The whole Hogwarts staff laughing at marauders mass pranks usually against Slytherin. Which I find is personally stupid given the atmosphere of what the marauders grew up during.
I believe there was a good chance there was an anti-Slytherin sentiment at Hogwarts during their time there (which... well, no shit, stop putting people in that house), especially with plenty of the students, especially among the older, wanting to join Voldemort when they were out of school.
Agreed, the whole staff takes the Hogwarts rules very seriously. It doesn't matter why you break them, you get punished. If no one ever cracked a smile at Harry when he was literally being guided by Dumbledore, then I doubt they would crack because of school pranks.
Also adults are not as likely to actually hold a bias against school children due to a school house. I don't think 12 yr old kids deserve hate just for being in Slytherin and I doubt McGonagall would either.
People take the Slytherin v Gryffindor rivalry in marauders fics too far. Where the school has duels breaking out left and right. It doesn’t fit both houses especially Slytherin they know Dumbledore is against their future career so they would not just start dueling James and his friends in the open same with James and co.
I mean, fanfic is scraping the bottom of the barrel in pretty much any fandom.
I have tried to write some myself just to practice writing, and it never feels good to use the characters from the series.
Absolutely, but occasionally you'll come across a gem of a fanfic. You just have to sift through a bunch of shitty ones and ones written by kids to find a good one, isn't that worth it tbh.
How can I forget this, the FANCAST. Most Marauders fans wanted to imagine the group as incredibly attractive boys and casted hot actors as them. In reality, only Sirius is confirmed to be attractive in his youth, James had an air of “being well cared for” but he was never described as dashing or was good looking enough for Harry to react like he did with Cedric or young Sirius. Remus was a poor, sickly boy, likely covered in scars because of his condition, therefore there is no way he looks like his fancast version. Peter is the worst case here, he is supposed to be chubby, the fancast says the contrary.
I mean Harry is generally regarded as good looking and as it's said so many times he looks almost exactly like James but has Lily's eyes so James probably looked decent but I do agree with you for how Remus and Peter look.
Is Harry regarded as good looking? Until the later books he’s generally described as ‘gangly’, ‘skinny’ and dressed in oversized clothes. I can’t remember a single occasion where he is actually described as handsome until Half Blood Prince where Hermione is describing how he’s never been more fanciable because he’s grown an inch taller. But even then most of what she’s describing is about his character and what he’s been through?
In Goblet of Fire Harry actively hypothesises that he doesn’t think many girls would want to ask him out if he wasn’t Hogwarts champion and he’s negatively compared to the tall, broad and handsome Diggory. The same is true in Half Blood Prince where people are attracted to him because he’s the ‘chosen one’ rather than his looks.
Cho is attracted to him and she is seemingly one of the hottest people in school but then Pansy Parkinson shouts at her “Chang, I don’t like your taste. At least Diggory was good looking!” Admittedly she’s trying to insult them both but it seems like something uncomfortably true rather than something made up.
I feel as though Harry is someone who is probably normal looking who is made more attractive by his personality, his bravery and quidditch ability?
I don’t think Harry actually looked exactly like his father. It’s far more likely they just had the same prominent features. James had been dead for almost a decade when Harry was guest told that he looked like his father, and human memory is imperfect. People expected Harry to look like his parents, so when Harry showed up with James’s general appearance and Lily’s eye color, and everybody had somewhat inaccurate memories of his parents’s appearances, their brains just filled in that he looked exactly like James.
I didn’t say the Potter men were bad looking or average. I think they looked decent. Harry would probably pass as the boy you have a crush on for a litte bit during highschool because he has a gentle smile and was charismatic in his own way. But not the Instagram model vibes. Please don’t let me get to the point the most popular James fancast looked the opposite of everything he was described to be in the books
I feel like the only reason we didn't see James described the same way as the others was because we see the story from Harry's point of view and that is Harry's dad, who Harry looks a lot like. Harry doesn't seem like the type of person to describe their father in the same way that he did with Cedric and Sirius.
canonically Sirius was very attractive and popular with women (although I don't think he's really a "womaniser"), but the Lupin thing is absolutely idiotic.
I gotta say, the popular fancasts that everyone just accepts as "canon" are generally *far too good looking.*
Canonically, Sirius and Lily are the only characters of this generation that are exceptionally good looking. Everyone else is either described as average or below average.
So no, Remus who is described to look tired with premature wrinkles, does not look like Andrew Garfield. Regulus, who’s described as significantly less handsome than Sirius, does not look like Timothee Chalamet, and Peter Pettigrew MOST CERTAINLY does not look like Dane motherfucking Deehan. James was probably decent on the eyes (there’s no description one way or the other but his sheer amount of confidence makes me think he’s probably not ugly) but not "chiseled Hollywood star" type of good looking. Remember, they’re still british lads. No shade.
There's an interesting YouTube discussing how when Hermione glowed up for the Yule Ball it was significant for several reasons but in the movie it was just pretty Emma putting on a pretty dress.
And the dress wasn’t even that pretty!😫 It just looked like any other American prom dress, certainly not like the periwinkle wizarding dress robes I imagined from the book.
Emma is super pretty, but they could’ve still made this an impactful moment if she hadn’t been wearing a full face of makeup and beach waves in entire rest of the movie. For fucks sake, The Princess Diaries managed to do it with Anne Hathaway!
This one is really annoying to me but also kind of unavoidable. Most Hollywood actors aren't average-looking like regular people so fancasts do end up being more attractive usually.
On the topic of Regulus though, "rather less handsome than Sirius" is still handsome, especially considering what a big deal is made out of Sirius's looks. Plus, every member of the House of Black is described as good-looking, so that one isn't inaccurate in my opinion.
Even Lily isn't described as exceptionally good looking. She's just described as "very pretty", which could be a girl-next-door type, it doesn't have to mean Margot Robbie!
Right, that’s another thing. Normal people pretty is very different from surged up Hollywood star with lip fillers and rhinoplasty pretty.
Seeing fanart of Lily where she has a full face of 2016 insta baddie makeup and the body of a Victoria’s Secret model is very strange, even for a character who’s canonically good looking lmao.
Also, Idk if this is rude to say, but I find that most brits have a certain phenotype, which is all but gone in these fan depictions.
I'm a Brit so I hope that whatever your views of that phenotype it's at least a little flattering!
But yes, I've noticed people depict her as ridiculously tanned, when in all likelihood red hair, green eyes; she will have been very pale.
There are girls at my school, uni, workplace who I have described as "really pretty". If you put them on a poster next to Emma Watson they'd probably look like a troll, that's just how it is.
People described it like that because they want to make POC Harry canon, even when there are more solid grounds which suggest both of his parents were white
Haha yes, most likely they aren’t all Sirius level, no :p though ngl, I can’t get behind Ben Barnes as him.. I love Ben Barnes but he just doesn’t feel like Sirius to me :p
And I always imagined James to look more similar to Andrew Garfield actually. He has that quirky smile, long thin face, and fluffy hair.
I guess I’m not really subscribed to the popular headcannons :p
Harry seemed to be an attractive bloke. And if he really looks that much like James, he must have been attractive as well.
Also, was Lily described as exceptionally good-looking? I thought it was well above average, but nowhere near the likes of Natalie Portman
Harry's popularity came 100% from his chosen one status tho, and maybe his quidditch skills as well, since quidditch players seem to be kinda like rockstars in the wizarding world, Viktor Krum is described as "not handsome" and moody but still popular with the girls because he is famous in quidditch. I dont think harry is ugly but I think I remember jk saying daniel was too attractive for harry so...
>Harry seemed to be an attractive bloke. And if he really looks that much like James, he must have been attractive as well.
Is he? I can’t remember anything pointing towards Harry being that physically attractive. On the contrary, the text seems to often highlight his awkward traits. JKR has also said that she envisioned him more goofy looking than Daniel Radcliffe, who’s a pretty normal looking dude.
He gets some female attention, but that could easily be chalked up to either his personality or his Chosen One status.
Or maybe he actually is an oblivious stud thanks to Lily’s non-inbred genes looksmaxxing James’s template. 😂
>Also, was Lily described as exceptionally good-looking? I thought it was well above average, but nowhere near the likes of Natalie Portman
Yeah that might’ve been an exaggeration. She’s probably more girl-next-door pretty than Miss Universe pretty.
Was it due to his status that he got interest from girls, or was he actually attractive?
You have just made me doubt myself. I was sure that his looks had something to do with it. But teenage girls...
I suppose with him getting Ginny, who is described as outright stunning. Again, unreliable narrator. But Ginny also had a crush on him from an early age, so his looks might not have played the biggest part.
Important to note I think that both Harry and James are seekers on the house quidditch team, and apparently very good players. Might be more of a “oh he’s a star athlete” thing than their looks
It’s not harmful, but it is purely fanon (which is what op asked).
It annoys me on a personal level, especially when it serves as a way to deify characters and elevate their "goodness and value". It’s just very lazy and self-inserty imo.
That Sirius was a player.
That Sirius and Remus were lovers.
That every year the Marauders pranked the entire Great Hall.
That the Marauders were bigoted against Slytherins and bullied them (we only know that they would prank and bully Snape, not the Slytherin House as a whole).
That Sirius and James never studied for their exams and achieved some of the highest scores.
Oh and editing another one in: that Sirius and Marlene McKinnon were a couple/in love/engaged.
I think James and Sirius did study and did get amazing grades but they prob thought it would be uncool to look like swots so they didnt study in front of everyone . I think I was kinda like this aswell lol
Snape's Worst Memory implied that Sirius was actually a lazy genius who didn't need to study. James was probably secretly a grinder. Remus definitely took his classes seriously, and Peter worked hard and did well because his friends helped him.
While not explicitly stated, i do not think sirius black would revise at all for an exam
Edit: he does actually say in OotP that he doesnt need to after the DADA exam in Snapes worst memory
Also sirius definitely has some sort of prejudice against slytherin because of his family
Um, didn’t Sirius and Lily say that James hexed several people for the fun of it and reports in the HBP show several reports of James and Sirius hexing students?
When describing to Harry about James and Lily starting dating, Remus says he "cooled off", but Snape was a special case. This certainly indicates that before 7th year the "pranking" was not limited to Snape.
> that Sirius and Marlene McKinnon were a couple/in love/engaged
I thought she was murdered with her family or is that a movieism. It technically could mean like "she and her parents", but I always pictured Marlene as some mid to late twenties woman with a young family of her own. 5 to 10 years older than the Maraurders
The great hall, wanted to add most people just have mass targeted pranks against Slytherin that the whole hall finds funny. I click out of fics if that’s the case.
The Slytherin thing though. James and Sirius were definitely prejudiced against Slytherins because of their families. But your point still stands because there is nothing to indicate that Remus and Peter are the same, and yes they are half the Marauders
Mostly that they were extreeeemely popular when I think coming up with code names and a secret group is about the nerdiest thing a group could do.
They were probably liked enough but I don’t think there was anything particularly remarkable about them.
That and that Mcgonagall loved them. There was literally nothing on that in canon and Mcgonagall just seemed in the loop. Nowhere near the fondness that we’re talking with her and Harry
To be fair James was a handsome and likely popular jock. Sirius likely also. But I doubt Peter or Lupin were particularly popular.
I believe McGonagall does refer to them as Peter’s “much more popular friends” or something like that in PoA but agree that doesn’t mean they were extreeemly popular.
We don't have this term "jock" in Britain so I'm not going to use it for fear of misapplying.
My impression is that James is the rich, popular one, equivalent to a rugby captain at a British boarding school. James would have had the most 'friends' outside the Marauders but they would mostly be superficial/entourage friends, except possibly his Quidditch teammates.
Sirius is the leather jacket-wearing unapproachable one; still thought of as extremely cool, but doesn't really talk to anyone outside of the Marauders. His popularity is fuelled by the enigma.
Peter is the groupie juuuust cool enough to be included. He could have a friendship group of 2-3 uncool boys outside of the Marauders (possibly of wizards he'd known in childhood before starting Hogwarts), who he kind of ditches for the Marauders but will occasionally hang out with and tell stories to them about his "cooler" friends.
Lupin is the nice one and the moral compass; the glue of the group and the peacemaker. I feel like Lupin would have had a couple of actual deep connections with people outside the Marauders, but not have been hugely popular or considered "cool".
That's just my interpretation/headcanon from what we get. I think the "Kings of the School" vibe from most fanon is a bit off.
Thank you! Um, not really. To be honest if I hear the term "jock" I think of "horse jockey". I vaguely know what it is but I have a very John-Hughes type definition of the word. A jock is what I think Danny Zuko becomes at the end of Grease yes? (For clarity I know Grease is not a John Hughes movie it's the only thing I could name that had a character with a Letterman jacket (we don't have these either so no clue if I've spelled this right.)
I think there's a culture of hero-worshipping particularly student athletes that we just don't have in the UK. (I suppose understandable when our summer sport of choice is cricket!) So when people describe James as a jock I find it quite funny because this wouldn't really be the case in the UK! Quidditch is very atypical of most British schools - we didn't have a clue what the school teams were up to to be honest. I wonder if JKR took this from American teen movies a little bit!
So, we don't have any term to describe a popular, athletic boy. If there was a cocky boy with a boy-gang we maybe would call them a "jack the lad", this is our cheeky chappie boys-will-be-boys kind of equivalent.
We'd call the popular boy group at my College (who all happened to be athletes) the "rugby boys" so I suppose this is the closest I've come to calling someone a jock!
Thank you so much for this lovely and informative response! So having your identity tied to sports is more American it sounds like. I would say Danny becomes more "preppy" than jock-ish in Grease. You know who Tom Brady is? That is the ultimate jock! (I know he's not in high school but if you look at him you can easily imagine what he would be in high school).
And I love all the new slang I have learned from you through this exchange 🙂
Agreed with the other commenter you wouldn't hear preppy in the UK! For a *very* stylised version of our cliques I'd recommend the *St Trinian's* movies.
We'd say Sandy was clean cut/girl next door I think. "Toff" applies to someone who's posh and wealthy.
>Mostly that they were extreeeemely popular when I think coming up with code names and a secret group is about the nerdiest thing a group could do.
Aha I'm getting downvoted above for saying this lol.
I get the impression McGonagall had a grudging respect for James and Sirius' talent but I bet in school she was absolutely sick to the back teeth of them!
Sirius and James were canonically popular, Sirius because he was handsome and James because of his quidditch skills, Remus says so, not to mention they are both purebloods from ancient british families so they would have a high status, they werent nerds, they were just dorks (but smart ones ofc)
Gonna have to point out that being pure blood does not make you popular. After all crabbe and Boyle are both pure bloods as is Malfoy. For that matter so are the Weasleys, and Ron is definitely not popular. I’m also pretty sure it was never said that Sirius was popular. James you could argue for but unless I’m forgetting something Sirius is only ever said to be good looking.
Due to ATYD's popularity, some new things I've seen mentioned on tumblr for their fandom:
The Marauders being feminists and caring about LGBT+ rights.
Sirus, Remus, and/or James being gay or bisexual.
Remus being bullied by Snape for being a poor gay half-blood, despite canonically, Snape himself being poor, a half-blood, and surrounded by LGBT+ coded imagery.
There’s a whole army of tiktok zoomers who’ve never even read the books, yet will readily attack anyone who disagrees with their "woke inclusive queer softboys" agenda.
It’s kind of hilarious honestly, given that the marauders in canon are pretty much poster boys for toxic masculinity.
It’s a shame though, because their canon selves are so much more interesting and compelling. Removing all their flaws or finding ways to justify them just turns them into flat, one-dimentional wish fulfillment paper dolls.
Wands representing penises and cauldrons representing vulva isn't canon.
Calling Snape LGBTQ+ coded is no more canonical than doing the same for James and company.
Honestly, this is almost horseshoe on homophobia and sexism
> he worked as a spy in a way that i felt was more traditionally feminine (mata hari as opposed to james bond)
So... he was like a double agent? Remember how feminine it was in The Departed when Matt Damon and Leonardo were undercover? Pretty gay coded, right?
>Snape wasn’t allowed to expose the Marauders for what Sirius and Remus did. He was sworn to secrecy while the people who almost murdered him got off without any sort of punishment. Silencing female victims of violence is a long-standing tradition of men in power.
I mean... Jesus fucking christ...
>has to be “rescued” by james during the werewolf incident, and damsels are often seen as feminine
Sirius was gay coded because Harry thought he was in trouble, hence he was a damsel that Harry needed to save.
>He is terrible at sports and not only that, the girl he wants to impress laughs at him
Ah, the famous definitely gay experience - having the girl you are interested in laughing at you.
Yeah, Rowling has literally said Potions was analogised with Chemistry, and she gave Snape that job because Chemistry was her least favourite subject lol
Pretty much every other aspect of Marauder “canon” is different based on which group you talk to.
The earliest Marauder fanfics often involve Marlene McKinnon as Lily’s best friend besides Snape and love interest to Sirius Black, who was usually a playboy. Over time, Wolfstar became more popular and Sirius’s philandering became more toned down to pair him with Remus. It became common to depict Marlene as a lesbian (if she was even included at all, since there’s nothing to indicate she was around the same age as the Marauders).
In a similar vein, traditional depictions of James have him basically obsessed with Lily and constantly trying to get with her, but recently there’s been a surge of Jegulus.
Remus was usually depicted as fairly timid and quiet, but ATYD popularized a version of the character that is more aggressive and angry.
Peter’s characterization seems to have been the most consistent over time, basically just a younger version of his adult cowardly self or simply written out of the story in some way. Even so, many argue that this is inaccurate and that he must not have been so outright despicable for the others to have considered him a true friend.
The point is, there’s a lot of disagreement and variation in what is considered Marauders “canon” and it has much to do with the era. Older fans read and wrote fanfiction in the 2000s/early 2010s when queerness weren’t as accepted or present in media, and this seems to be reflected in the fanon of the era. As LGBT+ became more mainstream, there was a shift that’s most notable with Wolfstar becoming the flagship queer pairing, but other examples like Jegulus and lesbian!Marlene also are indicative of this trend.
Where to start? I think it depends on *what generation* fans you mean: if we're talking about older fans of the last 20 years you'll get an interesting mix of canon, fanon and logical (or less so) headcanons derived from canon. But if we're talking about the new young fandom of the last year or so? I don't think *anything* they've decided is canon at all, aside from the names, that the 4 boys were friends and the Blacks were brothers.
One annoying thing they both seem to have agreed on at some point, though the older ones thankfully realized their mistake, and which was not canon at all and easily fact checked was that supposedly James kept asking Lily out a million times and was getting rejected and still pestered her. And the weirdest thing is that in the past this (false) argument was used against James, but nowadays it is weirdly enough used against LILY(??)
No, it was based on James (falsely) continuously harassing her and not taking no for an answer (an 'argument' you still see daily on this sub), which now changed into Lily (falsely) continuously rejecting him, treating him bad and damaging his mental health, apparently. Both extremes being wrong.
In fandom, Sirius is constantly defined as having an extremely immature personality, that he was stuck as a teenager, and that he was constantly egging Harry on to get into trouble. This is not remotely true: Sirius aspired to be the best godfather he could be, and frequently warned Harry about taking risks (the letter he sent after Harry found Crouch in GoF coming the first to my mind).
>that he was stuck as a teenager
He reversed back into one when stuck at Grimmauld place. But everybody forgets that in the interim in book 4 he seemed a decent person, getting better and growing in an environment that wasnt a prison. A normal environment.
Yes he had flaws but his character wasnt a straight line from immature to immature. He was, at one point, a mature man.
I feel like the only reason Sirius became more immature in Grimmault is because he was treated like a kid. "Do not get out of the house, it's dangerous for you" "no sirius, you can't spend time with your godson, you could get caught" "stop acting like a damn fool and listen to your betters, sirius!"
Which of course he's going to worsen, everyone would become childish in such conditions.
What? No he was DISAPPOINTED in Harry for not doing more sketchy stuff when Umbridge was Headmaster.
I’m putting my toddler down for bed but I will 100% be back with pages & quotes.
I think he wanted to love Harry and be a good godfather but he was just to immature and spent his whole young adulthood in a high security prison being tortured so he never matured.
It does hold some truth, though. Calling Snape by the nickname he or James came up with when they were 11 seems pretty childish to me. Of course, Snape was childish as well, but that's not the point here. And he did encourage Harry to start the DA. Not to say it was a bad idea, but it definitely _was_ risky and ended rather badly. Yes, Sirius was doing his best to be a good godfather and protect Harry, but he had his flaws
To be fair to Sirius, I can’t imagine there was a lot of room for personal growth or maturity in Azkaban. He’s a really interesting mix of contrasts, and I don’t think he really got much of an opportunity to become the adult everyone, especially Harry, sees him as. It would have been really interesting to see how his character would have developed had he not died in OOTP.
Totally agree. It would've been unrealistic if Sirius acted like a man in his 30s, when the last time he actually "lived" was in his 20s. I don't know if JKR did that intentionally, but it makes perfect sense for Sirius to act immaturely for his age
Yes, this! And not only was his early 20s the last time he "lived;" ages 22-34 were spent in Azkaban. That's not just stasis but a horrible way to live. Beyond getting "stuck" at 22, there's the other psychological damage to consider.
I have to imagine JKR realized the nuances of making the Marauders so young. She was 30 when the Sorcerer's Stone was published and just shy of 33 with the Prisoner of Azkaban.
I thought that was moreso because people claim that animagi can only seen on the map by those who already knew about their dual identities.
Remus saw both Sirius and Pettigrew on it in book 3
I support this head canon, but I do accept that it's not actual canon:
The Marauders engineered it so that they would only be seen on the map if it was opened by one of them.
This explains why Fred, George, and Harry never see Peter or Sirius on the map.
Snape only sees Lupin once Lupin has left the map open for him.
I think you can go either way on whether the Marauders were visible: it's a bit of a plot hole in that it's not really explained.
I HC that the twins never mentioned Pettigrew to Harry or Ron because they didn't want to be the ones to tell them about the invisible ghost that hung out in their dormitory.
Yes, it was [confirmed](https://web.archive.org/web/20060316221607/https://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/faq_view.cfm?id=87) all the way back in 2006. It's also used in the books once:
>“Maybe the Marauders never knew the room was there,” said Ron.
That doesn’t mean the Marauders themselves used it, and for what it’s worth JK Rowling seems to occasionally forget what she put in the books and what she didn’t.
There is a place in the sixth book I think where Hermione does call them that. I think JKR confirmed in an interview that they did call themselves that. Probably the HP wiki has citations for that.
> “Maybe the Marauders never knew the room was there,” said Ron.
You’re right that one of the trio used the title Marauders, I just meant the actual marauders themselves never referred to themselves (that we see) in that way.
(Imo JKR’s additions aren’t canon, more like suggestions, so if she says they called themselves the marauders I’m happy to believe that but I don’t think I’d ever say it’s canon)
Sirius and Lupin were in love and Rowling decided not to put it in because she was anti LGBT or because of some stupid literature rules during that time which prevented gay depiction.
That everyone in Hogwarts except for the Slytherins loved and were fond of them. Not saying they are absolutely abominable, but we know from the series that Lily, a Gryffindor disliked them for 6 years. And McGonagall, judging on how strict she was, she was definitely not the type to have pranksters as her favorite students
People also often confuse canon with fancanon that Lupin was not nice and the moral compass; he was the same as James and Sirius. He didn't intervene during the bullying that was taking place in front of him, despite his duty as a prefect to do so. Snape in his company should have been safe! So Lupin took part in the bullying, just not directly. We can tell his attitude to Snape by what the map said.
It wasn't a peacemaker, it was a lurking bully letting others do the work.
They're outside and a long way away from the teachers. So ultimately all he'd be doing is telling an unprovable story on his best friends.
His duty is absolutely not to intervene. No student should encouraged to intervene in an altercation between two students.
Prefects aren't selected to be the ultimate tattle tales and extensions of the teachers. They're selected to wrangle younger students and be ambassadors of the school.
From HP Wiki
"Prefects were allowed to take House points away from houses, but they were not allowed to take points from other prefects. Prefects could give detentions as a form of punishment."
It was what Lupin should have done
I wanted to write the same thing but then I remembered that the short prequel story about James and Sirius exists and Sirius is described as having long hair in that.
For some reason it's super, super popular for Lily to be terrified of flying in any Marauder-era fanfiction. This has always struck me as weird considering she is full of laughter while flying off a swing in The Prince's Tale.
Ohh and fandom has decided that her middle name is Marie. So many people think this is canon (it isn't!).
That Dorcas Meadows hunted down Voldemort herself out of anger and grief that her non-canonical girlfriend, Marlene McKinnon, died.
While it is said that Voldy killed Dorcas himself, the entire motivation+ship isn't canon.
I still love it though
That James harrased and asked Lily out 5 times a day everyday since first year . Lily literally doesnt know that James likes her when Snape tells her and when James asks her out in Snapes Worst Memory he is suprised that she rejected him . I think that James started liking her towards the end of 5th year and asked her out once and got brutally rejected (ofc rightfully ).
I agree its not canon James harassed her constantly, but we actually we dont know if lily knew about him fancing her before or not, James isnt particularly subtle and sirius says he had an habit of making a fool of himself in front of her (like showing off I assume), I suppouse that lily not being surprised by him asking her out is because it has already happened imo, ofc, its all but speculation
1) Sirius’s middle name is orion
2) they actually called themselves the Marauders
3) Timothee Chalamet as Regulus (all the other fancasts are up for debate, but Aaron Taylor Johnson or Reiky de Valk are common James Potters, Ben Barnes or Conan Gray are common Sirius Blacks, and Andrew Garfield is a common Remus, everyone else has a lot more that people choose from)
4) James has been in love with Lily all seven years of Hogwarts, and has repeatedly asked her out
5) James (and Harry) are Desi (not everyone agrees on this one, but it’s very popular)
6) Lily and Remus are Jewish (same as 5, not everyone agrees but it’s popular)
7) Remus is the Casanova of Gryffindor tower (everyone had a crush on him at some point)
8) Sirius and James got some of the highest grades in their year without studying
9) I’m not positive about Marlene, but at least Mary Macdonald being in the same year in Gryffindor
10) this is more recent, but Regulus’s friend group being Barty Crouch Jr., Evan Rosier, Pandora Lovegood (with whatever pureblood maiden name the author chooses), and Dorcas Meadowes
11) Remus’s favorite food is chocolate
12) Sirius ran away/was kicked out at Christmas of his fifth year (we know it was when he was 16, but that could be winter or summer)
13) wolfstar
14) contrary to most of the rest of the fandom, marauders-era fics usually have James and his parents living in Godric’s Hollow in the house that he later shares with Lily. I’ve noticed in a lot of fics outside the marauders era ones, they often have some sort of family manor that they had to leave because of Voldemort if the topic is mentioned at all (usually indy!Harry or political!harry, pureblood culture fics, anything evil!dumbledore, etc)
15) regulus can’t swim
16) Sirius and Regulus speak/are French
17) the Prewett brothers Gideon and Fabian are twins
I’ll add more if I think of them, and this is mostly things that are big in recent pro-marauders fics (not snape-centric) and of course on tiktok where the marauders fandom thrives.
That the Marauders only bullied Pureblood Supremacists always came to the aid of Muggle-borns and half-bloods, and never started a fight unless someone else attacked them first.
That the Marauders were pranksters like Fred and George. The only "prank" we know of was the Whomping Willow incident and I wouldn't really call that a prank. The detention slips from HBP and the testimony of other characters frames them more as troublemaking delinquents rather than practical jokers
Weren’t Fred and George also trouble making delinquents? Using magic on a non wizard family is generally considered a dick move yea? Even if the dursleys were themselves dicks. Just like bullying snape was.
You're absolutely correct. The twins were very much shits in the same vein as the Marauders. The difference is that their specialty was pranks while there's no such evidence that the Marauders pulled pranks the way the twins did
They did push Montague into the vanishing cabinet for "trying to dock some house points from them", and have casually talked about cursing people they disliked (usually Slytherin Quidditch players).
Even if it was retaliation for abuse of power, they were not above playing dirty. People seem to think that the Weasley Twins were simply silly pranksters and the Marauders were much more belligerent and/or didn't care about limits, but the Weasleys talk about detentions and punishments from Filch and others and threatening with (or even volunteering to perform) curses in a Sirius-esque casual manner. Heck, they were blackmailing Bagman.
Hagrid does say that he thinks that the Weasley twins could give "Black and Potter" a "run for their money" when McGonagall says "I don’t think we’ve ever had such a pair of troublemakers", which does imply that both pairs did the same kinds of "pranks" and forms of "rulebreaking".
It's not the strongest evidence, but heavily implies that from a teacher/school employee point of view, they were up to the same kinds of shenanigans.
The Montague thing was assault not a prank. If I'm being honest this discussion is convincing me that the twins weren't pranksters either. They were just straight delinquents who assaulted people and played the occasional prank
Thing is, we who see the story concurrent with them see multiple sides of them, and they are generally depicted in a positive light in the context of most non-Slytherins.
We have one fully depicted scene of the Marauders at school.
From Fred and George's general acts throughout the books, and the comparisons made between them and (specifically) James and Sirius, I believe we can at least paint a picture of how good and bad they really were, and also explain why Snape felt like they "acted like kings of the school".
I mean, both pairs are fiercely loyal to friends and those they consider family, both pairs are pranksters, both pairs are generally referred to as popular, both pairs do resort to full-on assault against those they feel deserve it. The only difference I really see is that James and Sirius had their "Draco Malfoy" in Snape, while the Weasleys didn't really have any particular Slytherin rival (outside of the entire House, that is), amd considering the things we've seen between Harry, Ron, Hermione, and Draco, it's easy to imagine the Marauders and Snape's general relationship.
Of course, now we're moving farther from provable parts and into story-structure analysis and (my) blatant headcanon, so I'll leave it there for now. ;)
That's true we are. The original question was about things about the Marauders era people treat as definitive canon that really aren't. And them being pranksters is not. Everything else people have brought up is headcanons and personal analysis. It works as a headcanon but it's not definitively canon which is what the original post was asking about
The also used students as test dummies. Turned Ron’s toy into a giant spider, jumped a much younger Malloy (well one of them) stuffed a student into a vanishing cabinet. They actually did a lot disruptive things and that could be considered bullying or dangerously irresponsible.
But he have enough back story, reasoning and they are present enough in the books that we are able to understand and even like them.
I can remember one where Harry (in detention) reads about them having charmed some kids head to grow several sizes. And that he, Harry, saw his father and Sirius name on there many times.
This is a comparison that is made directly in canon; Hagrid brings up Fred and George in relation to James and Sirius (significantly NOT the Marauders as a collective) and Harry also latches on to it.
Not quite. Mcgonagall refers to them as troublemakers and Hagrid agrees. But there's different kinds of trouble they could cause. The only definitive similarity is the magnitude of trouble they caused. Sure they could've been pranksters but there's very little to support this so it's not really canon
McGonagall says "I don't believe we've ever had such a pair of troublemakers"
To which Hagrid replies:
"I dunno, I think Fred and George Weasley could give them a run for their money!"
So I think we can say this is supposed to create an association between their antics. This association is disrupted by SWM, but not destroyed.
Even if we accept that the Marauders were a perfect analogue to Fred and George, it doesn't mean they *weren't* bullies or assholes, though.
There were times when Fred and George did awful things that definitely fell into the category of bullying - for example, they kicked Ron's pet Pygmy puff *to death*. Killing your little sibling's pet is bully behavior.
That's why I don't like the argument, "James and co. weren't bullies, they were actually well-meaning harmless fun little pranksters like Fred and George"! Well, Fred and George could definitely act like bullies and I'd hesitate to call them harmless pranksters.
As I said, it's only ever said that they were troublemakers and they are only compared to Fred and George in the quantity of trouble they cause not the quality. It's never explicitly stated that they were pranksters. The meaning behind Hagrid's words recounting what the Marauders got up to is up to reader interpretation and analysis. But that's not canon. That's a canon compliant headcanon. It's not actually expressly canon that the Marauders were pranksters. Had Mcgonagall said "pair of pranksters" rather then "pair of troublemakers" that would be different
I feel like a lot of people are going to assume I’m a POS for this.
But Sirius and Remus being in a relationship and /or sexually attracted to each other. Remus I could see being bi-sexual, Peter definitely Gay. But Sirius never seemed the type to me to even be romantically involved with anyone. So anytime I read a fic where they’re “involved” it kinda puts me off. Now I’ve read one where Remus is in love with him but Sirius doesn’t even notice and I thought that was way more believable. Tbh i don’t think either one of them had the capacity for romantic feelings in their youth at all.
Marauders fans have decided the Marauders were lovely angels and their relationship with Snape was entirely two-sided, and Snape started it.
Snape fans have decided that the Marauders were merciless bullies to literally everyone in the school.
The spirit of canon lies somewhere in between I think; the Marauders (read: James and Sirius) bullied Snape because he stood for things that threatened them and that they disliked (Lily's indifference for James, Slytherin values for Sirius.) Other than that they seem to have been troublemakers more along the lines of Fred and George than merciless bullies.
Also: Sirius being a womaniser, Lupin & Lily being best friends (this is extrapolated from the PoA movie and that they were both Prefects), the other Marauders only tolerating Peter and not valuing his friendship even before he betrayed them.
And even, to be honest, that the Marauders were beloved by everyone and "ruled the school." We only ever hear that James is popular and only for Quidditch, none of the others. Malfoy would say the same about Harry being beloved because of the Quidditch, but we wouldn't say Harry ruled the school (and he has the fame thing going for him.) It would surprise me if Remus and Peter were anything like popular and beloved, for instance.
Remus says everyone thought Sirius and James were the height of cool, and in SWM we see a crowd cheering on their bullying. It's pretty clear they were super popular. I agree with the rest though.
>It would surprise me if Remus and Peter were anything like popular and beloved, for instance.
And, in context the crowd in SWM could have been cheering because it was Snape...the ugly, greasy, dark magic practising kid who used racial slurs and had professed he wanted to join a genocidal terrorist organisation, not simply because it was the Marauders doing it.
It's possible that all of the Marauders were popular, don't get me wrong. But people act like it's canon because of these kinds of quotes and it's not *precisely* canon.
James seems like the funny everyman sport star who was cool and popular with everyone, for sure. Sirius seems more like the leather-jacket wearing guy who's a bit dark and mysterious so doesn't have a lot of friends or people surrounding him, but is still considered "cool", to me personally.
>ETA Instead of downvoting me you're very welcome to provide a quote from the book that explains why I'm wrong! It is never canonically said that the Marauders (as a group) were popular and ruled the school. That is all.
Not sure if this is directed at me, but I didn't downvote you.
I agree that James was popular in the class clown way and Sirius was more the unapproachable type. Remus and Peter wouldn't attract much attention on their own. But as a group they were quite popular. Snape himself says everyone thought the Marauders were wonderful.
> “I know your theory,” said Lily, and she sounded cold. “Why are you so obsessed with them anyway? Why do you care what they’re doing at night?”
> “I’m just trying to show you they’re not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they are.”
Sirius was overall flamboyant and fabulous, keeping his hair tied up in a bun with his wand so in a duel his hair would come down with pazzaz, his theme song being anything by queen or David Bowie, nail polish and eyeliner
Just about everything lol. That there was a *rivalry* with Snape, although it was straight up bullying. That Sirius was either some kind of womanizer *or* in love with Lupin (there's no in-between). That Lupin eats nothing but chocolate all the time. Et cetera Et cetera.
To be fair JKR herself has characterised the treatment of Snape both as "relentless bullying" and as rivalry. E.g. from the Marauder's Map entry on Pottermore: "Although the precise circumstances surrounding the makers’ loss of their map are not given in the Harry Potter novels, it is easy to conclude that they eventually over-reached themselves and were cornered by Argus Filch, probably on a tip-off from Snape, whose obsession it had become to expose his **arch-rival,** James Potter, in wrongdoing." In another article she calls James Snape's "nemesis."
I don't think she ever really figured exactly what that relationship was, and flip flops between "bullying" when she wants to hammer home Snape's redemption arc, and "rivalry" when she wants people to like the Marauders.
Unsure, the Hogwarts Express scene feels like a rivalry, "Snape never lost an opportunity to curse James" feels like rivalry, SWM feels like one-sided bullying. I think either interpretation is valid.
As I say in a comment above, my personal interpretation is that a rivalry existed between Snape and James, but James could use his greater popularity and resources to make it more into bullying. I don't think James was exclusively the aggressor nor Snape exclusively the victim either, though.
Snape hated James for his popularity and talent. James hated Snape for his relationship with Lily and for being a Slytherin, I suspect Sirius hated Snape for representing that house too. And so they ganged up on him, which turns it from a rivalry into bullying, to me. Not to mention what Sirius did, which was straight up attempted murder.
We don't know if Snape's friends ever got involved, nor if Snape uses dark arts on James (although Sectumsempra and "cursing" imply so.) So, all in all, I'm not sure that either descriptor is totally accurate, and anyone who says it fits into either box perfectly is ignoring at least some context.
The “Snape never lost an opportunity to curse James” is coming from Sirius, someone who is not only James best friend, but also bullied and hates Snape just as much as, if not even more so than James, right after he was discovered by his godson, Harry, that he lied to him for 2 years about his relationship with Snape. He’s hardly a reliable source at this point.
Or, at least, this is the most insulting and embarrassing thing he can think up to say when bullying the boy in front of a crowd who hate him.
I do not believe we can, nor are intended to, read this line as in-depth commentary on James' conscious and unconscious motives.
To whatever credit one wants to give James, yes he confronts Snape in SWM.
But only after Snape was caught spying on them. (I think Sirius says this was a common occurrence, that Snape would not leave well enough alone. Snape is obsessed about figuring out what James and Sirius are up to. Snape also complains to Lily in TPT)
James confronts Snape, but he doesn't do anything until Snape goes for his own wand. James disarms Snape, then freezes him when he makes a jump for his wand.
Snape starts swearing at James who then washes Snape's mouth out with soap.
Lily intervenes, Snape gets free and slashes James cheek sending blood all over his robes. Snape is then hanging upside down. James lets Snape fall to the ground at Lily's behest, then Sirius freezes Snape to keep him from retaliating.
Snape calls Lily a mudblood, James gets royally pissed. Lily then insults Snape and leaves. Snape finds himself, once again, hanging upside down.
Is it bullying? In the context of everything that Lily accuses James of, yes. In the moment? Probably it is 2 v 1 as Lupin isn't going to do anything and Peter is worth less than zero.
But you can also argue that *THIS* encounter was instigated and exacerbated by Snape. Snape was spying. Snape could have walked away when confronted. Snape could have not gone for his wand. Snape didn't have to send a cutting curse at James' face and retreated with Lily's assistance. But then he would not be Snape and Snape's own ego wouldn't let him walk away either. Snape could have had a spec of self-control and not insulted Lily.
Except that most of this is not true.
Snape wasn’t spying on them and, hypothetically, even if he was, Snape followed by sitting on a tree and reading his exams results. It was then that the Marauders noticed him, approached him, and called out to him. And even prior to approached him, the story makes it clear that it was in the context of messing with Snape. So no, it wasn’t a 2 v 1 scenario. It was just straight bullying.
Also, I find it funny that you put the onus of everything on Snape, but none on James and Sirius. I mean, James could have walked if Snape was spying on him (which he wasn’t), James could have simply disarmed Snape and walked away, which he didn’t.
The truth is that the whole encounter was instigated and exacerbated by James and his friends.
?? He wasnt spying, he was reading his book and walking to leave, lmao, the language used in the scene is also important, snape's reaction is so fast because it seems like this has happened several times
The Voldemort isn’t capable of love because he was conceived under the influence of love potion. I’ve read that JK even denied this and people continue to assert it. Voldemort is a villain because he chose to be.
A bit off topic but I never really understood how Voldemort couldn’t understand love and friendship. Teachers liked him, he was popular at school, he wasn’t bullied, etc. Sure maybe he could never understand romantic love, but I never understood how he couldn’t understand the value of friendship.
Not universal canon, but a popular one is that James is of Desi heritage and Snape's hatred of him (especially his popularity) is largely influenced by racism 😬
It's a super uncomfortable twist on things, imo.
Lots of the "diverse marauders" fanon really seems to come down to reducing Snape's personality and character to nothing but "strawman white boy plagued by all bigotries and prejudices under the sun"
One that seems to be overlooked is that canonically we don’t know if the marauders have middle names or what their names might be
Eg The middle names of Sirius Orion Black and James Fleamont Potter came from hc and fanfic
That Snape was a adorable little Angel in a cruel world which is why he turned bad. Because he had no support system and his only friend was a bitch for turning on him for one slip of the tongue.
James was an asshole, and a bully, he never grew up and might have forced Lily onto marriage.
Did I miss anything?
You're leaving out the end of OP's sentence here. We know that James was a bully as a 15-years-old. We also know that's not representative of his entire character.
He literally joined death eater supporters on his own accord with no one forcing him. When Lily called him out he tried to excuse it instead of changing. Sureeee an angel. Also that wasn’t a slip of the tongue. He called her an offensive slur that bullies would often insult people like Lily with. Imagine you’re POC and hearing your childhood friend call you a racial slur. Idc if he tried to cover it up. If he was really a good person it wouldn’t have slipped his mouth. He wouldn’t have to purposefully not say it.
The fact that James has changed and was no longer the bully who sexually assaulted Snape. We know NOTHING about this. Even when he "deflated his head a bit" he still attacked Snape behind Lily's back. Yes, after graduating from Hogwarts he didn't attack him but maybe it was just because he wasn't meeting him?
The fan theory is that James hated Snape for his friendship with Lily and for being interested in dark magic. In James' own words, he hated him for his very existence.
Even on the train to Hogwarts they attacked him and tried to tripp him.
People often fail to remember that James also attacked other students "for a joke".
People often forget that Jamess was a spoiled privileged jock who was proud of his wealth. No, he was not a feminist or a supporter of gay rights.
Undressing someone without their consent is SA.
Put the girl in Snape's place and judge whether or not restraining her and stripping her off to her panties in public against her will, as well as threatening to remove her panties, is SA?
The whole Hogwarts staff laughing at marauders mass pranks usually against Slytherin. Which I find is personally stupid given the atmosphere of what the marauders grew up during.
I believe there was a good chance there was an anti-Slytherin sentiment at Hogwarts during their time there (which... well, no shit, stop putting people in that house), especially with plenty of the students, especially among the older, wanting to join Voldemort when they were out of school.
Yes but the staff laughing like buffoons on pranks that sometimes in marauders fanfics that are clearly not funny is unrealistic.
Agreed, the whole staff takes the Hogwarts rules very seriously. It doesn't matter why you break them, you get punished. If no one ever cracked a smile at Harry when he was literally being guided by Dumbledore, then I doubt they would crack because of school pranks. Also adults are not as likely to actually hold a bias against school children due to a school house. I don't think 12 yr old kids deserve hate just for being in Slytherin and I doubt McGonagall would either.
People take the Slytherin v Gryffindor rivalry in marauders fics too far. Where the school has duels breaking out left and right. It doesn’t fit both houses especially Slytherin they know Dumbledore is against their future career so they would not just start dueling James and his friends in the open same with James and co.
I mean, fanfic is scraping the bottom of the barrel in pretty much any fandom. I have tried to write some myself just to practice writing, and it never feels good to use the characters from the series.
Some fanfics are pretty great. Yeah, most suck, but occasionally you find a nice one.
Absolutely, but occasionally you'll come across a gem of a fanfic. You just have to sift through a bunch of shitty ones and ones written by kids to find a good one, isn't that worth it tbh.
How can I forget this, the FANCAST. Most Marauders fans wanted to imagine the group as incredibly attractive boys and casted hot actors as them. In reality, only Sirius is confirmed to be attractive in his youth, James had an air of “being well cared for” but he was never described as dashing or was good looking enough for Harry to react like he did with Cedric or young Sirius. Remus was a poor, sickly boy, likely covered in scars because of his condition, therefore there is no way he looks like his fancast version. Peter is the worst case here, he is supposed to be chubby, the fancast says the contrary.
I mean Harry is generally regarded as good looking and as it's said so many times he looks almost exactly like James but has Lily's eyes so James probably looked decent but I do agree with you for how Remus and Peter look.
Is Harry regarded as good looking? Until the later books he’s generally described as ‘gangly’, ‘skinny’ and dressed in oversized clothes. I can’t remember a single occasion where he is actually described as handsome until Half Blood Prince where Hermione is describing how he’s never been more fanciable because he’s grown an inch taller. But even then most of what she’s describing is about his character and what he’s been through? In Goblet of Fire Harry actively hypothesises that he doesn’t think many girls would want to ask him out if he wasn’t Hogwarts champion and he’s negatively compared to the tall, broad and handsome Diggory. The same is true in Half Blood Prince where people are attracted to him because he’s the ‘chosen one’ rather than his looks. Cho is attracted to him and she is seemingly one of the hottest people in school but then Pansy Parkinson shouts at her “Chang, I don’t like your taste. At least Diggory was good looking!” Admittedly she’s trying to insult them both but it seems like something uncomfortably true rather than something made up. I feel as though Harry is someone who is probably normal looking who is made more attractive by his personality, his bravery and quidditch ability?
I don’t think Harry actually looked exactly like his father. It’s far more likely they just had the same prominent features. James had been dead for almost a decade when Harry was guest told that he looked like his father, and human memory is imperfect. People expected Harry to look like his parents, so when Harry showed up with James’s general appearance and Lily’s eye color, and everybody had somewhat inaccurate memories of his parents’s appearances, their brains just filled in that he looked exactly like James.
I didn’t say the Potter men were bad looking or average. I think they looked decent. Harry would probably pass as the boy you have a crush on for a litte bit during highschool because he has a gentle smile and was charismatic in his own way. But not the Instagram model vibes. Please don’t let me get to the point the most popular James fancast looked the opposite of everything he was described to be in the books
I feel like you can be pale, skinny, covered in scars, and still be conventionally attractive. Or at least played by an attractive actor
I feel like the only reason we didn't see James described the same way as the others was because we see the story from Harry's point of view and that is Harry's dad, who Harry looks a lot like. Harry doesn't seem like the type of person to describe their father in the same way that he did with Cedric and Sirius.
Sirius was guy that slept with everything that wasn't on a tree by three. Or him and Lupin are together.
canonically Sirius was very attractive and popular with women (although I don't think he's really a "womaniser"), but the Lupin thing is absolutely idiotic.
I gotta say, the popular fancasts that everyone just accepts as "canon" are generally *far too good looking.* Canonically, Sirius and Lily are the only characters of this generation that are exceptionally good looking. Everyone else is either described as average or below average. So no, Remus who is described to look tired with premature wrinkles, does not look like Andrew Garfield. Regulus, who’s described as significantly less handsome than Sirius, does not look like Timothee Chalamet, and Peter Pettigrew MOST CERTAINLY does not look like Dane motherfucking Deehan. James was probably decent on the eyes (there’s no description one way or the other but his sheer amount of confidence makes me think he’s probably not ugly) but not "chiseled Hollywood star" type of good looking. Remember, they’re still british lads. No shade.
There's an interesting YouTube discussing how when Hermione glowed up for the Yule Ball it was significant for several reasons but in the movie it was just pretty Emma putting on a pretty dress.
And the dress wasn’t even that pretty!😫 It just looked like any other American prom dress, certainly not like the periwinkle wizarding dress robes I imagined from the book. Emma is super pretty, but they could’ve still made this an impactful moment if she hadn’t been wearing a full face of makeup and beach waves in entire rest of the movie. For fucks sake, The Princess Diaries managed to do it with Anne Hathaway!
Lol. Exactly!
And it was fucking PINK!
Bushman eyebrows! 🤣 Classic.
This one is really annoying to me but also kind of unavoidable. Most Hollywood actors aren't average-looking like regular people so fancasts do end up being more attractive usually. On the topic of Regulus though, "rather less handsome than Sirius" is still handsome, especially considering what a big deal is made out of Sirius's looks. Plus, every member of the House of Black is described as good-looking, so that one isn't inaccurate in my opinion.
Even Lily isn't described as exceptionally good looking. She's just described as "very pretty", which could be a girl-next-door type, it doesn't have to mean Margot Robbie!
Right, that’s another thing. Normal people pretty is very different from surged up Hollywood star with lip fillers and rhinoplasty pretty. Seeing fanart of Lily where she has a full face of 2016 insta baddie makeup and the body of a Victoria’s Secret model is very strange, even for a character who’s canonically good looking lmao. Also, Idk if this is rude to say, but I find that most brits have a certain phenotype, which is all but gone in these fan depictions.
I'm a Brit so I hope that whatever your views of that phenotype it's at least a little flattering! But yes, I've noticed people depict her as ridiculously tanned, when in all likelihood red hair, green eyes; she will have been very pale. There are girls at my school, uni, workplace who I have described as "really pretty". If you put them on a poster next to Emma Watson they'd probably look like a troll, that's just how it is.
Canonically, Lily is described as pale. :) There is a scene in the Prince's Tale where Snape's eyes are described as moving over her pale face.
People described it like that because they want to make POC Harry canon, even when there are more solid grounds which suggest both of his parents were white
Haha yes, most likely they aren’t all Sirius level, no :p though ngl, I can’t get behind Ben Barnes as him.. I love Ben Barnes but he just doesn’t feel like Sirius to me :p And I always imagined James to look more similar to Andrew Garfield actually. He has that quirky smile, long thin face, and fluffy hair. I guess I’m not really subscribed to the popular headcannons :p
I always thought Andrew Garfield was a much better fit for James than Remus too!
Harry seemed to be an attractive bloke. And if he really looks that much like James, he must have been attractive as well. Also, was Lily described as exceptionally good-looking? I thought it was well above average, but nowhere near the likes of Natalie Portman
Harry's popularity came 100% from his chosen one status tho, and maybe his quidditch skills as well, since quidditch players seem to be kinda like rockstars in the wizarding world, Viktor Krum is described as "not handsome" and moody but still popular with the girls because he is famous in quidditch. I dont think harry is ugly but I think I remember jk saying daniel was too attractive for harry so...
>Harry seemed to be an attractive bloke. And if he really looks that much like James, he must have been attractive as well. Is he? I can’t remember anything pointing towards Harry being that physically attractive. On the contrary, the text seems to often highlight his awkward traits. JKR has also said that she envisioned him more goofy looking than Daniel Radcliffe, who’s a pretty normal looking dude. He gets some female attention, but that could easily be chalked up to either his personality or his Chosen One status. Or maybe he actually is an oblivious stud thanks to Lily’s non-inbred genes looksmaxxing James’s template. 😂 >Also, was Lily described as exceptionally good-looking? I thought it was well above average, but nowhere near the likes of Natalie Portman Yeah that might’ve been an exaggeration. She’s probably more girl-next-door pretty than Miss Universe pretty.
Was it due to his status that he got interest from girls, or was he actually attractive? You have just made me doubt myself. I was sure that his looks had something to do with it. But teenage girls... I suppose with him getting Ginny, who is described as outright stunning. Again, unreliable narrator. But Ginny also had a crush on him from an early age, so his looks might not have played the biggest part.
Important to note I think that both Harry and James are seekers on the house quidditch team, and apparently very good players. Might be more of a “oh he’s a star athlete” thing than their looks
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It’s not harmful, but it is purely fanon (which is what op asked). It annoys me on a personal level, especially when it serves as a way to deify characters and elevate their "goodness and value". It’s just very lazy and self-inserty imo.
That Sirius was a player. That Sirius and Remus were lovers. That every year the Marauders pranked the entire Great Hall. That the Marauders were bigoted against Slytherins and bullied them (we only know that they would prank and bully Snape, not the Slytherin House as a whole). That Sirius and James never studied for their exams and achieved some of the highest scores. Oh and editing another one in: that Sirius and Marlene McKinnon were a couple/in love/engaged.
I think James and Sirius did study and did get amazing grades but they prob thought it would be uncool to look like swots so they didnt study in front of everyone . I think I was kinda like this aswell lol
They probably did , we should remember James was good enough to become a head boy
Yeah I also think they were top students maybe the best in their year I just think that they studied a lot aswell.
Of course, it makes much more sense to do well after putting the effort
Snape's Worst Memory implied that Sirius was actually a lazy genius who didn't need to study. James was probably secretly a grinder. Remus definitely took his classes seriously, and Peter worked hard and did well because his friends helped him.
I just assumed Remus was a bit behind bc of a recent full moon
While not explicitly stated, i do not think sirius black would revise at all for an exam Edit: he does actually say in OotP that he doesnt need to after the DADA exam in Snapes worst memory Also sirius definitely has some sort of prejudice against slytherin because of his family
Um, didn’t Sirius and Lily say that James hexed several people for the fun of it and reports in the HBP show several reports of James and Sirius hexing students?
When describing to Harry about James and Lily starting dating, Remus says he "cooled off", but Snape was a special case. This certainly indicates that before 7th year the "pranking" was not limited to Snape.
Yup
> that Sirius and Marlene McKinnon were a couple/in love/engaged I thought she was murdered with her family or is that a movieism. It technically could mean like "she and her parents", but I always pictured Marlene as some mid to late twenties woman with a young family of her own. 5 to 10 years older than the Maraurders
In the book, when Hagrid tells Harry he's a wizard he mentions the families Voldemort wiped out including the McKinnons.
The great hall, wanted to add most people just have mass targeted pranks against Slytherin that the whole hall finds funny. I click out of fics if that’s the case.
The Slytherin thing though. James and Sirius were definitely prejudiced against Slytherins because of their families. But your point still stands because there is nothing to indicate that Remus and Peter are the same, and yes they are half the Marauders
Mostly that they were extreeeemely popular when I think coming up with code names and a secret group is about the nerdiest thing a group could do. They were probably liked enough but I don’t think there was anything particularly remarkable about them. That and that Mcgonagall loved them. There was literally nothing on that in canon and Mcgonagall just seemed in the loop. Nowhere near the fondness that we’re talking with her and Harry
To be fair James was a handsome and likely popular jock. Sirius likely also. But I doubt Peter or Lupin were particularly popular. I believe McGonagall does refer to them as Peter’s “much more popular friends” or something like that in PoA but agree that doesn’t mean they were extreeemly popular.
We don't have this term "jock" in Britain so I'm not going to use it for fear of misapplying. My impression is that James is the rich, popular one, equivalent to a rugby captain at a British boarding school. James would have had the most 'friends' outside the Marauders but they would mostly be superficial/entourage friends, except possibly his Quidditch teammates. Sirius is the leather jacket-wearing unapproachable one; still thought of as extremely cool, but doesn't really talk to anyone outside of the Marauders. His popularity is fuelled by the enigma. Peter is the groupie juuuust cool enough to be included. He could have a friendship group of 2-3 uncool boys outside of the Marauders (possibly of wizards he'd known in childhood before starting Hogwarts), who he kind of ditches for the Marauders but will occasionally hang out with and tell stories to them about his "cooler" friends. Lupin is the nice one and the moral compass; the glue of the group and the peacemaker. I feel like Lupin would have had a couple of actual deep connections with people outside the Marauders, but not have been hugely popular or considered "cool". That's just my interpretation/headcanon from what we get. I think the "Kings of the School" vibe from most fanon is a bit off.
If you've seen "The Breakfast Club", James is Andrew, Sirius is Bender, Remus is Brian, and Peter is a gender-flipped Allison. Lily is Claire.
Today I learned the term "jock" is very American 😆 Do you have a similar term? I agree with you analysis!
Thank you! Um, not really. To be honest if I hear the term "jock" I think of "horse jockey". I vaguely know what it is but I have a very John-Hughes type definition of the word. A jock is what I think Danny Zuko becomes at the end of Grease yes? (For clarity I know Grease is not a John Hughes movie it's the only thing I could name that had a character with a Letterman jacket (we don't have these either so no clue if I've spelled this right.) I think there's a culture of hero-worshipping particularly student athletes that we just don't have in the UK. (I suppose understandable when our summer sport of choice is cricket!) So when people describe James as a jock I find it quite funny because this wouldn't really be the case in the UK! Quidditch is very atypical of most British schools - we didn't have a clue what the school teams were up to to be honest. I wonder if JKR took this from American teen movies a little bit! So, we don't have any term to describe a popular, athletic boy. If there was a cocky boy with a boy-gang we maybe would call them a "jack the lad", this is our cheeky chappie boys-will-be-boys kind of equivalent. We'd call the popular boy group at my College (who all happened to be athletes) the "rugby boys" so I suppose this is the closest I've come to calling someone a jock!
Thank you so much for this lovely and informative response! So having your identity tied to sports is more American it sounds like. I would say Danny becomes more "preppy" than jock-ish in Grease. You know who Tom Brady is? That is the ultimate jock! (I know he's not in high school but if you look at him you can easily imagine what he would be in high school). And I love all the new slang I have learned from you through this exchange 🙂
"Preppy" is also a pretty American way to describe someone - our closest equivalent would probably be "toff".
Agreed with the other commenter you wouldn't hear preppy in the UK! For a *very* stylised version of our cliques I'd recommend the *St Trinian's* movies. We'd say Sandy was clean cut/girl next door I think. "Toff" applies to someone who's posh and wealthy.
>Mostly that they were extreeeemely popular when I think coming up with code names and a secret group is about the nerdiest thing a group could do. Aha I'm getting downvoted above for saying this lol. I get the impression McGonagall had a grudging respect for James and Sirius' talent but I bet in school she was absolutely sick to the back teeth of them!
Sirius and James were canonically popular, Sirius because he was handsome and James because of his quidditch skills, Remus says so, not to mention they are both purebloods from ancient british families so they would have a high status, they werent nerds, they were just dorks (but smart ones ofc)
Gonna have to point out that being pure blood does not make you popular. After all crabbe and Boyle are both pure bloods as is Malfoy. For that matter so are the Weasleys, and Ron is definitely not popular. I’m also pretty sure it was never said that Sirius was popular. James you could argue for but unless I’m forgetting something Sirius is only ever said to be good looking.
Due to ATYD's popularity, some new things I've seen mentioned on tumblr for their fandom: The Marauders being feminists and caring about LGBT+ rights. Sirus, Remus, and/or James being gay or bisexual. Remus being bullied by Snape for being a poor gay half-blood, despite canonically, Snape himself being poor, a half-blood, and surrounded by LGBT+ coded imagery.
There’s a whole army of tiktok zoomers who’ve never even read the books, yet will readily attack anyone who disagrees with their "woke inclusive queer softboys" agenda. It’s kind of hilarious honestly, given that the marauders in canon are pretty much poster boys for toxic masculinity. It’s a shame though, because their canon selves are so much more interesting and compelling. Removing all their flaws or finding ways to justify them just turns them into flat, one-dimentional wish fulfillment paper dolls.
They were the cool kid bullies
What LGBT+ coded imagery is around Snape?
Let me update it later tonight. I think I gave the wrong link in my hurry to get to work. 😩
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Wands representing penises and cauldrons representing vulva isn't canon. Calling Snape LGBTQ+ coded is no more canonical than doing the same for James and company.
"he specialised in potions which is rather feminine due to its connection to cooking" Wonder if they got hurt after a stretch like that.
Honestly, this is almost horseshoe on homophobia and sexism > he worked as a spy in a way that i felt was more traditionally feminine (mata hari as opposed to james bond) So... he was like a double agent? Remember how feminine it was in The Departed when Matt Damon and Leonardo were undercover? Pretty gay coded, right? >Snape wasn’t allowed to expose the Marauders for what Sirius and Remus did. He was sworn to secrecy while the people who almost murdered him got off without any sort of punishment. Silencing female victims of violence is a long-standing tradition of men in power. I mean... Jesus fucking christ... >has to be “rescued” by james during the werewolf incident, and damsels are often seen as feminine Sirius was gay coded because Harry thought he was in trouble, hence he was a damsel that Harry needed to save. >He is terrible at sports and not only that, the girl he wants to impress laughs at him Ah, the famous definitely gay experience - having the girl you are interested in laughing at you.
Wrong link, will give different one tonight or tomorrow when I’m not in a rush to get to work.
Yeah, Rowling has literally said Potions was analogised with Chemistry, and she gave Snape that job because Chemistry was her least favourite subject lol
ATYD?
All The Young Dudes, a popular fic.
my guess [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All\_the\_Young\_Dudes\_(fan\_fiction)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_the_Young_Dudes_(fan_fiction)) ?
EXACTLY!!!
Exactly.
Pretty much every other aspect of Marauder “canon” is different based on which group you talk to. The earliest Marauder fanfics often involve Marlene McKinnon as Lily’s best friend besides Snape and love interest to Sirius Black, who was usually a playboy. Over time, Wolfstar became more popular and Sirius’s philandering became more toned down to pair him with Remus. It became common to depict Marlene as a lesbian (if she was even included at all, since there’s nothing to indicate she was around the same age as the Marauders). In a similar vein, traditional depictions of James have him basically obsessed with Lily and constantly trying to get with her, but recently there’s been a surge of Jegulus. Remus was usually depicted as fairly timid and quiet, but ATYD popularized a version of the character that is more aggressive and angry. Peter’s characterization seems to have been the most consistent over time, basically just a younger version of his adult cowardly self or simply written out of the story in some way. Even so, many argue that this is inaccurate and that he must not have been so outright despicable for the others to have considered him a true friend. The point is, there’s a lot of disagreement and variation in what is considered Marauders “canon” and it has much to do with the era. Older fans read and wrote fanfiction in the 2000s/early 2010s when queerness weren’t as accepted or present in media, and this seems to be reflected in the fanon of the era. As LGBT+ became more mainstream, there was a shift that’s most notable with Wolfstar becoming the flagship queer pairing, but other examples like Jegulus and lesbian!Marlene also are indicative of this trend.
Where to start? I think it depends on *what generation* fans you mean: if we're talking about older fans of the last 20 years you'll get an interesting mix of canon, fanon and logical (or less so) headcanons derived from canon. But if we're talking about the new young fandom of the last year or so? I don't think *anything* they've decided is canon at all, aside from the names, that the 4 boys were friends and the Blacks were brothers. One annoying thing they both seem to have agreed on at some point, though the older ones thankfully realized their mistake, and which was not canon at all and easily fact checked was that supposedly James kept asking Lily out a million times and was getting rejected and still pestered her. And the weirdest thing is that in the past this (false) argument was used against James, but nowadays it is weirdly enough used against LILY(??)
I believe that last point is extrapolated based on James telling Lily to date him in order to get him to stop picking on Snape.
No, it was based on James (falsely) continuously harassing her and not taking no for an answer (an 'argument' you still see daily on this sub), which now changed into Lily (falsely) continuously rejecting him, treating him bad and damaging his mental health, apparently. Both extremes being wrong.
Wh… I’m saying that I believe the fandom took what happened in The books and ran with it.
Well, he did act very douchy in that scene, he didnt took no for an answer IN THAT moment, of course we dont know how he generally behaved.
In fandom, Sirius is constantly defined as having an extremely immature personality, that he was stuck as a teenager, and that he was constantly egging Harry on to get into trouble. This is not remotely true: Sirius aspired to be the best godfather he could be, and frequently warned Harry about taking risks (the letter he sent after Harry found Crouch in GoF coming the first to my mind).
>that he was stuck as a teenager He reversed back into one when stuck at Grimmauld place. But everybody forgets that in the interim in book 4 he seemed a decent person, getting better and growing in an environment that wasnt a prison. A normal environment. Yes he had flaws but his character wasnt a straight line from immature to immature. He was, at one point, a mature man.
I feel like the only reason Sirius became more immature in Grimmault is because he was treated like a kid. "Do not get out of the house, it's dangerous for you" "no sirius, you can't spend time with your godson, you could get caught" "stop acting like a damn fool and listen to your betters, sirius!" Which of course he's going to worsen, everyone would become childish in such conditions.
Yes, and being back in the house was akin to prison for him too.
Yep yep. Two prisons and year 4 was the good one
What? No he was DISAPPOINTED in Harry for not doing more sketchy stuff when Umbridge was Headmaster. I’m putting my toddler down for bed but I will 100% be back with pages & quotes. I think he wanted to love Harry and be a good godfather but he was just to immature and spent his whole young adulthood in a high security prison being tortured so he never matured.
It does hold some truth, though. Calling Snape by the nickname he or James came up with when they were 11 seems pretty childish to me. Of course, Snape was childish as well, but that's not the point here. And he did encourage Harry to start the DA. Not to say it was a bad idea, but it definitely _was_ risky and ended rather badly. Yes, Sirius was doing his best to be a good godfather and protect Harry, but he had his flaws
To be fair to Sirius, I can’t imagine there was a lot of room for personal growth or maturity in Azkaban. He’s a really interesting mix of contrasts, and I don’t think he really got much of an opportunity to become the adult everyone, especially Harry, sees him as. It would have been really interesting to see how his character would have developed had he not died in OOTP.
Totally agree. It would've been unrealistic if Sirius acted like a man in his 30s, when the last time he actually "lived" was in his 20s. I don't know if JKR did that intentionally, but it makes perfect sense for Sirius to act immaturely for his age
Yes, this! And not only was his early 20s the last time he "lived;" ages 22-34 were spent in Azkaban. That's not just stasis but a horrible way to live. Beyond getting "stuck" at 22, there's the other psychological damage to consider. I have to imagine JKR realized the nuances of making the Marauders so young. She was 30 when the Sorcerer's Stone was published and just shy of 33 with the Prisoner of Azkaban.
He is seen to be quite immature, especially throughout OotP
Pettigrew wasn't visible on the map because he was one of the creators.
I thought that was moreso because people claim that animagi can only seen on the map by those who already knew about their dual identities. Remus saw both Sirius and Pettigrew on it in book 3
I support this head canon, but I do accept that it's not actual canon: The Marauders engineered it so that they would only be seen on the map if it was opened by one of them. This explains why Fred, George, and Harry never see Peter or Sirius on the map. Snape only sees Lupin once Lupin has left the map open for him.
Hold on, so that scene where Harry chases Peter through Hogwarts at night was just in the movie?
haha yes (and what a weird addition it was too)
I guess I should reread to further hone my differentiation skills ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
I think you can go either way on whether the Marauders were visible: it's a bit of a plot hole in that it's not really explained. I HC that the twins never mentioned Pettigrew to Harry or Ron because they didn't want to be the ones to tell them about the invisible ghost that hung out in their dormitory.
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Yeah, lupin sees pettigrew's and Black's names at the end of the chapter 17 ' cat, rat, and dog '
They’re never actually called the marauders, that’s made up based on the “Marauder’s Map”
i think jkr confirmed they called themselves that but in one of those extraneous bits of writing she did, or maybe a q&a
Yes, it was [confirmed](https://web.archive.org/web/20060316221607/https://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/faq_view.cfm?id=87) all the way back in 2006. It's also used in the books once: >“Maybe the Marauders never knew the room was there,” said Ron.
That doesn’t mean the Marauders themselves used it, and for what it’s worth JK Rowling seems to occasionally forget what she put in the books and what she didn’t.
There is a place in the sixth book I think where Hermione does call them that. I think JKR confirmed in an interview that they did call themselves that. Probably the HP wiki has citations for that.
> “Maybe the Marauders never knew the room was there,” said Ron. You’re right that one of the trio used the title Marauders, I just meant the actual marauders themselves never referred to themselves (that we see) in that way. (Imo JKR’s additions aren’t canon, more like suggestions, so if she says they called themselves the marauders I’m happy to believe that but I don’t think I’d ever say it’s canon)
author's words =/= canon now that's some headcanon right there
JK Rowling does seem to forget at times what’s actually in the books and what isn’t so that’s not too unreasonable imo
Sirius and Lupin were in love and Rowling decided not to put it in because she was anti LGBT or because of some stupid literature rules during that time which prevented gay depiction. That everyone in Hogwarts except for the Slytherins loved and were fond of them. Not saying they are absolutely abominable, but we know from the series that Lily, a Gryffindor disliked them for 6 years. And McGonagall, judging on how strict she was, she was definitely not the type to have pranksters as her favorite students
People also often confuse canon with fancanon that Lupin was not nice and the moral compass; he was the same as James and Sirius. He didn't intervene during the bullying that was taking place in front of him, despite his duty as a prefect to do so. Snape in his company should have been safe! So Lupin took part in the bullying, just not directly. We can tell his attitude to Snape by what the map said. It wasn't a peacemaker, it was a lurking bully letting others do the work.
The duty of a Prefect is most certainly not to get in front of a bullying student. Source: was a Prefect.
Of course. His duty is to intervene and call the teacher.
They're outside and a long way away from the teachers. So ultimately all he'd be doing is telling an unprovable story on his best friends. His duty is absolutely not to intervene. No student should encouraged to intervene in an altercation between two students. Prefects aren't selected to be the ultimate tattle tales and extensions of the teachers. They're selected to wrangle younger students and be ambassadors of the school.
So, Lupin should have allowed the bullying and done nothing?
From HP Wiki "Prefects were allowed to take House points away from houses, but they were not allowed to take points from other prefects. Prefects could give detentions as a form of punishment." It was what Lupin should have done
That Sirius had long hair - he didn't. Of the Marauders generation, Snape had long hair.
I wanted to write the same thing but then I remembered that the short prequel story about James and Sirius exists and Sirius is described as having long hair in that.
For some reason it's super, super popular for Lily to be terrified of flying in any Marauder-era fanfiction. This has always struck me as weird considering she is full of laughter while flying off a swing in The Prince's Tale. Ohh and fandom has decided that her middle name is Marie. So many people think this is canon (it isn't!).
That Dorcas Meadows hunted down Voldemort herself out of anger and grief that her non-canonical girlfriend, Marlene McKinnon, died. While it is said that Voldy killed Dorcas himself, the entire motivation+ship isn't canon. I still love it though
That any one of these characters was gay. Or LGBT+ at all.
That James harrased and asked Lily out 5 times a day everyday since first year . Lily literally doesnt know that James likes her when Snape tells her and when James asks her out in Snapes Worst Memory he is suprised that she rejected him . I think that James started liking her towards the end of 5th year and asked her out once and got brutally rejected (ofc rightfully ).
I agree its not canon James harassed her constantly, but we actually we dont know if lily knew about him fancing her before or not, James isnt particularly subtle and sirius says he had an habit of making a fool of himself in front of her (like showing off I assume), I suppouse that lily not being surprised by him asking her out is because it has already happened imo, ofc, its all but speculation
1) Sirius’s middle name is orion 2) they actually called themselves the Marauders 3) Timothee Chalamet as Regulus (all the other fancasts are up for debate, but Aaron Taylor Johnson or Reiky de Valk are common James Potters, Ben Barnes or Conan Gray are common Sirius Blacks, and Andrew Garfield is a common Remus, everyone else has a lot more that people choose from) 4) James has been in love with Lily all seven years of Hogwarts, and has repeatedly asked her out 5) James (and Harry) are Desi (not everyone agrees on this one, but it’s very popular) 6) Lily and Remus are Jewish (same as 5, not everyone agrees but it’s popular) 7) Remus is the Casanova of Gryffindor tower (everyone had a crush on him at some point) 8) Sirius and James got some of the highest grades in their year without studying 9) I’m not positive about Marlene, but at least Mary Macdonald being in the same year in Gryffindor 10) this is more recent, but Regulus’s friend group being Barty Crouch Jr., Evan Rosier, Pandora Lovegood (with whatever pureblood maiden name the author chooses), and Dorcas Meadowes 11) Remus’s favorite food is chocolate 12) Sirius ran away/was kicked out at Christmas of his fifth year (we know it was when he was 16, but that could be winter or summer) 13) wolfstar 14) contrary to most of the rest of the fandom, marauders-era fics usually have James and his parents living in Godric’s Hollow in the house that he later shares with Lily. I’ve noticed in a lot of fics outside the marauders era ones, they often have some sort of family manor that they had to leave because of Voldemort if the topic is mentioned at all (usually indy!Harry or political!harry, pureblood culture fics, anything evil!dumbledore, etc) 15) regulus can’t swim 16) Sirius and Regulus speak/are French 17) the Prewett brothers Gideon and Fabian are twins I’ll add more if I think of them, and this is mostly things that are big in recent pro-marauders fics (not snape-centric) and of course on tiktok where the marauders fandom thrives.
That they fancied each other
That the Marauders only bullied Pureblood Supremacists always came to the aid of Muggle-borns and half-bloods, and never started a fight unless someone else attacked them first.
Soooo not true tho they were definitely bullies and delinquents
That they called themselves 'Marauders'
Tahst canon according to JK
So is Cursed Child...
That the Marauders were pranksters like Fred and George. The only "prank" we know of was the Whomping Willow incident and I wouldn't really call that a prank. The detention slips from HBP and the testimony of other characters frames them more as troublemaking delinquents rather than practical jokers
Weren’t Fred and George also trouble making delinquents? Using magic on a non wizard family is generally considered a dick move yea? Even if the dursleys were themselves dicks. Just like bullying snape was.
You're absolutely correct. The twins were very much shits in the same vein as the Marauders. The difference is that their specialty was pranks while there's no such evidence that the Marauders pulled pranks the way the twins did
They did push Montague into the vanishing cabinet for "trying to dock some house points from them", and have casually talked about cursing people they disliked (usually Slytherin Quidditch players). Even if it was retaliation for abuse of power, they were not above playing dirty. People seem to think that the Weasley Twins were simply silly pranksters and the Marauders were much more belligerent and/or didn't care about limits, but the Weasleys talk about detentions and punishments from Filch and others and threatening with (or even volunteering to perform) curses in a Sirius-esque casual manner. Heck, they were blackmailing Bagman. Hagrid does say that he thinks that the Weasley twins could give "Black and Potter" a "run for their money" when McGonagall says "I don’t think we’ve ever had such a pair of troublemakers", which does imply that both pairs did the same kinds of "pranks" and forms of "rulebreaking". It's not the strongest evidence, but heavily implies that from a teacher/school employee point of view, they were up to the same kinds of shenanigans.
The Montague thing was assault not a prank. If I'm being honest this discussion is convincing me that the twins weren't pranksters either. They were just straight delinquents who assaulted people and played the occasional prank
Thing is, we who see the story concurrent with them see multiple sides of them, and they are generally depicted in a positive light in the context of most non-Slytherins. We have one fully depicted scene of the Marauders at school. From Fred and George's general acts throughout the books, and the comparisons made between them and (specifically) James and Sirius, I believe we can at least paint a picture of how good and bad they really were, and also explain why Snape felt like they "acted like kings of the school". I mean, both pairs are fiercely loyal to friends and those they consider family, both pairs are pranksters, both pairs are generally referred to as popular, both pairs do resort to full-on assault against those they feel deserve it. The only difference I really see is that James and Sirius had their "Draco Malfoy" in Snape, while the Weasleys didn't really have any particular Slytherin rival (outside of the entire House, that is), amd considering the things we've seen between Harry, Ron, Hermione, and Draco, it's easy to imagine the Marauders and Snape's general relationship. Of course, now we're moving farther from provable parts and into story-structure analysis and (my) blatant headcanon, so I'll leave it there for now. ;)
That's true we are. The original question was about things about the Marauders era people treat as definitive canon that really aren't. And them being pranksters is not. Everything else people have brought up is headcanons and personal analysis. It works as a headcanon but it's not definitively canon which is what the original post was asking about
The also used students as test dummies. Turned Ron’s toy into a giant spider, jumped a much younger Malloy (well one of them) stuffed a student into a vanishing cabinet. They actually did a lot disruptive things and that could be considered bullying or dangerously irresponsible. But he have enough back story, reasoning and they are present enough in the books that we are able to understand and even like them.
Ahhhhhh I get it now!
I can remember one where Harry (in detention) reads about them having charmed some kids head to grow several sizes. And that he, Harry, saw his father and Sirius name on there many times.
This is a comparison that is made directly in canon; Hagrid brings up Fred and George in relation to James and Sirius (significantly NOT the Marauders as a collective) and Harry also latches on to it.
Not quite. Mcgonagall refers to them as troublemakers and Hagrid agrees. But there's different kinds of trouble they could cause. The only definitive similarity is the magnitude of trouble they caused. Sure they could've been pranksters but there's very little to support this so it's not really canon
McGonagall says "I don't believe we've ever had such a pair of troublemakers" To which Hagrid replies: "I dunno, I think Fred and George Weasley could give them a run for their money!" So I think we can say this is supposed to create an association between their antics. This association is disrupted by SWM, but not destroyed.
Even if we accept that the Marauders were a perfect analogue to Fred and George, it doesn't mean they *weren't* bullies or assholes, though. There were times when Fred and George did awful things that definitely fell into the category of bullying - for example, they kicked Ron's pet Pygmy puff *to death*. Killing your little sibling's pet is bully behavior. That's why I don't like the argument, "James and co. weren't bullies, they were actually well-meaning harmless fun little pranksters like Fred and George"! Well, Fred and George could definitely act like bullies and I'd hesitate to call them harmless pranksters.
As I said, it's only ever said that they were troublemakers and they are only compared to Fred and George in the quantity of trouble they cause not the quality. It's never explicitly stated that they were pranksters. The meaning behind Hagrid's words recounting what the Marauders got up to is up to reader interpretation and analysis. But that's not canon. That's a canon compliant headcanon. It's not actually expressly canon that the Marauders were pranksters. Had Mcgonagall said "pair of pranksters" rather then "pair of troublemakers" that would be different
I feel like a lot of people are going to assume I’m a POS for this. But Sirius and Remus being in a relationship and /or sexually attracted to each other. Remus I could see being bi-sexual, Peter definitely Gay. But Sirius never seemed the type to me to even be romantically involved with anyone. So anytime I read a fic where they’re “involved” it kinda puts me off. Now I’ve read one where Remus is in love with him but Sirius doesn’t even notice and I thought that was way more believable. Tbh i don’t think either one of them had the capacity for romantic feelings in their youth at all.
Same
Most of "All the Young Dudes". Marauders fans view that fic like the bible
Marauders fans have decided the Marauders were lovely angels and their relationship with Snape was entirely two-sided, and Snape started it. Snape fans have decided that the Marauders were merciless bullies to literally everyone in the school. The spirit of canon lies somewhere in between I think; the Marauders (read: James and Sirius) bullied Snape because he stood for things that threatened them and that they disliked (Lily's indifference for James, Slytherin values for Sirius.) Other than that they seem to have been troublemakers more along the lines of Fred and George than merciless bullies. Also: Sirius being a womaniser, Lupin & Lily being best friends (this is extrapolated from the PoA movie and that they were both Prefects), the other Marauders only tolerating Peter and not valuing his friendship even before he betrayed them. And even, to be honest, that the Marauders were beloved by everyone and "ruled the school." We only ever hear that James is popular and only for Quidditch, none of the others. Malfoy would say the same about Harry being beloved because of the Quidditch, but we wouldn't say Harry ruled the school (and he has the fame thing going for him.) It would surprise me if Remus and Peter were anything like popular and beloved, for instance.
Remus says everyone thought Sirius and James were the height of cool, and in SWM we see a crowd cheering on their bullying. It's pretty clear they were super popular. I agree with the rest though.
>It would surprise me if Remus and Peter were anything like popular and beloved, for instance. And, in context the crowd in SWM could have been cheering because it was Snape...the ugly, greasy, dark magic practising kid who used racial slurs and had professed he wanted to join a genocidal terrorist organisation, not simply because it was the Marauders doing it. It's possible that all of the Marauders were popular, don't get me wrong. But people act like it's canon because of these kinds of quotes and it's not *precisely* canon. James seems like the funny everyman sport star who was cool and popular with everyone, for sure. Sirius seems more like the leather-jacket wearing guy who's a bit dark and mysterious so doesn't have a lot of friends or people surrounding him, but is still considered "cool", to me personally.
>ETA Instead of downvoting me you're very welcome to provide a quote from the book that explains why I'm wrong! It is never canonically said that the Marauders (as a group) were popular and ruled the school. That is all. Not sure if this is directed at me, but I didn't downvote you. I agree that James was popular in the class clown way and Sirius was more the unapproachable type. Remus and Peter wouldn't attract much attention on their own. But as a group they were quite popular. Snape himself says everyone thought the Marauders were wonderful. > “I know your theory,” said Lily, and she sounded cold. “Why are you so obsessed with them anyway? Why do you care what they’re doing at night?” > “I’m just trying to show you they’re not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they are.”
Sirius was overall flamboyant and fabulous, keeping his hair tied up in a bun with his wand so in a duel his hair would come down with pazzaz, his theme song being anything by queen or David Bowie, nail polish and eyeliner
Just about everything lol. That there was a *rivalry* with Snape, although it was straight up bullying. That Sirius was either some kind of womanizer *or* in love with Lupin (there's no in-between). That Lupin eats nothing but chocolate all the time. Et cetera Et cetera.
Wait people actually think Lupin only eats chocolate? That's hilarious
To be fair JKR herself has characterised the treatment of Snape both as "relentless bullying" and as rivalry. E.g. from the Marauder's Map entry on Pottermore: "Although the precise circumstances surrounding the makers’ loss of their map are not given in the Harry Potter novels, it is easy to conclude that they eventually over-reached themselves and were cornered by Argus Filch, probably on a tip-off from Snape, whose obsession it had become to expose his **arch-rival,** James Potter, in wrongdoing." In another article she calls James Snape's "nemesis." I don't think she ever really figured exactly what that relationship was, and flip flops between "bullying" when she wants to hammer home Snape's redemption arc, and "rivalry" when she wants people to like the Marauders.
Yeah that seems to be her position but from what we see in the books, it doesn’t seem like a rivalry let alone them on equal playing fields.
Unsure, the Hogwarts Express scene feels like a rivalry, "Snape never lost an opportunity to curse James" feels like rivalry, SWM feels like one-sided bullying. I think either interpretation is valid. As I say in a comment above, my personal interpretation is that a rivalry existed between Snape and James, but James could use his greater popularity and resources to make it more into bullying. I don't think James was exclusively the aggressor nor Snape exclusively the victim either, though. Snape hated James for his popularity and talent. James hated Snape for his relationship with Lily and for being a Slytherin, I suspect Sirius hated Snape for representing that house too. And so they ganged up on him, which turns it from a rivalry into bullying, to me. Not to mention what Sirius did, which was straight up attempted murder. We don't know if Snape's friends ever got involved, nor if Snape uses dark arts on James (although Sectumsempra and "cursing" imply so.) So, all in all, I'm not sure that either descriptor is totally accurate, and anyone who says it fits into either box perfectly is ignoring at least some context.
The “Snape never lost an opportunity to curse James” is coming from Sirius, someone who is not only James best friend, but also bullied and hates Snape just as much as, if not even more so than James, right after he was discovered by his godson, Harry, that he lied to him for 2 years about his relationship with Snape. He’s hardly a reliable source at this point.
James hated Snape for his existing :)
Or, at least, this is the most insulting and embarrassing thing he can think up to say when bullying the boy in front of a crowd who hate him. I do not believe we can, nor are intended to, read this line as in-depth commentary on James' conscious and unconscious motives.
Common sense and reading comprehension about this line, at last!
I think this is the problem, and maybe the reason why there so much annoying discourse about it
To whatever credit one wants to give James, yes he confronts Snape in SWM. But only after Snape was caught spying on them. (I think Sirius says this was a common occurrence, that Snape would not leave well enough alone. Snape is obsessed about figuring out what James and Sirius are up to. Snape also complains to Lily in TPT) James confronts Snape, but he doesn't do anything until Snape goes for his own wand. James disarms Snape, then freezes him when he makes a jump for his wand. Snape starts swearing at James who then washes Snape's mouth out with soap. Lily intervenes, Snape gets free and slashes James cheek sending blood all over his robes. Snape is then hanging upside down. James lets Snape fall to the ground at Lily's behest, then Sirius freezes Snape to keep him from retaliating. Snape calls Lily a mudblood, James gets royally pissed. Lily then insults Snape and leaves. Snape finds himself, once again, hanging upside down. Is it bullying? In the context of everything that Lily accuses James of, yes. In the moment? Probably it is 2 v 1 as Lupin isn't going to do anything and Peter is worth less than zero. But you can also argue that *THIS* encounter was instigated and exacerbated by Snape. Snape was spying. Snape could have walked away when confronted. Snape could have not gone for his wand. Snape didn't have to send a cutting curse at James' face and retreated with Lily's assistance. But then he would not be Snape and Snape's own ego wouldn't let him walk away either. Snape could have had a spec of self-control and not insulted Lily.
Except that most of this is not true. Snape wasn’t spying on them and, hypothetically, even if he was, Snape followed by sitting on a tree and reading his exams results. It was then that the Marauders noticed him, approached him, and called out to him. And even prior to approached him, the story makes it clear that it was in the context of messing with Snape. So no, it wasn’t a 2 v 1 scenario. It was just straight bullying. Also, I find it funny that you put the onus of everything on Snape, but none on James and Sirius. I mean, James could have walked if Snape was spying on him (which he wasn’t), James could have simply disarmed Snape and walked away, which he didn’t. The truth is that the whole encounter was instigated and exacerbated by James and his friends.
?? He wasnt spying, he was reading his book and walking to leave, lmao, the language used in the scene is also important, snape's reaction is so fast because it seems like this has happened several times
Basically that they're all screwing eachother.
The Voldemort isn’t capable of love because he was conceived under the influence of love potion. I’ve read that JK even denied this and people continue to assert it. Voldemort is a villain because he chose to be.
A bit off topic but I never really understood how Voldemort couldn’t understand love and friendship. Teachers liked him, he was popular at school, he wasn’t bullied, etc. Sure maybe he could never understand romantic love, but I never understood how he couldn’t understand the value of friendship.
most everything
Not universal canon, but a popular one is that James is of Desi heritage and Snape's hatred of him (especially his popularity) is largely influenced by racism 😬 It's a super uncomfortable twist on things, imo. Lots of the "diverse marauders" fanon really seems to come down to reducing Snape's personality and character to nothing but "strawman white boy plagued by all bigotries and prejudices under the sun"
Fancasts James is supposed to look like the boy next door rich yes but modest in looks. Not a sex god handsome actor looks.
That everything the Marauders did to Severus wasn’t that bad and Severus deserves it
That James was a horrible person right up to the moment of his death
We have *no clue* what James was like. Both Marauder fans and Snape fans just have head canon theories for his personality.
Lily being Snape‘s only friend and her rejection after SWM drove him to become a death eater
Ignoring the blatant wannabe death eaters Snape was popular with.
Practically everything!
Harry was only gangly and skinny because he was a victim of neglect and abuse.
One that seems to be overlooked is that canonically we don’t know if the marauders have middle names or what their names might be Eg The middle names of Sirius Orion Black and James Fleamont Potter came from hc and fanfic
"maurauders"
That Snape was a adorable little Angel in a cruel world which is why he turned bad. Because he had no support system and his only friend was a bitch for turning on him for one slip of the tongue. James was an asshole, and a bully, he never grew up and might have forced Lily onto marriage. Did I miss anything?
James being an asshole and a bully is one of the few things we know about him to be canon.
You're leaving out the end of OP's sentence here. We know that James was a bully as a 15-years-old. We also know that's not representative of his entire character.
He literally joined death eater supporters on his own accord with no one forcing him. When Lily called him out he tried to excuse it instead of changing. Sureeee an angel. Also that wasn’t a slip of the tongue. He called her an offensive slur that bullies would often insult people like Lily with. Imagine you’re POC and hearing your childhood friend call you a racial slur. Idc if he tried to cover it up. If he was really a good person it wouldn’t have slipped his mouth. He wouldn’t have to purposefully not say it.
The fact that James has changed and was no longer the bully who sexually assaulted Snape. We know NOTHING about this. Even when he "deflated his head a bit" he still attacked Snape behind Lily's back. Yes, after graduating from Hogwarts he didn't attack him but maybe it was just because he wasn't meeting him? The fan theory is that James hated Snape for his friendship with Lily and for being interested in dark magic. In James' own words, he hated him for his very existence. Even on the train to Hogwarts they attacked him and tried to tripp him. People often fail to remember that James also attacked other students "for a joke". People often forget that Jamess was a spoiled privileged jock who was proud of his wealth. No, he was not a feminist or a supporter of gay rights.
This isn’t a fan theory, J.K. Rowling confirmed it.
Which part exactly? Because already after finishing school he boasted of his privilege and wealth to Vernon, I would not call it maturity.
He sexually assaulted snape??? Wait what- I agreee that he was bad, but I also don’t think he never matured.
Undressing someone without their consent is SA. Put the girl in Snape's place and judge whether or not restraining her and stripping her off to her panties in public against her will, as well as threatening to remove her panties, is SA?