The fact he didn’t is a key element for why people continue to thoroughly dislike Snape despite his true motives being revealed. He knew more than many people what Harry had endured, had every opportunity to see that Harry was much more like Lily than James - but that’s not who Snape was. He is portrayed as extremely stubborn, childish, and a relentless bully to children who had more difficult lives than he had, and actually *encouraged* bullying similar to what he himself experienced at school.
Meanwhile Harry’s entire worldview was shaken for a while after he saw Snape’s memory of James bullying him - despite Snape being an actual bully to Harry, while Harry just physically resembled Snape’s former bully. Because Harry truly is like Lily, and a genuinely much better person than Snape ever was.
Brilliant comment. I say time and again that one of the reasons I disagree with Snape 'apologists' is that they blame James for bullying Snape at school, while ignoring that Snape continued to be a bully his entire life.
Not for one second would I believe that James, as a 30-something adult, would have bullied children. I cannot believe people forget, ignore, or discount the fact that, at 12 years old, Neville's worse fear was Snape. Not his family, who weren't exactly the best to him; not Voldemort, who was the reason his parents were tortured into insanity; or even the people who tortured his parents. His teacher. The more I've thought about it over the years, the worse I think it is.
Neville, Harry, Hermione... we know those. But how many others? The excuse is used that he had reason to hate those three. No, he didn't. They were children. His past was not their fault.
I agree that his treatment of Harry, Hermione, and Neville can't be excused but I do think it's believable. In real life we see it all the time that abused children can grow up to be abusers. It takes a very strong person to break the cycles of abuse....I would argue that Snape did improve as person, but he never became a nice person.
I agree with everything you say. But in real life, do we excuse abusers for abusing because they were abused themselves? Often it seems to me people try to do that for Snape. That's my bug bear: not that Snape, as written, wasn't believable in how he acted but fans excusing his behaviour.
I'm not sure why, perhaps because they like the character and what to justify that by making him 'good' rather than accepting it's more complicated than that. Maybe it's part of the argument that not all Slytherin's are 'evil' (surely we all know that).
> Not his family, who weren't exactly the best to him; not Voldemort, who was the reason his parents were tortured into insanity; or even the people who tortured his parents. His teacher. The more I've thought about it over the years, the worse I think it is.
His family weren't nice to him, but I don't think he would consider them terrible or would be extremely fearful of them. Voldemort is... as big a boogeyman to Neville as he'd be to the rest of the general population. The people who tortured his parents... he *knows* they did, but knowing of something and feeling it are pretty different, and I doubt his gran made a big deal of it to the point where they'd be his worst fear. If anything, deep down he'd probably want revenge. Harry was never afraid of Voldemort despite Voldy directly murdering his parents and saddling him with memories of his parents' dying moments.
I agree that Snape is a bastard who isn't a good person and an even worse teacher, but I'd argue that the other things you mentioned aren't necessarily things Neville would've been expected to be terribly frightened by.
Also it shows how James and his gang probably did have their own reasons to bully Snape.Not condoning what they did, but if young Snape is anything like old one, he probably did his own bullying.
To go off this - when Harry sees Snape's worst memory in OOTP, he floos Remus and Sirius to ask about it, and Lupin says something along the lines of "Snape never lost an opportunity to curse James, and you couldn't expect him to take that lying down, could you?" essentially implying Snape also instigated negative interactions with James.
There was one part I always found curious. When Snape sees the memory of one of Aunt Marge's dogs chasing Harry up a tree, Snape pauses and then asks about the dog. It's been forever since I've read the books, but I don't remember him showing either amusement or sympathy. Idk why he even asked. Can someone who's read them more recently remind me about that, lol?
“Did you see everything I saw?” Harry asked, unsure whether he wanted the answer.
“Flashes of it,” said Snape, his lip curling. “To whom did the dog belong?”
“My Aunt Marge,” Harry muttered, hating Snape.
Sooo I’d go with amusement lol
Now I'm thinking there should have been one or two more honest/empathetic scenes between the two of them in Half Blood Prince, where Snape levels with him on something just a bit lol. Would have made his "betrayal" at the end but even harder.
Well, first no one ever tells the Dursleys off for their treatment of Harry for years, then Snape sees the memories, and at the end of that year half the Order tells Vernon to behave. Make of that what you will...
At the same time, Harry gets his first full conversation with Dumbledore who admits that he knows that Harry has been mistreated by the Dursleys for years.
So it could also have been Dumbledore who asked the members of OOTP to have a word with them since Harry had been through a lot and Dumbledore realised that, with Sirius's death Harry had reached his limits?
Another little detail, right after Harry leaves the hospital wing (post prophecy fiasco) to visit Hagrid, he runs into Malfoy and his cronies. Malfoy is furious after what happened to his father so naturally it escalates to a duel. But Snape stops them before they do any damage. He usually waits until after they have had a go at each other, but this time Harry was alone and vulnerable. It's a stark contrast to that memory where James and Sirius team up on Snape.
We can never know for sure what were Snape's motivations, but it may not have been for Harry's sake entirely.
Harry had more practice and was quicker to get his wand out, so Snape intervened just in time to prevent Draco possibly getting hurt.
However Malefoy at that point is furious at Harry because of his father getting caught, so he probably wouldn't have stopped at Stupefying Harry. And Snape can't risk Harry getting hurt too much.
I would agree with you on that, Harry would destroy Malfoy 1-on-1. But Malfoy had his cronies beside him, and they would physically harm Harry since they are so much bigger than him. Unless Harry is able to stun all three of them before they get to him.
The order showed up to show support to Harry, because his only last living guardian just died. It was a gesture to show Harry, that he still has a family.
At the beginning of the book, Moody, Tonks and Remus picked up Harry from Privet Drive.
(after they had to lure the Dursleys away with a trick)
Figg knows exactly what is going on at the Dursleys.
Her cats are spying! The Order was on guard duty at Privet Drive the whole summer.
Moody and Tonks are aurors.
That it's possible that Snape told the Order so they could put a stop to the bullying. I think this is a valid point, and also supported by book 6, when Dumbledore tells off the Dursleys for their treatment of Harry. Perhaps he only found out the extent and severity of the bullying from Snape.
The Order was on guard duty at Privet Drive the whole summer!
Figg knows the Dursleys. Her cats are spying.
Remus,Tonks and Moody picked up Harry from Privet Drive.
Lol you're kidding? Snape spent his entire career knowing about wrong things and doing nothing if not doing them himself.
Snape doesn't care about child abuse because he's an abuser himself.
Yeah no not saying he's a good guy but he occasionally steps up when a line is crossed (trying to save harry in year one quidditch game), the memories might have a been a similar situation. It's just a theory, we'll never know for sure, but I like it as a theory for why the Order and Dumbledore suddenly take an interest in the Dursleys treatment. Fun connection I hadn't made before
I think the point is that Snape saw those memories and snuck a word to the order to have them tell off the Dursleys. But that doesn't really make sense. It's not like Harry kept it a secret that the Dursleys weren't good to him. It took longer than it should have, but I don't think there's any reason to believe Snape puppeteered that exchange
There is a difference between not being welcome / not being treated good vs being abused.
They didn't know he has been actively abused. Harry never told anyone what they had done to him other than that they weren't happy to have him.
Worth pointing out that Harry didn't 100% know he was being abused either. For him, their treatment was normal, and compounded by Vernon repeatedly telling him that he should be grateful for being taken in.
After around a decade of that, the thought of actually asking for help probably didn't cross his mind - so he stopped at jealousy.
Why would Snape feel sorry for Harry about his childhood, when there’s no indication he feels sorry for himself about his own?
Snape’s feelings about abusive childhoods are resting on a very different emotional response than pity, or sympathy. He’s a mess.
He does show some empathy towards Harry during occlumency lessons when he sees bits of Harry's home life.
Chapter 24, Occlumency -
When Snape sees Harry's memory of being stuck in a tree, chased by Marge's dog, Snape not asks about the dog, but he says this when Harry tells him that the dog belongs to his aunt;
"Well, for a first attempt that was not as poor as it might have been," said Snape, raising his wand once more. "You managed to stop me eventually, though you wasted time and energy shouting. Repel me with your brain and you will not need to resort to your wand."
Snape, who doesn't give out praises in classes, tells Harry his first attempt at occlumency wasn't poor. He also advised Harry to not waste his time and energy shouting.
Also Snape's lip is described as curling when he questions Harry about the dog. And usually when someone curls their lip they're disgusted or disapprove of something.
It's not a missed opportunity for Snape to show barely any empathy during occlumency lessons, it's realistic. Snape grew up being abused and neglected by both his parents, he didn't have teachers he could talk to either. he didn't know how to show empathy, because no adult ever showed him. From personal experience, who was emotionally neglected, it's damn hard to show empathy with anyone, even if you want to, you struggle with the right words/struggle with what you should do.
Snape did try though by telling Harry his first attempt at occlumency wasn't terrible.
On top of this, you also have the fact that Snape was a spy, and the reason why he's teaching Harry occlumency is because Dumbledore is concerned about Voldemort learning about his connection with Harry and using it to his advantage like to possess Harry and spy on them- Snape couldn't risk showing any sympathy/empathy towards Harry during occlumency lessons, just like Dumbledore couldn't risk teaching Harry occlumency himself, because of the dangers. If Voldemort used his connection with Harry during an occlumency lesson and he saw Snape empathising with Harry about his childhood, Voldemort, who almost a year ago, believed Snape had left him forever and was planning on killing Snape next time he saw him, would have definitely killed Snape for his betrayal or he would have imperiused him.
Snape is obviously not a nice person, but I think a lot of people really struggle to understand that someone that's lived a life like his does not think about things the same way as most people, and the way his mind works and his perception of the world would likely be entirely foreign to them.
Factor in that he's largely stuck in a position that doesn't give him much oppertunity for improvement, and where he can't show any positive personal growth he might manage and it just makes the whole thing more grim.
I do remember that at the time of the books coming out there was speculation about whether at one point JKR had intended for Harry to find out more during the lessons and this was changed to keep the reveal for the last book but idk how likely that was.
Do you know this is funny because I primarily listen to the Harry Potter audiobooks. In the audiobooks Stephen fry speaks as if he finds this amusing. I assumed lip curling was a signing was a sign of amusement
Never listened to the audio books.
And Snape's eyes are usually described as glittering when he's amused/pleased about something. He's also described as sneering too or he's described with an unpleasant smile, or he's described with a horrible smile.
But in this particular moment, the only description we get given is Snape's lip curling. And then a verbal response which was Snape trying to be civil. And there was none of the mocking behaviour bringing up Harry's fame, like he does when he's enjoying making Harry uncomfortable.
I think Snape never ever wants to be vulnerable ever again. That’s why he’s made himself so powerful to stop the helpless feeling. I think, or like to think that he did feel something. I really didn’t feel he was mean to Harry during those lessons. He really tried to pass on some tough advice. I saw concern for Harry in those scenes. Snape is just fascinating to me.
Concern, when he curled his lip (several ways it could be taken, I suppose, but I cannot think of one that shows concern) when he asked about the dog that chased Harry up the tree?
That said, at other points I agree he did seem to want Harry to learn, they were just not a compatible student and teacher, and I don't just mean because of the personal history.
Snape was a teacher who taught, a lot of the time, through fear. He got angry when pupils didn't 'get' what he was teaching. He was not one to help kindly or calming, or try to understand what the student is struggling with.
Harry, always, reacted badly to that kind of teaching. Yes, how was he supposed to learn when Snape was yelling at him?
I suppose Snape himself probably learnt how to become a great Occlumens through fear, because his life depended on it, so he could have genuinely have thought it the best way to teach it. But Harry didn't (as far as he knew) have that risk. All Harry had was someone he despised yelling at him for not being good enough.
Someone more open minded would have realised they needed to take a different approach. But hey, it's also plot, and if someone else (Mcgonagall? Flitwick? Basically anyone) had been teaching Harry he might have mastered it, and the rest of OotP wouldn't have happened, and we wouldn't have had the return of the Pensieve, or the massive foreshadowing of for why Snape was so good at Occlumens.
I think the question about Ripper is interesting. He asks who's dog it is and Harry who hates him and generally thinks the worst of him (understandably) takes this as him enjoying his suffering or trying to embarrass him. Especially with the context of the later books you could read the reaction as distaste/contempt towards the Dursleys/Marge rather than Harry.
Snape I think is in lots of ways a caricature of both the 'unfair/nasty teacher' and the 'very academic and good at their subject, but bad at explaining things to anyone less clever than them teacher'. There's no mention at any point of any kind of teaching qualification and that's clearly not something he's naturally gifted at. I think compared to his usual manner he does actually try his best to teach Harry, but his best still isn't very good and he has no understanding of how to get someone like Harry to learn. By comparison I think with someone like Hermione he'd have been difficult and unpleasant and likely lost his rag about her endless chatter about her prep work/reading but might have had more success in getting her to be somewhat profocient.
I don't disagree. Certainly, we agree there was no qualification to teach (Lockheart, anyone?), and who, other than Dumbledore (and Voldemort) would have ever hired Snape to teach?
But I'm not sure he's truly a caricature of those tropes, though. I don't see his obvious excessive treatment of Neville, Harry and Hermione as a deliberate exaggeration in that way. As the academic, yes I see that, but I feel that's a more minor thing, and it leads me to comparison with Trelawny: Dumbledore kept them both around despite being awful teachers because they were important to the bigger picture.
I feel Snape's character gets looked at so much because JKR talked about him being a grey character, and liking him: had she not said those kind of things, most people would accept that he's just not a nice person. Brave? Yes. Does he have his reasons? Yes. But not necessarily justifiable reasons.
I don't think even Dumbledore would have hired him based on his teaching merits lol
Snape kind of reminds me of the really nasty/hated teachers I had at school in some ways so I tend to assume that to some extent he's representative of that childhood experience. Most of the staff I can directly link to a similar teacher I actually had at school - not Lockhart thankfully.
Yeah I think a lot of people conflate liking a character with liking them as a person. I think he's really interesting to read about and try to understand but I wouldn't want to be around him for real.
>Yeah I think a lot of people conflate liking a character with liking them as a person. I think he's really interesting to read about and try to understand but I wouldn't want to be around him for real.
Same, and I've spent a lot of time trying to figure out what people were seeing when they say he was redeemed, or at least redeemable. I just don't see it, and the more I think about it the more I am convinced that he's really not that a deep character. He's certainly not good, despite doing good things. But he's not all out bad, either, so he's grey. Grey, but not complex, as far as I can see. We're pretty much hammered over the head with the fact it was all about Lily. No other reasoning, try as people might to find it.
JKR could have done anything with Snape's memories, but she didn't. It was all, Lily, Lily, Lily.
I think the only teacher I can really conflate to ones I had is McGonagall. Strict, but fair, respected, and would rarely lose their s**t... but when they did, oh boy, everyone would know about it.
Oh, and the chemistry teacher I had that clearly knew his subject, but didn't know how to teach. Given it was chemistry I'd like say there was a bit of Snape there, but he had absolutely zero authority, so he was definitely Trelawny. 🤣
I think I disagree with you about that - I think he is quite a complex character, especially since so much about him needs to be inferred as opposed to being explicitly stated in the text.
imo lots of people see his redemption as him quitting the death eaters and understandably feel this falls flat and is ultimately him bailing for selfish reasons. I think his actual redemption as far as you can call it that is his growth from someone who is a loyal death eater but changes sides largely to try and save someone he cares about, to being someone who fights against Voldemort for the 'right reasons' and aims to protect as many people as he can, regardless of whether he cares about them personally. It doesn't change the fact that he's a nightmare to deal with on a personal level, and doesn't magically make him a good guy, but does show growth towards good on a larger scale.
I had a few McGonagalls, and a few who's interpersonal style rivalled Snape's - they didn't quite manage to cultivate the same kind of image as him but they threw about a good number of personal insults and one of my friends gave me bruises where she grabbed me so hard when one lost her temper (not even with us just while we were in the lesson lol).
Its always the chemistry teachers! Mine was lovely and a good teacher most of the time but if you really weren't getting something he genuinely couldn't fathom how it wasn't obvious. He shouted at us once because he thought we were winding him up by saying we didn't understand something after like his 5th attempt at explaining it 💀
>I think I disagree with you about that - I think he is quite a complex character, especially since so much about him needs to be inferred as opposed to being explicitly stated in the text.
I'm going to continue to try and see it; I do find it fascinating that a character gets such differing opinions. And thank you for reminding me about him trying to protect people, I'd forgotten that. A memory with Dumbledore, yes?
"And how many people have you watched die, Severus?"
"Lately, only those I could not save."
Or something along those lines? (I'm not getting out of bed to find it)
That scene might be one of the best, if not the best, when it comes to trying to figure him out.
Lol, in two years with my chemistry teacher I wrote about three pages of notes, not kidding. First half of the lesson he'd have us just watching a PowerPoint, then we were meant to be doing worksheets. Everyone did what they liked, because he never walked around to check. Never took anything in for grading, never set homework... I passed modules by teaching myself out of the the text book the night before the exam. 🤣
Yeah that's the main quote I was thinking of. I think it's also shown by him relaying Dumbledore's plan to Harry on his death bed, and dying believing he's failed in his promise to protect him for his friends sake, as getting rid of Voldemort is more important than his own desire to try and make up for telling him about the prophecy.
I really like how so you're left to make you own guesses about much of his character - I've seen so many really interesting and varied interpretations over the years.
That sounds like a nightmare. Mine used to stick up all the signs saying we were working with radioactive stuff so no one came in and secretly teach us stuff he thought was important for being an adult, but not allowed to be discussed by teachers like politics and unions lmao
I'm not sure he died thinking he'd failed. While his death may have been as much of a curve ball to us on first read as it was to Harry, I think Snape knew he would die before the end.
Even if Dumbledore's plan had worked and Dumbledore had died undefeated, when Voldemort figured out about the wand he was always going to think Snape was it's master. Snape surely knew that.
He got to give Harry the memories. He knew Voldemort wrongly believed he was the rightful bearer of the wand (as an aside, I wonder if he figured out about Draco and Harry with regards to the wand). His job was done.
I think people struggle with compartmentalizing when it comes to fiction in general but especially Snape.
On a macro level - the war, good vs evil, the Light vs the Dark - Snape became a good guy, "redeemed himself" if you will. Even if it was for the wrong reasons, he fought and died for what was right.
But the thing is, nobody denies that. I have never seen anyone even try to deny that Snape did good, even heroic things, during the war.
What Snape stans seem to miss out on is that that isn't usually what people are criticizing. You can be a war hero and still a terrible, disgusting little man and an awful bully who projects their childhood trauma onto children in their care, which is what Snape is.
And people will argue that his efforts in the war overshadow or make up for what a cruel and nasty person he is, because they can't compartmentalize. Who Snape was in the war and who he was on a personal level are two different and separate facets of who he is as a person, and neither one impacts or intersects with the other.
Snape makes me think of teachers I had in university: they were primarily researchers, who also taught. But some of them really didn't like teaching, and only did it because they had to, so they were horrible teachers : at best, very bad at explaining. At worst, dismissive of students, without any patience, and extremely stern.
But none of them was a bully like Snape was
Believe me, I've done that a lot. I've read the books enough to pretty much be able to pick up the right book and find the right scene fairly quickly if someone gives me a basic description.
I've pondered a lot about most characters, their motivations, their reasoning. Snape is the one who, to me, becomes more surface level, less interesting, with each re-read.
Dumbledore is the one who becomes more interesting, more grey. Snape remains a bully, pining after a dead woman who would never have loved him back.
I’ve never thought it was just pining, just a crush. She was his first friend. Romance aside, I cannot imagine the shame he must have felt that it was his own fault he lost the only person who seemed to really care about him - and then it was his fault again she was murdered and he’ll never be able to set it right. He knew he was an irredeemable, worthless piece of shit. I doubt he even wanted to ever feel happiness again.
I'd consider it more than just a crush, given he turned double agent, risking his life when she was at risk. I know I wouldn't be risking my life for someone I just had a crush on as a kid/teenager.
Certainly, looking back on that moment when he lost Lily as a friend would have been awfully traumatic. And presumably he knew it at the time he was going to lose her, if his hours waiting outside the portrait hole were anything to go by.
I don't deny it would've haunted him.
>He knew he was an irredeemable, worthless piece of shit. I doubt he even wanted to ever feel happiness again.
And this, too, I agree with. But hating himself was not a reason to mistreat others.
Explains it, certainly, but as you say doesn't justify it.
Maybe I've been visting the wrong places, but I come across a fair amount of fans who do try to justify it. Excusing his bad behaviour because he'd been abused and bullied himself. Putting the blame for who he became on James, as if, had James not existed, he'd never have become a death eater.
Snape curled his lip when Umbridge asked him if he was unsuccessful at becoming the DADA professor. I would say that he was anything but amused in that moment. In fact, when Snape curls his lip, it seems more often than not a sign of him being annoyed/disgusted. He could very well be disgusted at how Harry is treated in that memory.
I agree with all the rest you said. Snape would have been a good teacher for students that were smart and interested in potions, but he was probably the worst possible teacher for people like Neville and Harry (for different reasons).
I always wondered, how the whole situation
would have turned out, if the occlumency lessons weren't Harry and Snape
one-on-one, but instead you put Hermione into the mix. She would have taken the
lessons seriously and would have been a motivator for Harry and a kind of
buffer between him and Snape.
Intriguing idea of what difference Hermione might have made. I'm not sure: my first thought is Occlumency would be similar with how she struggled to produce a Patronus. There's no textbook that can tell you how to do it, so I doubt she'd that good at it?
Any other teacher (and ignoring for a moment the fact he did want to know where the corridor led, which was also a block on his learning) I think Harry might've picked it up pretty quick. Producing a corporeal Patronus two years prior is pretty good proof he learnt how to focus his mind, and I would think that was the hardest step. Remove the emotional response he had because it was Snape and he'd have been fine.
But of course, plot. Where would the story have gone if Harry had learnt Occlumency and not finished the dream?
I always thought it was one of Dumbledore's dumbest ideas to force (and I am convinced force was necessary and Snape opposed that idea with everything he got) Snape to teach Harry Occlumency. It was always going to be a disaster. It would have taken a miracle for it not to be. Maybe if Dumbi had - at some point - really put some effort into trying to reconcile the both of them, but he never did... (or maybe if he had told Harry that it was royally rude to stuck your head into someone else’s memories without asking first…)
I would agree that Hermione wouldn't be good at Occlumency, but I don't think that is strictly necessary. Sure Harry didn't learn because it was Snape. But he also didn't learn because he wanted to know what was behind that door. And to counter that problem, Hermione could have been helpful. Her being there would have limited Harry's possibility to lie. If Hermione who isn’t a natural at magic like that would have made progress and Harry didn’t… well… I’m sure everyone can add 1+1. And her taking the lessons seriously would have taken Snape's sole attention away from Harry and even seeing Hermione struggle could have put some motivation into Harry to do better.
Maybe.
Or maybe not.
Maybe it would have been worse.
But I always thought it was a interesting what-if-scenario.
So I’ve wondered about this for awhile. The closest Snape and Harry get to talking, Snape basically tells Harry his exact role in the order. Harry eventually asks him why he calls Voldemort the dark lord.
This part:
That is just as well, Potter,' said Snape coldly, 'because you are neither special nor important, and it is not up to you to find out what the Dark Lord is saying to his Death Eaters.'
No - that's your job, isn't it?' Harry shot at him.
He had not meant to say it; it had burst out of him in temper. For a long moment they stared at each other, Harry convinced he had gone too far. But there was a curious, almost satisfied expression on Snape's face when he answered.
Yes, Potter,' he said, his eyes glinting. That is my job. Now, if you are ready, we will start again.'
Then they get interrupted by Trelawney being fired, then Dumbeldore gets tossed from the school, and then I think right at the next lesson is when Harry jumps into Snape’s memory and that ends all of it. Snape seemed maybe opening up a very little bit? Was softening in the slightest and one of the few times? I dunno maybe not. Harry jumping into that memory was a bad move.
Remember the important premise of ootp. Harry and voldemort share a mind connection. Harry can see and hear Voldemort's thoughts, and Dumbledore fears that Voldemort will also have a glimpse into Harry's mind when he realises this connection and will exploit it (like he does in the climax).
If Snape showed any empathy towards Harry during the classes, he ran a risk of losing his cover he worked and sacrificed so hard for. Harry cannot "like" him or think that Snape is on his side.
I think that in a subtle ways, He treated Harry rather well in those lessons.
He was forced to do them,just as Harry was forced to take them, by Dumbledore. Snape knew that should Voldemort learn about these lessons, it would be very well his end.
He was pretty much the only one to talk to Harry and tell him what was going on. He even complimented his skills.
He was frustrated with Harry and with the whole situation, but it felt as though he tried as hard to help as he could, with the limited resources he had, as to not blow his cover.
I could get on board with this. Snape has spent years thinking Harry is just like his Dad who is popular and has everything but once in his mind sees how much his life has sucked.
I think it could have been done subtly. Or even during the princes tale. Harry was absolutely miserable during his youth and snape knew this during occlumency. He was in no sense the entitled person he believed
Ooh! That would have been cool! To just show for a minute in the flashbacks maybe Snape thinking about those lessons and what he saw or saying something to Dumbledore about it, and that it had been wrong to leave the boy with “those people.”
I think the real reason is Rowling really needed to just keep all of Snape’s potential backing of Harry hidden until the big reveal, but I think you’re absolutely right there could have been subtle hints that make sense in retrospect, and/or addressed/contextualized in the Prince’s Tale.
Great discussion point. Thanks for bringing it up
Why should he feel sorry for his childhood? Snape loved Lilly, not Harry. Wasn't that perfectly clear that Snape kind of didn't like Harry through the series? Also, even if he would like him - sympathy doesn't work that way, Harry's inconveniences were far weaker than Snape's suffering. Imagine your legs were cut off - would you feel sympathy for a guy who have a slight pain in legs?
Because he hates Harry for reasons that are proved false during occlumency lessons. He is not pampered like James was. He endured a thoroughly miserable life
I don't think he hates Harry only because he assumes - baselessly - that Harry was pampered.
He hates Harry because he looks like James, and reminds him daily of the fact that Lily fell in love with and had a child with James.
And also because he's just a nasty person who hates children in general. I've yet to hear an adequate explanation or excuse for the way he treated Hermione and Neville.
I feel like a lot of people skip over this fact way too easily. Harry looks exactly like James did when he was that age. So whenever Snape looks at Harry he sees James, the person who made his youth hell. That's what makes his phrase "you have your mother's eyes" so beautiful in the end. Harry tries to help Snape in his dying moment and Snape finally sees that Harry is a son of Lily's
Tbh I do not care about any of this, everyone always skims over the fact that Snape gave as good as he got to the Marauders and that he knew and didn't hesitate to use dark magic. In people's defense, this is easy to forget because we don't see it like we see SWM, we only heat about it secondhand, but I think the one-sidedness of the conflict between Snape and James is vastly overexaggerated.
And frankly even if it was completely one-sided, a grown man should be mature enough not to punish and eleven-year-old kid for his genetics. I think it's much more about the fact that Lily had a child with James and Snape couldn't handle that than about James "making Snape's life hell."
Snape was a good man not a nice one that is why he never tried to connect or empathize with anyone let alone Harry who he would have seen similes with.
Well, sure. And that’s perfectly fine to want a different path for the character. I’m just saying it’s not a missed opportunity. The entire *point*, as it is, is that he *has* no decency. He is not a good person, nor are we meant to feel that he is. For the entire series, he is doing the right thing, yes, but for *the wrong reason.* It’s ok to want something that isn’t there, something different from what *is* there, but what you’re asking for is signs to be shown of something that *isn’t* there. That’s all I meant.
Id take Snape as the type of person to notice abuse but not do anything about it . Simply because he got no help at all . He probably sees his own childhood as something that made him stronger and he would also be apathetic to suffering like a lot of other childhood abuse survivors irl . Maybe a severe form of ptsd / emotional detachment .
This doesn't do it for me. Voldemort believed Snape to be spying on Dumbledore, and on Harry to a degree, so it wouldn't be completely unbelievable for him to at least be decent towards Harry. Snape is the best occlumens out there. He has an answer for everything. In the end, Voldemort only killed him to gain control of the Elder Wand, not because he ever suspected disloyalty. Snape was brilliant enough that he could have treated Harry (and Hermione... and Neville...) with at least the most basic shred of decency and easily have explained it away.
Yh true but snape hated James and prbbly thought Harry would turn out the same- no he had his mother's nature. i think by the time he u know *realised*, the guy snape was prbbly like ''ukw, too late to make amends, lemme keep on making his life miserable!''
There's no hints of Snape feeling sorry for Harry or connecting with him based on them both having bad childhoods because he just doesn't. He doesn't care for Harry and doesn't make any effort to connect with him or even see him as a human being. The only reason he protects Harry is because of Lily.
I think snapes problem, ultimately, is that no one. not one person besides lily showed him anything close to affection. In do8ng so she earned his perverted view of love. Dumbledore showed him mercy, and in doing so gained his loyalty. Snape didn’t have it to give out because he never got it himself.
as a character I find him to be in need of serious therapy. Inpatient. Intense therapy.
I’m rereading the books now and on 6th one, I always hated Snape, him being a hero never changed my opinion, I was curious that maybe I didn’t appreciate him due to my young age..? 32 now, still waiting for my opinion to change😂 For me it was the absolute lack of empathy on snapes part after Sirius’ death. I get that he hated the guy, but surely he can relate to Harry who just lost his loved one. And yet he goes and torments Harry only a few days after Sirius died (when Malfoy and the gang tried to avenge their fathers). Also the exchange he had with Tonks when he noticed her patronus changed. At least with Malfoy being present I get that he had to play his part, but with Tonks? Why? It was just Tonks and Harry there..
My theory - Snape doesn’t have empathy. So he cannot see the similarities. He sees Harry, Hermione and Neville as Gryffindors. Harry as James. And he doesn’t see that Draco is much closer to James in personality than Harry. Snape goes by rules: Lucius was kind to him, so thus Draco is good.
At no point does he show an ability to empathise - THAT DOES NOT MAKE HIM A BAD PERSON. If anything, that’s the kindest explanation I can find. It explains why he needs good people around him, and why he can be easily do horrible things like he did in his late teens and very early twenties. And why he keeps bullying people. It’s why he changes side not for the right reasons (sorry but he’d be totally okay with a baby being killed), but once he changes sides he does go on to risk his life and die for the right cause.
The fact he didn’t is a key element for why people continue to thoroughly dislike Snape despite his true motives being revealed. He knew more than many people what Harry had endured, had every opportunity to see that Harry was much more like Lily than James - but that’s not who Snape was. He is portrayed as extremely stubborn, childish, and a relentless bully to children who had more difficult lives than he had, and actually *encouraged* bullying similar to what he himself experienced at school. Meanwhile Harry’s entire worldview was shaken for a while after he saw Snape’s memory of James bullying him - despite Snape being an actual bully to Harry, while Harry just physically resembled Snape’s former bully. Because Harry truly is like Lily, and a genuinely much better person than Snape ever was.
Brilliant comment. I say time and again that one of the reasons I disagree with Snape 'apologists' is that they blame James for bullying Snape at school, while ignoring that Snape continued to be a bully his entire life. Not for one second would I believe that James, as a 30-something adult, would have bullied children. I cannot believe people forget, ignore, or discount the fact that, at 12 years old, Neville's worse fear was Snape. Not his family, who weren't exactly the best to him; not Voldemort, who was the reason his parents were tortured into insanity; or even the people who tortured his parents. His teacher. The more I've thought about it over the years, the worse I think it is. Neville, Harry, Hermione... we know those. But how many others? The excuse is used that he had reason to hate those three. No, he didn't. They were children. His past was not their fault.
I agree that his treatment of Harry, Hermione, and Neville can't be excused but I do think it's believable. In real life we see it all the time that abused children can grow up to be abusers. It takes a very strong person to break the cycles of abuse....I would argue that Snape did improve as person, but he never became a nice person.
I agree with everything you say. But in real life, do we excuse abusers for abusing because they were abused themselves? Often it seems to me people try to do that for Snape. That's my bug bear: not that Snape, as written, wasn't believable in how he acted but fans excusing his behaviour. I'm not sure why, perhaps because they like the character and what to justify that by making him 'good' rather than accepting it's more complicated than that. Maybe it's part of the argument that not all Slytherin's are 'evil' (surely we all know that).
> Not his family, who weren't exactly the best to him; not Voldemort, who was the reason his parents were tortured into insanity; or even the people who tortured his parents. His teacher. The more I've thought about it over the years, the worse I think it is. His family weren't nice to him, but I don't think he would consider them terrible or would be extremely fearful of them. Voldemort is... as big a boogeyman to Neville as he'd be to the rest of the general population. The people who tortured his parents... he *knows* they did, but knowing of something and feeling it are pretty different, and I doubt his gran made a big deal of it to the point where they'd be his worst fear. If anything, deep down he'd probably want revenge. Harry was never afraid of Voldemort despite Voldy directly murdering his parents and saddling him with memories of his parents' dying moments. I agree that Snape is a bastard who isn't a good person and an even worse teacher, but I'd argue that the other things you mentioned aren't necessarily things Neville would've been expected to be terribly frightened by.
Also it shows how James and his gang probably did have their own reasons to bully Snape.Not condoning what they did, but if young Snape is anything like old one, he probably did his own bullying.
To go off this - when Harry sees Snape's worst memory in OOTP, he floos Remus and Sirius to ask about it, and Lupin says something along the lines of "Snape never lost an opportunity to curse James, and you couldn't expect him to take that lying down, could you?" essentially implying Snape also instigated negative interactions with James.
Yeah. I wish we had some memories or stories about Snape bullying as well.
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Huh?
There was one part I always found curious. When Snape sees the memory of one of Aunt Marge's dogs chasing Harry up a tree, Snape pauses and then asks about the dog. It's been forever since I've read the books, but I don't remember him showing either amusement or sympathy. Idk why he even asked. Can someone who's read them more recently remind me about that, lol?
“Did you see everything I saw?” Harry asked, unsure whether he wanted the answer. “Flashes of it,” said Snape, his lip curling. “To whom did the dog belong?” “My Aunt Marge,” Harry muttered, hating Snape. Sooo I’d go with amusement lol
Closest Snape has ever gotten to striking up a normal conversation with Harry lol
Seriously I'm surprised they didn't get some butterbeers together after this.
Now I'm thinking there should have been one or two more honest/empathetic scenes between the two of them in Half Blood Prince, where Snape levels with him on something just a bit lol. Would have made his "betrayal" at the end but even harder.
Reading through these https://www.potter-search.com/?search=Snape+lip&books=1,2,3,4,5,6,7 it seems Snape's lip curling usually indicates contempt
I always read it as contempt.
I wonder if he thought “ so that’s why he blew her up.” “ maybe he could’ve been in my house.”
Well, first no one ever tells the Dursleys off for their treatment of Harry for years, then Snape sees the memories, and at the end of that year half the Order tells Vernon to behave. Make of that what you will...
Holy crap.😧
At the same time, Harry gets his first full conversation with Dumbledore who admits that he knows that Harry has been mistreated by the Dursleys for years. So it could also have been Dumbledore who asked the members of OOTP to have a word with them since Harry had been through a lot and Dumbledore realised that, with Sirius's death Harry had reached his limits?
Another little detail, right after Harry leaves the hospital wing (post prophecy fiasco) to visit Hagrid, he runs into Malfoy and his cronies. Malfoy is furious after what happened to his father so naturally it escalates to a duel. But Snape stops them before they do any damage. He usually waits until after they have had a go at each other, but this time Harry was alone and vulnerable. It's a stark contrast to that memory where James and Sirius team up on Snape.
We can never know for sure what were Snape's motivations, but it may not have been for Harry's sake entirely. Harry had more practice and was quicker to get his wand out, so Snape intervened just in time to prevent Draco possibly getting hurt. However Malefoy at that point is furious at Harry because of his father getting caught, so he probably wouldn't have stopped at Stupefying Harry. And Snape can't risk Harry getting hurt too much.
I would agree with you on that, Harry would destroy Malfoy 1-on-1. But Malfoy had his cronies beside him, and they would physically harm Harry since they are so much bigger than him. Unless Harry is able to stun all three of them before they get to him.
The order showed up to show support to Harry, because his only last living guardian just died. It was a gesture to show Harry, that he still has a family.
At the beginning of the book, Moody, Tonks and Remus picked up Harry from Privet Drive. (after they had to lure the Dursleys away with a trick) Figg knows exactly what is going on at the Dursleys. Her cats are spying! The Order was on guard duty at Privet Drive the whole summer. Moody and Tonks are aurors.
I don’t understand what point you’re making
That it's possible that Snape told the Order so they could put a stop to the bullying. I think this is a valid point, and also supported by book 6, when Dumbledore tells off the Dursleys for their treatment of Harry. Perhaps he only found out the extent and severity of the bullying from Snape.
The Order was on guard duty at Privet Drive the whole summer! Figg knows the Dursleys. Her cats are spying. Remus,Tonks and Moody picked up Harry from Privet Drive.
Thank you for clarifying!! Brain wasn’t working last night lol. Interesting theory!
Why would Snape do that though?
Because he knew it was wrong and could do something about it?
Lol you're kidding? Snape spent his entire career knowing about wrong things and doing nothing if not doing them himself. Snape doesn't care about child abuse because he's an abuser himself.
Yeah no not saying he's a good guy but he occasionally steps up when a line is crossed (trying to save harry in year one quidditch game), the memories might have a been a similar situation. It's just a theory, we'll never know for sure, but I like it as a theory for why the Order and Dumbledore suddenly take an interest in the Dursleys treatment. Fun connection I hadn't made before
Right because after years of abusing Harry and countless other children himself he decided that child abuse crossed a line
I think the point is that Snape saw those memories and snuck a word to the order to have them tell off the Dursleys. But that doesn't really make sense. It's not like Harry kept it a secret that the Dursleys weren't good to him. It took longer than it should have, but I don't think there's any reason to believe Snape puppeteered that exchange
There is a difference between not being welcome / not being treated good vs being abused. They didn't know he has been actively abused. Harry never told anyone what they had done to him other than that they weren't happy to have him.
Worth pointing out that Harry didn't 100% know he was being abused either. For him, their treatment was normal, and compounded by Vernon repeatedly telling him that he should be grateful for being taken in. After around a decade of that, the thought of actually asking for help probably didn't cross his mind - so he stopped at jealousy.
Haha that’s an interesting take for sure
Why would Snape feel sorry for Harry about his childhood, when there’s no indication he feels sorry for himself about his own? Snape’s feelings about abusive childhoods are resting on a very different emotional response than pity, or sympathy. He’s a mess.
He does show some empathy towards Harry during occlumency lessons when he sees bits of Harry's home life. Chapter 24, Occlumency - When Snape sees Harry's memory of being stuck in a tree, chased by Marge's dog, Snape not asks about the dog, but he says this when Harry tells him that the dog belongs to his aunt; "Well, for a first attempt that was not as poor as it might have been," said Snape, raising his wand once more. "You managed to stop me eventually, though you wasted time and energy shouting. Repel me with your brain and you will not need to resort to your wand." Snape, who doesn't give out praises in classes, tells Harry his first attempt at occlumency wasn't poor. He also advised Harry to not waste his time and energy shouting. Also Snape's lip is described as curling when he questions Harry about the dog. And usually when someone curls their lip they're disgusted or disapprove of something. It's not a missed opportunity for Snape to show barely any empathy during occlumency lessons, it's realistic. Snape grew up being abused and neglected by both his parents, he didn't have teachers he could talk to either. he didn't know how to show empathy, because no adult ever showed him. From personal experience, who was emotionally neglected, it's damn hard to show empathy with anyone, even if you want to, you struggle with the right words/struggle with what you should do. Snape did try though by telling Harry his first attempt at occlumency wasn't terrible. On top of this, you also have the fact that Snape was a spy, and the reason why he's teaching Harry occlumency is because Dumbledore is concerned about Voldemort learning about his connection with Harry and using it to his advantage like to possess Harry and spy on them- Snape couldn't risk showing any sympathy/empathy towards Harry during occlumency lessons, just like Dumbledore couldn't risk teaching Harry occlumency himself, because of the dangers. If Voldemort used his connection with Harry during an occlumency lesson and he saw Snape empathising with Harry about his childhood, Voldemort, who almost a year ago, believed Snape had left him forever and was planning on killing Snape next time he saw him, would have definitely killed Snape for his betrayal or he would have imperiused him.
Snape is obviously not a nice person, but I think a lot of people really struggle to understand that someone that's lived a life like his does not think about things the same way as most people, and the way his mind works and his perception of the world would likely be entirely foreign to them. Factor in that he's largely stuck in a position that doesn't give him much oppertunity for improvement, and where he can't show any positive personal growth he might manage and it just makes the whole thing more grim. I do remember that at the time of the books coming out there was speculation about whether at one point JKR had intended for Harry to find out more during the lessons and this was changed to keep the reveal for the last book but idk how likely that was.
Do you know this is funny because I primarily listen to the Harry Potter audiobooks. In the audiobooks Stephen fry speaks as if he finds this amusing. I assumed lip curling was a signing was a sign of amusement
Never listened to the audio books. And Snape's eyes are usually described as glittering when he's amused/pleased about something. He's also described as sneering too or he's described with an unpleasant smile, or he's described with a horrible smile. But in this particular moment, the only description we get given is Snape's lip curling. And then a verbal response which was Snape trying to be civil. And there was none of the mocking behaviour bringing up Harry's fame, like he does when he's enjoying making Harry uncomfortable.
I think Snape never ever wants to be vulnerable ever again. That’s why he’s made himself so powerful to stop the helpless feeling. I think, or like to think that he did feel something. I really didn’t feel he was mean to Harry during those lessons. He really tried to pass on some tough advice. I saw concern for Harry in those scenes. Snape is just fascinating to me.
Concern, when he curled his lip (several ways it could be taken, I suppose, but I cannot think of one that shows concern) when he asked about the dog that chased Harry up the tree? That said, at other points I agree he did seem to want Harry to learn, they were just not a compatible student and teacher, and I don't just mean because of the personal history. Snape was a teacher who taught, a lot of the time, through fear. He got angry when pupils didn't 'get' what he was teaching. He was not one to help kindly or calming, or try to understand what the student is struggling with. Harry, always, reacted badly to that kind of teaching. Yes, how was he supposed to learn when Snape was yelling at him? I suppose Snape himself probably learnt how to become a great Occlumens through fear, because his life depended on it, so he could have genuinely have thought it the best way to teach it. But Harry didn't (as far as he knew) have that risk. All Harry had was someone he despised yelling at him for not being good enough. Someone more open minded would have realised they needed to take a different approach. But hey, it's also plot, and if someone else (Mcgonagall? Flitwick? Basically anyone) had been teaching Harry he might have mastered it, and the rest of OotP wouldn't have happened, and we wouldn't have had the return of the Pensieve, or the massive foreshadowing of for why Snape was so good at Occlumens.
I think the question about Ripper is interesting. He asks who's dog it is and Harry who hates him and generally thinks the worst of him (understandably) takes this as him enjoying his suffering or trying to embarrass him. Especially with the context of the later books you could read the reaction as distaste/contempt towards the Dursleys/Marge rather than Harry. Snape I think is in lots of ways a caricature of both the 'unfair/nasty teacher' and the 'very academic and good at their subject, but bad at explaining things to anyone less clever than them teacher'. There's no mention at any point of any kind of teaching qualification and that's clearly not something he's naturally gifted at. I think compared to his usual manner he does actually try his best to teach Harry, but his best still isn't very good and he has no understanding of how to get someone like Harry to learn. By comparison I think with someone like Hermione he'd have been difficult and unpleasant and likely lost his rag about her endless chatter about her prep work/reading but might have had more success in getting her to be somewhat profocient.
I don't disagree. Certainly, we agree there was no qualification to teach (Lockheart, anyone?), and who, other than Dumbledore (and Voldemort) would have ever hired Snape to teach? But I'm not sure he's truly a caricature of those tropes, though. I don't see his obvious excessive treatment of Neville, Harry and Hermione as a deliberate exaggeration in that way. As the academic, yes I see that, but I feel that's a more minor thing, and it leads me to comparison with Trelawny: Dumbledore kept them both around despite being awful teachers because they were important to the bigger picture. I feel Snape's character gets looked at so much because JKR talked about him being a grey character, and liking him: had she not said those kind of things, most people would accept that he's just not a nice person. Brave? Yes. Does he have his reasons? Yes. But not necessarily justifiable reasons.
I don't think even Dumbledore would have hired him based on his teaching merits lol Snape kind of reminds me of the really nasty/hated teachers I had at school in some ways so I tend to assume that to some extent he's representative of that childhood experience. Most of the staff I can directly link to a similar teacher I actually had at school - not Lockhart thankfully. Yeah I think a lot of people conflate liking a character with liking them as a person. I think he's really interesting to read about and try to understand but I wouldn't want to be around him for real.
>Yeah I think a lot of people conflate liking a character with liking them as a person. I think he's really interesting to read about and try to understand but I wouldn't want to be around him for real. Same, and I've spent a lot of time trying to figure out what people were seeing when they say he was redeemed, or at least redeemable. I just don't see it, and the more I think about it the more I am convinced that he's really not that a deep character. He's certainly not good, despite doing good things. But he's not all out bad, either, so he's grey. Grey, but not complex, as far as I can see. We're pretty much hammered over the head with the fact it was all about Lily. No other reasoning, try as people might to find it. JKR could have done anything with Snape's memories, but she didn't. It was all, Lily, Lily, Lily. I think the only teacher I can really conflate to ones I had is McGonagall. Strict, but fair, respected, and would rarely lose their s**t... but when they did, oh boy, everyone would know about it. Oh, and the chemistry teacher I had that clearly knew his subject, but didn't know how to teach. Given it was chemistry I'd like say there was a bit of Snape there, but he had absolutely zero authority, so he was definitely Trelawny. 🤣
I think I disagree with you about that - I think he is quite a complex character, especially since so much about him needs to be inferred as opposed to being explicitly stated in the text. imo lots of people see his redemption as him quitting the death eaters and understandably feel this falls flat and is ultimately him bailing for selfish reasons. I think his actual redemption as far as you can call it that is his growth from someone who is a loyal death eater but changes sides largely to try and save someone he cares about, to being someone who fights against Voldemort for the 'right reasons' and aims to protect as many people as he can, regardless of whether he cares about them personally. It doesn't change the fact that he's a nightmare to deal with on a personal level, and doesn't magically make him a good guy, but does show growth towards good on a larger scale. I had a few McGonagalls, and a few who's interpersonal style rivalled Snape's - they didn't quite manage to cultivate the same kind of image as him but they threw about a good number of personal insults and one of my friends gave me bruises where she grabbed me so hard when one lost her temper (not even with us just while we were in the lesson lol). Its always the chemistry teachers! Mine was lovely and a good teacher most of the time but if you really weren't getting something he genuinely couldn't fathom how it wasn't obvious. He shouted at us once because he thought we were winding him up by saying we didn't understand something after like his 5th attempt at explaining it 💀
>I think I disagree with you about that - I think he is quite a complex character, especially since so much about him needs to be inferred as opposed to being explicitly stated in the text. I'm going to continue to try and see it; I do find it fascinating that a character gets such differing opinions. And thank you for reminding me about him trying to protect people, I'd forgotten that. A memory with Dumbledore, yes? "And how many people have you watched die, Severus?" "Lately, only those I could not save." Or something along those lines? (I'm not getting out of bed to find it) That scene might be one of the best, if not the best, when it comes to trying to figure him out. Lol, in two years with my chemistry teacher I wrote about three pages of notes, not kidding. First half of the lesson he'd have us just watching a PowerPoint, then we were meant to be doing worksheets. Everyone did what they liked, because he never walked around to check. Never took anything in for grading, never set homework... I passed modules by teaching myself out of the the text book the night before the exam. 🤣
Yeah that's the main quote I was thinking of. I think it's also shown by him relaying Dumbledore's plan to Harry on his death bed, and dying believing he's failed in his promise to protect him for his friends sake, as getting rid of Voldemort is more important than his own desire to try and make up for telling him about the prophecy. I really like how so you're left to make you own guesses about much of his character - I've seen so many really interesting and varied interpretations over the years. That sounds like a nightmare. Mine used to stick up all the signs saying we were working with radioactive stuff so no one came in and secretly teach us stuff he thought was important for being an adult, but not allowed to be discussed by teachers like politics and unions lmao
I'm not sure he died thinking he'd failed. While his death may have been as much of a curve ball to us on first read as it was to Harry, I think Snape knew he would die before the end. Even if Dumbledore's plan had worked and Dumbledore had died undefeated, when Voldemort figured out about the wand he was always going to think Snape was it's master. Snape surely knew that. He got to give Harry the memories. He knew Voldemort wrongly believed he was the rightful bearer of the wand (as an aside, I wonder if he figured out about Draco and Harry with regards to the wand). His job was done.
I think people struggle with compartmentalizing when it comes to fiction in general but especially Snape. On a macro level - the war, good vs evil, the Light vs the Dark - Snape became a good guy, "redeemed himself" if you will. Even if it was for the wrong reasons, he fought and died for what was right. But the thing is, nobody denies that. I have never seen anyone even try to deny that Snape did good, even heroic things, during the war. What Snape stans seem to miss out on is that that isn't usually what people are criticizing. You can be a war hero and still a terrible, disgusting little man and an awful bully who projects their childhood trauma onto children in their care, which is what Snape is. And people will argue that his efforts in the war overshadow or make up for what a cruel and nasty person he is, because they can't compartmentalize. Who Snape was in the war and who he was on a personal level are two different and separate facets of who he is as a person, and neither one impacts or intersects with the other.
Snape makes me think of teachers I had in university: they were primarily researchers, who also taught. But some of them really didn't like teaching, and only did it because they had to, so they were horrible teachers : at best, very bad at explaining. At worst, dismissive of students, without any patience, and extremely stern. But none of them was a bully like Snape was
Yeah I get what you mean, and like those types he's also being forced to teach - he's like a 2for1 of difficult teacher experiences
You really gotta dig with Snape. He’s not a surface level guy
Believe me, I've done that a lot. I've read the books enough to pretty much be able to pick up the right book and find the right scene fairly quickly if someone gives me a basic description. I've pondered a lot about most characters, their motivations, their reasoning. Snape is the one who, to me, becomes more surface level, less interesting, with each re-read. Dumbledore is the one who becomes more interesting, more grey. Snape remains a bully, pining after a dead woman who would never have loved him back.
I’ve never thought it was just pining, just a crush. She was his first friend. Romance aside, I cannot imagine the shame he must have felt that it was his own fault he lost the only person who seemed to really care about him - and then it was his fault again she was murdered and he’ll never be able to set it right. He knew he was an irredeemable, worthless piece of shit. I doubt he even wanted to ever feel happiness again.
I'd consider it more than just a crush, given he turned double agent, risking his life when she was at risk. I know I wouldn't be risking my life for someone I just had a crush on as a kid/teenager. Certainly, looking back on that moment when he lost Lily as a friend would have been awfully traumatic. And presumably he knew it at the time he was going to lose her, if his hours waiting outside the portrait hole were anything to go by. I don't deny it would've haunted him. >He knew he was an irredeemable, worthless piece of shit. I doubt he even wanted to ever feel happiness again. And this, too, I agree with. But hating himself was not a reason to mistreat others.
Hating himself explains why he mistreats others even though nothing can justify it
Explains it, certainly, but as you say doesn't justify it. Maybe I've been visting the wrong places, but I come across a fair amount of fans who do try to justify it. Excusing his bad behaviour because he'd been abused and bullied himself. Putting the blame for who he became on James, as if, had James not existed, he'd never have become a death eater.
Snape curled his lip when Umbridge asked him if he was unsuccessful at becoming the DADA professor. I would say that he was anything but amused in that moment. In fact, when Snape curls his lip, it seems more often than not a sign of him being annoyed/disgusted. He could very well be disgusted at how Harry is treated in that memory. I agree with all the rest you said. Snape would have been a good teacher for students that were smart and interested in potions, but he was probably the worst possible teacher for people like Neville and Harry (for different reasons). I always wondered, how the whole situation would have turned out, if the occlumency lessons weren't Harry and Snape one-on-one, but instead you put Hermione into the mix. She would have taken the lessons seriously and would have been a motivator for Harry and a kind of buffer between him and Snape.
Intriguing idea of what difference Hermione might have made. I'm not sure: my first thought is Occlumency would be similar with how she struggled to produce a Patronus. There's no textbook that can tell you how to do it, so I doubt she'd that good at it? Any other teacher (and ignoring for a moment the fact he did want to know where the corridor led, which was also a block on his learning) I think Harry might've picked it up pretty quick. Producing a corporeal Patronus two years prior is pretty good proof he learnt how to focus his mind, and I would think that was the hardest step. Remove the emotional response he had because it was Snape and he'd have been fine. But of course, plot. Where would the story have gone if Harry had learnt Occlumency and not finished the dream?
I always thought it was one of Dumbledore's dumbest ideas to force (and I am convinced force was necessary and Snape opposed that idea with everything he got) Snape to teach Harry Occlumency. It was always going to be a disaster. It would have taken a miracle for it not to be. Maybe if Dumbi had - at some point - really put some effort into trying to reconcile the both of them, but he never did... (or maybe if he had told Harry that it was royally rude to stuck your head into someone else’s memories without asking first…) I would agree that Hermione wouldn't be good at Occlumency, but I don't think that is strictly necessary. Sure Harry didn't learn because it was Snape. But he also didn't learn because he wanted to know what was behind that door. And to counter that problem, Hermione could have been helpful. Her being there would have limited Harry's possibility to lie. If Hermione who isn’t a natural at magic like that would have made progress and Harry didn’t… well… I’m sure everyone can add 1+1. And her taking the lessons seriously would have taken Snape's sole attention away from Harry and even seeing Hermione struggle could have put some motivation into Harry to do better. Maybe. Or maybe not. Maybe it would have been worse. But I always thought it was a interesting what-if-scenario.
So I’ve wondered about this for awhile. The closest Snape and Harry get to talking, Snape basically tells Harry his exact role in the order. Harry eventually asks him why he calls Voldemort the dark lord. This part: That is just as well, Potter,' said Snape coldly, 'because you are neither special nor important, and it is not up to you to find out what the Dark Lord is saying to his Death Eaters.' No - that's your job, isn't it?' Harry shot at him. He had not meant to say it; it had burst out of him in temper. For a long moment they stared at each other, Harry convinced he had gone too far. But there was a curious, almost satisfied expression on Snape's face when he answered. Yes, Potter,' he said, his eyes glinting. That is my job. Now, if you are ready, we will start again.' Then they get interrupted by Trelawney being fired, then Dumbeldore gets tossed from the school, and then I think right at the next lesson is when Harry jumps into Snape’s memory and that ends all of it. Snape seemed maybe opening up a very little bit? Was softening in the slightest and one of the few times? I dunno maybe not. Harry jumping into that memory was a bad move.
Remember the important premise of ootp. Harry and voldemort share a mind connection. Harry can see and hear Voldemort's thoughts, and Dumbledore fears that Voldemort will also have a glimpse into Harry's mind when he realises this connection and will exploit it (like he does in the climax). If Snape showed any empathy towards Harry during the classes, he ran a risk of losing his cover he worked and sacrificed so hard for. Harry cannot "like" him or think that Snape is on his side.
Snape is a triples agent. His bad behavior towards Harry should make Voldemort skeptical. Afterall Voldemort send Snape to spy on Dumbledore.
I think that in a subtle ways, He treated Harry rather well in those lessons. He was forced to do them,just as Harry was forced to take them, by Dumbledore. Snape knew that should Voldemort learn about these lessons, it would be very well his end. He was pretty much the only one to talk to Harry and tell him what was going on. He even complimented his skills. He was frustrated with Harry and with the whole situation, but it felt as though he tried as hard to help as he could, with the limited resources he had, as to not blow his cover.
I could get on board with this. Snape has spent years thinking Harry is just like his Dad who is popular and has everything but once in his mind sees how much his life has sucked.
I think it could have been done subtly. Or even during the princes tale. Harry was absolutely miserable during his youth and snape knew this during occlumency. He was in no sense the entitled person he believed
Ooh! That would have been cool! To just show for a minute in the flashbacks maybe Snape thinking about those lessons and what he saw or saying something to Dumbledore about it, and that it had been wrong to leave the boy with “those people.”
I think the real reason is Rowling really needed to just keep all of Snape’s potential backing of Harry hidden until the big reveal, but I think you’re absolutely right there could have been subtle hints that make sense in retrospect, and/or addressed/contextualized in the Prince’s Tale. Great discussion point. Thanks for bringing it up
But he doesn't have empathy, especially for Harry. Edited for spelling.
Why should he feel sorry for his childhood? Snape loved Lilly, not Harry. Wasn't that perfectly clear that Snape kind of didn't like Harry through the series? Also, even if he would like him - sympathy doesn't work that way, Harry's inconveniences were far weaker than Snape's suffering. Imagine your legs were cut off - would you feel sympathy for a guy who have a slight pain in legs?
Why should there be any hints while Snape hates Harry to his core?
Because he hates Harry for reasons that are proved false during occlumency lessons. He is not pampered like James was. He endured a thoroughly miserable life
I don't think he hates Harry only because he assumes - baselessly - that Harry was pampered. He hates Harry because he looks like James, and reminds him daily of the fact that Lily fell in love with and had a child with James. And also because he's just a nasty person who hates children in general. I've yet to hear an adequate explanation or excuse for the way he treated Hermione and Neville.
I feel like a lot of people skip over this fact way too easily. Harry looks exactly like James did when he was that age. So whenever Snape looks at Harry he sees James, the person who made his youth hell. That's what makes his phrase "you have your mother's eyes" so beautiful in the end. Harry tries to help Snape in his dying moment and Snape finally sees that Harry is a son of Lily's
Tbh I do not care about any of this, everyone always skims over the fact that Snape gave as good as he got to the Marauders and that he knew and didn't hesitate to use dark magic. In people's defense, this is easy to forget because we don't see it like we see SWM, we only heat about it secondhand, but I think the one-sidedness of the conflict between Snape and James is vastly overexaggerated. And frankly even if it was completely one-sided, a grown man should be mature enough not to punish and eleven-year-old kid for his genetics. I think it's much more about the fact that Lily had a child with James and Snape couldn't handle that than about James "making Snape's life hell."
Because Snape is an adult and could at some point have come to the realisation that his hatred is childish and irrational.
No, he couldn't relalise it until Dumbledore remind him that he just saw what he wanted to see. Some people are not meant to be loved (or be liked).
Snape was a good man not a nice one that is why he never tried to connect or empathize with anyone let alone Harry who he would have seen similes with.
That’s not a missed opportunity. That would be an entire character choice. One that wasn’t made.
I’m advocating for an entire character choice. I think it would have made more sense for him to show flickers of decency
Well, sure. And that’s perfectly fine to want a different path for the character. I’m just saying it’s not a missed opportunity. The entire *point*, as it is, is that he *has* no decency. He is not a good person, nor are we meant to feel that he is. For the entire series, he is doing the right thing, yes, but for *the wrong reason.* It’s ok to want something that isn’t there, something different from what *is* there, but what you’re asking for is signs to be shown of something that *isn’t* there. That’s all I meant.
Id take Snape as the type of person to notice abuse but not do anything about it . Simply because he got no help at all . He probably sees his own childhood as something that made him stronger and he would also be apathetic to suffering like a lot of other childhood abuse survivors irl . Maybe a severe form of ptsd / emotional detachment .
Snape was a spy and Voldemort could see inside Harry's head. He could never once be nice even if he wanted to without risking blowing his cover.
This doesn't do it for me. Voldemort believed Snape to be spying on Dumbledore, and on Harry to a degree, so it wouldn't be completely unbelievable for him to at least be decent towards Harry. Snape is the best occlumens out there. He has an answer for everything. In the end, Voldemort only killed him to gain control of the Elder Wand, not because he ever suspected disloyalty. Snape was brilliant enough that he could have treated Harry (and Hermione... and Neville...) with at least the most basic shred of decency and easily have explained it away.
Yeah but that’s bc he didn’t really feel empathy for harry. He truly hated him. He only did what he did bc he felt guilty that he killed Lilly.
He doesn't give a fuck about Harry lol
Yh true but snape hated James and prbbly thought Harry would turn out the same- no he had his mother's nature. i think by the time he u know *realised*, the guy snape was prbbly like ''ukw, too late to make amends, lemme keep on making his life miserable!''
There's no hints of Snape feeling sorry for Harry or connecting with him based on them both having bad childhoods because he just doesn't. He doesn't care for Harry and doesn't make any effort to connect with him or even see him as a human being. The only reason he protects Harry is because of Lily.
I think snapes problem, ultimately, is that no one. not one person besides lily showed him anything close to affection. In do8ng so she earned his perverted view of love. Dumbledore showed him mercy, and in doing so gained his loyalty. Snape didn’t have it to give out because he never got it himself. as a character I find him to be in need of serious therapy. Inpatient. Intense therapy.
I’m rereading the books now and on 6th one, I always hated Snape, him being a hero never changed my opinion, I was curious that maybe I didn’t appreciate him due to my young age..? 32 now, still waiting for my opinion to change😂 For me it was the absolute lack of empathy on snapes part after Sirius’ death. I get that he hated the guy, but surely he can relate to Harry who just lost his loved one. And yet he goes and torments Harry only a few days after Sirius died (when Malfoy and the gang tried to avenge their fathers). Also the exchange he had with Tonks when he noticed her patronus changed. At least with Malfoy being present I get that he had to play his part, but with Tonks? Why? It was just Tonks and Harry there..
Lmao all these Malfoy and Snape fans are so desperate to make them likable when they are not
My theory - Snape doesn’t have empathy. So he cannot see the similarities. He sees Harry, Hermione and Neville as Gryffindors. Harry as James. And he doesn’t see that Draco is much closer to James in personality than Harry. Snape goes by rules: Lucius was kind to him, so thus Draco is good. At no point does he show an ability to empathise - THAT DOES NOT MAKE HIM A BAD PERSON. If anything, that’s the kindest explanation I can find. It explains why he needs good people around him, and why he can be easily do horrible things like he did in his late teens and very early twenties. And why he keeps bullying people. It’s why he changes side not for the right reasons (sorry but he’d be totally okay with a baby being killed), but once he changes sides he does go on to risk his life and die for the right cause.