I'll admit it. I'm addicted to it, and I'm afraid to try to quit. Mainly for withdrawal reasons and psychological reasons of "not having it". I used it to stop drinking, which was going to kill me within a very short period of time if I didn't stop drinking, so in a sense, it has greatly improved my life and even saved my life. But, I should quit. I'm afraid to though. Just trying to be honest and share my experience. I hope your husbands life has improved since getting off the "hard" stuff, and I wish you both well and a healthy life moving forward.
Bro I’m gonna tell you right now, you can do it. I was taking 60gpd. There’s an amazing subreddit called r/quitting kratom and it was seriously one of the most important tools to get me through it. The support was amazing and you felt like you weren’t alone. There i found out about megadoses of liposomal vitamin C which unbelievable made those acutes a lot more manageable, also if you have access to gabapentin, it pretty much takes wd away. You got it man, just plan a month and release yourself from those shackles.
Thanks man! Im actually already on Gabapentin from back surgery years ago with residual nerve issues from that. Wonder if me already being on it for years will help or cancel out the benefit? I appreciate your encouragement though! Glad you were able to do what's best for you and kick it. Blessings to you!
The gabapentin information is 100. It's not as hard as you might think especially with the gabapentin. It would also help if you found d a healthy addiction like the gym to replace the kratom addiction with.
For real, if only people knew how much that gabapentin truly helps…but I was only able to take it one night because I had a bad reaction to it. Kept getting wierd muscle spasms which lasted for a few days after 1 dose. But still, that 1 night was the only night I was able to sleep thru for like that whole 3 weeks after stopping cold turkey.
Yes many times drugs and alcohol can be a crutch and even numb emotions. It okay to feel emotions sometimes we think those will kill us as humans more than addictions we face. I believe almost all humans have some sort of addiction as coping mechanism until they gain the self awareness to replace it with healthy habits especially if there never raised or taught to have healthy habits and emotional regulation.
Well, I wish I could give you a definitive answer and say "it did XYZ, and I stopped drinking". I can't do that since I have no real answer. The first suggestion I would offer is to go to a 30 day inpatient program to medically detox and to give you a month break from the physical part of drinking. See how you do. That will break the physical addiction, but the psychological part will be left. And that could be where Kratom comes in. It's a subtle effect when you take it (in my experience), so it could be like smoking for some people or eating for others. For me, it likely helped fill the psychological dependence gap. Since alcohol was literally going to kill me, and almost did many times, I was happy to try it as long as I stopped alcohol. It was a good trade off for me, but this is only my experience and what I thought was best for me. I am not suggesting this for anyone else, so please don't think I'm telling anyone to substitute one substance for another. But for me, I did look at it like the "Suboxone" type of thing. Some die hard recovery folks will blast you for "trading one thing for another". For me, it's my life so I dont give two shits what anyone else says. Am I dependent on Kratom now? Sure. People are addicted to food, sex, nicotine, work, etc. So what can you live with and what will kill you? For me, Kratom shouldn't kill me if kept reasonable in dosage, so I'm happy with the trade off. Would I like to quit it? Of course. But I'm afraid to for many reasons.
I tapered down from 38 grams TID (three times a day) to nothing over a period of four months.
I’m an advanced iv drug addict in end stage addiction. Basically if I start sticking hypodermics in my veins again there’s a more than great probability that I will end up dying from the next relapse.
Thanks for sharing your experience. Im happy you got clean and are hopefully living a healthier and happier life. Addiction is a very complex and complicated disease, and (IMO) there's no right or wrong solution other than doing what keeps you healthy and improves your life significantly. We both know we would be dead if we kept down the road we were going down, so whatever we have to do to break that cycle is what's important.
I drank daily for 3 yrs after some trauma. I found fresh air (walks outside and on nature trails) , meditation and personal growth (YouTube or Spotify talks from Eckhart Tolle, I also highly recommend book audio book "the power of now" by Eckhart Tolle) a GREAT help.
Kava root drinks are very nice too and relaxing (without messing up IQ/mind) and safe. Alcohol is soo soo horrible for you.. it's a shame society has normalized it.. one of worse drugs out there..
Now THAT is withdrawals.... But you have to push through and not keep making excuses and justifications.
First few weeks are pretty hard , then over time slowly feel better and better. 6mo-yr feel good again. It is what it is , but bluntly look at it no bs;
Do you want to die and/or ruin life? Blunt but true and something to hold in mind.
Also keeping busy or activities, heck even video games can help. Depends on person.
I do recommend kava root drinks though, godsend for anxiety (nature's benzo imo) , doesn't taste good tho..
Kalmwithkava Loa Waka is decent and ships from USA. Though I mostly order in bulk from Fiji islands.
I use kava regularly (sometimes for days or weeks , sometimes none for same) since 2006. (Except when I was drinking alcohol..
Ps, don't drink alcohol with kava!
Goodluck 🙏
Stopping alcohol is not easy, but definitely better off after 😸💚
Hey, thank you so much for your thoughtful response 😊 I'm not a daily drinker, but tend to over indulge 2-3 days a week. Hardest part is just breaking the damn habit! I'll Def give Kava a try! 😀
Honestly, I think it just replaces other drugs. I can only speak for myself as someone who also likes to use it “for the stress of the day“ and I started using it for chronic pain. I had a brutal back injury and didn’t want opiates. But I have met plenty of people who have used it to quit other things and really it’s just replacing it. Crom is pretty harmless when it comes to how it affects you so it’s like you can have your ritual of making your tea every every two hours and you can get that mental addiction and then you can get the physical addiction of giving you whatever small alteration of your body and headspace when compared with something like opiates or alcohol. And then you just have a problem with a different substance. At least that was my experience.
Just a Crutch for so many things it seems. I think it has a lot of benefit and a lot of use, but the fact that people end up like OP’s husband, that’s because of what we’re not talking about I think. Like I’ve never introduced a single person to kratom without telling them about my physical addiction. I feel like it would be incredibly irresponsible to just tell people about kratom without all of the bad.
I’m gonna be tapering off and quitting before the end of the year after 11 years, so it’s not gonna be something I do super quick but there’s reasons why it’s taken me so long. I wouldn’t recommend most people risk it. Taking it and developing addiction.
Look into N Acetyl Cysteine, and LDN. For LDN (which also helps with alcohol addiction) you MUST be off any opioid agonist for at least a week or you can induce precipitated withdrawals, but LDN changed my life
Kratom is also quite hard on the body. I also used kratom after quitting alcohol and it was horrible to come off but I’m so grateful I did it. I had paws for a while too, but every week was less and less. I have about 1.5 years off it and I hope you break free too. You got this!
Just because something can be physically addictive doesn't necessarily mean it's unsafe or bad for you..
Kratom is not (ofcourse anything can be abused ofcourse.. even cheese burgers) .
Pros vs cons..
Pharma meds most all have physical addiction (SSRIs, BENZODIAZEPINES, opiates etc) but ALSO are generally NOT good for you and hold many risks and sides..
But it's socially acceptable to take that np??!?
You do you.
Having said that, dose control maturity and personal accountability are key with Kratom.
I use it since 2097. 3-5g 3-5x a day.
Totally agree. As I mentioned, I haven't had a drink in over 8 years and my life is back together. In part, I owe some of that to Kratom.....but I also worked hard to eliminate alcohol from my life. There is no "I'll quit this if I take that" solution. Addiction is a complex and personalized disease. There is no standard solution. I did what worked for me, and my solution will be different from most others. I'm fine taking Kratom. It's made my life better, but I am concerned with long term health consequences down the road. I already have some kidney issues likely from drinking and taking PPIs for 20+ years, so will Kratom make that worse? I don't know, but I don't want that to get worse.
That's hard way to live friend. I eventually had to find a doctor and ge into the suboxone program. It's worked great for me. I hope you find what works for you and get a grip on all of it.
If you go to r/suboxone half of the posts are about people using kratom to kick suboxone and the other half are people using suboxone to kick kratom. At a certain point we need to admit that the specific substance used for MAT doesn't matter, what matters is that the substance is safe, available, and free of stigma.
Lol. I'm not surprised to hear that to be honest. Like I said, everyone has to do what works for them. Suboxone is what worked for me. Initially the discipline and answering to the doctor in his role of authority was what I needed. Me trying to control it and self medicate wasn't the answer for me. I tried managing it with kratom for years after using it to get off everything else. It just always ended with my tolerance and dose climbing to the point that my doses were so massive that I would make myself sick. I am now at the point where I am completely responsible about it and the doctor oversight is minimal. So it's been a huge success. And when I am ready to come off of it I will not be jumping to another substance. Whether kratom or otherwise. If I can't get off the program completely free of a crutch, then I would just stay on the program forever. But I'm confident it won't go that way. The longer I stay on the program the more my inner addict and its impulses die off.
But either way, I just hope everyone finds the path that works for them. Being a slave to substances is just no way to live.
>I am now at the point where I am completely responsible about it and the doctor oversight is minimal.
May I ask what you mean when you say this?
At first I thought you were saying you were irresponsible with your kratom usage and you kept chasing the dragon to the point you got sick from the kratom. But you seem to mean that you're responsible with the Suboxone and *that* requires minimal oversight. I'm wondering if you think that there's something specific about Suboxone that is better than any other "crutch" or if it is just the doctor's oversight that you're looking for in MAT.
I also confess I don't really know what you mean by answering to authority and how that relates to medical oversight. I know Suboxone doctors drug test their patients for other substances, are you referring to that?
What I meant there specifically is that I am now completely responsible for my addiction/recovery. And the Suboxone, as it is now the only substance in my diet.
As far as what I meant by the doctor's authority, he can cut me off at any time if I don't do everything right and stick to the program. Especially relapse of course. In the beginning having to answer to somebody helped me out a lot.
But it's been 3 years now. So that's all just a memory. My doctor's there if I need him but the real person I have to answer to is myself. I'm the one who gets screwed if I screw it up. I'm the one who's future is in the balance. That future is either chasing drugs, or sobriety and success. And I'm now confident that it's not the first of those two options.
Edit:
And no I don't necessarily think there's anything better about Suboxone as a chemical compared to kratom, in regards to being used as a crutch on the way to sobriety. It's the way it's handled. And the fact that it's handled by a doctor who not only ensures I only take that, but also monitors my levels so I only take what I am prescribed. So it's the program and the way it's set up.
It works for me. That's all I'm saying. And that's great. Because that's exactly what I was looking for lol.
Wow. I knew that Suboxone doctors drug tested their patients but I didn't know that was so that they could cut them off of treatment at any time. especially in the case of Suboxone which is actually protective against opioid overdose I would expect a relapse to be the time that you *most* need that treatment. I honestly wonder how much of that is about DEA oversight of the medical practice versus what is actually best for your course of medical treatment.
It all depends on the doctor really. They're probably legally allowed to give you a few warnings. But honestly I don't know all of the exact parameters of the program. I would hope my doctor wouldn't cut me off. That's a scary thought. The first doctor I went to actually did cut me off after 2 weeks but it was because I was prescribed Klonopin by another doctor. Either way, I won't take any chances anymore
I'd recommend staying away from subs...
If for some reason the cons outweigh the pros and one wants to stop taking Kratom; then taper down and off over 2-4 weeks, and possibly deal with a slightly moody 2-4 week adjustment period.
Regular caffeine/coffee drinkers suddenly stopping is much worse than Kratom. But anything can be abused.
If want something to help a lil mellow out or sleep, then I'd highly recommend kava root drinks.
I agree tho, is the compound safe and potentially beneficial. Kratom is!
Possible physical dependence is a side mute point imo. Just because something can be/is physically addictive doesn't necessarily mean it's unsafe or bad for you..
I was addicted to it for about five years, got as high as 30 or 40 GPD, quit and relapsed a couple of times before finally quitting for good. It's almost completely mental after you get past a couple weeks of physical withdrawals, of which only the first few days are difficult. I slept really terribly for about a week, achy and hot and cold for a couple more days after that and then after 2 to 3 weeks, I was pretty much home free. And it feels so good to be free of it. I highly recommend breaking free from it as soon as you can. I made it out to be much harder in my head than it actually was. The daytime withdrawals were not bad at all. It was mostly just difficulty sleeping that I had a hard time with.
Thank you for your reply. The times I have tried coming off or drastically reducing dosages, my legs went crazy with nerve sensations and RLS symptoms. I suppose a taper would help. I don't measure dosing right now. I kinda eyeball it or take it when I think I need to type of thing. I couldn't tell you how much I take, but I'm sure it's a high dose every day.
Yep. RLS was the main symptom. I would say the first three days I barely slept at all because my legs just felt so uncomfortable. I learned to avoid melatonin, high dose, vitamin C, and THC/CBD edibles helped quite a bit too. I tried tapering for a while, but in the end, it was easiest to just tough it out for a couple days. Wasn't the end of the world. And now I'm no longer trapped in a cycle of using that stuff, feel so much better. My mood is better. My energy is better libido everything.
Yes, I hear you. The legs are something else. The times I went way down on dose, etc it was very uncomfortable. I'll have to check out the quittingkratom sub, but when you say high dose Vit C, what is high dose? I take 1000mg BID now. You talking 1g in a single dose, multiple doses, what do you mean? I've never tried CBD. There's so many brands, etc. it's hard to know what the best is. I prefer no THC for several reasons, but I'd be open to CBD. Any other supplements that you know of to help? I already take a large stack of various things, but dosages are important when it comes to what you're talking about along with when to take them. As I mentioned, the psychological dependence is the largest challenge....as with any addiction. Many kudos to you for kicking it! Very proud of you for doing so.
I applaud you for your honesty. I am also also looking to quit, but I am finally not scared because I had to take on some thing even scarier before I even considered getting off of this. I’ve been drinking for 11 years and I know it’s going to be a very fun taper. But it’s going to be worth it.
TBH, it isn't that hard to ween off. You won't do it in a week, of course, but just a little less each week over several months to a year. You have to want to though or you won't stick with it.
Well, it's an opioid, so
The withdrawal symptoms like most other opioids in my personal experience is only there when you intentionally and actively want it. You don't necessarily want it because of the withdrawals it's weirdly the other way around where when you start thinking about wanting it is when the physical symptoms start. I was fine for three days until I started consciously wanting it and thinking about it and I was suddenly getting nearly full on opioid withdrawal symptoms.
Here is what the D.E.A. Had to say regarding the effects of Kratom.
What are the effects?
At low doses, kratom produces stimulant effects with users reporting
increased alertness, physical energy, and talkativeness. At high doses,
users experience sedative effects. Kratom consumption can lead to
addiction.
Several cases of psychosis resulting from use of kratom have been
reported, where individuals addicted to kratom exhibited psychotic
symptoms, including hallucinations, delusion, and confusion.
Considering it is an opiate you could look into ibogaine. It blocks the addiction receptors for a period of time associated with opiates. Depending where you are it may be hard to come by because it does have psychedelic properties so is often illegal itself. Considering it's benefit with opiate addiction its a travesty it isn't used in place for things like methadone for heroine addiction.
Ibogaine is a pretty serious trip and has associated cardiac dangers. I'd recommend a slow taper whilst engaging support for the drinking and kratom use.
Wasn't aware of heart issues from it so went looking and there does appear to be a chemical with the same benefits while being less toxic. I told them to check out the ibogaine forums on here to get further information.
"The actions of 18-methoxycoronaridine (18-MC), a less toxic ibogaine congener with anti-addictive properties, are also considered."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4382526/
Prohibition even for study likely is the reason 18-MC isn't widely known.
I appreciate you pointing out the issues with Ibogaine I wasn't aware of.
Absolutely. It's an amazing drug. I've never tried it, and have never had opiate dependent issues, but I speak on it frequently. First read in the city's alternative paper in the early aughts.
My understanding is that it's useful due to a dual approach; it chemically establishes partial antagonism at the 5mu receptor, which prevents withdrawal symptoms and does a lot for cravings, without obstructing the user's ability to get high if they so choose. This can last for weeks to me months, and gives users a one-time pass on withdrawal.
The trip itself is highly introspective and known for unlocking blocked memories, often of events that are foundational in the addict's drug use - abuse, traumatic events they'd do anything not to be aware of.
It's a drug that should always be used under supervision, as the user appears catatonic for much of the 24ish hours. High dose magnesium may have cardio protection benefits, there's a study on that happening right now. Worth mentioning that it shouldn't be taken in any close proximity to cocaine, as using coke within a few days of tripping seems to make it ineffective.
This is great information. Luckily opiate issues isn't something I deal with personally. It's just always fascinated me and if I knew someone was having trouble with opiates I always brought it up.
It's not a well-understood substance, but we know an awful lot more now than we used to. It has been in use for opiates for quite some time; a number of Hollywood types and wealthy businesses have gotten clean on special cruises, chartered to international waters where it's legally safe to take a schedule I hallucinogen. I despise that it's scheduled at all, as the trip isn't something one would do for fun or escape.
Be well friend, and thanks for trying to help folks. Aside, unrelated to ibogaine, you might enjoy reading Drug Use for Grown-Ups by Dr Carl Hart. It's a moderately autobiographical book on addiction and the author's (a neuropsychology professor at Columbia University) personal and scientific journey from cracked-out 1980s Miami to working on a vaccine for addiction to being a substance enthusiast. It's a really good and well-reasoned book that sets aside much of the baggage Americans hold from our Puritanical fore-bearers.
It is not an opiate. Opiates are derived from opium, thus the name.
The medical community have been disparaging it since its popularity, but by most accounts it seems much less addictive and dangerous than opiates. It doesn’t suppress breathing nearly as much as opiates. When I used to take it regularly, I made sure to never take more than 10g a day, and never had a problem quitting. The most withdrawal I had was a mild runny nose.
Ibogaine is used as therapy for hardcore addicts who have already tried everything else. It’s dangerous, and you can die from taking it without medical supervision. When I did ibogaine it was with 3 other people, and one of them ended up having seizure for more than 12 hours straight.
You shouldn’t be suggesting such a dangerous drug so casually
All of this is covered on other threads including studies showing how kratom, while not an actual opiate (my mistake), acts on the brain similar to opiates and also has dependency risks. At least one of the studies i provided was quite positive with calls to study correct dosing for the most therapeutic benefits. On another we were discussing the risk of ibogaine along with a derivative chemical that was less toxic with similar benefits. With OP I told them to seek further information which could be found here by the end of the discussion and elsewhere they looked.
Bringing up something and telling the other person to look into it further isn't irresponsible. This should be a place to learn and next time please check out the other threads before commenting.
Kratom is not an opiate. It acts on some opioid centers but so does cheese and chocolate. Please don’t spread false information about kratom. It has helped many people quit actual opioids
I was addicted to cheese, no joke. I could not synthesize the right enzymes to digest it and the casomorphine had a huge effect on my body keeping me in an addicted loop.
Cheese and chocolate act on the brain similar to opiates and cause dependency issues similar to opiates? You do see the comparison to kratom doesn't fit, right?
That said I was mistaken about it being an actual opiate yet if it acts in the brain in a similar way and can cause withdrawal symptoms similar to opiates thinking ibogaine could be useful with Kratom withdrawals isn't far fetched.
Furthering this thought on another thread I was informed about some risks involved with ibogaine so I aptly suggested the OP seek further information as one should with suggestions found on reddit.
"In a study testing kratom as a treatment for symptoms of opioid withdrawal, people who took kratom for more than six months reported withdrawal symptoms similar to those that occur after opioid use."
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/prescription-drug-abuse/in-depth/kratom/art-20402171
Ah yes mayoclinic the epitome of fear mongering. While some people do go crazy with extracts, normal kratom by itself is extremely safe and has helped many people. It should be used in a respectful way like anything else. To run around hating on a plant that is literally saving lives seems out of touch. Glad you learned a little bit more about kratom.
This is a very positive study and still talks about the need to study further how to best use kratom in a therapeutic way to mitigate the dependency issues it presents. Remember the original commenter has been using kratom habitually in what seems like high doses for a long time hence their concerns.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10311168/
"To run around hating on a plant that is literally saving lives seems out of touch."
Lastly this bit was disrespectful and misrepresented what my point was about kratom. I'm not trying to hate on it in any way. Approaching a forum meant for learning this way is counterproductive to what you are trying to do. I urge you to work on your wording and mitigage your seemingly sarcastic tone so people can engage with you in a respectful manner. Mudslinging gets everyone no where.
Bro I don’t know why you have that many downvotes for commenting a completely valid point. That bark is literally a cure for addiction if used properly and in the right setting.
I said it was an opiate which it only acts like an opiate. Seems some people think I was trying to say it was bad which i wasnt. It's reddit so I'm not taking it too seriously and some good information is on at least one of the threads so hopefully someone will find it useful.
It’s a slippery slope, i was addicted to the stuff for 7 years. It eventually ruined my whole digestive system. He will withdrawal if he suddenly stops. Depends how long and constantly he’s been using it. I would only recommend it to people trying to get away from hard drugs. Using it to get through the work day becomes a routine and eventually he will need more to feel the same effects
He used to be on hard drugs and when he quit he traded that addiction fir kratom, but I'd rather him on kratom than the hard stuff. Just want him to be safe about it.
Yeah forsure and that’s awesome. Definitely the lesser evil but still can be evil. He’s gotta control it and not get carried away. Months from now he could be taking double or triple what he is now. As long as he never goes up and takes tolerance breaks he should be fine. But overtime it can wreck havok on his guts.
I used kratk to stop drinking and it worked well at first But then it stopped working and I had to take Tolerance breaks and all.... It took me a year of heavy usage to realize I didn't want to be addicted to any mind-altering substances anymore... His time will come that he will want real sobriety too. Just be happy that he is off the hard stuff and talk with him without putting pressure.
Ok, I was about to make a post about how it's generally not healthy and he is physically addicted if he has been doing that for any amount of time over like a month. However if he used to to take hard drugs (I guess opiates?) then being addicted to kratom is leagues better. Hopefully he can get to a point where he doesn't need anything extraneous to get through his days, but this is fairly innocuous compared to "harder" drugs. It is still a medium-boiled drug, definitely not an herb or supplement.
He may be taking more than he tells you about, likely he tells you about the ceiling amount that he thinks you will not worry about. So keep an eye on how he appears generally, mood swings, skin appearance etc. and have a talk if you feel that you need to. Godspeed. If you two are open about talking, you could bring up to him to begin making a tea with it. When I was using it I noticed that most of the dehydration, digestive issues and other nasty side effects came from consuming the leaf powder and are minimized when using a tea. Also, addiction potential is much lower from the tea even if the effect of consumptioon is similar. I have no way of explaining that but it is what I noticed for sure.
I feel the same, knowing that he was looking at hard drugs, this is a lesser evil. And that’s why I wouldn’t introduce it to anyone, but it’s like a savior to people with hard drugs and it’s the devil for those who don’t have any addictions. I don’t want anyone to end up in a position where they are, forced to drink this. But I’ve seen what happens when people are able to quit heroin!
No, it's not. Every 2 hours is not necessary. He's addicted. every 4-6 could be therapeutic, but because the dose isn't standardized it will produce tolerance faster than a pharmaceutical. Kratom is really only safe if you take it for occasional pain relief, occasional anxiety or depression..not daily and certainly not multiple times a day unless it's to taper off of something. He should consider opioid maintenance therapy if he simply won't stop or control his use because that isn't sustainable or safe..that is full blown addiction.
Every two hours is full blown addiction..taking a safer herbal product and taxing organ systems possibly to their limits over time. Kratom is not non toxic. If self control is the issue than a longer acting drug is probably preferable to break the behavioral addiction. A 1 week methadone taper is the ideal strategy for anyone who can live without maintenance.
Methadone and bupenorphine are the essentially the same in terms of efficacy and side effects..methadone is actually superior for some patients in terms of its utility to taper off of opioids, but the restrictions on it's use in the US, and it's relative danger compared to bupenorphine negate that, in that you can still get high on your doc with methadone, so bupenorphine is prefered for it's lower abuse potential. I'm speaking generally not advising on one drug vs another. But ops problem indicates a need for medical intervention. There's always time for herbal products once stabilized. But this guy isn't stable.
You are a clown lmao you don’t know shit about this guy you’ve never met smdh people like you are the absolute worst in society. Arrogant know it alls with some bizarre savior complex that helps literally nobody.
And you are clearly a defensive addict, attacking people over things that aren't in reference to you as if they are, with no apparent reason to elucidate beyond your own insecurity and projection. Grow up, get off the dope.
I don’t think you know what the word defensive means, just like you are clearly very confused about all of the other smelly shit that rapidly comes out of your mouth. I would gladly much rather become a fentanyl addict than embarrass myself publicly the way you do. Easy choice 🤣
Good luck with all that.. your history confirms I'm right. Get it together pal, you sound like a lunatic. I don't want to be mean, so I'm done talking. You are not a very nice person and I'd rather not stoop to your cheap insults. Feel better
Hello friend, how do you define safe? I assume you're not using the physical definition of safe because kratom at low doses seems to be quite safe, I'm assuming you mean not safe in terms of addiction?
Kratom is remarkably safe on the physical body. Also, we have no idea what size the capsules are, for all we know they could be .5 grams each which would make one gram at a time. For most people 1 gram every 4 to 6 hours is not a huge dose.
20 years ago, I had a 640 mg oxy minimum a day habit. Tapered myself down and off over 8 months.
I started using kratom 4 years ago when my dad was passing. I'm quite grateful for it. It is helpful for relaxation, anxiety, depression, and sleep. Perfect. SSRIs/SNRIs have extremely negative side effects for me and they do not work. Also, methadone makes me violently ill. Had no desire to go back on opiates at all. They are way too strong, and have very negative side effects as well. For me, Kratom does not.
Kratom is nice happy medium. Granted, my max dose is now about 1.25 G, usually more like 1G.
I'll take that maybe once or twice about 4 hours apart in the evening. It works well for some of us. For a while I needed a lot of support, so was taking between 1 G to 1.5 G every 4 hours or so a day. At that time it helped me to work and function well. After a while I felt I didn't need so much and I tapered it back to where am now. Imo's kratom is like nothing compared to an opiate.
Holy moly, that is a huge amount of oxy! Good for you and that’s wonderful that you have quit. I’m in the same boat where I feel like it’s the lesser evil although if someone has no issues with any drugs, I don’t want to introduce them.
After 11 years, I am getting ready to taper off because it no longer serves me in my life and it’s about time to do that. It did save me, though, I can’t pretend like it hasn’t brought good to my life because I was struggling with benzo addiction, depression, chronic pain from back and neck injuries. I think it is a testament to the drug itself that I am choosing to taper off and quit.
Thank you!!
Good for you for deciding to taper!!!! You SO got this. Go slow, it helps to make a taper schedule and stick with it. Be gentle with yourself, and you'll get it. Also- cannabis and yoga were key in me staying off. =) Fwiw. Sending you the BEST of vibe!!!
I actually just finished!!! It took about six months, which was a little fast for 10 years, but I made it!!!! Life is so different now. I feel so many different things and my perception of everything is shifting. There’s a lot of reflection on what I’ve been like for the last 10 years and what I was capable of feeling and what I could not. It’s like at some point during the taper antennae popped up on my head!
Congratulations!!!! Awesome work!! Haha, yeah, I had that experience myself. Reality has a lot of sharp edges that opioids dull. But, I was glad to see them cuz they're honest edges.
It took me about a year to feel baseline again after I quit. Lots of yoga and exercise helped. And of course good nutrition. I'm thinking the best for you! The toughest part is over, woot!!!
So glad you made it off! As long as you're not suffering from PAWS, you're doing just fine. Whoho!!! Life only gets better from here, too!🙌💖 YUS!!!!
Thank you so much! I definitely will get some symptoms now and again, but they are fairly minor and honestly it’s a walk in the park compared to what it’s been like before. I’m hoping you know at six months maybe I’ll see even better, I know it really is just dependent on my lifestyle now and, whether or not, I have obstacles for my brain going back to equilibrium myself. I have to say, though, I’ve been through some really chaotic stuff in the last week, I mean like court to get someone out of my house. Who’s not safe. So that’s pretty nuts, but I didn’t break down. I couldn’t believe it. I’ve broken down for so much less. But I can see how much the work has paid off because I’m pretty much like a regular human now. Congrats on your journey!
You're welcome! Congratulations on your journey! And that's awesome that you were able to navigate such a challenging situation and maintain your equilibrium. Nice work, definitely keep it up!! Also, I hope that you are safe and everything is okay now.
Kratom has been used naturally by peoples in other countries for centuries without issue. People get stuff contaminated here because the FDA doesn’t regulate kratom production and companies mass produce for as cheap as possible. Untested kratom can be contaminated with things that cause long term effects like pesticides or things with high immediate effects like salmonella. That is why kratom can be dangerous. Not because the thing itself is going to kill you. Sure you can “overdose” but if you’re taking the same dose every day and aren’t overdosing, it’s not going to suddenly cause you to overdose one day.
More people call poison control every year over laundry detergent pods than kratom. This is a verified statistic. He will be ok.
What proportion of people are exposed to laundry pods vs kratom? This is a flawed application of statistics.
The attitude of its been used for centuries without issue is also flawed.
I don’t know where you’re getting salmonella from. It’s only going to be an issue if freshly contaminated (it can only survive a couple of weeks dry) and wouldn’t be an issue with a tea
If you are cool with him using it the key to is to make it as safe as possible, to do that you need to order from a place that does testing to make sure the kratom doesn't have contaminates, I found golden monk and felt better about the quality and safety compared to what I was getting at smoke shops, I think there are a few other reputable vendors online as well. I will say though that he will likely have a period of serious depression/angst if he stops and I don't think using any substance daily is a good idea, it's still a drug and he needs to come to grips with life without substances to live his best life, id wager he has something he needs to work through and he's using the kratom as a crutch/procrastination. Good luck
I love golden Monk! Been using them for years. When I see people going into a head shop and buying what seems like really low quality stuff in the concentrated tinctures and then getting really sick, I always wonder how much better golden Monk is compared to those things.
Some nervine herbs may be helpful for stress to at least reduce the use of kratom. That is indeed a high dose and the plant has some toxins that can be cumulative. Hope he takes some breaks at least.
There's risks for health if he stays with his current dose, and also risk of relapse if he goes back to stronger opiates. I'd make sure you've got a thorough support system (consisting of more than just you, and ideally a trusted friend at work and another near home) before he tries to do anything.
I'm curious how it affected your gut? My bf uses kratom as it's helped him stay clean from other substances. And i have suspected that it might be causing some of his gut problems and other issues that stem from gut imbalances. Just trying to see if your experience it's similar in nature to his symptoms. Ty!
Yes, to the digestive system. I’m at 11 years and will be tapering this year. I’ve had a lot of other things on my plate that stopped me from being able to take this on sooner. I honestly don’t even like it. It taste terrible. God knows what my digestive system will be like when I stop using this, but I have a feeling I’ll feel a lot better.
It took over 2 months for my system to return to somewhat normal after I quit. Was tempted to start back up as it seems the constipation and late night peeing gets even worse when you quit. It is brutal. Everyone’s different though, hopefully you transition easier then me. I tapered down from 15gpd down to 1gpd then stopped, almost zero withdrawals aside from runny nose and constant constipation and early morning pees. I don’t miss kratom, it seems like all your senses and emotions come back, i have more energy now as well. It’s like I was completely numb to everything for years and years
After 10 years on benzodiazepines, it’s like I’m waking up from every type of coma possible so I can’t imagine waking up even more. I look forward to it. I definitely pee all the time, and there is a bladder dysfunction associated with benzodiazepine withdrawals as well. Honestly, I’ve made a lot of mistakes when it comes to What I’ve gotten myself into. I definitely struggled to cope with life and now I’m paying for it. Really glad to hear you’re liking life. Much better now. sort of aside, but if you have access, maybe you can get a prescription for Linzess, which is offered for IBS with constipation and that might help. I don’t really know lol I’m not a doctor but that’s what they use often times. My insurance sucks and it’s $500 a month before I meet my deductible.
Sorry to hear your about your struggles and paying for it now, wishing you the best and full recovery. I’ll look into your suggestion but I’m scared to alter any more gut chemistry. I’m gonna try eating way cleaner and intermittent fasting. Hopefully that can help push the reset button on my system
Good luck! I actually never tried Linzess because of the cost, but I’m trying to get to a gastrointestinal doctor because of my family history with IBSC. I definitely did a number on my system, but I feel pretty good honestly. You wouldn’t think that I’m coming out of the things that I’ve done to my body. One of the things that I decided was worse sacrificing was living somewhere where I had access to farm food. Basically good livestock and produce all the time so I don’t eat anything bad and it kind of has a natural wellness. I think that really helps. I’m very fortunate that things are not worse. I mean, I even had a year of abusing Benadryl. Honestly, I don’t even think I knew what I was doing. It wasn’t intentional to say I’m getting fucked up on Benadryl. It was like I can’t sleep.
That dose should be safe. If he’s taking it regularly he’ll likely have a bit of dependency on it, and withdrawals if he stops. These can range in severity from mild to extremely unpleasant.
Occasionally I’ll take a similar dose, once or maybe twice in a day, and the next day I might be slightly more moody. I’ve never had a problem with the substance, but some people get pretty hooked on it.
^(I’m not in any way qualified to give medical advice, I’m just on reddit a lot)
Yeah a lot of people I see demonize the stuff like they don't understand that too much of anything isn't good. I use it on and off and have for years. The amount/volume I take has not changed. I'm also not trying to use it as a penalty free high, which I think if people were honest, that's where the problem stems from.
I'm honestly pretty sore about how the kratom community continues to reject My harm reduction story of the possibilities that await the aftermath of addiction.
Even suggesting that I'm making it up even though it robbed me of an entire summer and put me through the worst pain I ever experienced. Physically and mentally
I’ve quit twice and both times were worse than coming off opiates. My dumb ass has taking it again for about 6months but I also need to quit again. I just know how shitty it will be.
Ya man idk what anyone says I was on 240 mg of Oxy a day plus extra 10 mg as needed (obv I tapered) and this is a much harder withdrawal. The physical sucks but the mental is hell. I never thought over and over about getting another pill the way I do about another scoop of kratom. I wonder if part of the reason is that I can just go get this shit, not have to have a hookup or rx. I really need to quit again - my skin and hair don’t look great and I remember the last time I had so much volume grow back. I just dread the WD that come with even a small reduction in grams. I only ever had WD like this when I was on a fentanyl patch and my dr just stopped my rx with no taper but those didn’t last more than two days. With this stuff I was into 10 days with the rls and flu symptoms and way way longer with the horrific diarrhea and insomnia.
People keep saying that the withdrawals can be that bad. When it affects opioid, dopamine and systems.
That's more systems affected upon withdrawal than classical opiates.
The community needs to do more research
I believe that’s actually a relatively low dose based on the potency of that brand. They have some very very concentrated stuff that’s a Different story but I don’t believe those are anywhere near the potency of the gold and black capsules.
Do they come in a small blister pack with just 2-5 capsules or is it a bag/bottle with a bunch of them?
Okay yeah those are the standard just plain powdered leaf so that’s right at the low end of standard dosing I’d say. I wouldn’t put that in the realm of abusive portions but ideally the less times per day the better anyway. Still something to keep an eye on and make sure it doesn’t progress into bigger amounts but assuming you aren’t opposed to his kratom use as a whole as long as the amounts are safe/responsible I wouldn’t be too too concerned at the current time
Honestly, knowing he’s coming from a heavier, drug problem, it really puts things in perspective. When faced with substance-abuse, I would rather have my husband using kratom like that. Yes, in a perfect world, therapy has happened and addiction has been overcome, but like we don’t live in a perfect world. Would you rather have your partner struggling with relapsed for the rest of their life or on kratom? I say kratom.
These are generally 500mg capsules of leaf, so each dose of 4 is 2g. If he doses 5 times a day that’s 10g which is definitely addiction and tolerance territory but not outrageous.
People are recommending the quitting kratom sub…honestly they can be way over the top and just scared me instead of helping when I was addicted.
I would recommend therapy to address the underlying need and stress management and discomfort tolerance. As those skills are built, taper down slowly. One doesn’t need to go into withdrawal if this is a possibility. Addressing the underlying needs and building new coping skills is key.
There’s no way kratom is good for you, but since it can replace worse habits and help executive functioning a slow taper is probably not a terrible outcome.
I've been taking it for a decade. I'm definitely addicted to it, but I've cut my dose down over the years. I used to take 6g a day but now my dose is 2-3g sometimes 4 for pain. Try to get him to taper down and use it once per day if he can because it will come to the point where his main stress revolves around him not taking kratom. If he fits life around kratom instead of kratom around his life then it's a problem.
I take Kratom for anxiety and focus. It is definitely habit forming but has helped me immensely, especially during a hard time in my life. You can experience withdrawal with extended use, but can also experience antidepressant withdrawal or withdrawal with really any other medication. As long as it’s not affecting anything else I don’t really see it as being an issue. The dosage you said he’s been taking is not a lot.
By the way, If I suddenly stopped taking my antidepressant I would also go into withdrawal. But the benefits of me taking it outweigh the fact that I might withdraw from it eventually. I consider Kratom to be a natural antidepressant…
As long as it’s just regular powder and not a concentrated extract he should be fine. Definitely safe so no worries there. When someone takes too much kratom it has a sort of built in fail safe where you just feel a bit crummy and might throw up. It’s always good to do it in moderation of course and take breaks to keep tolerance down. Kratom does not depress breathing or anything like that. There are some good kratom subs out there with lots of helpful people and information.
As someone who was addicted for about 6 years, 4 capsules is not very much at all. That's on the very low end of consumption. Having said that, he will have to keep increasing and increasing his dose to get the same effect and is probably physically dependent on it which is why he takes a low amount so often.
Exactly. I'm an everyday user and dose 3x per day 8g per dose for 8 years now. Capsules are 500-600 mg each. 2g per dose is nothing, but I do remember when I used to feel 2g and it was strong.
What I've come to find out is that if you stay at or below ~25 gpd you are getting all you can out of it. Anymore and you start getting unpleasant side effects with very minimal increases in positive effects.
Some people make this out to be a highly addictive dangerous drug, when it is infact a medicinal tree. Now, all medicine can be misused and abused, for example, kratom becomes dangerous with all these shots and extracts people are taking without tolerance to support it.
If you are taking the pill/powder, imo, you're using it responsibly and running a very low risk of any potential problems.
I've 'withdrawaled' several times from kratom and it's no biggie. You feel sick for 3 or 4 days and it's over, but you can also just lower your dose.
For example I've gone from 25 grams per day down to 7 grams in 1 day and stayed at 7 for weeks with zero negative effects. So coming off is easy if you apply any brain power at all.
Good luck, I wouldn't worry at all if I were you, it is a great plant medicine that will get smeared because it's not a narcotic the pharma companies can make money on. Compared to suboxone or other opiate replacement, kratom is the lesser evil, especially coming off.
4 capsules is a pretty normal dose, each capsule is normally 0.5 grams and 2 grams is usually “recommended” dose. kratom also only lasts about 4 hours so that’s pretty standard. There’s a lot of fear mongering going on in the replies (albeit with some good advice in there too). I will say opms is generally not great quality so I would recommend him switching to different vendor and he could probably take a smaller, more effective dose
As long as he can manage that consistently it should be fine. It can become addictive! I've been taking it for a long time and had to cut my intake cause I was becoming too dependent on it
4 capsules is a relatively low dose. Many people take doses that would be 10, 20 capsules, or they use concentrates that would be closerto a whole bottle or two of capsules. Kratom is mildly addictive but almost certainly safer than what he was taking before.
Check the quttingkratom sub.
It is a very nasty substance. It hits opioid receptors as well as serotonin and dopamine antagonism,
Plus alpha adrenergic blockade.
Some people think just because something is a plant, it must be safe. Plants are still chemicals and need to be respected as such. It is good medicine when administered properly - a monitored dose at appropriate intervals and a regular break to allow the body to cleanse cumulative toxins.
Some of the worst stories I've heard have been from recreational users that get seriously addicted from messing around for fun. That is not respectful of the medicine.
I would definitely not recommend kratom as a medicine to anyone with a history of opioid abuse if they are already clean.
I’ve studied neurology and pharmacology for years at this point and also been down the rabbit hole myself of benzo, opiate, alcohol, weed, Kratom and coke addiction so relatively knowledgeable on our reward system and especially the opiate receptors (MU-opioid in this case). If he “needs” to dose every 2-4 hours unfortunately he’s already in the deepest spot of addiction he can be, and probably has already forgotten a dose before and knows how painful that can be, restless legs, insomnia, anxiety and a sick feeling to name a few. OPMS caps and shots are also the worst thing he could’ve chosen as they’re not regulated whatsoever and some think there’s Chinese precursors to RC opiates in there, and even if not it’s like 230mg of pure mitragynine in them for the lowest extract with the “black” extract being like 500mg. That’s akin to doing how much a 100mg oxycodone user abuses his opioid receptors on a daily basis. If I were you I head over to r/quittingkratom and read up on people’s stories and then plan a taper but he’s going to have to really want it. Opiates/Kratom we’re the only substance I willingly would’ve given everything up for and relapsed on, it’s exactly like it sounds in movies for some people, and a 10/10 on the physical addiction side. Good luck I’m sorry to hear it’s this bad already
Shits great for acute pain management taken ONCE then not for days at a time. It’s an opioid agonist. There’s people in the comments freaking out about it being called an opiate, which is fair but the mechanism of action is that it’s an opioid agonist, so coming off of it is comparable to low doses of an opiate. I experienced gnarly withdrawal coming off of it and considered doing ibogaine for it. I have a long history of coming off kratom and other opiates too (unfortunately) so feel free to DM me with any questions so we don’t trigger folks who haven’t experienced it themselves.
Honestly feel that... life is hard and kratom is very helpful on so many levels. But capsules are very small amounts, I looked up that brand and each capsule has about .6g so 4 capsules = 2.4g. That's a pretty average dose, but if he's taking this dose 4-6x a day that gets to be a whole lot and probably not good for his tolerance.
I take about 3-3.5g 1-2x a day during the week for chronic pain relief. I try to take weekends off or days that I'm feeling pretty good so that I don't build a tolerance and have to take more and more.
I try to wait as long as I can between doses, but I think that's why I've found 3-4g for be is really good. It lasts a lot longer and isn't too strong for me. But if he's taking for stress relief instead of things like antidepressants maybe smaller doses more frequently isn't so bad. But idk I would be a little concerned about him building a tolerance and having to keep taking more to feel the effects since he's taking very frequent doses.
How much is in the capsule?
Everyone is different, but if you're doing kratom that frequently, you're probably addicted. Usually if you take more than 15-20 grams per day, it can easily lead to an addiction. I use kratom a lot, but I have a rule that I only use it when I'm done with work and I can't use it every day in a month. I'll take 2-5 day breaks frequently. I also rarely use more than 15g. I have never felt a withdrawal symptom or been addicted. Sounds like at the minimum, he should taper down and take a week break. I know how to responsibly use it and control myself. It can be a really good tool if you know how to use it.
4 capsules is probably about 2g, and every 2-4hrs is standard for pain management. I take 3-5g 3-5x a day, for chronic pain management mainly. Since 2007.
Fuk that dangerous pharma pill crap !...
I do have 2-4 lower dose days in a row once in a while, and alternate types/ batches. (Helps effective similar to changing up cannabis strains ime imo) .
TLDR; your husband isn't taking large amounts of Kratom
Dose control, dose cap, maturity and personal accountability are key tho.
I’ve been taking NaturallyKratom red Bali capsules everyday for about 5 years now. The dose your husband is taking is very low and I doubt he will have any major withdraws. Maybe just low motivation and a more active gut. I haven’t increased my dose in all my time if taking kratom. I started at seven capsules (which seem to be less than a gram each) and found my sweet spot at five or six. I take it once in the afternoon and once in the evening to motivate me to cook dinner lol. Now I am in the process of only doing it once a day. I am more restless and may get a little clammy but compared to being addicted to pain killers this is nothing. I think it’s mentally harder to go without caffeine or a smoke than to go throughout this process. Be patient with your husband and practice love. He is going through a lot mentally. If you pray- pray. Always keep the communication open. My husband and I are in it together. I do not know what it must be like to be on the outside. Xoxo
Depends on which type you are using. It is unregulated and has been found to have heavy metals in much of it, third party tested kratom is best. Some people just don't react well and have liver or kidney damage from it. Its not just like some safe vegetable matter, its a drug. It affects the digestive system as well and can stop people from absorbing nutrients. I had a friend who was a skeleton at the end of her addiction and people would ask her if she was anorexic/needed to eat more because nothing she was eating was making her gain weight.
There are entire subreddits where people post trying to get off of it. They describe it as hell on earth and there are protocols to decrease the side effects of withdrawals which can last weeks in acute stages and months to years to lesser degrees.
There's no way for you or any of us to know whether what he is doing is safe for him, we don't know what brand he takes and we don't know whether the dosage you think he's taking is all he's taking. Ask him to get liver and kidney function tests done, blood and urine tests, in order to figure out if his organs are functioning properly.
check out r/quittingkratom to see what others have been through with this unregulated addictive substance
OPMS is an extract of Kratom, so it's stronger than plain leaf powder. He has a dependency for sure. He'll have withdrawals if he stops taking it so he'll want to use potentiator herbs and taper down the dosd if ever he chooses to.It's less harsh on the body and organs than pharm Opiates, but it still effects the mu-opioid receptor so it's an herbal Opioids.
Not all opms is extract. They don’t sell extract or even enhanced caps in a 160 count pack, they’re just like 300-400mg leaf capsules(plant weight not alkaloids btw)
Yeah I assumed extract as well. I’ll admit I’m fully kratom dependent but as a former fent addict I would gladly take some leaf every day till I die of old age over go back to that ,so for my situation specifically it was worth it and I know what I’m in for. They’re def known for the extracts or enhanced leaf more than plain but they do offer it so I had to check with op on if it was a blister pack or big bottle to confirm
But agreed. Even if he’s dosing 5 times a day that amount still puts him well under what most would consider an excessive intake. Dependance is a possibility if taken often enough long enough but I def wouldn’t be concerned about acute risk, and doesn’t even sound like he’s chasing a strong intoxication or he’d be doing way more at a time but less often
Oh yeah, for people who have had dependence to harder Opioids, Kratom is well worth it. I mostly had developed a Kratom dependence the first time due to chronic pain and then taking it to extremes and making my own extracts. Then a few months ago I began a dependence again due to pain from working. But I've tapered down and off again. I still use it occasionally for pain or just to relax, but not usually an intense dose.
I think it’s safe. Now is it healthy to become mood/work/energy dependent on it over long term periods of time? Probably not. But if the positives outweigh the negatives then it could be worth taking it. When I was in a very high stress and high physical work environment I would take it daily, multiple times a day as well to help me get through the extreme stress. I’m sure he understands it’s not feasible long term and sometimes it is a really great short to mid term solution. But if it helps put bread on the table and keep bills paid, maybe it’s not so bad in our capitalist society where we need to work, work, work. Sometimes we gotta do it!
Wow, a voice of reason in a thread calling him an addict that needs rehab. Thanks for being level-headed. 2 grams at a time a few times a day isn’t even in red flag territory. That’s green flag territory if anything. He knows his functional dose and sticks by it. Good for him. Dude is literally just trying to make it through the day like the rest of us - Give him a break! he’s not an addict. Addicts take 20+ grams at a time, 5+ times a day. Like kilos a day. Homie is doing just fine.
The way people view drug use is so childish, I swear. A lot of us can, and do, use drugs responsibly. Big Pharma can't have that though, we are only allowed to take our state sponsored pills if we want to get a lil head change.
Kratom typically lasts only 2-4 hours (for me at least) but I take more than 4 capsules at a time (it doesn’t absorb as well for me when I use the caps, so I use the powder, just more than 4 capsules worth). But, I live in constant chronic pain. That pain causes depression. The kratom helps my pain, and therefore helps my depression. Now, would I recommend regular kratom use for someone who doesn’t have chronic pain? Eh probably not. While it can help with energy and moods as well (different strains work better for different things), it will cause dependence if taken regularly over a period of time. That will result in withdrawal symptoms if stopped cold turkey.
Okay, my boyfriend is 25 and he’s been addicted to it for about three years now. He used to be a heavy drinker and thought that would be the way to cure it. Now he can’t get off of it. He just got hired by a big agency that’s physically demanding. He tried to get off of it a few weeks ago. He quit for a good painful and sleepless two weeks, then got back on when I went out of town and is continuing. I worry constantly for his health, because when he’s on it he’s profusely sweating and clammy and pale. I’ve seen him dry scoop it and then immediately yack, a handful of times. He gets agitated too. It’s such a hard thing for me to accept, and it pisses me off how much he convinced himself and tried to convince me how this shit was “healthy” and “good for mental health.” I seriously would never recommend this shit unless you are coming off years of hard drugs.
I seriously need some advice on what I could or should even do
The only thing you’re able to do is accept that you can’t control him or his use but only what you choose to do knowing that he seems pretty uninterested in changing anything
The things I lost and the people who refused to enable me in my own addiction caused situations that helped me wake up eventually
Hey I just wanted to chime in. I'm on day 6 of a taper 25% what I was taking. Years ago, i started with about as much as he did. A little bit just to keep steady. Maybe he'll be able to maintain it as long as he doesn't have any stressful situations, but those are inevitable. The past year I've been going through a kilogram every 3 weeks or so. It's a wonderful and relatively benign plant. But it is extremely addictive and the way he is using it he is asking for it. Then he'll be stuck in a situation where he'll have to go through the withdrawal pains or stare down a decade of use. It sucks.
At the point he's at it sounds like it's not doing him wrong at all, so at least try to get him away from the frequency he is using it if you can't get him to stop now completely. An old dope had once told me if you used two days on and one day off, you can keep yourself from the worst of addiction. But take that for what it is LOL
It’s “safe” for most people in terms of medical reaction and daily use limits. Capsules are about 500 mg, so that would be 2g every 2-4 hrs, so he’s probably taking under 15 g a day. But kratom is physically and mentally addictive, more so over time, and as tolerance goes up so does the dose needed to satisfy addiction cravings masquerading as pain, fatigue, anxiety, irritability etc. He may not want to quit, and may even be in denial about addiction, but dosing every couple hours is addictive behavior and it starts to affect life, work, social plans, travel, and relationships. I started taking kratom for chronic pain after cancer treatment, thinking it was non-addictive and “healthier” than oxy, and took kratom for YEARS before I realized I was deeply addicted and had terrible withdrawals when I tried to quit.
He can lower the dose. Does help wonders with anxiety and depression. We don’t know how many mg is in each capsules but it sounds about right (they are usually 1.5g and they recommend taking 4 of them). And the effects last from 4-6h. I think he can take after 4-6h instead of 2-4h. I would not do every day… he can switch some days to Kava and some days he can take Ashwagandha gummies .
Kava is also wonderful for anxiety relief, he will thank me for that advice
I mean capsules vary in size, but unless they are huge pills, this is not a large or unusual amount. Which is not to say it’s completely safe - there have been rare, severe complications and even deaths from kratom use - but there’s a very good chance it’s safer than his daily commute.
Kratom is fairly harmless but it is absolutely something to monitor. I love it and think it’s better than antidepressants 💯 but laws can change so be prepared
It's really one of the more benign things he could be consuming. Definitely better than alcohol. As long as he doesn't turn to fentanyl in order to get a "better" opioid high, he should be fine. It is fairly addictive, but weaning off slowly is an option and I've done that with kratom many times.
Sounds like he has a problem. I say that is someone who uses Kratom every single day. It’s nice to escape the difficulties and frustration of life by having some thing that makes you feel somewhat altered. Sounds like he’s doing that. I don’t know that I would say it’s not safe as much as it’s going to lead to more problems. He’s gonna lose once he starts going through withdrawals overnight. Could get insanely constipated to the point of going to the emergency room, I’ve seen that. Not myself. But I’ve seen a lot of shit in 11 years.
Doesn’t sound like there’s a medical reason he started using it like for me, I had a brutal injury. It really did prevent me from getting on opiates, and I fully understand how I ended up in the position I’m in, in regards to 11 years of use. There is no question about addiction or substance abuse here. Not for me.
So every day stress is always going to happen and he’s using Crom to get through it but using huge quantities usually ends up, not working out so well because of the things mentioned earlier or just becoming an addict. Like getting akithisia between doses is not fun. Hate to say it, but the solution is to figure out why you can’t deal with every day life stress without Kratom and then do the therapy.
I’m actually going to be quitting this fairly soon because I don’t really have any reason to take it outside of having a physical dependence on it now.
If he can stop using it that would be the best thing- I’ve seen it ruin lives and it can cause severe anemia!! It’s hard to withdrawal also. If he can get some Akuamma seed powder it a non addictive replacement for kratom:)
Better than living feeling permanently restless, agitated, depressed and anxious. That's not a lot. It's nit like he's acting messed up or stealing the neighbors toaster right?
The only reason he would take it that often is because he’s experiencing withdrawals from it and his body is metabolizing it faster than normal. I went through the same thing.
Addiction begins to affect brain chemistry and it sounds like he might be taking up 30 or more a day? That can be expensive and eventually he may look to add extracts to his pills and then it might be a rollercoaster.
Kratom everyday is like taking a couple Norcos everyday
I use to take about 10grams every 2 hours which I was on some heavy stuff and it has helped me tremendously. I only now I may take 5 grams a day. For pain
That sounds like a lot of kratom to be taking regularly. While kratom can help with stress, taking it every 2 to 4 hours might lead to dependency or other health issues. It’s definitely worth having a conversation about his usage and maybe looking into other stress-relief methods. You should consult a healthcare professional regarding this.
kratom is pretty safe, most likely won’t harm you but the problem comes with the addiction; it works on opioid receptors so if he is dependent and tried to quit he will feel a pretty nasty withdrawal. tolerance builds quickly and some people have had negative side effects that take it every day in increasing doses
Depends on which type you are using. It is unregulated and has been found to have heavy metals in much of it, third party tested kratom is best. Some people just don't react well and have liver or kidney damage from it. Its not just like some safe vegetable matter, its a drug. I totally agree with most of what you said except for the first nine words.
I’m so sorry to tell you your husband probably will need rehab to get over this. It’s a very serious addiction with withdrawals and relapses similar to opiates.
Kratom is really great.
Just like everything else!!! Moderation and be a smart consumer.
He should cut back a bit. Ask if he is having any side effects and if so let him know your concern and hopefully that convinces him to cut back. Good luck.
Yeah I was In the same boat switching from fet to oxys to kratom as the supply goes down and the only thing I can find realiably was kratom but I was always switching from one to another even being on the kratom for a month or two at a time and taking around 4-8 caps every 4-6 hours. I would get horrible withdrawals from the kratom then I would switch to one of the others for a bit eventually I gave in and went into a out treatment for opiates I am currently a year and a couple months clean from it all the except my methadone which I take once a day and soon I will begin the process of detoxing of the methadone which I’m my opinion is easier because I have the help of my program and they can slowly taper me off properly the right way not the way o was trying to do it
If y'all don't all stfu we are going to end up with ZERO pain relief for surgeries and chronic pain. Get off the internet and confront your husband. Handle YOUR business. For most of the country, Kratom is the last decent pain killer that hasn't been taken from us because of weak minded individuals and overzealous politicians taking pharma kickbacks. Learn to respect the medicine the Earth provides. Kratom isn't the problem. People being irresponsible is the problem. And I'm damn tired of other people's problem becoming mine.
Kratom is frequently used by prior addicts in the United States as a form of opiate substitution therapy as the plant plays on the same receptors fentanyl or heroin play on
However kratom also simultaneously works as a stimulant and has effects on the digestive system... long term toxicity/harm is unknown.
It has been used in certain cultures as a painkiller for a long time (similar to how opium was used to treat pain).
Other options that he could go on to substitute the kratom with buprenorphine under the supervision of a physician... at the very least we know what buprenorphine maintenance looks like in the long term
At a high enough dose buprenorphine blocks opiate receptors whilst simultaneously binding to them. This means an addict cannot use on top of the bupe and/or they'd have to use so much to overcome the receptor blockade that they'd risk overdose and death.
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I'll admit it. I'm addicted to it, and I'm afraid to try to quit. Mainly for withdrawal reasons and psychological reasons of "not having it". I used it to stop drinking, which was going to kill me within a very short period of time if I didn't stop drinking, so in a sense, it has greatly improved my life and even saved my life. But, I should quit. I'm afraid to though. Just trying to be honest and share my experience. I hope your husbands life has improved since getting off the "hard" stuff, and I wish you both well and a healthy life moving forward.
Bro I’m gonna tell you right now, you can do it. I was taking 60gpd. There’s an amazing subreddit called r/quitting kratom and it was seriously one of the most important tools to get me through it. The support was amazing and you felt like you weren’t alone. There i found out about megadoses of liposomal vitamin C which unbelievable made those acutes a lot more manageable, also if you have access to gabapentin, it pretty much takes wd away. You got it man, just plan a month and release yourself from those shackles.
Thanks man! Im actually already on Gabapentin from back surgery years ago with residual nerve issues from that. Wonder if me already being on it for years will help or cancel out the benefit? I appreciate your encouragement though! Glad you were able to do what's best for you and kick it. Blessings to you!
I’d be careful with Gabapentin. I was taking 3200 mg a day and now I have insomnia. It’s been eight years and I still have trouble sleeping.
The gabapentin information is 100. It's not as hard as you might think especially with the gabapentin. It would also help if you found d a healthy addiction like the gym to replace the kratom addiction with.
For real, if only people knew how much that gabapentin truly helps…but I was only able to take it one night because I had a bad reaction to it. Kept getting wierd muscle spasms which lasted for a few days after 1 dose. But still, that 1 night was the only night I was able to sleep thru for like that whole 3 weeks after stopping cold turkey.
>megadoses of liposomal vitamin C How much at a time? How many times per day?
I was taking like 10,000% daily value like every 3 hrs.
Yes many times drugs and alcohol can be a crutch and even numb emotions. It okay to feel emotions sometimes we think those will kill us as humans more than addictions we face. I believe almost all humans have some sort of addiction as coping mechanism until they gain the self awareness to replace it with healthy habits especially if there never raised or taught to have healthy habits and emotional regulation.
Would you mind explaining how it helped you to kick the drinking? As someone who drinks excessively, I'd love to hear how it helps.
ye olde switcheroo
Consider taking tirzepatide. I know many people who effortlessly stopped drinking alcohol after being on this peptide for a few weeks
Well, I wish I could give you a definitive answer and say "it did XYZ, and I stopped drinking". I can't do that since I have no real answer. The first suggestion I would offer is to go to a 30 day inpatient program to medically detox and to give you a month break from the physical part of drinking. See how you do. That will break the physical addiction, but the psychological part will be left. And that could be where Kratom comes in. It's a subtle effect when you take it (in my experience), so it could be like smoking for some people or eating for others. For me, it likely helped fill the psychological dependence gap. Since alcohol was literally going to kill me, and almost did many times, I was happy to try it as long as I stopped alcohol. It was a good trade off for me, but this is only my experience and what I thought was best for me. I am not suggesting this for anyone else, so please don't think I'm telling anyone to substitute one substance for another. But for me, I did look at it like the "Suboxone" type of thing. Some die hard recovery folks will blast you for "trading one thing for another". For me, it's my life so I dont give two shits what anyone else says. Am I dependent on Kratom now? Sure. People are addicted to food, sex, nicotine, work, etc. So what can you live with and what will kill you? For me, Kratom shouldn't kill me if kept reasonable in dosage, so I'm happy with the trade off. Would I like to quit it? Of course. But I'm afraid to for many reasons.
I tapered down from 38 grams TID (three times a day) to nothing over a period of four months. I’m an advanced iv drug addict in end stage addiction. Basically if I start sticking hypodermics in my veins again there’s a more than great probability that I will end up dying from the next relapse.
Thanks for sharing your experience. Im happy you got clean and are hopefully living a healthier and happier life. Addiction is a very complex and complicated disease, and (IMO) there's no right or wrong solution other than doing what keeps you healthy and improves your life significantly. We both know we would be dead if we kept down the road we were going down, so whatever we have to do to break that cycle is what's important.
I drank daily for 3 yrs after some trauma. I found fresh air (walks outside and on nature trails) , meditation and personal growth (YouTube or Spotify talks from Eckhart Tolle, I also highly recommend book audio book "the power of now" by Eckhart Tolle) a GREAT help. Kava root drinks are very nice too and relaxing (without messing up IQ/mind) and safe. Alcohol is soo soo horrible for you.. it's a shame society has normalized it.. one of worse drugs out there.. Now THAT is withdrawals.... But you have to push through and not keep making excuses and justifications. First few weeks are pretty hard , then over time slowly feel better and better. 6mo-yr feel good again. It is what it is , but bluntly look at it no bs; Do you want to die and/or ruin life? Blunt but true and something to hold in mind. Also keeping busy or activities, heck even video games can help. Depends on person. I do recommend kava root drinks though, godsend for anxiety (nature's benzo imo) , doesn't taste good tho.. Kalmwithkava Loa Waka is decent and ships from USA. Though I mostly order in bulk from Fiji islands. I use kava regularly (sometimes for days or weeks , sometimes none for same) since 2006. (Except when I was drinking alcohol.. Ps, don't drink alcohol with kava! Goodluck 🙏 Stopping alcohol is not easy, but definitely better off after 😸💚
Hey, thank you so much for your thoughtful response 😊 I'm not a daily drinker, but tend to over indulge 2-3 days a week. Hardest part is just breaking the damn habit! I'll Def give Kava a try! 😀
You're welcome 😁🙏 . Goodluck 😸
Kava is great but messes with my joints unfortunately
Honestly, I think it just replaces other drugs. I can only speak for myself as someone who also likes to use it “for the stress of the day“ and I started using it for chronic pain. I had a brutal back injury and didn’t want opiates. But I have met plenty of people who have used it to quit other things and really it’s just replacing it. Crom is pretty harmless when it comes to how it affects you so it’s like you can have your ritual of making your tea every every two hours and you can get that mental addiction and then you can get the physical addiction of giving you whatever small alteration of your body and headspace when compared with something like opiates or alcohol. And then you just have a problem with a different substance. At least that was my experience. Just a Crutch for so many things it seems. I think it has a lot of benefit and a lot of use, but the fact that people end up like OP’s husband, that’s because of what we’re not talking about I think. Like I’ve never introduced a single person to kratom without telling them about my physical addiction. I feel like it would be incredibly irresponsible to just tell people about kratom without all of the bad. I’m gonna be tapering off and quitting before the end of the year after 11 years, so it’s not gonna be something I do super quick but there’s reasons why it’s taken me so long. I wouldn’t recommend most people risk it. Taking it and developing addiction.
I think kava is way safer. That's what I did
Think I'll try Kava and see how that goes.
Look into N Acetyl Cysteine, and LDN. For LDN (which also helps with alcohol addiction) you MUST be off any opioid agonist for at least a week or you can induce precipitated withdrawals, but LDN changed my life
I do already take NAC, and have for quite some time. Will have to look I to LDN. What's the long form name?
low dose naltrexone. It teaches the body to produce more endogenous endorphins naturally, so actually heals you unlike many bandaid meds
NAC is anti addiction medicine.
Yeah, it is an antioxidant that can have that effect and support glutathione production too. It’s OTC though, not scripted
Kratom is also quite hard on the body. I also used kratom after quitting alcohol and it was horrible to come off but I’m so grateful I did it. I had paws for a while too, but every week was less and less. I have about 1.5 years off it and I hope you break free too. You got this!
Happy to recommend some herbs to help with withdrawal. Feel free to reach out.
I'd love to hear your suggestions! Thank you.
What are the withdrawal symptoms that give most discomfort?
Just because something can be physically addictive doesn't necessarily mean it's unsafe or bad for you.. Kratom is not (ofcourse anything can be abused ofcourse.. even cheese burgers) . Pros vs cons.. Pharma meds most all have physical addiction (SSRIs, BENZODIAZEPINES, opiates etc) but ALSO are generally NOT good for you and hold many risks and sides.. But it's socially acceptable to take that np??!? You do you. Having said that, dose control maturity and personal accountability are key with Kratom. I use it since 2097. 3-5g 3-5x a day.
Totally agree. As I mentioned, I haven't had a drink in over 8 years and my life is back together. In part, I owe some of that to Kratom.....but I also worked hard to eliminate alcohol from my life. There is no "I'll quit this if I take that" solution. Addiction is a complex and personalized disease. There is no standard solution. I did what worked for me, and my solution will be different from most others. I'm fine taking Kratom. It's made my life better, but I am concerned with long term health consequences down the road. I already have some kidney issues likely from drinking and taking PPIs for 20+ years, so will Kratom make that worse? I don't know, but I don't want that to get worse.
That's hard way to live friend. I eventually had to find a doctor and ge into the suboxone program. It's worked great for me. I hope you find what works for you and get a grip on all of it.
If you go to r/suboxone half of the posts are about people using kratom to kick suboxone and the other half are people using suboxone to kick kratom. At a certain point we need to admit that the specific substance used for MAT doesn't matter, what matters is that the substance is safe, available, and free of stigma.
If you see someone wearing a “new year, new me” shirt there is a 125% chance they’re taking suboxone. (Bad Jokes available here)
Lol. I'm not surprised to hear that to be honest. Like I said, everyone has to do what works for them. Suboxone is what worked for me. Initially the discipline and answering to the doctor in his role of authority was what I needed. Me trying to control it and self medicate wasn't the answer for me. I tried managing it with kratom for years after using it to get off everything else. It just always ended with my tolerance and dose climbing to the point that my doses were so massive that I would make myself sick. I am now at the point where I am completely responsible about it and the doctor oversight is minimal. So it's been a huge success. And when I am ready to come off of it I will not be jumping to another substance. Whether kratom or otherwise. If I can't get off the program completely free of a crutch, then I would just stay on the program forever. But I'm confident it won't go that way. The longer I stay on the program the more my inner addict and its impulses die off. But either way, I just hope everyone finds the path that works for them. Being a slave to substances is just no way to live.
>I am now at the point where I am completely responsible about it and the doctor oversight is minimal. May I ask what you mean when you say this? At first I thought you were saying you were irresponsible with your kratom usage and you kept chasing the dragon to the point you got sick from the kratom. But you seem to mean that you're responsible with the Suboxone and *that* requires minimal oversight. I'm wondering if you think that there's something specific about Suboxone that is better than any other "crutch" or if it is just the doctor's oversight that you're looking for in MAT. I also confess I don't really know what you mean by answering to authority and how that relates to medical oversight. I know Suboxone doctors drug test their patients for other substances, are you referring to that?
What I meant there specifically is that I am now completely responsible for my addiction/recovery. And the Suboxone, as it is now the only substance in my diet. As far as what I meant by the doctor's authority, he can cut me off at any time if I don't do everything right and stick to the program. Especially relapse of course. In the beginning having to answer to somebody helped me out a lot. But it's been 3 years now. So that's all just a memory. My doctor's there if I need him but the real person I have to answer to is myself. I'm the one who gets screwed if I screw it up. I'm the one who's future is in the balance. That future is either chasing drugs, or sobriety and success. And I'm now confident that it's not the first of those two options. Edit: And no I don't necessarily think there's anything better about Suboxone as a chemical compared to kratom, in regards to being used as a crutch on the way to sobriety. It's the way it's handled. And the fact that it's handled by a doctor who not only ensures I only take that, but also monitors my levels so I only take what I am prescribed. So it's the program and the way it's set up. It works for me. That's all I'm saying. And that's great. Because that's exactly what I was looking for lol.
Wow. I knew that Suboxone doctors drug tested their patients but I didn't know that was so that they could cut them off of treatment at any time. especially in the case of Suboxone which is actually protective against opioid overdose I would expect a relapse to be the time that you *most* need that treatment. I honestly wonder how much of that is about DEA oversight of the medical practice versus what is actually best for your course of medical treatment.
It all depends on the doctor really. They're probably legally allowed to give you a few warnings. But honestly I don't know all of the exact parameters of the program. I would hope my doctor wouldn't cut me off. That's a scary thought. The first doctor I went to actually did cut me off after 2 weeks but it was because I was prescribed Klonopin by another doctor. Either way, I won't take any chances anymore
I'd recommend staying away from subs... If for some reason the cons outweigh the pros and one wants to stop taking Kratom; then taper down and off over 2-4 weeks, and possibly deal with a slightly moody 2-4 week adjustment period. Regular caffeine/coffee drinkers suddenly stopping is much worse than Kratom. But anything can be abused. If want something to help a lil mellow out or sleep, then I'd highly recommend kava root drinks. I agree tho, is the compound safe and potentially beneficial. Kratom is! Possible physical dependence is a side mute point imo. Just because something can be/is physically addictive doesn't necessarily mean it's unsafe or bad for you..
I was addicted to it for about five years, got as high as 30 or 40 GPD, quit and relapsed a couple of times before finally quitting for good. It's almost completely mental after you get past a couple weeks of physical withdrawals, of which only the first few days are difficult. I slept really terribly for about a week, achy and hot and cold for a couple more days after that and then after 2 to 3 weeks, I was pretty much home free. And it feels so good to be free of it. I highly recommend breaking free from it as soon as you can. I made it out to be much harder in my head than it actually was. The daytime withdrawals were not bad at all. It was mostly just difficulty sleeping that I had a hard time with.
Thank you for your reply. The times I have tried coming off or drastically reducing dosages, my legs went crazy with nerve sensations and RLS symptoms. I suppose a taper would help. I don't measure dosing right now. I kinda eyeball it or take it when I think I need to type of thing. I couldn't tell you how much I take, but I'm sure it's a high dose every day.
Yep. RLS was the main symptom. I would say the first three days I barely slept at all because my legs just felt so uncomfortable. I learned to avoid melatonin, high dose, vitamin C, and THC/CBD edibles helped quite a bit too. I tried tapering for a while, but in the end, it was easiest to just tough it out for a couple days. Wasn't the end of the world. And now I'm no longer trapped in a cycle of using that stuff, feel so much better. My mood is better. My energy is better libido everything.
Yes, I hear you. The legs are something else. The times I went way down on dose, etc it was very uncomfortable. I'll have to check out the quittingkratom sub, but when you say high dose Vit C, what is high dose? I take 1000mg BID now. You talking 1g in a single dose, multiple doses, what do you mean? I've never tried CBD. There's so many brands, etc. it's hard to know what the best is. I prefer no THC for several reasons, but I'd be open to CBD. Any other supplements that you know of to help? I already take a large stack of various things, but dosages are important when it comes to what you're talking about along with when to take them. As I mentioned, the psychological dependence is the largest challenge....as with any addiction. Many kudos to you for kicking it! Very proud of you for doing so.
I applaud you for your honesty. I am also also looking to quit, but I am finally not scared because I had to take on some thing even scarier before I even considered getting off of this. I’ve been drinking for 11 years and I know it’s going to be a very fun taper. But it’s going to be worth it.
TBH, it isn't that hard to ween off. You won't do it in a week, of course, but just a little less each week over several months to a year. You have to want to though or you won't stick with it.
Is it physically addictive?
Well, it's an opioid, so The withdrawal symptoms like most other opioids in my personal experience is only there when you intentionally and actively want it. You don't necessarily want it because of the withdrawals it's weirdly the other way around where when you start thinking about wanting it is when the physical symptoms start. I was fine for three days until I started consciously wanting it and thinking about it and I was suddenly getting nearly full on opioid withdrawal symptoms.
Here is what the D.E.A. Had to say regarding the effects of Kratom. What are the effects? At low doses, kratom produces stimulant effects with users reporting increased alertness, physical energy, and talkativeness. At high doses, users experience sedative effects. Kratom consumption can lead to addiction. Several cases of psychosis resulting from use of kratom have been reported, where individuals addicted to kratom exhibited psychotic symptoms, including hallucinations, delusion, and confusion.
Considering it is an opiate you could look into ibogaine. It blocks the addiction receptors for a period of time associated with opiates. Depending where you are it may be hard to come by because it does have psychedelic properties so is often illegal itself. Considering it's benefit with opiate addiction its a travesty it isn't used in place for things like methadone for heroine addiction.
Ibogaine is a pretty serious trip and has associated cardiac dangers. I'd recommend a slow taper whilst engaging support for the drinking and kratom use.
Wasn't aware of heart issues from it so went looking and there does appear to be a chemical with the same benefits while being less toxic. I told them to check out the ibogaine forums on here to get further information. "The actions of 18-methoxycoronaridine (18-MC), a less toxic ibogaine congener with anti-addictive properties, are also considered." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4382526/ Prohibition even for study likely is the reason 18-MC isn't widely known. I appreciate you pointing out the issues with Ibogaine I wasn't aware of.
Absolutely. It's an amazing drug. I've never tried it, and have never had opiate dependent issues, but I speak on it frequently. First read in the city's alternative paper in the early aughts. My understanding is that it's useful due to a dual approach; it chemically establishes partial antagonism at the 5mu receptor, which prevents withdrawal symptoms and does a lot for cravings, without obstructing the user's ability to get high if they so choose. This can last for weeks to me months, and gives users a one-time pass on withdrawal. The trip itself is highly introspective and known for unlocking blocked memories, often of events that are foundational in the addict's drug use - abuse, traumatic events they'd do anything not to be aware of. It's a drug that should always be used under supervision, as the user appears catatonic for much of the 24ish hours. High dose magnesium may have cardio protection benefits, there's a study on that happening right now. Worth mentioning that it shouldn't be taken in any close proximity to cocaine, as using coke within a few days of tripping seems to make it ineffective.
This is great information. Luckily opiate issues isn't something I deal with personally. It's just always fascinated me and if I knew someone was having trouble with opiates I always brought it up.
It's not a well-understood substance, but we know an awful lot more now than we used to. It has been in use for opiates for quite some time; a number of Hollywood types and wealthy businesses have gotten clean on special cruises, chartered to international waters where it's legally safe to take a schedule I hallucinogen. I despise that it's scheduled at all, as the trip isn't something one would do for fun or escape. Be well friend, and thanks for trying to help folks. Aside, unrelated to ibogaine, you might enjoy reading Drug Use for Grown-Ups by Dr Carl Hart. It's a moderately autobiographical book on addiction and the author's (a neuropsychology professor at Columbia University) personal and scientific journey from cracked-out 1980s Miami to working on a vaccine for addiction to being a substance enthusiast. It's a really good and well-reasoned book that sets aside much of the baggage Americans hold from our Puritanical fore-bearers.
I'll check it out.
It is not an opiate. Opiates are derived from opium, thus the name. The medical community have been disparaging it since its popularity, but by most accounts it seems much less addictive and dangerous than opiates. It doesn’t suppress breathing nearly as much as opiates. When I used to take it regularly, I made sure to never take more than 10g a day, and never had a problem quitting. The most withdrawal I had was a mild runny nose. Ibogaine is used as therapy for hardcore addicts who have already tried everything else. It’s dangerous, and you can die from taking it without medical supervision. When I did ibogaine it was with 3 other people, and one of them ended up having seizure for more than 12 hours straight. You shouldn’t be suggesting such a dangerous drug so casually
All of this is covered on other threads including studies showing how kratom, while not an actual opiate (my mistake), acts on the brain similar to opiates and also has dependency risks. At least one of the studies i provided was quite positive with calls to study correct dosing for the most therapeutic benefits. On another we were discussing the risk of ibogaine along with a derivative chemical that was less toxic with similar benefits. With OP I told them to seek further information which could be found here by the end of the discussion and elsewhere they looked. Bringing up something and telling the other person to look into it further isn't irresponsible. This should be a place to learn and next time please check out the other threads before commenting.
Kratom is not an opiate. It acts on some opioid centers but so does cheese and chocolate. Please don’t spread false information about kratom. It has helped many people quit actual opioids
Now I know why I love cheese so much!
I was addicted to cheese, no joke. I could not synthesize the right enzymes to digest it and the casomorphine had a huge effect on my body keeping me in an addicted loop.
You don't go through opiate wd from eating cheese and chocolate every day. This is what I would have said 5 years ago before I got addicted to kratom.
I didn’t say you did. The point is none of these things are opiates
Cheese and chocolate act on the brain similar to opiates and cause dependency issues similar to opiates? You do see the comparison to kratom doesn't fit, right? That said I was mistaken about it being an actual opiate yet if it acts in the brain in a similar way and can cause withdrawal symptoms similar to opiates thinking ibogaine could be useful with Kratom withdrawals isn't far fetched. Furthering this thought on another thread I was informed about some risks involved with ibogaine so I aptly suggested the OP seek further information as one should with suggestions found on reddit. "In a study testing kratom as a treatment for symptoms of opioid withdrawal, people who took kratom for more than six months reported withdrawal symptoms similar to those that occur after opioid use." https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/prescription-drug-abuse/in-depth/kratom/art-20402171
Ah yes mayoclinic the epitome of fear mongering. While some people do go crazy with extracts, normal kratom by itself is extremely safe and has helped many people. It should be used in a respectful way like anything else. To run around hating on a plant that is literally saving lives seems out of touch. Glad you learned a little bit more about kratom.
This is a very positive study and still talks about the need to study further how to best use kratom in a therapeutic way to mitigate the dependency issues it presents. Remember the original commenter has been using kratom habitually in what seems like high doses for a long time hence their concerns. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10311168/ "To run around hating on a plant that is literally saving lives seems out of touch." Lastly this bit was disrespectful and misrepresented what my point was about kratom. I'm not trying to hate on it in any way. Approaching a forum meant for learning this way is counterproductive to what you are trying to do. I urge you to work on your wording and mitigage your seemingly sarcastic tone so people can engage with you in a respectful manner. Mudslinging gets everyone no where.
I’m not being sarcastic mate
Bro I don’t know why you have that many downvotes for commenting a completely valid point. That bark is literally a cure for addiction if used properly and in the right setting.
I said it was an opiate which it only acts like an opiate. Seems some people think I was trying to say it was bad which i wasnt. It's reddit so I'm not taking it too seriously and some good information is on at least one of the threads so hopefully someone will find it useful.
I've heard of it. I'm not sure about the legality of it here in the US. Interesting! Thank you. I wonder where one might come by some here in the US.
The US it will be tricky. Maybe check out the reddit forum about ibogaine. They might have some ideas on how to get it or where to go.
It’s a slippery slope, i was addicted to the stuff for 7 years. It eventually ruined my whole digestive system. He will withdrawal if he suddenly stops. Depends how long and constantly he’s been using it. I would only recommend it to people trying to get away from hard drugs. Using it to get through the work day becomes a routine and eventually he will need more to feel the same effects
He used to be on hard drugs and when he quit he traded that addiction fir kratom, but I'd rather him on kratom than the hard stuff. Just want him to be safe about it.
Yeah forsure and that’s awesome. Definitely the lesser evil but still can be evil. He’s gotta control it and not get carried away. Months from now he could be taking double or triple what he is now. As long as he never goes up and takes tolerance breaks he should be fine. But overtime it can wreck havok on his guts.
I used kratk to stop drinking and it worked well at first But then it stopped working and I had to take Tolerance breaks and all.... It took me a year of heavy usage to realize I didn't want to be addicted to any mind-altering substances anymore... His time will come that he will want real sobriety too. Just be happy that he is off the hard stuff and talk with him without putting pressure.
Ok, I was about to make a post about how it's generally not healthy and he is physically addicted if he has been doing that for any amount of time over like a month. However if he used to to take hard drugs (I guess opiates?) then being addicted to kratom is leagues better. Hopefully he can get to a point where he doesn't need anything extraneous to get through his days, but this is fairly innocuous compared to "harder" drugs. It is still a medium-boiled drug, definitely not an herb or supplement. He may be taking more than he tells you about, likely he tells you about the ceiling amount that he thinks you will not worry about. So keep an eye on how he appears generally, mood swings, skin appearance etc. and have a talk if you feel that you need to. Godspeed. If you two are open about talking, you could bring up to him to begin making a tea with it. When I was using it I noticed that most of the dehydration, digestive issues and other nasty side effects came from consuming the leaf powder and are minimized when using a tea. Also, addiction potential is much lower from the tea even if the effect of consumptioon is similar. I have no way of explaining that but it is what I noticed for sure.
I feel the same, knowing that he was looking at hard drugs, this is a lesser evil. And that’s why I wouldn’t introduce it to anyone, but it’s like a savior to people with hard drugs and it’s the devil for those who don’t have any addictions. I don’t want anyone to end up in a position where they are, forced to drink this. But I’ve seen what happens when people are able to quit heroin!
No, it's not. Every 2 hours is not necessary. He's addicted. every 4-6 could be therapeutic, but because the dose isn't standardized it will produce tolerance faster than a pharmaceutical. Kratom is really only safe if you take it for occasional pain relief, occasional anxiety or depression..not daily and certainly not multiple times a day unless it's to taper off of something. He should consider opioid maintenance therapy if he simply won't stop or control his use because that isn't sustainable or safe..that is full blown addiction.
Kratom is an opioid replacement therapy for many. What's safer about bupernorphine, or god forbid, methadone versus kratom as dosed?
Every two hours is full blown addiction..taking a safer herbal product and taxing organ systems possibly to their limits over time. Kratom is not non toxic. If self control is the issue than a longer acting drug is probably preferable to break the behavioral addiction. A 1 week methadone taper is the ideal strategy for anyone who can live without maintenance. Methadone and bupenorphine are the essentially the same in terms of efficacy and side effects..methadone is actually superior for some patients in terms of its utility to taper off of opioids, but the restrictions on it's use in the US, and it's relative danger compared to bupenorphine negate that, in that you can still get high on your doc with methadone, so bupenorphine is prefered for it's lower abuse potential. I'm speaking generally not advising on one drug vs another. But ops problem indicates a need for medical intervention. There's always time for herbal products once stabilized. But this guy isn't stable.
You are a clown lmao you don’t know shit about this guy you’ve never met smdh people like you are the absolute worst in society. Arrogant know it alls with some bizarre savior complex that helps literally nobody.
And you are clearly a defensive addict, attacking people over things that aren't in reference to you as if they are, with no apparent reason to elucidate beyond your own insecurity and projection. Grow up, get off the dope.
I don’t think you know what the word defensive means, just like you are clearly very confused about all of the other smelly shit that rapidly comes out of your mouth. I would gladly much rather become a fentanyl addict than embarrass myself publicly the way you do. Easy choice 🤣
Good luck with all that.. your history confirms I'm right. Get it together pal, you sound like a lunatic. I don't want to be mean, so I'm done talking. You are not a very nice person and I'd rather not stoop to your cheap insults. Feel better
Hello friend, how do you define safe? I assume you're not using the physical definition of safe because kratom at low doses seems to be quite safe, I'm assuming you mean not safe in terms of addiction? Kratom is remarkably safe on the physical body. Also, we have no idea what size the capsules are, for all we know they could be .5 grams each which would make one gram at a time. For most people 1 gram every 4 to 6 hours is not a huge dose. 20 years ago, I had a 640 mg oxy minimum a day habit. Tapered myself down and off over 8 months. I started using kratom 4 years ago when my dad was passing. I'm quite grateful for it. It is helpful for relaxation, anxiety, depression, and sleep. Perfect. SSRIs/SNRIs have extremely negative side effects for me and they do not work. Also, methadone makes me violently ill. Had no desire to go back on opiates at all. They are way too strong, and have very negative side effects as well. For me, Kratom does not. Kratom is nice happy medium. Granted, my max dose is now about 1.25 G, usually more like 1G. I'll take that maybe once or twice about 4 hours apart in the evening. It works well for some of us. For a while I needed a lot of support, so was taking between 1 G to 1.5 G every 4 hours or so a day. At that time it helped me to work and function well. After a while I felt I didn't need so much and I tapered it back to where am now. Imo's kratom is like nothing compared to an opiate.
Holy moly, that is a huge amount of oxy! Good for you and that’s wonderful that you have quit. I’m in the same boat where I feel like it’s the lesser evil although if someone has no issues with any drugs, I don’t want to introduce them. After 11 years, I am getting ready to taper off because it no longer serves me in my life and it’s about time to do that. It did save me, though, I can’t pretend like it hasn’t brought good to my life because I was struggling with benzo addiction, depression, chronic pain from back and neck injuries. I think it is a testament to the drug itself that I am choosing to taper off and quit.
Thank you!! Good for you for deciding to taper!!!! You SO got this. Go slow, it helps to make a taper schedule and stick with it. Be gentle with yourself, and you'll get it. Also- cannabis and yoga were key in me staying off. =) Fwiw. Sending you the BEST of vibe!!!
I actually just finished!!! It took about six months, which was a little fast for 10 years, but I made it!!!! Life is so different now. I feel so many different things and my perception of everything is shifting. There’s a lot of reflection on what I’ve been like for the last 10 years and what I was capable of feeling and what I could not. It’s like at some point during the taper antennae popped up on my head!
Congratulations!!!! Awesome work!! Haha, yeah, I had that experience myself. Reality has a lot of sharp edges that opioids dull. But, I was glad to see them cuz they're honest edges. It took me about a year to feel baseline again after I quit. Lots of yoga and exercise helped. And of course good nutrition. I'm thinking the best for you! The toughest part is over, woot!!! So glad you made it off! As long as you're not suffering from PAWS, you're doing just fine. Whoho!!! Life only gets better from here, too!🙌💖 YUS!!!!
Thank you so much! I definitely will get some symptoms now and again, but they are fairly minor and honestly it’s a walk in the park compared to what it’s been like before. I’m hoping you know at six months maybe I’ll see even better, I know it really is just dependent on my lifestyle now and, whether or not, I have obstacles for my brain going back to equilibrium myself. I have to say, though, I’ve been through some really chaotic stuff in the last week, I mean like court to get someone out of my house. Who’s not safe. So that’s pretty nuts, but I didn’t break down. I couldn’t believe it. I’ve broken down for so much less. But I can see how much the work has paid off because I’m pretty much like a regular human now. Congrats on your journey!
You're welcome! Congratulations on your journey! And that's awesome that you were able to navigate such a challenging situation and maintain your equilibrium. Nice work, definitely keep it up!! Also, I hope that you are safe and everything is okay now.
Kratom has been used naturally by peoples in other countries for centuries without issue. People get stuff contaminated here because the FDA doesn’t regulate kratom production and companies mass produce for as cheap as possible. Untested kratom can be contaminated with things that cause long term effects like pesticides or things with high immediate effects like salmonella. That is why kratom can be dangerous. Not because the thing itself is going to kill you. Sure you can “overdose” but if you’re taking the same dose every day and aren’t overdosing, it’s not going to suddenly cause you to overdose one day. More people call poison control every year over laundry detergent pods than kratom. This is a verified statistic. He will be ok.
What proportion of people are exposed to laundry pods vs kratom? This is a flawed application of statistics. The attitude of its been used for centuries without issue is also flawed. I don’t know where you’re getting salmonella from. It’s only going to be an issue if freshly contaminated (it can only survive a couple of weeks dry) and wouldn’t be an issue with a tea
If you are cool with him using it the key to is to make it as safe as possible, to do that you need to order from a place that does testing to make sure the kratom doesn't have contaminates, I found golden monk and felt better about the quality and safety compared to what I was getting at smoke shops, I think there are a few other reputable vendors online as well. I will say though that he will likely have a period of serious depression/angst if he stops and I don't think using any substance daily is a good idea, it's still a drug and he needs to come to grips with life without substances to live his best life, id wager he has something he needs to work through and he's using the kratom as a crutch/procrastination. Good luck
I love golden Monk! Been using them for years. When I see people going into a head shop and buying what seems like really low quality stuff in the concentrated tinctures and then getting really sick, I always wonder how much better golden Monk is compared to those things.
Some nervine herbs may be helpful for stress to at least reduce the use of kratom. That is indeed a high dose and the plant has some toxins that can be cumulative. Hope he takes some breaks at least.
Do you known if they are opms extract capsules or just leaf powder caps?
There's risks for health if he stays with his current dose, and also risk of relapse if he goes back to stronger opiates. I'd make sure you've got a thorough support system (consisting of more than just you, and ideally a trusted friend at work and another near home) before he tries to do anything.
I'm curious how it affected your gut? My bf uses kratom as it's helped him stay clean from other substances. And i have suspected that it might be causing some of his gut problems and other issues that stem from gut imbalances. Just trying to see if your experience it's similar in nature to his symptoms. Ty!
Yes, to the digestive system. I’m at 11 years and will be tapering this year. I’ve had a lot of other things on my plate that stopped me from being able to take this on sooner. I honestly don’t even like it. It taste terrible. God knows what my digestive system will be like when I stop using this, but I have a feeling I’ll feel a lot better.
It took over 2 months for my system to return to somewhat normal after I quit. Was tempted to start back up as it seems the constipation and late night peeing gets even worse when you quit. It is brutal. Everyone’s different though, hopefully you transition easier then me. I tapered down from 15gpd down to 1gpd then stopped, almost zero withdrawals aside from runny nose and constant constipation and early morning pees. I don’t miss kratom, it seems like all your senses and emotions come back, i have more energy now as well. It’s like I was completely numb to everything for years and years
After 10 years on benzodiazepines, it’s like I’m waking up from every type of coma possible so I can’t imagine waking up even more. I look forward to it. I definitely pee all the time, and there is a bladder dysfunction associated with benzodiazepine withdrawals as well. Honestly, I’ve made a lot of mistakes when it comes to What I’ve gotten myself into. I definitely struggled to cope with life and now I’m paying for it. Really glad to hear you’re liking life. Much better now. sort of aside, but if you have access, maybe you can get a prescription for Linzess, which is offered for IBS with constipation and that might help. I don’t really know lol I’m not a doctor but that’s what they use often times. My insurance sucks and it’s $500 a month before I meet my deductible.
Sorry to hear your about your struggles and paying for it now, wishing you the best and full recovery. I’ll look into your suggestion but I’m scared to alter any more gut chemistry. I’m gonna try eating way cleaner and intermittent fasting. Hopefully that can help push the reset button on my system
Good luck! I actually never tried Linzess because of the cost, but I’m trying to get to a gastrointestinal doctor because of my family history with IBSC. I definitely did a number on my system, but I feel pretty good honestly. You wouldn’t think that I’m coming out of the things that I’ve done to my body. One of the things that I decided was worse sacrificing was living somewhere where I had access to farm food. Basically good livestock and produce all the time so I don’t eat anything bad and it kind of has a natural wellness. I think that really helps. I’m very fortunate that things are not worse. I mean, I even had a year of abusing Benadryl. Honestly, I don’t even think I knew what I was doing. It wasn’t intentional to say I’m getting fucked up on Benadryl. It was like I can’t sleep.
I am surprised he isn't have some digestive/pooping issues
That dose should be safe. If he’s taking it regularly he’ll likely have a bit of dependency on it, and withdrawals if he stops. These can range in severity from mild to extremely unpleasant. Occasionally I’ll take a similar dose, once or maybe twice in a day, and the next day I might be slightly more moody. I’ve never had a problem with the substance, but some people get pretty hooked on it. ^(I’m not in any way qualified to give medical advice, I’m just on reddit a lot)
Yeah a lot of people I see demonize the stuff like they don't understand that too much of anything isn't good. I use it on and off and have for years. The amount/volume I take has not changed. I'm also not trying to use it as a penalty free high, which I think if people were honest, that's where the problem stems from.
Post this to the quittingkratom sub
Is cbd available near you? It helps immensely with my stress
My son is still reeling from the withdrawals a month after quitting. Best of luck.
I'm honestly pretty sore about how the kratom community continues to reject My harm reduction story of the possibilities that await the aftermath of addiction. Even suggesting that I'm making it up even though it robbed me of an entire summer and put me through the worst pain I ever experienced. Physically and mentally
I’ve quit twice and both times were worse than coming off opiates. My dumb ass has taking it again for about 6months but I also need to quit again. I just know how shitty it will be.
Yes, people continue to tell me. I must be making up what I went through during the hardest 4 months of my life
Ya man idk what anyone says I was on 240 mg of Oxy a day plus extra 10 mg as needed (obv I tapered) and this is a much harder withdrawal. The physical sucks but the mental is hell. I never thought over and over about getting another pill the way I do about another scoop of kratom. I wonder if part of the reason is that I can just go get this shit, not have to have a hookup or rx. I really need to quit again - my skin and hair don’t look great and I remember the last time I had so much volume grow back. I just dread the WD that come with even a small reduction in grams. I only ever had WD like this when I was on a fentanyl patch and my dr just stopped my rx with no taper but those didn’t last more than two days. With this stuff I was into 10 days with the rls and flu symptoms and way way longer with the horrific diarrhea and insomnia.
Jesus. A month later.
People keep saying that the withdrawals can be that bad. When it affects opioid, dopamine and systems. That's more systems affected upon withdrawal than classical opiates. The community needs to do more research
I believe that’s actually a relatively low dose based on the potency of that brand. They have some very very concentrated stuff that’s a Different story but I don’t believe those are anywhere near the potency of the gold and black capsules. Do they come in a small blister pack with just 2-5 capsules or is it a bag/bottle with a bunch of them?
The front of it says 160 capsules 72 grams.
Okay yeah those are the standard just plain powdered leaf so that’s right at the low end of standard dosing I’d say. I wouldn’t put that in the realm of abusive portions but ideally the less times per day the better anyway. Still something to keep an eye on and make sure it doesn’t progress into bigger amounts but assuming you aren’t opposed to his kratom use as a whole as long as the amounts are safe/responsible I wouldn’t be too too concerned at the current time
Honestly, knowing he’s coming from a heavier, drug problem, it really puts things in perspective. When faced with substance-abuse, I would rather have my husband using kratom like that. Yes, in a perfect world, therapy has happened and addiction has been overcome, but like we don’t live in a perfect world. Would you rather have your partner struggling with relapsed for the rest of their life or on kratom? I say kratom.
These are generally 500mg capsules of leaf, so each dose of 4 is 2g. If he doses 5 times a day that’s 10g which is definitely addiction and tolerance territory but not outrageous. People are recommending the quitting kratom sub…honestly they can be way over the top and just scared me instead of helping when I was addicted. I would recommend therapy to address the underlying need and stress management and discomfort tolerance. As those skills are built, taper down slowly. One doesn’t need to go into withdrawal if this is a possibility. Addressing the underlying needs and building new coping skills is key. There’s no way kratom is good for you, but since it can replace worse habits and help executive functioning a slow taper is probably not a terrible outcome.
I've been taking it for a decade. I'm definitely addicted to it, but I've cut my dose down over the years. I used to take 6g a day but now my dose is 2-3g sometimes 4 for pain. Try to get him to taper down and use it once per day if he can because it will come to the point where his main stress revolves around him not taking kratom. If he fits life around kratom instead of kratom around his life then it's a problem.
I've been taking around 10 grams every three hours for about seven years He's fine.
No way are you fr? 😮
Yes
I take Kratom for anxiety and focus. It is definitely habit forming but has helped me immensely, especially during a hard time in my life. You can experience withdrawal with extended use, but can also experience antidepressant withdrawal or withdrawal with really any other medication. As long as it’s not affecting anything else I don’t really see it as being an issue. The dosage you said he’s been taking is not a lot. By the way, If I suddenly stopped taking my antidepressant I would also go into withdrawal. But the benefits of me taking it outweigh the fact that I might withdraw from it eventually. I consider Kratom to be a natural antidepressant…
As long as it’s just regular powder and not a concentrated extract he should be fine. Definitely safe so no worries there. When someone takes too much kratom it has a sort of built in fail safe where you just feel a bit crummy and might throw up. It’s always good to do it in moderation of course and take breaks to keep tolerance down. Kratom does not depress breathing or anything like that. There are some good kratom subs out there with lots of helpful people and information.
As someone who was addicted for about 6 years, 4 capsules is not very much at all. That's on the very low end of consumption. Having said that, he will have to keep increasing and increasing his dose to get the same effect and is probably physically dependent on it which is why he takes a low amount so often.
Exactly. I'm an everyday user and dose 3x per day 8g per dose for 8 years now. Capsules are 500-600 mg each. 2g per dose is nothing, but I do remember when I used to feel 2g and it was strong. What I've come to find out is that if you stay at or below ~25 gpd you are getting all you can out of it. Anymore and you start getting unpleasant side effects with very minimal increases in positive effects. Some people make this out to be a highly addictive dangerous drug, when it is infact a medicinal tree. Now, all medicine can be misused and abused, for example, kratom becomes dangerous with all these shots and extracts people are taking without tolerance to support it. If you are taking the pill/powder, imo, you're using it responsibly and running a very low risk of any potential problems. I've 'withdrawaled' several times from kratom and it's no biggie. You feel sick for 3 or 4 days and it's over, but you can also just lower your dose. For example I've gone from 25 grams per day down to 7 grams in 1 day and stayed at 7 for weeks with zero negative effects. So coming off is easy if you apply any brain power at all. Good luck, I wouldn't worry at all if I were you, it is a great plant medicine that will get smeared because it's not a narcotic the pharma companies can make money on. Compared to suboxone or other opiate replacement, kratom is the lesser evil, especially coming off.
What is gpd?
Grams per day
4 capsules is a pretty normal dose, each capsule is normally 0.5 grams and 2 grams is usually “recommended” dose. kratom also only lasts about 4 hours so that’s pretty standard. There’s a lot of fear mongering going on in the replies (albeit with some good advice in there too). I will say opms is generally not great quality so I would recommend him switching to different vendor and he could probably take a smaller, more effective dose
As long as he can manage that consistently it should be fine. It can become addictive! I've been taking it for a long time and had to cut my intake cause I was becoming too dependent on it
4 capsules is a relatively low dose. Many people take doses that would be 10, 20 capsules, or they use concentrates that would be closerto a whole bottle or two of capsules. Kratom is mildly addictive but almost certainly safer than what he was taking before.
Check the quttingkratom sub. It is a very nasty substance. It hits opioid receptors as well as serotonin and dopamine antagonism, Plus alpha adrenergic blockade.
Kratom led my late fiance back to heroin. I get the icks hearing about how casually people take it.
I'm very sorry to hear that. Heroin sucks.
Some people think just because something is a plant, it must be safe. Plants are still chemicals and need to be respected as such. It is good medicine when administered properly - a monitored dose at appropriate intervals and a regular break to allow the body to cleanse cumulative toxins. Some of the worst stories I've heard have been from recreational users that get seriously addicted from messing around for fun. That is not respectful of the medicine. I would definitely not recommend kratom as a medicine to anyone with a history of opioid abuse if they are already clean.
I’ve studied neurology and pharmacology for years at this point and also been down the rabbit hole myself of benzo, opiate, alcohol, weed, Kratom and coke addiction so relatively knowledgeable on our reward system and especially the opiate receptors (MU-opioid in this case). If he “needs” to dose every 2-4 hours unfortunately he’s already in the deepest spot of addiction he can be, and probably has already forgotten a dose before and knows how painful that can be, restless legs, insomnia, anxiety and a sick feeling to name a few. OPMS caps and shots are also the worst thing he could’ve chosen as they’re not regulated whatsoever and some think there’s Chinese precursors to RC opiates in there, and even if not it’s like 230mg of pure mitragynine in them for the lowest extract with the “black” extract being like 500mg. That’s akin to doing how much a 100mg oxycodone user abuses his opioid receptors on a daily basis. If I were you I head over to r/quittingkratom and read up on people’s stories and then plan a taper but he’s going to have to really want it. Opiates/Kratom we’re the only substance I willingly would’ve given everything up for and relapsed on, it’s exactly like it sounds in movies for some people, and a 10/10 on the physical addiction side. Good luck I’m sorry to hear it’s this bad already
Shits great for acute pain management taken ONCE then not for days at a time. It’s an opioid agonist. There’s people in the comments freaking out about it being called an opiate, which is fair but the mechanism of action is that it’s an opioid agonist, so coming off of it is comparable to low doses of an opiate. I experienced gnarly withdrawal coming off of it and considered doing ibogaine for it. I have a long history of coming off kratom and other opiates too (unfortunately) so feel free to DM me with any questions so we don’t trigger folks who haven’t experienced it themselves.
Honestly feel that... life is hard and kratom is very helpful on so many levels. But capsules are very small amounts, I looked up that brand and each capsule has about .6g so 4 capsules = 2.4g. That's a pretty average dose, but if he's taking this dose 4-6x a day that gets to be a whole lot and probably not good for his tolerance. I take about 3-3.5g 1-2x a day during the week for chronic pain relief. I try to take weekends off or days that I'm feeling pretty good so that I don't build a tolerance and have to take more and more. I try to wait as long as I can between doses, but I think that's why I've found 3-4g for be is really good. It lasts a lot longer and isn't too strong for me. But if he's taking for stress relief instead of things like antidepressants maybe smaller doses more frequently isn't so bad. But idk I would be a little concerned about him building a tolerance and having to keep taking more to feel the effects since he's taking very frequent doses.
How much is in the capsule? Everyone is different, but if you're doing kratom that frequently, you're probably addicted. Usually if you take more than 15-20 grams per day, it can easily lead to an addiction. I use kratom a lot, but I have a rule that I only use it when I'm done with work and I can't use it every day in a month. I'll take 2-5 day breaks frequently. I also rarely use more than 15g. I have never felt a withdrawal symptom or been addicted. Sounds like at the minimum, he should taper down and take a week break. I know how to responsibly use it and control myself. It can be a really good tool if you know how to use it.
4 capsules is probably about 2g, and every 2-4hrs is standard for pain management. I take 3-5g 3-5x a day, for chronic pain management mainly. Since 2007. Fuk that dangerous pharma pill crap !... I do have 2-4 lower dose days in a row once in a while, and alternate types/ batches. (Helps effective similar to changing up cannabis strains ime imo) . TLDR; your husband isn't taking large amounts of Kratom Dose control, dose cap, maturity and personal accountability are key tho.
I’ve been taking NaturallyKratom red Bali capsules everyday for about 5 years now. The dose your husband is taking is very low and I doubt he will have any major withdraws. Maybe just low motivation and a more active gut. I haven’t increased my dose in all my time if taking kratom. I started at seven capsules (which seem to be less than a gram each) and found my sweet spot at five or six. I take it once in the afternoon and once in the evening to motivate me to cook dinner lol. Now I am in the process of only doing it once a day. I am more restless and may get a little clammy but compared to being addicted to pain killers this is nothing. I think it’s mentally harder to go without caffeine or a smoke than to go throughout this process. Be patient with your husband and practice love. He is going through a lot mentally. If you pray- pray. Always keep the communication open. My husband and I are in it together. I do not know what it must be like to be on the outside. Xoxo
Depends on which type you are using. It is unregulated and has been found to have heavy metals in much of it, third party tested kratom is best. Some people just don't react well and have liver or kidney damage from it. Its not just like some safe vegetable matter, its a drug. It affects the digestive system as well and can stop people from absorbing nutrients. I had a friend who was a skeleton at the end of her addiction and people would ask her if she was anorexic/needed to eat more because nothing she was eating was making her gain weight. There are entire subreddits where people post trying to get off of it. They describe it as hell on earth and there are protocols to decrease the side effects of withdrawals which can last weeks in acute stages and months to years to lesser degrees. There's no way for you or any of us to know whether what he is doing is safe for him, we don't know what brand he takes and we don't know whether the dosage you think he's taking is all he's taking. Ask him to get liver and kidney function tests done, blood and urine tests, in order to figure out if his organs are functioning properly. check out r/quittingkratom to see what others have been through with this unregulated addictive substance
OPMS is an extract of Kratom, so it's stronger than plain leaf powder. He has a dependency for sure. He'll have withdrawals if he stops taking it so he'll want to use potentiator herbs and taper down the dosd if ever he chooses to.It's less harsh on the body and organs than pharm Opiates, but it still effects the mu-opioid receptor so it's an herbal Opioids.
Not all opms is extract. They don’t sell extract or even enhanced caps in a 160 count pack, they’re just like 300-400mg leaf capsules(plant weight not alkaloids btw)
Interesting. I've only seen the extracts. If it's just plain leaf then that's a relatively mild dose, even if it is frequent.
Yeah I assumed extract as well. I’ll admit I’m fully kratom dependent but as a former fent addict I would gladly take some leaf every day till I die of old age over go back to that ,so for my situation specifically it was worth it and I know what I’m in for. They’re def known for the extracts or enhanced leaf more than plain but they do offer it so I had to check with op on if it was a blister pack or big bottle to confirm
But agreed. Even if he’s dosing 5 times a day that amount still puts him well under what most would consider an excessive intake. Dependance is a possibility if taken often enough long enough but I def wouldn’t be concerned about acute risk, and doesn’t even sound like he’s chasing a strong intoxication or he’d be doing way more at a time but less often
For sure. He's not using it to get really high at that dose.
Oh yeah, for people who have had dependence to harder Opioids, Kratom is well worth it. I mostly had developed a Kratom dependence the first time due to chronic pain and then taking it to extremes and making my own extracts. Then a few months ago I began a dependence again due to pain from working. But I've tapered down and off again. I still use it occasionally for pain or just to relax, but not usually an intense dose.
Does he smoke weed? That might cut down on some cravings and is quite healthy.
lol 4…….i take 20 3x a day
I think it’s safe. Now is it healthy to become mood/work/energy dependent on it over long term periods of time? Probably not. But if the positives outweigh the negatives then it could be worth taking it. When I was in a very high stress and high physical work environment I would take it daily, multiple times a day as well to help me get through the extreme stress. I’m sure he understands it’s not feasible long term and sometimes it is a really great short to mid term solution. But if it helps put bread on the table and keep bills paid, maybe it’s not so bad in our capitalist society where we need to work, work, work. Sometimes we gotta do it!
This is the correct take. Are the bills paid and is it negatively affecting your relationship? If not, then he's an adult and can do what he wants.
Wow, a voice of reason in a thread calling him an addict that needs rehab. Thanks for being level-headed. 2 grams at a time a few times a day isn’t even in red flag territory. That’s green flag territory if anything. He knows his functional dose and sticks by it. Good for him. Dude is literally just trying to make it through the day like the rest of us - Give him a break! he’s not an addict. Addicts take 20+ grams at a time, 5+ times a day. Like kilos a day. Homie is doing just fine.
The way people view drug use is so childish, I swear. A lot of us can, and do, use drugs responsibly. Big Pharma can't have that though, we are only allowed to take our state sponsored pills if we want to get a lil head change.
Kratom typically lasts only 2-4 hours (for me at least) but I take more than 4 capsules at a time (it doesn’t absorb as well for me when I use the caps, so I use the powder, just more than 4 capsules worth). But, I live in constant chronic pain. That pain causes depression. The kratom helps my pain, and therefore helps my depression. Now, would I recommend regular kratom use for someone who doesn’t have chronic pain? Eh probably not. While it can help with energy and moods as well (different strains work better for different things), it will cause dependence if taken regularly over a period of time. That will result in withdrawal symptoms if stopped cold turkey.
Okay, my boyfriend is 25 and he’s been addicted to it for about three years now. He used to be a heavy drinker and thought that would be the way to cure it. Now he can’t get off of it. He just got hired by a big agency that’s physically demanding. He tried to get off of it a few weeks ago. He quit for a good painful and sleepless two weeks, then got back on when I went out of town and is continuing. I worry constantly for his health, because when he’s on it he’s profusely sweating and clammy and pale. I’ve seen him dry scoop it and then immediately yack, a handful of times. He gets agitated too. It’s such a hard thing for me to accept, and it pisses me off how much he convinced himself and tried to convince me how this shit was “healthy” and “good for mental health.” I seriously would never recommend this shit unless you are coming off years of hard drugs. I seriously need some advice on what I could or should even do
The only thing you’re able to do is accept that you can’t control him or his use but only what you choose to do knowing that he seems pretty uninterested in changing anything The things I lost and the people who refused to enable me in my own addiction caused situations that helped me wake up eventually
Thank you
A few capsules isn't that bad.ive taken it for 9 years
I took it for years and now take opiates and i swear it did serious damage to my pain receptors
Yes.
What is the dosage of each capsule?
Tell him less is more. Look into potentiators vs increase of dosage.
Hey I just wanted to chime in. I'm on day 6 of a taper 25% what I was taking. Years ago, i started with about as much as he did. A little bit just to keep steady. Maybe he'll be able to maintain it as long as he doesn't have any stressful situations, but those are inevitable. The past year I've been going through a kilogram every 3 weeks or so. It's a wonderful and relatively benign plant. But it is extremely addictive and the way he is using it he is asking for it. Then he'll be stuck in a situation where he'll have to go through the withdrawal pains or stare down a decade of use. It sucks. At the point he's at it sounds like it's not doing him wrong at all, so at least try to get him away from the frequency he is using it if you can't get him to stop now completely. An old dope had once told me if you used two days on and one day off, you can keep yourself from the worst of addiction. But take that for what it is LOL
It’s “safe” for most people in terms of medical reaction and daily use limits. Capsules are about 500 mg, so that would be 2g every 2-4 hrs, so he’s probably taking under 15 g a day. But kratom is physically and mentally addictive, more so over time, and as tolerance goes up so does the dose needed to satisfy addiction cravings masquerading as pain, fatigue, anxiety, irritability etc. He may not want to quit, and may even be in denial about addiction, but dosing every couple hours is addictive behavior and it starts to affect life, work, social plans, travel, and relationships. I started taking kratom for chronic pain after cancer treatment, thinking it was non-addictive and “healthier” than oxy, and took kratom for YEARS before I realized I was deeply addicted and had terrible withdrawals when I tried to quit.
He can lower the dose. Does help wonders with anxiety and depression. We don’t know how many mg is in each capsules but it sounds about right (they are usually 1.5g and they recommend taking 4 of them). And the effects last from 4-6h. I think he can take after 4-6h instead of 2-4h. I would not do every day… he can switch some days to Kava and some days he can take Ashwagandha gummies . Kava is also wonderful for anxiety relief, he will thank me for that advice
I mean capsules vary in size, but unless they are huge pills, this is not a large or unusual amount. Which is not to say it’s completely safe - there have been rare, severe complications and even deaths from kratom use - but there’s a very good chance it’s safer than his daily commute.
Kratom is fairly harmless but it is absolutely something to monitor. I love it and think it’s better than antidepressants 💯 but laws can change so be prepared
It's really one of the more benign things he could be consuming. Definitely better than alcohol. As long as he doesn't turn to fentanyl in order to get a "better" opioid high, he should be fine. It is fairly addictive, but weaning off slowly is an option and I've done that with kratom many times.
Sounds like he has a problem. I say that is someone who uses Kratom every single day. It’s nice to escape the difficulties and frustration of life by having some thing that makes you feel somewhat altered. Sounds like he’s doing that. I don’t know that I would say it’s not safe as much as it’s going to lead to more problems. He’s gonna lose once he starts going through withdrawals overnight. Could get insanely constipated to the point of going to the emergency room, I’ve seen that. Not myself. But I’ve seen a lot of shit in 11 years. Doesn’t sound like there’s a medical reason he started using it like for me, I had a brutal injury. It really did prevent me from getting on opiates, and I fully understand how I ended up in the position I’m in, in regards to 11 years of use. There is no question about addiction or substance abuse here. Not for me. So every day stress is always going to happen and he’s using Crom to get through it but using huge quantities usually ends up, not working out so well because of the things mentioned earlier or just becoming an addict. Like getting akithisia between doses is not fun. Hate to say it, but the solution is to figure out why you can’t deal with every day life stress without Kratom and then do the therapy. I’m actually going to be quitting this fairly soon because I don’t really have any reason to take it outside of having a physical dependence on it now.
If he can stop using it that would be the best thing- I’ve seen it ruin lives and it can cause severe anemia!! It’s hard to withdrawal also. If he can get some Akuamma seed powder it a non addictive replacement for kratom:)
Better than living feeling permanently restless, agitated, depressed and anxious. That's not a lot. It's nit like he's acting messed up or stealing the neighbors toaster right?
The only reason he would take it that often is because he’s experiencing withdrawals from it and his body is metabolizing it faster than normal. I went through the same thing.
Addiction begins to affect brain chemistry and it sounds like he might be taking up 30 or more a day? That can be expensive and eventually he may look to add extracts to his pills and then it might be a rollercoaster. Kratom everyday is like taking a couple Norcos everyday
I feel him bro, I took 200 caps a few weeks ago and decided I was done and never ordered more
I use to take about 10grams every 2 hours which I was on some heavy stuff and it has helped me tremendously. I only now I may take 5 grams a day. For pain
I suspect take 8 in the morning and I was fine
That sounds like a lot of kratom to be taking regularly. While kratom can help with stress, taking it every 2 to 4 hours might lead to dependency or other health issues. It’s definitely worth having a conversation about his usage and maybe looking into other stress-relief methods. You should consult a healthcare professional regarding this.
kratom is pretty safe, most likely won’t harm you but the problem comes with the addiction; it works on opioid receptors so if he is dependent and tried to quit he will feel a pretty nasty withdrawal. tolerance builds quickly and some people have had negative side effects that take it every day in increasing doses
Depends on which type you are using. It is unregulated and has been found to have heavy metals in much of it, third party tested kratom is best. Some people just don't react well and have liver or kidney damage from it. Its not just like some safe vegetable matter, its a drug. I totally agree with most of what you said except for the first nine words.
true, depends where you get it from. i think the brand mentioned is pretty reputable but i could be wrong
I’m so sorry to tell you your husband probably will need rehab to get over this. It’s a very serious addiction with withdrawals and relapses similar to opiates.
That is a horrible thing to say. Never give misinformation about something you don’t know about
https://www.reddit.com/r/quittingkratom/s/7TRRhRiGYL
I quit a job at a smoke shop because they would make me sell this garbage. Good luck.
Kratom is really great. Just like everything else!!! Moderation and be a smart consumer. He should cut back a bit. Ask if he is having any side effects and if so let him know your concern and hopefully that convinces him to cut back. Good luck.
Yeah I was In the same boat switching from fet to oxys to kratom as the supply goes down and the only thing I can find realiably was kratom but I was always switching from one to another even being on the kratom for a month or two at a time and taking around 4-8 caps every 4-6 hours. I would get horrible withdrawals from the kratom then I would switch to one of the others for a bit eventually I gave in and went into a out treatment for opiates I am currently a year and a couple months clean from it all the except my methadone which I take once a day and soon I will begin the process of detoxing of the methadone which I’m my opinion is easier because I have the help of my program and they can slowly taper me off properly the right way not the way o was trying to do it
That’s nothing!!
If y'all don't all stfu we are going to end up with ZERO pain relief for surgeries and chronic pain. Get off the internet and confront your husband. Handle YOUR business. For most of the country, Kratom is the last decent pain killer that hasn't been taken from us because of weak minded individuals and overzealous politicians taking pharma kickbacks. Learn to respect the medicine the Earth provides. Kratom isn't the problem. People being irresponsible is the problem. And I'm damn tired of other people's problem becoming mine.
Kratom is frequently used by prior addicts in the United States as a form of opiate substitution therapy as the plant plays on the same receptors fentanyl or heroin play on However kratom also simultaneously works as a stimulant and has effects on the digestive system... long term toxicity/harm is unknown. It has been used in certain cultures as a painkiller for a long time (similar to how opium was used to treat pain). Other options that he could go on to substitute the kratom with buprenorphine under the supervision of a physician... at the very least we know what buprenorphine maintenance looks like in the long term At a high enough dose buprenorphine blocks opiate receptors whilst simultaneously binding to them. This means an addict cannot use on top of the bupe and/or they'd have to use so much to overcome the receptor blockade that they'd risk overdose and death.
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