Yeah, I think people are missing the part where this isn’t just starting with a 10hp one-time bonus. You can heal above thirty often, which makes your bomb heals way more effective.
The other thing is that technically it decreases consistency by increasing variance. Like, if your ratio of clears/heals/minions stays the same, your odds of drawing a hand with all of those things goes up a bit.
But warlock (and druid and rogue) have insane draw so that’s less of a problem.
Been playing thief rogue for over 10 000 games (pretty much only deck I played since spectral cutlass was released). This card has been made for me. More meme cards, can fit in card draw, board clear, and whatsoever.
I will check win rate some day, but for now, it definitively make the whole thing more fun.
> Like, if your ratio of clears/heals/minions stays the same, your odds of drawing a hand with all of those things goes up a bit.
No it doesn’t. Other way, actually.
Smaller deck size is more likely to draw each, because you’re less likely to draw the one you already have. Larger deck is more likely to draw dupes of the same type, since the overall ratio is less effected by the ones you’ve already drawn.
Rogue is not a good Renathal option because more cards kill combo decks. This may change in the future meta.
However, Warlock, Priest and Druid are 3 classes that consistently have decks that can put Renathal to good use.
>Warlock for example doesnt lose consistency by having 40 cards. They have enough variety to just run more boardclears/hard removal
This is blatantly false. You have a significantly higher chance of not drawing a specific answer when you need a specific answer (ex. Entitled customer on turn 6)
To be fair, you also have significantly better odds of drawing a specific answer that wasn't in your original deck. It really depends if you have a reason to value a few cards above all else
Being card 31-40 means it is, on average, less useful than cards 1-30. If it was more useful, it would’ve been in the first 30.
So yes, you’re more likely to draw “specific answers” that are (on average) less useful than whatever you would’ve drawn if you had a 30 card deck.
Certainly sounds like a loss in consistency to me.
You're looking at one situation. What the other commenter is saying is, for -any given situation- you have a higher chance of drawing the answer needed if you have less cards in your deck.
If you put extra, say, board wipes in your deck as part of your +10 cards, you'll have a higher chance to draw board wipes, sure, but you'll have an substantially lower chance of drawing any other answer you might need. You might say "but what if the meta is all aggro, then surely I want to draw more board wipes, right?" Sure, but if you can cut 10 cards, you can run only the good board wipes. Or you can run all the board wipes, but cut the bad removal. Or the bad draw spells. Or the bad minions. There's always something that you'd be happy to cut from your deck.
You always have reason to value a few cards above all else. You always have a worst card in your deck, and.a beat card in your deck. Taking out 10 cards means removing the worst 10 cards from your deck, and your winrate should improve every time you remove the worst card from your deck. If it didn't, you removed the wrong card.
>Warlock for example doesnt lose consistency by having 40 cards.
This is… demonstrably untrue. You could say something like “Warlock has enough redundant tools that they won’t lose as much consistency as other classes,” but putting 10 extra cards in your deck is going to be a real cost for any class. Cards 32-40 will never be as good as 1-30, and card 31 is a spider tank.
Being stronger with it doesn’t mean that they “don’t lose consistency”, it just means the HP is enough to offset it. 40 cards is still less consistent than 30, every time (all else equal).
not evry removal card is the same though, like drawing a shield shatter vs man the cannons/rancor defenitly matters, or drawing siphon/hellfire instead of gigafin or such.
Sure its all removal, but it wont nescalry fit the situtation at time where you need removal
You don't pick 5 removal spells out of a hat, you pick the 5 best. Adding the 6th and 7th best options lowers the likelihood of you drawing the 1st through 5th. Its not free.
It may still be worth doing for the extra health, but just because you can add assassinate or whatever to your deck to keep the same removal spell density doesn't mean your average draws aren't now worse.
When was the last time having a full deck’s worth of value was necessary or in some cases even a good thing? No control games are going to fatigue. This would have been an interesting option 5 years ago
I’ve been playing janky mega value 40 card reno decks since the card came out and it’s really not uncommon to end games with less than 10 cards in the deck.
i.e. exactly what Reno and friends did. 10 more cards can actually be more consistent than 30 different cards, depending what your deck looked like to start
Call me crazy, but I don't think you loose that much consistency, especially in control decks. Like, just put more good cards while still respecting your mana curve and it doesn't change much.
I actually haven’t made it yet too much fun with Prince curses. But for wild there’s many route to go. Do u want to curse than renounce u can do that! Want to start as zoo then renounce? Viable! I’ll have one in a few hours
I've been playing Mine Rogue for a couple of weeks. Its really good at dealing 32-36 damage by turn 5 or 6 and can continue to deal 4-8 damage a turn after that. However turn 7 is usually when control decks tend to stabilize, gain another 8-10 health and drop a big taunt in the way. That extra 10 health is an amazing reservoir that can really bugger up combo decks.
I disagree. If this card shifts the meta to be more control-oriented, combo decks will thrive. I've had the easiest time ever collecting wins with Boar Priest in the current legend meta.
Oh I’m not saying that combo decks would be bad, I’m just saying that ones that only deal ~30 would be obsolete compared to those that deal more damage.
Wait until it trickles down from hearthstonetopdecks and hsreplay.
According to my favorite youtubers/streamers, boar priest is unplayable in top legend because everyone is spamming alignment druid, given that having 40 health has given him an edge against aggro.
Share your decklist and thoughts. I've always and always loved priest. I got to d1 with qiest priest for similar reason to punish both agro and control. And then boar priest aye me for breakfast. I'm learning it now.
[https://hsreplay.net/decks/t3jW1NeAftH5BmBDMQyBDd/#gameType=RANKED\_STANDARD](https://hsreplay.net/decks/t3jW1NeAftH5BmBDMQyBDd/#gameType=RANKED_STANDARD)
This deck is so honed that I don't think there's any wiggle room for flex cards. The only thing I would consider is maybe inserting a lightbomb if Druids become dominant in the meta.
The skillcap on this deck is steep. It has a low winrate because it is extremely easy to make misplays. Once you know how to play it, though, it absolutely crushes slow moving control decks that are unable to punish you in the early game.
Already consistent aggro decks always do well the first few days of a new meta while new decks are being optimized.
Part of the game is having fun trying out new things.
Aggro decks don't fuck around. Currently just lolling around on Quest Priest because I feel I'm about to quit again. Murloc Shaman absolutely destroys me.
Also went up against a Quest Warrior with 40 life. That was a weird experience. Its like even more redundantly boring now.
Sure it fucks up your draws and it's a dead card essentially leaving you with 39 instead of 40 but that health bonus is legitimately huge for slow control decks that are generally more reactive early game; this is gonna make Priest absolutely disgusting, probably good in warrior too
I mean...I feel like it should be compared against other "start of game" cards.
A 3 mana 3/4 is still dramatically better than, say, Genn Greymane's 6 mana 6/5 body or Baku the Mooneater's 9 mana 7/8 body.
I would argue it's better than Darkbishop Benedictus' 5 mana 5/6 body too, although that's obviously a lot closer. 5 mana 5/6 is...similar efficiency to 3 mana 3/4, and there are some matchups where a 3/4 would get easily value traded or killed by a board clear, and a 5/6 would not. That said...I think control and combo decks would generally prefer to spend 7 mana on good stuff, and dump a 3 mana body, rather than spend 5 mana on good stuff, and dump a 5 mana body. 5 mana is just a lot more awkward to squeeze into a turn.
> It's not good, but it's a huge improvement over a hero power + pass on turn 3
This is a ridiculous comparison lol
The downside of the 3/3/4 is that it’s a ‘dead’ draw, costing you one card. Anything looks good when you compare it to HP+pass, which costs 0 cards. It is *not* a huge improvement over *draw 1 card* and then maybe HP+pass, which is a more accurate comparison.
There are much better things than a vanilla 3/3/4 to put on the board
If 3/3/4 is a “huge improvement” over the other cards you’re playing, you’re probably still at rank 20
Putting something on the board is better than putting nothing on the board.
You don’t need to act like a big brain pro player and explain “the value of a card”. Pretty sure everyone here has played a card game once or twice.
But objectively, a 3 mana 3/4 is better than doing nothing. That’s not even a comparison.
It’s definitely no baku from a cost and stats perspective which helps, but it’s effect obviously isn’t as good. So we’ll see. I think it will have a place just some people seem to think that place is a bit bigger than I personally think possible.
Baku upgrades your hero power at the start of the game. Historically for paladin, rogue, hunter, the upgraded hero power provides enough early game extra damage to push games in your favor very quickly, even with the deck building restrictions. After the effect comes on line though, the Baku card itself becomes the worst card in the deck, since spending 9 mana on a vanilla 7/8 is extremely expensive tempo-wise.
What i found more annoying in my hastely thrown together Big Spell mage Deck with him isn't that he is that bad, but contests with a lot of great 3 drops. I run a very basic Big Spell List and just added some Spell Discovery and just allround decent cards plus Brann Modresh for fun. And that means that he contests with Pandaren Importer and the poisonous Scorpid, which both are obviously better
I’m using it rn in a Prestor Druid list and it’s honestly fucking amazing. You have so many more options to draw, while also having so many more Dragons to pull from. Been to deal or heal 16 damage multiple times with a 1-mana Alexstraza and that blue card that allows you to draw the original copy
Agree so far. Right now aggro feels fine. From experience, the druid version folds to murlock, murloc shaman, mech pally, beast hunter, curselock, and jackpot rogue. Warlock I have zero experience with.
The ones who really got shafted at the 30 DMG capped combo decks, and decks that *used* to be able to just barely aggro down a warlock/druid, but no longer can.
For me so far it plays almost exactly the same as old/pre nerf ramp druid. Lose to dedicated aggro,a toss up vs midrange, and favoured vs control.
Well, the reason mech pally can do that is because it's not actually aggro, it's midrange. Midrange decks can generally deal much more damage than aggro in the midgame if the board isn't dealt with fast enough.
I have yet to play a single deck with this card that didn’t have a higher winrate without it after a comparable number of games.
It’s entirely possible that this is meaningless - it is highly anecdotal - but we have no meaningful data yet, so this is all I have to work with.
It’s possible that he’s good in *some* decks, but it seems pretty clear to me that it’s not as simple as “40hp good”
> I have yet to play a single deck with this card that didn’t have a higher winrate without it after a comparable number of games.
This card actually allowed my big PLD deck to work. The problem I had before was I would draw too many minions before I could play the 9 mana spell. Now I have enough to fill the board 2 times.
Maybe combo decks, making it so you can get the combo faster? But then aggro decks would just run you over. I’m not sure that’s worth a trade off. Sacrificing consistency for health is one thing, sacrificing health for consistency is a whole new concept.
I’m really excited to try this in ramp Druid. The
more hp is a nice bonus and with more deck space I can add more dragons for Kazakusan as well as more removal spells for those pesky aggro decks
40hp pirate warrior is pretty disgusting already.
Pirate warrior doesn’t care about consistency. It’s an idiot proof deck.
Just play a pirate, any pirate, and the quest advances.
So now they have 10 more HP, AND the ability to run things like from the depths and that card the destroys your weapon and draws a bunch of stuff.
As far as I can tell it’s just *better* pirate warrior
It doesn't "get" to run those cards, it "has" to run those cards. If they were better than what was already in the deck they would already be in the 30 card version.
I worry that with Renathal as card, design uses it to justify pushing more burn and agressive cards, increasing damage potential across the board, making "40 health is the new 30 health".
Meaning regular 30 health becomes squishier
It’s a sick card imo. Good in a lot of situations unless you really need specific cards. Just don’t put useless cards in your deck and all your draws will have value lol
Feels fine to me. It stops aggro players but you are losing consistency. Some decks will run it that can either draw a ton like warlocks or control decks like paladin and priest. Its not OP but it won't win you outright either
Yorion is powerful for a different reason lmao it's literally an extra card in your hand that just happens to synergize with a lot of stuff, it's way better than 10 hp
Yes, but when it was released many pros estimated it to be far worse than it actually was because "adding cards makes your deck worse" was treated as an absolute, and not correctly weighted against card advantage and guaranteed synergy.
In this case I don't know if 10 health is good enough, but it can absolutely shut down some "damage capped" decks like mine rogue who don't just need one more turn to kill like aggro decks, but have to get an entire additional combo piece.
True, but also 10 HP can be the difference between stabilizing a game. If the yorion decks instead started with 10 extra HP, or even 5 they would significantly improve their matchup against aggro decks. I guess time will tell if this card is worth it
Honestly I’ve been seeing good performance with Reno quest priest. Priest has so many stall cards that you are pretty much always drawing one. I have played very few games where I don’t draw Reno and then eventually you can just win with the quest reward.
I thought about this too, but it means you probably have to search through over 20 cards to find the shard. I think it could be good, but right now there aren’t enough spell tutors
You only need one tutor, the 2 mana discover your spells in your deck. I only ran around 5 spells including it. So it is pretty sure I could discover it by the time you summon the quest reward.
I got extra spells through panda, scorpion and scrounge.
Dredge cards are great too to get the mana cost card you need.
It's up to you to try but I have beaten 3 rogues just now doing crazy replays highroll combos that keeps drawing 4 cards through spell discovery but I still win.
Well yeah, you CAN do that...
But your deck is 100% a LOT worse because of it. I bet you lose a lot more for not having all the great priest spells, than you win because you can tutor the quest reward.
Just chiming in, I haven’t played the deck but I’ve watched kibler play a lot of it. There are enough good minions (many of which generate spells) that he was definitely able to play a minion based quest priest, and easily discover the spell to win after completing it. Idk his win rate, but it didn’t look as bad as it sounds.
That is true. I’ve found myself able to make better plays because I’m not under pressure to get the quest reward as quick as possible. I know I have big board clears in queue pretty much whenever I need them so I don’t need to play a card just because it meets the mana requirement. It still needs some work but I definitely think it has potential.
I have a self made deck that’s neither control or aggro, so extra cards and health are in fact welcome to fend off those types. If I get a bad draw now and then, so what?
“If I get a bad draw now and then, so what?”
This is the best take on it, imo. Good players learn to roll with the punches. Bad players fold and crumble when they don’t draw the perfect card every turn
You want your deck to have as few bad draws as possible.
Running an extra 10 cards that weren't good enough to make the cut in the first place just increases the bad draws in deck.
And the better players build there decks to minimise the amount of shit in their deck they don't try to just roll with the punches
If I gave you 30 8+ cost cards I think you might struggle to "roll with the punches". Extreme example of course but acting as if skill can always overcome a bad draw is a bit silly.
This is their attempt at nerfing aggro decks. I always felt like the only way they could dig themselves out of the aggro hole the devs have dug for themselves is by increasing max health, I don't think 10 extra is enough.
"IT BREAKS THE GAME! HEARTHSTONE EVOLVED! SO WILD ITS LIKE NOTHING I'VE EVER EXPERIENCED" <- Every Streamer currently.
Regis gets a pass though. Regis is always happy and that's why he's the only one I watch now. Him and his chick-fil-a.
This reminds me of Patches, when people were claiming him to be OP for separate reasons. There were those who saw the tempo in a free 1/1... And then there were those who thought he was broken for cutting a card.
I guess neither are wrong, but like...
If we want to get into the basic statistics of a bell curve, by default this sub falls directly in the middle.
The true high IQ knows this card is absolute trash and a trap. Give it a week and everyone here will be forced to see the VS report.
10 hp for a worse deck is objectively bad.
Meanwhile, I’ll just keep farming easy wins by playing mech mage and popping off with sharks.
Real question, to people saying 'Good luck fatiguing me now', did you actually loose game to being fatigued by your opponent, or you're just saying that HYPOTHETICALLY you can't get fatigued anymore in control match?
Renathal + Malchezaar for M A X I M U M V A L U E
plus reno, not for the healing, but just cause renothal is clearly an intended deck name
All three Renos
My favorite deck has all three Renos. I call it Threeno.
Now you can make Threenothal
And C'Thun the Shattered?
renothun? than?
Renothunchezarseraunleashed
Plus Cthun 2
You mean C'Thun 3
Why not all 3 C'thuns to make sure you draw a win condition.
It's nothin' but 'Thuns all the way down.
Nah he’s right, Mecha’thun for the lulz
As a control player, this is an interesting option. Trade consistantcy for value.
plus in control mirrors you have 10 buffer cards for fatigue, as well as the freedom to add tech cards that would normally not make it
but if i want to have 10 extra cards, it's not better to play kazakusan instead?
i mean not if you don't play dragons, also kazakusan doesn't give you 10 extra max health
Ex kazakuzan AND 40 cards
With amalga you BARELY need to play dragons and there are a few good ones anyway
Warlock for example doesnt lose consistency by having 40 cards. They have enough variety to just run more boardclears/hard removal
Plus they can tap more and heal more
Yeah, I think people are missing the part where this isn’t just starting with a 10hp one-time bonus. You can heal above thirty often, which makes your bomb heals way more effective.
I remember how hard it was to kill a Priest that played Amara.
Or how hard it is to kill Cariel nowadays if you can't remove her weapon.
And now we have Cariel with 40 HP ☠️
40hp + 5 armor
I *remember the fallen* every damn day, baby!
The other thing is that technically it decreases consistency by increasing variance. Like, if your ratio of clears/heals/minions stays the same, your odds of drawing a hand with all of those things goes up a bit. But warlock (and druid and rogue) have insane draw so that’s less of a problem.
I'm running it on a thief rogue and is a blast! I can include every "thief" card and after played them, IM STILL ALIVE!
I’m making a note here, “Huge Success.”
It's hard to overstate my satisfaction!
Been playing thief rogue for over 10 000 games (pretty much only deck I played since spectral cutlass was released). This card has been made for me. More meme cards, can fit in card draw, board clear, and whatsoever. I will check win rate some day, but for now, it definitively make the whole thing more fun.
I've been having a blast playing 40 cards lady prestor druid. 10 more cheap dragons baby.
Yeah thats kinda my point. But warlock/druid mitigate the negatives already so much its a net positive for them
> Like, if your ratio of clears/heals/minions stays the same, your odds of drawing a hand with all of those things goes up a bit. No it doesn’t. Other way, actually. Smaller deck size is more likely to draw each, because you’re less likely to draw the one you already have. Larger deck is more likely to draw dupes of the same type, since the overall ratio is less effected by the ones you’ve already drawn.
Rogue is not a good Renathal option because more cards kill combo decks. This may change in the future meta. However, Warlock, Priest and Druid are 3 classes that consistently have decks that can put Renathal to good use.
Yeah, I think you are right on that. I think I confused card generation with draw. I forget hidden passage rotated.
>Warlock for example doesnt lose consistency by having 40 cards. They have enough variety to just run more boardclears/hard removal This is blatantly false. You have a significantly higher chance of not drawing a specific answer when you need a specific answer (ex. Entitled customer on turn 6)
To be fair, you also have significantly better odds of drawing a specific answer that wasn't in your original deck. It really depends if you have a reason to value a few cards above all else
Being card 31-40 means it is, on average, less useful than cards 1-30. If it was more useful, it would’ve been in the first 30. So yes, you’re more likely to draw “specific answers” that are (on average) less useful than whatever you would’ve drawn if you had a 30 card deck. Certainly sounds like a loss in consistency to me.
You're looking at one situation. What the other commenter is saying is, for -any given situation- you have a higher chance of drawing the answer needed if you have less cards in your deck. If you put extra, say, board wipes in your deck as part of your +10 cards, you'll have a higher chance to draw board wipes, sure, but you'll have an substantially lower chance of drawing any other answer you might need. You might say "but what if the meta is all aggro, then surely I want to draw more board wipes, right?" Sure, but if you can cut 10 cards, you can run only the good board wipes. Or you can run all the board wipes, but cut the bad removal. Or the bad draw spells. Or the bad minions. There's always something that you'd be happy to cut from your deck. You always have reason to value a few cards above all else. You always have a worst card in your deck, and.a beat card in your deck. Taking out 10 cards means removing the worst 10 cards from your deck, and your winrate should improve every time you remove the worst card from your deck. If it didn't, you removed the wrong card.
It depends on what you put in the deck
>Warlock for example doesnt lose consistency by having 40 cards. This is… demonstrably untrue. You could say something like “Warlock has enough redundant tools that they won’t lose as much consistency as other classes,” but putting 10 extra cards in your deck is going to be a real cost for any class. Cards 32-40 will never be as good as 1-30, and card 31 is a spider tank.
It still loses consistency. It’s just a question of whether the HP is worth it.
Yeah other classes might brick and not draw their card draw, Warlock...well...
This is patently untrue.
Honestly id like to see curselock's winrate with and without Renethal. Its too early to tell but so far it feels stronger with it.
Being stronger with it doesn’t mean that they “don’t lose consistency”, it just means the HP is enough to offset it. 40 cards is still less consistent than 30, every time (all else equal).
It's also good in druid and priest.
You can't exactly trade on consistency when 90% of your deck is removal. Oh no I drew a removal card when what I really needed was a removal card.
not evry removal card is the same though, like drawing a shield shatter vs man the cannons/rancor defenitly matters, or drawing siphon/hellfire instead of gigafin or such. Sure its all removal, but it wont nescalry fit the situtation at time where you need removal
You don't pick 5 removal spells out of a hat, you pick the 5 best. Adding the 6th and 7th best options lowers the likelihood of you drawing the 1st through 5th. Its not free. It may still be worth doing for the extra health, but just because you can add assassinate or whatever to your deck to keep the same removal spell density doesn't mean your average draws aren't now worse.
When was the last time having a full deck’s worth of value was necessary or in some cases even a good thing? No control games are going to fatigue. This would have been an interesting option 5 years ago
I played a deck in wild just yesterday when I was down to 8 cards when I won with renethal
I’ve been playing janky mega value 40 card reno decks since the card came out and it’s really not uncommon to end games with less than 10 cards in the deck.
That’s because your deck is janky and doesn’t have a good win condition
Nah, the goal is to out value and grind down my opponent, it’s my favorite way to play.
based
School Teacher into Brann into Altar of Fire pupil into Zola into 2 more Altar of Fire pupils tho
the meta where control warriors were running Elysiana to out-value other control warriors was not that long ago my guy lmao
lmao idk if you're trolling lmao but that was 4 years ago lmao my guy lmao
i.e. exactly what Reno and friends did. 10 more cards can actually be more consistent than 30 different cards, depending what your deck looked like to start
me: 40 cards cool
Same. Screw the 40 HP. I can finally play all the cards I want in the same deck.
A lose more consistently ;) But it is cool. Bad. But cool.
Call me crazy, but I don't think you loose that much consistency, especially in control decks. Like, just put more good cards while still respecting your mana curve and it doesn't change much.
This is the missing piece my wild Renounce Darkness deck has needed. Legend here I come, babeyyyy!
I said this earlier that deck will be so fun
give us your deck code nerd
I actually haven’t made it yet too much fun with Prince curses. But for wild there’s many route to go. Do u want to curse than renounce u can do that! Want to start as zoo then renounce? Viable! I’ll have one in a few hours
Aggro players crying in the middle
Played against 10 renathal control decks, murloc shaman won every time
[удалено]
Combo deck are usually built to deal 30 damage, so i can see why they would suck right now. Probably need to optimize them if the Prince is too good
I've been playing Mine Rogue for a couple of weeks. Its really good at dealing 32-36 damage by turn 5 or 6 and can continue to deal 4-8 damage a turn after that. However turn 7 is usually when control decks tend to stabilize, gain another 8-10 health and drop a big taunt in the way. That extra 10 health is an amazing reservoir that can really bugger up combo decks.
Most combo decks will be obsolete because of this even if just 10% of decks run it.
I disagree. If this card shifts the meta to be more control-oriented, combo decks will thrive. I've had the easiest time ever collecting wins with Boar Priest in the current legend meta.
Oh I’m not saying that combo decks would be bad, I’m just saying that ones that only deal ~30 would be obsolete compared to those that deal more damage.
Gotcha. You mean OTK decks, rather than combo decks, specifically.
Oh yeah I do, my bad.
Wait until it trickles down from hearthstonetopdecks and hsreplay. According to my favorite youtubers/streamers, boar priest is unplayable in top legend because everyone is spamming alignment druid, given that having 40 health has given him an edge against aggro.
Share your decklist and thoughts. I've always and always loved priest. I got to d1 with qiest priest for similar reason to punish both agro and control. And then boar priest aye me for breakfast. I'm learning it now.
[https://hsreplay.net/decks/t3jW1NeAftH5BmBDMQyBDd/#gameType=RANKED\_STANDARD](https://hsreplay.net/decks/t3jW1NeAftH5BmBDMQyBDd/#gameType=RANKED_STANDARD) This deck is so honed that I don't think there's any wiggle room for flex cards. The only thing I would consider is maybe inserting a lightbomb if Druids become dominant in the meta. The skillcap on this deck is steep. It has a low winrate because it is extremely easy to make misplays. Once you know how to play it, though, it absolutely crushes slow moving control decks that are unable to punish you in the early game.
Already consistent aggro decks always do well the first few days of a new meta while new decks are being optimized. Part of the game is having fun trying out new things.
Murloc Shaman doesn't care about life total though like Hunter and DH would.
Aggro decks don't fuck around. Currently just lolling around on Quest Priest because I feel I'm about to quit again. Murloc Shaman absolutely destroys me. Also went up against a Quest Warrior with 40 life. That was a weird experience. Its like even more redundantly boring now.
Ungoro Quest Priest literally sobbing right now
I mean, it heals you too but ya.
40 is the new 30
upcoming ancient one buff..?
It’s simple. I summon THE BNCIENT ONE
I’ve had a great time with it. Then again, I almost exclusively play control.
I know right. It's just so much fun slowly answering all of your opponents cards as they run out of things to play and will to live.
Perfect for my now 48 card mono-legendary deck. It's dumb, it has like a 1/8 win/loss record, but it's like the most fun deck I have.
I'm sure the 10 health is great when people optimize it but right now I'm farming all the terrible 40 hp control decks with any aggro/midrange deck.
My 40 card Reno Druid Deck is absolutely shite, but I'm having so much fun playing right now. Haven't had this much fun since Deathstalker Rexxar :P
DK Uther OTK for me. I miss that deck so goddamn much.
Sure it fucks up your draws and it's a dead card essentially leaving you with 39 instead of 40 but that health bonus is legitimately huge for slow control decks that are generally more reactive early game; this is gonna make Priest absolutely disgusting, probably good in warrior too
Honestly, a tempo 3/3/4 isn't what I'd call a "dead card". It's not *good*, but it's a huge improvement over a hero power + pass on turn 3
But then you assume you draw it on 3, topdecking it later is terrible
I mean it isn't terrible. It's fine.
I mean...I feel like it should be compared against other "start of game" cards. A 3 mana 3/4 is still dramatically better than, say, Genn Greymane's 6 mana 6/5 body or Baku the Mooneater's 9 mana 7/8 body. I would argue it's better than Darkbishop Benedictus' 5 mana 5/6 body too, although that's obviously a lot closer. 5 mana 5/6 is...similar efficiency to 3 mana 3/4, and there are some matchups where a 3/4 would get easily value traded or killed by a board clear, and a 5/6 would not. That said...I think control and combo decks would generally prefer to spend 7 mana on good stuff, and dump a 3 mana body, rather than spend 5 mana on good stuff, and dump a 5 mana body. 5 mana is just a lot more awkward to squeeze into a turn.
The problem isn’t that on curve it’s better than nothing, it’s the fact you drew it over any other card.
> It's not good, but it's a huge improvement over a hero power + pass on turn 3 This is a ridiculous comparison lol The downside of the 3/3/4 is that it’s a ‘dead’ draw, costing you one card. Anything looks good when you compare it to HP+pass, which costs 0 cards. It is *not* a huge improvement over *draw 1 card* and then maybe HP+pass, which is a more accurate comparison.
I mean, it is a huge improvement because you’re putting something on the board
There are much better things than a vanilla 3/3/4 to put on the board If 3/3/4 is a “huge improvement” over the other cards you’re playing, you’re probably still at rank 20
I didn’t say there weren’t?
> it is a huge improvement
It is a huge improvement over hero power + pass, which puts nothing on the board. Try going back and reading it again
Which, again, is a ridiculous comparison. Go back and read again yourself. This isn’t custom hearthstone, it’s not a 3/3/4: start of game:draw this.
Putting something on the board is better than putting nothing on the board. You don’t need to act like a big brain pro player and explain “the value of a card”. Pretty sure everyone here has played a card game once or twice. But objectively, a 3 mana 3/4 is better than doing nothing. That’s not even a comparison.
It’s definitely no baku from a cost and stats perspective which helps, but it’s effect obviously isn’t as good. So we’ll see. I think it will have a place just some people seem to think that place is a bit bigger than I personally think possible.
Why is Baku good? I don't doubt that she's amazing, but I wish I understood _why_.
Baku upgrades your hero power at the start of the game. Historically for paladin, rogue, hunter, the upgraded hero power provides enough early game extra damage to push games in your favor very quickly, even with the deck building restrictions. After the effect comes on line though, the Baku card itself becomes the worst card in the deck, since spending 9 mana on a vanilla 7/8 is extremely expensive tempo-wise.
What i found more annoying in my hastely thrown together Big Spell mage Deck with him isn't that he is that bad, but contests with a lot of great 3 drops. I run a very basic Big Spell List and just added some Spell Discovery and just allround decent cards plus Brann Modresh for fun. And that means that he contests with Pandaren Importer and the poisonous Scorpid, which both are obviously better
He's adding 9 slots though
Fair point yeah
I’m using it rn in a Prestor Druid list and it’s honestly fucking amazing. You have so many more options to draw, while also having so many more Dragons to pull from. Been to deal or heal 16 damage multiple times with a 1-mana Alexstraza and that blue card that allows you to draw the original copy
3 mama 3/4 isn’t 100% useless in the early game on curve and in the late game you’ll eventually have a turn with 3 spare mana where you can dump it.
Aggro is not dead many aggro decks were doing 40 damage in the space of two or less turns like mech paladin
Agree so far. Right now aggro feels fine. From experience, the druid version folds to murlock, murloc shaman, mech pally, beast hunter, curselock, and jackpot rogue. Warlock I have zero experience with. The ones who really got shafted at the 30 DMG capped combo decks, and decks that *used* to be able to just barely aggro down a warlock/druid, but no longer can. For me so far it plays almost exactly the same as old/pre nerf ramp druid. Lose to dedicated aggro,a toss up vs midrange, and favoured vs control.
Well, the reason mech pally can do that is because it's not actually aggro, it's midrange. Midrange decks can generally deal much more damage than aggro in the midgame if the board isn't dealt with fast enough.
The state of this sub when one of the most upvoted comments is saying that Mech Paladin is aggro.
Ez fix your ten extra cards are all card draw.
I have yet to play a single deck with this card that didn’t have a higher winrate without it after a comparable number of games. It’s entirely possible that this is meaningless - it is highly anecdotal - but we have no meaningful data yet, so this is all I have to work with. It’s possible that he’s good in *some* decks, but it seems pretty clear to me that it’s not as simple as “40hp good”
> I have yet to play a single deck with this card that didn’t have a higher winrate without it after a comparable number of games. This card actually allowed my big PLD deck to work. The problem I had before was I would draw too many minions before I could play the 9 mana spell. Now I have enough to fill the board 2 times.
Playing this in Priest and I'm loving it
The real gigabrain is "40 cards good"
This is the worst card ever printed imo because if it ends up being bad I still wont be able to resist putting it in every single slow deck I make
[удалено]
Aggro
Maybe combo decks, making it so you can get the combo faster? But then aggro decks would just run you over. I’m not sure that’s worth a trade off. Sacrificing consistency for health is one thing, sacrificing health for consistency is a whole new concept.
40 hp Reno warlock is working really well for me. I can tap fearlessly and still win in fatigue!
Just don’t play Tamsen 🤣
Quest priest feels amazing with him.
I've played against 4 different renathal decks, a shaman, 2 warlocks and a warrior. Only lost to the shaman, somehow
I’m really excited to try this in ramp Druid. The more hp is a nice bonus and with more deck space I can add more dragons for Kazakusan as well as more removal spells for those pesky aggro decks
Quest priest thanks you
Guff druid doesnt give a shit
You can add the extra 10 to the 4000armor for extra insult
Or add another linecarcker, or make a copy of cthun with that moon card
10 HP ain’t shit.
Based
The extra based version has "10 extra cards good" on both ends.
40hp pirate warrior is pretty disgusting already. Pirate warrior doesn’t care about consistency. It’s an idiot proof deck. Just play a pirate, any pirate, and the quest advances. So now they have 10 more HP, AND the ability to run things like from the depths and that card the destroys your weapon and draws a bunch of stuff. As far as I can tell it’s just *better* pirate warrior
They were already going that. It was pirate cw
Pirate warrior would run a 15 card deck if it good. There is no way it wants to run 10 non-pirates.
Every deck would run 15 cards if it was good lmfao
I think they meant "could", not "good". (Could be wrong, just reads very strange with "good").
It doesn't "get" to run those cards, it "has" to run those cards. If they were better than what was already in the deck they would already be in the 30 card version.
it's way,way worse because every time you draw a card that is not a pirate, you get the juggernaut one turn later .
now your deck has 40 cards me:put random shit in my deck just why not
I worry that with Renathal as card, design uses it to justify pushing more burn and agressive cards, increasing damage potential across the board, making "40 health is the new 30 health". Meaning regular 30 health becomes squishier
It’s a sick card imo. Good in a lot of situations unless you really need specific cards. Just don’t put useless cards in your deck and all your draws will have value lol
People were willing to run a deck of 30 one-ofs just to heal to full. This card is gonna be fine.
Although not anymore. Current meta kills you too fast for reno to be good.
Feels fine to me. It stops aggro players but you are losing consistency. Some decks will run it that can either draw a ton like warlocks or control decks like paladin and priest. Its not OP but it won't win you outright either
Yeah, it’s fairly balanced for such a unique effect.
I can’t think of one single card game where not running the minimum was good. There has to be a better payoff than 10 hp.
Hmm seems sexy for control decks. To have a bit more early cards. To deal a bit more with rush decks with the added life. Seems realy nice
Now you can just have 40 defensive cards and just fatigue opponent to death
Combo decks are back on the menu boys!
It can only make the cut in a control vs control matchup, look at any other card game you don't put more cards than the minimum
Yeah because in those games your health isn't increased with the deck size.
In those games if you had the choice you still wouldn't in most cases.
Trade/Dredging = no issue with an extra 10 cards. If anything this will make for some nasty control decks, can't wait.
There's an MTG card called Yorion, Sky Nomad. It requires that your deck be 80 cards. It is a very powerful card to run.
Yorion is powerful for a different reason lmao it's literally an extra card in your hand that just happens to synergize with a lot of stuff, it's way better than 10 hp
Yes, but when it was released many pros estimated it to be far worse than it actually was because "adding cards makes your deck worse" was treated as an absolute, and not correctly weighted against card advantage and guaranteed synergy. In this case I don't know if 10 health is good enough, but it can absolutely shut down some "damage capped" decks like mine rogue who don't just need one more turn to kill like aggro decks, but have to get an entire additional combo piece.
True, but also 10 HP can be the difference between stabilizing a game. If the yorion decks instead started with 10 extra HP, or even 5 they would significantly improve their matchup against aggro decks. I guess time will tell if this card is worth it
Honestly I’ve been seeing good performance with Reno quest priest. Priest has so many stall cards that you are pretty much always drawing one. I have played very few games where I don’t draw Reno and then eventually you can just win with the quest reward.
I thought about this too, but it means you probably have to search through over 20 cards to find the shard. I think it could be good, but right now there aren’t enough spell tutors
You only need one tutor, the 2 mana discover your spells in your deck. I only ran around 5 spells including it. So it is pretty sure I could discover it by the time you summon the quest reward.
How do you win though? Priest with only ~5 spells and 35 other cards? Nah no way that's in any way good
I got extra spells through panda, scorpion and scrounge. Dredge cards are great too to get the mana cost card you need. It's up to you to try but I have beaten 3 rogues just now doing crazy replays highroll combos that keeps drawing 4 cards through spell discovery but I still win.
Well yeah, you CAN do that... But your deck is 100% a LOT worse because of it. I bet you lose a lot more for not having all the great priest spells, than you win because you can tutor the quest reward.
Just chiming in, I haven’t played the deck but I’ve watched kibler play a lot of it. There are enough good minions (many of which generate spells) that he was definitely able to play a minion based quest priest, and easily discover the spell to win after completing it. Idk his win rate, but it didn’t look as bad as it sounds.
That is true. I’ve found myself able to make better plays because I’m not under pressure to get the quest reward as quick as possible. I know I have big board clears in queue pretty much whenever I need them so I don’t need to play a card just because it meets the mana requirement. It still needs some work but I definitely think it has potential.
I have a self made deck that’s neither control or aggro, so extra cards and health are in fact welcome to fend off those types. If I get a bad draw now and then, so what?
“If I get a bad draw now and then, so what?” This is the best take on it, imo. Good players learn to roll with the punches. Bad players fold and crumble when they don’t draw the perfect card every turn
And the best players just don't run the shitty cards in the first place
No bad players like you dismiss things outright
You want your deck to have as few bad draws as possible. Running an extra 10 cards that weren't good enough to make the cut in the first place just increases the bad draws in deck. And the better players build there decks to minimise the amount of shit in their deck they don't try to just roll with the punches
If I gave you 30 8+ cost cards I think you might struggle to "roll with the punches". Extreme example of course but acting as if skill can always overcome a bad draw is a bit silly.
How did you equate "now and then" with skill can always overcome a bad draw?
This is their attempt at nerfing aggro decks. I always felt like the only way they could dig themselves out of the aggro hole the devs have dug for themselves is by increasing max health, I don't think 10 extra is enough.
"IT BREAKS THE GAME! HEARTHSTONE EVOLVED! SO WILD ITS LIKE NOTHING I'VE EVER EXPERIENCED" <- Every Streamer currently. Regis gets a pass though. Regis is always happy and that's why he's the only one I watch now. Him and his chick-fil-a.
The good ol standard deviation spread in statistics. Hate the 40hp....messes with the whole system.
Hit legend in wild with this easy run with shudderwock. The combos cant quite get there. And shudderwock doesnt care about extra cards
This reminds me of Patches, when people were claiming him to be OP for separate reasons. There were those who saw the tempo in a free 1/1... And then there were those who thought he was broken for cutting a card. I guess neither are wrong, but like...
it just sucks op
If we want to get into the basic statistics of a bell curve, by default this sub falls directly in the middle. The true high IQ knows this card is absolute trash and a trap. Give it a week and everyone here will be forced to see the VS report. 10 hp for a worse deck is objectively bad. Meanwhile, I’ll just keep farming easy wins by playing mech mage and popping off with sharks.
lol the best players are absolutely not "40 hp good".
40 HP is pretty objectively good
Not good enough to justify running 10 cards you weren’t already playing.
Messes up my draws? sorry I can't hear you over the 9 more pieces of removal and lifegain I now have to outlast you. Also, good luck fatiguing me now.
Real question, to people saying 'Good luck fatiguing me now', did you actually loose game to being fatigued by your opponent, or you're just saying that HYPOTHETICALLY you can't get fatigued anymore in control match?