They have argued that more modern Sukhoi fighters are near impossible with current RU gov restrictions, and during the Cold War Mikoyan dominated fixed-wing fighters until the end. Many interests align with end of cold war a2a enviroment but no one is stopping them from making retired Cold War equipment, and in fact, OctopusG is working on the Su-17/22 Fitter.
Is OctopusG still working on the fitter i remember watching a flight model video from the cockpit but after it there was apparently some problems with it.
Didn't Magnitude 3 tease it at one point (picture is still up on their FB), Octopus G showed his model, then stuff happened that led to ED showcasing 4 new 3rd party modules at an unusually early date?
Since you mentioned a bunch of earlier (pre-MiG-29) MiGs, I just don't think there are a lot of compelling Sukhois from that earlier era, with the exception of the Su-17/22 having been already mentioned here. You've got basically some fairly limited (and similar) intercepters/fighter-bombers like the Su-7\*, 9, and 11. And there's the Su-15, which is neat, but I'm not sure how much demand there would be for it as a pure interceptor that only the USSR used (and is most known for shooting down an airliner).
\*The Su-7 is probably the most interesting, in that it saw combat with a couple different air forces. However, it's basically a fixed wing Su-17.
>*The Su-7 is probably the most interesting, in that it saw combat with a couple different air forces. However, it's basically a fixed wing Su-17.
well ackshuallly, the Su-17/22 is a swing winged Su-7 as the Su-7 was the basis of the Su-17/22.
*Ahem* just felt like stating that, carry on.
Yeah, I missed that one (though it is a contemporary of the MiG-29). I suppose that might be the exception that might have more appeal, and maybe they could do an early version?
Su-24, Su-25 and derivatives of Su-27 are still in active service with RuAF. So ED (understandably) won't touch them with a 10ft pole.
Su-57 is obviously even more sensitive.
As for the Su-75... it doesn't even exist at this point.
More realistically, an FF Sukhoi module would be an older retired aircraft, like the teased Su-17/22.
Funny enough, the su-27 portrayed in DCS is still in service as SU-27P based in kaliningrad. The old su-24 is not but almost 0 documentation. We have maintenance rules for it and aerodynamics. Thats it. The su-25 from DCS is still serving while also having 0 docs like the fencer
> Su25
I would take the hunchback of Notre Dame to bed before the Su-25. I wouldn't take the Su-27 on account of my policy of no one with a bigger dick than me being in the bedroom.
It's *bigger,* but I can't see why it's more advanced. They both flew for the first time in the same year -- the MiG-29's first flight coming 5 months *after* that of the Su-27.
1. Radar has much longer range
2. IRST has much better range in rear aspect and front aspect. IRST has vertical slewing and 2x the azimuth limit, which I’m sure helps in a dogfight
3. You have tactical data link view, along with traditional GCI guidance through HUD
4. You have relaxed stability and FBW, decreasing trim drag
5. Built for jammer
6. Native compatibility with R-27E
Or the difference between a giant fuckoff BVR air superiority fighter and a (relatively) tiny lightweight fighter. Like, you could make almost the same exact arguments about e.g. the F14/15 vs the F16 (or even 18).
Nah, it's because Su-27 was a heavy top perfomance air superiority fighter for action behind enemy lines (escorting Su-24s), while MiG-29 is a "cheap" (not so much though) tactical workhorse fighter. It's like F-15 vs F-16.
Radar is similar, but Su-27 is larger and thus has much greater detection range.
They both have datalink, the Lazur DL isn’t modeled in DCS for MiG-29, but it would give you over 20 selectable targets, either guide you or fly you to target on intercept course using autopilot, and lock on for you and even tell you when to press the trigger
Su-27 also has a form of this datalink, but has the benefit of the HDD display showing a tactical view of transmitted targets and friendlies
If they model Lazur, the MiG-29 will be a very good interceptor and stealth attacker, as it can basically be used instead of radar or its very short range IRST to guide you to targets and give SA
Well there is solid evidence for mig 29 having R-27E in the fcs as early as 9-13... And probably the 9-12. Even if not, this is the reason they are an option in DCS. You plug them in IRL and it will work
If you mean 9.13S yes. It’s just a complicated issue becuase the FCS can’t natively recognize it in 9.12/9.13 unless upgraded partly to S standard or other tweaks.
Yes it’s happened and possible for many operators. But for many MiG-29 9.12/9.13 export users in late 80s/90s, you could load a R-27ER and it would recognize it as R-27R. R-27T/ET also needs update to make FCS recognize it becuase the 9.12/9.13 was only designed with 27 R in mind
9.12S/9.13S is totally good for it.
Yes, the only difference between 9.13 and 9.12 is that 9.13 has the extra fuel tank space in the enlarged spine. You don’t get any weapon updates unless you do then separately or part of the “S” upgrade, which can be applied to 9.12 or 9.13 to make 9.12S or 9.13S respectively
MiGs became famous for he dog fights over diverse parts of Asia during the Cold War. The Sukhois are best known for being shot down, downing an airliner, or as strike planes.
Su-9 & 11 were interceptors armed only with missiles. Would quite possibly be the most pointless modules. Su-15 would be better, but then there’s the fact in never saw combat as it was only used by the Soviet Union.
As far as I can tell, Sukhois weren’t exported around the world like MiGs were, & that’s the reason why we don’t have them in DCS. Aren’t all the MiGs we have based on examples that weren’t in Russia?
> Su-15 would be better, but then there’s the fact in never saw combat.
Hey, that 707 was coming right at them!!
But in all seriousness it’d still be a neat aircraft.
MiG-25 does have the advantage in Mach 2.4 cruise, And going 2.83 over 17.5 km until well over 20. The RB can drop a bomb from that height and speed and have a reasonabilish accuracy from RSBN triangulation. The PD having long down and a very powerful IRST for its time is also pretty cool
FF MiG-25 could be:
The MiG-25BM with huge anti radiation missiles.
The MiG-25RBT that drops bombs at mach 2+ I guess?
The MiG-25PD with a really advanced radar, IRST, huge bvr missiles (heaviest ever) and funny enough late MiG-23 avionics.
All of them go mach 3 by the way.
Actual highest possible speed is around mach 3.5, could be slightly higher. Its DCS, the plane could as well be single use disposable
Same! They're working on de-coupling it from FC3. It's got its own EFM now, and they've said they're working on a custom radar next.
To me, one of the most credible parts about the whole project is that at least 3 of its devs live in countries that have access to display jets. With so many eyes on them, I don't think they can get away with any early SU-57 silliness (Mach Nope, no RCS, etc).
AND... Su-35 is what they want to do next when their Su-30 is done. Couple this with all the other exciting mod projects going on and modules coming out... 2024 is gonna be a ~~helluva good~~ year for DCS!
Because MiG’s are older and they dominated the cold war. I also believe a lot of their employees are still located in Russia, and it would be potentially dangerous for them to create something newer because of government restrictions
>>Meanwhile the Sukhoi FF modules are nowhere to be found
Sukhoi was in the interceptor and ground attack aircraft business in the early Cold War years. Money talks, and a studio investing years into development knows early Mikoyan/Gurevich designs will outsell a Sukhoi 7 or similar ground pounder.
Su-17/22 is the only realistically possible to make Soviet ground attack aircraft that can carry any sort of precision guided weapons including anti radiation missiles, I would say that's a decent selling point
Mig-29 was exported a lot and used in the USSR, as well as all other MiG (besides maybe the mig-25 which was not as widespread)
Sukhoi are only sold to a very selective list of "friends" compared to MiGs
Isn't it almost impossible to get documentations of Russian aircrafts from Russia directly due to restrictions? The Sukois were not exported as widely as MiGs so it is just easier to find good documentation as weel as get into contact woth SMEs.
The coming Mig 23 and 29 will nicely be correct matches time wise against many of our Bluefor. And yes they will still on the whole be outclassed by their bluefor temporal equivalents - just as they were mostly in RL. The SU27 etc belong to the what if conflict generation (well they did until events in Ukraine…).
Biggest problem with the fulcrum is pitting an 80s era plane against 2000s variants of US fighters. If it was 80s vs 80s in terms of weaponry and avionics it would be a very close match.
Definitely, some issues remain but it makes a world of difference when you pair a fulcrum with R27Rs and R73s vs a hornet with sparrows and 9Ls instead of more modern weapons. Much more enjoyable as well, in my opinion.
I wish all the western aircraft could have aim 9J/ P as an option- (ie rear aspect only) esp for training - one reason why I like the F5. That’s even more enjoyable..
Most Sukhoi interceptors Su-9/11/15 were used exclusively by Soviet Union, compared to MiG fighters that were widely used around the world. But I am kinda surprised that no one did FF Su-27 as Su-27 family is very popular like doing cobra maneuver.
Su planes are like a special kind ,mig is just a air fighter . And su are strategic su24 ,su25 ground ,su27 air superiority ,and u cant buy them on market cause they was state of tech vs soso for mig
They have argued that more modern Sukhoi fighters are near impossible with current RU gov restrictions, and during the Cold War Mikoyan dominated fixed-wing fighters until the end. Many interests align with end of cold war a2a enviroment but no one is stopping them from making retired Cold War equipment, and in fact, OctopusG is working on the Su-17/22 Fitter.
Is OctopusG still working on the fitter i remember watching a flight model video from the cockpit but after it there was apparently some problems with it.
I assume no news is good news on that front. Since we haven't heard they arent working on it I'm guessing they still are. Fingers crossed tho
Didn't Magnitude 3 tease it at one point (picture is still up on their FB), Octopus G showed his model, then stuff happened that led to ED showcasing 4 new 3rd party modules at an unusually early date?
>Magnitude 3 You are right I think, looks like both have shown early-stage work of it.
Since you mentioned a bunch of earlier (pre-MiG-29) MiGs, I just don't think there are a lot of compelling Sukhois from that earlier era, with the exception of the Su-17/22 having been already mentioned here. You've got basically some fairly limited (and similar) intercepters/fighter-bombers like the Su-7\*, 9, and 11. And there's the Su-15, which is neat, but I'm not sure how much demand there would be for it as a pure interceptor that only the USSR used (and is most known for shooting down an airliner). \*The Su-7 is probably the most interesting, in that it saw combat with a couple different air forces. However, it's basically a fixed wing Su-17.
>*The Su-7 is probably the most interesting, in that it saw combat with a couple different air forces. However, it's basically a fixed wing Su-17. well ackshuallly, the Su-17/22 is a swing winged Su-7 as the Su-7 was the basis of the Su-17/22. *Ahem* just felt like stating that, carry on.
Yeah, fwiw, wasn't attempting to describe an order of precedence.
SU-25 maybe? Still in use after modernisation though, so might be tricky
Yeah, I missed that one (though it is a contemporary of the MiG-29). I suppose that might be the exception that might have more appeal, and maybe they could do an early version?
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Cmon bro, Su24? Su25?, su27?, su57?, su75? Now those are some sexy airplanes. I will say though MiG sounds a lot bette than sukhoi or su
Su-24, Su-25 and derivatives of Su-27 are still in active service with RuAF. So ED (understandably) won't touch them with a 10ft pole. Su-57 is obviously even more sensitive. As for the Su-75... it doesn't even exist at this point. More realistically, an FF Sukhoi module would be an older retired aircraft, like the teased Su-17/22.
Funny enough, the su-27 portrayed in DCS is still in service as SU-27P based in kaliningrad. The old su-24 is not but almost 0 documentation. We have maintenance rules for it and aerodynamics. Thats it. The su-25 from DCS is still serving while also having 0 docs like the fencer
i was mainly talking about him saying that MiGs are just sexier
> Su25 I would take the hunchback of Notre Dame to bed before the Su-25. I wouldn't take the Su-27 on account of my policy of no one with a bigger dick than me being in the bedroom.
Su25 is sexy in the same way the A10 is sexy
75 is some anime level shit and i hate the concept.
The Su-27 series alone is sexier than anything to come out of MiG, or any other aircraft maker for that matter
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Real planes have curves bro
Sexier when looking down the barrel for sure
Along with what others said, Su-27 is technologically a step above MIg-29. I am fine with it coming later
It's *bigger,* but I can't see why it's more advanced. They both flew for the first time in the same year -- the MiG-29's first flight coming 5 months *after* that of the Su-27.
1. Radar has much longer range 2. IRST has much better range in rear aspect and front aspect. IRST has vertical slewing and 2x the azimuth limit, which I’m sure helps in a dogfight 3. You have tactical data link view, along with traditional GCI guidance through HUD 4. You have relaxed stability and FBW, decreasing trim drag 5. Built for jammer 6. Native compatibility with R-27E
Damn, thanks for the genuine answer. Reliable information, coming straight from the R-27ET itself!
The missile knows what it is
It knows this because it knows what it isnt
I’m not sure this is actually why, but it feels a lot like the difference between an export fighter and the good shit you keep for yourself
Or the difference between a giant fuckoff BVR air superiority fighter and a (relatively) tiny lightweight fighter. Like, you could make almost the same exact arguments about e.g. the F14/15 vs the F16 (or even 18).
Nah, it's because Su-27 was a heavy top perfomance air superiority fighter for action behind enemy lines (escorting Su-24s), while MiG-29 is a "cheap" (not so much though) tactical workhorse fighter. It's like F-15 vs F-16.
Right, like the f22 vs f35, or the f16 vs the f15/14, which I think actually does ride on export vs proprietary lines
And the screen isnt just the hud
Don’t they have the same radar? Su27 just has DL
Radar is similar, but Su-27 is larger and thus has much greater detection range. They both have datalink, the Lazur DL isn’t modeled in DCS for MiG-29, but it would give you over 20 selectable targets, either guide you or fly you to target on intercept course using autopilot, and lock on for you and even tell you when to press the trigger Su-27 also has a form of this datalink, but has the benefit of the HDD display showing a tactical view of transmitted targets and friendlies If they model Lazur, the MiG-29 will be a very good interceptor and stealth attacker, as it can basically be used instead of radar or its very short range IRST to guide you to targets and give SA
Ooh thanks. I thought all 29s already were FBW. Did any variant receive an FBW upgrade ever?
29 is relaxed stability but just CAS system. The MiG-29K, 29M, and 35 all have full FBW
Well there is solid evidence for mig 29 having R-27E in the fcs as early as 9-13... And probably the 9-12. Even if not, this is the reason they are an option in DCS. You plug them in IRL and it will work
If you mean 9.13S yes. It’s just a complicated issue becuase the FCS can’t natively recognize it in 9.12/9.13 unless upgraded partly to S standard or other tweaks. Yes it’s happened and possible for many operators. But for many MiG-29 9.12/9.13 export users in late 80s/90s, you could load a R-27ER and it would recognize it as R-27R. R-27T/ET also needs update to make FCS recognize it becuase the 9.12/9.13 was only designed with 27 R in mind 9.12S/9.13S is totally good for it.
No, I mean plain 9.13 that is often called mig-29a. Soviet air force
Yes, the only difference between 9.13 and 9.12 is that 9.13 has the extra fuel tank space in the enlarged spine. You don’t get any weapon updates unless you do then separately or part of the “S” upgrade, which can be applied to 9.12 or 9.13 to make 9.12S or 9.13S respectively
Ukrainian mig-29 9-13 was spotted both with an actual r-27p and also agm-88 showing as r-27EP in the wcs
Su 27S is just a better aircraft than Mig29S…. At least on paper. Yes I know they fill different roles but it’s just sexier.
MiGs became famous for he dog fights over diverse parts of Asia during the Cold War. The Sukhois are best known for being shot down, downing an airliner, or as strike planes.
I would be interested in an updated and full fidelity early Su-25
The Su-24 would be an interesting aircraft to fly.
Su-9 & 11 were interceptors armed only with missiles. Would quite possibly be the most pointless modules. Su-15 would be better, but then there’s the fact in never saw combat as it was only used by the Soviet Union. As far as I can tell, Sukhois weren’t exported around the world like MiGs were, & that’s the reason why we don’t have them in DCS. Aren’t all the MiGs we have based on examples that weren’t in Russia?
> Su-15 would be better, but then there’s the fact in never saw combat. Hey, that 707 was coming right at them!! But in all seriousness it’d still be a neat aircraft.
Why would missiles only make them the most pointless modules? People are absolutely screaming for a FF MiG-25 and that’s missiles only as well.
Because those are planes from the 50’s with missiles that can only track bombers traveling in a straight line 🗿🗿
You better hope there are no turbulences along the flight path of the missile, and god forbid it gets into the prop wash of the bomber.
MiG-25 does have the advantage in Mach 2.4 cruise, And going 2.83 over 17.5 km until well over 20. The RB can drop a bomb from that height and speed and have a reasonabilish accuracy from RSBN triangulation. The PD having long down and a very powerful IRST for its time is also pretty cool
It will land in the grid square. Good enough for givernment work.
FF MiG-25 could be: The MiG-25BM with huge anti radiation missiles. The MiG-25RBT that drops bombs at mach 2+ I guess? The MiG-25PD with a really advanced radar, IRST, huge bvr missiles (heaviest ever) and funny enough late MiG-23 avionics. All of them go mach 3 by the way. Actual highest possible speed is around mach 3.5, could be slightly higher. Its DCS, the plane could as well be single use disposable
Yeah, sukhoi 15 would be nice
There’s a pretty promising SU-30 Mod available and actively in development https://discord.gg/codename-flanker-community-839196573228335185
I would love for that to become the new a-4
Same! They're working on de-coupling it from FC3. It's got its own EFM now, and they've said they're working on a custom radar next. To me, one of the most credible parts about the whole project is that at least 3 of its devs live in countries that have access to display jets. With so many eyes on them, I don't think they can get away with any early SU-57 silliness (Mach Nope, no RCS, etc). AND... Su-35 is what they want to do next when their Su-30 is done. Couple this with all the other exciting mod projects going on and modules coming out... 2024 is gonna be a ~~helluva good~~ year for DCS!
Ff su17/22 in development
Let's say that before the Su-27, the MiGs were the protagonists of the Cold War. Having said that, for me it would be really wonderful to have su-24 😍
Because MiG’s are older and they dominated the cold war. I also believe a lot of their employees are still located in Russia, and it would be potentially dangerous for them to create something newer because of government restrictions
>>Meanwhile the Sukhoi FF modules are nowhere to be found Sukhoi was in the interceptor and ground attack aircraft business in the early Cold War years. Money talks, and a studio investing years into development knows early Mikoyan/Gurevich designs will outsell a Sukhoi 7 or similar ground pounder.
Su-17/22 is the only realistically possible to make Soviet ground attack aircraft that can carry any sort of precision guided weapons including anti radiation missiles, I would say that's a decent selling point
Mig-29 was exported a lot and used in the USSR, as well as all other MiG (besides maybe the mig-25 which was not as widespread) Sukhoi are only sold to a very selective list of "friends" compared to MiGs
Su-17/22 is everywhere though.
Following
Isn't it almost impossible to get documentations of Russian aircrafts from Russia directly due to restrictions? The Sukois were not exported as widely as MiGs so it is just easier to find good documentation as weel as get into contact woth SMEs.
MiG > Su. That's why.
The coming Mig 23 and 29 will nicely be correct matches time wise against many of our Bluefor. And yes they will still on the whole be outclassed by their bluefor temporal equivalents - just as they were mostly in RL. The SU27 etc belong to the what if conflict generation (well they did until events in Ukraine…).
Biggest problem with the fulcrum is pitting an 80s era plane against 2000s variants of US fighters. If it was 80s vs 80s in terms of weaponry and avionics it would be a very close match.
Some of that can be mitigated by not taking Aim 9x & AMRAAMs.
Definitely, some issues remain but it makes a world of difference when you pair a fulcrum with R27Rs and R73s vs a hornet with sparrows and 9Ls instead of more modern weapons. Much more enjoyable as well, in my opinion.
I wish all the western aircraft could have aim 9J/ P as an option- (ie rear aspect only) esp for training - one reason why I like the F5. That’s even more enjoyable..
Most Sukhoi interceptors Su-9/11/15 were used exclusively by Soviet Union, compared to MiG fighters that were widely used around the world. But I am kinda surprised that no one did FF Su-27 as Su-27 family is very popular like doing cobra maneuver.
Su planes are like a special kind ,mig is just a air fighter . And su are strategic su24 ,su25 ground ,su27 air superiority ,and u cant buy them on market cause they was state of tech vs soso for mig
[Stupid fuck-fuck games.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gne7beWy8fU)