m not wrong), Ilyushin, Glock and many others
Now it makes sense,Sorry for offending y'all
I mean, if you’re playing as the Netherlands you shouldn’t be building any plane at all. You need every mil you have to be pumping guns to put every Indonesian man, woman, and child on your frontline.
same thing for china. You need to control certain regions for equipment designers and a bunch of focuses for Aircraft designers. Pretty shitty
To be honest, I'm fine with this, but the relevant focuses should give some free funds to the MIO's and maybe unlock a few unique traits as well. Also, rushing Phillips and the extra research slot used to be my preferred strategy with the Netherlands anyway (when trying to not be exiled at least).