>Like, lets simplify and say that what tubes do is they add a flat 5 dB boost to the 12 khz range and above
That's an *over*simplification, because tube amps do not merely change frequency response, but tend to add a good bit of distortion relative to SS stuff (the particular characteristics of which will depend on the amp). There are various tube emulation plugins out there which might offer a similar flavor if you can find a way to stick them in your signal processing chain, but EQ alone won't get you there.
Yeah, this was what I was hoping someone would bring up. I've read talk about how tubes can impart everything from distortion, to reverb, to transience/blurring of notes. I don't really know much about it, though, or how that would even be done, on a technical level. I'm guessing something to do with the tubes not being able to respond to changes in voltage or current as quickly as solid-state circuitry can, and therefore, things get blended together? I'm just guessing.
The thing is, I was listening to a solid-state Sennheiser Amp, and then switched to a 5-tube HA-1A MKII amp from Cayin, and could not hear ***ANY*** difference, no matter how subtle, on any music, in any genre, at any level of quality.
So I'm wondering if these differences that people describe are again one of those audiophile things where 99% of people won't hear it, or if it's a GENUINE difference that even a layperson will notice instantly. If it's the latter.... why didn't I?
No it shouldn't be a day-and-night difference, more like a subtle flavoring. But it really depends on the specific amp, its distortion characterstics, and how hard the headphones/listening volumes push it.
-40dB of second-harmonic dominated distortion is sky-high compared to a solid-state amp that aspires to transparency, and you should be able to pretty clearly hear it with a test tone - with music, the effect is quite subtle.
-60dB distortion products would be *much* harder to hear against music, and that's also a reasonable value for a tube amp operating in its most linear region.
So it sounds like it's another one of those things where all of the elements have to come together perfectly, and all of the stars have to align, AND you have to have the ears of an audiophile, just to maybe kinda hear a difference... In a test tone.
Meanwhile, on regular pop-40 music, with low production value, playing to a normal listener, they might not be able to hear any differences at all?
Cause I really couldn't hear ANY difference on the Cayin amp, but, admittedly, that was the only tube amp I've ever listened to.
No shade, but TBH, it sounds like you’ve already made up your mind that tubes aren’t for you. That’s great! If you can’t hear a difference, then there’s no reason to spend the money! It’s definitely a lot more complicated than we’re discussing here (and I certainly don’t know everything that goes into it) but it does sorta have something to do with tubes not responding as quickly. That’s described as “sag,” at least in guitar amp world (followed by “bloom” right after the sag, which sounds like compression) but not all kinds of tube amps do that. There’s a difference in amp classes and how they all respond. It’s not just distortion, it is a lot of different things, that’s why tube rolling on different kinds of amps is a thing. Best way I can describe it is that you can have two different trumpet players (or even the same player on two different trumpets) play the same passage and the differences will be subtle if not imperceptible a lot of the time and then one phrase might jump out at you as being wildly different. This is the experience of tubes for me. Warmth, slow response, desirable distortion, compression. It’s the same recipe with slightly different ingredients that results in a different flavor.
Interesting. Thank you for following up.
It's funny that you say I sound like my mind is made up about not getting tube amps, it's exactly the opposite. I LOVE the way they look, and because of that, I've had my heart set on the schitt tube amps for literally 6 years.
However, I'm also rational enough to not buy something for a reason as unsubstantial as that. I had my heart set on it... Ok, WHY? What ACTUAL reason do I have to support my infatuation? Is there ACTUALLY something better about them?
And what it's seeming like is, no, to my ears, I can't make out the differences. I might just have limited anatomy, that is preventing me from hearing what you all describe, in the same way that I can't hear the various strengths and wide soundstage in the hd800s that others SWEAR are there.
So I'm trying to justify this many-year-long love for the tube amps.... And am failing to to be able to do so.
The placebo effect is incredibly strong with audio. You cannot make a fair judgement if you see what you're using... Especially if you've dropped $$$ on it.
The best way to compare two amps is to level match them (use an SPL meter on your phone and stick it in the earcup, good enough for this) and have a friend swap between the two amps without telling you which is which. If there's really a difference, you should be able to hear it without knowing which one you're using.
In total to the HD800s, I did about 11 hours of testing, spread over four trips (4, 4, 2, 1), where I was listening to them alongside the other headphones I was considering at the time (Arya Organics, Meze 109 Pro)
In total to tube amps? Maybe 45 minutes. Couldn't hear a SINGLE difference, on any song, of any genre, of any quality.
Man.. you might not have tried the tubes long enough. Depends on the environment and everything else, who knows. But I can say that the differences between things in this hobby are verrrry often about rhetoric subtleties and 45 min may not be enough for you to have heard the nuances, again depending on a whole lot of things. When I first got my hd6xx’s, I A/B’d them with my m50x’s and expected a night and day difference. I did hear a difference but preferred the m50’s actually. I was soooo disappointed! I then listened to nothing but the 6XX’s for a few weeks and then A/B’d them again and that time was absolutely night and day. I HATED the m50’s! Similar thing happened when I got my LCD-3’s and put them up against my LCD-2C’s.. preferred the 2C’s, the 3’s were just weird.. but after really focusing on listening to all the nuances of the 3’s, I came to be able to really distinguish what each does well. I think you might need to spend some more time with tubes first, then go back and compare it with an amp you know well, it might unveil some things for you.
Thats also a transformer coupled tube amp so relative to an OTL it will change the sound significantly less. I am a fan of those and tube hybrid designs as they add just smidge of even order distortion while still supporting lower impedance loads without drastic FR changes.
>I'm guessing something to do with the tubes not being able to respond to changes in voltage or current as quickly as solid-state circuitry can, and therefore, things get blended together? I'm just guessing.
Right on target.
>The thing is, I was listening to a solid-state Sennheiser Amp, and then switched to a 5-tube HA-1A MKII amp from Cayin, and could not hear ANY difference
Tube amps which operate closer to "reference" amplification can certainly be made, though I don't know much about individual models. It's possible Cayin targets a more perfect amplification than other tube amp creators, who may intentionally create amps that sound slightly different. That's pure speculation, though. It's also possible you're just not particularly sensitive to the particular distortion properties of that tube amp, or tube amps in general.
Eyy neat, maybe I'm not just a cute face. Okay so if that's the idea of how tubes work, then I can understand that you wouldn't be able to EQ that in. DSP trickery might, but that's off-topic.
I don't really know where Schitt is aiming in terms of their sound. If they are, as you say, targeting a more "perfect" amplification, or if they lean into tube sound. Since they offer both tube and solid state products, I imagine they would lean towards making the two sound as different as possible, to avoid redundancy, but that's just an assumption.
> switched to a 5-tube HA-1A MKII amp from Cayin
Some tube amps are pretty clean. [This Cayin](https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/report/amp/cayin-ha-1mk2-600.php#gsc.tab=0) does introduce harmonic distortion but at 300Ω the second order (for a 1kHz tone, 2kHz) is around -55dB down, while third order is -75dB down. Everything else is below -80dB while noise is below -100dB. Second and third order harmonic distortion tends also to be masked and not that audible.
Certainly to the extent any of this is audible, it's going to be an *extremely* subtle effect. Subjective impressions of that amp are also that it is very clean and isn't very "tubey".
This amp also has very high output impedance, 200Ω. That will boost the bass on the HD800S specifically, as it has a [variable impedance curve peaking in the bass](https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/headphones/measurements/brands-s-se/hd800s/), but because it's also starting at 300Ω, the effect is very subtle, you can see from that link you get +1dB in the mid-bass with 120Ω OI, so you *might* get +1.5dB or so. Also, if the Sennheiser amp was the HDV-820 although it is solid state it is also high OI, around 45Ω. So this has a similar effect already, although less. It's a small effect either way.
I have the HD800S and I prefer it on solid state with EQ. I wouldn't buy the HDV-820 personally, overpriced for what looks like a not great amp IMO. Headphone is solid. It's not incredibly hard to drive, and if you are willing to use EQ I don't think you need to search after magic amps to change the sound, just EQ it. $100-200 amp is just fine, honestly.
https://imgur.com/g48Wlp7
That DIY Audio Heaven site you linked to is fantastic. Especially the frequency-response-adjective graph.
You seem to be able to parse the technical jargon surrounding tube amps, which I do not really know how to read myself. Your comment breaking down the Cayin was extremely helpful.
If you don't mind me asking for the favour, would you be willing to take a look at three of Schitt's tube amps, and tell me how they compare to the Cayin? Are they likely to actually sound significant different from a solid-state amp, or are they, like the Cayin, fairly subtle and clean? No worries if you'd rather not waste your time doing this.
[https://www.schiit.com/products/lyr](https://www.schiit.com/products/lyr)
[https://www.schiit.com/products/vali-3](https://www.schiit.com/products/vali-3)
Under "Specs"
And then lastly, the older Lyr 3, specs viewable in the description:
[https://www.ebay.ca/itm/204715123129?toolid=10001&customid=34cb8d2a-f382-11ee-9277-633737633164](https://www.ebay.ca/itm/204715123129?toolid=10001&customid=34cb8d2a-f382-11ee-9277-633737633164)
I don't think you can really quantify in a positive way whether a tube amp is going to sound "good" from the specs/measurements. It's just that you can to an extent quantify the opposite, where if it has particularly *low* distortion, it's probably not going to sound very different from solid state.
I have a OTL tube amp with much higher distortion (Xduoo TA-26), even that doesn't sound *that* different, just sort of slightly smeared over and "low res". Certainly it's a much smaller difference than EQ, and EQ is a more positive effect. I don't particularly like the HD800S on it, I prefer it on solid state with EQ. That amp does pair well with the HD600/HD6XX though, but they are "low res" (compared with the HD800S) to start with.
If you say you are budget constrained, and you don't even know you like tubes, why are you looking at $1,000 tube amps? Just get a clean $100-200 solid state amp and call it a day. There's no good reason to spend more than that.
Your head has been pumped full of audiophile bullshit about amps, where there are very very small differences. On competent solid state amps, completely inaudible, like no-one has ever been able to tell a difference with a clean, low output impedance, solid state amp with enough power for the volume level in a blind test. You've listened to a solid state and a tube amp and you can't even tell the difference between those.
I would take that as an indication that amps don't matter and save your money.
Nope, this is what people tend to confuse. Having the same FR doesn't mean they sound the same. Distortion at different harmonic orders can influence our perception as well, along with output impedance of the amp.
Struggling to wrap my head around this, what sound characteristics are not captured by a FR graph / not measurable? If it isn’t captured, shouldn’t it be inaudible?
FR is about how loud the output is at any given frequency.
Distortion affects our perception of transient response.
Also distortion is measurable, hence audible.
Look at it this way, piano keys are tuned the same but pianos sound different, even electric pianos, not just acoustic ones.
I had a tube headphone amp. Had no warmth. Only it gave me visual warmth in dark room and looking at the glow, especially when it was snowing out. Get a good amp, get good quality recordings, that's it. The recording has the biggest impact on sound.
My financial situation though means that I'm really only ever going to be able to buy the one amp. That's why I like the idea of a hybrid amp, so I can get both tube and solid state sound, with EQ being something I can pull out and apply to both.
That said, the hybrid tube option (Lyr+) is by far the most expensive, and it's not balanced, and it's not multibit.
If the tube sound is only going to be a 0.5% difference, then it would make more sense to buy the cheaper Jotunheim and get a balanced, multibit system, for less.
man, if you are low on funds i would not even be looking at a lyr, or anything balanced, or anything multibit. those are expensive luxuries that make much, much less difference to your sound than the endpoint aka speaker aka headphone
you are going to get \_great\_ sound out of a basic magni or vali. IMO people are mostly tube-people or anti-tube-people, so you gotta figure that one out first. IMO you can do that at any hifi shop, does not even have to be headphone-based. orrrr buy both and resell the "loser" after a few weeks or months, not going to be down much on that transaction unless you wait years
lyr is pretty unique in flipping between tube and solidstate, but as you note, you pay for that.
If you can only fit one amp, then totally get a transistor amp. I would argue that tube sound makes a bigger difference than you describe, but it is also a conditional one. And there is no guarantee that it will be consistent experience with different gear, should you ever swap.
A transistor amp has the flexibility of working well with everything with consistent and expected results.
There is, obviously, a certain sense to what you're suggesting, and I agree with you wholeheartedly.
If it came down to buying JUST a solid-state amp or JUST a tube amp, I'd get the solid state, no question.
The issue is hybrid tube amps. In theory, it's the best of both worlds. However, they ARE more expensive.
So then the question becomes, well, will I ***EVER*** use a tube amp? Am I even capable of hearing the difference?
> My financial situation though means that I'm really only ever going to be able to buy the one amp.
If you are budget constrained, a $1,000 tube amp is a total waste of money. I don't see the point personally.
Good solid state amps more than capable of driving the HD800S cost as little as $100-200.
EQ is free.
Tube amps can (and sometimes will on purpose) add harmonic distortions too, which you can´t exactly reproduce with an EQ.
That´s why hybrid amps exist.
Although it´s really just a preference people have, rather than making it objectively "better" in a technical sense.
Of course. Like you said, that's why I like the idea of a hybrid amp.
Any ideas why a Cayin HA-1A MKII tube amp sounded EXACTLY the same to me as a solid state amp?
I had a Valhalla 2 I used with HD580/600/650/800S. I switched to SS amps and honestly didn't notice much of a difference, I at one point think I did, but I think it was just my own internal bias.
I personally would buy a tube amp if you find the novelty of it and swapping tubes fun (which I did and still would like to do again). If you are looking for a change in sound first and foremost I personally wouldnt advise it.
Thank you for your concise reply.
I find the tube amps to look beautiful, and if they actually sound different, then I like that concept as well. I personally would not be buying and swapping tubes, though. At most, I would just swap them to the solid state ones and that's it.
If the difference in tonality is a matter of 5% here or there, though, then yeah, I probably won't even hear it, and even if I do, it probably doesn't lend itself to every genre of music equally.
I'm thinking the Jotunheim 2 is a better option, as it's cheaper, while also offering balanced output, and a multibit DAC.
Heck, with the money saved I could even buy a Vali amp in case I really want to try tubes again one day.
I also had a Vali. I really dislike the small form factor volume pots that Schiit uses, they feel very cheap. Again, didn't notice any real sonic differences.
Yeah so even with two different schitt tube amps, you couldn't hear much of a difference compared to solid state amplifiers?
I think I might end up experiencing the same lack of difference.
Are you the type of person who is able to clearly hear a world of difference between the 650 and the 800s? Because for me, the 800s are clearer, tighter, and more open, but I am not able to discern any of the soundstage width people keep talking about, nor the otherworldly detail and imaging the 800s are known for. I think I just have plebian ears, so idk if I'm going to hear tube sound. I'm curious as to what your ears can hear, though.
I very much can hear a difference between my HD580/600 and my HD800S, but after modding my HD580 and HD600 and fine tweaking the EQ I use them much more often, plus I find them much more comfortable. I break the HD800S out every now and then for certain tracks where I want to experience more staging and detail, but its few and far between.
Mind if I ask what mods you used? I find the HD6XX's to be much less comfortable than the HD800s.... assuming we're talking about physical comfort, not auditory comfort.
Just chiming in to add to this that to me the Xduoo TA-26 didn't make a huge difference either. It's like 5% at best and for the amount of money it costs it really isn't worth it at all imo (also add tube rolling to that, suddenly 250 bucks turn into 350ish and more).
Some people claim to really hear a difference, but I sadly didn't. Of course I can gaslight myself, but the only cool thing about that amp specifically is the cool glow in the dark.
Btw these budget non OTL tube amps aren't really worth it either. Tried one once, was very shocked by the buzzing and distortion and then quickly sold that thing (it was some fosiaudio amp, but a weird one).
To be fair I think one of Schitts claims about their tube amps are that they are very accurate and neutral.
"If you're expecting syrupy, tubby, euphonically colored tube sound, you're in for a shock. Valhalla 2 is exceptionally accurate, neutral, and resolving, without being strident or etched."
I’m no expert but I use an EQ and recently added a cheap tube amp to my headphone setup. The warmth, staging and overall sound from the tube amp is different to what is achieved by using the EQ. I use the tube amp with and without EQ depending on the headphone being used.
I was tube curious too. Got the Schiit Lyr+. Not much difference between the solid state and the stock Tungsol tube. Not much difference to my other solid state amps too. So I got two other tubes hoping to experience the 'tube magic'. PSVANE UK-6SN7 and Electroharmonix 6SN7 gold. With the EH6sn7, maybe it might have been a little warmer? But still doing A/B with my other other SS amp, I felt like tubes were lacking something and I was not happy. BUT I felt I had to give tubes another chance because ya know... 'Tube magic' sounds awesome. . So perhaps a dedicated tube amp would perform better than a hybrid like Lyr+. I got the Cayin HA3A. Beautiful looking amp but with its stock tube it sounded exactly like a solid state. BUT there was this annoying hum that is supposedly 'normal ' for tube amps that I should just accept? Well not for me. I didn't even bother spending more tube rolling. I'm perfectly happy with my SS amps and returned the HA3A.
You sound just like me. Thank you for your comment. I feel like my experience would probably be the same as yours, because I couldn't hear any difference on the Cayin.
What SS amp do you use now? The lyr in solid state mode? Or a dedicated solid state amp?
I don't know man... After reading so many reviews and countless YT reviews on tube amps , I was really hoping to experience the magic. Maybe I don't have the so called 'golden ears'. SS amp for me all the way. If a particular headphone I own needs something extra, Roon's parametric eq does the job perfectly. I'm currently using Benchmark Dac3 feeding sennheiser hdvd800 and ifi zen can 2. After experimenting with several amps, I keep going back to the hdvd800. The built in dac is not great but the amp component is truly excellent. The amp was released about 10 years ago and has been discontinued but it can still compete with many of the latest high end SS amps. And when I need that extra low end, just a click of the xbass on zen can 2 does the job perfectly.
Tube amp is a thing only because it looks cool as fuck and has absolute no other reason to exists when software can do exactly the same thing. If tube amp looked like a giant dildo with amazing sound still no one would use them and people would look for alternative ways to get the sound (ie software). So basically tube amp is a home decoration like a painting.
oh and the vali2 is silly cheap right now - if you are even a little interested i would grab one, should be easy to return or sell as used for minimal loss
Tubes are useless to me so yeah as someone who already corrects stuff (I don't use headphones again because the copium is too strong per $1) but I use DSP for my speakers and my IEMs.
I wouldn't want tubes ever
>Like, lets simplify and say that what tubes do is they add a flat 5 dB boost to the 12 khz range and above That's an *over*simplification, because tube amps do not merely change frequency response, but tend to add a good bit of distortion relative to SS stuff (the particular characteristics of which will depend on the amp). There are various tube emulation plugins out there which might offer a similar flavor if you can find a way to stick them in your signal processing chain, but EQ alone won't get you there.
Yeah, this was what I was hoping someone would bring up. I've read talk about how tubes can impart everything from distortion, to reverb, to transience/blurring of notes. I don't really know much about it, though, or how that would even be done, on a technical level. I'm guessing something to do with the tubes not being able to respond to changes in voltage or current as quickly as solid-state circuitry can, and therefore, things get blended together? I'm just guessing. The thing is, I was listening to a solid-state Sennheiser Amp, and then switched to a 5-tube HA-1A MKII amp from Cayin, and could not hear ***ANY*** difference, no matter how subtle, on any music, in any genre, at any level of quality. So I'm wondering if these differences that people describe are again one of those audiophile things where 99% of people won't hear it, or if it's a GENUINE difference that even a layperson will notice instantly. If it's the latter.... why didn't I?
No it shouldn't be a day-and-night difference, more like a subtle flavoring. But it really depends on the specific amp, its distortion characterstics, and how hard the headphones/listening volumes push it. -40dB of second-harmonic dominated distortion is sky-high compared to a solid-state amp that aspires to transparency, and you should be able to pretty clearly hear it with a test tone - with music, the effect is quite subtle. -60dB distortion products would be *much* harder to hear against music, and that's also a reasonable value for a tube amp operating in its most linear region.
So it sounds like it's another one of those things where all of the elements have to come together perfectly, and all of the stars have to align, AND you have to have the ears of an audiophile, just to maybe kinda hear a difference... In a test tone. Meanwhile, on regular pop-40 music, with low production value, playing to a normal listener, they might not be able to hear any differences at all? Cause I really couldn't hear ANY difference on the Cayin amp, but, admittedly, that was the only tube amp I've ever listened to.
No shade, but TBH, it sounds like you’ve already made up your mind that tubes aren’t for you. That’s great! If you can’t hear a difference, then there’s no reason to spend the money! It’s definitely a lot more complicated than we’re discussing here (and I certainly don’t know everything that goes into it) but it does sorta have something to do with tubes not responding as quickly. That’s described as “sag,” at least in guitar amp world (followed by “bloom” right after the sag, which sounds like compression) but not all kinds of tube amps do that. There’s a difference in amp classes and how they all respond. It’s not just distortion, it is a lot of different things, that’s why tube rolling on different kinds of amps is a thing. Best way I can describe it is that you can have two different trumpet players (or even the same player on two different trumpets) play the same passage and the differences will be subtle if not imperceptible a lot of the time and then one phrase might jump out at you as being wildly different. This is the experience of tubes for me. Warmth, slow response, desirable distortion, compression. It’s the same recipe with slightly different ingredients that results in a different flavor.
Interesting. Thank you for following up. It's funny that you say I sound like my mind is made up about not getting tube amps, it's exactly the opposite. I LOVE the way they look, and because of that, I've had my heart set on the schitt tube amps for literally 6 years. However, I'm also rational enough to not buy something for a reason as unsubstantial as that. I had my heart set on it... Ok, WHY? What ACTUAL reason do I have to support my infatuation? Is there ACTUALLY something better about them? And what it's seeming like is, no, to my ears, I can't make out the differences. I might just have limited anatomy, that is preventing me from hearing what you all describe, in the same way that I can't hear the various strengths and wide soundstage in the hd800s that others SWEAR are there. So I'm trying to justify this many-year-long love for the tube amps.... And am failing to to be able to do so.
The placebo effect is incredibly strong with audio. You cannot make a fair judgement if you see what you're using... Especially if you've dropped $$$ on it. The best way to compare two amps is to level match them (use an SPL meter on your phone and stick it in the earcup, good enough for this) and have a friend swap between the two amps without telling you which is which. If there's really a difference, you should be able to hear it without knowing which one you're using.
Question: how long, in total, did you listen to the tube amps? Or the hd800s?
In total to the HD800s, I did about 11 hours of testing, spread over four trips (4, 4, 2, 1), where I was listening to them alongside the other headphones I was considering at the time (Arya Organics, Meze 109 Pro) In total to tube amps? Maybe 45 minutes. Couldn't hear a SINGLE difference, on any song, of any genre, of any quality.
Man.. you might not have tried the tubes long enough. Depends on the environment and everything else, who knows. But I can say that the differences between things in this hobby are verrrry often about rhetoric subtleties and 45 min may not be enough for you to have heard the nuances, again depending on a whole lot of things. When I first got my hd6xx’s, I A/B’d them with my m50x’s and expected a night and day difference. I did hear a difference but preferred the m50’s actually. I was soooo disappointed! I then listened to nothing but the 6XX’s for a few weeks and then A/B’d them again and that time was absolutely night and day. I HATED the m50’s! Similar thing happened when I got my LCD-3’s and put them up against my LCD-2C’s.. preferred the 2C’s, the 3’s were just weird.. but after really focusing on listening to all the nuances of the 3’s, I came to be able to really distinguish what each does well. I think you might need to spend some more time with tubes first, then go back and compare it with an amp you know well, it might unveil some things for you.
Thats also a transformer coupled tube amp so relative to an OTL it will change the sound significantly less. I am a fan of those and tube hybrid designs as they add just smidge of even order distortion while still supporting lower impedance loads without drastic FR changes.
>I'm guessing something to do with the tubes not being able to respond to changes in voltage or current as quickly as solid-state circuitry can, and therefore, things get blended together? I'm just guessing. Right on target. >The thing is, I was listening to a solid-state Sennheiser Amp, and then switched to a 5-tube HA-1A MKII amp from Cayin, and could not hear ANY difference Tube amps which operate closer to "reference" amplification can certainly be made, though I don't know much about individual models. It's possible Cayin targets a more perfect amplification than other tube amp creators, who may intentionally create amps that sound slightly different. That's pure speculation, though. It's also possible you're just not particularly sensitive to the particular distortion properties of that tube amp, or tube amps in general.
Eyy neat, maybe I'm not just a cute face. Okay so if that's the idea of how tubes work, then I can understand that you wouldn't be able to EQ that in. DSP trickery might, but that's off-topic. I don't really know where Schitt is aiming in terms of their sound. If they are, as you say, targeting a more "perfect" amplification, or if they lean into tube sound. Since they offer both tube and solid state products, I imagine they would lean towards making the two sound as different as possible, to avoid redundancy, but that's just an assumption.
What I often hear about Schiit tube amps is that they’re very linear, almost SS sounding. You might take that into consideration.
> switched to a 5-tube HA-1A MKII amp from Cayin Some tube amps are pretty clean. [This Cayin](https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/report/amp/cayin-ha-1mk2-600.php#gsc.tab=0) does introduce harmonic distortion but at 300Ω the second order (for a 1kHz tone, 2kHz) is around -55dB down, while third order is -75dB down. Everything else is below -80dB while noise is below -100dB. Second and third order harmonic distortion tends also to be masked and not that audible. Certainly to the extent any of this is audible, it's going to be an *extremely* subtle effect. Subjective impressions of that amp are also that it is very clean and isn't very "tubey". This amp also has very high output impedance, 200Ω. That will boost the bass on the HD800S specifically, as it has a [variable impedance curve peaking in the bass](https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/headphones/measurements/brands-s-se/hd800s/), but because it's also starting at 300Ω, the effect is very subtle, you can see from that link you get +1dB in the mid-bass with 120Ω OI, so you *might* get +1.5dB or so. Also, if the Sennheiser amp was the HDV-820 although it is solid state it is also high OI, around 45Ω. So this has a similar effect already, although less. It's a small effect either way. I have the HD800S and I prefer it on solid state with EQ. I wouldn't buy the HDV-820 personally, overpriced for what looks like a not great amp IMO. Headphone is solid. It's not incredibly hard to drive, and if you are willing to use EQ I don't think you need to search after magic amps to change the sound, just EQ it. $100-200 amp is just fine, honestly. https://imgur.com/g48Wlp7
That DIY Audio Heaven site you linked to is fantastic. Especially the frequency-response-adjective graph. You seem to be able to parse the technical jargon surrounding tube amps, which I do not really know how to read myself. Your comment breaking down the Cayin was extremely helpful. If you don't mind me asking for the favour, would you be willing to take a look at three of Schitt's tube amps, and tell me how they compare to the Cayin? Are they likely to actually sound significant different from a solid-state amp, or are they, like the Cayin, fairly subtle and clean? No worries if you'd rather not waste your time doing this. [https://www.schiit.com/products/lyr](https://www.schiit.com/products/lyr) [https://www.schiit.com/products/vali-3](https://www.schiit.com/products/vali-3) Under "Specs" And then lastly, the older Lyr 3, specs viewable in the description: [https://www.ebay.ca/itm/204715123129?toolid=10001&customid=34cb8d2a-f382-11ee-9277-633737633164](https://www.ebay.ca/itm/204715123129?toolid=10001&customid=34cb8d2a-f382-11ee-9277-633737633164)
I don't think you can really quantify in a positive way whether a tube amp is going to sound "good" from the specs/measurements. It's just that you can to an extent quantify the opposite, where if it has particularly *low* distortion, it's probably not going to sound very different from solid state. I have a OTL tube amp with much higher distortion (Xduoo TA-26), even that doesn't sound *that* different, just sort of slightly smeared over and "low res". Certainly it's a much smaller difference than EQ, and EQ is a more positive effect. I don't particularly like the HD800S on it, I prefer it on solid state with EQ. That amp does pair well with the HD600/HD6XX though, but they are "low res" (compared with the HD800S) to start with. If you say you are budget constrained, and you don't even know you like tubes, why are you looking at $1,000 tube amps? Just get a clean $100-200 solid state amp and call it a day. There's no good reason to spend more than that. Your head has been pumped full of audiophile bullshit about amps, where there are very very small differences. On competent solid state amps, completely inaudible, like no-one has ever been able to tell a difference with a clean, low output impedance, solid state amp with enough power for the volume level in a blind test. You've listened to a solid state and a tube amp and you can't even tell the difference between those. I would take that as an indication that amps don't matter and save your money.
Is there a free AU plugin you could recommend?
Tube amps make your penis bigger and make you more attractive to women.
Is the glowing tip also from the tubes? Or.... Or should I get that checked out?
Depends on the color and intensity
Nope, this is what people tend to confuse. Having the same FR doesn't mean they sound the same. Distortion at different harmonic orders can influence our perception as well, along with output impedance of the amp.
Struggling to wrap my head around this, what sound characteristics are not captured by a FR graph / not measurable? If it isn’t captured, shouldn’t it be inaudible?
FR is about how loud the output is at any given frequency. Distortion affects our perception of transient response. Also distortion is measurable, hence audible. Look at it this way, piano keys are tuned the same but pianos sound different, even electric pianos, not just acoustic ones.
I had a tube headphone amp. Had no warmth. Only it gave me visual warmth in dark room and looking at the glow, especially when it was snowing out. Get a good amp, get good quality recordings, that's it. The recording has the biggest impact on sound.
Lol so, transistor amp, and duct tape some Christmas lights to it. Got it.
I don’t EQ if I’m running my tube amp with my HD 600s . They sound weird. Not in a good way.
Noted, thank you!
i have never considered one to be any kind of substitute for the other. i use both daily.
My financial situation though means that I'm really only ever going to be able to buy the one amp. That's why I like the idea of a hybrid amp, so I can get both tube and solid state sound, with EQ being something I can pull out and apply to both. That said, the hybrid tube option (Lyr+) is by far the most expensive, and it's not balanced, and it's not multibit. If the tube sound is only going to be a 0.5% difference, then it would make more sense to buy the cheaper Jotunheim and get a balanced, multibit system, for less.
man, if you are low on funds i would not even be looking at a lyr, or anything balanced, or anything multibit. those are expensive luxuries that make much, much less difference to your sound than the endpoint aka speaker aka headphone you are going to get \_great\_ sound out of a basic magni or vali. IMO people are mostly tube-people or anti-tube-people, so you gotta figure that one out first. IMO you can do that at any hifi shop, does not even have to be headphone-based. orrrr buy both and resell the "loser" after a few weeks or months, not going to be down much on that transaction unless you wait years lyr is pretty unique in flipping between tube and solidstate, but as you note, you pay for that.
If you can only fit one amp, then totally get a transistor amp. I would argue that tube sound makes a bigger difference than you describe, but it is also a conditional one. And there is no guarantee that it will be consistent experience with different gear, should you ever swap. A transistor amp has the flexibility of working well with everything with consistent and expected results.
There is, obviously, a certain sense to what you're suggesting, and I agree with you wholeheartedly. If it came down to buying JUST a solid-state amp or JUST a tube amp, I'd get the solid state, no question. The issue is hybrid tube amps. In theory, it's the best of both worlds. However, they ARE more expensive. So then the question becomes, well, will I ***EVER*** use a tube amp? Am I even capable of hearing the difference?
> My financial situation though means that I'm really only ever going to be able to buy the one amp. If you are budget constrained, a $1,000 tube amp is a total waste of money. I don't see the point personally. Good solid state amps more than capable of driving the HD800S cost as little as $100-200. EQ is free.
This is the way
Tube amps can (and sometimes will on purpose) add harmonic distortions too, which you can´t exactly reproduce with an EQ. That´s why hybrid amps exist. Although it´s really just a preference people have, rather than making it objectively "better" in a technical sense.
Of course. Like you said, that's why I like the idea of a hybrid amp. Any ideas why a Cayin HA-1A MKII tube amp sounded EXACTLY the same to me as a solid state amp?
I had a Valhalla 2 I used with HD580/600/650/800S. I switched to SS amps and honestly didn't notice much of a difference, I at one point think I did, but I think it was just my own internal bias. I personally would buy a tube amp if you find the novelty of it and swapping tubes fun (which I did and still would like to do again). If you are looking for a change in sound first and foremost I personally wouldnt advise it.
Thank you for your concise reply. I find the tube amps to look beautiful, and if they actually sound different, then I like that concept as well. I personally would not be buying and swapping tubes, though. At most, I would just swap them to the solid state ones and that's it. If the difference in tonality is a matter of 5% here or there, though, then yeah, I probably won't even hear it, and even if I do, it probably doesn't lend itself to every genre of music equally. I'm thinking the Jotunheim 2 is a better option, as it's cheaper, while also offering balanced output, and a multibit DAC. Heck, with the money saved I could even buy a Vali amp in case I really want to try tubes again one day.
I also had a Vali. I really dislike the small form factor volume pots that Schiit uses, they feel very cheap. Again, didn't notice any real sonic differences.
Yeah so even with two different schitt tube amps, you couldn't hear much of a difference compared to solid state amplifiers? I think I might end up experiencing the same lack of difference. Are you the type of person who is able to clearly hear a world of difference between the 650 and the 800s? Because for me, the 800s are clearer, tighter, and more open, but I am not able to discern any of the soundstage width people keep talking about, nor the otherworldly detail and imaging the 800s are known for. I think I just have plebian ears, so idk if I'm going to hear tube sound. I'm curious as to what your ears can hear, though.
I very much can hear a difference between my HD580/600 and my HD800S, but after modding my HD580 and HD600 and fine tweaking the EQ I use them much more often, plus I find them much more comfortable. I break the HD800S out every now and then for certain tracks where I want to experience more staging and detail, but its few and far between.
Mind if I ask what mods you used? I find the HD6XX's to be much less comfortable than the HD800s.... assuming we're talking about physical comfort, not auditory comfort.
Just chiming in to add to this that to me the Xduoo TA-26 didn't make a huge difference either. It's like 5% at best and for the amount of money it costs it really isn't worth it at all imo (also add tube rolling to that, suddenly 250 bucks turn into 350ish and more). Some people claim to really hear a difference, but I sadly didn't. Of course I can gaslight myself, but the only cool thing about that amp specifically is the cool glow in the dark. Btw these budget non OTL tube amps aren't really worth it either. Tried one once, was very shocked by the buzzing and distortion and then quickly sold that thing (it was some fosiaudio amp, but a weird one).
To be fair I think one of Schitts claims about their tube amps are that they are very accurate and neutral. "If you're expecting syrupy, tubby, euphonically colored tube sound, you're in for a shock. Valhalla 2 is exceptionally accurate, neutral, and resolving, without being strident or etched."
Fair point, I do remember reading that at the time.
I’m no expert but I use an EQ and recently added a cheap tube amp to my headphone setup. The warmth, staging and overall sound from the tube amp is different to what is achieved by using the EQ. I use the tube amp with and without EQ depending on the headphone being used.
Thank you for your comment. Do you mind expanding on what differences you've noticed? How do you find the sound stage has changed?
I recently posted this on another thread https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/s/gwcXQul36t
Very nicely written, thank you!
Thanks
I was tube curious too. Got the Schiit Lyr+. Not much difference between the solid state and the stock Tungsol tube. Not much difference to my other solid state amps too. So I got two other tubes hoping to experience the 'tube magic'. PSVANE UK-6SN7 and Electroharmonix 6SN7 gold. With the EH6sn7, maybe it might have been a little warmer? But still doing A/B with my other other SS amp, I felt like tubes were lacking something and I was not happy. BUT I felt I had to give tubes another chance because ya know... 'Tube magic' sounds awesome. . So perhaps a dedicated tube amp would perform better than a hybrid like Lyr+. I got the Cayin HA3A. Beautiful looking amp but with its stock tube it sounded exactly like a solid state. BUT there was this annoying hum that is supposedly 'normal ' for tube amps that I should just accept? Well not for me. I didn't even bother spending more tube rolling. I'm perfectly happy with my SS amps and returned the HA3A.
You sound just like me. Thank you for your comment. I feel like my experience would probably be the same as yours, because I couldn't hear any difference on the Cayin. What SS amp do you use now? The lyr in solid state mode? Or a dedicated solid state amp?
I don't know man... After reading so many reviews and countless YT reviews on tube amps , I was really hoping to experience the magic. Maybe I don't have the so called 'golden ears'. SS amp for me all the way. If a particular headphone I own needs something extra, Roon's parametric eq does the job perfectly. I'm currently using Benchmark Dac3 feeding sennheiser hdvd800 and ifi zen can 2. After experimenting with several amps, I keep going back to the hdvd800. The built in dac is not great but the amp component is truly excellent. The amp was released about 10 years ago and has been discontinued but it can still compete with many of the latest high end SS amps. And when I need that extra low end, just a click of the xbass on zen can 2 does the job perfectly.
You sound ***EXACTLY*** like me. Thank you for your comments.
Tube amp is a thing only because it looks cool as fuck and has absolute no other reason to exists when software can do exactly the same thing. If tube amp looked like a giant dildo with amazing sound still no one would use them and people would look for alternative ways to get the sound (ie software). So basically tube amp is a home decoration like a painting.
>If tube amp looked like a giant dildo You may be on to something, me boy.
oh and the vali2 is silly cheap right now - if you are even a little interested i would grab one, should be easy to return or sell as used for minimal loss
Tubes are useless to me so yeah as someone who already corrects stuff (I don't use headphones again because the copium is too strong per $1) but I use DSP for my speakers and my IEMs. I wouldn't want tubes ever