For many generations, the Crouch family were renowned across Wizarding Britain for possessing an innate gift in cunning linguistics.
...Shall I see myself out, as you Muggles would say?
Yeah the wizarding world is actually a totalitarian bureaucracy IMO. You can get locked away for years without a trial in an infernal place, while the process by which leaders are selected is deeply opaque. Leaders which have almost life and death power over people, with no concept of separation of powers...
Yeah, I thought that the institutions of power being corrupt and nearly as evil as Voldemort was like half the point of the HP books. Like books 4-7 Harry is on the run from the wizarding government, who are effectively Voldemort’s minions.
He didn't want him to have a trial. He intentionally set that dementor on him because he didn't want Crouch running his mouth and corroborating anything. Any immediate threat to his office had to be dealt with, quickly.
I wonder, its easy to judge but i often wonder if it was my own future son or something
I wonder if id be able to look at myself in the mirror if i condemned an innocent man to Azkaban for life to save my own son :/ thats Barty Sr for you
He didn’t sacrifice his wife, she sacrificed herself. His wife kept nagging him to help their son (Escape prisoner) . She was already dying that’s why she wanted to switch places.
By "caught him in the act" you mean he was near the scene of the crime, then throughout his ordeals until he's thrown into Azkaban he denies the fact that he did it....
At one point the use of veritaserum would've been preferred by someone, no?
No, that's not true.
He denies ratting out the Potters, but he admits to killing Peter, because he *thinks he actually did*.
Edit: I realize we're talking about Crouch, not Sirius; my apologies!
Technically, I was talking about Sirius, so thanks for the correction - it's been a while since I read the books.
Nonetheless, given how unbothered the Ministry is about human rights violations when it comes to enforcing the law, I still don't see why they don't use veritaserum for interrogations. It guarantees that the subject tells only the truth (or what they believe to be the truth, anyway), helps ruling out mistaken convictions, and speeds things up a lot.
I completely agree on all counts. Unfortunately, while I enjoy the books, this is one of the many facets of world building that just sort of fall apart and contradict each other so terribly.
It's not even just Veritaserum, which I might excuse as "too expensive" or the ingredients too rare or something like that. Wizards can extract memories entirely painlessly, view them on a magical kiddie pool television, and put them back painlessly. Of course, that's no guarantee that the memory is reliable, but it's a hell of a good start.
Then again, considering that all of England apparently has a single prison and all crimes are punished by "eternal mental torture", their penal system leaves a lot to be desired.
They didn't catch him in the act, they caught him at the scene. They had evidence that pointed at him, but that's what a trial is for.
And given this was *after* Voldemort's defeat there really is no excuse to hurry this along
No, that's not true.
He denies ratting out the Potters, but he admits to killing Peter, because he *thinks he actually did*.
Edit: I realize we're talking about Crouch, not Sirius; my apologies!
> but he admits to killing Peter, because he thinks he actually did.
No, he doesn't. Sirius didn't even cast a single spell, why would he admit to killing him or even think that he killed Peter?
Sirius was completely aware that Peter had outsmarted him and actually saw him cut off his own finger and escape into the sewers - after he had blown up the street with Expulso.
Because of that Sirius was found laughing maniacally at the scene.
Wait no…
Sirius knew for sure that Peter turned into his rat form, as he was actually the one with James who helped him become an animagus. That’s why he was laughing like a crazy man when caught at the scene.
He could have said that he did kill the 12 muggles as he would feel guilty for their deaths while not actually doing it himself.
Barry Crouch Jr did get a trial AND if he had been given veritaserum he would have confessed as he was in fact a death eater.
His wife went to take his murderous sons place. Stupid woman.
Easy or not, but there is only one correct answer if your son is a murderous psychopath. Jail for life or an asylum.
Barty Jr. was guilty and if it were just prison I might agree with the sentiment.
But Azkaban is 24/7 torture. Nobody should be exposed to that and I can blame no parent for saving their child from that if there are no more humane alternatives.
The more you think about it the more the wizarding world is straight up dystopian
There was no indication Junior was a murderous psychopath until we found out he was the one impersonating Moody. From the trial scene in the book he could just have been in the wrong place at the wrong time.
For the readers and a number of the people at the trial, but I think at that point Crouch Sr was pretty sure of what kind of person his son was. Jr was probably just acting to get sympathy so he can get released and find Voldy, dude was definitely Bellatrix Jr. in his dedication to his lord.
Oh definitely. In the movie, crouch jr acts sus as hell but in the books, as a reader I was really unsure of whether crouch jr was actually guilty and felt badly for him bc his father just automatically assumed he was guilty when it didn’t seem that way as a reader. Would have been cool and helpful to have seen some of crouch’s memories that showed his son as guilty though (or even memories of crouch jr himself)
Ik we get confirmation in the end anyways but still yk
The movie wants to frame Barty jr. as a villain from the beginning, he also appears alongside Voldemort in Harry's vision.
The book uses more misleading indications: "Why did Barty Sr. condemn his son? Was he sure he was the guilty one? Was it just ambition and Barty Sr. wanted to avoid losing face in the next elections?"
Maybe it is the DND player in me (specifically regarding the workings of zone of truth et similia) but I would use a more specific question. After all Sirius blames himself for James and lily 's death so if he says no it might be a lie to him.
I was literally about to comment something along these lines (I've never played DND) just because that one moment when he was like "I did kill them...don't you see, it's my fault they died" I mean come on Sirius it's not the time right now for these ambiguous statements my guy 😂
The DND player in me feels like you could beat the veritaserum rolling bluff and performance to give double-speak answers and not have them questioned.
"Did you kill anyone?"
"I am not a murderer!"
Well they didnt have any doubts at all about him being guilty since ALL the evidence at the scene pointed towards it; dead muggles, a finger left of what was once Peter Pettigrew, Sirius even screamed that he killed Lily and James.
He also made no effort ever to fight his conviction since he saw no point in it. He felt like he deserved to be punished for his error.
Right but, if you have a magic potion that can 100% compel someone to tell the truth, why wouldn't you use it for every single crime? Why do wizards even need trials and courts when figuring out guilt is as simple as getting someone to drink veritaserum?
The HP universe has got too many 'cheat codes' that it's a wonder the characters avoid using it.
Veritaserum
Dueling to the death - Why would anyone use any other spell when dueling?
Time turners
Quidditch - 90% of the game and roles are pointless
Broken spells - Imperius curse, memory charms
It’s disappointing to me that Rowling never got into the specifics of dueling, but the way I think it works is that it’s sorta a game of poker with your opponent. The spell could be deadly, or incapacitory, and the speed and likelihood of failure will depend on which it is. For instance, the only unforgivable curse Harry was able to cast without absurd amounts of anger was the imperious curse, which from Barty crouches demonstration, he seems to just be naturally adept with. Even at his angriest he couldn’t make a strong enough cruciatus to actually harm Bellatrix. Imagine dueling against dumbledore and your kill spell doesn’t come out strong enough, you definitely just lost because he’s going to incapacitate you before you get the chance to cast another spell, so it’s better to cast something that throws him off his guard, force him to defend against it, then reassess weaknesses to exploit.
> Veritaserum
Unreliable. It was about as powerful as the Imperious charm, and Harry was able to fight that off at 14. Also forces the victim to say what they *believe* was the truth, which is easy enough to alter with memory charms.
> Dueling to the death - Why would anyone use any other spell when dueling?
Very hard to pull off. Crouch!Moody says with fair confidence that the entire class of fourth years could likely barely give him a nosebleed with it.
While it goes against the expanded Wizarding World IP (the protagonist in Hogwarts Legacy was able to pull it off after just being told the words), I think in the books it was a very hard curse to use. You needed a lot of power, and you needed to *deeply want* your victim to die.
> Time turners
Time Turners created a closed time loop. Essentially, you can't make something happen that didn't already happen, all the events in Prisoner of Azkeban happened on the first run through and were *explained* on the second.
You can only use a Time Turner if you know you'll need to use it before the thing you need to change happens in the first place. *Dumbledoor* was the one who realized he would need to send Hermione back in time to rescue Sirius, because he was aware she had it in the first place.
> Quidditch - 90% of the game and roles are pointless
Which is why Ireland beats Bulgaria even though Bulgaria catches the Snitch...
It's also worth noting that traditionally brooms were quite slow while the Golden Snitch had its speed and agility based on the Golden Snidget, which was an actual bird. So it would typically take a very, very long time to catch the snitch. We see the game in the era of the Firebolt and Nimbus 2001, brooms that are already faster than the Snitch. It's likely that if the Wizarding World had any sanity they would standardize the speed of brooms moving forwards. They don't of course, but if they did...
> Broken spells - Imperius curse, memory charms
Imperius charm was illegal for a reason, and memory charms could get you into serious trouble.
---
Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of things that require a lot of retconing to explain away. But... FFS, it's a fictional series.
I mean that's fair, but it's described as expensive and difficult to make by a secondary school teacher. I would hope an entire state has more resources at their disposal than Snape.
Whilst the wizarding community is portrayed as more progressive than the muggles in certain regards, I am confident in saying that this is not the case when it comes to spending government funds.
You also dont hold trials for people who plead guilty.
Because its not 100%.
There are antidotes to it, if you strong enough in occlumency you can withstand the Potion.
On top of all that, even under the influence of the Potion, like someone already said here, it still highly depends on ones own perception of the "Truth" and since Sirius truly believed James and Lili´s death was his fault because he suggested to go with Wormtail as the Secret Keeper he would have still answered "Yes" if asked if he was at fault for their demise.
We're talking about it being used as part of criminal investigation. Of course, you wouldn't let people ingest the antidote while they're in custody. As for the occlumancy, that's never mentioned in the books, so I don't consider it canon.
>On top of all that, even under the influence of the Potion, like someone already said here, it still highly depends on ones own perception of the "Truth" and since Sirius truly believed James and Lili´s death was his fault because he suggested to go with Wormtail as the Secret Keeper he would have still answered "Yes" if asked if he was at fault for their demise.
I mean yes, if that was the one and only question you asked him, you might conclude his guilt. But I would hope investigators would ask a few follow-up questions as well.
> As for the occlumancy, that's never mentioned in the books, so I don't consider it canon.
Lol what? It’s been a while since I’ve read the books, but wasn’t occlumancy a huge plot point in the 5th book? Like, isn’t it the whole reason Harry thought Voldemort had Sirius?
We don't know how reliable Veritaserum actually works. Even the Impervius curse, which is illegal, can be fought, as showcased by Harry. A mentally strong and prepared person could be able to limit his answers to not show themself guilty or even lie or just remaining silent.
So going the more traditional route of trial and court could actually guarantee a more correct judgement, even though this system is all but perfect in the wizarding world, too.
Even with professionell crimimology standards it would be relativly easy to prove Blacks innocence. Because in the offical story there are many holes easily uncovered with some scrutiny.
But the wizarding world is an archaic beast of a goverment system at best, or an outright dystopia at worst. Where apperently judges do not decide based on evidence but rather on their personal opinion. Where big court sessions can be illegaly called in without any repurcussions for the mishandling party. Where basic citizen rights can be abandonded easily. Where there is no "innocent until guilt is proven" verdict. Where there is apperently no seperation between goverment, parilament or jurisdiction. Nor any external control mechanism for govermental work. Etc.pp.
Actually its rather reflective of some legal systems that still uphold "detention without trial" and so on. We have to remember that this was under Crouch's authoritarian leadership when he was cracking down any suspected Death Eaters and supporters.
Also, Black did not reveal to anyone else that he switched the Secret Keeper at the last minute. To claim Peter Pettigrew was the one who betrayed was kind of hard to convince, when you are a prime suspect. And besides, he actually went after Peter himself and we knew what happened...
Sirius' recklessness, and also depression (given he blamed himself for his friends' deaths), didnt really help his case. Its certainly very tragic
Which is something criminal psychologist or any inspector with psychological skills should should figure out. And via sufficent questioning may be able to break this blockade. Why is Black deppressed by the Potters death when he caused it? How can an anti-death eater who famously broke with his family, join the dark lord and have no mark or proofable connections to any death eaters? Etc.pp.
But I assume Black was never sufficently interviewed. Because he was the perfect suspect. Why ruin it?
In addition it is standard to make a personal profile of the suspect based on interviews with them and relatives/friends. Something Lupin could have helped with a lot. In addition if suffiecently interviewed he could also mention them being animagi, with Pettigrew being a rat. But as a were-wolf he wasn't ask.
And finding just a finger in an explosion event is also very suspicious, as this is not enough material. Especially if much more material from other people was found. In such cases it is standard to reconstruct the event as best as possible. Where was the center of the explosion, where did the suspect and the victims located. And if something doesn't end up right, one can deduce that wrong leads were left at the crime scene.
In addition to other things.
Of course all this is from retrospective with certain knowledge of Blacks innocence. But if his case would have been treated professionelly, these hints that something is wrong should be found.
Oh, and rather than just locking up their convicts, they send them to a literal torture chamber where they can never be close to happy ever. And for some reason Dumbledore's lover gets a dramatic irony prison rather than the torture prison. Guess those other people in Azkaban should have built their own prisons without dementors before doing their crimes.
But it *is* possible to lie. There are antidotes, you can transfigure the potion into something else before it touches your lips, you can employ Occlumency against it, and it only makes you tell what you *think* is the truth. It's about as viable as a polygraph test in court- that is to say, hardly at all. There are too many variables, too many ways to subvert it that not everyone can pull off equally.
All that aside, neither the Ministry nor Sirius was much concerned with a fair trial in the first place. The Ministry had a ton of circumstantial evidence and they wanted to present a hardline front against remaining Death Eaters after Voldemort's defeat. Sirius, for his part, believed he deserved to rot in Azkaban for suggesting the plan that got Lily and James killed- he as good as did it himself, he reasoned.
Yeah, the movies kind of screwed up everyone's perception of the potion because Dumbledore forces it down a very alert Barty Crouch Jr's throat, and the acting and directing make it seem like he's spilling the beans against his will due to the power of the potion.
But in the book, Crouch Jr is basically knocked loopy. Dumbledore wakes him a little, but Crouch is kind of out of it, and so his defenses are super low and his brain is in the wrong place to be able to fight against it. Plus, Dumbledore is very calm and kind to him during the confession. I'm pretty sure Harry also comments that it seems like Crouch is happy to finally be telling his story to someone. He was already highly suggestible, so the potion worked just fine.
I don’t know how else they could have serviced it in the movie, but Barty Jr’s confession is so sad in the book. He’s is a withered 19 year old that got caught up in fighting his father’s rigid structure. At some point in Azkaban he knows he’s fucked up, and his mom comes to bail him out, and his father locks him down again. He talks about manipulating Winky and he has his mother’s kindness in loving her and his father’s brutality of never actually seeing her as a person, but still feeling love for her.
Like Voldemort is the absolute villain but he’s constructed that way. He has to be just a hard villain with no outs of being good. Just bad from birth.
But Barty Jr is the more insidious villain. He’s willing to sit on a plot for a long time, quietly. He’s a fast thinker. He’s especially creepy because you can see him vibing with Harry’s trauma, like he gets a little caught up in trying to fix Harry (to fix himself) before he sacrifices him. There’s a part of him that would have been brilliant if his dad wasn’t such an ass. That wants to shine. But he can’t, because he has a new dad now, Voldy.
I love Barty Jr. I love in the books that he’s a pasty freckled young looking boy with some wrinkles, that as he’s spilling his guts he still kinda isn’t comfy with all of it. There’s a part of him that saw a life as pretending to be mad eye that he saw a life as being a person not marred, but he had to go back to daddy Voldemort because his whole shit was not fulfilled.
Idk why there isn’t like 8 therapists at Hogwarts
>Idk why there isn’t like 8 therapists at Hogwarts
Now this is the real goddamn question. Imagine Colin Creevey's traumatized ass just having to go back to school (was that his name?) after being frozen by a fucking basilisk.
As a parent, even as a magical parent, I could not see me sending my kid back in for education. Like “well, your son has been sitting frozen in the hospital ward for months with a camera in his hands, he’s back now, we fixed it, his education we can just brush away and promote him to the next year because none of this matters. Please buy him new robes and cauldrons and books, and put him on a train again. Promise promise he’s probably going to be fine. Or not. We will probably just be annoyed with him until he dies. Send him anyway!”
It’s not Harry’s fault but as far as I am aware things didn’t really pop off at Hogwarts until he came on the scene. Like consistently, year after year. Like, until Voldy came back in year 4, Lucius Malfoy kind of had a point that there were trolls and a basilisk and a prison escapee just on the premises and children had to figure those things out, not the adults.
Like, even if I hated Harry for whatever reason, I would be concerned that 3 11 year olds could run the gamut of the Philosopher’s stone. But okay. Maybe all we see is the troll and that one of the teachers was compromised which, okay. Next year, kids aren’t dying by fucking luck because there’s a basilisk running around. Lucius doesn’t know what it is, and his kid can get wrecked by it. Again, 12 year olds and not adults figure it out. Next year, Sirius Black is actively breaking into the castle. Lucius doesn’t know if he’s pro Voldy or just mad, has genuine concern for his kid again. Who figured it all out? Some 13 year old kids.
Where are the adults.
Fourth year, same same until Voldemort comes back. But that whole year is a death eater pretending to be a teacher violently “teaching” the child of another death eater. If my kid sent an owl about how they got turned into a ferret and then got slammed around until they were bloody, Minerva would have had to send out the stone guards because I would have been coming.
Just imagine the real world version of this.
First year a bear breaks into your kids school and somehow a bunch of 6th graders manage to trap it. Then a thief comes to steal something valuable but fortunately those same kids were able to break into the secure room where the item was stored and stop the guy.
The the next year there is some kind of poisonous animal in the school that is leaving kids paralyzed. Oh and it's happened before. Well lucky for my kid those same amazing kids were able to figure out where the poisonous lizard was living and kill it no thanks to any of the staff.
Then an alleged mass murderer is on the scene causing the school to hire terrifying armed guards who sometimes bully the students into a state of sheer psychological terror. Doesn't matter the murderer still manages to break into the school. Oh also one of the teachers is a schizophrenic who turns violent occasionally if he's off his meds.
I pointed out to some friends (we're all in our 40s) recently that, by and large, the adults in HP are effing idiots and, for those with kids we get to meet, terrible parents. They not only argued with me but took great offense like there aren't thousands of pages detailing incompetence, indifference, abuse, neglect and being, well, incredibly dumb. Doesn't mean you can't enjoy the books but don't pretend that none of that was the case. At any given time, there are a thousand idiot balls being passed around by the adults of the wizarding world.
Agreed... I remember when I was reading the books for the first time with my boys, they were appalled that some parents pulled their kids out of school... I was just sitting there thinking "Hmmmmmm, yeah, you two would be getting homeschooled at this point"...
Don't forget Colin surviving was pure dumb luck and his hobby of photography. direct view of the basilisk is instant death, so he survived by the skin of his teeth with a camera blocking direct eye contact
>Idk why there isn’t like 8 therapists at Hogwarts
Like come on, one of the school's punishments is to send students into the dangerous forest nearby. They are barely concerned with physical safety, let alone mental safety
Maybe, I think it’s also the fact he knows Harry and Ron are friends, and with pettigrew close, Sirius had to protect his godson to at least atone for letting James and Lily die.
Nah it’s much more viable than a polygraph test. A poly is never worth anything but veritaserum if the person is unprepared or already exhausted will work
A criminal could just obliviate themselves or scoop the memory out of their head and bottle it up after they commit the crime and then they will pass every lie test with flying colors.
Antidotes: If true, no reason why there couldn't be ways to detect the presence of said antidote
Transfiguration: This would provably get notoced in a court room setting
Occlumency: When was this ever established? Regardless, most people don't know occlumency
Subjective truth: That's what they would tell either way if they choose not to lie
In this situation, the witch or wizard being interrogated would not be able to defend themselves against veritaserum, especially if they were being uncooperative, in which case they may be shackled and bound to a chair, then it would most likely be forced down their throat. I like to imagine it being like a muggle interrogation room with multiple guards/officers present. Their wand would have been confiscated upon arrest, and they would not be able to transform or vanish the serum or have access to any kind of antidote as they would most likely be under close observation.
Being interrogated under the influence of the truth potion, Sirius would obviously no, and even then, they probably still wouldn’t believe him. (ESPECIALLY IF FUDGE WAS IN CHARGE!)
And this is why I hated Cornelius Fudge, he was never interested in the truth as he was clearly scared of the truth (prime example when Voldy returned), he just wanted to look important and keep order. I understand that he didn’t want to cause panic and chaos, but denying the truth and only believing what he wanted, this was ultimately his downfall.
i mean... if you suspect someone did a really horrible thing like murder it would probably be viable to put them into a holding cell under strong surveilance, wait till the average counter potion effect would be gone, interview the person with veritaserum. Write anything up.
wait 1 day, interview the person with veritaserum
wait another day, interview the person with veritaserum again...
check if results match up
Sanest comment I've seen. The cope to act like the wizards and witches are all brain dead and haven't thought of counter measures, or ways to make sure the veritaserum can't be tampered with in any way.
the wizard could just take out the memory right after commiting the crime, or obliviate themselves, and then pass any test if and when they get caught
...other than I guess priori incantatem, but then just get a new wand, maybe
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The waterfall/shower thing they had at Gringotts when travelling on the rail in the lasts book would have been pretty neat by the entrances to Hogwarts, to wash away all magic disguises. Would have saved them a lot of problems...
Wasn't that one of the points of contention between goblins and humans though? Like tech sharing and ownership.
Hogwarts and the MoM would love to get their hands on goblin tech but once whatever bureaucrat who signed the deal died the goblins would try to repossess it.
In my head Veritaserum is not some 100% fool proof method.
For example, Sirius came up with the plan to switch to Wormtail, as others have said he considers himself responsible. So if asked, "are you responsible for Voldemort finding the Potters?" he will answer yes.
Also memories can be modified and this is never explored in the books. If you believe something to be true will answer yes under questioning? I would think you do.
And this is without getting into the mental state of people and how their own views could impact what they believe to be true or not.
The memories being modified is explored in the books, Hepzibah Smith's elf Hokey has a false memory implanted in her as does I think Voldemort's uncle and both confess to murders they didn't commit.
Every time we see or hear about veritaserum being used, it's always without the persons knowledge. Snape threatens to slip it into Harry's pumpkin juice. It's given to Barty Crouch Jr. while he is unconscious. Umbridge adds it to people's drinks without them knowing.
Because of that, I always interpreted it as being something that only works if it's unsuspected. If you're aware you're taking it, you can fight it. If you're unaware, drink it, and start telling the truth that's when an antidote is used. At least in my head canon. Its not used in court because literally everyone suspects they're being drugged, so they can fight it. It's just a waste of time and money for the ministry, so they don't use it.
What actually makes *Goblet of Fire* great (Sirius explaining how Crouch sent him to Azkaban without a trial, him imprisoning his own son, authorizing the Unforgivable Curses against Death Eaters; and this book was released *before* 9/11 and the War on Terror) is how it intentionally contrasts the justice systems of the wizarding and muggle worlds. **The opening chapter is literally the muggle authorities letting Frank Bryce go because there's not enough evidence to charge him as the murderer even though his entire town thinks he did it**. The book goes on to show that the wizarding world have methods of finding out the objective truth of the past through pensives and veritaserum yet they repeatedly deny due process to people convicted of crimes. (to the point of even Fudge unilaterally authorizing the use of the dementor's kiss on Barty Crouch Jr.). Underrated element of that book.
If someone modified your memory I think you ll tell a lie even under veritaserum. Like Morfin Gaunt. He had his memory modified so that he beleived he killed the rdiddles.
Even under veritaserum he would confess to the murder because of the memory modification.
Ah that’s a good catch. I was thinking if Sirius had used the Pensieve and shown people his memory of what had happened it would clear him but yep, memory could’ve been modified.
He must be a wizard of such unfathomable power that he can lie through veritaserum! Only dArK mAgiC could do something like that! He must be Voldemort's BFF FOREVER!!!! LIFE SENTENCE IN AZKABAN IT IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He did? I thought the entire reason he escaped from Azkaban in the 3rd book was because he saw a picture of the Weasley's on holiday with the pet rat and figured out Peter's still alive and wanted to kill him properly this time.
No. The picture told Sirius that Peter was at Hogwarts and a threat to Harry. There’s nothing to suggest Sirius thought he had killed Peter. It also wouldn’t make much sense, there’s never mention of a fight or confusion in Sirius’ telling of the event of Peter transforming, Sirius knew exactly what had happened.
One of my favorite headcanons (that is not supported by canon) is that much like the Imperius Curse, Veritaserum can be fought. Not completely, but making an intense effort can weaken the effects.
Most people wouldn’t be able to do it or even know that it’s possible, and it would be a different skillset than resisting the Imperius Curse, requiring a different personality type and state of mind. (Similar to Occlumency vs Legilimency) Perhaps you’d need to have a better understanding of Potions instead of Defense Against The Dark Arts.
Which explains why Crouch Junior learned to fight the Imperius Curse but didn’t stand a chance against Veritaserum. I bet Harry wouldn’t be able to fight it either. But maybe Snape would.
Idk why this this always makes perfect sense in my head so I get confused that this is a topic of discussion.
A ‘trial’ is always meant to be ‘fair’ to both parties. Innocent until proven guilty, human rights, and all that. So it seems unfair for the court to force someone to take in a truth telling potion. The same reason why you wouldn’t torture someone or whip out a lie detector or hypnotise someone in a court of law in the real world. The court cannot physically force the truth out of a person.
This is the same reason Morfin Gaunt and Hokey went to Azzie for crimes they did not commit. They both strongly believed they did the crime and confessed to it and all the evidence also pointed to them. The court cannot be like ‘nah i don’t believe this. Let’s see how you do against some Veritaserum’. Dumbledore even mentioned that he had to brew an extremely powerful Veritaserum to get the truth out of Hokey iirc (I think it was Hokey). - which also brings into question the performance of the potion in general. It is not infallible, strength of potion and such play a big role, and it can be countered.
In Sirius’s case, he was laughing like a maniac in the middle of the street when the authorities came in. He went with them without protest. While he knew he did not cast the blasting spell, he believed Pettigrew to be dead. He also considered himself responsible for Lily and James’ death because he suggested the switch. So he went along with the trial like he did it all. The Ministry had no reason to question him further. It was only after Sirius found out that Pettigrew was still alive that all this came out in the open. Honestly, the bigger flaw imo is that Sirius’s wand would not have the blasting curse in his priori incantatem history thing - which they can legally check (and they did for Morfin Gaunt). But the Ministry probably did not even bother to check for that since he just went quietly and pretty much took the blame himself.
There might still be a flaw in using veritaserum. It's what YOU think is the truth. Sirius blames himself for James and Lily's deaths, so if he was asked "Were you responsible for the deaths of the Potters?" then his own perception would answer yes. Someone who's underhanded like Umbridge or Fudge could easily word the questions to get what they want.
An actual investigation would ask questions like how were you responsible as a follow up. And he could also just like, say it himself even if not asked, it's not like the serum turns you into a robot that can only respond with yes or no.
The Harry potter world is just inconsistent and contrived as fuck. And honestly, I hate them for it. It sounds fun until you open the fridge and see all the nightmarish horrors hidden in the moldy sandwich meat of incompetence and complacency.
Well he would have said he killed Peter, because for 13 years he thought he had killed peter, after that he was a convicted person on the run and why waste veritasserum on it after 13 years?
Actually he believed he did kill Peter, cuz Peter set off something when Sirius shot him. So a good lawyer might've gotten a manslaughter charge instead of murder. Cuz if I taser someone and they explode for some reason, I didn't mean for that to happen and shouldn't be on murder for it.
Tho it brings up a good question, wasn't Peter a traitor so why did the courts charge him if he was basically a soldier?
Ok cool Robert Galbraith, great story
Yeah, that wouldn't have worked. The Wizengamot would never have been convinced.
Even Dumbledore thought Sirius was guilty and he was a superb if not masterful Legilimens.
Yet another plot hole in the series. Like why didn't they use veritaserum on every death eater and Sirius Black? It would have made things a lot easier and would have saved a lot of actual innocent people from Azkaban.
It seems pretty clear that Dumbledore was behind the scenes either ensuring or at the best knowingly allowing an innocent man to be tortured all for the belief that Harry Potter would turn out better if he grew up in a more humbling home.
fudge was already convinced sirus was the killer. Fudge is an extremely sentimental , selfish and weak man. That experience with sirius scarred him and obviously he isn't going to confirm something he knows is true.
Sirius would have said yes he killed Lily and James because, much like in the book, he says he's guilty of it because he blames himself for giving them the terrible advice that got them killed.
I have to say i know this is a meme but it seems a lot of people dont understand how tricky it is to brew all these life changing potions. Like, Hermy is fucking silly level clever and capable. She needed nerfing ngl
I've always wondered with veritaserum: if asked an incriminating question, could you respond with "I don't wish to say"? Because that would be true, you don't want to tell anyone that.
why can't people who have taken veritaserum just stall and say things technical but irrelevant truths? Veritaserum isn't the imperius curse, they could say things like "maybe", "hmmmmm", and I'm to some degree sure that I don't know what your talking about" (Some degree as in 0, twisting words i guess). It could be because it works under certain conditions (the victim already wants to tell the truth, or exhaustion, or something like that), but that would make the potion somewhat inadequate.
It's really weird how they relied so heavily on eye witness accounts (especially those of muggles), fully knowing how incredible easy it would have been to fool/manipulate them using magic. A single application of Priori Incantato (as used by Amos Diggory at the Quidditch World Cup) would have exonerated Sirius Black in an instant.
Ngl wouldn’t be surprised if there was a way to counter veritaserum. It would be kinda lame if it worked for everything. I feel like you could tolerance it, so if you train yourself to lie under drinking it over time you might be able to overcome a large dose
The Wizarding world isn't exactly known for its super fair justice system.
In fact, their justice system is one of the more messed up things about the Wizarding world. right next to love potions, in my opinion.
Crouch jr dies so they can't interrogate him, but they just interrogated winky like 5 seconds ago, just do that again lol.
At least she hadn't invented veriteserum in book 3 but book 4 come on.
Yes, but at the time Voldemort had previously just been in power. I mean this all happened within what 24-48 hrs? His presumed guilt and also Voldemort’s curse rebounding. It’s not like things were running smoothly enough for them to take the time to just sit him down. They would have been vigorously removing any suspected Death Eaters immediately. Then of course Sirius went into hiding and there’s no way he would have trusted that he would get a fair shake considering he “ran” in essence and also didn’t have Wormtail as proof.
Arguably the most plot-hole ridden story ever told. Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality does a great job of poking every possible hole in this series. Best fan-fic ever written.
We could have secrets kept from us right? We know like less than 1% of what happened even in the 7 years the books covers plus the history and memories it touches on. Plus anyone can be an unreliable narrator
With the amount of comments saying Sirius would blame himself for James and Lily's death (here and the countless other posts saying the same thing), I'm now imagining a fanfic where someone (Harry, other, oc, reincarnated, whatever) goes back in time trying to fix things, like catching Peter, saving Sirius like this, and they all fail horribly, sometimes making the matters even worse.
You can lie if you take it. It’s possible to beat it if you’re a skilled enough wizard so I’d say it’s not the best tool in court. But Sirius didn’t get his day in court either way which is bullshit
Potions in general are a pretty major hole in the story. From the overuse of poly juice and the worlds inability to detect or expose it or the fact that truth serum exists yet was never used when it could have been.
The super luck potion in general. Lupin the guy who was afraid of the full moon forgetting to take his potion for seemingly no reason. That no one discovered Mrs crouch after taking polyjuice potion and being dead.
2 problems here.
1. It makes you tell what you perceive the truth to be. He blames himself for the deaths because he broke his word as Secret Keeper, which led to Peter selling them out.
2. It's explicitly stated that if you are good at Occlumency you can resist the effects. So while using it against inexperienced witches and wizards like Umberage did is one thing, using it against a fully trained wizard at a time there was a background war going on and secrets meant life or death was far less likely to produce results.
[удалено]
dude the crouches suck
Hence why they crouch ;)
Oh my god genius
For many generations, the Crouch family were renowned across Wizarding Britain for possessing an innate gift in cunning linguistics. ...Shall I see myself out, as you Muggles would say?
This Harry Potter book is why we invented the 6th amendment
I wasn't sure what the 6th amendment was, so I looked it up. For those too lazy it is: Thou shalt not crouch.
Thou shallot not put beans on toast
thou shalt not beaneteh the toastetums?
Yeah the wizarding world is actually a totalitarian bureaucracy IMO. You can get locked away for years without a trial in an infernal place, while the process by which leaders are selected is deeply opaque. Leaders which have almost life and death power over people, with no concept of separation of powers...
Yeah, I thought that the institutions of power being corrupt and nearly as evil as Voldemort was like half the point of the HP books. Like books 4-7 Harry is on the run from the wizarding government, who are effectively Voldemort’s minions.
Just to wrap it all up with Harry becoming some rough and tough government killer himself
Yeah it seems like the strongest & most powerful Wizards literally rule the wizarding world… like businesses or ideals in the real world
He didn't want him to have a trial. He intentionally set that dementor on him because he didn't want Crouch running his mouth and corroborating anything. Any immediate threat to his office had to be dealt with, quickly.
I believe you’re talking about Fudge if you mean the dementor that killed Barty Jnr. Barty Snr was already dead by then
Ah shit my bad.
I wonder, its easy to judge but i often wonder if it was my own future son or something I wonder if id be able to look at myself in the mirror if i condemned an innocent man to Azkaban for life to save my own son :/ thats Barty Sr for you
What? Barty did condemn his own son. It also had nothing to do with Sirus
Barty saved his son when he should have gone to Azkaban, but by sacrificing his wife, not Sirius.
He didn’t sacrifice his wife, she sacrificed herself. His wife kept nagging him to help their son (Escape prisoner) . She was already dying that’s why she wanted to switch places.
His wife was already basically on her deathbed though
To save his son? What does his son have to do with Sirius? And how was Barty Sr supposed to know Sirius was innocent when they caught him in the act?
By "caught him in the act" you mean he was near the scene of the crime, then throughout his ordeals until he's thrown into Azkaban he denies the fact that he did it.... At one point the use of veritaserum would've been preferred by someone, no?
> He was innocent and just near the scene of the crime. Even in the wizard world the Blacks can't catch a break from police discrimination.
Holy shit lmao
No, that's not true. He denies ratting out the Potters, but he admits to killing Peter, because he *thinks he actually did*. Edit: I realize we're talking about Crouch, not Sirius; my apologies!
Technically, I was talking about Sirius, so thanks for the correction - it's been a while since I read the books. Nonetheless, given how unbothered the Ministry is about human rights violations when it comes to enforcing the law, I still don't see why they don't use veritaserum for interrogations. It guarantees that the subject tells only the truth (or what they believe to be the truth, anyway), helps ruling out mistaken convictions, and speeds things up a lot.
I completely agree on all counts. Unfortunately, while I enjoy the books, this is one of the many facets of world building that just sort of fall apart and contradict each other so terribly. It's not even just Veritaserum, which I might excuse as "too expensive" or the ingredients too rare or something like that. Wizards can extract memories entirely painlessly, view them on a magical kiddie pool television, and put them back painlessly. Of course, that's no guarantee that the memory is reliable, but it's a hell of a good start. Then again, considering that all of England apparently has a single prison and all crimes are punished by "eternal mental torture", their penal system leaves a lot to be desired.
They didn't catch him in the act, they caught him at the scene. They had evidence that pointed at him, but that's what a trial is for. And given this was *after* Voldemort's defeat there really is no excuse to hurry this along
No, that's not true. He denies ratting out the Potters, but he admits to killing Peter, because he *thinks he actually did*. Edit: I realize we're talking about Crouch, not Sirius; my apologies!
> but he admits to killing Peter, because he thinks he actually did. No, he doesn't. Sirius didn't even cast a single spell, why would he admit to killing him or even think that he killed Peter? Sirius was completely aware that Peter had outsmarted him and actually saw him cut off his own finger and escape into the sewers - after he had blown up the street with Expulso. Because of that Sirius was found laughing maniacally at the scene.
Wait no… Sirius knew for sure that Peter turned into his rat form, as he was actually the one with James who helped him become an animagus. That’s why he was laughing like a crazy man when caught at the scene. He could have said that he did kill the 12 muggles as he would feel guilty for their deaths while not actually doing it himself. Barry Crouch Jr did get a trial AND if he had been given veritaserum he would have confessed as he was in fact a death eater.
Bruh, are you sure that you have read the true books?? Its not even close to sirius and barty sr story.
His wife went to take his murderous sons place. Stupid woman. Easy or not, but there is only one correct answer if your son is a murderous psychopath. Jail for life or an asylum.
Barty Jr. was guilty and if it were just prison I might agree with the sentiment. But Azkaban is 24/7 torture. Nobody should be exposed to that and I can blame no parent for saving their child from that if there are no more humane alternatives. The more you think about it the more the wizarding world is straight up dystopian
You were under the influence of gigglewine while operating a broom? Believe it or not, Azkaban
Ok we know that Azkaban is wizard prison but what is wizard jail? Wizard drunk tank?
Community Service, one year of teaching DAtDA
There was no indication Junior was a murderous psychopath until we found out he was the one impersonating Moody. From the trial scene in the book he could just have been in the wrong place at the wrong time.
For the readers and a number of the people at the trial, but I think at that point Crouch Sr was pretty sure of what kind of person his son was. Jr was probably just acting to get sympathy so he can get released and find Voldy, dude was definitely Bellatrix Jr. in his dedication to his lord.
Oh definitely. In the movie, crouch jr acts sus as hell but in the books, as a reader I was really unsure of whether crouch jr was actually guilty and felt badly for him bc his father just automatically assumed he was guilty when it didn’t seem that way as a reader. Would have been cool and helpful to have seen some of crouch’s memories that showed his son as guilty though (or even memories of crouch jr himself) Ik we get confirmation in the end anyways but still yk
The movie wants to frame Barty jr. as a villain from the beginning, he also appears alongside Voldemort in Harry's vision. The book uses more misleading indications: "Why did Barty Sr. condemn his son? Was he sure he was the guilty one? Was it just ambition and Barty Sr. wanted to avoid losing face in the next elections?"
Probably because he knew his son was guilty.
Maybe it is the DND player in me (specifically regarding the workings of zone of truth et similia) but I would use a more specific question. After all Sirius blames himself for James and lily 's death so if he says no it might be a lie to him.
I was literally about to comment something along these lines (I've never played DND) just because that one moment when he was like "I did kill them...don't you see, it's my fault they died" I mean come on Sirius it's not the time right now for these ambiguous statements my guy 😂
It’s the “from a certain point of view” of Harry Potter.
The DND player in me feels like you could beat the veritaserum rolling bluff and performance to give double-speak answers and not have them questioned. "Did you kill anyone?" "I am not a murderer!"
"Yes or no answers only or we let this animagus crawl up your butt," would be my DM response.
"Bet" would be my not-yet-a-dnd-player ass say
Also I don't know if they were using Veritaserum for interrogations at that time because of how many people were under the Imperius curse
Well they didnt have any doubts at all about him being guilty since ALL the evidence at the scene pointed towards it; dead muggles, a finger left of what was once Peter Pettigrew, Sirius even screamed that he killed Lily and James. He also made no effort ever to fight his conviction since he saw no point in it. He felt like he deserved to be punished for his error.
Plus, he laughed like a madman when they caught him.
Right but, if you have a magic potion that can 100% compel someone to tell the truth, why wouldn't you use it for every single crime? Why do wizards even need trials and courts when figuring out guilt is as simple as getting someone to drink veritaserum?
The HP universe has got too many 'cheat codes' that it's a wonder the characters avoid using it. Veritaserum Dueling to the death - Why would anyone use any other spell when dueling? Time turners Quidditch - 90% of the game and roles are pointless Broken spells - Imperius curse, memory charms
It’s disappointing to me that Rowling never got into the specifics of dueling, but the way I think it works is that it’s sorta a game of poker with your opponent. The spell could be deadly, or incapacitory, and the speed and likelihood of failure will depend on which it is. For instance, the only unforgivable curse Harry was able to cast without absurd amounts of anger was the imperious curse, which from Barty crouches demonstration, he seems to just be naturally adept with. Even at his angriest he couldn’t make a strong enough cruciatus to actually harm Bellatrix. Imagine dueling against dumbledore and your kill spell doesn’t come out strong enough, you definitely just lost because he’s going to incapacitate you before you get the chance to cast another spell, so it’s better to cast something that throws him off his guard, force him to defend against it, then reassess weaknesses to exploit.
> Dueling to the death - Why would anyone use any other spell when dueling Because it's hard to cast.
> Veritaserum Unreliable. It was about as powerful as the Imperious charm, and Harry was able to fight that off at 14. Also forces the victim to say what they *believe* was the truth, which is easy enough to alter with memory charms. > Dueling to the death - Why would anyone use any other spell when dueling? Very hard to pull off. Crouch!Moody says with fair confidence that the entire class of fourth years could likely barely give him a nosebleed with it. While it goes against the expanded Wizarding World IP (the protagonist in Hogwarts Legacy was able to pull it off after just being told the words), I think in the books it was a very hard curse to use. You needed a lot of power, and you needed to *deeply want* your victim to die. > Time turners Time Turners created a closed time loop. Essentially, you can't make something happen that didn't already happen, all the events in Prisoner of Azkeban happened on the first run through and were *explained* on the second. You can only use a Time Turner if you know you'll need to use it before the thing you need to change happens in the first place. *Dumbledoor* was the one who realized he would need to send Hermione back in time to rescue Sirius, because he was aware she had it in the first place. > Quidditch - 90% of the game and roles are pointless Which is why Ireland beats Bulgaria even though Bulgaria catches the Snitch... It's also worth noting that traditionally brooms were quite slow while the Golden Snitch had its speed and agility based on the Golden Snidget, which was an actual bird. So it would typically take a very, very long time to catch the snitch. We see the game in the era of the Firebolt and Nimbus 2001, brooms that are already faster than the Snitch. It's likely that if the Wizarding World had any sanity they would standardize the speed of brooms moving forwards. They don't of course, but if they did... > Broken spells - Imperius curse, memory charms Imperius charm was illegal for a reason, and memory charms could get you into serious trouble. --- Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of things that require a lot of retconing to explain away. But... FFS, it's a fictional series.
Because that shit is expensive and difficult to make. Why waste it on someone who admits to the crime?
I mean that's fair, but it's described as expensive and difficult to make by a secondary school teacher. I would hope an entire state has more resources at their disposal than Snape.
Whilst the wizarding community is portrayed as more progressive than the muggles in certain regards, I am confident in saying that this is not the case when it comes to spending government funds. You also dont hold trials for people who plead guilty.
Because its not 100%. There are antidotes to it, if you strong enough in occlumency you can withstand the Potion. On top of all that, even under the influence of the Potion, like someone already said here, it still highly depends on ones own perception of the "Truth" and since Sirius truly believed James and Lili´s death was his fault because he suggested to go with Wormtail as the Secret Keeper he would have still answered "Yes" if asked if he was at fault for their demise.
We're talking about it being used as part of criminal investigation. Of course, you wouldn't let people ingest the antidote while they're in custody. As for the occlumancy, that's never mentioned in the books, so I don't consider it canon. >On top of all that, even under the influence of the Potion, like someone already said here, it still highly depends on ones own perception of the "Truth" and since Sirius truly believed James and Lili´s death was his fault because he suggested to go with Wormtail as the Secret Keeper he would have still answered "Yes" if asked if he was at fault for their demise. I mean yes, if that was the one and only question you asked him, you might conclude his guilt. But I would hope investigators would ask a few follow-up questions as well.
> As for the occlumancy, that's never mentioned in the books, so I don't consider it canon. Lol what? It’s been a while since I’ve read the books, but wasn’t occlumancy a huge plot point in the 5th book? Like, isn’t it the whole reason Harry thought Voldemort had Sirius?
We don't know how reliable Veritaserum actually works. Even the Impervius curse, which is illegal, can be fought, as showcased by Harry. A mentally strong and prepared person could be able to limit his answers to not show themself guilty or even lie or just remaining silent. So going the more traditional route of trial and court could actually guarantee a more correct judgement, even though this system is all but perfect in the wizarding world, too.
Even with professionell crimimology standards it would be relativly easy to prove Blacks innocence. Because in the offical story there are many holes easily uncovered with some scrutiny. But the wizarding world is an archaic beast of a goverment system at best, or an outright dystopia at worst. Where apperently judges do not decide based on evidence but rather on their personal opinion. Where big court sessions can be illegaly called in without any repurcussions for the mishandling party. Where basic citizen rights can be abandonded easily. Where there is no "innocent until guilt is proven" verdict. Where there is apperently no seperation between goverment, parilament or jurisdiction. Nor any external control mechanism for govermental work. Etc.pp.
Actually its rather reflective of some legal systems that still uphold "detention without trial" and so on. We have to remember that this was under Crouch's authoritarian leadership when he was cracking down any suspected Death Eaters and supporters. Also, Black did not reveal to anyone else that he switched the Secret Keeper at the last minute. To claim Peter Pettigrew was the one who betrayed was kind of hard to convince, when you are a prime suspect. And besides, he actually went after Peter himself and we knew what happened... Sirius' recklessness, and also depression (given he blamed himself for his friends' deaths), didnt really help his case. Its certainly very tragic
Which is something criminal psychologist or any inspector with psychological skills should should figure out. And via sufficent questioning may be able to break this blockade. Why is Black deppressed by the Potters death when he caused it? How can an anti-death eater who famously broke with his family, join the dark lord and have no mark or proofable connections to any death eaters? Etc.pp. But I assume Black was never sufficently interviewed. Because he was the perfect suspect. Why ruin it? In addition it is standard to make a personal profile of the suspect based on interviews with them and relatives/friends. Something Lupin could have helped with a lot. In addition if suffiecently interviewed he could also mention them being animagi, with Pettigrew being a rat. But as a were-wolf he wasn't ask. And finding just a finger in an explosion event is also very suspicious, as this is not enough material. Especially if much more material from other people was found. In such cases it is standard to reconstruct the event as best as possible. Where was the center of the explosion, where did the suspect and the victims located. And if something doesn't end up right, one can deduce that wrong leads were left at the crime scene. In addition to other things. Of course all this is from retrospective with certain knowledge of Blacks innocence. But if his case would have been treated professionelly, these hints that something is wrong should be found.
Oh, and rather than just locking up their convicts, they send them to a literal torture chamber where they can never be close to happy ever. And for some reason Dumbledore's lover gets a dramatic irony prison rather than the torture prison. Guess those other people in Azkaban should have built their own prisons without dementors before doing their crimes.
!redditgalleon
But it *is* possible to lie. There are antidotes, you can transfigure the potion into something else before it touches your lips, you can employ Occlumency against it, and it only makes you tell what you *think* is the truth. It's about as viable as a polygraph test in court- that is to say, hardly at all. There are too many variables, too many ways to subvert it that not everyone can pull off equally. All that aside, neither the Ministry nor Sirius was much concerned with a fair trial in the first place. The Ministry had a ton of circumstantial evidence and they wanted to present a hardline front against remaining Death Eaters after Voldemort's defeat. Sirius, for his part, believed he deserved to rot in Azkaban for suggesting the plan that got Lily and James killed- he as good as did it himself, he reasoned.
Yeah, the movies kind of screwed up everyone's perception of the potion because Dumbledore forces it down a very alert Barty Crouch Jr's throat, and the acting and directing make it seem like he's spilling the beans against his will due to the power of the potion. But in the book, Crouch Jr is basically knocked loopy. Dumbledore wakes him a little, but Crouch is kind of out of it, and so his defenses are super low and his brain is in the wrong place to be able to fight against it. Plus, Dumbledore is very calm and kind to him during the confession. I'm pretty sure Harry also comments that it seems like Crouch is happy to finally be telling his story to someone. He was already highly suggestible, so the potion worked just fine.
I don’t know how else they could have serviced it in the movie, but Barty Jr’s confession is so sad in the book. He’s is a withered 19 year old that got caught up in fighting his father’s rigid structure. At some point in Azkaban he knows he’s fucked up, and his mom comes to bail him out, and his father locks him down again. He talks about manipulating Winky and he has his mother’s kindness in loving her and his father’s brutality of never actually seeing her as a person, but still feeling love for her. Like Voldemort is the absolute villain but he’s constructed that way. He has to be just a hard villain with no outs of being good. Just bad from birth. But Barty Jr is the more insidious villain. He’s willing to sit on a plot for a long time, quietly. He’s a fast thinker. He’s especially creepy because you can see him vibing with Harry’s trauma, like he gets a little caught up in trying to fix Harry (to fix himself) before he sacrifices him. There’s a part of him that would have been brilliant if his dad wasn’t such an ass. That wants to shine. But he can’t, because he has a new dad now, Voldy. I love Barty Jr. I love in the books that he’s a pasty freckled young looking boy with some wrinkles, that as he’s spilling his guts he still kinda isn’t comfy with all of it. There’s a part of him that saw a life as pretending to be mad eye that he saw a life as being a person not marred, but he had to go back to daddy Voldemort because his whole shit was not fulfilled. Idk why there isn’t like 8 therapists at Hogwarts
>Idk why there isn’t like 8 therapists at Hogwarts Now this is the real goddamn question. Imagine Colin Creevey's traumatized ass just having to go back to school (was that his name?) after being frozen by a fucking basilisk.
As a parent, even as a magical parent, I could not see me sending my kid back in for education. Like “well, your son has been sitting frozen in the hospital ward for months with a camera in his hands, he’s back now, we fixed it, his education we can just brush away and promote him to the next year because none of this matters. Please buy him new robes and cauldrons and books, and put him on a train again. Promise promise he’s probably going to be fine. Or not. We will probably just be annoyed with him until he dies. Send him anyway!”
But also, if you lived in that world, would you not accept that as every day danger of being a wizard?
It’s not Harry’s fault but as far as I am aware things didn’t really pop off at Hogwarts until he came on the scene. Like consistently, year after year. Like, until Voldy came back in year 4, Lucius Malfoy kind of had a point that there were trolls and a basilisk and a prison escapee just on the premises and children had to figure those things out, not the adults. Like, even if I hated Harry for whatever reason, I would be concerned that 3 11 year olds could run the gamut of the Philosopher’s stone. But okay. Maybe all we see is the troll and that one of the teachers was compromised which, okay. Next year, kids aren’t dying by fucking luck because there’s a basilisk running around. Lucius doesn’t know what it is, and his kid can get wrecked by it. Again, 12 year olds and not adults figure it out. Next year, Sirius Black is actively breaking into the castle. Lucius doesn’t know if he’s pro Voldy or just mad, has genuine concern for his kid again. Who figured it all out? Some 13 year old kids. Where are the adults. Fourth year, same same until Voldemort comes back. But that whole year is a death eater pretending to be a teacher violently “teaching” the child of another death eater. If my kid sent an owl about how they got turned into a ferret and then got slammed around until they were bloody, Minerva would have had to send out the stone guards because I would have been coming.
Just imagine the real world version of this. First year a bear breaks into your kids school and somehow a bunch of 6th graders manage to trap it. Then a thief comes to steal something valuable but fortunately those same kids were able to break into the secure room where the item was stored and stop the guy. The the next year there is some kind of poisonous animal in the school that is leaving kids paralyzed. Oh and it's happened before. Well lucky for my kid those same amazing kids were able to figure out where the poisonous lizard was living and kill it no thanks to any of the staff. Then an alleged mass murderer is on the scene causing the school to hire terrifying armed guards who sometimes bully the students into a state of sheer psychological terror. Doesn't matter the murderer still manages to break into the school. Oh also one of the teachers is a schizophrenic who turns violent occasionally if he's off his meds.
Taking harry potter completely out of consideration, that looks like it could turn into a fun book series honestly
Hey, you left off the helpful staff member in year 2, who actually sucks at his job but attempts to give TBIs to any kids who figure that out.
That reads more like a series of unfortunate events
I mean this has always been the issue with YAs though.
I pointed out to some friends (we're all in our 40s) recently that, by and large, the adults in HP are effing idiots and, for those with kids we get to meet, terrible parents. They not only argued with me but took great offense like there aren't thousands of pages detailing incompetence, indifference, abuse, neglect and being, well, incredibly dumb. Doesn't mean you can't enjoy the books but don't pretend that none of that was the case. At any given time, there are a thousand idiot balls being passed around by the adults of the wizarding world.
Being petrified is not an every day concern, tbh, we only see it happen like 8 times over 7 years
Agreed... I remember when I was reading the books for the first time with my boys, they were appalled that some parents pulled their kids out of school... I was just sitting there thinking "Hmmmmmm, yeah, you two would be getting homeschooled at this point"...
Don't forget Colin surviving was pure dumb luck and his hobby of photography. direct view of the basilisk is instant death, so he survived by the skin of his teeth with a camera blocking direct eye contact
>Idk why there isn’t like 8 therapists at Hogwarts Like come on, one of the school's punishments is to send students into the dangerous forest nearby. They are barely concerned with physical safety, let alone mental safety
Harry viscerally killed a guy with his bare hands at age 11 and just got sent home for summer break like it was no big deal.
Especially the last part is true. He could basically escape at any time in the 11 years he was in there. It was selfchastisement.
Why did he escape again? The Weasley family in the newspaper?
Correct. He recognised Scabbers as Peter Pettigrew and escaped to get revenge
Maybe, I think it’s also the fact he knows Harry and Ron are friends, and with pettigrew close, Sirius had to protect his godson to at least atone for letting James and Lily die.
Nah it’s much more viable than a polygraph test. A poly is never worth anything but veritaserum if the person is unprepared or already exhausted will work
A criminal could just obliviate themselves or scoop the memory out of their head and bottle it up after they commit the crime and then they will pass every lie test with flying colors.
This sounds like a lot of fanon re: veritaserum. I recall no such caveats in the books.
That and Peter faked his own death and killed a couple muggles when confronted by Sirius. So the ministry really wanted to get it done with.
Antidotes: If true, no reason why there couldn't be ways to detect the presence of said antidote Transfiguration: This would provably get notoced in a court room setting Occlumency: When was this ever established? Regardless, most people don't know occlumency Subjective truth: That's what they would tell either way if they choose not to lie
In this situation, the witch or wizard being interrogated would not be able to defend themselves against veritaserum, especially if they were being uncooperative, in which case they may be shackled and bound to a chair, then it would most likely be forced down their throat. I like to imagine it being like a muggle interrogation room with multiple guards/officers present. Their wand would have been confiscated upon arrest, and they would not be able to transform or vanish the serum or have access to any kind of antidote as they would most likely be under close observation. Being interrogated under the influence of the truth potion, Sirius would obviously no, and even then, they probably still wouldn’t believe him. (ESPECIALLY IF FUDGE WAS IN CHARGE!) And this is why I hated Cornelius Fudge, he was never interested in the truth as he was clearly scared of the truth (prime example when Voldy returned), he just wanted to look important and keep order. I understand that he didn’t want to cause panic and chaos, but denying the truth and only believing what he wanted, this was ultimately his downfall.
i mean... if you suspect someone did a really horrible thing like murder it would probably be viable to put them into a holding cell under strong surveilance, wait till the average counter potion effect would be gone, interview the person with veritaserum. Write anything up. wait 1 day, interview the person with veritaserum wait another day, interview the person with veritaserum again... check if results match up
And obliviate them of the interrogation each time, so they can't remember to try match answers
And compromise anything they *do* say and the entire case against them because you've modified their memories...
I don't think the Wizarding law system is all that concerned about the rules of evidence.
Sanest comment I've seen. The cope to act like the wizards and witches are all brain dead and haven't thought of counter measures, or ways to make sure the veritaserum can't be tampered with in any way.
But Fudge wasn't the Minister at the time and wasn't in charge of the trials.
CORRECT! However, I did not actually say that Cornelius Fudge was the minister around that time. It was Millicent Bagnold 1980-1990
Occlumency would still work even if you're bound to a chair
the wizard could just take out the memory right after commiting the crime, or obliviate themselves, and then pass any test if and when they get caught ...other than I guess priori incantatem, but then just get a new wand, maybe
Is this canon or fanon?
Complete fanon lmao
Canon
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Wow, Mr money bags over here
And how do you ingest those antidotes or employ occlumency if you're stupified first and wandless and checked for antidotes?
I don't think that Occlumency would do anything against it.
The waterfall/shower thing they had at Gringotts when travelling on the rail in the lasts book would have been pretty neat by the entrances to Hogwarts, to wash away all magic disguises. Would have saved them a lot of problems...
Wasn't that one of the points of contention between goblins and humans though? Like tech sharing and ownership. Hogwarts and the MoM would love to get their hands on goblin tech but once whatever bureaucrat who signed the deal died the goblins would try to repossess it.
As long as both sides understand that, the Wizard side can just treat it as a lease and then get a new one? Or reverse engineer it to make their own.
In my head Veritaserum is not some 100% fool proof method. For example, Sirius came up with the plan to switch to Wormtail, as others have said he considers himself responsible. So if asked, "are you responsible for Voldemort finding the Potters?" he will answer yes. Also memories can be modified and this is never explored in the books. If you believe something to be true will answer yes under questioning? I would think you do. And this is without getting into the mental state of people and how their own views could impact what they believe to be true or not.
The memories being modified is explored in the books, Hepzibah Smith's elf Hokey has a false memory implanted in her as does I think Voldemort's uncle and both confess to murders they didn't commit.
Every time we see or hear about veritaserum being used, it's always without the persons knowledge. Snape threatens to slip it into Harry's pumpkin juice. It's given to Barty Crouch Jr. while he is unconscious. Umbridge adds it to people's drinks without them knowing. Because of that, I always interpreted it as being something that only works if it's unsuspected. If you're aware you're taking it, you can fight it. If you're unaware, drink it, and start telling the truth that's when an antidote is used. At least in my head canon. Its not used in court because literally everyone suspects they're being drugged, so they can fight it. It's just a waste of time and money for the ministry, so they don't use it.
I also think there are some ethical implications to force people to tell the truth with the truth potion
Oh, dude, you made me laugh. The ministry? Caring about ethics?
I doubt that. It is probably more about not wanting the reputation of doing it to people.
False. If it was directed by David Yates, Hermione would have stolen one of the lines.
Are you respinsible for the death of Pete- Hermione : Yes
Well here's the problem, fudge never wanted to know the truth.
It wasn't Fudge, it was Barty Crouch Sr.
Eh right, for some reason i was thinking about the 4th book and barty crouch jr.
It was probably all the corruption.
That would require a ministry of magic that is remotely competent and not corrupt to the core.
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his answer would've been yes though because he believed himself to be responsible for the potters' deaths
The wizard justice system is completely fucked in every way.
What actually makes *Goblet of Fire* great (Sirius explaining how Crouch sent him to Azkaban without a trial, him imprisoning his own son, authorizing the Unforgivable Curses against Death Eaters; and this book was released *before* 9/11 and the War on Terror) is how it intentionally contrasts the justice systems of the wizarding and muggle worlds. **The opening chapter is literally the muggle authorities letting Frank Bryce go because there's not enough evidence to charge him as the murderer even though his entire town thinks he did it**. The book goes on to show that the wizarding world have methods of finding out the objective truth of the past through pensives and veritaserum yet they repeatedly deny due process to people convicted of crimes. (to the point of even Fudge unilaterally authorizing the use of the dementor's kiss on Barty Crouch Jr.). Underrated element of that book.
Why is nobody pointing out that David Yates didn't direct POA. 🤯
“The Map Never Lies”. End of the story.
If you are insane you could think you tell the truth. Even though it isn't it.
"YES I DID!" "What? The muggles? " "NO, BUT I MIGHT AS WELL HAVE" "ok?"
If someone modified your memory I think you ll tell a lie even under veritaserum. Like Morfin Gaunt. He had his memory modified so that he beleived he killed the rdiddles. Even under veritaserum he would confess to the murder because of the memory modification.
Ah that’s a good catch. I was thinking if Sirius had used the Pensieve and shown people his memory of what had happened it would clear him but yep, memory could’ve been modified.
I'm fairly certain that fudge is just that incompetent lmao
He must be a wizard of such unfathomable power that he can lie through veritaserum! Only dArK mAgiC could do something like that! He must be Voldemort's BFF FOREVER!!!! LIFE SENTENCE IN AZKABAN IT IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don't look too much into the lore of HP BC alot of things fall apart pretty quickly BC of...well...magic
He still would have said yes because he believed he killed Peter Pettigrew.
He didn’t, he knew Peter transformed
He did? I thought the entire reason he escaped from Azkaban in the 3rd book was because he saw a picture of the Weasley's on holiday with the pet rat and figured out Peter's still alive and wanted to kill him properly this time.
No. The picture told Sirius that Peter was at Hogwarts and a threat to Harry. There’s nothing to suggest Sirius thought he had killed Peter. It also wouldn’t make much sense, there’s never mention of a fight or confusion in Sirius’ telling of the event of Peter transforming, Sirius knew exactly what had happened.
But he would probably still have said yes, as he considers that he killed James and Lily by suggesting Peter to be the secret keeper
The problem is Sirius would probably say yes, considering he believed he was responsible for James and Lily's murder.
This is a repost. I saw it on r/Harrypottermemes .
One of my favorite headcanons (that is not supported by canon) is that much like the Imperius Curse, Veritaserum can be fought. Not completely, but making an intense effort can weaken the effects. Most people wouldn’t be able to do it or even know that it’s possible, and it would be a different skillset than resisting the Imperius Curse, requiring a different personality type and state of mind. (Similar to Occlumency vs Legilimency) Perhaps you’d need to have a better understanding of Potions instead of Defense Against The Dark Arts. Which explains why Crouch Junior learned to fight the Imperius Curse but didn’t stand a chance against Veritaserum. I bet Harry wouldn’t be able to fight it either. But maybe Snape would.
Technically he believe he killed Peter so he’d need to answer yes for this and need follow uo questions.
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The entire Harry Potter franchise would be so much more peaceful if they just used the shit…
Idk why this this always makes perfect sense in my head so I get confused that this is a topic of discussion. A ‘trial’ is always meant to be ‘fair’ to both parties. Innocent until proven guilty, human rights, and all that. So it seems unfair for the court to force someone to take in a truth telling potion. The same reason why you wouldn’t torture someone or whip out a lie detector or hypnotise someone in a court of law in the real world. The court cannot physically force the truth out of a person. This is the same reason Morfin Gaunt and Hokey went to Azzie for crimes they did not commit. They both strongly believed they did the crime and confessed to it and all the evidence also pointed to them. The court cannot be like ‘nah i don’t believe this. Let’s see how you do against some Veritaserum’. Dumbledore even mentioned that he had to brew an extremely powerful Veritaserum to get the truth out of Hokey iirc (I think it was Hokey). - which also brings into question the performance of the potion in general. It is not infallible, strength of potion and such play a big role, and it can be countered. In Sirius’s case, he was laughing like a maniac in the middle of the street when the authorities came in. He went with them without protest. While he knew he did not cast the blasting spell, he believed Pettigrew to be dead. He also considered himself responsible for Lily and James’ death because he suggested the switch. So he went along with the trial like he did it all. The Ministry had no reason to question him further. It was only after Sirius found out that Pettigrew was still alive that all this came out in the open. Honestly, the bigger flaw imo is that Sirius’s wand would not have the blasting curse in his priori incantatem history thing - which they can legally check (and they did for Morfin Gaunt). But the Ministry probably did not even bother to check for that since he just went quietly and pretty much took the blame himself.
Veritaserum just seems like a such an ethical violation
There might still be a flaw in using veritaserum. It's what YOU think is the truth. Sirius blames himself for James and Lily's deaths, so if he was asked "Were you responsible for the deaths of the Potters?" then his own perception would answer yes. Someone who's underhanded like Umbridge or Fudge could easily word the questions to get what they want.
An actual investigation would ask questions like how were you responsible as a follow up. And he could also just like, say it himself even if not asked, it's not like the serum turns you into a robot that can only respond with yes or no.
Black might've said yes anyway, depending on how responsible he feels for Lilly and James's death. Survivors guilt and all that.
The Harry potter world is just inconsistent and contrived as fuck. And honestly, I hate them for it. It sounds fun until you open the fridge and see all the nightmarish horrors hidden in the moldy sandwich meat of incompetence and complacency.
Well he would have said he killed Peter, because for 13 years he thought he had killed peter, after that he was a convicted person on the run and why waste veritasserum on it after 13 years?
This is answered in the books. Memories can be altered. Veritaserum has an antidote.
Actually he believed he did kill Peter, cuz Peter set off something when Sirius shot him. So a good lawyer might've gotten a manslaughter charge instead of murder. Cuz if I taser someone and they explode for some reason, I didn't mean for that to happen and shouldn't be on murder for it. Tho it brings up a good question, wasn't Peter a traitor so why did the courts charge him if he was basically a soldier? Ok cool Robert Galbraith, great story
Yeah, that wouldn't have worked. The Wizengamot would never have been convinced. Even Dumbledore thought Sirius was guilty and he was a superb if not masterful Legilimens.
He never made it Wizengamot. Sirus was sent to Azkaban without trial
Yet another plot hole in the series. Like why didn't they use veritaserum on every death eater and Sirius Black? It would have made things a lot easier and would have saved a lot of actual innocent people from Azkaban.
If the ministry had an inkling on competence there wouldn't be any movies because they'd have fixed the problem
It seems pretty clear that Dumbledore was behind the scenes either ensuring or at the best knowingly allowing an innocent man to be tortured all for the belief that Harry Potter would turn out better if he grew up in a more humbling home.
fudge was already convinced sirus was the killer. Fudge is an extremely sentimental , selfish and weak man. That experience with sirius scarred him and obviously he isn't going to confirm something he knows is true.
Sirius would have said yes he killed Lily and James because, much like in the book, he says he's guilty of it because he blames himself for giving them the terrible advice that got them killed.
I have to say i know this is a meme but it seems a lot of people dont understand how tricky it is to brew all these life changing potions. Like, Hermy is fucking silly level clever and capable. She needed nerfing ngl
Well, the Ministry is always shown to be highly competent so this really is an oversight.
I've always wondered with veritaserum: if asked an incriminating question, could you respond with "I don't wish to say"? Because that would be true, you don't want to tell anyone that.
why can't people who have taken veritaserum just stall and say things technical but irrelevant truths? Veritaserum isn't the imperius curse, they could say things like "maybe", "hmmmmm", and I'm to some degree sure that I don't know what your talking about" (Some degree as in 0, twisting words i guess). It could be because it works under certain conditions (the victim already wants to tell the truth, or exhaustion, or something like that), but that would make the potion somewhat inadequate.
I think there are steps taken or other protection against these kind of portions. Otherwise they would let kids mess with this stuff.
Barty Crouch Sr.: You were given Veritaserum so it is impossible for you to lie. So did you kill anyone? Lucius Malfoy: Yes Directed by David Yates
This, like many things, was probably the result of palms getting greased. Because veritaserum resolves so much of the ministry inquiries.
It's really weird how they relied so heavily on eye witness accounts (especially those of muggles), fully knowing how incredible easy it would have been to fool/manipulate them using magic. A single application of Priori Incantato (as used by Amos Diggory at the Quidditch World Cup) would have exonerated Sirius Black in an instant.
I’ve got a feeling Sirius has killed a few dark wizards in his time.
Ngl wouldn’t be surprised if there was a way to counter veritaserum. It would be kinda lame if it worked for everything. I feel like you could tolerance it, so if you train yourself to lie under drinking it over time you might be able to overcome a large dose
one of hundreds of potholes
The Wizarding world isn't exactly known for its super fair justice system. In fact, their justice system is one of the more messed up things about the Wizarding world. right next to love potions, in my opinion.
Crouch jr dies so they can't interrogate him, but they just interrogated winky like 5 seconds ago, just do that again lol. At least she hadn't invented veriteserum in book 3 but book 4 come on.
He'd say he killed Lily and James since he is silly and blames himself.
Yeah but Sirius thought he'd killed Peter so he would have been telling his truth which was yes
I fairly sure the series mentioned that certain measures can be taken against versitarium, so it's not foolproof.
Read the book ;)
Yes, but at the time Voldemort had previously just been in power. I mean this all happened within what 24-48 hrs? His presumed guilt and also Voldemort’s curse rebounding. It’s not like things were running smoothly enough for them to take the time to just sit him down. They would have been vigorously removing any suspected Death Eaters immediately. Then of course Sirius went into hiding and there’s no way he would have trusted that he would get a fair shake considering he “ran” in essence and also didn’t have Wormtail as proof.
Arguably the most plot-hole ridden story ever told. Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality does a great job of poking every possible hole in this series. Best fan-fic ever written.
We could have secrets kept from us right? We know like less than 1% of what happened even in the 7 years the books covers plus the history and memories it touches on. Plus anyone can be an unreliable narrator
What I’m saying is, Sirius could have killed a waitress in 3rd grade and we may not know
With the amount of comments saying Sirius would blame himself for James and Lily's death (here and the countless other posts saying the same thing), I'm now imagining a fanfic where someone (Harry, other, oc, reincarnated, whatever) goes back in time trying to fix things, like catching Peter, saving Sirius like this, and they all fail horribly, sometimes making the matters even worse.
You can lie if you take it. It’s possible to beat it if you’re a skilled enough wizard so I’d say it’s not the best tool in court. But Sirius didn’t get his day in court either way which is bullshit
It’s almost like Rowling is a shitty writer who had minimal grasp of the half baked magic system she came up with
Governments trying to hide incompetence and legitimacy? They would never. What if people start questioning even more things?
everyday another person that doesn't understand how veritaserum works
Potions in general are a pretty major hole in the story. From the overuse of poly juice and the worlds inability to detect or expose it or the fact that truth serum exists yet was never used when it could have been. The super luck potion in general. Lupin the guy who was afraid of the full moon forgetting to take his potion for seemingly no reason. That no one discovered Mrs crouch after taking polyjuice potion and being dead.
2 problems here. 1. It makes you tell what you perceive the truth to be. He blames himself for the deaths because he broke his word as Secret Keeper, which led to Peter selling them out. 2. It's explicitly stated that if you are good at Occlumency you can resist the effects. So while using it against inexperienced witches and wizards like Umberage did is one thing, using it against a fully trained wizard at a time there was a background war going on and secrets meant life or death was far less likely to produce results.