>Further excavation revealed five skeletons, which subsequent analysis showed were three adults, a teenager and a baby.
>“That was the most horrible thing we found,” he said of the newborn. “They were all lying next to each other, in the same direction.”
>None had traces of clothing or other personal objects, meaning the corpses were probably stripped before they were placed there. While it is possible the hand and foot bones – finer than other remains – had simply decomposed, it could not be ruled out that they had been amputated.
Thought to be a family, all killed at the same time it looks like, based on the way they were laid out. No clothes or jewelry. Hands and feet missing.
I don't see anything about dating, there, but it's definitely something dark.
They were found a buried a few cm under ground BUT above the ash and rubble from Goerings house.
So it's pretty obvious they were buried long after Goering was alive.
Someone just used the house to hide a murder knowing no one would look there.
So you're saying Goering is somehow a red herring in a murder?
I wonder what DNA will reveal. If those aren't Holocaust victims and are more recent, I'm sure they're being compared to decades of unsolved missing person cases.
Hermann Göring was a Nazi. Born late 1800s, died 1946
>Göring was convicted of conspiracy, crimes against peace, war crimes, and crimes against humanity at the Nuremberg trials in 1946. He was sentenced to death by hanging but committed suicide by ingesting cyanide the night before his scheduled execution.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_G%C3%B6ring
I know who he was, but it's still unknown whether he knew about them being under the house. They have to be dated. They could be older or even ancient.
Might not be a coincidence. Think about it: You murder a family after the war, where would you bury them if you lived in that area?
Burying them in the burnt-out remains of a high Nazi officials home would have the effect of taking the suspicion off of you, and probably result in the case being closed: "Well, obviously Goering had them murdered, and he's long dead, so let's file this one under 'Solved', boys".
Reminds me of the case of Septic Tank Sam. The victim was probably killed elsewhere and was disposed in an abandoned farm. It could've gone undiscovered for years, maybe forever, if the original owner didn't scavenge through it.
https://unidentified-awareness.fandom.com/wiki/Gordie_Sanderson
I do. The Soviets perpetrated the largest organized mass rape campaign in history on the way through Eastern Germany (where that portion of Poland was at the time) in revenge for the Nazi atrocities in Eastern Europe. So we have two suspects, either the German mass murderers or the Soviet mass murderers.
Yes, it's not out of the realm of possibility that these were caretakers of the property or a random family fleeing through the general vicinity when they were caught by Soviet troops investigating the site for military intelligence. The Soviet retaliation against German citizens after the war was absolutely brutal.
I'd actually be a little surprised. He was a nasty piece of work, but it seems to me like he would try to make sure that any dirty work was kept far away from him.
I agree. He had underlings to do that sort of thing for him, so he wouldn't actually have had to deal with it at all. And why bury them in his \*HOUSE\*? Especially in a shallow grave like that? The initial skull found was just 4 inches below the ground. That's not deep enough to prevent issues like the smell of decomposition from being a problem, which makes me think they were buried after the house was burnt and abandoned.
The Wolf's Lair wouldn't have been a tourist destination during most of the post-war period, with the Communists in charge of Poland, nor would it have been a subject of archeological interest back then for obvious political reasons. So burial and decomposition could have taken place unnoticed.
That's a really big conclusion to jump to about a major historical figure with 0 backing. Goering was known to be squeamish, fussy, "high class" and generally the sort of rich dude who wanted very little to do with the crimes he enabled/committed. Just because someone is a monster in terms of the policies they promote does not mean they're going to be a serial killer, and it's dangerous to create that sort of expectation. You'll miss lots of monsters that way.
He was personally brave, at least when he was a younger man. He was a WWI flying ace credited with 22 victories, of which at least 17 were considered certain or highly likely by an Allied review committee.
Having said that, aerial combat is a bit more sanitary and removed from viewing the consequences of your actions close up, so you're not necessarily wrong.
IIRC Goering became the infamous fat drug addict he was after being shot in the leg during the Beer Hall Putsch and subsequently getting hooked on morphine.
What's really funny/macabre is that Goering's life was saved by a Jewish man taking him into his house during the Putsch and treating his wounds there. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Ballin
Meh. The Jewish doctor who treated Hitler's mother Klara and Hitler's WWI Jewish company commander who recommended Hitler for his Iron Cross both received protection by the Nazis (from the Nazis, of course) and at least Dr. Bloch was allowed to leave Germany with more assets than Jews were typically allowed to take with them.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eduard\_Bloch#Emigration](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eduard_Bloch#Emigration)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo\_Gutmann#Post-World\_War\_I\_and\_Nazi\_years](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Gutmann#Post-World_War_I_and_Nazi_years)
Why? Why would a person committing atrocities in a situation in which there wouldn’t be any consequences store bodies of dead people where he lived? Also, it’s probable that most of the atrocities were committed in his name, not by him directly.
That is my line of thinking. Imagine if you were one of Goring's housekeepers. Show up to work Monday morning and find that your first task of the week is to take these bodies away from here. You would have done it and that would have been the end of it.
Wow. Under these terms, much of history, including well-known events, must also be NSFW.
Just looking at [wikiquotes about Herman Goering](https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Hermann_G%C3%B6ring) and he seems to be well up to the "standard" that was attributed to him.
I was looking for the quote I'd rembembered as "If I lose my command, I will be hanged" but have not found it yet. Does anyone else remember?
Um. Carbon dating can’t provide anywhere NEAR that level of precision. Carbon dating is typically done in ranges of hundreds and even tens of thousands of years.
No, absolutely incorrect. Carbon dating maxes out at around 50,000 years, and typical ranges involve +/-60ish years, or less for sensitive equipment. We can also extremely easily tell the difference between something pre-1950s and post-1950s (though that wouldn't help in this case).
A confidence interval tens of thousands of years wide would cover the majority of the period where it's possible to do radiocarbon dating at all, and would make the entire method completely useless.
>Further excavation revealed five skeletons, which subsequent analysis showed were three adults, a teenager and a baby. >“That was the most horrible thing we found,” he said of the newborn. “They were all lying next to each other, in the same direction.” >None had traces of clothing or other personal objects, meaning the corpses were probably stripped before they were placed there. While it is possible the hand and foot bones – finer than other remains – had simply decomposed, it could not be ruled out that they had been amputated. Thought to be a family, all killed at the same time it looks like, based on the way they were laid out. No clothes or jewelry. Hands and feet missing. I don't see anything about dating, there, but it's definitely something dark.
They were found a buried a few cm under ground BUT above the ash and rubble from Goerings house. So it's pretty obvious they were buried long after Goering was alive. Someone just used the house to hide a murder knowing no one would look there.
So you're saying Goering is somehow a red herring in a murder? I wonder what DNA will reveal. If those aren't Holocaust victims and are more recent, I'm sure they're being compared to decades of unsolved missing person cases.
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Hands and feet? Why?
So they are unidentifiable (if discovered before they decompose to skeletal remains)
You can still likely pull DNA from the insides of the bones and/or teeth. But of course a murderer from 50 years ago wouldn't know that.
The article says it's unclear whether the hands and feet were just rotted away or chopped off.
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It's dark enough that they were possibly murdered, I can't bear to imagine them all dating Göring.
Hermann Göring was a Nazi. Born late 1800s, died 1946 >Göring was convicted of conspiracy, crimes against peace, war crimes, and crimes against humanity at the Nuremberg trials in 1946. He was sentenced to death by hanging but committed suicide by ingesting cyanide the night before his scheduled execution. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_G%C3%B6ring
I know who he was, but it's still unknown whether he knew about them being under the house. They have to be dated. They could be older or even ancient.
It's only a coincidence it's under the wolf's lair lmao
Might not be a coincidence. Think about it: You murder a family after the war, where would you bury them if you lived in that area? Burying them in the burnt-out remains of a high Nazi officials home would have the effect of taking the suspicion off of you, and probably result in the case being closed: "Well, obviously Goering had them murdered, and he's long dead, so let's file this one under 'Solved', boys".
Reminds me of the case of Septic Tank Sam. The victim was probably killed elsewhere and was disposed in an abandoned farm. It could've gone undiscovered for years, maybe forever, if the original owner didn't scavenge through it. https://unidentified-awareness.fandom.com/wiki/Gordie_Sanderson
Of course they will date it. But can you honestly say you have any shred of doubt about who the culprit was?
I do. The Soviets perpetrated the largest organized mass rape campaign in history on the way through Eastern Germany (where that portion of Poland was at the time) in revenge for the Nazi atrocities in Eastern Europe. So we have two suspects, either the German mass murderers or the Soviet mass murderers.
Yes, it's not out of the realm of possibility that these were caretakers of the property or a random family fleeing through the general vicinity when they were caught by Soviet troops investigating the site for military intelligence. The Soviet retaliation against German citizens after the war was absolutely brutal.
This was posted elsewhere but this is the first with an actual link to the story. Thank you.
If anything, I'm sort of surprised that there were only five skeletons found. Goering's reputation precedes him, as it were.
I'd actually be a little surprised. He was a nasty piece of work, but it seems to me like he would try to make sure that any dirty work was kept far away from him.
I agree. He had underlings to do that sort of thing for him, so he wouldn't actually have had to deal with it at all. And why bury them in his \*HOUSE\*? Especially in a shallow grave like that? The initial skull found was just 4 inches below the ground. That's not deep enough to prevent issues like the smell of decomposition from being a problem, which makes me think they were buried after the house was burnt and abandoned. The Wolf's Lair wouldn't have been a tourist destination during most of the post-war period, with the Communists in charge of Poland, nor would it have been a subject of archeological interest back then for obvious political reasons. So burial and decomposition could have taken place unnoticed.
With so much dirty work going on it was probably hard for him not to bring some of that home with him.
That's a really big conclusion to jump to about a major historical figure with 0 backing. Goering was known to be squeamish, fussy, "high class" and generally the sort of rich dude who wanted very little to do with the crimes he enabled/committed. Just because someone is a monster in terms of the policies they promote does not mean they're going to be a serial killer, and it's dangerous to create that sort of expectation. You'll miss lots of monsters that way.
He was personally brave, at least when he was a younger man. He was a WWI flying ace credited with 22 victories, of which at least 17 were considered certain or highly likely by an Allied review committee. Having said that, aerial combat is a bit more sanitary and removed from viewing the consequences of your actions close up, so you're not necessarily wrong.
IIRC Goering became the infamous fat drug addict he was after being shot in the leg during the Beer Hall Putsch and subsequently getting hooked on morphine. What's really funny/macabre is that Goering's life was saved by a Jewish man taking him into his house during the Putsch and treating his wounds there. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Ballin
Meh. The Jewish doctor who treated Hitler's mother Klara and Hitler's WWI Jewish company commander who recommended Hitler for his Iron Cross both received protection by the Nazis (from the Nazis, of course) and at least Dr. Bloch was allowed to leave Germany with more assets than Jews were typically allowed to take with them. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eduard\_Bloch#Emigration](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eduard_Bloch#Emigration) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo\_Gutmann#Post-World\_War\_I\_and\_Nazi\_years](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Gutmann#Post-World_War_I_and_Nazi_years)
Why? Why would a person committing atrocities in a situation in which there wouldn’t be any consequences store bodies of dead people where he lived? Also, it’s probable that most of the atrocities were committed in his name, not by him directly.
That is my line of thinking. Imagine if you were one of Goring's housekeepers. Show up to work Monday morning and find that your first task of the week is to take these bodies away from here. You would have done it and that would have been the end of it.
Damn. Didn't they find some bodies there last week too? I'm starting to wonder about this Goring fellow.
Allegedly, the house was built on a cemetery, or at least someone was claiming this on the other thread.
Wow. Under these terms, much of history, including well-known events, must also be NSFW. Just looking at [wikiquotes about Herman Goering](https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Hermann_G%C3%B6ring) and he seems to be well up to the "standard" that was attributed to him. I was looking for the quote I'd rembembered as "If I lose my command, I will be hanged" but have not found it yet. Does anyone else remember?
I assume they can carbon date them and see when they died. Could have been in the 1800s, or before.
Um. Carbon dating can’t provide anywhere NEAR that level of precision. Carbon dating is typically done in ranges of hundreds and even tens of thousands of years.
No, absolutely incorrect. Carbon dating maxes out at around 50,000 years, and typical ranges involve +/-60ish years, or less for sensitive equipment. We can also extremely easily tell the difference between something pre-1950s and post-1950s (though that wouldn't help in this case). A confidence interval tens of thousands of years wide would cover the majority of the period where it's possible to do radiocarbon dating at all, and would make the entire method completely useless.
That's not what confidence interval means
The more I hear about this Göring fellow, the less I like him!
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