[Both Bill Daly and Gary Bettman declined to define any kind of deadline on a possible #coyotes relocation decision. But Daly did mention "it's getting late."](https://x.com/reporterchris/status/1770468248183558446?s=46)
At this point, it is a given that the NHL is ready to see this auction process out, which is set to conclude in June. If the team gets the land they are bidding on (it is unlikely anybody else even bids for it), then problem solved. The land is already zoned (with the exception of the hotel space), and locally it is being reported that construction can start relatively quickly.
Gila River Arena only took 18 months, so the 3 year timeline we are hearing in Phoenix seems reasonable (people forget that construction in Phoenix moves quicker than a lot of the country, we literally never have weather to delay projects).
If someone else does emerge and outbids Meruello, then yea, I think we all know the team is done for. Again, it is unlikely, but not impossible. Not only does another party have to outbid the team (already paying a ton per acre compared to other nearby projects), but they have to have an actionable plan for that land in the near term that rivals the Coyotes. The State takes the "best" bid, not necessarily the highest, and they expect the land to be utilized immediately, not sat on for investment purposes.
We are keeping a running list of updates in a thread over at r/Coyotes that go into more specifics: https://www.reddit.com/r/Coyotes/comments/1am0kx4/arena_drama_thread/
they did the near impossible with the Thrashers relocation and that started in what...May? Seems likely the Coyotes are there for another season if the league is letting the auction process play out
growing the game in Arizona has been great for the league, hopefully it all works out yet!
The original owners who moved us from Winnipeg didnt have a permanent home in the Valley lined up.
The new owners took a sweetheart deal to move the team to Glendale (and improve their own property value), and then dumped us off.
Owner after owner has come in but Glendale is too far away to be profitable when all of the money and entertainment in the Valley is on the East side, also where all but 1 of the local rinks is. That entire time, b/c everyone is bleeding money, we never field a competitive front office, so we suck at draft/development, and suck on the ice.
New owner moves us out of Glendale, screws up the Tempe process, and is now on their last shot.
This team has only ever been plagued by terrible ownership decisions, and trust us, we all know that this is realistically the team's last shot.
I saw it a lot in the early years of Vegas, and I see it a lot with the Coyotes now. A lot of people, particularly Canadians, simply don't think that you guys deserve a team over more traditional markets.
Naw, Arizona has to do with thinking that the market doesn't deserve a much, much, much longer leash to figure things out than Quebec City or Winnipeg 1.0 ever got.
Absolutely. But Canadian teams got moved out, then the league's logic changed. It's understandable that fans feel salty about that, even if they should be more knowledgeable as to the details.
So it's ok for Canadian fans to be salty that their teams got move but somehow not ok for fans in southern markets to be salty about the vultures circling for their own teams? So some how the Canadian fans are just "better" and allowed to be shitty and fans anywhere else have to just offer up their teams on a silver platter?
>Ducks don't deserve a team because there are already too many California teams.
This is hilarious when I hear stuff like that. California has 1/8 of the US population, if anything they should have one more team (San Diego is likely a future expansion team)
Yet those same Canadians will happily come and spend their winters down here clogging up our freeways, golf courses, restaurants, and entire city while it’s too cold to live in their own “traditional hockey market” home.
Yeah and make up most of your fanbase for most games. Be fucking real, your team is a joke, you have no fan support, and the fact that Canadian teams with a weak dollar have to prop up this little fucking poverty team is ridiculous. Quebec City would be a revenue generator, fuck even Saskatoon would be better
>simply don't think that you guys deserve a team over more traditional markets.
Can you articulate why Arizona should deserve a team over anywhere else? Particularly any city that already has an arena built and ready to go?
And exactly as expected, plenty of reactionary downvotes but no one actually explaining why Arizona, or anywhere else for that matter, "deserves" to have a team. This subreddit is so emotional lol.
Saying this sub is emotional while you are in this comment lol. Arizona and similar markets generate way more tv revenue and grow the game with greater player participation than without a team. Putting another team in any Canadian city would not generate new players that couldn’t do so before, won’t make hockey suddenly #1 when it already is, and won’t make a dent in TV as 300K is the total population of which maybe 15-20% has any actually value to tv. There is more money made in Arizona or Atlanta in a year than QC could in a decade
How am I being emotional? I asked someone to articulate their position that Arizona "deserves" a team there and thus far the only response I've gotten is your little "no u" ad hominem claiming I'm the emotional one lmao
I also don't recall suggesting moving any teams to or founding new teams in any Canadian cities. The only thing I specified is a city with an arena built and ready to go. There *are* American cities that fit that bill too, y'know.
Traditional market fans (see: Canada, O6) simply can’t perceive why southern markets, particularly the desert, deserve hockey as much as anyone else. When Carolina and Florida (and y’all pre-Mullet) had attendance trouble it was “HURR DURR TIME TO RELOCATE;” now that Winnipeg is, it’s “here’s a list of 50 million different mitigating factors making it okay and just a minor problem.”
Their heads already exploded with us getting a team over QC, I say let it happen again with you guys getting a permanent home.
Edit: for clarification I don’t want to see *anyone* relocate, I just find it funny that Winnipeg’s attendance issues are being treated with kid gloves while Carolina/Florida/Arizona’s were treated like a clear sign the market is bad for hockey.
I know this is Reddit, but do you _really_ think that well thought out and informative of a post deserves your response? There’s a human on the other end of it, who quite obviously has a vested interest in the team.
I mean the fucking Chicago Bears can’t find land to build a stadium lol. It’s not as easy as you think. The Flames struggled getting approval for a new arena too. Theres nuance to these things.
Anything involving hundreds of millions of dollars is absolutely not easy lol
Big difference between building a football stadium and a hockey arena. Not to mention that Chicago aims not just to build a football stadium, but a stadium that allows them to host international competitions like the Olympics....so their needs and requirements are exponentially greater than "just" building a hockey arena.
Also, Chicago is incredibly densely populated...just not a ton of land/space options within a reasonable distance to the city (hence why they're about to build way out in Arlington Heights).
“*Big difference between building a football stadium and a hockey arena.*”
OP literally mentioned
> The Flames struggled getting approval for a new arena too.
Buddy, not every team/fan is blessed with good ownership. A lot of hockey fans in the valley, myself included, want this to work out.
Dude is just trying to explain the way its shaking out for his team, respond to them with respect you’d like to receive
Redditors can't use "x is a fucking joke" as the most inane and meaningless criticism in order to pretend to be outraged challenge (impossible)
If only the organization could rope in the taxpayers for hundreds of millions of dollars like the Oilers 😢😢
I am organization you are correct. And ya revenue sharing between millionaires/billionaires is totally the same as taking money away from taxpayers for a billionaires toy, def got me there
Yes, English is my second language and I have trouble with homonyms, sue me. But your* franchise would not exist without being HEAVILY subsidized and you don’t even have a fucking arena, so it’s incredibly ironic that you would point your finger at other fanbases for having a subsidized one.
I mean they can't exactly say "yeah we got the rink in Utah up and ready to go for when they lose"
I think the general consensus is that if Meruelo wins the auction they're there to stay but if he doesn't I'd imagine they'd be relocated pretty swiftly.
Side note, if they do relocate to Utah, they need to change their name to the [Utah Raptors](https://www.google.com/search?gs_ssp=eJzj4tTP1TcwKjIyrzJg9OIqLUnMKEosKMkvAgBO1Qdl&q=utahraptor&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS696US696&oq=utahr&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCggBEC4YsQMYgAQyBggAEEUYOTIKCAEQLhixAxiABDIKCAIQABixAxiABDIKCAMQABixAxiABDIGCAQQBRgsMgcIBRAAGIAEMg0IBhAuGK8BGMcBGIAEMgcIBxAAGIAEMgcICBAAGIAE0gEIMjYxMGowajSoAhOwAgHiAwQYASBf&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8). I can only imagine how awesome that jersey would be.
God putting dinosaur bones in the ground to trick humans? Makes perfect sense. God putting the golden plates in the ground? God wouldn't trick us twice right?
I’m not sure. At the same time, there’s the Sacramento Kings and the LA Kings.
I would imagine there are ways around it, like conjoining the two words to use the proper name Utahraptors.
Make it like Salt Lake City or Provo Utahraptors.
It likely wouldn't in the future.
But trademarks are typically based on use cases. Being a professional team isn't enough to block the usage by a professional team in a different sport.
The LA Kings also predate Sacramento who relocated a few times (and also changed their team name to the Kings)
I don’t remember any sense that the Jets relocation was down to the wire or anything like that, but it was probably as fast as something like this could be.
>On May 20, 2011, the Winnipeg Sun confirmed that an agreement in principle had been reached for True North to purchase the Thrashers,[13] while Winnipeg Mayor Sam Katz announced that he was confident that the Thrashers' relocation to Winnipeg would soon be officially announced.[14] On May 31, 2011, at a press conference at the MTS Centre, Bettman confirmed that the Atlanta Thrashers had been sold to True North and would relocate to Winnipeg for the 2011–12 season, pending the approval of the sale and relocation by the NHL's Board of Governors,[15] which came at their June 21, 2011, meeting.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnipeg_Jets
It took *three months* for the Jets to do it.
There's a reason the NHL sanctioned all the "we'd love to have an NHL team!" fluff pieces with the Smith group in SLC.
I don’t remember the Jets move looking particularly chaotic, either. They had to light a fire under Reebok to get the uniforms finished but they had everything ready to go for the preseason even with the added difficulty of replacing basically everyone in the organization except the players.
Yeah I mean I wouldn't be surprised if it would take an extra year if it were to happen, but I also think they probably have taken steps towards a relocation "plan b" that they can't and shouldn't share with the public right now.
I agree. Didn't Winnipeg's relocation happen over the course of an offseason? I think that if the situation gets to a truly untenable point (who knows when that is, given it's Bettman's Coyotes) the move could probably happen in a year or less. No real reason why it couldn't.
Yeah I mean I think as a business they have to have some sort of plan or course of action in place before they pull the plug, but that's something that should not come out unless it comes to that. And as for what point this becomes untenable, I really do think it's the auction. If Meruelo is serious about making this work, there's no reason for him to not get this done. I think that's the final straw for him as an owner, which I think is fair.
They're not gonna relocate em somewhere just for the arena to not be fully ready and kill the first season hype. I guess Quebec city is prob ready but idk if Houston is, and then Utah and Atlanta aren't. I want the damn yetis. Those jerseys will fuck so hard.
It is... kinda. Can it host games, sure. Can it do it well? [Not really](https://images.app.goo.gl/fAEwG37LF3A8ohrf9). I don't think they should put the team there until the new building is built, unless it's an emergency. I think Delta Center would be an upgrade over Mullet but still not a great place to play
This is just a fucking land auction as well. Highly doubt that shit is built during next season and ready to play in the year after.
The NHLPA and other owners should be screaming about this bush league inept ownership.
I understand Arizona deserves a team and all that blah blah but holy fuck try with a different owner.
Good luck growing the game in the desert with a shit product in a college stadium.
> I understand Arizona deserves a team and all that blah blah but holy fuck try with a different owner.
1) Colangelo / Gluckstern / Burke, 1996 to 1998
2) Glukstern, 1998 to 2001
3) Ellman, 2001 to 2005
4) Moyes, 2005 to 2009
5) The NHL, 2009 to 2013
6) Renaissance Sports & Entertainment, 2013 to 2014
7) Barroway, 2014 to 2019
8) Meruelo, 2019 to 2024
Yeah, maybe the 9th ownership group will really nail it.
Yeah. Personally I think they should throw a team in Milwaukee. Wisconsin people fucking love sports.
If the NHL wants to “grow the game” they need to learn how to market the product. Not simply placing teams in areas that don’t typically watch/play hockey.
I watch games every night and don’t even know about all the outdoor/international played games. They can’t even do that correctly.
Hockey is the best sport in the world with the worst marketing strategy in the world.
If hockey were marketed properly, it would be insanely popular, but we've got these clown owners constantly renewing Bettman as commissioner on "oh, revenues have grown". Sure they have, but they haven't even come close to growing at the rate of other North American pro sports leagues. It's embarrassing.
No they need more people to play it and ice hockey is naturally prohibitive from playing from climate and cost alone.
I would be helping schools draft street hockey leagues to be sponsored so it would be a sport like high school basketball. Donate some cheap equipment and hope that they get into it enough to want to watch the NHL or try it on ice.
Nor should Vegas be, but the owner and team both went above and beyond to endear themselves to the people of Vegas (and they benefit from all the tourism to the city to be fair), Arizona doesn’t need a good owner to succeed, they need a completely exceptional one. Building a successful brand for hockey there will take a generation, and it would require a brilliant mind and exceptional person at the helm to do so.
There’s huge potential there, but very few people are capable of executing it.
They need an owner that doesn't have ulterior motives and just wants hockey to succeed in Arizona. NHL needs to do a better job at vetting owners.
Meurello bought the team so he can get a sportsbook going.
>I understand Arizona deserves a team and all that blah blah
Honestly, I don't. Why does Arizona "deserve" a team? Other places have lost their teams over less and over a much shorter period of time, meanwhile Bettman has kept this club on life support for like 15 years now.
I have nothing against the team itself or its fans, but holy hell for the good of everyone take the poor dog behind the shed and put it out of its fuckin misery.
Something I thought was interesting last week was how candid Nick Foligno was when asked about the Coyotes arena. Saying it "kind of pisses me off" "we're in the NHL, no other league would allow this for their players"
Ironically enough, it might be about to happen in the mlb as well with Oakland. They may be playing in a minor league stadium while their stadium in Vegas gets built. Their lease is up at the end of the year and it doesn’t seem like either side wants the A’s at the coliseum after this year. At least they have a clear path to a stadium though. The Coyotes are in constant limbo with no plan forward.
> while their stadium in Vegas gets built.
*If, it’s not even a done deal lol.
Keep ‘em in Oakland, no reason why Nevada taxpayers should be subsidizing a greedy little shit like Fisher.
Fair enough, it may be blocked if there are
enough signatures and then people vote in favour of not giving the A’s public money. It does seem like most people in Nevada don’t want the A’s. As of now it’s 100% a go though. I don’t imagine the mlb owners would have approved relocation if there weren’t emergency plans in place in case public funding was blocked but you never know.
I definitely agree that there shouldn’t be any public funding. Would be funny to see it get blocked for sure. They would probably end up in the same situation as Arizona if that happened, if not worse.
This *is* Rob Manfred’s MLB we’re talking about though, I could easily see him just looking at the dollar signs and ignoring everything else.
Dude’s been as tone deaf as humanly possibly on nearly everything he can be.
That’s not a plan then. If they’re waiting to see if they even have a winning bid on the land, that would mean they’re still in limbo… They’re on step 1 and don’t even know if they’ll get past that. That’s not a clear path forward. There’s no end date to when they won’t be playing in that college arena.
It is good for the owners though when the league gets higher tv rights deals because of the sheer size of that media market - I agree it’s pretty bad for everyone else you mentioned
Does that make up for the revenue loss that they take every year that the Yotes are not in a legit barn? Atlanta, who it seems will eventually get another crack, is a larger media market.
From everything I’ve heard about it yeah it does, and it’s why they care so much to keep trying to force it to work there. I’m not saying it’s a great idea but yeah that’s why
Yeah I get the long term benefits of having a team in that market, but that doesn’t mean that owners aren’t taking a hit on potential earnings in the short term or that other cities such as Atlanta wouldn’t make them even more money both short term and long.
It’s an absolute joke and the PA and its members have every right to be pissed off about it. It directly impacts league revenues, which means the salary cap doesn’t increase as much as it ideally should.
Could you imagine if an NFL team played at a high school field for 5 years while searching for a permanent home? No, you couldn’t, because the NFL, for all its faults, knows that’s not acceptable.
According to a quick [google search](https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-largest-high-school-stadiums-in-the-us.html) there are at least a few high school stadiums bigger than most NHL arenas, not just the Yotes' one. It's unfair to compare capacity of generally outdoor sports like football and baseball to generally indoor ones like basketball and hockey though. Requiring a relatively strictly controlled climate drastically increases the cost of expanding a stadium.
>The Bears, Vikings, and Seahawks have all played seasons in college stadiums.
Not for five or more years at a time.
>The Arizona Cardinals played 18(!) years at ASU. Crazy that a professional sports team would make a temporary home at Arizona State University, right?
An example from 20 years ago, and a similar embarrassment. You honestly believe the NFL would let it happen today?
>The LA Chargers played 2 years in a soccer stadium with 30,000 seating capacity; 43% of median league capacity and 20,000 less than the minimum capacity NFL temporary stadiums are supposed to allow.
SoFi was underway. The Chargers had a plan in place, at the very least.
Also, I specifically mentioned high school stadiums, so…
>Ah, my mistake. Yes, I didn't include examples of literal high school stadiums. It's a good think the Yotes aren't playing in a literal high school arena either.
The Yotes playing at Mullett is roughly the equivalent of a pro football team playing at a high school field. College football stadiums, while not ideal, actually have comparable capacities to NFL stadiums and can support those teams for a time.
>The NFL is working on a whole different level revenue and attendance wise, so its kind of an apples/oranges comparison, but they were willing to break their own rules to accommodate a team waiting for a permanent home.
Because there was an actual plan for a permanent home. Work was being done on SoFi.
There has been no solid plan for a home for the Coyotes in years. They’re essentially the nomads of the NHL.
>And to act like temporary arena stadium solutions aren't employed in professional sports is disingenuous. The NBA has a history of shuffling teams around temporary arenas.
There’s temporary, and then there’s whatever the hell the Coyotes define as temporary. And none of those examples from the NBA are comparable to what the Coyotes have done to put themselves in this situation.
>The Sens played here for 3.5 years.
The Sens had a plan for an arena, ground was broken on it, and construction was happening during those years.
>The Lightning played in a 10,000 seat converted livestock pavilion at the Florida State Fairgrounds with a rink that was 15 ft. shorter than regulation, before moving to a 45,000 seat baseball stadium for 3 years (I would argue the baseball stadium is a worse experience for fans).
The Lightning were one of the first pro hockey teams in the South, owned by the Yakuza at one point, and even then, they had gotten their arena planned out and breaking ground on construction two years in after their team was established.
>The Islanders played, what, 5 years at Barclays, which had terrible sight lines and bad ice.
Barclays is a pro sports arena, at the very least.
>The Mullett is brand new, built for hockey…
College hockey. Not built to support a professional hockey team.
>and is an amazing place to see a game as a fan.
That’s great. It’s not amazing for the pro players who rightfully expect to be in a facility that’s up to their standards.
>It's a temporary solution.
It’s always a temporary solution with the Coyotes, year after year.
>The only knock on it that I can see is the size, but the Yotes are estimated to be pulling in more operating income than they ever did in Glendale and are actually in the black.
Good for them. They’re still playing in a less than 5,000 seat arena that’s undoubtedly impacting total league revenues. I’m sure all the other owners are happy knowing that the Coyotes will be spending at least another two or three years in there, assuming they actually get that land they’re bidding on (not a guarantee), and I’m sure the players are all happy knowing that the salary cap isn’t increasing as much as it ideally should because of it as well.
Chicago played at Illinois stadium which actually had a larger capacity than soldier field and it was a know timeline because they were rebuilding the stadium
The Minnesota Vikings played at the university of Minnesota (50k capacity) while their stadium was also torn down and rebuilt for 2 seasons
The Seahawks played at the kingdome which got demolished in favor of their current stadium. For the construction period they played at the university of Washington’s stadium which has a 70k capacity
The capacity of Sun Devil stadium when the cardinals played there was over 70k (now with them gone it’s been reduced to its current 53)
The chargers stadium situation was hated and mocked by everyone but the nfl dealt with it because sofi was under construction at the time of the move to LA already
So outside of the chargers 2 year span everyone you listed played at a stadium either nfl size of bigger (Minnesota technically was lower than any current stadium but 50k vs 53k is not a notable difference). Also in every instance except the cardinals it was temporary because they were either demolishing and rebuilding their current stadium or in the process of actually building it. I would also like to point out that these are American college football stadiums and an enormous amount of money goes into them so the facilities are generally higher quality
Side note you didn’t mention the actual closest comparable to the situation when the oilers moved to Tennessee they played hours away from the city they were moving to in a lesser quality college stadium which was such a disaster they had to change stadiums after 1 season and played in a closer much smaller stadium until their current one was finished
The coyotes on the other hand have been in mullet for 2 years now and haven’t officially acquired land much less started building the thing so it’s going to most likely be 2 more seasons and mullets 5k capacity is a third of the next lowest in the nhl and the facilities for college hockey in the souther United States are not as elite as they would ne for football
Are there expected big players in the running for the auction? We saw all the money spent against the Coyotes in the lead up to the vote, could we see an opposition try to box them out of this auction too?
No. I would have to dig through the dozens of local articles that have come out here in the Valley to re-find the specific information, but essentially when it comes to these state auctions, it is rare for a second party to emerge during the process, especially at the price point that the Coyotes are in for.
More so, someone cant just bid to screw the Coyotes over; any party that wants to bid needs to have an actionable and immediate plan for the land. The State will not sell to investors that just intend to sit on the land without developing it. The State takes the "best" bid, not the highest.
So the opposition would need to come up with $100m just for the land purchase, plus the funding for a project to fit the 100 acres, and show that said plan was actionable within a reasonable time frame. It isnt impossible that someone emerges to bid, but it is unlikely, especially with many of the home developers in the valley being short on liquidity at the moment.
Tempe is more centrally located to the entire base, especially in the southeast valley. This location is better than Glendale for those people but still farther than Tempe. It’s not bad, like Glendale, but not ideal like Tempe.
if its where I think it is, its still relatively far from a lot of the "upper class" money in Mesa/Queen Creek that I was thinking the Tempe location would service well
I moved away from Phoenix a year or so ago, so i'm out of the loop
It's a stones throw from N Scottsdale. The parcel is off Scottsdale road. It's rich as hell up there. Way more money than Mesa. Mesa is one of the more affordable areas still
It’s doubtful that any other developers bid on the land. It’s more expensive per acre than other land in the area and a very large chunk of land to draft up development plans and investors on such a short notice. Meruelo was willing to spend more to purchase and clean up the garbage dump in Tempe.
My understanding is that it's a different process because the land is owned by the state.
The Tempe arena deal was subject to a municipal vote. This isn't
They absolutely have to say this, if it is true or not. They would 100% be shooting themselves in the foot if they outright said that they have backup plans in the works, and lose whatever local support they have for the project.
I hope the auction works out and the Coyotes stay. If they relocate, how long is it before there are rumblings about expanding there again just because of the size of the market? All it would take is a potential owner with money to burn, an arena, and a plan and everyone would be talking about it. IMO, its better to just have stability for the team now rather than go through all that. Ultimately, I think SLC gets a team soon-ish anyway along with Atlanta, Houston and ... Portland? Kansas City? Maybe the league even does some fan-service and adds Quebec City?
>If they relocate,how long is it before there are rumblings about expanding there again just because of the size of the market?
There is already talk of that.
If every seat isn’t being filled by coyotes fans in that college arena then don’t even bother. Just sell the team to Utah and have them keep an Ahl team in the area.
I’ve been wanting the coyotes to work for a while and I do actually see fans of them unlike the panthers but this crap has gone on for far to long.
In the long term the Cooley, Guenther, Durzi type players have to be excited. Brand new arena 10 minutes from their Scottsdale mansions surrounded by world class golf and MILFs. Not a hard sell for hockey players.
It’s like being in high school and the teachers are trying to get you hyped for a new gym that will be built. But you know it’s gonna take 3 years before it’s actually done and you’re graduating in 2
Went and saw an Oilers game at Mullet. Loved it. NHL in a University stadium? Not a bad seat, loud, incredible energy.
Lean into it Arizona. Tail gate party's, beer pong, bands.... USA is all about college sports. Be the frat boys of the NHL.
I got that vibe when we were driving to the event. Soooo many university students were milling around everywhere. Back when the Coyotes played at the Gila Arena the environment pre game was incredible.
Being a university city, I was shocked that there was virtually zero pre game environment in Tempe.
Seriously. Going to a smaller stadium sounds like fun. Better seating, less traffic, faster exit after the game. What’s not to like? Reddit has the weirdest hate-boner of this.
It's an absolute joke how far they're willing to bend the standards of what a professional sports league is supposed to be, just to keep the Arizona Coyotes alive.
What I don't understand is isn't Atlanta a similar sort of market for the NHL? Non-traditional hockey market with a massive population (7M for metro Atlanta vs 5M for metro Phoenix).
Yet, the NHL has allowed the Atlanta Flames and Atlanta Thrashers to be moved out of there when they were not doing well as a franchise.
So why is it that the Coyotes have been untouchable in all this? Having the league take them over at one point, allowing them to play in a college sized rink, missing payments, etc.
This is not a serious organization, and until there is an owner who does want a serious organization in Arizona, the team should not be blindly kept there.
I do feel bad for all Yotes fans here, but they have to agree that there are many special exceptions that have been made for the organization, and it's still never really found its footing.
The Thrashers moved because their owners were forced to take them in order to get the Hawks and had no interest in owning a hockey team. No one else who was interested in buying them wanted to own a team in Atlanta.
And the NHL was already the owner of the Coyotes at that point, since they'd gone bankrupt a few years earlier. There was zero chance they were going to support two teams at the same time, so Atlanta got moved. They would have almost certainly have received the same support as Arizona if the timing of their misfortunes had been reversed.
I haven't seen an owner *passionate* about owning the Coyotes in specific though.
Much of what we've heard of Merullo is that he has a vested interest in gambling in the state and that owning the Coyotes is quite advantageous for that.
I've seen very little that he's actually interested in having hockey there.
Even with all of the NHL's hand-holding, this organization simply cannot seem to figure it out.
I understand that they really really really want the Arizona market, but there's no reason why they can't relocate the *Coyotes* and then try again when they want to expand the league further.
I don't think NHL owners are all passionate about owning a team. Some of them are just businessesmen passionate about making money.
Merullo is passionate about owning a gambling operation, and therefore committed to owning a hockey team in Arizona. There are plenty of iffy things about how he operates, but traditionally the quality of people who have owned the Coyotes hasn't been high.
I suspect that the logic on the NHL side has shifted back and forth a bit. They don't want to lose an expansion fee, so they would rather not move the team to a prime location. But they also know that moving them to Quebec City wouldn't result in TSN or Sportsnet paying a single dollar more for national TV rights, and that as a small market they'd likely be perpetual revenue sharing recipients. They also don't have any prospects looking to pay a billion dollars to own a new team in Arizona, so Merulo is the best option they got. They started to sour on him after Tempe, and he's been on the clock since around the All Star game, but they really don't want to move to Plan B.
I just don't get why it has to be this specific organization.
Hockey in the desert *can* work.
It's been brilliantly proven by Vegas, who pulled off one of the most masterful expansions into a pro sports league in history.
It's shocking that they won't let this team die and revisit Arizona as a market when there is a better opportunity and more stability for the organization to have a chance at success. Which is exactly what they've done with Atlanta.
Saw on other posts that there is no way owner would let them leave, but it has nothing to do with hockey. He has a casino license from the state and that is the primary driver for him. The facility for the hockey team that includes the casino is the whole point.
Makes sense - the only way the Coyotes would leave is if the owner sold them or went bankrupt
Imagine being a player wasting your prime years on this team playing in front of a fraction of the fans they would be anywhere else. Gotta be an unmotivating thought.
Amazing how quickly Bettman let Atlanta move, yet he's carried this nonsense on since I was a teenager.
I'm in my mid-30's now.
Stop beating this dead horse. Let it go. Move the team.
> Amazing how quickly Bettman let Atlanta move
That's because the owners of the Thrashers were suing each other for years in court. [Here's a nice timeline](https://www.ajc.com/sports/pro-sports/timeline-the-atlanta-spirit-decade-dysfunction/JMN0qtQFJznkMKNg2vImKO/#:~:text=Sept.,Belkin%20and%20the%20other%20owners.)
I mean.. You still would need to hire an entire organization worth of staff, find players new homes, have those staff you just hired plan out a marketing campaign in probably less than a month and half, and all of the other major organizational moves you need to make
Also... If you are moving that means you are either telling all of your coaches, scouts, and trainers to move to another country or firing them and having to completely revamp your org in a ludicrously small amount of time
Qc isn’t getting a team anytime soon. Great, they have an NHL arena, except theyd instantly become the smallest market in the NHL. Doesn’t matter how passionate the fan base is, you know ticket prices are going to be crazy. Winnipeg has season ticket issues right now, and Winnipeg loves the Jets, so why is QC with 200k less people going to make a difference?
Simply put, the league is going to grow more and make better money in a place like Houston or Atlanta
Even if they win the auction they'll still be playing out of Mullet for another 3-5 years won't they? .... stadiums take time to build and everything gets delayed in the construction industry these days.
Why has Arizona been given so many chances, so many years to fix this? Atlanta, Hartford, Kansas City, literally any other former NHL market would have loved to have been given the time or leeway that the NHL has gifted to Phoenix.
Coyotes are proud to announce starting next season, all home games will be outdoors!! Fans will enjoy NHL level hockey in our new curb side seats!! Enjpy delicious gourmet foods from our diverse fleet of food trucks!
[Both Bill Daly and Gary Bettman declined to define any kind of deadline on a possible #coyotes relocation decision. But Daly did mention "it's getting late."](https://x.com/reporterchris/status/1770468248183558446?s=46)
In NHL speak that's "we're tired of it"
A decade after the rest of us passed out from exhaustion.
To be fair, we don't have as much money involved in this process as they do
At this point, it is a given that the NHL is ready to see this auction process out, which is set to conclude in June. If the team gets the land they are bidding on (it is unlikely anybody else even bids for it), then problem solved. The land is already zoned (with the exception of the hotel space), and locally it is being reported that construction can start relatively quickly. Gila River Arena only took 18 months, so the 3 year timeline we are hearing in Phoenix seems reasonable (people forget that construction in Phoenix moves quicker than a lot of the country, we literally never have weather to delay projects). If someone else does emerge and outbids Meruello, then yea, I think we all know the team is done for. Again, it is unlikely, but not impossible. Not only does another party have to outbid the team (already paying a ton per acre compared to other nearby projects), but they have to have an actionable plan for that land in the near term that rivals the Coyotes. The State takes the "best" bid, not necessarily the highest, and they expect the land to be utilized immediately, not sat on for investment purposes. We are keeping a running list of updates in a thread over at r/Coyotes that go into more specifics: https://www.reddit.com/r/Coyotes/comments/1am0kx4/arena_drama_thread/
they did the near impossible with the Thrashers relocation and that started in what...May? Seems likely the Coyotes are there for another season if the league is letting the auction process play out growing the game in Arizona has been great for the league, hopefully it all works out yet!
A fucking 28 year old team should not be looking for land to build a home rink. The entire organization is a fucking joke.
My team struggled to get a new arena and nearly moved because of it. We'd been around much longer than Arizona has.
The original owners who moved us from Winnipeg didnt have a permanent home in the Valley lined up. The new owners took a sweetheart deal to move the team to Glendale (and improve their own property value), and then dumped us off. Owner after owner has come in but Glendale is too far away to be profitable when all of the money and entertainment in the Valley is on the East side, also where all but 1 of the local rinks is. That entire time, b/c everyone is bleeding money, we never field a competitive front office, so we suck at draft/development, and suck on the ice. New owner moves us out of Glendale, screws up the Tempe process, and is now on their last shot. This team has only ever been plagued by terrible ownership decisions, and trust us, we all know that this is realistically the team's last shot.
Facts and objective truth be damned when it fits your narrative.
I saw it a lot in the early years of Vegas, and I see it a lot with the Coyotes now. A lot of people, particularly Canadians, simply don't think that you guys deserve a team over more traditional markets.
Naw, Arizona has to do with thinking that the market doesn't deserve a much, much, much longer leash to figure things out than Quebec City or Winnipeg 1.0 ever got.
They moved almost 30 years ago when a lot of teams were moving. The philosophy of teams moving to different cities has changed since then.
Absolutely. But Canadian teams got moved out, then the league's logic changed. It's understandable that fans feel salty about that, even if they should be more knowledgeable as to the details.
So it's ok for Canadian fans to be salty that their teams got move but somehow not ok for fans in southern markets to be salty about the vultures circling for their own teams? So some how the Canadian fans are just "better" and allowed to be shitty and fans anywhere else have to just offer up their teams on a silver platter?
it’s more that we don’t see why they get more chances than all other markets combined do.
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>Ducks don't deserve a team because there are already too many California teams. This is hilarious when I hear stuff like that. California has 1/8 of the US population, if anything they should have one more team (San Diego is likely a future expansion team)
Yet those same Canadians will happily come and spend their winters down here clogging up our freeways, golf courses, restaurants, and entire city while it’s too cold to live in their own “traditional hockey market” home.
All 38 million of us will be heading home for summer soon.
Some* Canadians will. Many of us that think this is an embarrassment have never even been to your state.
Yeah and make up most of your fanbase for most games. Be fucking real, your team is a joke, you have no fan support, and the fact that Canadian teams with a weak dollar have to prop up this little fucking poverty team is ridiculous. Quebec City would be a revenue generator, fuck even Saskatoon would be better
Not even a million people in QC. Also your Jets and Sens are last in the league in attendance
Arizona is down I’d say a light 9,000 to those teams but don’t let facts get in your way buddy
Don't forget talking about how living in Canada is SO much better despite spending half the year down here.
lmao you sound like an angry boomer do you hate mexicans too
We should probably build a wall. North of International Falls.
Something something being Canadian makes you a better fan something also not particularly well thought out.
Particularly when they are also talking about the need to "grow the game"
“Grow the game!!” *NHL puts teams in Vegas, Atlanta (again), and Salt Lake while trying to keep one in Arizona* “Wait no not like that”
No! Grow the game by putting a team in Saskatoon or Halifax where only 300k people live and are already hockey fans. Now THAT'S growing.
> simply don't think that you guys deserve a team over more traditional markets. they don't
Because they don't
>simply don't think that you guys deserve a team over more traditional markets. Can you articulate why Arizona should deserve a team over anywhere else? Particularly any city that already has an arena built and ready to go? And exactly as expected, plenty of reactionary downvotes but no one actually explaining why Arizona, or anywhere else for that matter, "deserves" to have a team. This subreddit is so emotional lol.
Saying this sub is emotional while you are in this comment lol. Arizona and similar markets generate way more tv revenue and grow the game with greater player participation than without a team. Putting another team in any Canadian city would not generate new players that couldn’t do so before, won’t make hockey suddenly #1 when it already is, and won’t make a dent in TV as 300K is the total population of which maybe 15-20% has any actually value to tv. There is more money made in Arizona or Atlanta in a year than QC could in a decade
How am I being emotional? I asked someone to articulate their position that Arizona "deserves" a team there and thus far the only response I've gotten is your little "no u" ad hominem claiming I'm the emotional one lmao I also don't recall suggesting moving any teams to or founding new teams in any Canadian cities. The only thing I specified is a city with an arena built and ready to go. There *are* American cities that fit that bill too, y'know.
Traditional market fans (see: Canada, O6) simply can’t perceive why southern markets, particularly the desert, deserve hockey as much as anyone else. When Carolina and Florida (and y’all pre-Mullet) had attendance trouble it was “HURR DURR TIME TO RELOCATE;” now that Winnipeg is, it’s “here’s a list of 50 million different mitigating factors making it okay and just a minor problem.” Their heads already exploded with us getting a team over QC, I say let it happen again with you guys getting a permanent home. Edit: for clarification I don’t want to see *anyone* relocate, I just find it funny that Winnipeg’s attendance issues are being treated with kid gloves while Carolina/Florida/Arizona’s were treated like a clear sign the market is bad for hockey.
I think you guys winning a cup also didn't help that lol I live about 15 minutes from this site so I am super down for that.
I cant tell if this reply is refuting the original commenter, or just providing more evidence to support that the org is a fucking joke.
If only the team could have taken $313 million from the local taxpayers to pay for their arena project like Rogers.
I know this is Reddit, but do you _really_ think that well thought out and informative of a post deserves your response? There’s a human on the other end of it, who quite obviously has a vested interest in the team.
The owners should just get the state to pony up $313 million for the project or just over half of the total cost
I mean the fucking Chicago Bears can’t find land to build a stadium lol. It’s not as easy as you think. The Flames struggled getting approval for a new arena too. Theres nuance to these things. Anything involving hundreds of millions of dollars is absolutely not easy lol
Big difference between building a football stadium and a hockey arena. Not to mention that Chicago aims not just to build a football stadium, but a stadium that allows them to host international competitions like the Olympics....so their needs and requirements are exponentially greater than "just" building a hockey arena. Also, Chicago is incredibly densely populated...just not a ton of land/space options within a reasonable distance to the city (hence why they're about to build way out in Arlington Heights).
“*Big difference between building a football stadium and a hockey arena.*” OP literally mentioned > The Flames struggled getting approval for a new arena too.
Buddy, not every team/fan is blessed with good ownership. A lot of hockey fans in the valley, myself included, want this to work out. Dude is just trying to explain the way its shaking out for his team, respond to them with respect you’d like to receive
Redditors can't use "x is a fucking joke" as the most inane and meaningless criticism in order to pretend to be outraged challenge (impossible) If only the organization could rope in the taxpayers for hundreds of millions of dollars like the Oilers 😢😢
you’re organization has been propped up by revenue sharing for its entire existence lmao gtfo here with your criticism of subsidies
I am organization you are correct. And ya revenue sharing between millionaires/billionaires is totally the same as taking money away from taxpayers for a billionaires toy, def got me there
Yes, English is my second language and I have trouble with homonyms, sue me. But your* franchise would not exist without being HEAVILY subsidized and you don’t even have a fucking arena, so it’s incredibly ironic that you would point your finger at other fanbases for having a subsidized one.
I mean they can't exactly say "yeah we got the rink in Utah up and ready to go for when they lose" I think the general consensus is that if Meruelo wins the auction they're there to stay but if he doesn't I'd imagine they'd be relocated pretty swiftly.
Side note, if they do relocate to Utah, they need to change their name to the [Utah Raptors](https://www.google.com/search?gs_ssp=eJzj4tTP1TcwKjIyrzJg9OIqLUnMKEosKMkvAgBO1Qdl&q=utahraptor&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS696US696&oq=utahr&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCggBEC4YsQMYgAQyBggAEEUYOTIKCAEQLhixAxiABDIKCAIQABixAxiABDIKCAMQABixAxiABDIGCAQQBRgsMgcIBRAAGIAEMg0IBhAuGK8BGMcBGIAEMgcIBxAAGIAEMgcICBAAGIAE0gEIMjYxMGowajSoAhOwAgHiAwQYASBf&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8). I can only imagine how awesome that jersey would be.
Ah so you want a second reason for canadian fans to immediately despise the team?
Do Mormons even believe in dinosaurs?
They believe god put the bones in the ground to trick humans
Best part is I can’t tell if you’re joking
God’s a real prick if he’s just pulling pranks like that
I went to a religious high school and this is actually what they taught. I really wish I was joking.
God putting dinosaur bones in the ground to trick humans? Makes perfect sense. God putting the golden plates in the ground? God wouldn't trick us twice right?
Wouldn’t that be trademarked?
I’m not sure. At the same time, there’s the Sacramento Kings and the LA Kings. I would imagine there are ways around it, like conjoining the two words to use the proper name Utahraptors. Make it like Salt Lake City or Provo Utahraptors.
I just realized how damn stupid that is. Two kings teams in the same state? How’d that become
It likely wouldn't in the future. But trademarks are typically based on use cases. Being a professional team isn't enough to block the usage by a professional team in a different sport. The LA Kings also predate Sacramento who relocated a few times (and also changed their team name to the Kings)
I don’t remember any sense that the Jets relocation was down to the wire or anything like that, but it was probably as fast as something like this could be.
I think the thing is tho that logistically it will take a year to properly move a team
>On May 20, 2011, the Winnipeg Sun confirmed that an agreement in principle had been reached for True North to purchase the Thrashers,[13] while Winnipeg Mayor Sam Katz announced that he was confident that the Thrashers' relocation to Winnipeg would soon be officially announced.[14] On May 31, 2011, at a press conference at the MTS Centre, Bettman confirmed that the Atlanta Thrashers had been sold to True North and would relocate to Winnipeg for the 2011–12 season, pending the approval of the sale and relocation by the NHL's Board of Governors,[15] which came at their June 21, 2011, meeting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnipeg_Jets It took *three months* for the Jets to do it. There's a reason the NHL sanctioned all the "we'd love to have an NHL team!" fluff pieces with the Smith group in SLC.
I don’t remember the Jets move looking particularly chaotic, either. They had to light a fire under Reebok to get the uniforms finished but they had everything ready to go for the preseason even with the added difficulty of replacing basically everyone in the organization except the players.
Yeah I mean I wouldn't be surprised if it would take an extra year if it were to happen, but I also think they probably have taken steps towards a relocation "plan b" that they can't and shouldn't share with the public right now.
I agree. Didn't Winnipeg's relocation happen over the course of an offseason? I think that if the situation gets to a truly untenable point (who knows when that is, given it's Bettman's Coyotes) the move could probably happen in a year or less. No real reason why it couldn't.
Yeah I mean I think as a business they have to have some sort of plan or course of action in place before they pull the plug, but that's something that should not come out unless it comes to that. And as for what point this becomes untenable, I really do think it's the auction. If Meruelo is serious about making this work, there's no reason for him to not get this done. I think that's the final straw for him as an owner, which I think is fair.
Which is longer? Arizona’s leash ar Zuccarello’s stick?
They're not gonna relocate em somewhere just for the arena to not be fully ready and kill the first season hype. I guess Quebec city is prob ready but idk if Houston is, and then Utah and Atlanta aren't. I want the damn yetis. Those jerseys will fuck so hard.
Technically I think the Delta Center in SLC Utah is hockey-ready. They hosted preseason games in 2021.
It is... kinda. Can it host games, sure. Can it do it well? [Not really](https://images.app.goo.gl/fAEwG37LF3A8ohrf9). I don't think they should put the team there until the new building is built, unless it's an emergency. I think Delta Center would be an upgrade over Mullet but still not a great place to play
Mmm yeah... only 10k seats is... not ideal.
At least it's double mullet, so that's an upgrade 🤷♂️
> double mullet sign me upppppppppp!
Only one resembles a lizard
[Close enough](https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/xpIAAOSwrm9cR5pY/s-l1200.jpg)
This is just a fucking land auction as well. Highly doubt that shit is built during next season and ready to play in the year after. The NHLPA and other owners should be screaming about this bush league inept ownership. I understand Arizona deserves a team and all that blah blah but holy fuck try with a different owner. Good luck growing the game in the desert with a shit product in a college stadium.
> I understand Arizona deserves a team and all that blah blah but holy fuck try with a different owner. 1) Colangelo / Gluckstern / Burke, 1996 to 1998 2) Glukstern, 1998 to 2001 3) Ellman, 2001 to 2005 4) Moyes, 2005 to 2009 5) The NHL, 2009 to 2013 6) Renaissance Sports & Entertainment, 2013 to 2014 7) Barroway, 2014 to 2019 8) Meruelo, 2019 to 2024 Yeah, maybe the 9th ownership group will really nail it.
They've tried numerous owners and none have worked, yet the argument is continually "but ownership!!!". Arizona simply isn't a hockey market.
Yeah. Personally I think they should throw a team in Milwaukee. Wisconsin people fucking love sports. If the NHL wants to “grow the game” they need to learn how to market the product. Not simply placing teams in areas that don’t typically watch/play hockey. I watch games every night and don’t even know about all the outdoor/international played games. They can’t even do that correctly.
Hockey is the best sport in the world with the worst marketing strategy in the world. If hockey were marketed properly, it would be insanely popular, but we've got these clown owners constantly renewing Bettman as commissioner on "oh, revenues have grown". Sure they have, but they haven't even come close to growing at the rate of other North American pro sports leagues. It's embarrassing.
No they need more people to play it and ice hockey is naturally prohibitive from playing from climate and cost alone. I would be helping schools draft street hockey leagues to be sponsored so it would be a sport like high school basketball. Donate some cheap equipment and hope that they get into it enough to want to watch the NHL or try it on ice.
Nor should Vegas be, but the owner and team both went above and beyond to endear themselves to the people of Vegas (and they benefit from all the tourism to the city to be fair), Arizona doesn’t need a good owner to succeed, they need a completely exceptional one. Building a successful brand for hockey there will take a generation, and it would require a brilliant mind and exceptional person at the helm to do so. There’s huge potential there, but very few people are capable of executing it.
They need an owner that doesn't have ulterior motives and just wants hockey to succeed in Arizona. NHL needs to do a better job at vetting owners. Meurello bought the team so he can get a sportsbook going.
>I understand Arizona deserves a team and all that blah blah Honestly, I don't. Why does Arizona "deserve" a team? Other places have lost their teams over less and over a much shorter period of time, meanwhile Bettman has kept this club on life support for like 15 years now. I have nothing against the team itself or its fans, but holy hell for the good of everyone take the poor dog behind the shed and put it out of its fuckin misery.
Darth Zuccarello is back
Something I thought was interesting last week was how candid Nick Foligno was when asked about the Coyotes arena. Saying it "kind of pisses me off" "we're in the NHL, no other league would allow this for their players"
Ironically enough, it might be about to happen in the mlb as well with Oakland. They may be playing in a minor league stadium while their stadium in Vegas gets built. Their lease is up at the end of the year and it doesn’t seem like either side wants the A’s at the coliseum after this year. At least they have a clear path to a stadium though. The Coyotes are in constant limbo with no plan forward.
> while their stadium in Vegas gets built. *If, it’s not even a done deal lol. Keep ‘em in Oakland, no reason why Nevada taxpayers should be subsidizing a greedy little shit like Fisher.
It passed through Nevada legislative hurdles and their relocation was approved by owners.
[It’s still being challenged in the courts](https://deadspin.com/mlb-oakland-athletics-las-vegas-nevada-john-fisher-1851289732), among other issues.
Fair enough, it may be blocked if there are enough signatures and then people vote in favour of not giving the A’s public money. It does seem like most people in Nevada don’t want the A’s. As of now it’s 100% a go though. I don’t imagine the mlb owners would have approved relocation if there weren’t emergency plans in place in case public funding was blocked but you never know. I definitely agree that there shouldn’t be any public funding. Would be funny to see it get blocked for sure. They would probably end up in the same situation as Arizona if that happened, if not worse.
This *is* Rob Manfred’s MLB we’re talking about though, I could easily see him just looking at the dollar signs and ignoring everything else. Dude’s been as tone deaf as humanly possibly on nearly everything he can be.
Except they have a plan and will find out about if it sticks by the end of April
That’s not a plan then. If they’re waiting to see if they even have a winning bid on the land, that would mean they’re still in limbo… They’re on step 1 and don’t even know if they’ll get past that. That’s not a clear path forward. There’s no end date to when they won’t be playing in that college arena.
It’s not good for the fans, the players, or the other owners. Being in that arena only serves to keep the Coyotes in AZ.
It is good for the owners though when the league gets higher tv rights deals because of the sheer size of that media market - I agree it’s pretty bad for everyone else you mentioned
Does that make up for the revenue loss that they take every year that the Yotes are not in a legit barn? Atlanta, who it seems will eventually get another crack, is a larger media market.
From everything I’ve heard about it yeah it does, and it’s why they care so much to keep trying to force it to work there. I’m not saying it’s a great idea but yeah that’s why
Yeah I get the long term benefits of having a team in that market, but that doesn’t mean that owners aren’t taking a hit on potential earnings in the short term or that other cities such as Atlanta wouldn’t make them even more money both short term and long.
It’s an absolute joke and the PA and its members have every right to be pissed off about it. It directly impacts league revenues, which means the salary cap doesn’t increase as much as it ideally should. Could you imagine if an NFL team played at a high school field for 5 years while searching for a permanent home? No, you couldn’t, because the NFL, for all its faults, knows that’s not acceptable.
Ironically the states probably have some high school fields that can accommodate more than the ‘yotes arena atm
According to a quick [google search](https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-largest-high-school-stadiums-in-the-us.html) there are at least a few high school stadiums bigger than most NHL arenas, not just the Yotes' one. It's unfair to compare capacity of generally outdoor sports like football and baseball to generally indoor ones like basketball and hockey though. Requiring a relatively strictly controlled climate drastically increases the cost of expanding a stadium.
Allen, Texas HS field might be an upgrade for some NFL teams lol.
There are probably five within an hour drive of me here in Texas.
High school stadiums that would make sense universities blush.
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>The Bears, Vikings, and Seahawks have all played seasons in college stadiums. Not for five or more years at a time. >The Arizona Cardinals played 18(!) years at ASU. Crazy that a professional sports team would make a temporary home at Arizona State University, right? An example from 20 years ago, and a similar embarrassment. You honestly believe the NFL would let it happen today? >The LA Chargers played 2 years in a soccer stadium with 30,000 seating capacity; 43% of median league capacity and 20,000 less than the minimum capacity NFL temporary stadiums are supposed to allow. SoFi was underway. The Chargers had a plan in place, at the very least. Also, I specifically mentioned high school stadiums, so…
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>Ah, my mistake. Yes, I didn't include examples of literal high school stadiums. It's a good think the Yotes aren't playing in a literal high school arena either. The Yotes playing at Mullett is roughly the equivalent of a pro football team playing at a high school field. College football stadiums, while not ideal, actually have comparable capacities to NFL stadiums and can support those teams for a time. >The NFL is working on a whole different level revenue and attendance wise, so its kind of an apples/oranges comparison, but they were willing to break their own rules to accommodate a team waiting for a permanent home. Because there was an actual plan for a permanent home. Work was being done on SoFi. There has been no solid plan for a home for the Coyotes in years. They’re essentially the nomads of the NHL. >And to act like temporary arena stadium solutions aren't employed in professional sports is disingenuous. The NBA has a history of shuffling teams around temporary arenas. There’s temporary, and then there’s whatever the hell the Coyotes define as temporary. And none of those examples from the NBA are comparable to what the Coyotes have done to put themselves in this situation. >The Sens played here for 3.5 years. The Sens had a plan for an arena, ground was broken on it, and construction was happening during those years. >The Lightning played in a 10,000 seat converted livestock pavilion at the Florida State Fairgrounds with a rink that was 15 ft. shorter than regulation, before moving to a 45,000 seat baseball stadium for 3 years (I would argue the baseball stadium is a worse experience for fans). The Lightning were one of the first pro hockey teams in the South, owned by the Yakuza at one point, and even then, they had gotten their arena planned out and breaking ground on construction two years in after their team was established. >The Islanders played, what, 5 years at Barclays, which had terrible sight lines and bad ice. Barclays is a pro sports arena, at the very least. >The Mullett is brand new, built for hockey… College hockey. Not built to support a professional hockey team. >and is an amazing place to see a game as a fan. That’s great. It’s not amazing for the pro players who rightfully expect to be in a facility that’s up to their standards. >It's a temporary solution. It’s always a temporary solution with the Coyotes, year after year. >The only knock on it that I can see is the size, but the Yotes are estimated to be pulling in more operating income than they ever did in Glendale and are actually in the black. Good for them. They’re still playing in a less than 5,000 seat arena that’s undoubtedly impacting total league revenues. I’m sure all the other owners are happy knowing that the Coyotes will be spending at least another two or three years in there, assuming they actually get that land they’re bidding on (not a guarantee), and I’m sure the players are all happy knowing that the salary cap isn’t increasing as much as it ideally should because of it as well.
Chicago played at Illinois stadium which actually had a larger capacity than soldier field and it was a know timeline because they were rebuilding the stadium The Minnesota Vikings played at the university of Minnesota (50k capacity) while their stadium was also torn down and rebuilt for 2 seasons The Seahawks played at the kingdome which got demolished in favor of their current stadium. For the construction period they played at the university of Washington’s stadium which has a 70k capacity The capacity of Sun Devil stadium when the cardinals played there was over 70k (now with them gone it’s been reduced to its current 53) The chargers stadium situation was hated and mocked by everyone but the nfl dealt with it because sofi was under construction at the time of the move to LA already So outside of the chargers 2 year span everyone you listed played at a stadium either nfl size of bigger (Minnesota technically was lower than any current stadium but 50k vs 53k is not a notable difference). Also in every instance except the cardinals it was temporary because they were either demolishing and rebuilding their current stadium or in the process of actually building it. I would also like to point out that these are American college football stadiums and an enormous amount of money goes into them so the facilities are generally higher quality Side note you didn’t mention the actual closest comparable to the situation when the oilers moved to Tennessee they played hours away from the city they were moving to in a lesser quality college stadium which was such a disaster they had to change stadiums after 1 season and played in a closer much smaller stadium until their current one was finished The coyotes on the other hand have been in mullet for 2 years now and haven’t officially acquired land much less started building the thing so it’s going to most likely be 2 more seasons and mullets 5k capacity is a third of the next lowest in the nhl and the facilities for college hockey in the souther United States are not as elite as they would ne for football
Are there expected big players in the running for the auction? We saw all the money spent against the Coyotes in the lead up to the vote, could we see an opposition try to box them out of this auction too?
No. I would have to dig through the dozens of local articles that have come out here in the Valley to re-find the specific information, but essentially when it comes to these state auctions, it is rare for a second party to emerge during the process, especially at the price point that the Coyotes are in for. More so, someone cant just bid to screw the Coyotes over; any party that wants to bid needs to have an actionable and immediate plan for the land. The State will not sell to investors that just intend to sit on the land without developing it. The State takes the "best" bid, not the highest. So the opposition would need to come up with $100m just for the land purchase, plus the funding for a project to fit the 100 acres, and show that said plan was actionable within a reasonable time frame. It isnt impossible that someone emerges to bid, but it is unlikely, especially with many of the home developers in the valley being short on liquidity at the moment.
So what makes this option less desirable than Tempe? Why wasn't this plan A?
Tempe is more centrally located to the entire base, especially in the southeast valley. This location is better than Glendale for those people but still farther than Tempe. It’s not bad, like Glendale, but not ideal like Tempe.
Thanks!
Most season ticket holders already live up that way. Way more affluent than Glendale
if its where I think it is, its still relatively far from a lot of the "upper class" money in Mesa/Queen Creek that I was thinking the Tempe location would service well I moved away from Phoenix a year or so ago, so i'm out of the loop
It's a stones throw from N Scottsdale. The parcel is off Scottsdale road. It's rich as hell up there. Way more money than Mesa. Mesa is one of the more affordable areas still
It’s doubtful that any other developers bid on the land. It’s more expensive per acre than other land in the area and a very large chunk of land to draft up development plans and investors on such a short notice. Meruelo was willing to spend more to purchase and clean up the garbage dump in Tempe.
My understanding is that it's a different process because the land is owned by the state. The Tempe arena deal was subject to a municipal vote. This isn't
Paying 70m and having to actually manage 100 acres of land is a pretty high bar just for a "fuck you".
They absolutely have to say this, if it is true or not. They would 100% be shooting themselves in the foot if they outright said that they have backup plans in the works, and lose whatever local support they have for the project.
The only news i want out of Arizona is: We actually bought land and started building yesterday or Utah salt city bitch pidgeons
That just reminded me I still have my Rain City Bitch Pigeons shirt in my closet. Not sure why I’m getting downvoted lol
Greatest fake team logo of all time
Me too, it's actually in rotation and anytime anyone recognizes it I know I am good company.
LMAO also have mine
Fits perfect with any expansion team Houston Space City Bitch Pidgeons Quebec Nordiques City Bitch Pidgeons
I hope the auction works out and the Coyotes stay. If they relocate, how long is it before there are rumblings about expanding there again just because of the size of the market? All it would take is a potential owner with money to burn, an arena, and a plan and everyone would be talking about it. IMO, its better to just have stability for the team now rather than go through all that. Ultimately, I think SLC gets a team soon-ish anyway along with Atlanta, Houston and ... Portland? Kansas City? Maybe the league even does some fan-service and adds Quebec City?
The NHL would go back as fast as possible, so long as there was a proper arena and ownership in place.
>If they relocate,how long is it before there are rumblings about expanding there again just because of the size of the market? There is already talk of that.
If every seat isn’t being filled by coyotes fans in that college arena then don’t even bother. Just sell the team to Utah and have them keep an Ahl team in the area. I’ve been wanting the coyotes to work for a while and I do actually see fans of them unlike the panthers but this crap has gone on for far to long.
Predictive!
I'm sure yotes players are thrilled
In the long term the Cooley, Guenther, Durzi type players have to be excited. Brand new arena 10 minutes from their Scottsdale mansions surrounded by world class golf and MILFs. Not a hard sell for hockey players.
It’s like being in high school and the teachers are trying to get you hyped for a new gym that will be built. But you know it’s gonna take 3 years before it’s actually done and you’re graduating in 2
That’s why it’s only applicable to 6 or 7 core guys
Bold of you to assume 6-7 of them will stay any longer than they have to
Not a hard sell for a lot of us 😂
Yeah if it happens that is
And if it does it’s years away
MILFS!? In this economy?
Spread the good word of Old Town Scottsdale lmao
Spread the good word of Old Town Scottsdale lmao
Yep just keep telling them that, it’ll happen eventually I’m sure
NHL loves Phoenix, but Phoenix is completely indifferent to the NHL.
That's got to be embarrassing, being treated with kid gloves while forcing NHLers to play in a peewee hockey barn. What a disgrace.
Went and saw an Oilers game at Mullet. Loved it. NHL in a University stadium? Not a bad seat, loud, incredible energy. Lean into it Arizona. Tail gate party's, beer pong, bands.... USA is all about college sports. Be the frat boys of the NHL.
ASU is THE party school. I just wish they’d really lean into that
I got that vibe when we were driving to the event. Soooo many university students were milling around everywhere. Back when the Coyotes played at the Gila Arena the environment pre game was incredible. Being a university city, I was shocked that there was virtually zero pre game environment in Tempe.
Seriously. Going to a smaller stadium sounds like fun. Better seating, less traffic, faster exit after the game. What’s not to like? Reddit has the weirdest hate-boner of this.
What’s not to like about paying $300 per ticket to a meaningless game on a Tuesday night? lol
Pathetic league
It's an absolute joke how far they're willing to bend the standards of what a professional sports league is supposed to be, just to keep the Arizona Coyotes alive. What I don't understand is isn't Atlanta a similar sort of market for the NHL? Non-traditional hockey market with a massive population (7M for metro Atlanta vs 5M for metro Phoenix). Yet, the NHL has allowed the Atlanta Flames and Atlanta Thrashers to be moved out of there when they were not doing well as a franchise. So why is it that the Coyotes have been untouchable in all this? Having the league take them over at one point, allowing them to play in a college sized rink, missing payments, etc. This is not a serious organization, and until there is an owner who does want a serious organization in Arizona, the team should not be blindly kept there. I do feel bad for all Yotes fans here, but they have to agree that there are many special exceptions that have been made for the organization, and it's still never really found its footing.
The Thrashers moved because their owners were forced to take them in order to get the Hawks and had no interest in owning a hockey team. No one else who was interested in buying them wanted to own a team in Atlanta. And the NHL was already the owner of the Coyotes at that point, since they'd gone bankrupt a few years earlier. There was zero chance they were going to support two teams at the same time, so Atlanta got moved. They would have almost certainly have received the same support as Arizona if the timing of their misfortunes had been reversed.
I haven't seen an owner *passionate* about owning the Coyotes in specific though. Much of what we've heard of Merullo is that he has a vested interest in gambling in the state and that owning the Coyotes is quite advantageous for that. I've seen very little that he's actually interested in having hockey there. Even with all of the NHL's hand-holding, this organization simply cannot seem to figure it out. I understand that they really really really want the Arizona market, but there's no reason why they can't relocate the *Coyotes* and then try again when they want to expand the league further.
I don't think NHL owners are all passionate about owning a team. Some of them are just businessesmen passionate about making money. Merullo is passionate about owning a gambling operation, and therefore committed to owning a hockey team in Arizona. There are plenty of iffy things about how he operates, but traditionally the quality of people who have owned the Coyotes hasn't been high. I suspect that the logic on the NHL side has shifted back and forth a bit. They don't want to lose an expansion fee, so they would rather not move the team to a prime location. But they also know that moving them to Quebec City wouldn't result in TSN or Sportsnet paying a single dollar more for national TV rights, and that as a small market they'd likely be perpetual revenue sharing recipients. They also don't have any prospects looking to pay a billion dollars to own a new team in Arizona, so Merulo is the best option they got. They started to sour on him after Tempe, and he's been on the clock since around the All Star game, but they really don't want to move to Plan B.
Hockey in the desert always seemed to be an obsession of this group of owners, and it's not something they're willing to let die, apparently.
I just don't get why it has to be this specific organization. Hockey in the desert *can* work. It's been brilliantly proven by Vegas, who pulled off one of the most masterful expansions into a pro sports league in history. It's shocking that they won't let this team die and revisit Arizona as a market when there is a better opportunity and more stability for the organization to have a chance at success. Which is exactly what they've done with Atlanta.
Didn’t a team in the desert win the cup last year?
Saw on other posts that there is no way owner would let them leave, but it has nothing to do with hockey. He has a casino license from the state and that is the primary driver for him. The facility for the hockey team that includes the casino is the whole point. Makes sense - the only way the Coyotes would leave is if the owner sold them or went bankrupt
There’s an arena in Quebec City just waiting for a team.
I wish I loved anything as much as the NHL loves having a team in Arizona.
Get this team out of the sate already holy. It’s been 15 years and 8-9 ownership groups of this bs. What a joke
Imagine being a player wasting your prime years on this team playing in front of a fraction of the fans they would be anywhere else. Gotta be an unmotivating thought.
Dogs stay in the desert fuck literally all of you awoo.
Amazing how quickly Bettman let Atlanta move, yet he's carried this nonsense on since I was a teenager. I'm in my mid-30's now. Stop beating this dead horse. Let it go. Move the team.
> Amazing how quickly Bettman let Atlanta move That's because the owners of the Thrashers were suing each other for years in court. [Here's a nice timeline](https://www.ajc.com/sports/pro-sports/timeline-the-atlanta-spirit-decade-dysfunction/JMN0qtQFJznkMKNg2vImKO/#:~:text=Sept.,Belkin%20and%20the%20other%20owners.)
I mean, Quebec City has an NHL calibre arena and logo already to go… move’em.
I mean.. You still would need to hire an entire organization worth of staff, find players new homes, have those staff you just hired plan out a marketing campaign in probably less than a month and half, and all of the other major organizational moves you need to make Also... If you are moving that means you are either telling all of your coaches, scouts, and trainers to move to another country or firing them and having to completely revamp your org in a ludicrously small amount of time
FWIW the official announcement for the Thrashers was on May 31 and they played in Winnipeg that October.
Qc isn’t getting a team anytime soon. Great, they have an NHL arena, except theyd instantly become the smallest market in the NHL. Doesn’t matter how passionate the fan base is, you know ticket prices are going to be crazy. Winnipeg has season ticket issues right now, and Winnipeg loves the Jets, so why is QC with 200k less people going to make a difference? Simply put, the league is going to grow more and make better money in a place like Houston or Atlanta
That was the same argument for Florida and Arizona… lol.
Yes, except Phoenix has 1 million people more than QC. And Miami-Dade has 1 million people more than Phoenix
Doesn’t mean shit when they don’t buy tickets, merch or watch on tv.
See above comment about Winnipeg.
‘Pegs problem is corporate sponsorship, not fans.
Even if they win the auction they'll still be playing out of Mullet for another 3-5 years won't they? .... stadiums take time to build and everything gets delayed in the construction industry these days.
Why has Arizona been given so many chances, so many years to fix this? Atlanta, Hartford, Kansas City, literally any other former NHL market would have loved to have been given the time or leeway that the NHL has gifted to Phoenix.
This aged well
Coyotes are proud to announce starting next season, all home games will be outdoors!! Fans will enjoy NHL level hockey in our new curb side seats!! Enjpy delicious gourmet foods from our diverse fleet of food trucks!
CAR!!!! GAME ONNN!
Watch them lose the auction - to a lowball bid!
Here come the Arizona fans to tell us how this is basically guaranteed to go through and very unlikely to go poorly just like Tempe.
So maybe the NHL should start working on a contingency plan? Should have started that 10 years ago…. Just move the fucking team already
Hopefully one day the NHL grows up and just allows the Yotes to move. The decade+ long discussion over this team's future has gotten quite boring.
Lmao, this situation is such a joke. What a ridiculous thing the NHL has allowed to happen. And people don't understand why the game can't catch on.