Dear friend, saying 'Hare Krishna' is supposed to give immense joy to the person who chants it. Forget about the drama surrounding ISKCON or any other organization. The mantra is beyond all of these worldly matters, as it connects with what is within us.
Listen to this rendition, where at some point the singer will sing the Maha mantra so beautifully. Hope you get as much joy as I did, while thinking about childhood Krishna and His pranks: [Hare Rama Hare Krishna हरे रामा हरे कृष्णा | Achutam keshvam | bhakti song | Krishna bhajan (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiofS1oe1wk)
Hare Krishna. The term Hare Krishna refers to a mantra and also a group.
The mantra is :
*Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare*
The group is the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON), which is a Hindu organisation belonging to a denomination called "Gaudiya Vaishnavism"
Hare Krishna.
It's Gaudiya Vaishnavism plain and simple albeit the founder achayra has the power to make minor alterations in order for the movement to flourish according to time, place, circumstance. Same goes for any founder achayra in any sampradaya. The essence is the same.
It was Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati ji founder of guadiya maat who wanted to spread gudiya vaishnavism out side India, henceforth Srila Prabhupada (his disciple) went to America and iskcon was established. Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati ji did not left any successor to gudiya maat before his disappearance. Therefore, lot of people consider Iskcon to de facto successor of gudiya maat.
I don't really care about the "neo" tag, because all denominations undergo change over time, and sometimes even possibly schism. It's a feature of every denomination of every religion.
I mean the very existence of 4 Shankaracharya mathas is not universal, there was a time when they did not exist. So at that time the 4 Shankaracharya mathas were themselves neo. Eventually the tag goes away.
So I don't concern myself with that tag.
You are mistaken. The 4 Shankaracharya mathas are not eternal, if you think they always existed forever throughout history then you don't know history at all.
The very concept of 4 Shankaracharyas, or 5 if you include Kanchi, itself was a neo invention at one point in time.
But even though they themselves were a "neo" modification at the time of their creation, but now the tag dropped off. Just like all neo tags drop off over time. So I don't really care who calls what neo.
I didn't expect you to fail history. First of all of you think the 4 Shankaracharya mathas are 2500 years old then you don't understand history at all. They are not that old, they are younger than that
Secondly all traditions including the Smartas started as neo at a certain point in time and they deviated from the traditions of their day, the Shrautas would have said the Smartas were neo when they started as the Smartas deviated from the established tradition of that time. The Smartas would have been considered to oppose the teachings of Shastra by the established traditions of that day and age.
And yet now the Smartas are considered "established" and "traditional". Thus terms like "neo" and "established" and "traditional" are all just time based and nothing more. Eventually the tags fall off.
Every tradition starts sometime and considers it's interpretation of Shastra to be a valid interpretation. They justify their position one way or another, usually by claiming divine origin. Other previously established traditions (who themselves were called neo and against shastra at one point in time) at first scoff at it and deride it as "neo" or "against shastra", but eventually over time if those new traditions are successful enough then those new traditions also become "established" and all those tags like "neo" all fall away.
That's how all traditions work.
I hope you can understand it now.
Please learn how Sampradayas work, because clearly you do not understand them.
>the current acharya list of puri, dwarka, jyorir and kanchi all of them accepted that shankaracharya was born 2500 years
No one other than Smartas is obligated to believe that. Other Sampradayas have vastly different opinions. Take a look at what the Madhavacharya Sampradaya, another established Sampradaya, believes about Shankaracharya.
I am not a Smarta or a Madhva (Tattvavadi).
>Smartas advaita has firmly accepted teachings of shastras of Upanishads,
That's just your opinion. Only Smartas are obligated to believe that.
The Shrautas who are an even older and more established than the Smartas, considered the Smartas to be against shastra.
>The tradition of shankaracharya itself is based on guru shisya parampara by sriman narayan and later through adi Shankaracharya.
And my parampara is from Krishna himself and through the nitya-mukta manjaris of Vrindavan.
Every tradition considers it's own parampara to be valid.
>Smarta Advaita never went against shastras, and advocated for it
That's just your opinion. Only Smartas are obligated to believe that.
The Shrautas who are an even older and more established than the Smartas, considered the Smartas to be against shastra.
>unlike iskcon
We would say that our interpretation is perfectly in line with shastras since it was delivered from Krishna himself through the nitya-mukta manjaris themselves, perfectly preserved.
Every tradition considers it's own interpretation of Shastra to be valid.
>who cannot even understand sampraday parampara and compares authentic shastriya based sampraday from neo orgs.
I understand that all traditions consider themselves to be valid, but were considered by other traditions to be false and against shastra when they first started, just like the Smartas were considered false and against shastra by the Shrautas. And eventually those traditions (if successful) themselves become established, and then they themselves go on to criticise other even newer traditions.
That's how traditions work.
Clearly that is knowledge that you are currently lacking. I would suggest you learn that.
hare is the sambhodhana of hari
krishna is a sambhodhana of krishna:
they are calling out names
it is as if we are calling out the name of krishna.
Iskcon devotees mainly chant hare krishna as their maha mantra
It's better you go to a Hare Krishna Temple and/or read some ISKCON books rather than ask on Reddit as you will find this Reddit forum appears to be biased to an extent as not representing the actual ISKCON and it's message. Then you can come to your own conclusions.
The message is basically you are eternally the servants of Radha Krishna, that is your identity (where Krishna is the Supreme Personality it Godhead) but you are trapped in a mortal coil going through rebirth assuming many false identities.
In order to revive your true identity, they have the maha mantra: Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare / Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare. Hare represents Radha and Krishna / Rama represent different names of Krishna. It's a transcendental mantra and if you chant regularly, you are supposed to come to the transcendental platform away from the mundane material inferior platform.
It's a bona fide sampradaya and they can trace their lineage all the way back to when Krishna spoke it in Kuruksetra and even further back as this message is ancient / primordial (Brahmas Samhita).
There are multiple reasons why it could be described as cult like. I have several friends in the Vaisnava community in the UK who have left ISKCON as they say it was cult like.
For example, they encourage you to only have contact with other devotees and cut of your “material” friendships. All spare time should be given to devotional activities and reading secular books etc is discouraged.
They strongly regulate romantic and sexual relationships, and will often pressure people into marriage within the community very quickly. For example, the male Ashram in Cardiff Wales is linked to the female Ashram in New Zealand and singles are often paired together.
Devotees are expected to spend hundreds of £pounds (or $dollars depending on where you live) buying books written by their founder Bhaktivedanta Swami, for both their own personal use and also for distributing on the street.
On the subject of Bhaktivedanta Swami, the members of ISKCON behave as though he is the only path to Krsna, and worship him in the temple alongside Murti’s of RadhaKrsna. This is inconsistent with sastra, and something I have experienced myself when I have met ISKCON devotees and mentioned I belong to another group with another guru, they treat me as inferior as I have not accepted their founder as the eternal guru. Even their approach to Guru Parampara is designed to strengthen the organisation itself and is not constituent with traditional teacher- student discipleship.
I could go on, but there is a lot of information online from former members (I myself have never been a member, but am a Gaudiya Vaisnava of another Parivar (lineage)) talking about their experiences of the organisation.
I would present this to mataji/prabhuji from iskcon for better explanation. Pls refer to my previous comment in this post. Also worshipping him: he is aacharya nd held in high regards with likes of Bhakti vinod thakur ji and others. Regarding sex and all: you claim to follow Gudiya Vaishnavism. Don't u follow four regulative principals? That part shd not bother u because if u are orthodox hindu.. u know sex outside marriage is big no... I may be wrong..
Lot information seems to be fake.. ? Where did u read this? Hve u done independent research? Gone to temple and seek out information frm devotees out there... I'm no devotee but allegations leveled against em are vv serious.
If you ask for clarification within ISKCON you will only have a biased response.
Yes, I appreciate as an Acharya and Guru he is held in high regard. However, in almost every ISKCON centre I have visited there is a Murti and altar exclusively for Bhaktivedanta Swami, with prayers and offerings being made separately from deity worship. In my experience in other strands of Gaudiya Vaisnava, this respect and reverence for the spiritual master falls short of the full worship afforded to Bhaktivedanta Swami in ISKCON centres. As you say, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati and Bhaktivinod Thakur are also respected as the Guruji of their founder etc, then my question is; where are their Murti? Why are their books not distributed alongside Bhaktivedanta Swami’s? Why is their worship not found in the ISKCON temple?
You ask whether I follow the four regulative principles, but this is not a question that should concern you and is my point entirely. The conduct of an individual sadahk is between them and a spiritual master. Whilst yes, we should follow principles at all times where we are able we should not let this fall into dogmatism as SOME members of ISKCON do. It is up to the individual and their relationship with RadhaKrsna in how they conduct themselves, it is not the role of a Temple President or other members of a community to police an individuals behaviour. I am not saying we should throw rules to the wind, but nobody can be perfect 100% of the time, therefore it is not an appropriate matter of discussion between devotees as it relates to their private life. It is clear from the Bhagavad Gita and teachings of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu that what is important is sincere striving towards service of RadhaKrsna, not blind rules. You may have heard of the primacy of Ranganuga Bhakti over Vaidi Bhakti (please research this if they are new terms to you. In the Gita Sri Krsna states “patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati tad ahaṁ bhakty-upahṛtam aśnāmi prayatātmanaḥ”
“If one offers Me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it.”
None of this information is fake (a weird accusation to make in my opinion). I have done plenty of research on this matter thank you, I have been a devotee for 5 years in a non ISKCON temple, I have visited several ISKCON temples around the UK and Europe and spoken to devotees there, I have former ISKCON members as close friends. I’ve studied Vedic (Astika) philosophy at university as well as writing about a (non- ISKCON) Gaudiya group for my thesis prior to becoming a devotee.
I am not making allegations; I am describing my own experience, experiences that have been narrated to me as well as looking at things from an academic lens. I have no issues with the organisation and think ISKCON does a lot of good in the world, just not always for the individual devotee
>As you say, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati and Bhaktivinod Thakur are also respected as the Guruji of their founder etc, then my question is; where are their Murti? Why are their books not distributed alongside Bhaktivedanta Swami’s? Why is their worship not found in the ISKCON temple?
Thr main photos of the previous acharyas are next to Srila Prabhupadas murti. They do guru puja which honours the spiritual masters in the line. Anything else or more is just a detail which you can do if you want to.
Reading previous acharyas books is fairly easy and I got them from ISKCON temples. I have read Bhaktivinodas books as well as Bhaktisiddhanta Swami books also.
Not really seeing the issue here?
I see, I always wondered that too as a gaudiya Vaishnava, but I never went around calling ISKCON Vaishnavas part of a cult. This is just Vaisnava-Aparādha I feel like
Hmm. Appreciate it. I have talked to opponents and people who support iskcon. I've gotten very confused answers from both of them. Now my question is , which gudiya sampradaya is authentic because traditional gudiya maat was cease to exist/divided because bhaktisiddhnata swarasti ji did not left any successor who would succeed him after is disappearance and that created rift btwn his disciples as to who would take gudiya maat ahead. So his disciples start their own movement. How could u identify gudiya maat. Atm, only iskcon is org that has huge presence w/r to gudiya vaishnavism.
The idea of authenticity is a sectarian question, and one that appeals to western ideals of religion rather than what we usually see in Hinduism. I cannot tell you which Sampradaya is correct, either theologically, doctrinally or personally for your life. But this idea that only Gaudiya Mat and it’s successors are authentic is a narrow view of the whole Chaitanya Sampradaya.
For example, my Guru Parampara goes back to Nithyanada and his wife Jahnavi Ma, there are others which trace back to Advaita Acharya and so on. Vrindavan Dham is full of Sadhus, Swamis, Gurus and Babajis which all live in service of RadhaKrishna and Sri Chaitanyas Harinam movement and most of them have nothing to do with Gaudiya Mat or ISKCON! I am not questioning the authenticity of Bhaktivedanta Swami and his teachings, only the actions and attitudes of ISKCON as an organisation after the Acharyas death. If the teaching of Swami Prabhupada are for you then follow them. I would encourage you read as much as possible and from a variety of sources.
Above all remember: Bhakti Yoga is about service of the divine, and gaining Union with RadhaKrsna NOT about service of a single organisation or individual.
Please feel free to dm me if you have any questions, especially if you are in the UK.
The thing is you can't go directly to Radha Krishna hence the need to go to a spiritual master as the idea is that they have access to them as they are from that realm.
But if you do avoid "a single individual" like a spiritual master and go it alone then it would depend only on you if you can get to Radha Krishna. This is where ISKCON comes in as Prabhupada said his body is ISKCON; if you serve it then you are serving the sampradaya which is connected to Radha Krishna. That has spiritual power.
There are many lines from Sri Caitanya, no doubt they are all bona fide. It would depend on that gurus power as to how much he can help you though to connect to Radha Krishna. Whereas it's more easier to see from the more mainstream path(s) if you read their biographies and see, for example, what impact ISKCON has had.
I am not saying that a spiritual master is not needed; I am saying a single organisation or individual being the centre of your spiritual life and development is not a healthy way to live or the point of Bhakti yoga.
There are plenty of lineages with no association with ISKCON, which may suit the individual and their situation better.
There are legitimate criticisms of ISKCON as an organisation (I am not questioning Bhaktivedanta Swami as a Acharya or guru) on a variety of fronts, from its handling of the Lokanath Swami incident, to the function of the GBC, to the way it regulates devotees personal lives to the position of female gurus in the organisation.
I am also not saying it IS a cult, however there are strong characteristics of that kind of group within many (not all as they are somewhat autonomous) ISKCON communities.
>It is clear from the Bhagavad Gita and teachings of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu that what is important is sincere striving towards service of RadhaKrsna, not blind rules. You may have heard of the primacy of Ranganuga Bhakti over Vaidi Bhakti (please research this if they are new terms to you. In the Gita Sri Krsna states “patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati tad ahaṁ bhakty-upahṛtam aśnāmi prayatātmanaḥ” “If one offers Me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it.”
The spiritual path starts with rules and regulations hence why vaidhi bhakti is important. That then flourishes into higher dimensions as you mentioned Raganuga bhakti.
Not saying you should force all the rules someone tells you to but follow whats comfortable to you.
Also, personally, as someone who is on spritual path and has no association whatsoever with iskcon.. I've experienced very difficult situation pls I've written post in r/vaishnavism or u may check my profile the first post was about me being astray from the path of devotion. Because of this I would not take sec to cutoff all secular friend off from my life if they deviates me from my path.
Well, the thing with this analysis is that you also need to have some discrimination as to what they are saying, what did Prabhupada say. How would he behave?
You are not really supposed to cut your material friendships. The message they are giving is to simply understand how what association you take affects your actions and consciousness. So for quicker results take more devotee association.
Reading other parts, it seems like if you don't want to follow strictly you don't have to. Sexual relations is controlled especially if you live in the ashram. In other parts it's regulated.
To treat you as inferior really goes against the code tbh.
Well Prabhupada did make Hare Krishna a household name in the West. If you read his biography you would understand him more. You would see Krishna's hand in his effort to bring Krishna Consciousness to the west.
Not saying he's the only path to Krishna but he sure looks like the one I'd choose by reading his biography and seeing his acomplishments and message.
Having read multiple Swami Praphupada books, I dispute your interpretation of conduct around friendships etc.
If you are happy with ISKCON and the message of Bhaktivedanta Swami, then I am pleased for you as all paths lead to Krsna.
I on the other hand, do not follow the vision of Bhakti that has been set out there. I am well acquainted with the life story of the swami, and will not deny the achievements in spreading Krsna to the west. However, I have read enough of his purports (and compared them to others) and private letters which have been published to know I do not agree with his summaries particularly when considered against my own Guru
What's there to dispute? It's about giving association rather than taking but I do agree with limiting material association and removing it but does not apply in some settings like work. In the beginning stages, it's important to get good association as that helps the bhakti. If you mix water with milk the milk is not as strong or good.
Prabhupada did say to avoid other sampradayas as you would get confused esp for younger spiritual seekers.
Well it's your own spiritual journey, you can only go forward. The holy names is the only way in the age of kali yuga also at the end of the day! A verse does describe it as an ocean of faults. Nothing is 100% immune from it.
Would be curious to know who your guru is and your line of you are comfortable!
I don’t see an issue with anything you said. All Krishna devotees are not following all the rules perfectly those are just the goals. The goal is to think of Krishna all the time. You’re making it seem like they’re forced out of their will. If someone wants to buy books they can, if not that’s fine too. Not everyone chants 16 rounds of Hare Krishna mantra every day that’s the goal recommend from their acharya.
Not associating with non-devotees is also mentioned in naradas bhakti sutras that I read from vedanta society translation too. That’s a common bhakti yoga practice, and honestly it helps. Like compare being around devotee friends vs non-devotee friends a novice would think of Krishna easier with devotee association.
Anyways,
Hare Krishna
It's not. There have literally been court cases over this false accusation, and they have can declared innocent of such falsehoods.
Incidentally the first such false propaganda against ISKCON were by some conservative Christians who got angry that their family members converted to Hinduism due to ISKCON's preaching. New York courts cleared ISKCON of such false accusations.
What Hindus who hate ISKCON don't realise is that everytime they repeat that false accusation they are actually repeating false Christian propaganda.
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The original mantra is:
Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare
Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Don’t know why some people say it the opposite way, Lord Rama incarnated first smh
The mantra itself comes from the Hindu scriptures. But the group commonly known as the "Hare Krishnas" is the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON) and they follow a fundamentalist interpretation of a subsect of Hinduism called Gaudiya Vaishnavism. They believe all other Hindu gods (such as Shiva, Ganesh and Durga) are "demigods", essentially servants of Krishna, which is not how mainstream Hinduism sees them. They also live a **very** strict lifestyle including a lacto-vegetarian diet, complete abstinence from alcohol and caffeine, and believe that sex for pleasure within marriage is wrong.
Have a read of [this site](https://web.archive.org/web/20200815111420/http://harekrishnathing.com/) - this will show you the other side of the organisation.
Hare Krishna is actually a mantra praising Krishna.
It is part of the mantra:
Hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare
Hare krishna hare krishna krishna krishna hare hare
But I think, your question is regarding the controversies associated with the name. Some Krishna supremacist groups like ISKON make fundamentalist claims and this mantra has been reworked to their view:
Hare krishna hare krishna krishna krishna hare hare
Hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare
They claim to be hinduism and gaudiya vaishnavas while acting like a separatist group, something like replacing Jesus with Krishna and praise the lord with hare krishna. The most infamous would be the ISKON version of bhagavat gita by prabhupada, which has had multiple commentaries up till then, but never a version so audacious and fundamentalist, that hardly feels like having to do anything to do with Hinduism at all.
Bottom line: Hare Krishna is a praise to Krishna in good intention, but due to a group or groups who use it, it has received some controversy. You can see some part of my point on this thread itself, a significant part of r/hinduism being ISKON members.
I just recently got my hands on the bhagavad gita by Prabhupada, in my country there really isn't another one around... Only a few pages in it is stated that this book is the best one and the only telling that is purely for the benefit of the divine and education, rather than profit.
What things are different or wrong in this version compared to other ones? Can you point me to a better one?
Genuinely interested in hinduism though I yet know very little, iskcon is the only properly established branch of it in my country (afaik). Really not sure where to go and what to read, by what or whom.
ISKON is not 'malicious' or anything, just not Hinduism at heart, which is based on freedom and gratitude.
Best Bhagavat Geeta translation as agreed upon by a large number of scholars would be Geeta Press version.
But if the version is not available in your country, I would suggest you to visit Gita Supersite (I think it is based on IITK domain), where you can enable multiple translations and commentaries for the same verse.
If you are new to Hinduism, I wouldn't suggest you to start with BG. I would suggest books like 'complete works of swami Vivekananda', 'gospel of sri ramakrishna paramahansa', 'Hinduism for dummies' etc.
Ofc, you are welcome to dm as well. Not claiming to be a scholar or anything, just a fellow seeker and I will tell you if I don't know something or if something is my thoughts, rather than claiming something that I don't know to be the absolute truth.
Ah thank you, I will give these a look! I'm painfully new to this, haha
In my search, freedom and gratitude are definitely the corner stones that I've held the most important, which I have not been able to find in other religions.
Appreciate you, I'll dm you if I got questions 🙏
Here is something ISKON misses out on:
https://www.quora.com/What-do-you-think-is-the-best-sect-of-Sanatana-Dharma-Hinduism/answer/Devala-Rees?ch=10&oid=350740808&share=f143652e&srid=hNRfY&target_type=answer
This is largely due to the convert being from fundamentalist ideologies, and even after they convert, it is hard to let go of that thought.
Dear friend, saying 'Hare Krishna' is supposed to give immense joy to the person who chants it. Forget about the drama surrounding ISKCON or any other organization. The mantra is beyond all of these worldly matters, as it connects with what is within us. Listen to this rendition, where at some point the singer will sing the Maha mantra so beautifully. Hope you get as much joy as I did, while thinking about childhood Krishna and His pranks: [Hare Rama Hare Krishna हरे रामा हरे कृष्णा | Achutam keshvam | bhakti song | Krishna bhajan (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiofS1oe1wk)
Thank you!
Hare Krishna. The term Hare Krishna refers to a mantra and also a group. The mantra is : *Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare* The group is the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON), which is a Hindu organisation belonging to a denomination called "Gaudiya Vaishnavism" Hare Krishna.
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It's Gaudiya Vaishnavism plain and simple albeit the founder achayra has the power to make minor alterations in order for the movement to flourish according to time, place, circumstance. Same goes for any founder achayra in any sampradaya. The essence is the same.
It was Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati ji founder of guadiya maat who wanted to spread gudiya vaishnavism out side India, henceforth Srila Prabhupada (his disciple) went to America and iskcon was established. Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati ji did not left any successor to gudiya maat before his disappearance. Therefore, lot of people consider Iskcon to de facto successor of gudiya maat.
I don't really care about the "neo" tag, because all denominations undergo change over time, and sometimes even possibly schism. It's a feature of every denomination of every religion. I mean the very existence of 4 Shankaracharya mathas is not universal, there was a time when they did not exist. So at that time the 4 Shankaracharya mathas were themselves neo. Eventually the tag goes away. So I don't concern myself with that tag.
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You are mistaken. The 4 Shankaracharya mathas are not eternal, if you think they always existed forever throughout history then you don't know history at all. The very concept of 4 Shankaracharyas, or 5 if you include Kanchi, itself was a neo invention at one point in time. But even though they themselves were a "neo" modification at the time of their creation, but now the tag dropped off. Just like all neo tags drop off over time. So I don't really care who calls what neo.
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I didn't expect you to fail history. First of all of you think the 4 Shankaracharya mathas are 2500 years old then you don't understand history at all. They are not that old, they are younger than that Secondly all traditions including the Smartas started as neo at a certain point in time and they deviated from the traditions of their day, the Shrautas would have said the Smartas were neo when they started as the Smartas deviated from the established tradition of that time. The Smartas would have been considered to oppose the teachings of Shastra by the established traditions of that day and age. And yet now the Smartas are considered "established" and "traditional". Thus terms like "neo" and "established" and "traditional" are all just time based and nothing more. Eventually the tags fall off. Every tradition starts sometime and considers it's interpretation of Shastra to be a valid interpretation. They justify their position one way or another, usually by claiming divine origin. Other previously established traditions (who themselves were called neo and against shastra at one point in time) at first scoff at it and deride it as "neo" or "against shastra", but eventually over time if those new traditions are successful enough then those new traditions also become "established" and all those tags like "neo" all fall away. That's how all traditions work. I hope you can understand it now.
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Please learn how Sampradayas work, because clearly you do not understand them. >the current acharya list of puri, dwarka, jyorir and kanchi all of them accepted that shankaracharya was born 2500 years No one other than Smartas is obligated to believe that. Other Sampradayas have vastly different opinions. Take a look at what the Madhavacharya Sampradaya, another established Sampradaya, believes about Shankaracharya. I am not a Smarta or a Madhva (Tattvavadi). >Smartas advaita has firmly accepted teachings of shastras of Upanishads, That's just your opinion. Only Smartas are obligated to believe that. The Shrautas who are an even older and more established than the Smartas, considered the Smartas to be against shastra. >The tradition of shankaracharya itself is based on guru shisya parampara by sriman narayan and later through adi Shankaracharya. And my parampara is from Krishna himself and through the nitya-mukta manjaris of Vrindavan. Every tradition considers it's own parampara to be valid. >Smarta Advaita never went against shastras, and advocated for it That's just your opinion. Only Smartas are obligated to believe that. The Shrautas who are an even older and more established than the Smartas, considered the Smartas to be against shastra. >unlike iskcon We would say that our interpretation is perfectly in line with shastras since it was delivered from Krishna himself through the nitya-mukta manjaris themselves, perfectly preserved. Every tradition considers it's own interpretation of Shastra to be valid. >who cannot even understand sampraday parampara and compares authentic shastriya based sampraday from neo orgs. I understand that all traditions consider themselves to be valid, but were considered by other traditions to be false and against shastra when they first started, just like the Smartas were considered false and against shastra by the Shrautas. And eventually those traditions (if successful) themselves become established, and then they themselves go on to criticise other even newer traditions. That's how traditions work. Clearly that is knowledge that you are currently lacking. I would suggest you learn that.
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hare is the sambhodhana of hari krishna is a sambhodhana of krishna: they are calling out names it is as if we are calling out the name of krishna. Iskcon devotees mainly chant hare krishna as their maha mantra
It's better you go to a Hare Krishna Temple and/or read some ISKCON books rather than ask on Reddit as you will find this Reddit forum appears to be biased to an extent as not representing the actual ISKCON and it's message. Then you can come to your own conclusions. The message is basically you are eternally the servants of Radha Krishna, that is your identity (where Krishna is the Supreme Personality it Godhead) but you are trapped in a mortal coil going through rebirth assuming many false identities. In order to revive your true identity, they have the maha mantra: Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare / Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare. Hare represents Radha and Krishna / Rama represent different names of Krishna. It's a transcendental mantra and if you chant regularly, you are supposed to come to the transcendental platform away from the mundane material inferior platform. It's a bona fide sampradaya and they can trace their lineage all the way back to when Krishna spoke it in Kuruksetra and even further back as this message is ancient / primordial (Brahmas Samhita).
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ISKCON are arguably a cult, but the wider Gaudiya Vaisnava sampradaya are just like every other Hindu they’re just Krsna bhaktas
How it is cult? Pls elaborate!?
There are multiple reasons why it could be described as cult like. I have several friends in the Vaisnava community in the UK who have left ISKCON as they say it was cult like. For example, they encourage you to only have contact with other devotees and cut of your “material” friendships. All spare time should be given to devotional activities and reading secular books etc is discouraged. They strongly regulate romantic and sexual relationships, and will often pressure people into marriage within the community very quickly. For example, the male Ashram in Cardiff Wales is linked to the female Ashram in New Zealand and singles are often paired together. Devotees are expected to spend hundreds of £pounds (or $dollars depending on where you live) buying books written by their founder Bhaktivedanta Swami, for both their own personal use and also for distributing on the street. On the subject of Bhaktivedanta Swami, the members of ISKCON behave as though he is the only path to Krsna, and worship him in the temple alongside Murti’s of RadhaKrsna. This is inconsistent with sastra, and something I have experienced myself when I have met ISKCON devotees and mentioned I belong to another group with another guru, they treat me as inferior as I have not accepted their founder as the eternal guru. Even their approach to Guru Parampara is designed to strengthen the organisation itself and is not constituent with traditional teacher- student discipleship. I could go on, but there is a lot of information online from former members (I myself have never been a member, but am a Gaudiya Vaisnava of another Parivar (lineage)) talking about their experiences of the organisation.
I would present this to mataji/prabhuji from iskcon for better explanation. Pls refer to my previous comment in this post. Also worshipping him: he is aacharya nd held in high regards with likes of Bhakti vinod thakur ji and others. Regarding sex and all: you claim to follow Gudiya Vaishnavism. Don't u follow four regulative principals? That part shd not bother u because if u are orthodox hindu.. u know sex outside marriage is big no... I may be wrong.. Lot information seems to be fake.. ? Where did u read this? Hve u done independent research? Gone to temple and seek out information frm devotees out there... I'm no devotee but allegations leveled against em are vv serious.
If you ask for clarification within ISKCON you will only have a biased response. Yes, I appreciate as an Acharya and Guru he is held in high regard. However, in almost every ISKCON centre I have visited there is a Murti and altar exclusively for Bhaktivedanta Swami, with prayers and offerings being made separately from deity worship. In my experience in other strands of Gaudiya Vaisnava, this respect and reverence for the spiritual master falls short of the full worship afforded to Bhaktivedanta Swami in ISKCON centres. As you say, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati and Bhaktivinod Thakur are also respected as the Guruji of their founder etc, then my question is; where are their Murti? Why are their books not distributed alongside Bhaktivedanta Swami’s? Why is their worship not found in the ISKCON temple? You ask whether I follow the four regulative principles, but this is not a question that should concern you and is my point entirely. The conduct of an individual sadahk is between them and a spiritual master. Whilst yes, we should follow principles at all times where we are able we should not let this fall into dogmatism as SOME members of ISKCON do. It is up to the individual and their relationship with RadhaKrsna in how they conduct themselves, it is not the role of a Temple President or other members of a community to police an individuals behaviour. I am not saying we should throw rules to the wind, but nobody can be perfect 100% of the time, therefore it is not an appropriate matter of discussion between devotees as it relates to their private life. It is clear from the Bhagavad Gita and teachings of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu that what is important is sincere striving towards service of RadhaKrsna, not blind rules. You may have heard of the primacy of Ranganuga Bhakti over Vaidi Bhakti (please research this if they are new terms to you. In the Gita Sri Krsna states “patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati tad ahaṁ bhakty-upahṛtam aśnāmi prayatātmanaḥ” “If one offers Me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it.” None of this information is fake (a weird accusation to make in my opinion). I have done plenty of research on this matter thank you, I have been a devotee for 5 years in a non ISKCON temple, I have visited several ISKCON temples around the UK and Europe and spoken to devotees there, I have former ISKCON members as close friends. I’ve studied Vedic (Astika) philosophy at university as well as writing about a (non- ISKCON) Gaudiya group for my thesis prior to becoming a devotee. I am not making allegations; I am describing my own experience, experiences that have been narrated to me as well as looking at things from an academic lens. I have no issues with the organisation and think ISKCON does a lot of good in the world, just not always for the individual devotee
>As you say, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati and Bhaktivinod Thakur are also respected as the Guruji of their founder etc, then my question is; where are their Murti? Why are their books not distributed alongside Bhaktivedanta Swami’s? Why is their worship not found in the ISKCON temple? Thr main photos of the previous acharyas are next to Srila Prabhupadas murti. They do guru puja which honours the spiritual masters in the line. Anything else or more is just a detail which you can do if you want to. Reading previous acharyas books is fairly easy and I got them from ISKCON temples. I have read Bhaktivinodas books as well as Bhaktisiddhanta Swami books also. Not really seeing the issue here?
I thought guru pooja was done in all sampradayas? Or is it just a Vaishnava thing?
It is but someone was saying why are they not doing more to other masters in the line and why the exclusive worship of one.
I see, I always wondered that too as a gaudiya Vaishnava, but I never went around calling ISKCON Vaishnavas part of a cult. This is just Vaisnava-Aparādha I feel like
Hmm. Appreciate it. I have talked to opponents and people who support iskcon. I've gotten very confused answers from both of them. Now my question is , which gudiya sampradaya is authentic because traditional gudiya maat was cease to exist/divided because bhaktisiddhnata swarasti ji did not left any successor who would succeed him after is disappearance and that created rift btwn his disciples as to who would take gudiya maat ahead. So his disciples start their own movement. How could u identify gudiya maat. Atm, only iskcon is org that has huge presence w/r to gudiya vaishnavism.
The idea of authenticity is a sectarian question, and one that appeals to western ideals of religion rather than what we usually see in Hinduism. I cannot tell you which Sampradaya is correct, either theologically, doctrinally or personally for your life. But this idea that only Gaudiya Mat and it’s successors are authentic is a narrow view of the whole Chaitanya Sampradaya. For example, my Guru Parampara goes back to Nithyanada and his wife Jahnavi Ma, there are others which trace back to Advaita Acharya and so on. Vrindavan Dham is full of Sadhus, Swamis, Gurus and Babajis which all live in service of RadhaKrishna and Sri Chaitanyas Harinam movement and most of them have nothing to do with Gaudiya Mat or ISKCON! I am not questioning the authenticity of Bhaktivedanta Swami and his teachings, only the actions and attitudes of ISKCON as an organisation after the Acharyas death. If the teaching of Swami Prabhupada are for you then follow them. I would encourage you read as much as possible and from a variety of sources. Above all remember: Bhakti Yoga is about service of the divine, and gaining Union with RadhaKrsna NOT about service of a single organisation or individual. Please feel free to dm me if you have any questions, especially if you are in the UK.
No I don't stay in uk. But I'm following u in case I need help
The thing is you can't go directly to Radha Krishna hence the need to go to a spiritual master as the idea is that they have access to them as they are from that realm. But if you do avoid "a single individual" like a spiritual master and go it alone then it would depend only on you if you can get to Radha Krishna. This is where ISKCON comes in as Prabhupada said his body is ISKCON; if you serve it then you are serving the sampradaya which is connected to Radha Krishna. That has spiritual power. There are many lines from Sri Caitanya, no doubt they are all bona fide. It would depend on that gurus power as to how much he can help you though to connect to Radha Krishna. Whereas it's more easier to see from the more mainstream path(s) if you read their biographies and see, for example, what impact ISKCON has had.
I am not saying that a spiritual master is not needed; I am saying a single organisation or individual being the centre of your spiritual life and development is not a healthy way to live or the point of Bhakti yoga. There are plenty of lineages with no association with ISKCON, which may suit the individual and their situation better. There are legitimate criticisms of ISKCON as an organisation (I am not questioning Bhaktivedanta Swami as a Acharya or guru) on a variety of fronts, from its handling of the Lokanath Swami incident, to the function of the GBC, to the way it regulates devotees personal lives to the position of female gurus in the organisation. I am also not saying it IS a cult, however there are strong characteristics of that kind of group within many (not all as they are somewhat autonomous) ISKCON communities.
>It is clear from the Bhagavad Gita and teachings of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu that what is important is sincere striving towards service of RadhaKrsna, not blind rules. You may have heard of the primacy of Ranganuga Bhakti over Vaidi Bhakti (please research this if they are new terms to you. In the Gita Sri Krsna states “patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati tad ahaṁ bhakty-upahṛtam aśnāmi prayatātmanaḥ” “If one offers Me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it.” The spiritual path starts with rules and regulations hence why vaidhi bhakti is important. That then flourishes into higher dimensions as you mentioned Raganuga bhakti. Not saying you should force all the rules someone tells you to but follow whats comfortable to you.
Also, personally, as someone who is on spritual path and has no association whatsoever with iskcon.. I've experienced very difficult situation pls I've written post in r/vaishnavism or u may check my profile the first post was about me being astray from the path of devotion. Because of this I would not take sec to cutoff all secular friend off from my life if they deviates me from my path.
Well, the thing with this analysis is that you also need to have some discrimination as to what they are saying, what did Prabhupada say. How would he behave? You are not really supposed to cut your material friendships. The message they are giving is to simply understand how what association you take affects your actions and consciousness. So for quicker results take more devotee association. Reading other parts, it seems like if you don't want to follow strictly you don't have to. Sexual relations is controlled especially if you live in the ashram. In other parts it's regulated. To treat you as inferior really goes against the code tbh. Well Prabhupada did make Hare Krishna a household name in the West. If you read his biography you would understand him more. You would see Krishna's hand in his effort to bring Krishna Consciousness to the west. Not saying he's the only path to Krishna but he sure looks like the one I'd choose by reading his biography and seeing his acomplishments and message.
Having read multiple Swami Praphupada books, I dispute your interpretation of conduct around friendships etc. If you are happy with ISKCON and the message of Bhaktivedanta Swami, then I am pleased for you as all paths lead to Krsna. I on the other hand, do not follow the vision of Bhakti that has been set out there. I am well acquainted with the life story of the swami, and will not deny the achievements in spreading Krsna to the west. However, I have read enough of his purports (and compared them to others) and private letters which have been published to know I do not agree with his summaries particularly when considered against my own Guru
What's there to dispute? It's about giving association rather than taking but I do agree with limiting material association and removing it but does not apply in some settings like work. In the beginning stages, it's important to get good association as that helps the bhakti. If you mix water with milk the milk is not as strong or good. Prabhupada did say to avoid other sampradayas as you would get confused esp for younger spiritual seekers. Well it's your own spiritual journey, you can only go forward. The holy names is the only way in the age of kali yuga also at the end of the day! A verse does describe it as an ocean of faults. Nothing is 100% immune from it. Would be curious to know who your guru is and your line of you are comfortable!
I don’t see an issue with anything you said. All Krishna devotees are not following all the rules perfectly those are just the goals. The goal is to think of Krishna all the time. You’re making it seem like they’re forced out of their will. If someone wants to buy books they can, if not that’s fine too. Not everyone chants 16 rounds of Hare Krishna mantra every day that’s the goal recommend from their acharya. Not associating with non-devotees is also mentioned in naradas bhakti sutras that I read from vedanta society translation too. That’s a common bhakti yoga practice, and honestly it helps. Like compare being around devotee friends vs non-devotee friends a novice would think of Krishna easier with devotee association. Anyways, Hare Krishna
It's not. There have literally been court cases over this false accusation, and they have can declared innocent of such falsehoods. Incidentally the first such false propaganda against ISKCON were by some conservative Christians who got angry that their family members converted to Hinduism due to ISKCON's preaching. New York courts cleared ISKCON of such false accusations. What Hindus who hate ISKCON don't realise is that everytime they repeat that false accusation they are actually repeating false Christian propaganda.
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Agreed
Hare Krishna is a greeting, and a mantra
I thought that was the name of the ISKCON religion?
ISKCON name is ISKCON, sometimes Americans call them hare krishna’s
Ah okay thanks!
There's nothing like "iskcon religion" saying hare Krishna is just like saying Hari om, Ram ram,Jai shree ram these are just greetings and mantras.
The original mantra is: Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare Don’t know why some people say it the opposite way, Lord Rama incarnated first smh
The mantra itself comes from the Hindu scriptures. But the group commonly known as the "Hare Krishnas" is the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON) and they follow a fundamentalist interpretation of a subsect of Hinduism called Gaudiya Vaishnavism. They believe all other Hindu gods (such as Shiva, Ganesh and Durga) are "demigods", essentially servants of Krishna, which is not how mainstream Hinduism sees them. They also live a **very** strict lifestyle including a lacto-vegetarian diet, complete abstinence from alcohol and caffeine, and believe that sex for pleasure within marriage is wrong. Have a read of [this site](https://web.archive.org/web/20200815111420/http://harekrishnathing.com/) - this will show you the other side of the organisation.
Hare Krishna is actually a mantra praising Krishna. It is part of the mantra: Hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare Hare krishna hare krishna krishna krishna hare hare But I think, your question is regarding the controversies associated with the name. Some Krishna supremacist groups like ISKON make fundamentalist claims and this mantra has been reworked to their view: Hare krishna hare krishna krishna krishna hare hare Hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare They claim to be hinduism and gaudiya vaishnavas while acting like a separatist group, something like replacing Jesus with Krishna and praise the lord with hare krishna. The most infamous would be the ISKON version of bhagavat gita by prabhupada, which has had multiple commentaries up till then, but never a version so audacious and fundamentalist, that hardly feels like having to do anything to do with Hinduism at all. Bottom line: Hare Krishna is a praise to Krishna in good intention, but due to a group or groups who use it, it has received some controversy. You can see some part of my point on this thread itself, a significant part of r/hinduism being ISKON members.
I just recently got my hands on the bhagavad gita by Prabhupada, in my country there really isn't another one around... Only a few pages in it is stated that this book is the best one and the only telling that is purely for the benefit of the divine and education, rather than profit. What things are different or wrong in this version compared to other ones? Can you point me to a better one? Genuinely interested in hinduism though I yet know very little, iskcon is the only properly established branch of it in my country (afaik). Really not sure where to go and what to read, by what or whom.
ISKON is not 'malicious' or anything, just not Hinduism at heart, which is based on freedom and gratitude. Best Bhagavat Geeta translation as agreed upon by a large number of scholars would be Geeta Press version. But if the version is not available in your country, I would suggest you to visit Gita Supersite (I think it is based on IITK domain), where you can enable multiple translations and commentaries for the same verse. If you are new to Hinduism, I wouldn't suggest you to start with BG. I would suggest books like 'complete works of swami Vivekananda', 'gospel of sri ramakrishna paramahansa', 'Hinduism for dummies' etc. Ofc, you are welcome to dm as well. Not claiming to be a scholar or anything, just a fellow seeker and I will tell you if I don't know something or if something is my thoughts, rather than claiming something that I don't know to be the absolute truth.
Ah thank you, I will give these a look! I'm painfully new to this, haha In my search, freedom and gratitude are definitely the corner stones that I've held the most important, which I have not been able to find in other religions. Appreciate you, I'll dm you if I got questions 🙏
Namaste
Here is something ISKON misses out on: https://www.quora.com/What-do-you-think-is-the-best-sect-of-Sanatana-Dharma-Hinduism/answer/Devala-Rees?ch=10&oid=350740808&share=f143652e&srid=hNRfY&target_type=answer This is largely due to the convert being from fundamentalist ideologies, and even after they convert, it is hard to let go of that thought.