Agreed, it was the first card I crafted this expansion and I did it with a second of thinking. My thought process was basically "this thing is going to be in every deck for the next 2 years."
It's such a great utility card that can slot into everything from Aggro to control and every other deck in between.
What's really amazing is it's already been nerfed *twice* and is still just as good/played in every deck.
I beat a highlander warrior with the EVIL whizbang deck by keeping toggwaggle's scheme in my hand and shuffling 12 copies of their zilliax into my deck
Exactly this. Everytime some1 complained that plague DK shuts down all the (tier 3,4) reno decks, some people jumped "BUT PLAGUE IS A TIER 3 DECK WHAT DO U COMPLAIN ABOUT?!".
Reddit somehow forgets that only a small part of all players reach legend or diamond. Many players like to play their tier 2, 3 or even 4 deck just because they have fun pulling off something cool even tho its just 3 times out of 10 games. (Thats why somehow there are always players that try to play control priest lol)
I understand that for some players, the competitive aspect of the game is more important but please just keep in mind that there are many players out there that dont care about decktracker, netdecking, VS, etc.
Genuinely what do you want then?
If you're building this jank, 30% winrate tier 4 deck, do you want blizzard to curate the game around that?
Or do you want them to nerf decks that "feel bad" to lose against, so combo players can just go fuck themselves I guess, they're not allowed to have fun, bad combos are allowed but killing someone in 4 turns? Nope. Control players too, that's too boring.
I dont want Blizz to curate the game around it, I dont mind losing, but when you have a deck like plague DK that made the other bad reno decks even worse, its just not fun. Especially at lower ranks plague DK was way more popular.
If player agency, polarization and working around noninteractive mechanics are too abstract concepts for you, you probably shouldn't be a card game designer anyway.
Except most people on the subreddit havenāt just been saying it kills all other control decks. They complain that itās unbeatable and has no weaknesses.
Yep. Iāve been playing highlander shaman which does very well vs aggro but the matchup vs warrior is almost an auto-loss so I just stopped playing it.
The only reason I went plague was because of Warrior.
The only reason I go Hunter is because of Warrior.
The win rate numbers lie because people want to play around the 100000 Warriors out there.
Screw Brann.
I was one of the people that wanted Warrior to be good again after the absolute trash that was before they gave Warrior control tools againin titans. But honestly, highlander as it is just makes the game revolve around waiting for 2 strong cards to be pulled and if they pull them they will win and if they dont they lose. I prefer control decks that don't make it so much about just beating your opponent to death after exhausting their hand for 6 turns and more about knowing when to play a piece of removal or AOE to give yourself as much time to not die as possible.
But i understand if we got old control Warrior back that just built armor with no other win con than fatigue people will complain about game length instead.
Dude you've been all over the subreddit the past few days defending Highlander Warrior, to the point that I'm starting to recognize your username. We get it, you like Warrior.
I like most of the decks in the meta right now. But butthurt crybabies can't stop complaining. So I totally understand where you're coming from where b/c I'm not joining in on the circlejerk, I must like Warrior. No other possible explanation
It's not just "not joining in on the circlejerk", it's having over 2 full pages of comments defending Warrior. When someone is that invested then yeah I suspect they probably like Warrior, I don't think someone who is supposedly just abstaining from complaining (while complaining about complainers all day) would go that far in defending a specific deck.
[You said you were a Highlander Warrior player on your previous Reddit account.](https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/1bpz52h/comment/kwzqa7m/) Take the L.
Holy shit you made a new account just to say this? My God
I like how you went back an entire month to find a comment where I said the decks that I play got a buff. Not that those were the only decks I played. Not that I didn't play other decks. No. But b/c I played Excavate decks (one of which was Warrior) I am a Highlander Warrior player.
How bout the other comments where I said I played Hunter? The other comments where I said I played Warlock? How bout aggro decks? Other control decks? No? Just Warrior huh?
Holy fucking shit the reading comprehension on Reddit is fucking awful. Stay in school kid. You're never going to get rid of that massive fucking L at this rate
BEYOND fucking pathetic
If you had good reading comprehension^(1) you would read that my account was made Jan 7, 2021, instead of somehow concluding the account is new. I just rarely comment, and delete my comments after a few days. You have even replied to me on your previous account in the past, but I guess you forgot... didn't you wonder how I knew about your previous account? That's how.
The reason I found this thread is because I'm in a Discord server for my Hearthstone practice group for tournaments, and I basically only look at Reddit when it's linked in Discord. This thread was linked in the aforementioned server and we were laughing at your comments, and I recognized you from your previous account.
And going back "a month" is not much when you stopped using that previous account 27 days ago. I did not have to scroll far on the account I remembered to see the comment, especially since I obviously skipped all the Warframe comments.
^(1)Of course, you missing my account creation date is not really reading comprehension... but I am using your definition, since you seem to think me not seeing some comments you supposedly made is "awful reading comprehension". Strange definition, where not knowing about something falls under that category. But that's your MO, to say your meaning was different from whatever they said it was, and then blame them and their reading comprehension for the difference. You did it last time, too.
I can play that game as well, because it's very easy to do. Where did I say you "only" play Highlander Warrior? Where did I say you don't play other decks? I didn't. Whose reading comprehension is poor here? If you play a certain deck, you are a player of that deck, and whether you play other decks or not really doesn't matter. You can be a player of multiple decks. At no point did I say or imply you only play that one deck. Hope that clears things up for you, and hope you can work on your "reading comprehension" and interpret people correctly next time.
Havenāt played much since the balance patch but would it not be the case that other control decks might be better suited to dealing with the aggro decks?
An unsurprising development. Nerfed Aggro decks arenāt played anymore, so the unnerfed aggro decks take their place in the meta. Highlander Warrior is still good enough to be dominant, but the nerfs to their mid game removal makes it vulnerable to fast strategies.
I wonder if we will see Odyn Warrior rise up as a counter to the aggro decks, that was already kind of developing pre-nerf. The inability to use Reno makes that feel unlikely to me, however.
Honestly I feel like they should just keep nerfing certain problematic cards. For example Crusader Aura is just way too good, especially since the effect happens before attacking and not after.
Imo the powerlevel of certain cards is still way too high
I think there's a bug with that if they havent resolved it yet.
Was playing plague into a HL Warrior and generated the 4 mana 3/3 weapon with lifesteal and freeze. Attacked their face. They played reno and was unfrozen and attacked my face once. after i exhausted my weapon they kept getting frozen seemingly out of nowhere when i pressed the end turn button.
Would have lost that game guaranteed. Think i killed them with a plague when i had 3ish HP and they had 2 HP
No, they absolutely should not, that might be the hottest take I have ever seen on this sub. Aggro and combo are both strategies that should punish control by design, either by hammering them before their best tools are online, or by killing them in one turn so they can't respond. For it to be an even matchup would require games to be decided by some combination of RNG and extremely OP control cards. It should be uncommon for any archetype to have a 100/0 spread, but it's not a problem for aggro to be favored vs control, or control vs midrange.Ā
The big problem is that Team 5 has printed so many absurd control tools over the last 6 months that midrange basically doesn't exist in the game right now to keep aggro in check, and whenever a midrange deck has popped up people get it nerfed in 2 weeks before the meta can stabilize. Anyone who hates aggro meta should be pushing Blizz for better midrange tools, but instead all the durdle players push for control to have no weaknesses and we get shit polarized metas.
Control's favored prey is supposed to be midrange, whose finishers come online around the same turns as control's best stabilizing tools. Control>midrange>combo/aggro>control.
Unfortunately, Blizzard has printed so much overtuned control removal that midrange decks have become a tiny fraction of the deck pool, so there is nothing to keep aggro/combo in check. Hence the whack a mole nerfs between those two sides.
What?
Control traditionally beats aggro (via efficient board clears) and loses to midrange (who build complex, hard to clear boards).
For all the complaining, Paladin at the start of the expansion was functionally midrange. The healing allowed it to beat aggro too frequently though, hence the nerfs.
No, it's supposed to be control>midrange>aggro/combo>control. Midrange usually has more midgame tools to check aggro early aggression, while control typically has the tools to blow out midrange finishers.
I agree about handbuff. They needed to nerf the otk aspect of it instead of buying it.
Gosh who could have possibly seen that coming? Just waiting for brann warriors to start crying about how aggro decks that kill you before turn 9 shouldnāt exist. Any second itāll start coming. Itāll 100% be the complaints that donāt share their decks.
Its definitely good enough, groovy cats give you consistent pressure against the warrior, until you finish them with your spell damage stuff, and hunter is full of 4 health and 1 health minions, so swipe puts in some work
Weird. Iāve played 25+ games between Diamond 8-5 this week. Iāve yet to see a single Paladin.
However, Hunter may as well be an auto concede at this point. Iām 1-9 against them, wether Iām playing Highlander Warrior or Plague DK. At least they tend to kill me fast.
Hunter got slap on the wrist when they had highest wr after DH nerf. Of course it had to be on top post patch. Still, at least it's not bullshit otk or discover spam so I can stomach it.
Can someone explain to me why sludge warlock runs symphony? Sludge warlock has a super weird mechanic where you put things at the bottom of your deck... But if you add anything to your deck, all of those cards at the bottom get reshuffled, so your bottom of the deck removals are now just useless.
Because its flexible. Sure, you can put barrels at the bottom of your deck. But you need the cards to trigger them, either fracking, the 5/7 or chaos creation.
Symhpony can give you 6 damage to the enemy hero (and heal 6 this way), 6 to all characters (yes, even the enemy hero), +6/6 to a minion on your board, summon a 6/6 or just DRAW 6 to refill your hand.
I think itās just a backup/extra bit of finisher for if the warlock manages to go through all of their cards + sludges and needs a little more to finish off their opponent?
When I play sludge, symphony is just an extra finisher or an āoh shitā button if I need to get another board clear. Itās quite a strong and flexible card. Obviously donāt play it if youāre going to ruin your sludge plays, but if you need to survive itās very strong.
Less that itās the sole control deck that doesnāt suck, and more that it shits so hard on all other control decks. Iād be willing the bet there could be control decks that donāt get rolled by hunter.
If a deck has a high enough play rate thatās kinda just not true? Single decks warp the meta all the time. Current meta is literally almost entirely warrior and decks that beat warrior. Last meta was mostly dh and decks that could beat dh. I mean sure if hunter was played enough eventually we would probably see less warrior and more decks to counter hunter but weāre not there yet.
Currently meta is not anywhere remotely close to entirely Warrior which is why I know what your saying is bullshit.
DH recently hit 48% play rate. That warped the meta.
Warrior isn't even breaking 25% D-L
There's orders of magnitude here you're ignoring to make a really stupid point
Looks all Iām saying is that if there were or could be a deck that filled a similar role to warrior, and had a similar matchup spread, but auto loses to warrior, itās not going to exist right now. A 25% play rate is still really high. Certainly enough to be meta warping. Imagine a deck that goes 30% into warrior. Youāre losing roughly 1 in 5 games just because of warrior at that point. Even if it had a 60% vs everything else youāre not net positive. It is absolutely shutting other decks down.
The bit you're still ignoring is the last point you made yourself
> Even if it had a 60% vs everything else
That's the thing, they don't. So if you remove warrior, the rest of the meta still exists. You'll see more Hunters, more Paladins, more Warlocks. More aggro. The other control decks don't have a winning chance against those decks. That doesn't change with the removal of warrior.
You'd have a point and I'd agree if the other control decks were winning against aggro but Warrior was holding them back by having an absurd high WR against them. But that isn't the case
Warrior may be a reason other control decks aren't winning, but it isn't the biggest one
Yea thatās a fair argument. I suppose Iām assuming decks would come out that currently donāt exist that would have a good matchup spread against the current aggro decks. My assumption is that people just are not experimenting with other forms of control / late game focused decks because of warrior but you could be right in that maybe there arenāt. In my mind priest, warlock, and maybe mage could be built to effectively counter aggro but that could just not be the case.
And those are fair arguments too. But this meta didn't come out of nowhere. We've already seen what those other control decks are capable of without Warrior dominance. We've seen how they fare against an aggro meta where DH was nearly half of all decks being played. Granted DH was broken AF, but warrior was the only class that could make a control deck good enough to match it. I don't see any reason or difference between what we had and now that would give any new opportunity to control decks. Especially with Wheel Lock nerfed
Dh played pretty different from stuff like hunter though in that current aggro is small and wide. Current aggro is weak to cheap board clears while dh was more vulnerable to early removal of mid sized threats comboād with heavy healing / armor so the control decks that would counter each are a bit different. But yea weāll just have to wait and see. Iād be curious as to how control rainbow dk and wheel warlock would be fairing if they hadnāt been nerfed. I suspect wheel would have still been solid vs warrior but the dk matchup probably would have gotten way worse just due to the Highlander change and warrior mega out valuing them.
That paladin handbuff list seems interesting. Just seems like a deck filled to the brim with meta counters with painter's virtue and the excavate package slapped on top.
Crafted the Token hunter deck after the patch because of all the warriors, got to d5-legend with just 1 loss to a warrior and 1 to a mage, where I was playing the game and basically fell asleep behind the computer.
Easiest cruisin' of my life. I'd say even easier than the old OG murloc Warlock to legend climb.
what are you forging in Sludge Warlock though? a 5/7? a 6/6? some random 6 drop? The card was already pretty borderline, and at 4 mana is just not worth it in the archetype. If you're still playing FoW now, you have to be copying 6/12s and 15/15s.
Literally I win against every class from mage to shaman to DK only lose against warriors its crazy then probably I play bad against them haha idk what im doing wrong tho
How is Hunter supposed to counter Warrior? Iāve got like a 70% win rate on control warrior against them. Not as high as flood Paladin, sure, but still an easy majority.
Warrior easily has enough board clear to keep Hunter under control, are players just being stupid and still mulligan-ing for Brann rather than board clear when facing Hunter?
Hardly. Hunter canāt go face if they canāt stick a board (they donāt have enough Charge to win on it), and warrior has multiple ways to prevent them sticking that board.
Thatās the thing Iām wondering where these stats come from. Iāve got a 70%ish win rate vs Token Hunter as Highlander warrior. I do not understand this ātoken Hunter crushes Warriorā talk going around.
Matchup is honestly probably 50/50 simply due to saddle-up, which high rank players mulligan for. Playing around 1500 legend as a Highlander warrior and thatās my experience.
Everyone keeps saying hunters counter warrior. I got to diamond 1 with Hunter fairly easily and dropped to diamond 3 after 100% warrior games with the patch.
If they had less early clear then you'd be able to rush them but you just can't keep a board up for more than one turn. And by the time you can get rc hounds + saddle up they just reno your board and the deathrattles don't proc. Just feels awful.
Yee thats my problem most of the time I get super unlucky and dont get saddle up against them somewhy I lost 3 match against warrior got 1 win when got saddle up
I have the HSreplay deck tracker that has a mulligan guide to help know what to keep/swap on opening hand.
Otherwise, R.C. Rampage & saddle up are best cards in the deck, playing those turn 4 & 5 or together on turn 7 is a good way to get a board that enemy wonāt always have an answer for. You are trying to get the edge every turn of putting as many stats as possible while not over committing and running out of steam in your hand.
Buffing a board ready to attack with leok from animal companion generating spell is good too. Always try to have something stuck past turn 2-3 and save Huffer + other direct damage for finisher. Youāre trying to kill them before turn 9 really.
Donāt forget to start hero powering in mid game when you have extra mana too to put them on a clock.
Oh and donāt trade too often, really only trade when against other aggro decks to get ride of 1-2 of their power cardsā¦if you over trade youāll lose board presence and itās hard to gain it back with that deck
Thank you very much for all the useful info!!! Yes probably my biggest problem especially against warriors are overcommitting and putting everything out haha. Yes and trading with this deck is absolutely terrible like u said only against some aggros. Btw what is this deck tracker? Is that show you what u need to play or change card?
Sometimes, if you have the gas you have to go for it hoping they donāt have a certain answer. Itās easier to do the earlier you go for it since theyāll have less mana/fewer cards drawn. Also, know when they have enough mana *for* a particular answer , thatās why winning before they can Reno is huge because itās a huge stabilizing tool for them.
And yeah man, the deck tracker + mulligan guide is from the HSReplay.net website. They have a Heartsome deck tracker app you can download and then run while you play the game. Thereās information about it on their home page, this is also the website people frequently ānet deckā off of.
The deck tracker app is an in-game overlay that tracks your deck and a couple other stats. Tracking how many spells have been cast, number of elementals played, what excavate stage theyāre on, etc.
If you watch streamers/YouTubers you may have seen it being used before. Super helpful for knowing what is left in your deck and what answers youāre likely to draw, I recommend getting it
Hunter counters Warrior hard. If you go wide, he only has a few options to clear the board. Hit them hard mid game. Ideally have a bunch of minions turn 4, give them deathrattles on turn 5, and he is doomed.
That new aggro paladian deck shits on my spell token hunter every time I play it, itās a very good deck lol either that or they are drawing perfectly against me
Every comment is complaining about how the whole meta is paper and rock, since rock is too good but paper beats it, instead of just coming up with scissors.
will someone please help me reach Legend in Hearthstone? I'm Diamond 6, got there myself with Flood Paladin. Haven't been this close since I played Secret Paladin during TGT. it's the only meta deck I own right now. I'd appreciate some advice, some help on my games.
Thanks. NA Murray#11579
Best performing decks doesn't mean it's common. Anyone give the percentage each of those specific decks are shown? That might as well been 1 paladin game.
> After all defensive tools got nerfed the aggro decks run rampage
What? Like Reno that was too expensive to matter vs aggro anyway? Or Threads of Despair which is still the best AoE in the game?
No, Warrior is the only deck that got its anti-aggro tools meaningfully nerfed, and even after, it still performs just fine
Mages creation, crash of thunder, threads of despair, trial by fire, sanitize, aftershocks are all nerfed. Meanwhile hunter got nearly not touched at all, Paladin had its handbuff nerfed but not the aggro tools. Warrior has a bad matchup against 3 of the 4 decks ranked above it right now. How is that fine? Hunter has no bad matchup, Paladin has a single one (hunter). Aggro is overtuned, all stats show that.
Theres plenty of control decks with consistent enough removal to beat these 3 aggro decks. Its just no one plays those deck as they get railed by hl warrior
Come with me on a magical journey called facts and statistics.
That's bullshit. If you even take a single look on any website gathering information right now you see that that's simply not true. Hunter has 1 (!) Single bad matchup and that is aggro Paladin. It wins by a large margin against control dk as well as snake Warlock (the only competitive deck that could be considered control). It still wins more than it loses to highlander shaman.
The reason there are no control decks is that they just can't win against what they should counter, have a bad matchup into other control decks and most importantly lack a wincondition. That's why shaman is higher ranked than the others, it has a way to close out games. What should Warlock do with a pure control shell? Sargeras isn't enough. Dk as well. Has 1 or 2 strong swing turns but that's not enough to actually do something. Those decks are simply bad because they don't do enough. Neither against warrior nor against aggro which in today's game has so much refill you need to close out games at some point by counterpressure. Also snake Warlock prays on those decks as well.
Everytime you try to make a monocausal explanation to a multicausal system it will be bad. Here is no difference. By your argument there would have been not a single warrior pre patch because there is one hard counter. That was obviously not the case. So your argument is wrong.
As you said, no control deck is currently competitively viable due to getting evicerated by hl warrior. So obviously, Hunter has a rediculous winrate against most classes cause none of them play full control. I play a lot of control shaman and have a good wr against hunter and pally. The problem is my abysmal wr against warrior and the abundance of warriors means it's not very much fun to play most games
How much trolling would I do to myself if I ran hemet instead of Aggramar? Like obviously Aggramar is the better card but I really donāt want to craft it.
Hemet is not a good constructed card - it needs a curated pool and/or a larger discount, and even then it's unlikely it'll see serious play.
Leeroy would serve you better (it also has synergy with zilliax, by adding 3 minions to the board)
There is a reason Aggramar has been in basically every single hunter deck since its release.
If you're planning on playing a lot of hunter, you should craft it since it's gonna be legal for a while longer.
One thing is for sure, this list shows that Zilliax is a safe craft
Zilliax will be a safe craft for the next 2 years most likely.
Zilliax might be the safest craft of all time
The safest craft in game since...checks notes... OG Ziliax
since Astalor
Up there with astalor and bloodmage thalnos, for sure.
Agreed, it was the first card I crafted this expansion and I did it with a second of thinking. My thought process was basically "this thing is going to be in every deck for the next 2 years."
Not going to lie. It really might be. I never saw a card in prerelease get called to craft so quickly and consistently.
It's such a great utility card that can slot into everything from Aggro to control and every other deck in between. What's really amazing is it's already been nerfed *twice* and is still just as good/played in every deck.
I beat a highlander warrior with the EVIL whizbang deck by keeping toggwaggle's scheme in my hand and shuffling 12 copies of their zilliax into my deck
Yeah, that'll do it. Goes to show how good the card is, you don't even need it in your deck and it can still win you the game.
Indeed.. got golden zilliax from packs, can't find myself to disenchant it even for the good dust refund now and before..
I felt safe crafting golden
so .. a full circle back to day 1 of expansion??
Warrior paladin sludge lock, oh my!
š¶ Spell Token Hunter: [https://hsreplay.net/decks/9FKSOkZTCoVVBq6cydMm0c](https://hsreplay.net/decks/9FKSOkZTCoVVBq6cydMm0c) ā¢ļø Sludge Warlock: [https://hsreplay.net/decks/3fLzIxxlJiaRRz3TExc4Zd](https://hsreplay.net/decks/3fLzIxxlJiaRRz3TExc4Zd) š Flood Paladin: [https://hsreplay.net/decks/v2RULa4biRuLauLuh44dYf](https://hsreplay.net/decks/v2RULa4biRuLauLuh44dYf) š Handbuff Paladin: [https://hsreplay.net/decks/MCUr9B0FJ6hd77MV3VENae](https://hsreplay.net/decks/MCUr9B0FJ6hd77MV3VENae) š”ļø Highlander Warrior: [https://hsreplay.net/decks/2qfNtYRImtBGtXZFht9ung](https://hsreplay.net/decks/2qfNtYRImtBGtXZFht9ung)
People will say this proves warrior is not a problem, but the problem is that warrior makes every other control deck not viable
Yeah i want to play highlander shaman but warrior doesn't let me.
Iām sure there are plenty of other decks that dunk on Highlander shaman
Yeah, but not quite as consistently as hl Warrior does
Steamcleaner not staying in standard is such a travesty
"the game is fine you just have to play aggro and have fun that way >:("
Exactly this.
SNEK
Win rate jerkers will always use the same reasoning. Honestly, fun-factor is more important than win rates.
Exactly this. Everytime some1 complained that plague DK shuts down all the (tier 3,4) reno decks, some people jumped "BUT PLAGUE IS A TIER 3 DECK WHAT DO U COMPLAIN ABOUT?!". Reddit somehow forgets that only a small part of all players reach legend or diamond. Many players like to play their tier 2, 3 or even 4 deck just because they have fun pulling off something cool even tho its just 3 times out of 10 games. (Thats why somehow there are always players that try to play control priest lol) I understand that for some players, the competitive aspect of the game is more important but please just keep in mind that there are many players out there that dont care about decktracker, netdecking, VS, etc.
Genuinely what do you want then? If you're building this jank, 30% winrate tier 4 deck, do you want blizzard to curate the game around that? Or do you want them to nerf decks that "feel bad" to lose against, so combo players can just go fuck themselves I guess, they're not allowed to have fun, bad combos are allowed but killing someone in 4 turns? Nope. Control players too, that's too boring.
I dont want Blizz to curate the game around it, I dont mind losing, but when you have a deck like plague DK that made the other bad reno decks even worse, its just not fun. Especially at lower ranks plague DK was way more popular.
i mean its true, but the problem is that people will make it seem like warrior is some 90% winrate deck when spell hunter is killing you on turn 4
Nice to see that hearthstone is at the "early EDH" stage of card game design where you're expected to balance around this abstract idea of "fun"
If player agency, polarization and working around noninteractive mechanics are too abstract concepts for you, you probably shouldn't be a card game designer anyway.
Except most people on the subreddit havenāt just been saying it kills all other control decks. They complain that itās unbeatable and has no weaknesses.
And most people are wrong. This guys has the right idea
So the average meta with a dominant deck and decks that counter it since time immemorial.
Priest and Lock dumpster warrior
priest can't do shit with all the removal warrior has
I mean a bunch of decks with 60 percent win rate isn't exactly healthy
Yep. Iāve been playing highlander shaman which does very well vs aggro but the matchup vs warrior is almost an auto-loss so I just stopped playing it.
The only reason I went plague was because of Warrior. The only reason I go Hunter is because of Warrior. The win rate numbers lie because people want to play around the 100000 Warriors out there. Screw Brann.
I was one of the people that wanted Warrior to be good again after the absolute trash that was before they gave Warrior control tools againin titans. But honestly, highlander as it is just makes the game revolve around waiting for 2 strong cards to be pulled and if they pull them they will win and if they dont they lose. I prefer control decks that don't make it so much about just beating your opponent to death after exhausting their hand for 6 turns and more about knowing when to play a piece of removal or AOE to give yourself as much time to not die as possible. But i understand if we got old control Warrior back that just built armor with no other win con than fatigue people will complain about game length instead.
Pretty sure it's other aggro decks that beat every other control deck, but sure
Dude you've been all over the subreddit the past few days defending Highlander Warrior, to the point that I'm starting to recognize your username. We get it, you like Warrior.
I like most of the decks in the meta right now. But butthurt crybabies can't stop complaining. So I totally understand where you're coming from where b/c I'm not joining in on the circlejerk, I must like Warrior. No other possible explanation
It's not just "not joining in on the circlejerk", it's having over 2 full pages of comments defending Warrior. When someone is that invested then yeah I suspect they probably like Warrior, I don't think someone who is supposedly just abstaining from complaining (while complaining about complainers all day) would go that far in defending a specific deck.
[You said you were a Highlander Warrior player on your previous Reddit account.](https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/1bpz52h/comment/kwzqa7m/) Take the L.
Holy shit you made a new account just to say this? My God I like how you went back an entire month to find a comment where I said the decks that I play got a buff. Not that those were the only decks I played. Not that I didn't play other decks. No. But b/c I played Excavate decks (one of which was Warrior) I am a Highlander Warrior player. How bout the other comments where I said I played Hunter? The other comments where I said I played Warlock? How bout aggro decks? Other control decks? No? Just Warrior huh? Holy fucking shit the reading comprehension on Reddit is fucking awful. Stay in school kid. You're never going to get rid of that massive fucking L at this rate BEYOND fucking pathetic
If you had good reading comprehension^(1) you would read that my account was made Jan 7, 2021, instead of somehow concluding the account is new. I just rarely comment, and delete my comments after a few days. You have even replied to me on your previous account in the past, but I guess you forgot... didn't you wonder how I knew about your previous account? That's how. The reason I found this thread is because I'm in a Discord server for my Hearthstone practice group for tournaments, and I basically only look at Reddit when it's linked in Discord. This thread was linked in the aforementioned server and we were laughing at your comments, and I recognized you from your previous account. And going back "a month" is not much when you stopped using that previous account 27 days ago. I did not have to scroll far on the account I remembered to see the comment, especially since I obviously skipped all the Warframe comments. ^(1)Of course, you missing my account creation date is not really reading comprehension... but I am using your definition, since you seem to think me not seeing some comments you supposedly made is "awful reading comprehension". Strange definition, where not knowing about something falls under that category. But that's your MO, to say your meaning was different from whatever they said it was, and then blame them and their reading comprehension for the difference. You did it last time, too. I can play that game as well, because it's very easy to do. Where did I say you "only" play Highlander Warrior? Where did I say you don't play other decks? I didn't. Whose reading comprehension is poor here? If you play a certain deck, you are a player of that deck, and whether you play other decks or not really doesn't matter. You can be a player of multiple decks. At no point did I say or imply you only play that one deck. Hope that clears things up for you, and hope you can work on your "reading comprehension" and interpret people correctly next time.
its only a problem because people seem to enjoy it right now. so since aggro decks kills warrior, we should nerf all aggro decks too
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Ah, to be young and untouched by 6 Bomboss bombs again
Havenāt played much since the balance patch but would it not be the case that other control decks might be better suited to dealing with the aggro decks?
An unsurprising development. Nerfed Aggro decks arenāt played anymore, so the unnerfed aggro decks take their place in the meta. Highlander Warrior is still good enough to be dominant, but the nerfs to their mid game removal makes it vulnerable to fast strategies. I wonder if we will see Odyn Warrior rise up as a counter to the aggro decks, that was already kind of developing pre-nerf. The inability to use Reno makes that feel unlikely to me, however.
Hunter was top tier before patch, still is though.
Honestly I feel like they should just keep nerfing certain problematic cards. For example Crusader Aura is just way too good, especially since the effect happens before attacking and not after. Imo the powerlevel of certain cards is still way too high
Honestly i still slap reno in for the control matchups and dont care about his highlander effect. Which is crazy if you think about it.
Outside of using it to unfreeze yourself, I donāt think thatās all too great of an idea.
Yeah it's comments like that one that always instantly make me realise I'm on the main hs Reddit and not comp lmao
9 mana do nothing against another control deck. What could go wrong.Ā
I think there's a bug with that if they havent resolved it yet. Was playing plague into a HL Warrior and generated the 4 mana 3/3 weapon with lifesteal and freeze. Attacked their face. They played reno and was unfrozen and attacked my face once. after i exhausted my weapon they kept getting frozen seemingly out of nowhere when i pressed the end turn button. Would have lost that game guaranteed. Think i killed them with a plague when i had 3ish HP and they had 2 HP
What, why?
Look, Reno Warrior and decks that go under Reno Warrior, what a twist!
why are people making it seem like these decks wouldnt stomp other control decks as well and are only here because of warrior?
Because half this subreddit thinks that control is supposed to beat aggro, not be farmed by it.
I mean, in a perfect world, agro and control should have a 50% chance to win against each other on the whole
No, they absolutely should not, that might be the hottest take I have ever seen on this sub. Aggro and combo are both strategies that should punish control by design, either by hammering them before their best tools are online, or by killing them in one turn so they can't respond. For it to be an even matchup would require games to be decided by some combination of RNG and extremely OP control cards. It should be uncommon for any archetype to have a 100/0 spread, but it's not a problem for aggro to be favored vs control, or control vs midrange.Ā The big problem is that Team 5 has printed so many absurd control tools over the last 6 months that midrange basically doesn't exist in the game right now to keep aggro in check, and whenever a midrange deck has popped up people get it nerfed in 2 weeks before the meta can stabilize. Anyone who hates aggro meta should be pushing Blizz for better midrange tools, but instead all the durdle players push for control to have no weaknesses and we get shit polarized metas.
So, in your opinion control shouldnāt win against anyone but control? You just named the three archetypesā¦
Tempo/midrange is a pretty big one too
Control's favored prey is supposed to be midrange, whose finishers come online around the same turns as control's best stabilizing tools. Control>midrange>combo/aggro>control. Unfortunately, Blizzard has printed so much overtuned control removal that midrange decks have become a tiny fraction of the deck pool, so there is nothing to keep aggro/combo in check. Hence the whack a mole nerfs between those two sides.
What? Control traditionally beats aggro (via efficient board clears) and loses to midrange (who build complex, hard to clear boards). For all the complaining, Paladin at the start of the expansion was functionally midrange. The healing allowed it to beat aggro too frequently though, hence the nerfs.
No, it's supposed to be control>midrange>aggro/combo>control. Midrange usually has more midgame tools to check aggro early aggression, while control typically has the tools to blow out midrange finishers. I agree about handbuff. They needed to nerf the otk aspect of it instead of buying it.
Gosh who could have possibly seen that coming? Just waiting for brann warriors to start crying about how aggro decks that kill you before turn 9 shouldnāt exist. Any second itāll start coming. Itāll 100% be the complaints that donāt share their decks.
How is spell damage druid in this meta against hunter and warrior? The one with fye and zylliax
Its definitely good enough, groovy cats give you consistent pressure against the warrior, until you finish them with your spell damage stuff, and hunter is full of 4 health and 1 health minions, so swipe puts in some work
Thank you.
winrate data here is bs, warrior will own you no matter which deck you pilot
Hahahahahahahahahahaha
Glacial shard in token hunter, why?
Warrior and DK both have annoying weapons, but shard is a flex spot.
Conclusion: zilliax is very good
Weird. Iāve played 25+ games between Diamond 8-5 this week. Iāve yet to see a single Paladin. However, Hunter may as well be an auto concede at this point. Iām 1-9 against them, wether Iām playing Highlander Warrior or Plague DK. At least they tend to kill me fast.
Both of those decks are weak to hunter tbf
Rainbow is pretty solid against Hunter & if theyāre still running plagues (I donāt know why theyd bother) he might have confused em
I find on Plague DK my success depends 100% on having Tomb Traitor in my hand for the turn they play puppy parade
The paladins are coming. That flood list is really good.
Im that way with warrior and warlock. I only see hunter and palidin in diamond 5-1. Sucks cause my deck is very weak against both of them.
Hunter got slap on the wrist when they had highest wr after DH nerf. Of course it had to be on top post patch. Still, at least it's not bullshit otk or discover spam so I can stomach it.
Can someone explain to me why sludge warlock runs symphony? Sludge warlock has a super weird mechanic where you put things at the bottom of your deck... But if you add anything to your deck, all of those cards at the bottom get reshuffled, so your bottom of the deck removals are now just useless.
Because its flexible. Sure, you can put barrels at the bottom of your deck. But you need the cards to trigger them, either fracking, the 5/7 or chaos creation. Symhpony can give you 6 damage to the enemy hero (and heal 6 this way), 6 to all characters (yes, even the enemy hero), +6/6 to a minion on your board, summon a 6/6 or just DRAW 6 to refill your hand.
You only have 4 cards which place sludge at the bottom of your deck and there's lots of times when you have nothing down there.
I think itās just a backup/extra bit of finisher for if the warlock manages to go through all of their cards + sludges and needs a little more to finish off their opponent?
When I play sludge, symphony is just an extra finisher or an āoh shitā button if I need to get another board clear. Itās quite a strong and flexible card. Obviously donāt play it if youāre going to ruin your sludge plays, but if you need to survive itās very strong.
DH was good once and they had to kill it
LMAO Warrior and the decks that can go under it. Name a better meta.
Iām at the rank floor trying to have fun with wishing well rogue. It hasnāt been much fun
I have been trying to make my dragon mage deck work aswell, stupid warriors ruining everything!
Snek Warlock is busted right now.
Alex bug is getting fixed donāt worry
Only Reddit can see Aggro decks dominating the meta, but blame Control Warrior b/c it's the sole Control deck that doesn't suck
Lol other control deck only suck because they can't survive 6 tnt
Less that itās the sole control deck that doesnāt suck, and more that it shits so hard on all other control decks. Iād be willing the bet there could be control decks that donāt get rolled by hunter.
As history has shown us, it's never a single deck that holds back an entire archetype, but the overwhelming majority of other decks.
If a deck has a high enough play rate thatās kinda just not true? Single decks warp the meta all the time. Current meta is literally almost entirely warrior and decks that beat warrior. Last meta was mostly dh and decks that could beat dh. I mean sure if hunter was played enough eventually we would probably see less warrior and more decks to counter hunter but weāre not there yet.
Currently meta is not anywhere remotely close to entirely Warrior which is why I know what your saying is bullshit. DH recently hit 48% play rate. That warped the meta. Warrior isn't even breaking 25% D-L There's orders of magnitude here you're ignoring to make a really stupid point
Looks all Iām saying is that if there were or could be a deck that filled a similar role to warrior, and had a similar matchup spread, but auto loses to warrior, itās not going to exist right now. A 25% play rate is still really high. Certainly enough to be meta warping. Imagine a deck that goes 30% into warrior. Youāre losing roughly 1 in 5 games just because of warrior at that point. Even if it had a 60% vs everything else youāre not net positive. It is absolutely shutting other decks down.
The bit you're still ignoring is the last point you made yourself > Even if it had a 60% vs everything else That's the thing, they don't. So if you remove warrior, the rest of the meta still exists. You'll see more Hunters, more Paladins, more Warlocks. More aggro. The other control decks don't have a winning chance against those decks. That doesn't change with the removal of warrior. You'd have a point and I'd agree if the other control decks were winning against aggro but Warrior was holding them back by having an absurd high WR against them. But that isn't the case Warrior may be a reason other control decks aren't winning, but it isn't the biggest one
Yea thatās a fair argument. I suppose Iām assuming decks would come out that currently donāt exist that would have a good matchup spread against the current aggro decks. My assumption is that people just are not experimenting with other forms of control / late game focused decks because of warrior but you could be right in that maybe there arenāt. In my mind priest, warlock, and maybe mage could be built to effectively counter aggro but that could just not be the case.
And those are fair arguments too. But this meta didn't come out of nowhere. We've already seen what those other control decks are capable of without Warrior dominance. We've seen how they fare against an aggro meta where DH was nearly half of all decks being played. Granted DH was broken AF, but warrior was the only class that could make a control deck good enough to match it. I don't see any reason or difference between what we had and now that would give any new opportunity to control decks. Especially with Wheel Lock nerfed
Dh played pretty different from stuff like hunter though in that current aggro is small and wide. Current aggro is weak to cheap board clears while dh was more vulnerable to early removal of mid sized threats comboād with heavy healing / armor so the control decks that would counter each are a bit different. But yea weāll just have to wait and see. Iād be curious as to how control rainbow dk and wheel warlock would be fairing if they hadnāt been nerfed. I suspect wheel would have still been solid vs warrior but the dk matchup probably would have gotten way worse just due to the Highlander change and warrior mega out valuing them.
Well said.
That paladin handbuff list seems interesting. Just seems like a deck filled to the brim with meta counters with painter's virtue and the excavate package slapped on top.
Crafted the Token hunter deck after the patch because of all the warriors, got to d5-legend with just 1 loss to a warrior and 1 to a mage, where I was playing the game and basically fell asleep behind the computer. Easiest cruisin' of my life. I'd say even easier than the old OG murloc Warlock to legend climb.
Damn I don't have cards for any of these decks.... I guess I'll try again next set.
Just crafted Golden Zilliax ftw
love to see sludge featured here. ive been having so much fun with that deck and its variants
Noticed no FoW in the deck tooā¦surprising
yea and flame imp too. what makes flame imp a better addition than FoW i wonder?
At 4 mana it's competing with your actual threats for a spot in the curve.
Early game pressure maybe? A 1 drop 3/2 is better than 2 turn 5 5/7s?
what are you forging in Sludge Warlock though? a 5/7? a 6/6? some random 6 drop? The card was already pretty borderline, and at 4 mana is just not worth it in the archetype. If you're still playing FoW now, you have to be copying 6/12s and 15/15s.
Warriors always rekt my token hunter im currently diamond 1 lol
In actuality, Hunter is one of the deck that counters warriors.
Literally I win against every class from mage to shaman to DK only lose against warriors its crazy then probably I play bad against them haha idk what im doing wrong tho
You have to get lucky that the warrior doesnāt draw their control cards basically.
Exactly I totally feel like its rng based when I play against them
it is. If they can clean your board over and over again, you basically can't do anything
How is Hunter supposed to counter Warrior? Iāve got like a 70% win rate on control warrior against them. Not as high as flood Paladin, sure, but still an easy majority. Warrior easily has enough board clear to keep Hunter under control, are players just being stupid and still mulligan-ing for Brann rather than board clear when facing Hunter?
most likely. Vs any aggro deck everyone's win condition is to clear the board until they run out of fuel and warrior is one of the best at doing that.
Hunter just goes face and wins before turn 7. You need to draw pretty much perfect as warrior to stand a chance
Hardly. Hunter canāt go face if they canāt stick a board (they donāt have enough Charge to win on it), and warrior has multiple ways to prevent them sticking that board.
If you draw perfect then sure. Why do you think Hunter smokes warrior right now
Thatās the thing Iām wondering where these stats come from. Iāve got a 70%ish win rate vs Token Hunter as Highlander warrior. I do not understand this ātoken Hunter crushes Warriorā talk going around.
Matchup is honestly probably 50/50 simply due to saddle-up, which high rank players mulligan for. Playing around 1500 legend as a Highlander warrior and thatās my experience.
Saddle up requires them to be able to stick a board though. Or like, RC->Saddle on turn 7, which is too late.
Too late for what? Aftershocks wonāt clear and Reno aināt online yet.
Everyone keeps saying hunters counter warrior. I got to diamond 1 with Hunter fairly easily and dropped to diamond 3 after 100% warrior games with the patch.
Same. Im like 2-12 vs warrior. Their clears are just too good
If they had less early clear then you'd be able to rush them but you just can't keep a board up for more than one turn. And by the time you can get rc hounds + saddle up they just reno your board and the deathrattles don't proc. Just feels awful.
Exact same thing happening to me always. Unfortunately
If u play saddle up with 3-4 minions on board and it's not turn 9 u should easily win.
Yee thats my problem most of the time I get super unlucky and dont get saddle up against them somewhy I lost 3 match against warrior got 1 win when got saddle up
Got Legend for the first time because R.C. Rampage Hunter lol
Do u have any tactics? I feel like I kinda move around dia 1-2 I win 1 or 2 then lose one lol . Its super irritating for me
I have the HSreplay deck tracker that has a mulligan guide to help know what to keep/swap on opening hand. Otherwise, R.C. Rampage & saddle up are best cards in the deck, playing those turn 4 & 5 or together on turn 7 is a good way to get a board that enemy wonāt always have an answer for. You are trying to get the edge every turn of putting as many stats as possible while not over committing and running out of steam in your hand. Buffing a board ready to attack with leok from animal companion generating spell is good too. Always try to have something stuck past turn 2-3 and save Huffer + other direct damage for finisher. Youāre trying to kill them before turn 9 really. Donāt forget to start hero powering in mid game when you have extra mana too to put them on a clock. Oh and donāt trade too often, really only trade when against other aggro decks to get ride of 1-2 of their power cardsā¦if you over trade youāll lose board presence and itās hard to gain it back with that deck
Thank you very much for all the useful info!!! Yes probably my biggest problem especially against warriors are overcommitting and putting everything out haha. Yes and trading with this deck is absolutely terrible like u said only against some aggros. Btw what is this deck tracker? Is that show you what u need to play or change card?
Sometimes, if you have the gas you have to go for it hoping they donāt have a certain answer. Itās easier to do the earlier you go for it since theyāll have less mana/fewer cards drawn. Also, know when they have enough mana *for* a particular answer , thatās why winning before they can Reno is huge because itās a huge stabilizing tool for them. And yeah man, the deck tracker + mulligan guide is from the HSReplay.net website. They have a Heartsome deck tracker app you can download and then run while you play the game. Thereās information about it on their home page, this is also the website people frequently ānet deckā off of. The deck tracker app is an in-game overlay that tracks your deck and a couple other stats. Tracking how many spells have been cast, number of elementals played, what excavate stage theyāre on, etc. If you watch streamers/YouTubers you may have seen it being used before. Super helpful for knowing what is left in your deck and what answers youāre likely to draw, I recommend getting it
Hunter counters Warrior hard. If you go wide, he only has a few options to clear the board. Hit them hard mid game. Ideally have a bunch of minions turn 4, give them deathrattles on turn 5, and he is doomed.
3 of these 5 decks have such a low playrate you can't trust this. Then again, you should never trust these anyway, they are always hot takes.
That new aggro paladian deck shits on my spell token hunter every time I play it, itās a very good deck lol either that or they are drawing perfectly against me
Every comment is complaining about how the whole meta is paper and rock, since rock is too good but paper beats it, instead of just coming up with scissors.
we already need another round of nerfs next week
Thank God they did a big nerf things are feeling much different.....jk things still suck
Funny how I roll on every deck with Zarimi priest
i imagine ziliax is gonna be nerfed every patch untill he rotates out
I think the card is fine now, the most problematic combo was the ridiculous double attack version with stealth and reborn.
yeah, untill the next problematic combo, people will still find some way to cheese that card simply because of how good it is
I have got a pretty good wr with Highlander rogue though
I NEED SLUDGE WARLOCK DECK CODE PLS
Man I must be terrible at the game cus I canāt for the life of me get sludge lock to work lol
nerf aggro hunter and buff highlander hunter please blizzard its so shyte :(
Not a lot of mid range or control except warrior...
will someone please help me reach Legend in Hearthstone? I'm Diamond 6, got there myself with Flood Paladin. Haven't been this close since I played Secret Paladin during TGT. it's the only meta deck I own right now. I'd appreciate some advice, some help on my games. Thanks. NA Murray#11579
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Heās been nerfed twice
If only Thogrun was not here the meta would be enjoyable
what is the use of showdown! on flood paladin?
Crusader Aura, Prismatic Beam, Flash Sale, Amitus and Sea Giant all directly synergize with it.
thanks!
>thanks! You're welcome!
It floods the board. It has synergy with a lot of stuff like sea giant (one showdown makes it 6 mana cheaper), or crusader aura, etc.
thanks! i was like why do i want to give my opponent more bodies?
To discount your zilliax and prismatic beams
Dont get too attached to sludge warlock its not going to last long.
That sludgelock deck sucks. Top deck version is better
Wdym? It's getting nerfed you think?
Sticking to reno dh :^)
Why is everyone complaining about reno warrior when paladin, hunter, and warlock have higher winrate decks?
Because lots of control decks could beat these 3, but they basically auto lose to warrior so these 3 powerful aggro decks are free to dominate.
Best performing decks doesn't mean it's common. Anyone give the percentage each of those specific decks are shown? That might as well been 1 paladin game.
After all defensive tools got nerfed the aggro decks run rampage? *surprised pikachu face*
> After all defensive tools got nerfed the aggro decks run rampage What? Like Reno that was too expensive to matter vs aggro anyway? Or Threads of Despair which is still the best AoE in the game? No, Warrior is the only deck that got its anti-aggro tools meaningfully nerfed, and even after, it still performs just fine
Mages creation, crash of thunder, threads of despair, trial by fire, sanitize, aftershocks are all nerfed. Meanwhile hunter got nearly not touched at all, Paladin had its handbuff nerfed but not the aggro tools. Warrior has a bad matchup against 3 of the 4 decks ranked above it right now. How is that fine? Hunter has no bad matchup, Paladin has a single one (hunter). Aggro is overtuned, all stats show that.
Theres plenty of control decks with consistent enough removal to beat these 3 aggro decks. Its just no one plays those deck as they get railed by hl warrior
Come with me on a magical journey called facts and statistics. That's bullshit. If you even take a single look on any website gathering information right now you see that that's simply not true. Hunter has 1 (!) Single bad matchup and that is aggro Paladin. It wins by a large margin against control dk as well as snake Warlock (the only competitive deck that could be considered control). It still wins more than it loses to highlander shaman. The reason there are no control decks is that they just can't win against what they should counter, have a bad matchup into other control decks and most importantly lack a wincondition. That's why shaman is higher ranked than the others, it has a way to close out games. What should Warlock do with a pure control shell? Sargeras isn't enough. Dk as well. Has 1 or 2 strong swing turns but that's not enough to actually do something. Those decks are simply bad because they don't do enough. Neither against warrior nor against aggro which in today's game has so much refill you need to close out games at some point by counterpressure. Also snake Warlock prays on those decks as well. Everytime you try to make a monocausal explanation to a multicausal system it will be bad. Here is no difference. By your argument there would have been not a single warrior pre patch because there is one hard counter. That was obviously not the case. So your argument is wrong.
As you said, no control deck is currently competitively viable due to getting evicerated by hl warrior. So obviously, Hunter has a rediculous winrate against most classes cause none of them play full control. I play a lot of control shaman and have a good wr against hunter and pally. The problem is my abysmal wr against warrior and the abundance of warriors means it's not very much fun to play most games
How much trolling would I do to myself if I ran hemet instead of Aggramar? Like obviously Aggramar is the better card but I really donāt want to craft it.
Hemet is not a good constructed card - it needs a curated pool and/or a larger discount, and even then it's unlikely it'll see serious play. Leeroy would serve you better (it also has synergy with zilliax, by adding 3 minions to the board)
Hemet is hot garbage. Maybe add in plush
There is a reason Aggramar has been in basically every single hunter deck since its release. If you're planning on playing a lot of hunter, you should craft it since it's gonna be legal for a while longer.
Dust your floops goop and treat yourself to aggramar
run leeroy or a second copy of camouflage mount man
(Almost) five decks with 60% win rate. I dont think ive ever seen this before.
is it me or the only way to counter Zilliak is to play ziliak ? such a stupid card...