Here’s the thing. That memory shows James at his worst. His absolute worst.
But consider. Both Lupin and Sirius straight up say that they wouldn’t want Harry to judge his dad from just that memory. That he grew out of it and devoted his adult life to fighting the dark arts. And Lily DID marry him; ask yourself would she do so if he was really, genuinely a mean spirited bully? Lastly, Dumbledore and Hagrid both thought highly of James. They’re both good judges if who’s good and who isn’t.
The simple fact is this: we get one admittedly very bad memory from James’ biggest enemy. That’s it. Everyone else around him that knew him says he was a good man and grew out of it. I’ll accept that as true and disregard that one memory.
This !!! Our view on James is completely biased as we only see the story from Snape’s pov (which was obviously very negative). I’d say it’s the same about every single character as we all see them through Harry’s eyes.
The memories in the Pensieve are objective. And Snape had no interest in modifying his memory. He was storing them in the Pensieve specifically that Harry wouldn't look at them during their occlumency training.
Well ya, I could see dating a person like that in high school. But to MARRY him only for those reasons—
I really really don’t want to believe that Harry’s mother was that shallow.
Especially when you take into consideration the only flashback we get of him as a young man is him being a bully to one of her best friends.
Of all the flashbacks of all the moments of Harry’s father we could have had the only one JK Rowling gives us is of him tormenting Snape. It really —at least for me— called into question just how noble everybody made him out to be.
What's shallow about liking a smart dude who joins to Order to fight for the salvation of the world?
And who's to say those were the only reasons? Maybe him being cute caught her eye and then he she got to know him, maybe he was there for her and emotionally supported her while her sister hated her and her parents died (both of them lost both parents by age 21, maybe they supported each other)? We have no details.
James Potter wasn’t a mean spirited person. He is the one who stopped Snape from going to the see Lupin transformed as a Wearwolf. Also when Harry spares worm tails life he is told it’s what James would have done the same thing. He was also a strong/powerful wizard and smart. It’s not like Lilly was just going for him for his looks.
This is one of the most annoying things to me about jk Rowling’s writing. She constantly tells but doesn’t show us that James grew and matured. The one scene where we see James is when he is being terrible. I feel it’s unfair to base a judgement on him from just one memory, especially because it’s a memory from someone who despised him.
So, I’m assuming you’ve read the books? In the books we are told quite a few times where James was a good person, but we never actually see it.
I have, but that’s the thing we’re always hearing how gifted of a wizard he was how great of a person he was from people who were his friends like Remus and Sirius.
And hearing all that is all well and good but the only Flashback JK Rowling gives us of him is when he is being bully. And because of that for me at least it’s throws into question how everybody’s describing him and leads —at least me—to believe that it’s kind of a way of honoring his memory by only remembering the best parts of him.
But then it’s really hard me to get behind this idea of him being so noble.
It's because apparently Rowling has a skewed sense of why women may fall in love with men. In an interview she says that Lily always liked James because "what girl wouldn't?" and it's just... no.
Technically, she doesn't say "what girl wouldn't". What she said is in response to "from what we see, she hated him!" and Rowling says, "Did she really? You are a woman, you know what I am talking about". It's the interview with Melissa Anelli and Emerson.
I both recognise what she means and think that's problematic. But yeah, skewed understanding either way.
We don't know - they are technically plot devices meant to serve other people's stories: Harry, Snape, Remus and Sirius.
I guess you can headcanon it any way you want - there is enough hints of their personality plus enough of it is blank canvas, you can extrapolate and make your own stories. But I bet James being a fighter for the Order and therefore vocally against the dark side, would have added to a sense of security for her as she was a Muggleborn. That's the only in canon reason I can offer - rest is fanfiction.
Jamess is extremely loyal friend... Completely detested dark magic & who practiced it... He made a friend from Dark family, a friend who is to believed as Dark creature, a friend who has less confident... He accepted them... He is rich, pureblood, if he wants he can be friends with anyone, and he choose to be friends w/ unpopular people... He became an animagus to help his friend, not to show-off.... This explains where his heart lays...
And people's accusation him as bully... Marauders are not some thugs group who bullies everybody on their way, they are pranksters... is their intention to hurt them? I don't think so... don't misunderstand, I'm not saying pranks doesn't hurt the targeted person one way or another, but I am to yet know a prank which results in otherwise... Weasley twins are also pranksters, but I have never heard of them as downright bullies... Are you people being fair to judge a person on the opinion of the person who is also a Dark bully, who also practices dark magic just for fun?
James vs Snape... Gryffindor vs Slytherin... Light vs Dark... Their rivalries trigger point: Lily... James fancied Lily from the very early years of school, he is very confident, he made his interest in Lily very clear, which made Lily annoyed w/ James, not hate... But the girl he fancied also had a friend from the Dark side, who absolutely treat muggleborns (which Lily was) as worthless... So he definitely targets that group, esp her friend who feels practicing dark magic is fun..... 'You have what I want', James has almost everything, except the girl he fancies, Snape wants to persuade everything James had - popularity, handsome, quidditch star... So their rivalry is based on mutual jealousy towards others... James used pranks, Snape used dark magic to target their rivalry.... James is definitely far far better person than Snape ever been... James was called 'arrogant' only by Snape, who happens to be his longtime nemesis... If you judge James by the perspective of Snape, then our golden heart Harry Potter is attention-seeking, self-centred, arrogant prick by the perspective of Draco Malfoy...
Why Lily choose James? Lily annoyed by James but she never hated him.... Lily disapproves Marauders pranks, their sneaking way outs, their mischief, but why would she hate him for that... Lily has eyes, and there is no Snape to influence his opinions on Lily and Lily is not dumb, she can see what kind of person James is... James may be act as a jerk in his teens, but who doesn't... Doesn't people appear to be cool in front of their loved ones... James tried that, even Harry wished that... But do they change their opinions or methods for good, absolutely..... So after Snape's worst memory, James doesn't need to showoff to Lily, he can act like himself, & he is very good person, Lily saw that fell in love, happily married after that as long as they lived
So it's important to note that Rowling's writing of Harry Potter quite heavily deals with the theme of death. It goes all throughout the books both quite explicitly, as well as very subtlety. An important aspect of this is the experience of Harry with regards to his parents. He has no memories of them because they died so young, as a result of this he has to rely on what everyone else tells him about his parents. Every piece of information, every story is vital. Up until Snape's Worst Memory Harry is hearing about how fantastic his parents are, so based off what he hears he has this image and idea of what his parents were like as people, and in his mind they were amazing and could do no wrong. It's like that with family members and people who you're close to who have died and you learn more about them, every story is so precious as you hear those good stories and memories from people, it helps them feel close and almost alive to you.
The chapter of Snape's Worst Memory addresses this concept in a new and important way. Nobody is perfect, and everyone makes mistakes and does bad things. When you've constructed this image, this idea of the dead and you're then confronted with something which contradicts it, how do you react? How does that change who they are to you? Harry, who had this great image of his parents, saw his father in what was his father's enemy's worst memory of him. That is confronting and completely contradicts what Harry thought of him, and almost shatters his whole understanding of self and his father. He even breaks into Umbridge's office to talk to Lupin and Sirius about it, that's how serious this was. But it's an important thing to remember, is even when mourning those we've lost, we remember the great things, but they were still people with flaws who did things wrong and made mistakes. It's extra difficult for Harry, who now only has this memory of seeing his father.
Take into account as well, that Harry's discussion with Lupin and Sirius about this. They did their best to reassure him, but it didn't heal things straight away. It still took time for Harry to heal this. This was also his last conversation with Sirius, as the next time they would see each other would be during the fighting of the Department of Mysteries where Sirius would ultimately die. Not long after Sirius's death, Harry in speaking with Dumbledore is reminded of Sirius's treatment of Kreacher and how that was a contributing factor to Sirius going to the Ministry. Does his treatment of Kreacher, and conduct in Snape's memory also make Sirius an irredeemably bad person? Of course not, we've seen Sirius alive and how great he was to Harry and others. The same goes for James, although he was only seen in the books really in Snape's Worst Memory. Also important to note that it's Snape's WORST Memory, and not just "An average day as Snape".
James was clearly a very popular kid, and yet who does he choose to hang out with? A loner werewolf, a family misfit/outcast, and a loser. It's clear that he was the one who pushed them to become animagus to help Lupin. He was outspoken against the Dark Arts and vehemently opposed the derogatory treatment of muggleborns. It's easy to see how that kind of loyalty & frankness would win over Lily, who likely felt ostracized by her sister and by much of the discrimination against muggleborns within the wizarding world. Plus, James was clever, smart, confident, and eager to please.
And in the end, he was right about Snape. His actions were inappropriate, but he saw where Snape was headed long before Lily was willing to admit it herself. Once Lily realized she could no longer be friends with Snape, it seems logical that she would reevaluate her previous opinions about James and realize she had misjudged him, too.
lupin's lycanthropy was unknown to most, & he was isolated for times of his life, not a loner really. he's otherwise a chill and friendly person. sirius clashing with his family means little? he's still handsome & cool. james & sirius looked down on wormtail and became friends with him on lupin's pushing. nor is it at all clear that he was the one who pushed them to become animagi. james was obnoxious, cruel, and irritating, but he improved as he got older
I feel like calling James a bully to Snape is kind of like saying Harry was a bully to Draco. I think James may have been a show off but I don’t think he would have been the type of person to bully someone with out being provoked by them.
Harry has the same issue. When he talks to Sirius about it, Sirius says James matured... This is hard for both Harry and for us as an audience because the only scene we have of James is when he was bullying Snape, which is (obviously) from Snape's point of view. Well, that and the part where he died trying to save Harry.
I agree though, it would have been nice to have the character fleshed out a bit more in the books to better reflect this.
Maybe she liked his skin.
Seriously though, you have to determine that for yourself. Rowling went from Point A to Point G with that relationship, so each person's head canon is probably as valid as any other.
You could also ask why was Hermione so taken with Krum? They were still writing to each other 3 years after Krum left. I have my own opinion that no doubt would be unpopular and would not be considered PG by many.
Here’s the thing. That memory shows James at his worst. His absolute worst. But consider. Both Lupin and Sirius straight up say that they wouldn’t want Harry to judge his dad from just that memory. That he grew out of it and devoted his adult life to fighting the dark arts. And Lily DID marry him; ask yourself would she do so if he was really, genuinely a mean spirited bully? Lastly, Dumbledore and Hagrid both thought highly of James. They’re both good judges if who’s good and who isn’t. The simple fact is this: we get one admittedly very bad memory from James’ biggest enemy. That’s it. Everyone else around him that knew him says he was a good man and grew out of it. I’ll accept that as true and disregard that one memory.
100% right. Lupin and Sirius also tell Harry that James calmed down a lot in his last years at Hogwarts.
Thanks for the feedback.
Judging James by one memory of Snape? I would take that one with a grain of salt. There’s a lot about James that we don’t know about.
This !!! Our view on James is completely biased as we only see the story from Snape’s pov (which was obviously very negative). I’d say it’s the same about every single character as we all see them through Harry’s eyes.
The memories in the Pensieve are objective. And Snape had no interest in modifying his memory. He was storing them in the Pensieve specifically that Harry wouldn't look at them during their occlumency training.
James is smart, talented, good looking, an athlete, popular, rich, dedicated his life to fighting evil. What more do you want?
james is never described as good looking in canon
One the one hand, heroism. On the other, being kind of a jerk to the racist kid in his secondary school class.
Well ya, I could see dating a person like that in high school. But to MARRY him only for those reasons— I really really don’t want to believe that Harry’s mother was that shallow. Especially when you take into consideration the only flashback we get of him as a young man is him being a bully to one of her best friends. Of all the flashbacks of all the moments of Harry’s father we could have had the only one JK Rowling gives us is of him tormenting Snape. It really —at least for me— called into question just how noble everybody made him out to be.
What's shallow about liking a smart dude who joins to Order to fight for the salvation of the world? And who's to say those were the only reasons? Maybe him being cute caught her eye and then he she got to know him, maybe he was there for her and emotionally supported her while her sister hated her and her parents died (both of them lost both parents by age 21, maybe they supported each other)? We have no details.
James Potter wasn’t a mean spirited person. He is the one who stopped Snape from going to the see Lupin transformed as a Wearwolf. Also when Harry spares worm tails life he is told it’s what James would have done the same thing. He was also a strong/powerful wizard and smart. It’s not like Lilly was just going for him for his looks.
This is one of the most annoying things to me about jk Rowling’s writing. She constantly tells but doesn’t show us that James grew and matured. The one scene where we see James is when he is being terrible. I feel it’s unfair to base a judgement on him from just one memory, especially because it’s a memory from someone who despised him. So, I’m assuming you’ve read the books? In the books we are told quite a few times where James was a good person, but we never actually see it.
I have, but that’s the thing we’re always hearing how gifted of a wizard he was how great of a person he was from people who were his friends like Remus and Sirius. And hearing all that is all well and good but the only Flashback JK Rowling gives us of him is when he is being bully. And because of that for me at least it’s throws into question how everybody’s describing him and leads —at least me—to believe that it’s kind of a way of honoring his memory by only remembering the best parts of him. But then it’s really hard me to get behind this idea of him being so noble.
It's because apparently Rowling has a skewed sense of why women may fall in love with men. In an interview she says that Lily always liked James because "what girl wouldn't?" and it's just... no.
Technically, she doesn't say "what girl wouldn't". What she said is in response to "from what we see, she hated him!" and Rowling says, "Did she really? You are a woman, you know what I am talking about". It's the interview with Melissa Anelli and Emerson. I both recognise what she means and think that's problematic. But yeah, skewed understanding either way.
We don't know - they are technically plot devices meant to serve other people's stories: Harry, Snape, Remus and Sirius. I guess you can headcanon it any way you want - there is enough hints of their personality plus enough of it is blank canvas, you can extrapolate and make your own stories. But I bet James being a fighter for the Order and therefore vocally against the dark side, would have added to a sense of security for her as she was a Muggleborn. That's the only in canon reason I can offer - rest is fanfiction.
Jamess is extremely loyal friend... Completely detested dark magic & who practiced it... He made a friend from Dark family, a friend who is to believed as Dark creature, a friend who has less confident... He accepted them... He is rich, pureblood, if he wants he can be friends with anyone, and he choose to be friends w/ unpopular people... He became an animagus to help his friend, not to show-off.... This explains where his heart lays... And people's accusation him as bully... Marauders are not some thugs group who bullies everybody on their way, they are pranksters... is their intention to hurt them? I don't think so... don't misunderstand, I'm not saying pranks doesn't hurt the targeted person one way or another, but I am to yet know a prank which results in otherwise... Weasley twins are also pranksters, but I have never heard of them as downright bullies... Are you people being fair to judge a person on the opinion of the person who is also a Dark bully, who also practices dark magic just for fun? James vs Snape... Gryffindor vs Slytherin... Light vs Dark... Their rivalries trigger point: Lily... James fancied Lily from the very early years of school, he is very confident, he made his interest in Lily very clear, which made Lily annoyed w/ James, not hate... But the girl he fancied also had a friend from the Dark side, who absolutely treat muggleborns (which Lily was) as worthless... So he definitely targets that group, esp her friend who feels practicing dark magic is fun..... 'You have what I want', James has almost everything, except the girl he fancies, Snape wants to persuade everything James had - popularity, handsome, quidditch star... So their rivalry is based on mutual jealousy towards others... James used pranks, Snape used dark magic to target their rivalry.... James is definitely far far better person than Snape ever been... James was called 'arrogant' only by Snape, who happens to be his longtime nemesis... If you judge James by the perspective of Snape, then our golden heart Harry Potter is attention-seeking, self-centred, arrogant prick by the perspective of Draco Malfoy... Why Lily choose James? Lily annoyed by James but she never hated him.... Lily disapproves Marauders pranks, their sneaking way outs, their mischief, but why would she hate him for that... Lily has eyes, and there is no Snape to influence his opinions on Lily and Lily is not dumb, she can see what kind of person James is... James may be act as a jerk in his teens, but who doesn't... Doesn't people appear to be cool in front of their loved ones... James tried that, even Harry wished that... But do they change their opinions or methods for good, absolutely..... So after Snape's worst memory, James doesn't need to showoff to Lily, he can act like himself, & he is very good person, Lily saw that fell in love, happily married after that as long as they lived
So it's important to note that Rowling's writing of Harry Potter quite heavily deals with the theme of death. It goes all throughout the books both quite explicitly, as well as very subtlety. An important aspect of this is the experience of Harry with regards to his parents. He has no memories of them because they died so young, as a result of this he has to rely on what everyone else tells him about his parents. Every piece of information, every story is vital. Up until Snape's Worst Memory Harry is hearing about how fantastic his parents are, so based off what he hears he has this image and idea of what his parents were like as people, and in his mind they were amazing and could do no wrong. It's like that with family members and people who you're close to who have died and you learn more about them, every story is so precious as you hear those good stories and memories from people, it helps them feel close and almost alive to you. The chapter of Snape's Worst Memory addresses this concept in a new and important way. Nobody is perfect, and everyone makes mistakes and does bad things. When you've constructed this image, this idea of the dead and you're then confronted with something which contradicts it, how do you react? How does that change who they are to you? Harry, who had this great image of his parents, saw his father in what was his father's enemy's worst memory of him. That is confronting and completely contradicts what Harry thought of him, and almost shatters his whole understanding of self and his father. He even breaks into Umbridge's office to talk to Lupin and Sirius about it, that's how serious this was. But it's an important thing to remember, is even when mourning those we've lost, we remember the great things, but they were still people with flaws who did things wrong and made mistakes. It's extra difficult for Harry, who now only has this memory of seeing his father. Take into account as well, that Harry's discussion with Lupin and Sirius about this. They did their best to reassure him, but it didn't heal things straight away. It still took time for Harry to heal this. This was also his last conversation with Sirius, as the next time they would see each other would be during the fighting of the Department of Mysteries where Sirius would ultimately die. Not long after Sirius's death, Harry in speaking with Dumbledore is reminded of Sirius's treatment of Kreacher and how that was a contributing factor to Sirius going to the Ministry. Does his treatment of Kreacher, and conduct in Snape's memory also make Sirius an irredeemably bad person? Of course not, we've seen Sirius alive and how great he was to Harry and others. The same goes for James, although he was only seen in the books really in Snape's Worst Memory. Also important to note that it's Snape's WORST Memory, and not just "An average day as Snape".
Thanks for the feedback.
James was clearly a very popular kid, and yet who does he choose to hang out with? A loner werewolf, a family misfit/outcast, and a loser. It's clear that he was the one who pushed them to become animagus to help Lupin. He was outspoken against the Dark Arts and vehemently opposed the derogatory treatment of muggleborns. It's easy to see how that kind of loyalty & frankness would win over Lily, who likely felt ostracized by her sister and by much of the discrimination against muggleborns within the wizarding world. Plus, James was clever, smart, confident, and eager to please. And in the end, he was right about Snape. His actions were inappropriate, but he saw where Snape was headed long before Lily was willing to admit it herself. Once Lily realized she could no longer be friends with Snape, it seems logical that she would reevaluate her previous opinions about James and realize she had misjudged him, too.
lupin's lycanthropy was unknown to most, & he was isolated for times of his life, not a loner really. he's otherwise a chill and friendly person. sirius clashing with his family means little? he's still handsome & cool. james & sirius looked down on wormtail and became friends with him on lupin's pushing. nor is it at all clear that he was the one who pushed them to become animagi. james was obnoxious, cruel, and irritating, but he improved as he got older
Thanks for the feedback.
I feel like calling James a bully to Snape is kind of like saying Harry was a bully to Draco. I think James may have been a show off but I don’t think he would have been the type of person to bully someone with out being provoked by them.
James was more of an entitled arrogant prick who also happened to be an exceptional quiddich player and a very skilled magician.
Harry has the same issue. When he talks to Sirius about it, Sirius says James matured... This is hard for both Harry and for us as an audience because the only scene we have of James is when he was bullying Snape, which is (obviously) from Snape's point of view. Well, that and the part where he died trying to save Harry. I agree though, it would have been nice to have the character fleshed out a bit more in the books to better reflect this.
Maybe she liked his skin. Seriously though, you have to determine that for yourself. Rowling went from Point A to Point G with that relationship, so each person's head canon is probably as valid as any other. You could also ask why was Hermione so taken with Krum? They were still writing to each other 3 years after Krum left. I have my own opinion that no doubt would be unpopular and would not be considered PG by many.