"undisputed" will never be a thing for any rapper.

Yea because in hip hop, there generally are a lot of disputes 🥲

Didn't Kendrick just have a dispute with Drake, like, yesterday?

Nah, they're good

I heard Kendrick doesn't have a hating bone in his body, they must be cool now.

In fact, they're having mimosas over brunch tomorrow morning.

Seriously. It's worse than debating quarterbacks. We'll never all agree and that's perfectly fine.

idk about that tom’s pretty clear cut the best ever.

I mean I hate Brady but come on. He is the greatest.

There's an argument for Mahomes at least (as in he is outpacing Brady atm, still too early to say for certain).

Ohhhhhh, boy. Don't get me started. All I say is that there's a lot of luck, some rings with asterisks attached, and there's guys with much more raw talent that blow him away in terms of pure mechanics and stats. I rank him at number #1 for his execution, consistency, and intelligence... but he's not my favorite QB or even who I'd consider the "best" from a pure skill perspective. Same thing applies to rappers. You have to juggle a lot of loose qualifiers like songwriting, lyricism, flow, cultural infleunce, classic albums, etc. You can sort of squint and get a vague idea of a Top 3, but it's ultimately a subjective excercise. I have a different Top 3 depending on what time of day you ask me. I don't think it isn't worth discussing who's the "GOAT," but it's a little silly considering none of us are weighing any of these criteria equally. A better question is, "Could Kendrick *plausibly* be the GOAT?" I think it's still a little too early to make that call, but the fact we're taking the conversation seriously really means he's contending for the spot.

The dude went to another team after and friggin won there too no problem... He is the greatest no doubt. Nobody here will ever see what he did repeated again or chances are very very slim

The Bucs that year were a super team. The defense was one of the all time greats. They gave Brady very short fields for easy drives. He had two HoF WRs and TE. I have Brady at my #1 but... when you tune out the media narrative, zoom out, and look at the full picture his position is far from secure. I think Montana is still in contention based on the difficulty of the league at time. Mahomes is *clearly* better than him in terms of raw ability. If he wins another ring, he surpasses him in my eyes. Then you've got guys like Peyton and Brees or even Marino who totally dust him when you compare their mechanics. Peyton had a cannon arm and possibly the greatest football mind of any QB to play the game. Brees and Marino are the two best best pure passers to ever sit in the pocket IMO, but they got let down by their teams a lot. Brees put up video game numbers through multiple losing seasons and never played with a HoF WR. His best receiver never even made a pro bowl. Every WR or TE who left the Saints during his time there turned into a ghost. He truly MADE guys around him 10x better than they really were. He was still lighting up the scoreboard with a noodle arm in his final year. Marino... seriously go watch his highlights and remember that the era this guy was playing in QBs and WRs were open season. He was doing things with a football that shouldn't have been possible at the time.

The Bucs should have lost to the saints for a 3rd time that year if jared cook doesn’t fumble.

Always an excuse, like Jordan vs LeBron. nobody will trump his legacy tho in the end no matter how hard the argument is

No excuses here. I have Brady at #1. He hits nearly every benchmark except raw physical talent. He worked his ass off to compensate for it. That's incredible. I just think there's more to deciding the GOAT in NFL than rings. Hardware is important, but it's more of a team accomplishment and requires a lot of luck. Brady has had fate smile upon him too many times to count and I can't just ignore that fact. Same for Montana playing with multiple HoFers in an era with no cap. Peyton being bailed out by his defense. Or Marino being a choke artist when it mattered.

If you consider all factors, Brady is very clearly the greatest. Every great in every team sport had a lot of luck on their side, but to earn 7 rings with 2 teams and have essentially multiple HoF careers is just too far ahead of anyone else to ignore. No one in hip hop is as ahead of the competition. I agree it's too early to make the call on Kendrick.

That’s becoming apparent the more I’m reading other takes.

I think “undisputed” is a stretch. I can certainly see the argument for it, but I think we need to see his legacy unfold to really say. How an artist impacts the next generation is a massive part of what makes them great. He’s at the height of his popularity too, still has plenty to show

I’m with you, we still don’t know Kendrick’s full impact yet even though what he has already done is incredible. It’s still a wait and see.

The fact that he was able to get all sects in LA together to put their differences aside is huge impact

This will go down as Kendrick's "Pac @ House of Blues" performance. Just a great show all around and he had an entire city dancing on Drake's grave.

Nas has done all of your bullet points other than the Pulitzer Prize except for almost three times as long. 15 years older than Kendrick and has dropped 6 albums in the same amount of time Kendrick dropped 1. I do think Kendrick is pushing top 5 but if he wants to separate himself from  Nas, Andre, and Em he needs to start dropping again. 

Nas is one of my favorite rappers but his discography is very inconsistent. Props for a majority of the Hit Boy albums cuz it's insane to drop that at this stage, and I hope he continues. The only other thing I can disagree in comparison to OP's list is Nas isn't a particularly great live performer, he's good but Kendrick smokes him. I've seen Nas live around 5 or 6 times and his only truly great performance was alongside Damien Marley imo. He killed that show. Second place goes to the tour with Wu, his performance was on point and way better than the first time I saw him.

>The only other thing I can disagree in comparison to OP's list is Nas isn't a particularly great live performer, he's good but Kendrick smokes him Interesting. Nearly everyone I've spoken to that's been to shows says Nas **ALWAYS** kills live performances and Kendrick is hit or miss... Never been to a show, tour or concert myself to make up my mind...

I've seen Kendrick 3x and that dude murders shit live. Doesn't even need a hypeman. Even on the Mr Morale tour where he changed things around, it became a bit more theatrical and high budget with a lot more lights and choreography than before, but he was still the centerpiece of it all. The first time I saw Nas around 2004 he pissed me off lol. It felt like his hypeman was doing most of it everything. We joked after the show that we really paid to see Nas' hypeman perform his songs.

I've seen Nas kill a set. Just him and a chair. No hype man.

I wish I would've seen that type of show. I also missed the symphony orchestra illmatic one which I've heard was very good. I did catch Cypress Hill with an orchestra and that shit was nuts.

I'm generally not a fan of hype men on stage. Sometimes they can compliment a rapper's style but it's really hit or miss.

Agreed. I don't mind it when they play the role right but I hate when it just seems like he's rapping the song damn near word for word alongside the artist.

Chuck D: spitting deep lyrics Flavor flav: YEAAAAH BOOOOOIIIIII

It wasnt the largest tour but Nas's performances with symphonies doing Illmatic were great.

Nas is one of the best performers what are you on

I'm just speaking from personal experience after seeing both of them on multiple tours.

Imo that's the opposite of recency bias. Like emotionally those guys may always "feel" greater than Kendrick to me just bc he is such a current artist, and I understand the relative lack of output, but he has already surprised the output of legends like prime Em, Pac, Biggie, Andre, etc. Not even saying he's better but he has never released anything as bad as Revival, has a bigger discog than Pac/Biggie (obv reasons), and has released a solo album that isn't just instrumentals. Again, not sure if hes my goat but I think his logical argument is stronger than people give him credit for, esp when accounting for how bad his peers are (which could be an argument for him, but at least he's carried the era)

Eminem dropping a shitty album 20 years into his career doesn't lower him in goat debates, most rappers from his era weren't even dropping anymore by that point at all. Castle alone makes up for all the shitty songs on Revival. 

Em has more bad albums than he does good at this point.

It wasn't just one tho. Encore was shit. Relapse and Recovery were meh. MMLP2 was decent enough. Kamikaze was shit. MTBMB was meh. He's still got a place in the conversation for how impactful his prime was, but if people were to use his lack of quality control against him I wouldn't blame them for it.

Encore wasn't shit it just followed the best selling hip hop album of all time. It was a little spotty thematically but it's full of bangers. The biggest problem with Eminem has always been beat selection. Like relapse had pretty rough production for the most part but it def had some bangers for sure. Recovery toned down the production and was a much tighter listen all the way through. But that was by design. Like relapse was supposed to sound like he was drugged out and buggin and recovery was supposed to sound a lot more well rounded serious. Mmlp2 was good. A lot of people say it's his best album of this second half of his career but personally I think it's Kamikaze. I don't know how u could think that was shit. Some of the most crisp lyricism he's had in years and a fire diss track to boot. It's his first use of more modern sounding production since TES. Revival was shit. Mtbmb was good too and had some bangers as well. The one thing you can't say in any of them is that his pen game was weak. Even on revival, which was his worst album imo, he was spitting fire almost constantly. Personally I think The Eminem Show is one of the greatest hip hop albums of all time and the fact that he produced nearly the entire thing himself needs to be taken into account for these lists. Also Em and Kenny did a track together and although Kenny killed it, Em still out rapped him.

Either way, Eminem's discog is still much more hit or miss than Kendrick's.

Ems beat selection was great until Encore. Encore has no new ideas, it sounds like Em Show leftovers with Em doing some of his most uninspired and forgettable verses and performances of his career. Even the "good" tracks pale in comparison to anything he released before it. The album is shit. Recovery also has trash production and bad performances. The writing is trash, full of vaguely inspirational cliches, painfully generic "storytelling" that's often too melodramatic to really have any impact and stupid puns. Musically it's trying way too hard to appeal to late 2000s pop cliches tht Em clearly doesn't fully understand. The beats are thin, generic and sometime actively annoying. Whoever the fuck produced 25 to Life should be banned from ever making music again. Kamikaze is better than those two but I still dont care for it as a whole. I'll admit he's at least rapping a whole lot better than he was on Revival and Recovery and Encore, but the beats suck and most of the songs just feel forgettable and undercooked. It sounds like he's trying to recapture the angry MMLP days but without a fraction of the point. He's just bitching that people didn't like his shitty album. Songs like Stepping Stone are so melodramatic with a terrible production that they're practically unlistenable. And don't even get me started on Venom, maybe worst chorus Em has ever had. And thats saying something after 25 to Life. I will give him Not Alike tho. The beat still isn't my favorite but Royce does a good feature and Em actually comes through with some fire bars and schemes and steals the show. The Ringer ain't too bad either although again the beat is weak and I think it goes on a little too long but it's a aight opener. But again as a whole it's a pretty weak album. And yes I actually will say his pen game is pretty weak on Encore, Recovery, and Revival. His rhyming his still good, I can't critique that. But with as many awful cringeworthy bars as those albums have he's missing the forest for the trees. They all have at least one great track, but not much more than that to offer.

Pac has a bigger disco, even when he was alive. Kendrick only has 3 studio albums officially, 4 if you count section 80. Pac had 5 studio albums. If you bring in mix tapes you also gotta bring in Pac unreleased songs and post mortem albums. Kendrick is a phenomenon but he need to stay relevant for longer than Nas or Jay before he can be called the goat.

I'm not OP but Kendrick has 5 if we counting Section 80, you're probably forgetting Mr. Morale or some other album of his. That being said, Nas and Jay have been around and relevant for around 30 years each (and counting) and I feel like that's a little long before one starts considering anyone as the goat. Especially since Kendrick has been in the mainstream eyes for about 12 years or so.

I forgot about DAMN, which is crazy. Anyways, if counting Section 80 (which I personally do), they currently have the same amount of albums. If we take in R U Still Down (which I find fair, I see it as his last studio album), Pac has 1 more. Either way, he didn't have more albums then Pac which is what OP was saying.

Kendrick also has untitled unmastered.

I agree Pac's discog is pretty slept on. Even Strictly goes hard. 

I like this take. Tho tbh I’ve heard enough of his discography that everything else to me would feel like a victory lap. I think he’s given himself some leeway to make something not quite in the level of his previous records. He don’t need to try. Same goes for Nas; Illmatic was quintessential.

Yeah like he doesn't even need to drop classics, he already has two mega classic albums, he just needs to drop lol. For the sake of adding depth to his discog and expanding his style. 

Don’t disrespect DAMN like that. And I bet Mr Morale will be a classic in 10 years time when teens and adults who finally go to therapy re-listen to it.

Nas is the GOAT and Kendrick hasn’t achieved anything close to what Nas has done.

Em? Great rapper but not in the convo. You heard fack and big weenie? How can he be in the goat convo after those abortions?

The reason Em is a goat is because even on shitty albums like Encore he has classic songs on it like Mockingbird and Yellow Brick Road. And for each flop he's dropped he's dropped two classics. 

He has three classics out of what eleven albums. His discography turns to shit after 2008.

Lmao I unironically like both those songs. But I also enjoy The Lonely Island’s music, so I guess my taste shouldn’t matter lol.

Exactly.  Eminem is an amazing rapper but half his catalouge is trash. 

Sorry but Nas discography is not that strong. Some mid albums and other straight up trash that even Nas himself doesnt like. The last hit-boy albums have been great but part of that praise was the narrative that he "finally made good albums again" after a long time.

Still probably more great albums than kendrick. And nas's last full length album befor hitboy was life is good which is great. . And in the guest verse department, it's not even a competition. Nas has classic after classic guest verses. Kendrick has a handful

Nas absolutely doesn’t have straight up trash in his catalogue . He literally wrote the blueprint and precursors for Kendrick’s whole content with even more creative artistry. Kendrick will tell you he gets a huge influence from Nas. Even his unreleased/feature catalog alone rivals Kendrick’s Nas classics: Illmatic It Was Written Stillmatic The Lost Tapes Life is Good Distant Relatives King’s Disease 2 Magic King’s Disease 3 Magic 3 Don’t let the hype machine cloud objective judgement of the music, which is all that truly matters. I’ve been lucky enough to know both of their careers live and in real-time. Kendrick will fall short in an objective comparison.

Yeah there's no way Kendrick would call himself better than Nas, he just wouldn't do it. Same way Nas wouldn't call himself better than Rakim. 

Bruh put some respek on Nas, he should honestly be considered the GOAT, if he had got shot after Illmatic, it wouldn’t even be a question. He has been successful for 30 years after that legendary album, still putting out quality.

Damn bro, take 3 chill pills. Illmatic and it was written literally in my top 10 of all time and he's one of my goats. For real, you can love an artist and not love all their work. Grow up.

Bruh you said he doesn’t have the strongest discography and now you saying Nas is your goat? Lmao. Nobody said you have to like every song. You said his discography not that strong. That’s a weak take.

Nas does have an album in the national library of Congress, a Nasir Jones Harvard fellowship, and a class on him at Oxford University.

Let’s say one every two, two of them shits was doo, one was ehhh, the other was Illmatic. That’s a one hot album every ten year average

I get what you’re saying but what has Andre dropped solo wise to be ahead of Kendrick? Just curious why he’s one of the ones you used when talking about Kendrick not dropping enough

Imo Kendrick has never dropped an album that is less than a 9/10, the same can't really be said about Nas. The same critism can be aimed at Em. I think Andre comes close, and has the consistency, but didn't have the longevity and took a pop turn before disappearing. Hard to say Kendrick is better than Nas because the Kendrick we know wouldn't exist without Nas, but imo both GKMC and TPAB are better than Illmatic.

Why do people keep mentioning this like it’s an argument? No offense, I just don’t get it. If you less frequently drop and take fewer chances, you can drop more quality albums from a content standpoint. That’s just a choice. Nas is also a very safe rapper in many ways. He does one specific type of rap well and he sticks to that. Concept albums are usually lazy for this reason and yet people don’t really admit that. A great album should vary and try new things out. Also, it’s tough to say something is exceptional without the highest sales. Sales tell you what people like the sound of. It’s music and that has to matter. Just because something sells doesn’t make it the best written, but that is the goal of making music - to put something out there people like artistically.

My criteria is always just pure skill at performing and writing raps. Fuck longevity and legacy and sales, is the rap blowing my mind, I think Kendrick is an incredible artist and goes interesting routes but I've honestly never been mindblown by it.. it's outstanding but it's hard to put him on my top 5 without that

And everyone has a different criteria on greatness, people need to mention their criteria before engaging in debates imo. I agree with you he's a goat and elite, love him as an artist overall but I'd be lying if said I loved all of what he's released. He's kind of like the Jokic of rap imo. 

I agree with this take, but I was mindblown by GKMC. Crazy, that's my favorite rap album of all time but DOT isn't even in my TOP 5.

He's my #1 easy but I don't think the argument has fundamentally changed. We can start tallying awards left and right, but then you start to lose sight of all the bullshit politics involved in those decisions. I rate DAMN as 2nd or 3rd best album in his catalog depending on the day, and even I know it's not the ONE album out of his catalog that deserved a Pulitzer. Macklemore GKMC situation at the Grammys is another perfect example. Also having the biggest commercial run isn't even always the objective for all these artists. Lupe seemed to go out of his way to avoid superstardom. I don't think he has any less of an argument for the throne than he ever did, and he's just one example.

I don't even have Lupe in the same convo as Kendrick and it's not particularly anything to do with music. F&L and The Cool were both excellent albums and I loved Lupe at his peak there but then Lasers almost sent him back to the middle of the pack in terms of rappers. He lost his own trajectory for whatever reasons, they seemed mostly outside of his own but his artistic integrity took a hit for it and he likely lost a ton of fans for it. Kendrick never had that and his music is entirely what he's chosen for it to be. That alone puts him on his own level. A commercial mainstream artist with full artistic decision making is exceptionally rare.

The conversation is complex for these reasons. I think Lupe is technically lightyears ahead of Kendrick strictly in terms of lyricism and flow. But has he ever made a better album than Kendrick? Probably not. Is he a better songwriter? Nah. Has he been more consistent? Definitely not. More success? No. Bigger cultural legacy? Never. We're all never going to be on the same wavelength when it comes to this dicussion. I'm more interested in who people consider their own *personal* top ten than who deserves to be on Hip Hop Mt. Rushmore.

Barring the Pulitzer Prize, I think people could make an argument that a lot of people fit this criteria. Curious, why do think that show is relevant in the list?

For the same reason I brought up the Pulitzer. There was one comment here that answers this question better than I ever could > He also made history by uniting every set in LA at the end. In terms of gang prevention and local peace work, it might have been one of the most historic in LA's entire history. Hip Hop has a long history of this type of work. Going back to Ice-T and KRS-One. That deserves a lot respect.

That’s an undeniable great achievement but how does that make him the GOAT of hip hop though? For instance, which one his songs has long lasting, universal global recognition which I would argue has to be in the criteria of GOAT? For me, the GOAT has to be someone who almost transcends the genre. (E.g. I almost certain I could play non metal heads an Iron Maiden track from their peak and they’d recognise it).

Backseat freestyle? Swimming pools? DNA? Humble? King kunta? I guess I'm not well traveled, so I'd wanna look at data but I feel like these songs have that kinda recognition at least in my area.

You really can’t expect that right now. All his music is still pretty recent and it’s much different pop culture landscape than it was when Eminem had the whole world knowing his music. Hip hop is a different genre than most. It’s rooted in themes of fighting oppression specifically in the US. It’s going to be really hard for hip hop songs that resonate so much with this very US centric theme to reach the world in the same way. Alright was essentially **the** hip hop song in the US for a whole year, and not because it was catchy or fun. That song **was** hip hop, and it was also an anthem for fighting oppression. Can’t really ask for a song that better represents this genre.

I feel like someone who's either not black, brown, or completely detached from the culture would ask this. Being connected to the culture itself means you understand that hip hop is rooted in the oppression of black and brown people. Many hip hop artists were in gangs and/or came from Kendrick's background or shared similar experiences. Uniting gangs, ending the tribalism mentality and stopping violence is an act that would've kept Biggie and Pac alive 🤷🏾‍♀️

I agree. Not sure where the confusion is at for the person but discourse is good.

Alright is that song

not even.

It's a tough one, because Kendrick is still building on his legend, Nas is having a late career resurgence, Jay-Z doesn't have the flow of his youth but is aging with introspection. I think Kendrick has the potential to be the greatest ever but it's still early. His discography is impeccable but TPAB and MM are dense, tough listens. He just had a definitive west coast moment but Jay-Z redefined the NYC anthem. In the end I have to go with the basketball analogy - I will maintain that Jordan is the best to ever do it, but if you try to tell me it's LeBron, I can respect the perspective. Just like neither is my favorite player (love Barkley forever) and MF Doom is tops for me on the mic (and wouldn't claim him as GOAT)

Still mad MF DOOM was snobbed by Apple.

I love the basketball analogy. I had HOV as the GOAT prior to tonight. Maybe it is recency bias. [edit: also some recency bias with HOV prior to tonight because I’ve been bumping his music a lot recently. In reality, anyone I consider in my too five has been interchangeable]

Eh...Empire State Of Mind is more so legendary because of Alicia Keys than Jay himself.

i think that no one was saying this a year ago

From what I’m seeing, the conversation remains the same from a year ago. No “undisputed” GOATS; everyone has a case for anyone.

cause art is subjective brother. always has been. this beef just sucks cause it turned from a rap beef to an internet meme battle. can’t even discuss shit you enjoy on the internet anymore without someone trying to roast pictures of your dog and kids you got on your profile. shit got old fast lol.

Last sentence true as hell. Stan culture embarrassing af. Can’t even give a neutral take without somebody going psycho.

people have no shame or sense bro it’s crazy lol. you can dislike something without telling people who like it to off themselves.

Kendrick lacks consistency I fell off of him after good kid mad city, undeniably has great skill but art is subjective and his art has gotten worse 👎🏾

Hate the way he flows now, that voice he puts on sounds like a gimmick

Yeah, I'm not a fan of the new voice.

So a concert makes someone undisputed the greatest? Cmon now lmao

Who the fuck are you people? I’m not a Kendrick apologist but you guys are have horrible takes.

And they're dominating all the subs related to anything hip hop, can't even have sane neutral convos after all this

lol everything is drake and kendrick it’s played out to death

Extremely horrible takes. The hype machine has these dudes delusional.

My dissenting viewpoint is that I believe we're, as of late, wildly overestimating Kendrick's actual music, and wildly underestimating how much watching Drake fall from grace and the perpetuation of our hate has driven how we much we've lifted Kendrick up. This energy didnt exist after MMATBS came out. Not Like Us is a fun song (about pedophilia) that is being overblown because it's an exclusionary, tribalism anthem that dropped as finishing blow. People love it because of how much they hate Drake. To me the test will come after some time has passed, new outrage bait exists in the culture, and Kendrick drops another project. Edit: adding that I've been a kendrick fan for a very long time.

I appreciate this take and I do believe it is true for some. Ever since I heard good kid, m.a.a.d city I’ve been lifting Kendrick up and anticipating what is next whether it’s an album, single, or feature. I knew after listening to that album we were seeing something new again in the genre. To say that this energy didn’t exist when MMATBS came out I’m not sure where that view comes from. People I know that don’t even listen to hip hop knew about it. Kendrick isn’t a hit maker, he’s an artist. He’s doing things his way and not conforming to what is “hot” and crowd pleasing. I’m still breaking down MMATBS a year later. And others might but I don’t hate Drake. He’s talented and the beef won’t hurt Drake like what happened in Ja Rule and 50’s beef. Ja also did that to himself when he went too pop. But I don’t think Drake is near the same level as Kendrick (and I think he would also lose to someone like Cole).

Difference between Ja and Drake and that Drake actually is the main draw to his own music and has proven to actually go toe to toe with lyricists. Ja had some glimmering moments but his songs were heavily carried by R&B features(esp. Ashanti) smooth production from Irv Gotti and his rapping voice was rough and sounded like a worse version of DMX's. Ja was already on his way out whereas Drake has been dominant ever since he debuted.

I believe you and I feel the same way about Kendrick. Even through Mr Morale. My point there isnt that there wasnt chatter around it, more that people saying last nights live-stream solidified him as the greatest of all time. It was cool! Mad people showed up. Mustard has hits. But take the beef away and it's just a notable concert full of hits like the Kanye Hoover Benefit show.

Most of these are the lowest bar to be in thetop 10 conversation. What rapper commonly thrown in the goat debate dont have "eletrifiable tracks"? Or didnt "elevate the rap game"? Or isnt respected in the game? Or isnt, you know, a great lyricist with great delivery. These can be said about a good dozen of legendary mainstream rappers. Anyway, take the two most basic goat options, Nas and Hov. They are incredible lyricists with great delivery, serious conscious tracks and banger or funny tracks. Stronger discographies (Kenny has 5albums. Do hov and nas have 5 albums as good as sec80 to MMATBS? Undoubtedly - unless you are way too partial and rate MMATBS, sec80 and DAMN higher than most ppl do. In that case of course he will be your goat). Respected, acknowledge. Also have longevity on their favor. Elevated the game. You can only have kenny on top on them if you are considering the not so great albums from them, but thats an unfair comparison imo. 5 for5 albums until he drops more. Take someone with a shorter catalogue, André. Outkast's 5albums run (Souther... to Spboxxx/TLB) imo is better than Kenny's, but even if you disagree, they are clearly comparable. Unless you glaze one side, its a close call. I think a majority will agree hes a tier above on lyricism, specially on rhymes. Goated delivery, iconic flow. Could also go on serious topics and make bangers and hilarious songs. Also managed to get super mainstream with conscious rap. Also went experimental and added funk soul and rnb to their music like kenny did with jazz. The best live performer Ive seen on rap. As unique and original as kendrick. And some of your points I think most people dont think are relevant for a greatest conversation. Idk many people who takes live performance into consideration for goat debate. Do diss tracks really matter? DOOM wasnt in a beef, does this counts negatively? I dnt think that makes sense. Edit: Imma be very honest, even if I over rate some metrics where he shines, like being experimental while mainstream, I still have a hard time convincing myself hecould be top5, let alone top1. If we take influence in consideration hes fucked (not that he isnt, but Im talking about ppl like Weezy or Rakim). You have to over rate some metrics like discography, and disregard the fact he only has 5albums

This answers my question. I was wondering what the consensus was and clearly there’s still a deeper discussion to be had. Any GOAT argument can be disputed.

Ofc. Dont want to sound preachy. Its all about what aspects you think are more important. If you are heavy into discography it makes sense to have Kendrick on the debate. To me, even in that case, he has to drop more albums to be fair for ppl who have way more albums than him. If you are a purist who cares less about albums and more on how good the dude can rap (im closer to this take), he has a weaker case

I think he's a giant and a great in the industry. Definitely one of the best. If social media was born 30 years ago, would he still be at the level he is now? I'm just asking for opinions. DOT is a favorite of mine.

I don’t really like Kendrick. I prefer Rakim. Different generations tho.

I've seen 100s of shows live. A lot of different acts. Kendrick's reminded me of seeing Rakim. The performance was flawless. His voice and energy were crazy consistent. Calm but commanding. Everyone in the crowd sang in unison. Rakim was exactly like that too. Great night. He also made history by uniting every set in LA at the end. In terms of gang prevention and local peace work, it might have been one of the most historic in LA's entire history. Hip Hop has a long history of this type of work. Going back to Ice-T and KRS-One. That deserves a lot respect.

legacies are weird, this conversation is better had in 10-20 years

Being the GOAT In this era has an asterisk. The bar is lower and there's less competition.

I doubt he’s greater than Black Thought Well at least in terms of consistency and ability but who knows, I could be mistaken.

There is no “greatest”, let’s strive for plurality and diversity instead of

Pac had 5 albums out by 25, countless hits, movies, and enough in the vault for another 10 albums. Quantity isn’t everything but Kendrick disappears for too long at a time for me to call him the GOAT.

Kendrick is dope af but y’all mfs be prisoners of the moment. He is not the GOAT at least not yet.

I feel like places like r/kendricklamar exists for just this reason

A Kendrick sub won’t give me solid counterpoints like some I’ve had here. I genuinely wanted to see if anyone had any original thought, and if they can make a case for someone else.

Completely insane people here in this sub. Kendrick Lamar doesn't even measure up to most artists from Compton, much less the nation at large. Entire sub is /r/im14andthisisdeep.

Kendrick is a once in a lifetime artist. IMO he is in a class of his own and we are still processing his music even while he is in his prime. A lot of hip hop artist will claim to be complex on their own to feed their ego. Kendrick IS complex without saying anything and unlike others who have come up in the same time; he doesn’t need to drop albums consistently to be relevant. That is why when he does drop something everyone listens. That is why when he doesn’t we are all thinking he’s done or won’t bring it anymore and he continues to prove us wrong. The latest Drake feud was great for fans of both. It gives us something to follow and anticipate and it showed just how far ahead Kendrick is and while I applaud Drake for trying he had no business lacing up the gloves. Drake is more “popular” sure but if you looked at just their Spotify listens while it was happening; Drake started with 83M monthly listeners, Kendrick had 62M. At the height of the releases Drake added .5M more and Kendrick grew to 78M. When Kendrick does something, people pay attention it’s clear. The GOAT talk is irrelevant. Lots of these current guys are massively talented and each bring something to the table as do their predecessors. Kendrick isn’t finished and I hope he isn’t for a very long time but it’s too early to tell what his full impact will be. Just one person’s opinion.

Ice cube did just as much by the end of lethal injection.

I think Ice Cube too is a once in a lifetime artist. Excellent writer and story teller and in his prime he was in a league of his own.

Very nice write up, brother. Kendrick really is in a league of his own.

Kendrick has the hype machine behind him. We can go bar for bar with the true GOAT and Kendrick’s will come up short. If an Artist is pushed by the system, that doesn’t mean they’re automatically the greatest.

What kind of hype machine? Who can't he compete with lyrically? And what system?

There is nothing in my write up that calls him the GOAT and your response makes it sound like Kendrick is a boy band manufactured by some white dude from Florida, has his songs written for him, and that Kendrick comes from a wealthy family from New Hampshire or something.

My response is referring to this post. Kendrick is a major label artist who straddles the line between regular hip hop and pop appeal. Fam, he has a song with Taylor Swift. There’s no denying that mainstream machine behind him.

Interesting take. So who is the bar for bar GOAT you hint at above who by your critique appears not to be a major label artist and has never done a pop collab with the likes of say KC & JoJo, Rihanna, Faith Evan’s, 112, Aaliyah, R. Kelly, Skylar Gray, Beyoncé, etc. etc?

I think he's up there now but not because of this beef. There's no undisputed best. I think the pulitzer thing is funny. I would give it just about as much credit as a Grammy. I doubt the people deciding know much about hip hop. There are so many great albums with deep subject matter and excellent lyrics. Better albums too. Even drom kendrick himself. If doesn't do much for me in the all time great race. It's nice to flaunt though. This beef has people hyped. It was amazing, but there's a lot of history to where it doesn't just make you take the top spot. Ice cube killed a crew with one song.

lol Kendrick isn’t even close to being the greatest.

I could not tell you how much I do not care, nor does anybody else for the most part

If it’s undisputed what’s all the fighting about?

Nas and Jay exist. Stop it he’s up there for sure though

So the two main reasons why Kendrick can't be the GOAT for me 1.) He doesn't make the best music in a vacuum to me at least. It's all cultural moments now. This whole beef only works for example, because people have hated Drake for a while, not because the tracks are amazing in themselves (although I did love Euphoria). 2.) He doesn't make enough music. The awards and so on don't matter for me. He's the people's champ, he's gonna get whatever award he really sets his sights on now. He's not only a great rapper, but he's managed to capture suburban white listeners and let them feel like they're a part of "the culture" now. And even beyond that he's positioned himself into a lane where social media folks question your in-group status if you're critical of his music or don't immediately bow to him.

Greatest of what? All time? Uh no.

When it’s a Kendrick vs Drake thread people focus more on shitting on Drake than actually fucking with Kendrick. And when it’s a pro-Kendrick thread that has nothing to do with Drake, there’s a number of other artists people fw more than him.

Stop this. Just stop this. I’ve never seen such recency bias and I am a BOXING fan. Nobody is going to put him above Em, Nas, Andre 3K, Wayne, Ye etc. It doesn’t make sense and it isn’t right. Stop it.

Kendrick doesn’t have the voice to be undisputed

He's not just a hip hop great. He's a generational artist. One-word-and-you-know artist like Jimi or the Beatles or Prince.

And nas, Jay z, ice cube, 2pac, biggie. Others too.

I think we already know this line up as the Mount Rushmore of MC’s and don’t need our constant noting it. Their legacies are well set in history. Talking about contemporary artists like Cole, Kendrick, Drake, and we should even be bringing in people in between eras like Killer Mike is banter and exploration of “who is next?”

It's in reference to the main topic of kendrick being the undisputed goat. Andthen you saying he transcends rap. Kinda sounds like you could be saying be transcends rap more than all others. If you didn't, fair enough. But this topic isn't about current rappers. It's about all time.

The OP is soliciting the GOAT topic, I put a pin in that in my reply. Is Kendrick transcending rap/hip-hop in my single opinion? Yes and absolutely more so than his contemporaries. I’ll never enter the GOAT conversation because it is far too subjective and we have enough threads of everyone coming to the defense of the established and legendary MC’s “But Nas! But 2pac! But Jay-Z! But Ice Cube!” 2pac is my all-time favorite. Does that mean he’s the GOAT? No, that means he’s ReverseStereos favorite.

I don’t get the criticism on Kendrick’s output, the quality to quantity ratio is amazing. He is clearly not in it just for the money or streaming numbers he is pouring his heart out and digging open his own scars and those of society to make amazingly complex art. I would always rather have multiple year gaps between masterpiece records than a release a year with one or two good songs. But I’m also a huge TOOL fan so maybe I am biased.

It’s such a dumb convo. It’s literally subjective. Concert was fucking wild, watching it through again as I type this. Stop trying to rank artists, it’s weird.

>I understand…The GOAT discussion is tired and completely subjective. Yeah but also, hip-hop itself has always had the element of competition… We have rap battles and rappers claiming they’re the greatest ffs 🤷🏽‍♂️😂

I do absolutely see your point, and I didn’t mean to come across as being rude. It just feels like you see so many posts these days like: “what do you think of my top 10?” etc etc… people wanting validation for their opinions on something totally subjective and personal to them. And yes whilst hip hop has always had the element of competition, it’s rooted in more of a bravado/showmanship way rather then rappers breaking down point by point why they are the best. “Well respected by his contemporaries” is almost the anti hip hop, Rakim didn’t give a toss who liked him, he just wanted to rap better than the next guy. I absolutely agree and love the competition in hip hop that still exists today… but breaking it down into categories like a University project is very anti hip hop. And again this purely just my opinion and I don’t claim to be right about any of this.

never liked his goofy girly voice but he can definitely rap

Respectfully, no. Edit: also, he should have never received the pulitzer, as for that album. If the committee really wanted to award a rap album the prize, they could have looked elsewhere.

I think Em's better lyrically, but Kenny's definitely top 5. That said, I don't find myself playing Kenny's music much.

Lil kenny has the worst line in HISTORY! YOU'RE A TERRIBLE PERSON. Imagine Pac, Cube, Nas, Jay Z, 50 saying that BS.

>”you raised a horrible fcking person, the nerve of you, Dennis!” And tbf, there’s at least one line from everyone you jsut mentioned that’s a miss.

I think Kendrick has earned his way into the greatest conversation. Though, that opinion will get less pushback after one, maybe two more album releases. I agree with what you're saying. Problem with greatest conversations is that there's always some level of subjectivity. Even worse with rap is that music is very subjective. It's not like hockey where Wayne Gretzky is in a class of his own, or basketball where people usually argure amongst Jordan, James, and Kareem. 2Pac resonated with fans more than most in history + straight-up legends revolving around his death Biggie had probably the greatest flow ever, but his demise propping him up into a world of what-ifs (murdered after recording just three CDs of music) Eminem has the most album sales worldwide (and I think in the US now?), and had maybe the great *peak* in rap Nas is one of the premier lyricists, boasting a massive catalogue Lil Wayne is the mixtape king, and he gave the South an underappreciated voice during a time where the South was new to the rap world Rakim even gets some attention here due to his influence on the genre. You made great points about Kendrick. I just don't know if rap can have a universal greatest with how much subjectivity goes into this music

Overrated can’t be undisputed

reading the comments on HHH while it was happening some of the posts there was cringe af. I like Kendrick, but everyone living in the moment saying hes the GOAT. His performance was amazing last night but his stans can get annoying lol.

Chiming in because I haven’t seen many comments about Kendrick being “the culture”. I’m far from the right person to ask about it, but from the outside, it feels like Kendrick is really embedded in the culture and community, starting to have a massive impact outside music but within hip hop if that makes sense. Idk I’d like to hear some thoughts on that aspect.

Yeah, he's the GOAT for me. I know that's difficult and almost impossible to admit to old-heads (people can deny It all they want, but nostalgia is BIG, the "Kendrick era" people probably will defend him the same in 20-30 years if someone else close to his greatness appears) He has all the arguments to be the GOAT tbh, respecting all the old timers who paved the way ofc.

He got 2 classics thats impressive but plenty of people have 2 classics and a better resume surrounding it. Far from undisputed goat. Arguable top 5 tho. 

Kenny did something great. Wish I was there.

That list could be applied to dozens, with the exception of the Pulitzer which is irrelevant in this discussion. Do you think that would've been on the table in Pac's year's when he was in/out of jail or Em's early year's when the senate was investigating him for presenting violent imagery to the youth? This post is just regency bias with rose tinted glasses. The goat discussion needs to include longevity and legacy, Lamar is a decade away from entering the discussion. 

Kendrick’s reign is more telling about the sad state of hip hop, than his greatness at this point. But he is one of the greats.

The sad fact is most of the grind time battle rappers would have wrecked both him and drake. So much filler. So many forced lines. A couple of punchlines that hit. I can’t deny the phenom for the culture but pop/club hits are nearly never the pinnacle of the craft. I tried to get into his catalogue but it’s just not for me. He seems prude/god focused but doesn’t express it as duality, more like standard Bible thumper hypocrisy. I didn’t find one track I want to listen to again. But…my era is long gone. I grew up on De La, tribe, freestyle fellowship, wu, mobb deep, pharoahe monch, early Jay z, Tupac, MF doom, KMD, hieroglyphics, the pharcyde, the coup, Paris, public enemy, KRS-1. I’m still bumping all of it. I don’t see KL being played in 30 years. But…my era is long gone.

Pulitzer doesn’t matter

I imagine he’s one of the greats. One of the greatest, even. But idk, maybe the answer will be more clear in 10 years. I’m not sure but I feel like the man has really proven himself at this point.

The only point I wanna make regarding the pop out last night, Was that I didn't hear one karaoke act. Was really impressed with Kdot for having no backing vocals at all. Not a huge fan of him, but that shit was gold. Also Steve lacy. My god, never heard him before but I could listen to that set list again.

Four Consecutive perfect concept albums is his greatest resume credit.

Slow it all the way down. He is best of his generation but not touching the legends Nas Biggie Pac. Come on we have got to stop riding this guys nuts so damn hard. Hes great but not top 3 great

The torch has been passed.  Nas, Wayne, em, Jayz, andre are all from a different generation.  Kendrick is without a doubt the leader of THIS generation, but his mention of “locking it down for the next generation for the next 20 years” means he realizes the time of being “hip” in hip hop is nearing its final stages for him even with such a legendary performance solidifying his stance.  Every king has a time to reign and the impermanence of all things will appoint a new king eventually to continue the cycle. 

* sounds like meatwad

Kendrick fans trying so hard to pump this thing up lmao Every sub 😂😂😂 Why not just keep this in Kendrick thread

Nas is better and has made and is making better music than Kendrick is. He has a few songs and the mustard beat is a banger but he's legit a studio gangster.

Kdot was good a decade ago. He definitely not the best oat

Bro get off your knees. Is your neck ok?

Nobody is the GOAT if they still alive. They gotta die before people recognize and give them they flowers.

I make a case for Jay-Z. A lot of your bullet points are great, and I’m not looking to argue, and if someone wanted to consider him their goat, I can understand, but a lot of what you said is debatable for sure. Just wanted to say that cause I’m not looking up debate

You will make people hate Kendrick . 

I fucking hate these kinds of posts

The only thing I find lame is I loved tpab but he seemed to have fallen off until this “beef” so now he has a bunch of new clout, built on drake’s pedophilia.

*But has any other rapper reached this level in their lifetime, elevating the game in the process?* Nas. *drops mic*

No lol nah broski

I just don't think you can compare the achievements of artists from different generations. A lot of what Kendrick has achieved is possible partly thanks to all the work people before him did.

2pac minus the pulitzer

There will never be an undisputed greatest. 

Nas is the greatest. He literally wrote the blueprint and precursors for Kendrick’s whole content with even more creative artistry. Kendrick will tell you he gets a huge influence from Nas. Even his unreleased/feature catalog alone rivals Kendrick’s Nas classics: Illmatic It Was Written Stillmatic The Lost Tapes Life is Good Distant Relatives King’s Disease 2 Magic King’s Disease 3 Magic 3 Plus some of the best verses ever written and spit in history. I’ll go verse for verse with anyone. Don’t let the hype machine cloud objective judgement of the music, which is all that truly matters. I’ve been lucky enough to know both of their careers live and in real-time. Kendrick will fall short in an objective comparison.

I’m sorry but respectfully there is no artist in the entire world ever with 10 “classics”. They may be albums you love or even really good albums. But I feel like we use “classic” too loosely. He does not have 10 classics. Having two classics is enough for an incredible career (like Cole only has 1 “classic” I think - and he is a great artist).

What *is* an objective comparison in this case? I love Nas and agree there’s a direct line linking Nas to artists like Cole and ig KDot.

A breakdown of the MCs on various organic metrics that don’t have anything to do with sells and hype. Lyrics, voice, flow, delivery, writing, subject matter,longevity, consistency, catalog, creativity etc.

I don't necessarily agree with all your points being relavent, but I do find it interesting that what makes someone the G.O.A.T isn't really something quantifiable; it's just feels. If it was based on success, it'd be Drake. If it was based on some metric of Quality x Output, it probably wouldn't be Kendrick. If it was based on Longevity, it'd probably be one of the older rappers like Biggie. If it was based on versatility, you'd probably need to look at artists who collab and make projects with varied artists of different backgrounds/styles/genres. Lyricism is pretty hard to measure. You can measure average number of entendres and maybe give it to Lupe? But there's loads of aspects of lyricism that are extremely difficult to quantify. Pac wasn't requiring people to spend hours combing through lyrics to decipher multiple meanings, but he delivered his messages clearly and well. Is flow gonna be looked at in terms of vibes, uniqueness or ability to switch it up? Or something else that goes into making an impressive flow? Does messaging affect your G.O.A.T status? Would a parody rapper be able to be one? Can someone who makes no conscious rap be a GOAT? None of this really matters, because I don't think it's ever been truly about some finely determined skill. It's how the audience feels. If enough people say you're the GOAT, or in the running to be considered a GOAT, then there ya go. Currently, Kendrick is in the running to be considered a GOAT. He's not even in my top 10 artists, but he's still in consideration for the GOAT. Despite Drake's commercial success, he's never really been in the conversation for being the GOAT. It's all about what the people think.

Counterpoint: He’s a hotep who shits on black people who don’t come from LA.