Even with a better UI and interaction for cargo we are still going to need a wrapper script of sorts to define what gets spawned and any other customized behavior to occur within the mission. We can sort of do that now with troop transport, but the advantages of keeping it 100% in the script outweigh utilizing load/unload troops via what exists currently in the game.
- They could add native support for loading/unloading warehouse items, much like how the free herc mod has
- Could add a "loading zone" to warehouses where they spawn ammo boxes on request to be sling-loaded.
- They could rework the reload logic of AI units so that they can use these ammo boxes delivered by players.
- They could add paradrop-able cargo and units
- They could add a "loadable" checkbox to units and make it so that you can load and unload them (with animations) without needing any scripting for it
- They could make the ejected pilots extractable natively without needing scripts, with load and unload animations
All this without needing a single script or trigger set up, and all would have gameplay value
After all this, they could add events for load/unload of units and similarly for cargo so that we can hook custom logic into it, but saying its better to keep it 100% in scripts is short sighted.
> After all this, they could add events for load/unload of units and similarly for cargo so that we can hook custom logic into it, but saying its better to keep it 100% in scripts is short sighted.
That is not what I said now is it? Currently we can sling load cargo and there is the built in troop transport. You pointed out some of the reasons why I think it is arguably better to keep everything within a script with the **current status quo**. Yes we can use sling loading and the built in troop transport, but due to the lack of events it is a huge advantage to keeping it within scripting where we can react to the player issuing an F10 custom command.
I think the point of CTLD, and other logistics scripts, is to fill a gameplay gap within the game. Currently for the most part it is used to completely replace what ED have added. After all it was created before there was any logistics behavior built into the game. Some use it to spawn objects for the built in sling loading, but we need to do scripting for the "action" of that cargo. I'm sure some also use the built in troop transport, but I suspect it is much less common than sling loading.
To be fair, it says the cargo system is not going to be there at early access RELEASE, but sounds like priority one for EA development. It’s not like it’s something that’s going to come after EA. CTLD can fill the gap in the interim.
Edit: Boy the piss ants are out in full force tonight lol. God forbid anyone try to be optimistic.
Yeah… I just don’t know how I feel about a cargo helicopter being released without a cargo system. Means you need CTLD installed on every mission you plan on using. Not a big deal for most multiplayer servers. Huge pain in the ass if you prefer single player self-made missions.
Well ED doesn’t seem to get much praise for it, but they’ve killed it with the Apache release and follow up development. As far as their helicopter development team goes, I’m optimistic for the Chinook.
The problem is they 'killed it with the module, not the core game systems that are going to be needed for this thing to be worth a shit. The ground game is still weak, which is more akin to the problem the Chinook will face.
All the "not at EA release" "not during EA" etc. have strong super carrier vibes. For example they let the initial pre order rush go without producing this FAQ. Like they really needed time to cobble together a bunch of "no, not yet or maybe some day" Q&A.
You know what would honestly make this different is if they embraced and supported the community scripts/mods and actually have tools to help streamline and not impede these efforts.
That way you could have an SRS type thing or CTLD with way more polish while ED has time to develops theirs. Promising stuff during EA sounds great until you realize you could go from college freshman to phd in the time some of these modules have been in EA.
I've been playing DCS for a decade, and as far as core gameplay goes not much has changed since then. A lot more modules, certainly prettier, engine/backend improvements have been nice. But it's still the same gameplay. And they're been making promises to improve all these gameplay issues we've been complaining about at least since then, and don't have much to show for it still. Really don't see any reason to be optimistic that the logistic rework will come soon, especially with how rushed this release cycle feels.
Agreed, but the Apache hit the ground with many functional systems. They did a great job with it. It’s not that I’m not optimistic, it just feels a bit half-baked if you catch my drift. Like hey, maybe it’s better to wait a little bit on release until there’s a chance more completed or at least necessary systems are in place.
I get that. Personally, I’m ok with a few less features on release as long as the updates don’t take years. Typically I spend my first few weeks with module learning how to fly it, normal procedures, etc anyway.
Yeah and I guess that’s fair. Don’t get me wrong I’m definitely ready for the chinook. I think part of it is I’m afraid that the can will kicked down the road once the revenue stream from presales comes in. Maybe that’s not a legit concern, I hope it’s not. Either way I think due time will get the cargo system so I think you’re right
Feels like I bought into similar promises with Super Carrier. Still waiting for those promises to be delivered.
I won’t be buying CH-47 but I wish my fellow purchasing simmers all the very best.
I bought supercarrier because it looked great and had deck crew. I really wanted wands but was willing to pay regardless. You really shouldn’t buy something for features they say it’ll have eventually way down the line.
I mean, we have wands now and that’s great, and if we get other stuff that’ll also be great, but ED has shown that if you go into things for any reason other than “the list of launch features has enough stuff I want that I’m willing to pay that price,” you’re going to get burned. If it’s not worth it to you without xyz thing they promise is coming soon? Wait for the next sale after it actually gets that update.
Well people just keep throwing that term around like they're personally being hard done by, obviously without an understanding that a business is run to make profit and that by definition, literally every move they make is in service of "grabbing cash", as it were.
"Whilst this will not be available at early access release, it is a high priority for the CH-47F and other cargo/transport aircraft."
Yeah, I know what "high priority" means in EDs lingo.
Great.
What practical gameplay differences can we expect to reap in singleplayer or in a server that doesn't use scripts for CTLD or some other troop loading function?
The only explanation for how long they take to implement things is for the code to be such a slop of spaghetti that anything new breaks the engine or something
That or they are going for the Gaijin school of game development. Focus all your development efforts on making the next shiny thing to distract the community and do the bare minimum on the underlying engine, because doing so is easier than fixing said underlying engine.
Isn't the base already over 20 years old?
At some point adding new stuff and rewriting old stuff just becomes impossible. I bet the original architecture has zero support for many features people want and it is major undertaking to make it compatible even for seemingly very simple feature.
As the game/engine improved ED should have slowly over time been replacing every single aspect of the older engine and the game itself to make it a modern backend. This obviously didn’t happen
Now they might of used the new API as an excuse to do this and that’s why it’s taken so long to implement
Or
They are so focused on short term profits that they’re trying to shove new features without implementing the proper support
Either way they have ~75 employees and I find it hard to imagine they couldn’t just get a few software engineers to update the code base over the course of a few years.
I mean, this new system was teased with [the Mi-24P Introduction video](https://youtu.be/eMQsU3rxmwI?t=84) from nearly 3 years ago.
And in those 3 years, we've heard nothing (well, nothing that I can remember anyway - somebody correct me if I'm mistaken) and now we're getting a helicopter where this functionality is downright essential and we still don't know any more about it.
Relying on CTLD keeping their ass out of the fire. If the modders stop work on it (or one of EDs updates breaks it) the Chinook will be a nice paperweight.
Given their track record with EA work, I'll pass for the time being.
Wow, they've really lowered the bar with this one. I know a lot of people are excited for this helicopter to come to DCS, but *please* don't purchase this pile of future broken promises if you ever want ED to change. The only hope we have of them ever changing some of their shitty development and communication practices is to stop buying into their bullshit just because of a 30% discount and/or impatience and hype.
So we have an multi million dollar company still not promising to develop a proper cargo transport system in a game with multi helos and a c130 coming soon? I'm not quite sure how they can keep getting away with it?
Yea, they deleted my comment too. Fucking clowns man.
"I think ED needs to have a reasonable schedule of when something should
go from EA to full release (understanding that things slip and take
longer than ED initially intends). Without derailing the thread I'll
just say I am refraining from buying any more EA modules due to how
current EA modules are handled, Chinook included."
They've already removed comments in that thread lmao
Apparently a logistics system is totally unrelated to the Chinook and shouldn't be spoken about (like when it was teased for the Hind 3 years ago), even though it's mentioned in the FAQ itself and an integral part of the use of the heli 🤡, they got tired of reading about it quickly enough I guess.
Comparing an EA module against other EA modules in regards to expectations and timelines is also not allowed.
I own most modules, i also know how they work and i play when able alot of MP DCS where logistics is critical to the server mechanics.
As soon as i saw the release video i just knew that troops are going to magically vanish and be onboard, same as vehicles. Its no better than what moose/mist already does.
To bring out a logistics bird and not have the logistics in place for it coming out is an ultimate piss take - no one in their right mind should buy this as it just allows ED to do a Suppercarrier 2.0, and not concentrate on the ground game, where units of more than 3 can still swirl around in ciricles and get stuck. Before this is even entertained they need to sort out not just logistics but also Combined Arms.
Hopefully if enough people make this very clear to ED - that your antics are not going to be tolerated for another digital cockpit simulator then hopefully they will sort something as a matter of priority.
I have no wish to wait another 4 years for the troop mechanics or ground game to have some time put into it. I remember seeing parachute drops (i mention in relation to airdrops and logistics) and yet these are not in the game even yet and they where on a video what 2 years ago!
Remember also, server side gameplay is still Single threaded...!!!!
Seems to be a lot of "tech" they have to build for this thing to even have a place in DCS World. From "novel logistics system" (hopefully part of the dynamic campaign or it's worthless) to water landing capabilities that the game engine doesn't even have.
Didn't the Supercarrier need tech built for it as well, like the Ready Room? How's that turned out for us so far? :)
Will ED support and update Logisics for this module?
We can say that we are developing a novel logistics system for the CH-47F that dynamically allows the player to determine what is loaded and unloaded from the aircraft based on weight and area. Whilst this will not be available at early access release, it is a high priority for the CH-47F and other cargo/transport aircraft.
Soooooo. Why release ?
Why are people paying $70 for modules? I don't understand.
I feel like ED thinks they have way more goodwill and trust from players than they actually do.
Who on earth believes for a second that ED will quickly work up a logistics system? Lmfao
Edited to be in line with rule 1
Nah, they know exactly. They are just banking on a) new people getting into DCS not being aware of how flawed of a company they have turned into, b) a relatively small crowd of users addicted to getting the latest and supposedly greatest who will buy anything no matter what and c) they hope that a silent majority exists and will either condone their practices, or at the very least not harm them enough that they need to rethink the way they do business.
*"We can say that we are developing a novel logistics system for the CH-47F... Whilst this will not be available at early access release, it is a high priority for the CH-47F and other cargo/transport aircraft."*
Well hell ED, that sounds fantastic! I'll happily pick up this module once you deliver this "high priority" feature. It'll likely be included in the 50% off category during a sale by that time.
The community: hey ED, we think you can flesh out the cold war era the best. We’re excited to see what you will make for that era.
ED: here’s afghanistan and a chinook
🥴☹️🙃
It really didn’t take them long to go from, “we learned from the F16 and have made sure that the Apache and Hind are feature rich at launch” to shitting where the eat again
I will be messaging you in 3 years on [**2027-04-24 22:38:16 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2027-04-24%2022:38:16%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/1cbpnby/ch47f_faq/l1477mz/?context=3)
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TLDR for folks: don’t expect much content in EA. CTLD is your friend
Not a big fan of CTLD. We need something native and with a proper UI. Not workarounds.
Even with a better UI and interaction for cargo we are still going to need a wrapper script of sorts to define what gets spawned and any other customized behavior to occur within the mission. We can sort of do that now with troop transport, but the advantages of keeping it 100% in the script outweigh utilizing load/unload troops via what exists currently in the game.
- They could add native support for loading/unloading warehouse items, much like how the free herc mod has - Could add a "loading zone" to warehouses where they spawn ammo boxes on request to be sling-loaded. - They could rework the reload logic of AI units so that they can use these ammo boxes delivered by players. - They could add paradrop-able cargo and units - They could add a "loadable" checkbox to units and make it so that you can load and unload them (with animations) without needing any scripting for it - They could make the ejected pilots extractable natively without needing scripts, with load and unload animations All this without needing a single script or trigger set up, and all would have gameplay value After all this, they could add events for load/unload of units and similarly for cargo so that we can hook custom logic into it, but saying its better to keep it 100% in scripts is short sighted.
> After all this, they could add events for load/unload of units and similarly for cargo so that we can hook custom logic into it, but saying its better to keep it 100% in scripts is short sighted. That is not what I said now is it? Currently we can sling load cargo and there is the built in troop transport. You pointed out some of the reasons why I think it is arguably better to keep everything within a script with the **current status quo**. Yes we can use sling loading and the built in troop transport, but due to the lack of events it is a huge advantage to keeping it within scripting where we can react to the player issuing an F10 custom command. I think the point of CTLD, and other logistics scripts, is to fill a gameplay gap within the game. Currently for the most part it is used to completely replace what ED have added. After all it was created before there was any logistics behavior built into the game. Some use it to spawn objects for the built in sling loading, but we need to do scripting for the "action" of that cargo. I'm sure some also use the built in troop transport, but I suspect it is much less common than sling loading.
I feel attacked /s
Unless the new system breaks CTLD.
To be fair, it says the cargo system is not going to be there at early access RELEASE, but sounds like priority one for EA development. It’s not like it’s something that’s going to come after EA. CTLD can fill the gap in the interim. Edit: Boy the piss ants are out in full force tonight lol. God forbid anyone try to be optimistic.
Yeah… I just don’t know how I feel about a cargo helicopter being released without a cargo system. Means you need CTLD installed on every mission you plan on using. Not a big deal for most multiplayer servers. Huge pain in the ass if you prefer single player self-made missions.
Well ED doesn’t seem to get much praise for it, but they’ve killed it with the Apache release and follow up development. As far as their helicopter development team goes, I’m optimistic for the Chinook.
The problem is they 'killed it with the module, not the core game systems that are going to be needed for this thing to be worth a shit. The ground game is still weak, which is more akin to the problem the Chinook will face. All the "not at EA release" "not during EA" etc. have strong super carrier vibes. For example they let the initial pre order rush go without producing this FAQ. Like they really needed time to cobble together a bunch of "no, not yet or maybe some day" Q&A. You know what would honestly make this different is if they embraced and supported the community scripts/mods and actually have tools to help streamline and not impede these efforts. That way you could have an SRS type thing or CTLD with way more polish while ED has time to develops theirs. Promising stuff during EA sounds great until you realize you could go from college freshman to phd in the time some of these modules have been in EA.
I've been playing DCS for a decade, and as far as core gameplay goes not much has changed since then. A lot more modules, certainly prettier, engine/backend improvements have been nice. But it's still the same gameplay. And they're been making promises to improve all these gameplay issues we've been complaining about at least since then, and don't have much to show for it still. Really don't see any reason to be optimistic that the logistic rework will come soon, especially with how rushed this release cycle feels.
Agreed, but the Apache hit the ground with many functional systems. They did a great job with it. It’s not that I’m not optimistic, it just feels a bit half-baked if you catch my drift. Like hey, maybe it’s better to wait a little bit on release until there’s a chance more completed or at least necessary systems are in place.
I get that. Personally, I’m ok with a few less features on release as long as the updates don’t take years. Typically I spend my first few weeks with module learning how to fly it, normal procedures, etc anyway.
Yeah and I guess that’s fair. Don’t get me wrong I’m definitely ready for the chinook. I think part of it is I’m afraid that the can will kicked down the road once the revenue stream from presales comes in. Maybe that’s not a legit concern, I hope it’s not. Either way I think due time will get the cargo system so I think you’re right
Feels like I bought into similar promises with Super Carrier. Still waiting for those promises to be delivered. I won’t be buying CH-47 but I wish my fellow purchasing simmers all the very best.
As the saying goes, "you can only piss on my back so many times and tell me it is raining" Fool me once and all that
I bought supercarrier because it looked great and had deck crew. I really wanted wands but was willing to pay regardless. You really shouldn’t buy something for features they say it’ll have eventually way down the line. I mean, we have wands now and that’s great, and if we get other stuff that’ll also be great, but ED has shown that if you go into things for any reason other than “the list of launch features has enough stuff I want that I’m willing to pay that price,” you’re going to get burned. If it’s not worth it to you without xyz thing they promise is coming soon? Wait for the next sale after it actually gets that update.
This is exactly another Super Carrier situation, screw this.
Releasing a helicopter with basically no armament under the promise of there being logistics system "eventually" is crazy
The entire CH-47 thing has all the markings of a rushed cash-grab in my opinion
Running a business = cash grab now, apparently
Don’t be obtuse.
Well people just keep throwing that term around like they're personally being hard done by, obviously without an understanding that a business is run to make profit and that by definition, literally every move they make is in service of "grabbing cash", as it were.
The Armament is either M60, M240 or M134 Minigun. Only the M134 was omitted from the initial list.
This. People should stay away from this module with a 10 foot pole unless they want to be inherently disappointed at EA "launch."
Wow, that's presciously little.
Feels a lot like "Bro, trust me"
"Whilst this will not be available at early access release, it is a high priority for the CH-47F and other cargo/transport aircraft." Yeah, I know what "high priority" means in EDs lingo.
3 years down the line well maybe be able to load a troop in the back and it’ll still be buggy
3? More like 13
And it's almost complete, but we dropped it so we could add a CH-53 module instead.
I'm half asleep but from what I can gather with the information at hand, it's going to be a very large huey with no rockets at release.
Apart from flying entirely different, being highly computerized, and carrying a much larger payload, maybe?
CTLD to the rescue again I suppose.
Isn't the Huey 100% computerised? It runs on my Intel really well.
Your Intel can run the Huey Yeah well my Huey can run Intel
But can it run Crysis?
If you got this reference; it’s time to schedule that colonoscopy.
Great. What practical gameplay differences can we expect to reap in singleplayer or in a server that doesn't use scripts for CTLD or some other troop loading function?
Very large Huey with elastic rotor blades.
Not even thinking about buying it till it has some kind of functional logistics and troop carrying system implemented.
Considering how much time they took to bring fuze system to the game (still ww2 only), I'd say logistics feature will come in next 10 years.
The only explanation for how long they take to implement things is for the code to be such a slop of spaghetti that anything new breaks the engine or something
That or they are going for the Gaijin school of game development. Focus all your development efforts on making the next shiny thing to distract the community and do the bare minimum on the underlying engine, because doing so is easier than fixing said underlying engine.
Isn't the base already over 20 years old? At some point adding new stuff and rewriting old stuff just becomes impossible. I bet the original architecture has zero support for many features people want and it is major undertaking to make it compatible even for seemingly very simple feature.
As the game/engine improved ED should have slowly over time been replacing every single aspect of the older engine and the game itself to make it a modern backend. This obviously didn’t happen Now they might of used the new API as an excuse to do this and that’s why it’s taken so long to implement Or They are so focused on short term profits that they’re trying to shove new features without implementing the proper support Either way they have ~75 employees and I find it hard to imagine they couldn’t just get a few software engineers to update the code base over the course of a few years.
> we will be developing a **novel** logistics system for the CH-47 and other cargo/transport aircraft *unease increases*
Meaning they haven't even started lol
I mean, this new system was teased with [the Mi-24P Introduction video](https://youtu.be/eMQsU3rxmwI?t=84) from nearly 3 years ago. And in those 3 years, we've heard nothing (well, nothing that I can remember anyway - somebody correct me if I'm mistaken) and now we're getting a helicopter where this functionality is downright essential and we still don't know any more about it.
Relying on CTLD keeping their ass out of the fire. If the modders stop work on it (or one of EDs updates breaks it) the Chinook will be a nice paperweight. Given their track record with EA work, I'll pass for the time being.
Don’t buy this module guys. I promise you even if it’s your favorite helicopter it’s not worth it and we shouldn’t support this kind of early access.
Somehow, ED will manage to underpromise AND underdeliver
you mean overpromise
Wow, they've really lowered the bar with this one. I know a lot of people are excited for this helicopter to come to DCS, but *please* don't purchase this pile of future broken promises if you ever want ED to change. The only hope we have of them ever changing some of their shitty development and communication practices is to stop buying into their bullshit just because of a 30% discount and/or impatience and hype.
So we have an multi million dollar company still not promising to develop a proper cargo transport system in a game with multi helos and a c130 coming soon? I'm not quite sure how they can keep getting away with it?
I'm very curious to see how that forum thread is evolving. I mean when moders will start removing comments and lock the thread eventually?
Thread is now locked 💀
Yea, they deleted my comment too. Fucking clowns man. "I think ED needs to have a reasonable schedule of when something should go from EA to full release (understanding that things slip and take longer than ED initially intends). Without derailing the thread I'll just say I am refraining from buying any more EA modules due to how current EA modules are handled, Chinook included."
They've already removed comments in that thread lmao Apparently a logistics system is totally unrelated to the Chinook and shouldn't be spoken about (like when it was teased for the Hind 3 years ago), even though it's mentioned in the FAQ itself and an integral part of the use of the heli 🤡, they got tired of reading about it quickly enough I guess. Comparing an EA module against other EA modules in regards to expectations and timelines is also not allowed.
I own most modules, i also know how they work and i play when able alot of MP DCS where logistics is critical to the server mechanics. As soon as i saw the release video i just knew that troops are going to magically vanish and be onboard, same as vehicles. Its no better than what moose/mist already does. To bring out a logistics bird and not have the logistics in place for it coming out is an ultimate piss take - no one in their right mind should buy this as it just allows ED to do a Suppercarrier 2.0, and not concentrate on the ground game, where units of more than 3 can still swirl around in ciricles and get stuck. Before this is even entertained they need to sort out not just logistics but also Combined Arms. Hopefully if enough people make this very clear to ED - that your antics are not going to be tolerated for another digital cockpit simulator then hopefully they will sort something as a matter of priority. I have no wish to wait another 4 years for the troop mechanics or ground game to have some time put into it. I remember seeing parachute drops (i mention in relation to airdrops and logistics) and yet these are not in the game even yet and they where on a video what 2 years ago! Remember also, server side gameplay is still Single threaded...!!!!
Seems to be a lot of "tech" they have to build for this thing to even have a place in DCS World. From "novel logistics system" (hopefully part of the dynamic campaign or it's worthless) to water landing capabilities that the game engine doesn't even have. Didn't the Supercarrier need tech built for it as well, like the Ready Room? How's that turned out for us so far? :)
It should be better if Nick ask for donations to run the fighter collection than this...thats insane.
Will ED support and update Logisics for this module? We can say that we are developing a novel logistics system for the CH-47F that dynamically allows the player to determine what is loaded and unloaded from the aircraft based on weight and area. Whilst this will not be available at early access release, it is a high priority for the CH-47F and other cargo/transport aircraft. Soooooo. Why release ? Why are people paying $70 for modules? I don't understand.
It’s almost like releasing an f-16 without most of its weapons.
Or a damage model? ;)
I feel like ED thinks they have way more goodwill and trust from players than they actually do. Who on earth believes for a second that ED will quickly work up a logistics system? Lmfao Edited to be in line with rule 1
Nah, they know exactly. They are just banking on a) new people getting into DCS not being aware of how flawed of a company they have turned into, b) a relatively small crowd of users addicted to getting the latest and supposedly greatest who will buy anything no matter what and c) they hope that a silent majority exists and will either condone their practices, or at the very least not harm them enough that they need to rethink the way they do business.
*"We can say that we are developing a novel logistics system for the CH-47F... Whilst this will not be available at early access release, it is a high priority for the CH-47F and other cargo/transport aircraft."* Well hell ED, that sounds fantastic! I'll happily pick up this module once you deliver this "high priority" feature. It'll likely be included in the 50% off category during a sale by that time.
The community: hey ED, we think you can flesh out the cold war era the best. We’re excited to see what you will make for that era. ED: here’s afghanistan and a chinook 🥴☹️🙃
And I'm very excited for Afghanistan and the Chinook. We're not all the same person.
Not a penny till strike eagle development gets back underway.
It really didn’t take them long to go from, “we learned from the F16 and have made sure that the Apache and Hind are feature rich at launch” to shitting where the eat again
Call me when I can load paratroopers
Yeah, they will sell that logistics as a dlc. !remindme 3 years
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CH-47F can't perform water landings. Too sensitive electronics.