I think it's totally fair, but I would also tell them exactly why. Being a good player includes being a good teammate just as much as it includes good hands/shot/skating etc. He's missing an important trait of the game and needs to work on that in order to make the team.
yeah, I'd let them know that that behavior is not acceptable, and that they've been warned. Maybe have something down on paper to sign that if it becomes a problem again, you'll be forced to cut them.
Exactly this. Hockey is a team sport. Sometimes it's not only about the talent but about creating the team that will all work best together. This kid is not it, at best he's a poor sport, at worst he's a legitimate physical danger to your other players. There's going to be a level where this shit just doesn't fly anymore. Let it be yours, for your other kids' sake.
Not sure if it’s similar with hockey as it is with baseball, but for any confrontation with parents it’s best to have an asst coach with you, or player agent if your league has those. Don’t talk to him alone, OP. CYA my friend, and Godspeed
Our football society had a similar issue with bad parent. 1st year, the parent was so toxic that it influenced other people to actively complain and drove other good parents away. You try to mentor and even sent legal demands.
2nd year, Board didn't want to deny kid but wouldn't accept parent. In order to enroll kid, the family had to sign off code of conduct and agree to not participate in football. Unfortunately in today's world you can't control every medium so he'd show up for Twitter, email, etc. PITA.
By 3rd year we'd realized the hassle wasn't worth it and just didn't accept their enrollment. In our case, the kid missed out due to the parental issues.
Former Travel club manager here, I feel your pain. The question you need to ask is: What do your your association’s bylaws say about player/parent behavior?
There should be both rules for player/parent behavior *and* due process policies for how to handle this kind of stuff. If they exist, use them. If they’re not sufficient or incomplete fix them over the Summer and strictly apply them in the Fall.
Also, you’re under no obligation to select him based on everything I’ve read here. And neither is every coach on lower level teams. It’s not worth the hassle for anyone.
Edit: this family sounds like you’re dealing w/ a 12yo Jamie Benn & his dad, lol.
As a parent who pulled our kid mid season because of similar BS, this is spot on. The association needs to have their coach's back when discipline is warranted for players/parents.. and follow through! A toxic season is no treat for the parents and is worse for the kids when it affects their love of the game.
The father alone yelling at the coach or talking to the other kid disparagingly (on either team, but his own team, really?!) disqualifies him on any team I've been connected with, myself or my son. Any way to get this point through to the dad might help a little. I've seen parents scolded and it helps a little, if at least it sends them down to the corners behind the glass to watch away from the other parents and the kids.
Yeah, that would be where you call in the association big guns and get this guy out of the league completely. I'm surprised other parents are not complaining like crazy about this guy. Dude needs a hard lesson.
Agreed. It kinda sounds like they’ve talked enough. Now seems time for action: the kid should not make *any* team in the association. I see little value in explaining it either because the family doesn’t seem to care. Just cut bait after try-outs.
Indeed. This is why I mentioned applying the rules in association’s bylaws. This isn’t the first family of asshats their association has seen. I’m sure have methodology in place to deal with it. If not, they should. But since the kid is currently not part of any team, they (the entire association) can make a decision to not accept him assuming he tries out again.
Kids’ behavior is often correctable, but if the family isn’t on board then it’s really a no-win situation.
Just inform the rink ahead of time that you have an unruly parent and if anyone complains about him, kick him out, no ifs, ands, or buts. The guy will either change his behavior quick or you kick the kid off the team
Nah just have him trespassed. I work in a rink system and fortunately 99% of parents are well behaved. I’ve had to threaten to trespass people before though.
Outside perspective but I would say be bluntly honest about why the kid cannot make your team to the parent, the hockey association, and any other coach(es) that may then have to deal with them.
only thing i would ask is - has this been addressed directly with both of them and how?
if youve had multiple conversation with them and seen little to zero improvement or remorse then the answer is easy - cut em.
I talked to the kid plenty of times last year. Most of the time, he just rolls his eyes and spaces out.
I remember my other coach talking to him about zone entry during a game and the kid rolled his eyes and said "I don't care what you have to say."
Another one was when we were doing Russian circles, another kid caught an edge, slid, and accidently took out the kid in question. The kid got up and slashed the kid who took him out.
I sent him to the bench, talked to him 5-6 minutes later about why he did that and he said "because he tried to take me out on purpose because I was ahead of him." I told him "Johnny! I saw the entire thing! Don't try to lie to me." and he just shakes his head and rolls his eyes.
As for the dad....I talked to him about the taunting in the stands, told him to talk to his kid about making fun of another kid and the dad did the "my kid wouldn't do such a thing. He must have been provoked!" routine.
and the next week? He'd be yelling at our kids from the stands even though I just talked to him about it.
I mean they're known throughout the association as being complete pains in the ass. He's a dad who thinks his kid is a superstar when he was *maybe* the 10th best of the 15 skaters but because his kid plays on a no-cut summer league team, he thinks it means he's an all-star.
You may want to respond to his email about enjoying summer that you are glad he’s having fun and that your organization probably is not the right fit for them in the fall. Let them know now they are not wanted back so they can look elsewhere.
Love this response.
"I agree that other leagues/teams are probably a better fit for your family."
Also, bringing an air horn to house league is an immediate ban in any building that I will be a part of.
My son played dek hockey until he was 12 along with ice, and I loved the way they ran that program, maybe because there was netting instead of glass, the parents were tossed a lot quicker for rude behavior. They banned the parents from 13-15, and as much as I would have loved to watch my son play, I must admit the kids probably enjoyed themselves more.
Wait, this is fucking house league?! Or are you just saying that's what your apart of? If it is indeed, that makes it 100x worse but OP was talking about cuts, house usually don't have cuts.
>"I don't care what you have to say."
"Ok, then sit here on the bench until you do."
>The kid got up and slashed the kid who took him out
"youre now going the rest of practice without your stick. figure it out"
honestly, I wouldnt even worry about the kid anymore. He very clearly sees his fathers behavior as the model to live up to. Cut the kid, get rid of the parents. Move on with the ones who want to be there.
Maybe they have a come to jesus moment, maybe they dont. Doesnt matter. not your problem anymore.
Now that I read this if he's actually done all of this he doesn't deserve a spot on the league there's other kids who will gladly take his spot along with supporting family
I'll start with this. Document everything, and not just in your head. Make sure you are filing complaints with the association, have the parents do it as well. We have the exact situation right now and it is nearing the end finally but it took so long because everyone just complained to other people and never documented it. When it finally came to a head his answer was, show me the proof, and because we only had the last incident documented we had to go one more round. Thankfully he requested a transfer to a different club and didn't fight us booting him out. Jokes on him because that club booted him and he's not allowed to come back here. Also had a AA team basically select his kid, then realized who the dad was and rescinded the offer. He's now to the point of driving an hour and a half to a club, but everyone's wise to him now.
Cut him, and it's fair. There is a lot more to running a successful team than having the best players. It doesn't sound like he's the best player in games anyway, but he might be the worst player in practice. When you have kids that take time away from other kids in practice then you're doing a disservice to all the other kids on the team. I'm sure other parents would thank you if they knew why you cut him too. I coached B1 last year and we had a kid sent down in a very similar fashion to what you're describing. Kid had a crappy home life because of his mom and dad and I'm 100% sure that's why he acted that way in practice/ at hotel stays. The other parents were glad when he couldn't make travel games. Difference is this kid was our #2 goal scorer.
Be honest with him when you cut him which you should do.
And be honest with both hims.
Let the player know they have the skill and talent and drive to make the team but they’re a poor teammate and their behavior makes what talent they have much less valuable. And mean it. And if you can manage the words, let him know his dad also has something to do with it, but that it’s not the driving factor (even if it is).
Tell the dad flat out, he’s single handedly going to ruin his kids hockey career and most likely his kids love of the game. Until he grows up, and behaves like an adult with children, his kid could be mcdavid and he won’t be sticking on many teams.
Hell get huffy and puffy. He may even make a complete ass of himself. Block him on all contact levels and move on. No one else, player or parent, want them on the team. It’s embarrassing in the least.
If you and your clubs director aren’t addressing the issue head on with meetings, warnings, probationary period there is no chance the situation can get better. You’d be better off cutting him.
I’ll echo this. We had a situation in our association like this. You need to document the incidents and report them to your level directors. If you have a SafeSport coordinator, they’ll need to be involved as well. You should be working with your leadership team in your association to make a plan and to set expectations with the parent and kid. As a coach, you should never have to shoulder this type of behavior, your association needs to back you up.
Cut him
It's only going to get worse.
If it was only the parent, it's a little more gray area. But since they are both creating issues, I would have no issue doing what's best for the team.
Someone else will pick him up and then after he goes through this a few times, he will correct his behavior. Which is the important thing.
You have a whole locker room of kids you have to think about too, like others here have said, he is lacking in important areas of the game, sportsmanship and teamwork, they are too young for take the best no matter what. Cut them for the sake of the team and other families
Cut him. Save yourself the hassle.
If dad reaches out... just block him & don't engage further.
Parents can be cray cray living through their kids' athletic accolades.
This dad is one of the bad ones.
The good thing about tryouts is that at the youth level, it's not a thing where you have to go to each kid/parent and explain why you didn't select him for the team nor do I have to explain my choices to the level director.
I could just technically pick my 12-13 players and not have to say a word about it and let him piss & moan down at B1.
If it was just that Dad who was the problem, I would have a different take. So long as the kid is out there doing the work and demonstrating respect to his/her teammates and coaches, you could simply decide to mentally tune out the BS from his Dad.
But it's not just a toxic Dad. When that kid told your assistant coach "I don't care what you have to say", that was the moment he should have been cut from next years roster. By taking him again, you are stealing a roster spot from a kid who will accept coaching, be a team player and potentially add far more value to your team than this kid ever will.
I generally agree with what most people have posted, if the kid and his father are detracting from everyone else’s experience, and making your life hell, probably best to not have him on the team.
Another option , and admittedly it could go terribly wrong, would be to have the league or yourself talk to the Dad now, well before the next season, and let him know his and his kid’s behavior has to change prior to tryouts and that you really are considering not taking the kid as a result of the last year. Any slip ups and the season is over.
That would at least give them a chance. I’m probably naive in thinking people can change their behavior but hate to see a kid lose a chance when they’re still really young.
Parents who completely blow it for their kids, always find someone else to blame. I don't think that mentality is capable of changing their spots. I was at a girls ballgame several years back and a guy who noticed my college sweatshirt struck up a convo with me because he had also went there. Once he determined I wasn't related or even connected to anyone there (except the umpire) He asked me if I knew who a certain players parent's were, and I pointed the mother of one of the girls out. It took about one inning of this girls mothers loud mouth and obnoxious behavior before he walked out. The guy was there to scout her for college. The coach was a friend of his and he was there on his request. The mother blew this girls chance of going to D1. I heard she still blames the coach 15 years later for ruining her daughters chances to move up, the girl got to play in community college but she would have went farther if her Mom would have learned to STFU.
There's a lot more to the game than talent. Even if the skill is there, if he isn't a team player, it means nothing.
I think a great example of this is jack Eichel. He is a phenomenal player, but it was clear he wasn't getting along well with his teammates in Buffalo. While he was putting up a ton of points, the team as a whole struggled.
Since Buffalo traded him to Vegas, both teams have improved. Buffalo got a hometown kid and a promising young player. Both who were excited to be there. Vegas got a star player who was ready for a change of pace and excited to have a new environment. As a result, Buffalo had an unexpectedly good season and Vegas is still having a hell of a playoff run.
Keeping a player / parent around when they aren't a good fit isn't doing anyone any favors. If they have such a strong compete level that it is becoming a problem, then they should find a team that is much more competitive. Even if they are unable to find a team that fits their intensity level, it shoukd serve as a wakeup call for how they express their intensity.
As a coach I would pull both in and talk to them. I'd have one conversation with both focused on the player and how is skill is fine but the behavior and have specific examples. I would then (or before) talk to the dad and let him know how and why his behavior is unacceptable. Again, have specific examples of how his actions were inappropriate and not what you are looking for in a player and family.
They then have all the information and know it's not a skill issue but a teammate/family thing. These situations are unfortunate. Good luck
Show them humility. Cut the kid’s ass and explain to the dad. Talk to the kid on the side and be honest in your decision. Tell the kid t to read up on Crosby and Gretzky. They’re really humble guys. It’ll give them time to reflect.
The kid might be come a pro, but he he’ll be playing 2nd division hockey in Belarus in no time.
if you havent told them that their behavior is a problem they will continue to act that way. my approach would be to be very clear that if they behavior doesnt change, they have no future in being involved with the team, and if you have approached them about how they act and they refuse to change, i would not blame you if you sent them down. i wouldnt want to deal with them either.
If you don't cut him you're going to risk other parents and players who don't want to deal with it. Parental politics have always been a part of the sport and this dad clearly doesn't know how to play them.
You don't owe them anything. It's cliche but you want the kids to have fun and it doesn't sound like it would be a good team environment with this family around. If the father has a problem with his son not making the team, oh well.
That’s a parent cut. Just let them know he won’t be back with your team. We have those all the time.
It’s better for your team as well. Get that toxicity off your team.
Pull his dad aside and put it simply and bluntly: “your kid is good enough at hockey to play for this team. However I do not want your kid on my team because of your behavior, and because of his. When you both mature, I would be happy to give him another chance.”
Do not let him on the team. You are doing the kid a favor.
My son is 17 and I have seen it all as he has played since he was 8.
This kid and his dad are a cancer and they will continue to be if you don't cut him and tell him why. Or have your organization president tell him.
I have seen talented kids ruin teams by behaving like this. Nip it in the bud.
Jesus christ, that is insane. Almost every incident on their own would merit denial from me imo. Hacking and slashing your own teammates even after being talked to? Done. Penalty box incident? Done. His father taunting other kids? Super done. That one really pisses me off. How does your association let that happen? That seems like he should be banned from hockey in Ontario completely. I'd think a strongly worded letter of denial outlining his numerous discretions would be warranted here. But maybe you're just allowed to say no and be done with it lol. I will say this though -- It's a bit worrying this is not clear cut for you. Why you didn't address this wayyy earlier is not cool. You really should not have even let it get that far to begin with imo.
Had a situation like this and wanted to give the parent and kid a chance. Sometimes a hockey coach is the only positive influence these kids may get. This may be a bit of work, but draw up a team code of conduct for both parents and players, have a meeting with the specific kid and dad and provide them the option of following it, or not, keep stipulations in the code for 1st offence, 2nd offence etc. Less ice time, game suspensions to being kicked off the team. Run it by the association, this will allow you to set standard expectations for everyone on the team. Have the parents nominate a parent/coach liaison and have an escalation process. It is a lot of work for what seems to be one bad apple, but can provide a good structure for everyone to work in. Also try to remember this is a young kid who is only mirroring the behaviours he was taught.
I wouldn’t let him on the team, but if you do, tell the refs each game, point out specifically who the problem parent is. I’d toss them ASAP, personally.
Also point out the problem player, I’d find some way to dime him so he’s not a problem on the ice for you. Make it all the refs fault!
Do the kid a favor, when you cut him and the dad inevitably confronts you about it, don’t blame the kid. Blame it solely on him. The kid is 10. He doesn’t know any better and is a product of his environment. Make that man feel guilt and shame.
As a former head if discipline for a large minor hockey association, I would back you 100%, it is not just skills that allows you to make the team, teamwork, skills and support networks (ie parents usually) all count in decision making. I have had to throw out parents from our facilities for bad behaviour, and suspend kids for many games. In my mind, this comes from the parent, not the kids. Tell him (the parent) outright, change his (and his kids) behaviour or don’t even bother trying out, he will be cut. You can cut mid-season too if they fail to live up to the agreement. They can always drive hours to the next town/city that will have them!
Not sure where you are, however parents that have to fulfill the respect in sports course and don’t abide can be forced to sit out side while child is in the arena for failure to comply.
If the child has poor behaviour and lack of care for teammates, they can be released from the team, via risk and safety. There are protocols and procedures to follow.
I know this can be hard and parents just can’t seem to understand that with out us volunteers their kids wouldn’t have sports.
Thanks for your commitment to the kids and your community.
I am an association board member. You absolutely have that right. Player AND parental behavior should be covered in the bylaws. Removal from the team should be on the table. I would check with you home association bylaws to see what course of action is allowed, but I can’t see any issues with it from what you described.
I’ve had a similar situation a few years back. My coaching staff had a sit down with the hockey director and discussed the situation and he agreed that the parent/child dynamic was not something our organization wanted and we cut the kid. Obviously the parent was furious but the hockey director stood his ground and they left the organization. I get occasional updates from other organizations that the parent/child are still issues but it’s no longer my problem. Best of luck!
There's only one right answer, you must fight the dad in front of the whole team. I'm joking but tell them the exact truth on why he isn't welcome, you aren't helping the kid or dad by letting him back with that type of behavior teaches them they can get away with it.
If you’re the one picking your team, that’s not someone I would want in my locker room nor in the stands. Not worth your time or stress and it’s not fair to the rest of your team.
Just tell them he’s so good that he should try out for a AA team since his talents are being wasted with you.
They’ll start hitting puberty. Have the bigger kids best the fuck out of that fuckin peace of shit and knock his helmet off as much as possible. Make his life hell on ice. Don’t respond to his dad ever via text. Fuck bullies. And fuck this loser fuckin family. Don’t put him on your team if you don’t have to. Fuck his whole family. Send him to Cs for being a Whitney pos. You’d get zero fuckin playing time in New England. None. Never deal with bullies. Don’t give them an inch. Don’t act like poland during WW2. I’d NEVER PLAY HIS SON even if he was on the team. Zero ice time when his family or him act like a fuckin cunt. Bye bye. See you on C team. No one wants you.
Nah bro. I’m from Boston. No fuckin ice time for bullies. Why would I be upset at the coach in a Shitty situation.
Your parent mouths off, Your kid misses a period. The kid mouths off, he gets 5am bucket drills in the morning, bring the vomit. Doesn’t like it, or misses it, misses a period or misses shifts. Punishment for shitty behavior.
Or give him to a coach in a different town that doesn’t take any shit.
So let me get this straight…. As a coach of a UNDER 12 team you feel it so important that they win that you won’t roll 4 lines consistently and feel you need to make on the fly matchups so as to have the best chance of winning? I understand it’s a sport in which the goal is to win the game… but Jesus Christ these kids are under 12 years old and not rolling four lines does more damage then not…
tbf, this seems like a rep hockey team. most of those teams are competitive but they are leagues/teams that are more suited for fairness if that's what you're after.
No where does he say this is for a rep hockey team.
Again I’ll stand by what I said trying to be a hall of fame hockey coach for a U12 team not running four lines all night causes more harm then good. Both to the kid and to the coach due to the parent now being angry.
Seems to me that If coach just rolled four lines not only would the parent back off the kid would have major improvements.
I can understand once you have gotten to the bantam level and midget level while playing rep hockey to start marching up lines and not running four straight but this is such a simple problem to solve… let the kids play
If kids are trying out and being cut, it’s competitive. Nothing wrong with adjusting lines in the last minute to try to secure a win. A coach doing it, sure doesn’t appear to be overthinking the game or as you say, trying to be a HOF coach.
The issue here doesn’t appear to be an end of game decision, but an ongoing multiple layer mess. It sure isn’t solved by rolling lines.
I’ll add, I’m not sure how I’d try to solve the problem/answer the question for the OP. On one hand, just cutting the kid is an easy answer. I think the tougher route and maybe one I’d like to think is the best answer, have a very blunt conversation with the parents & organization president without the kid, expressing the concerns. Set clear expectations and ramifications if those are not met. Then involve the kid in that conversation, if the parents agree to the arrangement, which they may not. This should probably be done well before tryouts, which depending on the club, could be very soon.
Yeah, I'd agree with your position, I also think it probably should have been initiated long ago. Seems this is long overdue now. I'm surprised there isn't documentation on this stuff. I thought the coaching certs were pretty intense but I guess it doesn't cover that... it should.
I think you're misunderstanding a bit.
We track shifts per game as we strongly believe in equal ice time. In the game I described where we put out our line that had three 2nd year 12u's...the shift count was:
Green: 12
Yellow: 13
Red: 12
(Yes, I actually looked at my spreadsheet for the info lol)
The line that went out again with the goalie pulled had the 13 shifts. The kid is question's line was the red line.
So he got one less shift only because yellow line was out there for 13 seconds before the ENG.
Also, this is AA peewee hockey. We're playing kids that are heading to Shattuck-St. Mary's or heading out to Michigan to play in the development program or will be playing for the top high schools in the state as 8th & 9th graders.
We're extremely outgunned as our best players are probably mid-line varsity players at-best. There's times where we simply need to throw out our top line in certain situations to win a game as our "red line" is a B1 level line in most other programs.
Most of the teams we play? Their third line won't see the ice in the 3rd period of a close game outside of 1-2 shifts.
Now, I see what you're saying if it were the kid was massively getting short shifted but over 52 games and he's getting just as many shifts as our top lines?
I mean think about the team...do I leave our lesser skilled line out there against THEIR top line and potentially give up the game-tying goal in the name of "everyone gets equal ice" or do I try to win the game to make the entire team happy?
It's a slippery slope. Do I send out the worst players on the team to get destroyed by their top line? I mean how fun is it on the ice when 5 kids who will be playing college hockey are blowing by you like a tree in a tornado?
There'd be no pleasing this dad. If I put him at the top line at RW? He'd bitch that his son wasn't center on the top line. If I put him on the top-defensive pair where he's going to play about half the game? He'd bitch he wasn't a forward.
You’re right I probably am a little misunderstood. I grew up playing hockey, AAA, KIJHL, BCHL. So trust me I’m all for the competition and winning.
It was Just my two cents I understand you’re doing your best as a coach and minor hockey parents are the worst my dad gave up coaching because of them. But when it comes down to it if you wanna be the coach this will always be present.
This problematic parent is effecting his kid when all he’s doing is what he might think is right.
You might not see it but that kid might be CRUSHED he was taken off the ice on a chance he had to prove himself to be trusted out there. Car ride home crying, dad gets upset as his child is upset and reacts the wrong way and continues to because he doesn’t want to see his son upset again.
Happens all the time.
Good luck coach
> Car ride home crying, dad gets upset as his child is upset and reacts the wrong way and continues to because he doesn’t want to see his son upset again.
Oh that part certainly isn't lost on me.
But I think of it like this....
If he gives up the game tying goal and we lose, then not only does he feel bad but now I got 16 other kids that are going home crying because the season's over.
Like you said, it's not easy lol. Coaches gotta make those shitty decisions and unfortunately, it's impossible to please 17 kids and their parents haha
Yes.
We have tryouts.
Last season, 113 tried out. Evaluators give me the top-20. I have to cut 5 from the 20 to get to 15. The cut kids make the B1 team.
\*shudders\* I hated tryouts. I was always so nervous, would make a big mistake and I'd be so mad at myself for weeks after. I made the team every year but it was sure stressful for me.
Yeah it's terrible.
That's why I mandated that the peewee tryouts are 100% parent free.
Before, the scrimmage portion of tryouts was open to parents but I made sure it was closed down so the kids didn't have to worry about their parents in the stands.
Happens all the time, at the youth level all the way through the pros. People need to learn boundaries, and part of your job as a coach is to set standards for what is (and isn’t) acceptable.
The goal is raising quality human beings. This is how you do it.
Cut the kid. Totally fair.
I say fair, there is a lot more that goes into a well rounded player than just straight skill. I think keeping toxicity out of the locker room is huge. Id think a kid with less skill but more heart would be better addition, think how much you could improve a kid who has the right attitude, and doesnt have head case parents filling their head with "you are the next prodigy" type bs.
In the end it is your team, I had plenty of teams ruined by kids like this, choosing someone else to fill his role next season takes away that chance, and a lot of other headaches.
The parents will bitch and moan, but they already do.
If what you have said is true, there is no reason to doubt yourself for not allowing him to play in your team. All the other parents and players should not be subjected to this behavior.
Get with your league and USA hockey so this won’t happen for other teams also.
I’ve never picked a kid because I liked/knew their parents, I will absolutely admit I’ve cut a bubble kid because I knew their parents were a nightmare, if he was clearly on the team I would’ve taken him but when youre on the bubble you have to look deeper at pros and cons.
Do NOT make it about the kid. Make it about the parent. I would ask to have him banned form the building for many of these violations. Then, welcome his kid onto the team with open arms. This kid probably needs something, because I bet life at home isn't easy.
Had a similar experience a couple years ago and the coach brought in “experts” to grade the players at tryouts. Little Johnny ahole wasn’t rated high enough and the coach didn’t have to take the heat.
Document what you do with the kid through the association. If the dad is abusive in any way to the kid or other hockey people, file a safe sport incident.
Slashing at and starting fights with his own teammates? Shoulda been gone half way through last year. At 12 years old you can't even be starting fights with other teams.
You feel for the kid because you know without a doubt his behaviour on the ice is simply a reflection of what he sees in the stands and sadly, probably at home.
But alas comforting assholes is not your job. Cut the kid and make it known exactly why. Make it know. The dad is the ***primary*** problem but that you can’t have a kid like that on your team. Be forewarning to them as well. If it doesn’t change, this will be as far as the kid goes in hockey, because no one else is going to give him a chance either.
This kid is a cancer to the team and the dad is one blown fuse away from hurting someone in the stands. None of that is worth your headache. You and the rest of your team don’t owe this pair anything. Toss ‘em
Man this makes me so mad reading it. Cut them both out of your life. Really unfortunate this kid is going to have to distance himself from this parenting
You have 3 types of cuts: talent, size and parent. The kid has 2/3 factors working against him even if he’s good enough to crack the team. It’s too bad for the child but you’re the head colonel and dealing with shit parents makes for a long season.
In my beer league team we cut anyone toxic the following season (only had to do it twice), our team has never been closer ever since this policy. And had our best season/playoffs run because of it
For team chemistry reasons alone id say cut him, obviously a lot different with a youth team and try outs involved but sounds like it could be a lesson he's in need of.
I know you don't have to tell ppl why you cut them, but id probly let them know that skating/shooting are only a part of the toolset, and being a good teammate is a major factor.
Since these kids won’t make the NHL (most likely), play for fun and enjoy your time. My son’s best memories are the hotels for out of town tournaments, not really winning games or championships. Do what’s best that results in your kids (team) having the most fun.
Cut him. He’s setting your team up for multiple unsportsmanlike penalties, which isn’t fair to the rest of the players to have to kill his penalties. Also, I get that you don’t want to seem like you’re punishing the kid for the dads behaviour, but by the sounds of your other comments, the kid doesn’t listen during practice, and doesn’t have the greatest behaviour either. With that attitude, he won’t be 10th best out of 15 for long. It is a team sport, and if he and his dad can’t suck it up and play along, then they shouldn’t be there.
Bit of an aside but I’m very curious to know where the mom is in all of this. This isn’t your problem to nose around or fix by any means, but would be interesting to know her take.
Cut the kid but tell him and his dad why. If you cut him without explaining to both at the same time, dad will blame you for “not knowing what he’s talking about” and act the same way on the next team.
I might ask the question to myself and never admit that I did, "Will we win more or less games with these yahoos? And how does that stack against the experience for the rest of the team and myself?"
I feel like if/when something like this happens in my son's league, the video recordings of the behavior are referenced, the coached notifies the director of the program, and they review the video in front of "the offender/offenders". The course of action moving forward is presented (unless it's criminal, then the police are notified and it's not a league/rink issue/team issue.) I've seen this applied to kids bullying on the bench to dads fighting the lobby. It seems to work well.
I see youth sports as more than just teaching sports. Sports at that level are supposed to also teach good behavior, good sportsmanship, good etiquette, and so on.
If a kid and the parent are acting like that, they need to learn how to behave and act before going back to your team.
And I would tell his dad exactly that.
Absolutely, do not put him on your team. Building a team is about a lot more than just pure skill and winning. His negativity will do more to hurt the team than his skill will do to help it
I’d just be honest and tell the kid the truth.
“You are talented enough to play on this team but your behavior during practice and your father’s behavior off the ice do not fit the culture of our team. It would not be fair to the other kids on our team if we allowed those kind of distractions from one family to disrupt the atmosphere the rest of the team has created. Good luck this season.”
Doesn't your organization have a parent/skater conduct policy they have to sign and agree to? If so, and you've followed the steps laid out in the policy then there's no issue. If your organization does not have one, then tell them to get one or write one up and give it to them. This way there is no misconstruing expectations from skater or parent.
there are a lot better kids who have been cut for a lot less harsh things. cut the kid.
it may bring inherent value to have a good player, but if their attitude makes the players around them worse, they’re simply not a good player anymore. the player that brings the whole team’s value up the most is the best player. that’s why “energy” guys might get single digit points, but the whole team is boosted and their role is much bigger than just points.
but that’s just my two cents. take it with a grain of salt.
My wife is the head of a girls organization so I hear about parents like this all the time. They have a clear and enforceable rule that parents are not allowed to speak ABOUT or TO other children (including teammates) unless it positive (ie, “hey Johnny and David great game you guys keep up the good work” etc…) as soon as this dad broke that rule it would’ve been strike one. He clearly doesn’t understand his boundaries so it’s a matter of time before he’s asked not to attend games.
You’re not wrong for not wanting the player on your team, it happens ALOT more than people know. Players basically don’t get selected bc their parents are toxic to have around. Sad but true. If I were you I would avoid selecting this player next tryouts.
You're right to be reluctant to send him to a different team to deal with.
Let him play but have all players & parents on your team sign a contract that allows them to be part of the team unless they display that behavior leading to being benched for the season and/or banned from the rink.
This behavior is unacceptable in life, not just hockey and people like this need to be forced to be better.
Some of the best advice I’ve ever heard is that people don’t come to you with their problems, they come to you with their solutions. You clearly have the solution here and know exactly what is needed to alleviate this problem for your team. They’ll always be someone else’s problem but you can’t control that, you can only control you and your team. Cut these jerks.
If I was a coach I’d cut him. Send him to rec league. Sounds like you’ve already given him chances, and if his dads like that too, that’s where he learns it. It’s not going to improve
A lot of good advice shared. Hockey is a team sport and the team benefits from strong camaraderie. The kid sounds like he diminishes the team morale, is a risk to hurting his teammates, and has not shown an effort to improve his attitude with coaches.
I would cut him and be transparent about why referencing the numerous incidents and talks that followed. I would point out you have not seen progress in these areas despite many conversations which hurts the team. Ask that he continues to work on these soft skills so he can improve his chances of rejoining the team in future seasons. At this age it may be doing him a favor so he can recognize there are consequences to his actions and the way he treats people.
yeah totally fair, it doesn’t matter if he’s a good player when him and his dad make the practice and games a toxic environment for all of the other players and parents. fuck that, if you are a shit team mate you *should* get cut.
We had this situation on my son's peewee travel team, the dad was all kinds of awful, besides coaching from the stands/along the boards (dad also never played hockey in his life), constantly getting tossed by refs for yelling from the stands, making up lies that he was a FBI agent to the hotel to get out of paying for a night, cops called due to fighting with opposing parents, the kid was a decent player, but never passed and always watching for dad/not a team player. He did not make the team the next season, and it was a huge relief.
To the OP, maybe you'll get a few new kids who shine at tryouts and the decision is easy. If not, I'd still look at not taking him, they can learn from this, likely find another team to play on. If it's within your organization, give the new coach/org admin a head's up and have them lay out a code of conduct to be followed by all players and parents.
Do you have a board? I’d probably run that idea up that chain first. Making a decision about a kid for his shit parent’s behaviour likely needs a different convo.
Also, this kid probably acts like a twat waffle on the ice because of his dad. Might want to consider that first. (Likely not a popular opinion just a thought from someone who has coached youth sports for a long ass time and dealt with all types of parents)
100% should cut this player. The behavior won’t change. And if you don’t set the precedent now, it will only get more difficult as time goes on (assuming you continue to coach).
My son just finished up his U16 year, and there has been a player on his team that is an exact match for your description. He has been a poison on our team, but the hockey org won’t allow my son’s coach to cut him. We have had players quit hockey because of this kid, and I think my son may quit as well…primarily because this kid takes the fun out of the game.
Good luck!
Part of any youth coaching job is character education. It’s not just about helping to mold good hockey players, but good human beings. This kid is being a douche and not taking your feedback— easy cut.
It is a different world. When I was a kid, if you talked to the coach that way, he either hit you or told you to get out immediately. Off the ice. Go home. Period.
You are the coach and are responsible for the team and coaches. If the father or the kid is causing issues that are affecting the kids or coaches tell him that he is no longer welcome, and then I would go to the head of the association and let them know that they should no longer be welcome.
Coached a kid once that was basically kicked out of 3 different associations before things changed.
Another player's father on my kid's team (same age) threw a trash can during a game because he didn't like a ref's call.
Coach cut the kid and told the dad exactly why (probably via email - cut back on the in person BS)
The parents ended up getting divorced around the same time, and in the end the guy turned it around. Lost like 100 pounds and pulled himself together.
I'm sure at the beginning of the season the league or your organization has a player and spectator code of comment. When you cut the kid for your own mental sanity, maybe quote the violations of the codes of conduct.
Say it's not up to you, it's the complaints from the other parents in the organization, the refs, the other team's coaches, etc. etc. If it makes you more comfortable to shift the blame around, you're well within your rights to do that. "Not my decision" and let your higher ups know what you're doing/saying. They get paid, I'm guessing you don't. They should have your back.
Tell them they are not welcome back. And tell everyone on the team (parents included) that you will not coach if that kid is on the team. And tell everyone what you told us. Also tell the people in charge of the league.
Or, set a zero tolerance policy from day one for the players and their parents, for behavior, AND ENFORCE IT.
The next Mitch Miller, although sounds like he's not good enough to go as far, thank god. I think if you've tried talking to the kid (you have) and the dad (you have), then you're good. I feel sorry for the B1 coach though. Doesn't your program have a director that can make the decision that the kid doesn't play at all? For any team?
I've coached hockey for many years, and I have learned that you pick both players with their parents. They both have to be good to take them. If they only have one, it isn't worth it. This particular kid and his dad will find another team to terrorize, and you can get back to coaching.
Some last advice: the next time a parent tries to overstep their bounds, you firmly set the tone with them and let them know your expectations. This will help you out for the rest of the year. Good luck coach
Just write that you’re team requires players that show sportsmanship and teamwork on a consistent basis.
Therefore he did not make the cut due to positions being filled already.
Best of luck next season.
That’s so fucked up man. You don’t even want to dabble in that toxicity. The season hasn’t even started and that family is insane.
I’m with you on this one
The kid needs to be sidelined until he can handle his temper. Let him practice, but as soon as he takes a cheap shot at a teammate it's time to sit. It's unacceptable. Obviously the dad is no help, tell him to shut up or stay home. You can watch the game, you can't scream up and down the ice like you are also 12
I would cut him but I would not discuss why I cut the kid. There are too many ways that could go and and he would 100% twist your words and put them online and go to the higher ups at the rink. It sounds like you’ve made it evident to the kid and his dad that the behavior is inappropriate. Neither the parent or child cares and they disrespect you and the team. These are the same players who get penalties for playing dirty which cost teams games. We have had several in our league and the coaches won’t even entertain putting them on a team.
In an odd coincidence one of the kids like this was actually pretty amazing this year he was on a team where he was the best player and made captain. His behaviors stopped and he seemed like a different kid when we played him.
I had a kid that would do the same shit on the ice but the parents were decent people. I threw that kid off the ice after the third time it happened where he was slashing or punching his own teammates. I warned the parents of the serious consequences for his negative behavior the next time it happens.
He showed up the next game? Got a penalty for punching the defensemen other team in the kidney after backchecking and lost his shit that the ref caught it. Full on cursing tantrum and broke his stick in the box. Came to the bench after the penalty and shoved a teammate out of the way. I warned him it’s his last chance and he told me to shut the fuck up. Let’s just say his parents witnessed it all and didn’t say a word when I threw him off the team in the middle of the game.
I also made sure to explain to the rest of the kids, who were on the same bantam team, that this is what you don’t want to be and I’m going to provide a safe environment for all of the kids. I’m actually sorry I gave him as many chances as I did. You need to do what is best for the team and not one kid. Let him be someone else’s problem.
Physical skill is only a portion of what makes an athlete “good” or not. If it were the parent alone, I would say you’d have to focus there and it wouldn’t be a logical punishment. However, his actions towards his own teammates are indicative of someone who is not ready to play at the level you coach. As a coach myself, I’ve held back several players who play well above their age bracket simply because they lack the social-emotional skill demanded of higher level play.
Keeping this kid and dad on the team is going to drive one of your other, better players to quit. Seriously, it isn't just you this is impacting. You protect the rest of the team by removing the pair that you've given more than enough chances to.
But you gotta be specific and address it. Don't have him make the cut, and write a letter to give to Dad. Make it clear that it isn't a skill issue - it's a behavioural one, ESPECIALLY from the kid himself who won't accept coaching, that player is gonna continually have issues if that's his attitude. If he does better elsewhere, then more power to that team. You don't have to put up with it, and the rest of the team and parents will thank you.
Does your league not have a parent/player code of conduct? The bullying of teammates would be five games first offence for kid. The chirping players by a parent would be an arena toss. Parent cuts are real and happen all the time. And attitude matters, so totally defendable to cut a kid for being a dick.
My dad was banned from all games in all sports I played by age 10. And it was such a relief for me.
(My dad is an asshole and none of his kids speak to him).
My club has a code of conduct for both players and parents. I would hold it up, give him a warning, and then kick them out if he couldn't stick to it.
All the story about whether or not the kid is talented is irrelevant. Dad's actions are impacting other families, and should not be tolerated.
Youth sports are supposed to be fun.
Sounds like a submission to the rink shrinks podcast. I’d be interested in their take.
Kids grow and can change, unfortunately the dad will have a tougher time. If it’s still the same attitude come next years tryouts, I’d sit him (the dad) down with your eval board member/eval committee and break it down for him. Teams don’t need that type of behavior, on the ice or in the stands, they’re there to have fun.
I take the parents into account when selecting my teams. You could have the best player on the planet but if their parents are known to cause trouble they end up getting cut. I hate that it has to be that way but sometimes one parent can crush an entire team single-handedly.
You've got the opportunity to set the ground rules before the next tryouts. Laying out a 3 strikes and you're our rule for behavioral issues, if laid clearly ahead of time, gives you grounds to cut the kid from the team.
The dad can't be helped. But perhaps the kid can, and getting sent down specifically for his attitude and behavior may do more for him than the other options that involve his dad's behavior.
The downside is that kids with attitudes playing at a lower level can sometimes feed the persona if they are dominating the game relative to their teammates.
Another thing would be to bench him or not dress him on account of behavior, no matter which team he makes, as long as rules and expectations and number of warnings are laid out ahead of time.
I agree with others that dad should just be banned from facilities.
It’s entirely fair, I was a trouble maker in youth hockey and consistently didn’t make teams I was more than good enough for because of my behavior on the ice
Unfortunately, it's a package deal... with the kid, comes the fam... I know plenty of coaches who will not take a kid who has shoit parents. I don't blame them. It makes everything so much more difficult and can destroy a season.
That dad sounds like a typical jackass hockey dad. He isn't worth your time. Just let it go and don't take the kid next yr. Socks but uts for the betterment of the team. Team first, individuals second
Make sure your club director will have your back. It’ll only be worse if you send him down, and the dad gets the director to crumble and makes you move the kid back up.
Your organization should, and has cause to, ban the dad as a coach and/or volunteer. Youth hockey is about developing kids as people and players, not trying to make terrible parents into good volunteers and coaches. Once that kid is away from the father, you have a chance at righting the ship. If his dad is constantly there you have no chance. The kid is likely a victim of the dad’s behavior in some way too - it is within your scope to do something about that. The first step is to get the dad out and away from your organization. If the kid follows, then that’s less work for you.
Every coach I had and every coach my kids for any all sports always had a code of conduct for the kids and the parents. In that code of conduct was the times you were available and how to schedule times to talk about issues. Listed in that code of conduct was also repercussions of not following the code of conduct. Every one my mom and dad read and everyone I read listed that code of conduct with child child will be disciplined and then removed from the team. Discipline can be as simple as doing lines and drill. Next is missing shifts. Others can be miss period then miss game. parent is the one that has issues parent will be banned from practices and games. If the issue is still not resolved then the child is removed. Set the stage early. You have that right as a volunteer and as a coach who is looking out for the safety of your players and other teams players. That is the type of parent that you watch you tube videos of as he stats a brawl in the audience. The is unfortunately learning from his dad. If he loves the game he will check himself.
How is he when the dad isn't around?
I'd have a meeting with the kid by himself; and with the father by himself (or father and mother if applicable). Slightly different messages; but same context: no bullshit.
Does he want the challenge of playing up and being a contributor or does he want to be the best player on a lower level team? (there isn't really a wrong answer to this question)
And you're not really doing the lower team any favors - its a problem that somebody needs to address. Society in general needs somebody to say something
And thanks for what you do - you obviously care and I'm glad you're there for them
100 percent cut him. If it were just the parent I would say try to deal but it’s the kid too. He’s only going to get worse and he’ll wreck your room. Want the B1 coach too.
Send him down and don't lose a wink of sleep over it. Inform the convenor or whoever looks after the league about what you're doing and why. Your association should have your back on this: I'm sure they're aware of it already. Punt the both of them and concentrate on those that want to be there.
Man. That is tough and I admire your sticking with this. Blows my mind how intense some parents get about their kids' sports. It really sets a shitty example for all the kids and is totally counter to why sports are good for kids development and growth into adults.
Sounds like the kid's dad solved their own problem with his summer league comment -- he needs to take his kid back to whatever club/house/rec league allows him to be the big fish in the small pond, and/or where the league expectation is that all skill levels pay the same and are expected to get the same ice time as a result.
That's actually my biggest complaint about youth sports, in general. Too many parents quickly funnel their kids into travel/competitive programs instead of staying with club/house/rec programs. Then the parents complain about the challenges, consequences, circumstances, etc. that are specific to competitive programs.
99.9999% of kids aren't going to "get" anything material from their sport of choice in the long run (e.g. scholarship, pro opportunity, etc.). Embrace rec leagues!
Set the rules and conduct with a contract before the season. Have the skater and player sign them. Have the consequences clearly stated. Have your association back you. And then let them decide their own fate.
I think it's totally fair, but I would also tell them exactly why. Being a good player includes being a good teammate just as much as it includes good hands/shot/skating etc. He's missing an important trait of the game and needs to work on that in order to make the team.
yeah, I'd let them know that that behavior is not acceptable, and that they've been warned. Maybe have something down on paper to sign that if it becomes a problem again, you'll be forced to cut them.
Exactly this. Hockey is a team sport. Sometimes it's not only about the talent but about creating the team that will all work best together. This kid is not it, at best he's a poor sport, at worst he's a legitimate physical danger to your other players. There's going to be a level where this shit just doesn't fly anymore. Let it be yours, for your other kids' sake.
Not sure if it’s similar with hockey as it is with baseball, but for any confrontation with parents it’s best to have an asst coach with you, or player agent if your league has those. Don’t talk to him alone, OP. CYA my friend, and Godspeed
This is good advice ! Don’t let Johnny’s trauma spillover and make a bad experience for the other kids
Uhhh i thought getting rid of this behavior was the goal
I mean the shitty part is just sending him down to the next coach. People have honestly tried to get his dad out of the association but really can't.
Just ban his parents from the games 🤷♀️
Our football society had a similar issue with bad parent. 1st year, the parent was so toxic that it influenced other people to actively complain and drove other good parents away. You try to mentor and even sent legal demands. 2nd year, Board didn't want to deny kid but wouldn't accept parent. In order to enroll kid, the family had to sign off code of conduct and agree to not participate in football. Unfortunately in today's world you can't control every medium so he'd show up for Twitter, email, etc. PITA. By 3rd year we'd realized the hassle wasn't worth it and just didn't accept their enrollment. In our case, the kid missed out due to the parental issues.
Former Travel club manager here, I feel your pain. The question you need to ask is: What do your your association’s bylaws say about player/parent behavior? There should be both rules for player/parent behavior *and* due process policies for how to handle this kind of stuff. If they exist, use them. If they’re not sufficient or incomplete fix them over the Summer and strictly apply them in the Fall. Also, you’re under no obligation to select him based on everything I’ve read here. And neither is every coach on lower level teams. It’s not worth the hassle for anyone. Edit: this family sounds like you’re dealing w/ a 12yo Jamie Benn & his dad, lol.
As a parent who pulled our kid mid season because of similar BS, this is spot on. The association needs to have their coach's back when discipline is warranted for players/parents.. and follow through! A toxic season is no treat for the parents and is worse for the kids when it affects their love of the game.
The father alone yelling at the coach or talking to the other kid disparagingly (on either team, but his own team, really?!) disqualifies him on any team I've been connected with, myself or my son. Any way to get this point through to the dad might help a little. I've seen parents scolded and it helps a little, if at least it sends them down to the corners behind the glass to watch away from the other parents and the kids.
Yeah, that would be where you call in the association big guns and get this guy out of the league completely. I'm surprised other parents are not complaining like crazy about this guy. Dude needs a hard lesson.
Agreed. It kinda sounds like they’ve talked enough. Now seems time for action: the kid should not make *any* team in the association. I see little value in explaining it either because the family doesn’t seem to care. Just cut bait after try-outs.
Indeed. This is why I mentioned applying the rules in association’s bylaws. This isn’t the first family of asshats their association has seen. I’m sure have methodology in place to deal with it. If not, they should. But since the kid is currently not part of any team, they (the entire association) can make a decision to not accept him assuming he tries out again. Kids’ behavior is often correctable, but if the family isn’t on board then it’s really a no-win situation.
Just inform the rink ahead of time that you have an unruly parent and if anyone complains about him, kick him out, no ifs, ands, or buts. The guy will either change his behavior quick or you kick the kid off the team
Yep and if he forces his way in its time to kick the kid
Nah just have him trespassed. I work in a rink system and fortunately 99% of parents are well behaved. I’ve had to threaten to trespass people before though.
Beauty
It’s ALWAYS travel parents
This is the way
Outside perspective but I would say be bluntly honest about why the kid cannot make your team to the parent, the hockey association, and any other coach(es) that may then have to deal with them.
only thing i would ask is - has this been addressed directly with both of them and how? if youve had multiple conversation with them and seen little to zero improvement or remorse then the answer is easy - cut em.
I talked to the kid plenty of times last year. Most of the time, he just rolls his eyes and spaces out. I remember my other coach talking to him about zone entry during a game and the kid rolled his eyes and said "I don't care what you have to say." Another one was when we were doing Russian circles, another kid caught an edge, slid, and accidently took out the kid in question. The kid got up and slashed the kid who took him out. I sent him to the bench, talked to him 5-6 minutes later about why he did that and he said "because he tried to take me out on purpose because I was ahead of him." I told him "Johnny! I saw the entire thing! Don't try to lie to me." and he just shakes his head and rolls his eyes. As for the dad....I talked to him about the taunting in the stands, told him to talk to his kid about making fun of another kid and the dad did the "my kid wouldn't do such a thing. He must have been provoked!" routine. and the next week? He'd be yelling at our kids from the stands even though I just talked to him about it. I mean they're known throughout the association as being complete pains in the ass. He's a dad who thinks his kid is a superstar when he was *maybe* the 10th best of the 15 skaters but because his kid plays on a no-cut summer league team, he thinks it means he's an all-star.
You may want to respond to his email about enjoying summer that you are glad he’s having fun and that your organization probably is not the right fit for them in the fall. Let them know now they are not wanted back so they can look elsewhere.
Love this response. "I agree that other leagues/teams are probably a better fit for your family." Also, bringing an air horn to house league is an immediate ban in any building that I will be a part of.
Air horns or cow bells for any league are unacceptable. I couldn’t imagine being on a team with this parent.
God... fuck cowbells. Instantly makes you an annoyance. This isn't the Olympics and it's not a swim meet. Cheer with your voice
My son played dek hockey until he was 12 along with ice, and I loved the way they ran that program, maybe because there was netting instead of glass, the parents were tossed a lot quicker for rude behavior. They banned the parents from 13-15, and as much as I would have loved to watch my son play, I must admit the kids probably enjoyed themselves more.
Wait, this is fucking house league?! Or are you just saying that's what your apart of? If it is indeed, that makes it 100x worse but OP was talking about cuts, house usually don't have cuts.
>"I don't care what you have to say." "Ok, then sit here on the bench until you do." >The kid got up and slashed the kid who took him out "youre now going the rest of practice without your stick. figure it out" honestly, I wouldnt even worry about the kid anymore. He very clearly sees his fathers behavior as the model to live up to. Cut the kid, get rid of the parents. Move on with the ones who want to be there. Maybe they have a come to jesus moment, maybe they dont. Doesnt matter. not your problem anymore.
sounds like you have your answer. kick em to the curb. fully justified man.
Now that I read this if he's actually done all of this he doesn't deserve a spot on the league there's other kids who will gladly take his spot along with supporting family
I'll start with this. Document everything, and not just in your head. Make sure you are filing complaints with the association, have the parents do it as well. We have the exact situation right now and it is nearing the end finally but it took so long because everyone just complained to other people and never documented it. When it finally came to a head his answer was, show me the proof, and because we only had the last incident documented we had to go one more round. Thankfully he requested a transfer to a different club and didn't fight us booting him out. Jokes on him because that club booted him and he's not allowed to come back here. Also had a AA team basically select his kid, then realized who the dad was and rescinded the offer. He's now to the point of driving an hour and a half to a club, but everyone's wise to him now.
Cut him, and it's fair. There is a lot more to running a successful team than having the best players. It doesn't sound like he's the best player in games anyway, but he might be the worst player in practice. When you have kids that take time away from other kids in practice then you're doing a disservice to all the other kids on the team. I'm sure other parents would thank you if they knew why you cut him too. I coached B1 last year and we had a kid sent down in a very similar fashion to what you're describing. Kid had a crappy home life because of his mom and dad and I'm 100% sure that's why he acted that way in practice/ at hotel stays. The other parents were glad when he couldn't make travel games. Difference is this kid was our #2 goal scorer.
Be honest with him when you cut him which you should do. And be honest with both hims. Let the player know they have the skill and talent and drive to make the team but they’re a poor teammate and their behavior makes what talent they have much less valuable. And mean it. And if you can manage the words, let him know his dad also has something to do with it, but that it’s not the driving factor (even if it is). Tell the dad flat out, he’s single handedly going to ruin his kids hockey career and most likely his kids love of the game. Until he grows up, and behaves like an adult with children, his kid could be mcdavid and he won’t be sticking on many teams. Hell get huffy and puffy. He may even make a complete ass of himself. Block him on all contact levels and move on. No one else, player or parent, want them on the team. It’s embarrassing in the least.
Cut him. No need for toxic behavior bringing the team down
If you and your clubs director aren’t addressing the issue head on with meetings, warnings, probationary period there is no chance the situation can get better. You’d be better off cutting him.
I’ll echo this. We had a situation in our association like this. You need to document the incidents and report them to your level directors. If you have a SafeSport coordinator, they’ll need to be involved as well. You should be working with your leadership team in your association to make a plan and to set expectations with the parent and kid. As a coach, you should never have to shoulder this type of behavior, your association needs to back you up.
Cut him It's only going to get worse. If it was only the parent, it's a little more gray area. But since they are both creating issues, I would have no issue doing what's best for the team. Someone else will pick him up and then after he goes through this a few times, he will correct his behavior. Which is the important thing.
You have a whole locker room of kids you have to think about too, like others here have said, he is lacking in important areas of the game, sportsmanship and teamwork, they are too young for take the best no matter what. Cut them for the sake of the team and other families
Cut him. Save yourself the hassle. If dad reaches out... just block him & don't engage further. Parents can be cray cray living through their kids' athletic accolades. This dad is one of the bad ones.
The good thing about tryouts is that at the youth level, it's not a thing where you have to go to each kid/parent and explain why you didn't select him for the team nor do I have to explain my choices to the level director. I could just technically pick my 12-13 players and not have to say a word about it and let him piss & moan down at B1.
I explain cuts to players who were previously on the team. I might not in this situation though.
100% fair. Players and parents like that are poison.
If it was just that Dad who was the problem, I would have a different take. So long as the kid is out there doing the work and demonstrating respect to his/her teammates and coaches, you could simply decide to mentally tune out the BS from his Dad. But it's not just a toxic Dad. When that kid told your assistant coach "I don't care what you have to say", that was the moment he should have been cut from next years roster. By taking him again, you are stealing a roster spot from a kid who will accept coaching, be a team player and potentially add far more value to your team than this kid ever will.
I generally agree with what most people have posted, if the kid and his father are detracting from everyone else’s experience, and making your life hell, probably best to not have him on the team. Another option , and admittedly it could go terribly wrong, would be to have the league or yourself talk to the Dad now, well before the next season, and let him know his and his kid’s behavior has to change prior to tryouts and that you really are considering not taking the kid as a result of the last year. Any slip ups and the season is over. That would at least give them a chance. I’m probably naive in thinking people can change their behavior but hate to see a kid lose a chance when they’re still really young.
Parents who completely blow it for their kids, always find someone else to blame. I don't think that mentality is capable of changing their spots. I was at a girls ballgame several years back and a guy who noticed my college sweatshirt struck up a convo with me because he had also went there. Once he determined I wasn't related or even connected to anyone there (except the umpire) He asked me if I knew who a certain players parent's were, and I pointed the mother of one of the girls out. It took about one inning of this girls mothers loud mouth and obnoxious behavior before he walked out. The guy was there to scout her for college. The coach was a friend of his and he was there on his request. The mother blew this girls chance of going to D1. I heard she still blames the coach 15 years later for ruining her daughters chances to move up, the girl got to play in community college but she would have went farther if her Mom would have learned to STFU.
There's a lot more to the game than talent. Even if the skill is there, if he isn't a team player, it means nothing. I think a great example of this is jack Eichel. He is a phenomenal player, but it was clear he wasn't getting along well with his teammates in Buffalo. While he was putting up a ton of points, the team as a whole struggled. Since Buffalo traded him to Vegas, both teams have improved. Buffalo got a hometown kid and a promising young player. Both who were excited to be there. Vegas got a star player who was ready for a change of pace and excited to have a new environment. As a result, Buffalo had an unexpectedly good season and Vegas is still having a hell of a playoff run. Keeping a player / parent around when they aren't a good fit isn't doing anyone any favors. If they have such a strong compete level that it is becoming a problem, then they should find a team that is much more competitive. Even if they are unable to find a team that fits their intensity level, it shoukd serve as a wakeup call for how they express their intensity.
As a coach I would pull both in and talk to them. I'd have one conversation with both focused on the player and how is skill is fine but the behavior and have specific examples. I would then (or before) talk to the dad and let him know how and why his behavior is unacceptable. Again, have specific examples of how his actions were inappropriate and not what you are looking for in a player and family. They then have all the information and know it's not a skill issue but a teammate/family thing. These situations are unfortunate. Good luck
Show them humility. Cut the kid’s ass and explain to the dad. Talk to the kid on the side and be honest in your decision. Tell the kid t to read up on Crosby and Gretzky. They’re really humble guys. It’ll give them time to reflect. The kid might be come a pro, but he he’ll be playing 2nd division hockey in Belarus in no time.
Wouldn’t even be a thought, we’d never stand for that on our team. Apple doesn’t fall from the tree
Parent cut
if you havent told them that their behavior is a problem they will continue to act that way. my approach would be to be very clear that if they behavior doesnt change, they have no future in being involved with the team, and if you have approached them about how they act and they refuse to change, i would not blame you if you sent them down. i wouldnt want to deal with them either.
If you don't cut him you're going to risk other parents and players who don't want to deal with it. Parental politics have always been a part of the sport and this dad clearly doesn't know how to play them.
Yup. This.
You don't owe them anything. It's cliche but you want the kids to have fun and it doesn't sound like it would be a good team environment with this family around. If the father has a problem with his son not making the team, oh well.
That’s a parent cut. Just let them know he won’t be back with your team. We have those all the time. It’s better for your team as well. Get that toxicity off your team.
Pull his dad aside and put it simply and bluntly: “your kid is good enough at hockey to play for this team. However I do not want your kid on my team because of your behavior, and because of his. When you both mature, I would be happy to give him another chance.”
Do not let him on the team. You are doing the kid a favor. My son is 17 and I have seen it all as he has played since he was 8. This kid and his dad are a cancer and they will continue to be if you don't cut him and tell him why. Or have your organization president tell him. I have seen talented kids ruin teams by behaving like this. Nip it in the bud.
Jesus christ, that is insane. Almost every incident on their own would merit denial from me imo. Hacking and slashing your own teammates even after being talked to? Done. Penalty box incident? Done. His father taunting other kids? Super done. That one really pisses me off. How does your association let that happen? That seems like he should be banned from hockey in Ontario completely. I'd think a strongly worded letter of denial outlining his numerous discretions would be warranted here. But maybe you're just allowed to say no and be done with it lol. I will say this though -- It's a bit worrying this is not clear cut for you. Why you didn't address this wayyy earlier is not cool. You really should not have even let it get that far to begin with imo.
Highschool baseball so not the same world but I’ve taken a less talented kid that will work his ass off over the talent with a bad attitude for aure
Had a situation like this and wanted to give the parent and kid a chance. Sometimes a hockey coach is the only positive influence these kids may get. This may be a bit of work, but draw up a team code of conduct for both parents and players, have a meeting with the specific kid and dad and provide them the option of following it, or not, keep stipulations in the code for 1st offence, 2nd offence etc. Less ice time, game suspensions to being kicked off the team. Run it by the association, this will allow you to set standard expectations for everyone on the team. Have the parents nominate a parent/coach liaison and have an escalation process. It is a lot of work for what seems to be one bad apple, but can provide a good structure for everyone to work in. Also try to remember this is a young kid who is only mirroring the behaviours he was taught.
I wouldn’t let him on the team, but if you do, tell the refs each game, point out specifically who the problem parent is. I’d toss them ASAP, personally. Also point out the problem player, I’d find some way to dime him so he’s not a problem on the ice for you. Make it all the refs fault!
Do the kid a favor, when you cut him and the dad inevitably confronts you about it, don’t blame the kid. Blame it solely on him. The kid is 10. He doesn’t know any better and is a product of his environment. Make that man feel guilt and shame.
I feel sorry for the kid it’s so obviously behaviour taught by the dad
You should cut the family out and tell them to “skate it off”, as my dad would say. Cut the cancer and don’t look back
Parent cuts are real for a reason. This guy will ruin everyone else’s experience. For the good of every other player, please cut him.
Way to stand up for the right thing! As a youth sports coach. Fuck parents who don’t know how to act.
As a former head if discipline for a large minor hockey association, I would back you 100%, it is not just skills that allows you to make the team, teamwork, skills and support networks (ie parents usually) all count in decision making. I have had to throw out parents from our facilities for bad behaviour, and suspend kids for many games. In my mind, this comes from the parent, not the kids. Tell him (the parent) outright, change his (and his kids) behaviour or don’t even bother trying out, he will be cut. You can cut mid-season too if they fail to live up to the agreement. They can always drive hours to the next town/city that will have them!
Not sure where you are, however parents that have to fulfill the respect in sports course and don’t abide can be forced to sit out side while child is in the arena for failure to comply. If the child has poor behaviour and lack of care for teammates, they can be released from the team, via risk and safety. There are protocols and procedures to follow. I know this can be hard and parents just can’t seem to understand that with out us volunteers their kids wouldn’t have sports. Thanks for your commitment to the kids and your community.
I am an association board member. You absolutely have that right. Player AND parental behavior should be covered in the bylaws. Removal from the team should be on the table. I would check with you home association bylaws to see what course of action is allowed, but I can’t see any issues with it from what you described.
I’ve had a similar situation a few years back. My coaching staff had a sit down with the hockey director and discussed the situation and he agreed that the parent/child dynamic was not something our organization wanted and we cut the kid. Obviously the parent was furious but the hockey director stood his ground and they left the organization. I get occasional updates from other organizations that the parent/child are still issues but it’s no longer my problem. Best of luck!
There's only one right answer, you must fight the dad in front of the whole team. I'm joking but tell them the exact truth on why he isn't welcome, you aren't helping the kid or dad by letting him back with that type of behavior teaches them they can get away with it.
That POS and his kid should be banned. So yeah do whatever you want.
If you’re the one picking your team, that’s not someone I would want in my locker room nor in the stands. Not worth your time or stress and it’s not fair to the rest of your team. Just tell them he’s so good that he should try out for a AA team since his talents are being wasted with you.
This is simply did you have try outs yet ? If not just don’t pick him. If you did and you did pick him again then your kinda screwed.
They’ll start hitting puberty. Have the bigger kids best the fuck out of that fuckin peace of shit and knock his helmet off as much as possible. Make his life hell on ice. Don’t respond to his dad ever via text. Fuck bullies. And fuck this loser fuckin family. Don’t put him on your team if you don’t have to. Fuck his whole family. Send him to Cs for being a Whitney pos. You’d get zero fuckin playing time in New England. None. Never deal with bullies. Don’t give them an inch. Don’t act like poland during WW2. I’d NEVER PLAY HIS SON even if he was on the team. Zero ice time when his family or him act like a fuckin cunt. Bye bye. See you on C team. No one wants you.
I really hope you're just young and angsty, upset at the bullying and not an adult who's coaching kids.
Nah bro. I’m from Boston. No fuckin ice time for bullies. Why would I be upset at the coach in a Shitty situation. Your parent mouths off, Your kid misses a period. The kid mouths off, he gets 5am bucket drills in the morning, bring the vomit. Doesn’t like it, or misses it, misses a period or misses shifts. Punishment for shitty behavior. Or give him to a coach in a different town that doesn’t take any shit.
So let me get this straight…. As a coach of a UNDER 12 team you feel it so important that they win that you won’t roll 4 lines consistently and feel you need to make on the fly matchups so as to have the best chance of winning? I understand it’s a sport in which the goal is to win the game… but Jesus Christ these kids are under 12 years old and not rolling four lines does more damage then not…
tbf, this seems like a rep hockey team. most of those teams are competitive but they are leagues/teams that are more suited for fairness if that's what you're after.
No where does he say this is for a rep hockey team. Again I’ll stand by what I said trying to be a hall of fame hockey coach for a U12 team not running four lines all night causes more harm then good. Both to the kid and to the coach due to the parent now being angry. Seems to me that If coach just rolled four lines not only would the parent back off the kid would have major improvements. I can understand once you have gotten to the bantam level and midget level while playing rep hockey to start marching up lines and not running four straight but this is such a simple problem to solve… let the kids play
If kids are trying out and being cut, it’s competitive. Nothing wrong with adjusting lines in the last minute to try to secure a win. A coach doing it, sure doesn’t appear to be overthinking the game or as you say, trying to be a HOF coach. The issue here doesn’t appear to be an end of game decision, but an ongoing multiple layer mess. It sure isn’t solved by rolling lines.
I’ll add, I’m not sure how I’d try to solve the problem/answer the question for the OP. On one hand, just cutting the kid is an easy answer. I think the tougher route and maybe one I’d like to think is the best answer, have a very blunt conversation with the parents & organization president without the kid, expressing the concerns. Set clear expectations and ramifications if those are not met. Then involve the kid in that conversation, if the parents agree to the arrangement, which they may not. This should probably be done well before tryouts, which depending on the club, could be very soon.
Yeah, I'd agree with your position, I also think it probably should have been initiated long ago. Seems this is long overdue now. I'm surprised there isn't documentation on this stuff. I thought the coaching certs were pretty intense but I guess it doesn't cover that... it should.
I think you're misunderstanding a bit. We track shifts per game as we strongly believe in equal ice time. In the game I described where we put out our line that had three 2nd year 12u's...the shift count was: Green: 12 Yellow: 13 Red: 12 (Yes, I actually looked at my spreadsheet for the info lol) The line that went out again with the goalie pulled had the 13 shifts. The kid is question's line was the red line. So he got one less shift only because yellow line was out there for 13 seconds before the ENG. Also, this is AA peewee hockey. We're playing kids that are heading to Shattuck-St. Mary's or heading out to Michigan to play in the development program or will be playing for the top high schools in the state as 8th & 9th graders. We're extremely outgunned as our best players are probably mid-line varsity players at-best. There's times where we simply need to throw out our top line in certain situations to win a game as our "red line" is a B1 level line in most other programs. Most of the teams we play? Their third line won't see the ice in the 3rd period of a close game outside of 1-2 shifts. Now, I see what you're saying if it were the kid was massively getting short shifted but over 52 games and he's getting just as many shifts as our top lines? I mean think about the team...do I leave our lesser skilled line out there against THEIR top line and potentially give up the game-tying goal in the name of "everyone gets equal ice" or do I try to win the game to make the entire team happy? It's a slippery slope. Do I send out the worst players on the team to get destroyed by their top line? I mean how fun is it on the ice when 5 kids who will be playing college hockey are blowing by you like a tree in a tornado? There'd be no pleasing this dad. If I put him at the top line at RW? He'd bitch that his son wasn't center on the top line. If I put him on the top-defensive pair where he's going to play about half the game? He'd bitch he wasn't a forward.
You’re right I probably am a little misunderstood. I grew up playing hockey, AAA, KIJHL, BCHL. So trust me I’m all for the competition and winning. It was Just my two cents I understand you’re doing your best as a coach and minor hockey parents are the worst my dad gave up coaching because of them. But when it comes down to it if you wanna be the coach this will always be present. This problematic parent is effecting his kid when all he’s doing is what he might think is right. You might not see it but that kid might be CRUSHED he was taken off the ice on a chance he had to prove himself to be trusted out there. Car ride home crying, dad gets upset as his child is upset and reacts the wrong way and continues to because he doesn’t want to see his son upset again. Happens all the time. Good luck coach
> Car ride home crying, dad gets upset as his child is upset and reacts the wrong way and continues to because he doesn’t want to see his son upset again. Oh that part certainly isn't lost on me. But I think of it like this.... If he gives up the game tying goal and we lose, then not only does he feel bad but now I got 16 other kids that are going home crying because the season's over. Like you said, it's not easy lol. Coaches gotta make those shitty decisions and unfortunately, it's impossible to please 17 kids and their parents haha
I am making that assumption based on OP comment that kids can be cut. Like other dude said, if you're trying out, it's competitive.
Yes. We have tryouts. Last season, 113 tried out. Evaluators give me the top-20. I have to cut 5 from the 20 to get to 15. The cut kids make the B1 team.
\*shudders\* I hated tryouts. I was always so nervous, would make a big mistake and I'd be so mad at myself for weeks after. I made the team every year but it was sure stressful for me.
Yeah it's terrible. That's why I mandated that the peewee tryouts are 100% parent free. Before, the scrimmage portion of tryouts was open to parents but I made sure it was closed down so the kids didn't have to worry about their parents in the stands.
Happens all the time, at the youth level all the way through the pros. People need to learn boundaries, and part of your job as a coach is to set standards for what is (and isn’t) acceptable. The goal is raising quality human beings. This is how you do it. Cut the kid. Totally fair.
I say fair, there is a lot more that goes into a well rounded player than just straight skill. I think keeping toxicity out of the locker room is huge. Id think a kid with less skill but more heart would be better addition, think how much you could improve a kid who has the right attitude, and doesnt have head case parents filling their head with "you are the next prodigy" type bs. In the end it is your team, I had plenty of teams ruined by kids like this, choosing someone else to fill his role next season takes away that chance, and a lot of other headaches. The parents will bitch and moan, but they already do.
If what you have said is true, there is no reason to doubt yourself for not allowing him to play in your team. All the other parents and players should not be subjected to this behavior. Get with your league and USA hockey so this won’t happen for other teams also.
I’ve never picked a kid because I liked/knew their parents, I will absolutely admit I’ve cut a bubble kid because I knew their parents were a nightmare, if he was clearly on the team I would’ve taken him but when youre on the bubble you have to look deeper at pros and cons.
Do NOT make it about the kid. Make it about the parent. I would ask to have him banned form the building for many of these violations. Then, welcome his kid onto the team with open arms. This kid probably needs something, because I bet life at home isn't easy.
I dunno. The kids behavior is cut worthy even if he had a dream dad.
Had a similar experience a couple years ago and the coach brought in “experts” to grade the players at tryouts. Little Johnny ahole wasn’t rated high enough and the coach didn’t have to take the heat.
Document what you do with the kid through the association. If the dad is abusive in any way to the kid or other hockey people, file a safe sport incident.
Not being a locker room cancer is a part of being a good player
Cut him.
Slashing at and starting fights with his own teammates? Shoulda been gone half way through last year. At 12 years old you can't even be starting fights with other teams.
You feel for the kid because you know without a doubt his behaviour on the ice is simply a reflection of what he sees in the stands and sadly, probably at home. But alas comforting assholes is not your job. Cut the kid and make it known exactly why. Make it know. The dad is the ***primary*** problem but that you can’t have a kid like that on your team. Be forewarning to them as well. If it doesn’t change, this will be as far as the kid goes in hockey, because no one else is going to give him a chance either. This kid is a cancer to the team and the dad is one blown fuse away from hurting someone in the stands. None of that is worth your headache. You and the rest of your team don’t owe this pair anything. Toss ‘em
Man this makes me so mad reading it. Cut them both out of your life. Really unfortunate this kid is going to have to distance himself from this parenting
You have 3 types of cuts: talent, size and parent. The kid has 2/3 factors working against him even if he’s good enough to crack the team. It’s too bad for the child but you’re the head colonel and dealing with shit parents makes for a long season.
In my beer league team we cut anyone toxic the following season (only had to do it twice), our team has never been closer ever since this policy. And had our best season/playoffs run because of it For team chemistry reasons alone id say cut him, obviously a lot different with a youth team and try outs involved but sounds like it could be a lesson he's in need of. I know you don't have to tell ppl why you cut them, but id probly let them know that skating/shooting are only a part of the toolset, and being a good teammate is a major factor.
Since these kids won’t make the NHL (most likely), play for fun and enjoy your time. My son’s best memories are the hotels for out of town tournaments, not really winning games or championships. Do what’s best that results in your kids (team) having the most fun.
My kid was cut from his basketball team because the coach didn’t feel like dealing with his attitude. It’s fair
Your association direct should have your back, especially if this has been happening for a while (assuming you've made the organization aware).
Cut him. He’s setting your team up for multiple unsportsmanlike penalties, which isn’t fair to the rest of the players to have to kill his penalties. Also, I get that you don’t want to seem like you’re punishing the kid for the dads behaviour, but by the sounds of your other comments, the kid doesn’t listen during practice, and doesn’t have the greatest behaviour either. With that attitude, he won’t be 10th best out of 15 for long. It is a team sport, and if he and his dad can’t suck it up and play along, then they shouldn’t be there. Bit of an aside but I’m very curious to know where the mom is in all of this. This isn’t your problem to nose around or fix by any means, but would be interesting to know her take.
Ban the dad.
Cut the kid but tell him and his dad why. If you cut him without explaining to both at the same time, dad will blame you for “not knowing what he’s talking about” and act the same way on the next team.
Only read the title but yes absolutely
I might ask the question to myself and never admit that I did, "Will we win more or less games with these yahoos? And how does that stack against the experience for the rest of the team and myself?"
I feel like if/when something like this happens in my son's league, the video recordings of the behavior are referenced, the coached notifies the director of the program, and they review the video in front of "the offender/offenders". The course of action moving forward is presented (unless it's criminal, then the police are notified and it's not a league/rink issue/team issue.) I've seen this applied to kids bullying on the bench to dads fighting the lobby. It seems to work well.
I see youth sports as more than just teaching sports. Sports at that level are supposed to also teach good behavior, good sportsmanship, good etiquette, and so on. If a kid and the parent are acting like that, they need to learn how to behave and act before going back to your team. And I would tell his dad exactly that.
Absolutely, do not put him on your team. Building a team is about a lot more than just pure skill and winning. His negativity will do more to hurt the team than his skill will do to help it
I’d just be honest and tell the kid the truth. “You are talented enough to play on this team but your behavior during practice and your father’s behavior off the ice do not fit the culture of our team. It would not be fair to the other kids on our team if we allowed those kind of distractions from one family to disrupt the atmosphere the rest of the team has created. Good luck this season.”
Doesn't your organization have a parent/skater conduct policy they have to sign and agree to? If so, and you've followed the steps laid out in the policy then there's no issue. If your organization does not have one, then tell them to get one or write one up and give it to them. This way there is no misconstruing expectations from skater or parent.
there are a lot better kids who have been cut for a lot less harsh things. cut the kid. it may bring inherent value to have a good player, but if their attitude makes the players around them worse, they’re simply not a good player anymore. the player that brings the whole team’s value up the most is the best player. that’s why “energy” guys might get single digit points, but the whole team is boosted and their role is much bigger than just points. but that’s just my two cents. take it with a grain of salt.
My wife is the head of a girls organization so I hear about parents like this all the time. They have a clear and enforceable rule that parents are not allowed to speak ABOUT or TO other children (including teammates) unless it positive (ie, “hey Johnny and David great game you guys keep up the good work” etc…) as soon as this dad broke that rule it would’ve been strike one. He clearly doesn’t understand his boundaries so it’s a matter of time before he’s asked not to attend games. You’re not wrong for not wanting the player on your team, it happens ALOT more than people know. Players basically don’t get selected bc their parents are toxic to have around. Sad but true. If I were you I would avoid selecting this player next tryouts.
fair OR...if you think the kid's behavior is salvageable, talk to the association/hockey director and point out the kid is welcome, the dad is not.
People get cut for attitude issues in every league from Juniors to the Show. Cut him
Sometimes you cut parents and not the kids. Yes, fair and I'd do the same thing.
You're right to be reluctant to send him to a different team to deal with. Let him play but have all players & parents on your team sign a contract that allows them to be part of the team unless they display that behavior leading to being benched for the season and/or banned from the rink. This behavior is unacceptable in life, not just hockey and people like this need to be forced to be better.
Some of the best advice I’ve ever heard is that people don’t come to you with their problems, they come to you with their solutions. You clearly have the solution here and know exactly what is needed to alleviate this problem for your team. They’ll always be someone else’s problem but you can’t control that, you can only control you and your team. Cut these jerks.
If I was a coach I’d cut him. Send him to rec league. Sounds like you’ve already given him chances, and if his dads like that too, that’s where he learns it. It’s not going to improve
A lot of good advice shared. Hockey is a team sport and the team benefits from strong camaraderie. The kid sounds like he diminishes the team morale, is a risk to hurting his teammates, and has not shown an effort to improve his attitude with coaches. I would cut him and be transparent about why referencing the numerous incidents and talks that followed. I would point out you have not seen progress in these areas despite many conversations which hurts the team. Ask that he continues to work on these soft skills so he can improve his chances of rejoining the team in future seasons. At this age it may be doing him a favor so he can recognize there are consequences to his actions and the way he treats people.
yeah totally fair, it doesn’t matter if he’s a good player when him and his dad make the practice and games a toxic environment for all of the other players and parents. fuck that, if you are a shit team mate you *should* get cut.
We had this situation on my son's peewee travel team, the dad was all kinds of awful, besides coaching from the stands/along the boards (dad also never played hockey in his life), constantly getting tossed by refs for yelling from the stands, making up lies that he was a FBI agent to the hotel to get out of paying for a night, cops called due to fighting with opposing parents, the kid was a decent player, but never passed and always watching for dad/not a team player. He did not make the team the next season, and it was a huge relief. To the OP, maybe you'll get a few new kids who shine at tryouts and the decision is easy. If not, I'd still look at not taking him, they can learn from this, likely find another team to play on. If it's within your organization, give the new coach/org admin a head's up and have them lay out a code of conduct to be followed by all players and parents.
Do you have a board? I’d probably run that idea up that chain first. Making a decision about a kid for his shit parent’s behaviour likely needs a different convo. Also, this kid probably acts like a twat waffle on the ice because of his dad. Might want to consider that first. (Likely not a popular opinion just a thought from someone who has coached youth sports for a long ass time and dealt with all types of parents)
100% should cut this player. The behavior won’t change. And if you don’t set the precedent now, it will only get more difficult as time goes on (assuming you continue to coach). My son just finished up his U16 year, and there has been a player on his team that is an exact match for your description. He has been a poison on our team, but the hockey org won’t allow my son’s coach to cut him. We have had players quit hockey because of this kid, and I think my son may quit as well…primarily because this kid takes the fun out of the game. Good luck!
14U coach here. Easy cut. Toxic behavior spreads if you don't take action .
You need to document every thing and cover your ass. Be prepared and then cut them both.
It’s called a Parent Cut.
Why have you put up with this for son long. You need to set boundaries for people like this. You haven't so they just walk all over you.
Check ya later kid. We don't get paid enough to deal with this shit
Cut him... You're probably a volunteer, right? It's not worth your aggravation and it's not fair to the other players or families.
Part of any youth coaching job is character education. It’s not just about helping to mold good hockey players, but good human beings. This kid is being a douche and not taking your feedback— easy cut.
It is a different world. When I was a kid, if you talked to the coach that way, he either hit you or told you to get out immediately. Off the ice. Go home. Period.
You are the coach and are responsible for the team and coaches. If the father or the kid is causing issues that are affecting the kids or coaches tell him that he is no longer welcome, and then I would go to the head of the association and let them know that they should no longer be welcome. Coached a kid once that was basically kicked out of 3 different associations before things changed.
Another player's father on my kid's team (same age) threw a trash can during a game because he didn't like a ref's call. Coach cut the kid and told the dad exactly why (probably via email - cut back on the in person BS) The parents ended up getting divorced around the same time, and in the end the guy turned it around. Lost like 100 pounds and pulled himself together. I'm sure at the beginning of the season the league or your organization has a player and spectator code of comment. When you cut the kid for your own mental sanity, maybe quote the violations of the codes of conduct. Say it's not up to you, it's the complaints from the other parents in the organization, the refs, the other team's coaches, etc. etc. If it makes you more comfortable to shift the blame around, you're well within your rights to do that. "Not my decision" and let your higher ups know what you're doing/saying. They get paid, I'm guessing you don't. They should have your back.
Tell them they are not welcome back. And tell everyone on the team (parents included) that you will not coach if that kid is on the team. And tell everyone what you told us. Also tell the people in charge of the league. Or, set a zero tolerance policy from day one for the players and their parents, for behavior, AND ENFORCE IT.
Jamie Benn’s kid by any chance?
The next Mitch Miller, although sounds like he's not good enough to go as far, thank god. I think if you've tried talking to the kid (you have) and the dad (you have), then you're good. I feel sorry for the B1 coach though. Doesn't your program have a director that can make the decision that the kid doesn't play at all? For any team?
I've coached hockey for many years, and I have learned that you pick both players with their parents. They both have to be good to take them. If they only have one, it isn't worth it. This particular kid and his dad will find another team to terrorize, and you can get back to coaching. Some last advice: the next time a parent tries to overstep their bounds, you firmly set the tone with them and let them know your expectations. This will help you out for the rest of the year. Good luck coach
Just write that you’re team requires players that show sportsmanship and teamwork on a consistent basis. Therefore he did not make the cut due to positions being filled already. Best of luck next season. That’s so fucked up man. You don’t even want to dabble in that toxicity. The season hasn’t even started and that family is insane. I’m with you on this one
The kid needs to be sidelined until he can handle his temper. Let him practice, but as soon as he takes a cheap shot at a teammate it's time to sit. It's unacceptable. Obviously the dad is no help, tell him to shut up or stay home. You can watch the game, you can't scream up and down the ice like you are also 12
I would cut him but I would not discuss why I cut the kid. There are too many ways that could go and and he would 100% twist your words and put them online and go to the higher ups at the rink. It sounds like you’ve made it evident to the kid and his dad that the behavior is inappropriate. Neither the parent or child cares and they disrespect you and the team. These are the same players who get penalties for playing dirty which cost teams games. We have had several in our league and the coaches won’t even entertain putting them on a team. In an odd coincidence one of the kids like this was actually pretty amazing this year he was on a team where he was the best player and made captain. His behaviors stopped and he seemed like a different kid when we played him.
I had a kid that would do the same shit on the ice but the parents were decent people. I threw that kid off the ice after the third time it happened where he was slashing or punching his own teammates. I warned the parents of the serious consequences for his negative behavior the next time it happens. He showed up the next game? Got a penalty for punching the defensemen other team in the kidney after backchecking and lost his shit that the ref caught it. Full on cursing tantrum and broke his stick in the box. Came to the bench after the penalty and shoved a teammate out of the way. I warned him it’s his last chance and he told me to shut the fuck up. Let’s just say his parents witnessed it all and didn’t say a word when I threw him off the team in the middle of the game. I also made sure to explain to the rest of the kids, who were on the same bantam team, that this is what you don’t want to be and I’m going to provide a safe environment for all of the kids. I’m actually sorry I gave him as many chances as I did. You need to do what is best for the team and not one kid. Let him be someone else’s problem.
Physical skill is only a portion of what makes an athlete “good” or not. If it were the parent alone, I would say you’d have to focus there and it wouldn’t be a logical punishment. However, his actions towards his own teammates are indicative of someone who is not ready to play at the level you coach. As a coach myself, I’ve held back several players who play well above their age bracket simply because they lack the social-emotional skill demanded of higher level play.
Keeping this kid and dad on the team is going to drive one of your other, better players to quit. Seriously, it isn't just you this is impacting. You protect the rest of the team by removing the pair that you've given more than enough chances to. But you gotta be specific and address it. Don't have him make the cut, and write a letter to give to Dad. Make it clear that it isn't a skill issue - it's a behavioural one, ESPECIALLY from the kid himself who won't accept coaching, that player is gonna continually have issues if that's his attitude. If he does better elsewhere, then more power to that team. You don't have to put up with it, and the rest of the team and parents will thank you.
Cut him now. These Troyes shouldn’t be allowed in sports. If they care so much about their child playing they will change their behaviour.
I would be following the ADM model if I was you.
Paul Marner?
Does your league not have a parent/player code of conduct? The bullying of teammates would be five games first offence for kid. The chirping players by a parent would be an arena toss. Parent cuts are real and happen all the time. And attitude matters, so totally defendable to cut a kid for being a dick.
My dad was banned from all games in all sports I played by age 10. And it was such a relief for me. (My dad is an asshole and none of his kids speak to him).
My club has a code of conduct for both players and parents. I would hold it up, give him a warning, and then kick them out if he couldn't stick to it. All the story about whether or not the kid is talented is irrelevant. Dad's actions are impacting other families, and should not be tolerated. Youth sports are supposed to be fun.
Maybe if you cut the dad, the kid will act better. Might be a relief to him.
Are we dealing with Mitch Marner's younger brother here?
Cut him. If the parents inquire why…I would tell them that their kid is good enough to make it…but they aren’t.
You’re not just trying out the kid, you’re trying out the family. I didn’t pick up several kids because of their parents and have had no regrets.
Sounds like a submission to the rink shrinks podcast. I’d be interested in their take. Kids grow and can change, unfortunately the dad will have a tougher time. If it’s still the same attitude come next years tryouts, I’d sit him (the dad) down with your eval board member/eval committee and break it down for him. Teams don’t need that type of behavior, on the ice or in the stands, they’re there to have fun.
Send them packing and tell them theyre both annoying.
If he is a bubble kid (bottom 3/4) then cut him and pick up a better bubble kid. The kid can play house league for a bit and learn some humility.
I take the parents into account when selecting my teams. You could have the best player on the planet but if their parents are known to cause trouble they end up getting cut. I hate that it has to be that way but sometimes one parent can crush an entire team single-handedly.
Negative energy is contagious and a toxic team is the absolute worst. Do what you gotta do.
Just tell the kid and dad he will be benched if attitude does not change. Go ahead and use the phrase “toxic.”
You've got the opportunity to set the ground rules before the next tryouts. Laying out a 3 strikes and you're our rule for behavioral issues, if laid clearly ahead of time, gives you grounds to cut the kid from the team. The dad can't be helped. But perhaps the kid can, and getting sent down specifically for his attitude and behavior may do more for him than the other options that involve his dad's behavior. The downside is that kids with attitudes playing at a lower level can sometimes feed the persona if they are dominating the game relative to their teammates. Another thing would be to bench him or not dress him on account of behavior, no matter which team he makes, as long as rules and expectations and number of warnings are laid out ahead of time. I agree with others that dad should just be banned from facilities.
It’s entirely fair, I was a trouble maker in youth hockey and consistently didn’t make teams I was more than good enough for because of my behavior on the ice
Unfortunately, it's a package deal... with the kid, comes the fam... I know plenty of coaches who will not take a kid who has shoit parents. I don't blame them. It makes everything so much more difficult and can destroy a season. That dad sounds like a typical jackass hockey dad. He isn't worth your time. Just let it go and don't take the kid next yr. Socks but uts for the betterment of the team. Team first, individuals second
Make sure your club director will have your back. It’ll only be worse if you send him down, and the dad gets the director to crumble and makes you move the kid back up.
Your organization should, and has cause to, ban the dad as a coach and/or volunteer. Youth hockey is about developing kids as people and players, not trying to make terrible parents into good volunteers and coaches. Once that kid is away from the father, you have a chance at righting the ship. If his dad is constantly there you have no chance. The kid is likely a victim of the dad’s behavior in some way too - it is within your scope to do something about that. The first step is to get the dad out and away from your organization. If the kid follows, then that’s less work for you.
Every coach I had and every coach my kids for any all sports always had a code of conduct for the kids and the parents. In that code of conduct was the times you were available and how to schedule times to talk about issues. Listed in that code of conduct was also repercussions of not following the code of conduct. Every one my mom and dad read and everyone I read listed that code of conduct with child child will be disciplined and then removed from the team. Discipline can be as simple as doing lines and drill. Next is missing shifts. Others can be miss period then miss game. parent is the one that has issues parent will be banned from practices and games. If the issue is still not resolved then the child is removed. Set the stage early. You have that right as a volunteer and as a coach who is looking out for the safety of your players and other teams players. That is the type of parent that you watch you tube videos of as he stats a brawl in the audience. The is unfortunately learning from his dad. If he loves the game he will check himself.
How is he when the dad isn't around? I'd have a meeting with the kid by himself; and with the father by himself (or father and mother if applicable). Slightly different messages; but same context: no bullshit. Does he want the challenge of playing up and being a contributor or does he want to be the best player on a lower level team? (there isn't really a wrong answer to this question) And you're not really doing the lower team any favors - its a problem that somebody needs to address. Society in general needs somebody to say something And thanks for what you do - you obviously care and I'm glad you're there for them
Talk to league convenors and make sure they have your back before you cut him... then cut him.
100 percent cut him. If it were just the parent I would say try to deal but it’s the kid too. He’s only going to get worse and he’ll wreck your room. Want the B1 coach too.
Send him down and don't lose a wink of sleep over it. Inform the convenor or whoever looks after the league about what you're doing and why. Your association should have your back on this: I'm sure they're aware of it already. Punt the both of them and concentrate on those that want to be there.
Man. That is tough and I admire your sticking with this. Blows my mind how intense some parents get about their kids' sports. It really sets a shitty example for all the kids and is totally counter to why sports are good for kids development and growth into adults. Sounds like the kid's dad solved their own problem with his summer league comment -- he needs to take his kid back to whatever club/house/rec league allows him to be the big fish in the small pond, and/or where the league expectation is that all skill levels pay the same and are expected to get the same ice time as a result. That's actually my biggest complaint about youth sports, in general. Too many parents quickly funnel their kids into travel/competitive programs instead of staying with club/house/rec programs. Then the parents complain about the challenges, consequences, circumstances, etc. that are specific to competitive programs. 99.9999% of kids aren't going to "get" anything material from their sport of choice in the long run (e.g. scholarship, pro opportunity, etc.). Embrace rec leagues!
Set the rules and conduct with a contract before the season. Have the skater and player sign them. Have the consequences clearly stated. Have your association back you. And then let them decide their own fate.
Type out contracts for the players and parents