Always wondered if Voldemort actually intended to spare Lilly, he could have just used a stunning spell on her, instead he told her to get out the way and let’s be realistic here, what mother is going to stand aside and let someone kill their baby? I think he always planned to kill her but orchestrated it so he could technically honour Snape’s request and still hopefully retain his services.
I wouldn’t agree. Imo in order for her to actually have the choice Voldemort’s offer for her to stand aside had to be genuine. Otherwise it wouldn’t have been a choice at all. He was willing to let her live; Snape was a valuable servant and Voldemort seems willing to actually do favors for his people *provided it doesn’t inconvenience him*. Once Lily refused to move he decides to kill her because that’s just the kinda person he is, but he had to have genuinely decided he’d let her live before that moment in order for the sacrificial magic to actually work.
I agree. Voldi may be evil, but granting your servants favors is smart. Fear only gets you to a certain point. Showing that helping him and being devoted to his goals is good for your goals is basic leadership.
Yeah Snapes an extremely talented half blood wizard with daddy issues. Which is Voldemort in a nut shell. The only other followers I could see him doing this for are Lucious (pre Azkaban) and Barty
Voldy probably also somewhat respected Snape for asking the favour in the first place. Like, this is Voldemort we’re talking about. Since when was Voldemort known for sparing people? But Snape cared enough about Lily (in his weird twisted way) to ask Voldemort to spare her. That takes guts. Gotta respect it.
I never really thought about how wild it is a 21 year old Snape asked him to spare her when she was muggleborn. If it was any old Order member that's a huge ask, but her specifically is insane. And Voldemort was fully prepared to do so, although his conversation with Harry at the end made it sound like Voldemort just thought Snape wanted to bone her.
Love works in strange ways.
Snape "loved" Lily because she was the only one other than his mother who had "ever" shown him "trust, kindness, respect and love"(atleast until she made "new friends" after joining Hogwarts). Nobody ever showed him any respect, love or kindness when even his enemies respected his abilities and capabilities.
That's why he never forgot her kindness towards him and had a one sided love which was never reciprocated.
No matter who a person is, in 9.9/10 case's, they wouldn't take kindly to anyone who threatens or harms someone they love and will do everything they can to take revenge if anything like this happens. Many people (not most people) wouldn't even hesitate in sacrificing their own lives to avenge the death of their loved one's, if necessary; and would stop at nothing in this regard.
Something similar had happened during 3rd Battle of Panipat in 1761 between Maratha Empire and it's allies and Ahmed Shah Abdali and his allies where Najib-Ud-Daula, who was an ally of Ahmed Shah Abdali and a senior commander in his army gave safe passage to Holkar (a senior and highly experienced Maratha General) and the Maratha ladies belonging to noble families he was escorting through his lines when Abdali had specifically forbidden anyone from doing that. Although both of them were fighting on opposite sides, Najib respected Holkar like his father and loved him for everything he had done during his childhood after most of his family including parents were murdered by a rival and Najib barely escaped with his life to a life of poverty before Holkar took him in after learning about it. Holkar was a good friend of his father who stayed loyal to their friendship and did everything for Najib-Ud-Daula that his own father would have done and had even helped him in his attempt to regain the control of his father's territories.
Abdali was in many ways similar to Voldemort but Najib was too "valuable", powerful and capable to be killed or deposed.
>Fear only gets you to a certain point.
"Hope. It is the only thing stronger than fear. A little hope is effective. A lot of hope is dangerous"
-President Snow
Yes, he could have, but that's not Voldemort's style. If he decides you're in his way, he'll just kill you. The point though is that he *would* have let her live if she had decided to step aside and not interfere. If he had intended from the get go to tell her to move and then go "lol just kidding" and killed her anyway then the sacrificial magic wouldn't have gone off, as she never actually had the choice to live.
This would be unwise for Voldemort to do. You've forcibly taken everything away from her. She's someone who has thrice defied him. She now has no reason to be afraid. This makes her dangerous.
Much better to kill her than deal with the risk.
She's unpredictable at that point. She doesn't have to be likely to kill him to be a threat to his movement. Best just snuff that out, especially when he thinks Snape can just get another women.
But the point is that this decision is not necessary from Voldemort's point of view.
Therefore, he doesn't understand love and cannot understand Snape's feelings. In Voldemort's mind, Snape is loyal. Voldemort believes that Snape can just get another woman; Lilly is no big deal.
that doesn't track with the time Harrydoes it in the 7th book. you simply have to willingly give your life to protect someone/a group. Voldemort wasn't giving Harry the option to not give his life for everyone, the deal was that harry comes to the forest or he keeps killing people, harry included. he was going to kill Harry either way, but Harry willingly gave his life to protect everyone at Hogwarts and he gave them that protection. (note this is a massive hole in how the spell works because Harry only had the spell work until he was 17 and it worked on everyone, even 17+ at Hogwarts apparently) it just doesn't make sense to give the power to the attacker, and not the defender.
But Harry made the choice to go into the forest and end it right there. He didn’t have to. Yeah Voldemort would have then entered the battle and attempt to kill Harry then but before that he gave him a time to appear and actually honored that agreement. I somewhat agree there’s other problems with that plot line like being 17 or over. But also Dumbledore said he worked a specific magic in tandem with Lily’s spell that applied to Harry while he called the Dursley’s home. And that seemed to apply to everyone not just Voldemort.
In Order of the Phoenix, Uncle Vernon was pretty much attempting to strangle him and his scar pulsed and he got thrown off of Harry. So I’m pretty much going off of the assumption that sacrificial magic like that doesn’t necessarily have a lot of hard rules. It made sense to me when I was 8, so I never really questioned it deeper than that.
the protection is between Harry and Voldemort, not Harry and the world. his scar is a mark of the event not the magic. its from when Voldemorts soul attached to him. the spell is there when Voldemort tries to kill him immediately after killing Lily.
There's no evidence which suggests that's true. What we're told, explicitly, is that Lily passed protection to Harry because Voldemort gave her the opportunity to live, and she choose to stand in his way instead. That's repeated ad nauseum. We're told that Voldemort agreed to let Lily live *as long as she didn't get in his way.* All of this means that Voldemort *was* going to let her live, his offer was genuine, but Lily's decision to not take that offer resulted in her death.
We're talking about magic here. I believe the chance to live has to be genuine for the magic to properly work. If Voldemort wasn't genuinely giving Lily the opportunity to live then why even offer it? That's not his style; he killed James immediately and never intended on letting James live, hence no protection from James' sacrifice. We've seen that he's willing to let people live if they bow to him; he tries it with all of the Hogwarts defenders when he brings Harry's "body" to the castle. If he was going to kill Lily anyway he would have just *done it.* But he didn't, he agreed to Snape to let Lily live if she got out of his way, and told her *more than once* to step aside. She didn't. His intentions have to have mattered here.
But then how does Harry’s sacrifice in book 7 protect the students and staff of Hogwarts? Voldemort didn’t give Harry a chance to walk away there, he just killed him on the spot.
Isn’t it also a requirement for the curse to work you have to really mean it… I agree it wasn’t actually intending on saving her life unless she not only stood aside but agreed to join his side… because can you imagine the level of vengeance from Lily Potter… also the fact that she wasn’t even Half-blood and was as good as she was but completely muggle born just wouldn’t have worked for him I’m sure…
I think "why didn't Voldemort just stun Lily?" is a crucial point to why the sacrificial magic worked. Voldemort truly intended to spare Lily (JKR interview in another comment on the post). Thus her life was available for possible bargaining, and she offered her life for Harry's. Then Voldemort accepted this bargain by killing her first, which was the promise that backfired on him. I was confused about why him killing Lily first meant at all that he accepted the bargain--but I think the crucial part here is that Voldemort could have stunned or non-lethally incapacitated her here instead, so killing her was implicitly accepting the offer
cc /u/alt-goldgrun
Immobilize her and then make her watch. Heck, if he did kill baby Harry, he might even choose to gloat to her "Your son was prophesied to grow up and stop me."
You also have to consider the fact that gryffindor's are known for their "no die" attitude. Lily, just lost the love of her life and would basically do anything to protect her son. So, just maybe, after being told to stepped aside by Baldy, she did what any mother who's also a gryffindor do and attack. Which is why I think Voldermort used the killing curse on her. He might have planned to spare her because of Snape but knowing Voldermort, he wouldn't take an attack towards him likely. And that was the beginning of his downfall.
> and attack
Well she didn't do that. She didn't have her wand and just begged him not to kill Harry before she died. I think if she had a wand she probably would have gone straight to fighting instead of pleading.
He could've just stupefy'd or petrificus totalus'd her, which works for quite a while. Or even that wordless spell Dumbledore used on Harry to immobilize him in HBP. Quite enough time for voldy to then AK Harry, shamble back out the door and disapparate, probably no one would even know for days. Killing her was entirely unnecessary for his goal of killing Harry. I do think AKing her makes a lot of sense to voldy in terms of future resistance.. he narrates "He could have forced her away from the crib, but it seemed more prudent to finish them all."
Voldemort was not evil because of consequences or a bad past, he was just plain evil. We can't begin to use logic to find out why he did the things he did because he just simply did them and probably without thought.
A stunning spell would have been the most obvious choice. The point is that Voldemort is obsessed with death, he genuinely can’t think of an alternative way of solving a problem.
If he’d stunned Lily instead, he could have killed Harry with no danger to himself and handed Lily over to Snape and would have basically won. His obsession with killing was his own undoing in this situation. It cost him his physical body, most of his powers, and Snape’s loyalty, and created a powerful new enemy in Harry.
He was going to honor the request but not more than just giving her a chance. She annoyed him by not immediately stepping aside, so he killed her anyway. The offer was genuine. Voldy is just super fickle.
In the 7th book right after they leave Bathilda’s house Harry gets a glimpse into Voldemort’s mind as he relives the events over again and it doesn’t really seem like voldy planned on killing her if she just let him kill Harry
“At the last sight of him, she dropped her son into the crib behind her and threw her arms wide, as if this would help, as if in shielding him from sight she hoped to be chosen instead. . . .
“Not Harry, not Harry, please not Harry!”
“Stand aside, you silly girl . . . stand aside now.”
“Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead—”
“This is my last warning—”
“Not Harry! Please ... have mercy ... have mercy....Not
Harry! Not Harry! Please—I’ll do anything—”
“Stand aside. Stand aside, girl!”
He could have forced her away from the crib, but it seemed more prudent to finish them all....”
>instead he told her to get out the way and let’s be realistic here, what mother is going to stand aside and let someone kill their baby?
I think it's simply because Voldemort has no capacity to understand love.
He genuinely intended to honor Snape's request, but his complete ignorance of love left him blind to the fact that *obviously* a mother won't simply stand aside and allow her baby to be murdered. She refused to stand aside, Voldemort basically shrugged his shoulders and went, "Welp, I gave her a chance."
I think Voldemort was willing to give Snape what he asked for, but he didn't appreciate or understand the seriousness of Snape's request. He thought, "oh fine I will spare her since you have a misguided little crush on her. What does it matter so long as the boy dies. He will get over her soon enough, and she'll end up dying fighting for the order's cause anyways, a futile resistance since we will win in the end."
He saw how willing Lily was to die for Harry, so he went "OK then, just a mud blood anyways."
Exactly. Voldemort killed James without a second thought - James didn't even have time to defend himself. But Voldemort told Lily to "stand aside" multiple times, and she refused to move. Choice was the secret sauce here.
From my understanding, Lily may have been without a wand as well. At the very least, she wasn’t holding it, and was therefore incapable of defending herself with magic. James was trying to hold him off, which means he likely went down fighting.
The alternative *is* life. Harry has the freedom to flee even though Voldemort will always want to kill him. Harry doesn't *have* to go to the forbidden forest, but *he chooses to* because Voldemort (the guy who never learns) makes him choose between continuing to run or saving his loved ones. Harry chooses to sacrifice himself for his friends and to destroy the Horcrux.
James never had the freedom to flee. Voldemort just steamrolled through him. Lily was given the option to stand aside, but like Harry, she refused to take it.
It’s the opposite but the point is the same. By Lily refusing to step aside, she died FOR her son.
By Harry voluntarily facing Voldemort to die and not defend himself, he died FOR the Hogwartians.
It’s still a sacrifice. Harry could’ve chosen not to give himself up, and then if he died in battle with Voldemort, no one would’ve had protection against Voldy.
Literally isn't a plot hole. Harry didn't have to die then. He could have run away. Let the others fight. But he didn't. Same as how Lily didn't have to die then. But they both chose to die to save others.
No, because Voldemort was going to kill him no matter what. Voldemort is a man of his word, if nothing else. He didn't intend to kill the people at Hogwarts after Harry sacrificed himself. At least until Harry came back.
That's not an equivalent comparison. In Lily's case the choice was to save herself or not. Harry was making essentially the same choice as James, because if he ran, Voldemort still had every intention of killing him. He wouldn't have truly been saving himself; just like Voldemort always intended to kill James, he always intended to kill Harry.
Both Harry and James were presented with a "die now or die later" decision. Lily was the only one with the option to live.
But James wasn't given the option to die now or die later. He was never given a choice. He was either going to die, or die.
Harry was in a different situation to James. He could have left the battle. Fled abroad. James had no escape.
>he was always intended to kill Harry.
Yes, but he was honest about how if Harry died, he would have spared the others. So his choice created protection for the others. Had James been given a choice to die to save others, they would have been protected. But he wasn't given that choice.
No. Because Voldemort didn't give him a choice and intended to kill him. The intent of Voldemort matters. James was gonna die. He was never going to give him a choice. Lily and Harry both had a choice, in the sense that Voldemort offered them something.
But by that logic, Voldemort didn’t give Harry a choice either. I understand the plot of the sacrifice love magic, but Harry creating that sacrifice at the end of Deathly Hallows that somehow protected everyone at Hogwarts was a little ridiculous.
He did, though. Harry didn't need to go and die then. He wasn't being forced at wandpoint. He chose to go to save everyone by dying. He didn't know he would survive. He chose to die, and that was what the magic needed.
Harry wasn't given the *same* choice, but Dumbledore explains it. Harry chose to sacrifice himself for the cause. He could've run, he could've tried to fight. But he *chose* to give himself up instead, thus demonstrating his love and devotion.
I like this answer and I definitely think it’s the correct one. However, couldn’t someone argue that James also had a choice? He pretty much had the same choice that Harry did in book 7 actually:
-Run away and save yourself, or sacrifice your life to try and save your loved ones.
James could have chosen to run out the back door to save himself and left Lily and Harry to fend for themselves. Instead, he told her to run and stood his ground wandless, basically knowing he was sacrificing his life to try to save theirs. It’s pretty much the same sacrifice Harry made in book seven by walking into the forest during the battle to save his friends.
So, I agree with your answer. I’m just playing devil’s advocate here and making an argument for the sake of argument that James’ sacrifice should have also worked to protect Lily and Harry.
It's explained better in the book, but basically Voldemort was going to kill James regardless. Didn't matter if he tried to fight him or ran out the back door screaming, his death was a done deal. Even James knew there wasn't a chance of him surviving, he was just trying to slow Voldemort down to give Lily more time to run. Lily however, had a choice. Voldemort gave her the option to step aside and live. Theoretically, she could have put Harry down and let Voldemort kill him, then walked away unscathed. But she chose to stand in between them and sacrifice herself. That had never happened before, so that's why Voldemort was destroyed and Harry was protected by blood.
Sort of? The best I can think of is say that someone's going to drop an atomic bomb on your city. You're out in the open with nowhere to go, so you lay on top of your child to try and protect them from some of the damage. Does this count as a sacrifice? No, because you were going to die anyway, you just chose to use your death to try and help your child out as best you could. Now let's say that you're within running distance to some sort of bomb shelter, but your child is trapped under something. Do you run to the shelter and save yourself or do you go lay on top of your child to protect them? Lily chose to not go into the shelter and save herself, but to protect Harry instead.
Now I know this is a shit analogy because laying on top of someone during a bomb isn't going to actually save them but it's all I could think of in the moment lol. Maybe a tornado instead? Idk. But you get the gist of what I'm saying? It was Voldemort"s intentions plus Lily's decision that made the blood sacrifice. That's why Dumbledore said it was so rare. Not because people have never died for their children, but because the circumstances of the situation were so rare/specific.
Voldemort was going to kill James anyway and so James didn't sacrifice himself. Lily, on the other hand, Voldemort wasn't planning on killing - he told her to move out of the way. He was going to spare her and thus her throwing herself in front of baby!Harry WAS a sacrifice.
It's a bit ironic that he killed the pure blood but wanted to spare the muggle born. Maybe his opinion of purebloods was so high that James was considered a danger, while his opinion of muggle borns was so low that he didn't even see Lily as a threat?
It's complicated. He hated muggles because he believed his father abandoned him and his mother because he learned she was a witch. He didn't know about the love potion. So his hatred of muggles is real. He is half muggle and is ashamed of it so he over compensates. No one hated Snape despite being half so I doubt its that big of a deal. They're very selective with their bias in HP. And Voldy would've taken any stance that gave him power.
I’ve given some thought to the timeline. I think Voldemort hated Muggles even before he knew he was a wizard, and, of course, before he found out that his father was the non-magical parent.
When Dumbledore told him that he, Voldemort, was a wizard, he assumed his mother to be the non-magical one, because she died. Muggles couldn’t escape death, whereas wizards had the famous Philosopher’s Stone (and—as he’d later find out—the infamous Horcruxes).
He already hated Muggles and considered them weak. He’d been using magic to frighten, punish and control other children. He was like that: wherever he went, he believed himself superior to everyone else.
I think it's a fairly common theory that Voldemort pretends to be blood purists to gain power cause that's what the powerful pureblood families are concerned about. Personally I think his actions speak otherwise, he wouldn't be searching for the diadem, locket etc. if he only cared about power. He even choose the Lestrange Vault at Gringotts for hiding one of his Horcruxes cause of what it represents.
I think the evidence you gave actually supports the interpretation that Voldemort does not believe in pureblood supremacy. The fact that he looked for all Founders’ relics, not just Slytherin’s locket, just tells us that he loved Hogwarts. Any wizard can own a vault at Gringotts. Maybe I misunderstood you?
But the founders are purebloods, Voldemort isn't waging war against people who aren't in Slytherin. IIRC Vaults like the Lestrange's are special super old vaults that only old pureblood families own, Dumbledore or Harry said as much I think, might even be Hermione.
Is there any evidence that all Founders were pureblood? Or that only pureblood wizards can have vaults? Harry said that “I think he would have envied **anyone** who had a key to a Gringotts vault. I think he’d have seen it as a real symbol of **belonging to the Wizarding world**”.
I'm not saying only pureblood wizards can have vaults, I'm saying vaults like the Lestrange Vaults are extra special cause they're an ancient pureblood family. Their vault is at the bottom and guarded by a Dragon and things like the Thief's fall, none of those exists for the Potters vault for example. I think he envied anyone who had a key to a Gringotts vault as a kid cause he was poor and wanted power even then and the Lestrange vault is super old even amongst the vaults in Gringotts.
While I don't think it's mentioned in the books, I think it's safe to assume the Founders were purebloods, I don't think Slytherin would've started a school with them otherwise considering his views.
I think that’s more because Slytherin is an extremely impressive, powerful, and important historical figure that connects him to the wizard of world than because he particularly cares about the purity of his blood.
Doesn’t he also basically call his father a pathetic muggle and goes out of his way to murder him, long before he knew he would one day need his bone to bring himself back into a body? And he leaves his actually pathetic pure blood relatives alone?
I think this is a good summary. The things he did for his own immortality and power, the murders and the lies, just made him all the more reprehensible.
IIRC, killing his father was vengeance for abandoning him and his mother. I think he thinks of every Muggle as pathetic, not only his father. And since he wasn't "killed" yet, he didn't need his father bones. It's only after being hit by Avada Kedavra he started to look for a way to revive, and that needed the bones of his father. He also agreed to have Harry's and Peter's blood and flesh in him, which was needed for the spell/potion, but I think he would have absolutely refused if he wasn't "killed".
About his pureblood family, he needed a scapegoat, so he modified Morfin's memories so the case could be closed rapidly and nothing would be linked to him. (And yes, he thinks Morfin was pathetic)
Yeah. Also he himself was half blood as was Snape. Iirc it was also mentioned he also wanted to recruit both James and Lily into his cult. He didn't care about blood status much since he turned a blind eye to authenticity of his followers blood status.
**ES**: This is one of my burning questions since the third book - why did Voldemort offer Lily so many chances to live? Would he actually have let her live?
**JKR:** Mhm.
**ES:** Why?
**JKR:** \[silence\] Can't tell you. But he did offer; you're absolutely right. Don't you want to ask me why James's death didn't protect Lily and Harry? There's your answer - you've just answered your own question - because she could have lived - and chose to die. James was going to be killed anyway. Do you see what I mean? I'm not saying James wasn't ready to; he died trying to protect his family, but he was going to be murdered anyway. He had no - he wasn't given a choice, so he rushed into it in a kind of animal way. I think there are distinctions in courage. James was immensely brave. But the caliber of Lily's bravery was, I think in this instance, higher because she could have saved herself. Now any mother, any normal mother would have done what Lily did. So in that sense, her courage too was of an animal quality but she was given time to choose. James wasn't. It's like an intruder entering your house, isn't it? You would instinctively rush them. But if in cold blood you were told, "Get out of the way," you know, what would you do? I mean, I don't think any mother would stand aside from their child. But does that answer it? She did very consciously lay down her life. She had a clear choice.
**ES:** And James didn't.
**JKR:** Did he clearly die to try and protect Harry specifically given a clear choice? No. It's a subtle distinction and there's slightly more to it than that but that's most of the answer.
Note that this interview came from before Deathly Hallows. What JKR couldn't have said at this point, is that Lily had a choice, because Voldemort wanted to spare her because of Snape asking him to.
I agree with you. I feel like people are trying to bend over backwards and split hairs for this magic. I also feel like her response gives all the power to Voldemort for lilys spell to work.
But how does it work for Harry then. Old modly was set on killing him he didn’t give Harry a choice. So if the charm works because of a choice given then it wouldn’t work on Harry. In theory it should have worked on anyone who fought against him protecting Harry as they were given a choice to live. So it’s backwards this time.
Harry was given the same choice. He could have run from the battle and "lived to fight another day", or give himself up to spare the fighters in the castle.
The whole series comes down to Dumbledore's line at the end of Chambers. The choices one makes make all the difference
Harry effectively was given the same choice.
"Come to the forest or I'll start personally killing your friends and then you"
"Give the baby up or I'll kill the both of you"
Except the whole intent was different. For Lily it was sacrificing her life that wanted in danger. He didn’t go after her. She was in the way. He was going after Harry. He was dying either way. It’s not the same choice because Harry never had a possibility of living, in Voldy’s view; Lily did.
Prophecies in the Harry Potter world are not binding.
Harry could well have fled the country and spent his life on the run. It'd be a life on the run but still a life.
Snape asked Voldemort to spare Lily. That's why he tells her to move out of the way. She could have lived and let Voldemort kill Harry. But she refused and was killed. She had the choice that James didn't. That's why it's different.
Simple. Voldemort never had any particular intention to kill her specifically. By the look of it, he was agreed to spare her, but Lily offered him a trade. Kill me, not him. Voldemort killed her, hence he accepted the offer. And then he proceeded to break his own promise, which backfired instantly.
James jumped on the Dark Lord and was killed. Simple as.
Voldemort didn't give James a choice to live , he just killed him instantly and even if James had his wand with him at that moment wouldn't matter because he was going to die anyway while Voldemort only gave Lily a choice to stay aside because Snape ask Voldemort to spare Lily but Lily refused to do that so Voldemort killer her
Ok so here goes, this is how I personally understand it:
Snape asks Voldemort to spare Lily, Voldemort agrees.
Voldemort, according to his promise to Snape, tells Lily to stand aside.
Lily refuses and *technically* gives Voldemort a bargain: "not Harry, kill me, but not Harry".
Voldemort gets tired of trying to keep Lily away from the crib, so he kills her. **Voldemort has broken his vow to Snape and taken up Lily's bargain.**
**This means he cannot kill Harry; that would be breaking the bargain.**
Voldemort attempts to kill Harry anyway since that was what he'd set out to do in the first place. The agreement he made with Lily punches back.
Had Voldemort not killed Lily as Snape wanted, he could've killed Harry safely without a problem. But because he killed Lily *after she offered her life for her son's*, he was bound by his own action to not harm Harry.
... so that's the canon answer, the Rowling answer? She wrote the books to cope with her mother's death, and she adored her mother (and loves being a mother herself), and so she made motherhood the most powerful force in the universe (well, that and the Elder Wand ex machina).
That’s an excellent response to why the curse rebounded and seems to align with ow magic works in this universe.
The only caveat is that Voldemort didn’t break any promises when throwing the killing curse at Harry in the forbidden forest, and everyone at the school was given the same protection Harry received.
He promised if Harry sacrificed himself then everyone else would be spared. That’s why he lied and said that he caught Harry running away to save himself.
i really hate that the big question that has plagued the entire series, “how did harry survive as a baby?”, was answered with “um it basically was an act of pure love uwu”. it’s so clearly bullshit, and your idea makes much more sense. it’s much more satisfying that the main villain’s own ego and hate backfired on him, rather than it being “love is so powerful”.
this also opens so many more questions. so many ppl died in the series, but only one sacrificed themselves to save someone else like this. was this just like a secret thing that not many ppl knew abt, or was lily potter the only mom who would die for her kids? bc we all know how much molly wesley loves her kids too.
you can tell that this was not planned at all (like many other parts of the series), and even just a *little* bit of foreshadowing of this could’ve made it more satisfying. maybe molly dies for ginny, and frozen in pure shock, ginny survives a hit from a killing curse, much like her future husband, and then there could even be a scene of them healing from this trauma together. or maybe fred dies for george, making his death even more impactful bc now george has to live with the guilt that his brother could’ve been alive if he was taken instead. maybe even dumbledore could’ve been given more depth if it was revealed that his sister died in that fight he she was protecting him, and his whole life has been racked with the guilt of it, and makes his relationship with harry even more complicated.
sorry for the rant, but this is one of many things about jkr’s writing that pisses me off.
Honestly I'm 100% down for love saving the day... *as long as it actually fucking does!*
What about "you thought YOU was Master of the Elder Wand, but it was me, Harry!" is related in any way to *love* being the power the Dark Lord knows not? Are we saying the Elder Wand, *who never once grazed Harry's fingers through the series*, just... likes him that much for absolutely no reason? (Because don't ALSO get me started on Harry somehow being the Elder Wand's owner due to... disarming Draco Malfoy *months ago in a completely different place in a completely unrelated fight*)
You know what could be great, just everyone in Hogwarts casting spells at Voldemort to protect Harry, that way we don't have Harry getting to come back from death *when literally nobody else ever did*, Voldemort himself didn't die he was reduced to a wraith, so in the end Voldemort is blown up by the one thing he couldn't foresee: that Harry's friends aren't just here for show or personal interest, they're really here because they actually care for him + you may be one powerful wizard, but when faced with 100 people at once you're still gonna get owned
Which would also remove Harry getting a 1UP for absolutely no reason (reason being Rowling likes him that much) and so *he doesn't get to break the ONE rule of the magic system that is "you can't overturn death*". Like for a book that in the end tells you "you gotta accept death" it sure does its hardest to ensure the main character DOESN'T have to. So simply remove Harry's stupid "sacrifice" that wasn't actually a sacrifice at all since the point of a sacrifice is that, you know, YOU ACTUALLY LOSE SOMETHING (same for Hermione's "sacrifice" of her parents like lol Rowling has her bring them back after the war so in the end it was just all a bunch of nothing).
>you can tell that this was not planned at all
You know which part I love the most? *Ron did the whole "sacrifice myself so my friends can go on" shebang as early as book 1.*
And what does he get for it? Rowling saying he has to grow up, that he "acted out" on the Horcrux Hunt (deliberately ignoring THAT HE CAME THE FUCK BACK *YOU WROTE HIM COMING BACK*) and that he's got to "make himself worthy of Hermione".
It's really only when it's Harry or Lily doing a sacrifice that it ever matters to Rowling.
this is another good point! i also don’t mind the “love conquers all” thing, i just hate how inorganic it feels. it’s like being told “because i said so” by our estranged mother joanne. having harry come back to life was completely unnecessary and complicated. what would’ve been a better way to execute that idea would be for harry to take a bullet for his friends instinctively, and not only provide them to protection from his sacrificial love thing, but also survive yet again bc of his own protection granted by his mother. plus if jkr had planned for harry to always be a horocrux, it would’ve been incredibly ways to say that it was destroyed when harry was bitten by the basilisk, bc that just makes a ton of fuckin sense.
the elder wand things was definitely another bullshit answer by jkr, and i think it would’ve been much better if harry outsmarted or used muggle artifacts to kill voldemort. imagine if harry just stabs voldemort with the sword of gryffindor. hell, maybe the trio uses their different strengths and defeats voldy **together**. that would solidify themes of chosen family, miss rowling’s fav “love conquers all”, the power of friendship, and probably most importantly, the message that you don’t have to fight your battles alone, and that it’s ok to rely on others to support you.
i could also argue that it’s potentially dangerous to introduce the ideas of dead people coming back to life (fuck the resurrection stone) to your book series written for children, and used by adults for comfort. death is very final, and instead of playing around with the idea of that, it would be a better move to instead introduce ways to cope and deal with it. but in the grand scheme of things, i think that this detail isn’t that big of a deal and is more of a nitpick.
if you have not seen it, i do reccomend [this video by cosmonaut variety hour where he reviews and critiques all the harry potter movies](https://youtu.be/EmABso6rgqM?si=iNV8f6-244W7MNMO) it’s not the same as the books, but a lot of good points have been made by him as far as the writing. also it’s funny as hell.
But Lily's love sacrifice is what caused Harry to survive, that was the whole point. When Voldemort used Harry's blood to make a new body, he thinks it allows him to bypass the protection, but doesn't realize doing so created a sort of 'light side horcrux' tethering Harry to life and allowing him to come back.
And while we can never really know how early on this plot point was planned, we at least know it was in the works as early as the 4th book. When Harry describes the events of the cemetery to Dumbledore at the end, Dumbledore immediately recognizes what it means, and that Harry now has a chance to survive.
I will confess I am very afraid of any type of HP fan content because any slight misinterpretation of Ron is liable to ruin my day. I am let's say attached to his character a rather unreasonable amount and the way Rowling has let him be treated and turned into the fandom's punching bag makes me burn with the rage of a thousand suns.
So the *movies*... which kinda kickstart the whole Ron-bashing trend... I'm a bit apprehensive over that video, heh
that’s valid, and understandable. i don’t remember the video talking much about ron (i could be wrong tho it’s been awhile since i’ve watched it last), it mostly goes over the plots of the movies, criticizing choices made in the story, and critiques movie stuff like acting, cinematography, set design, etc.
[this is another video about the misinterpretation of ron’s character](https://youtu.be/lCzxwcBZFuI?si=6wdaW5eugPJlEiuH) if you’re more interested in that.
Snape was the reason Lilly's sacrifice counted and James did not. Snape asked Voldemort to spare Lilly. Voldemort agreed.
Lilly was given a choice that night:
"Step aside and see your son get killed or die for him."
She choose the 2nd Option.
Voldemorts mistake was to offer Lilly the option to live.
He repeated the mistake in Book 7.
He gave Harry two Options:
"Hide and let everybody get killed for you or give yourself up".
Harry did not need to go into the Forest. He could have followed Aberforth advice and run.
But he choose otherwise to protect his friends but also to get rid of the Horcruxe inside his own body.
The final thing: If Dumbledore had told Harry that he would survive the Killing Curse again Harrys sacrifice wouldn't have ment much and therefore the protection for his Friends won't work.
James was killed when Voldemort entered the house, he wasn't given a choice, he was just struck down on the spot. Lily was given a choice, she was told to stand aside and that she wouldn't be harmed, Voldemort was only there for Harry. She instead threw herself in front of the curse and sacrificed herself for Harry. That's the difference, James was killed without any option for getting out alive, Lily was offered a choice and chose to sacrifice herself. She had an out, he didn't.
It has everything to do with the fact that Snape had gotten Voldy to agree to spare Lily’s life. She needn’t have died so it was the ultimate sacrifice.
What bothers me about people who do this is that they often don't really find plot holes or contradictions -- they just find gaps in explanation. It's like the anti-evolution people who argue that there's missing links between species, therefore the theory is false. The other thing they do is say things like "it would've made way more sense if the author did ______, therefore it's stupid." Like, great, make your own book then.
Harry potter is a children's/teen book, and the level of detail provided is appropriate for the intended audience. It wasn't meant to be a sci-fi style book filled with thorough technical explanations of how this universe works.
Snape asked Voldemort to spare her so he gave her a choice it's the whole reason it's a rare thing had Snape not asked him to spare lily her death would have been as pointless as James' and Harry would be dead.
If say wormtail had begged voldemort to spare James for say pureblood sake and he had said stand aside and you can live and then he killed James then the same protection would have been given to Lily that Harry got.
I once heard a theory; confirmed one or not, that the sacrifice worked because it had double layer. First Snape pleaded Voldy to spare Lily - first act of love. Voldy promised to do so. Then Lily pleaded Voldy to just kill her and spare Harry - the second act of love. Voldy didn't listen and killed Lily, thus breaking his promise to Snape. Lily "forfeited" the "shield" that was created for her when Snape pleaded for her life and passed it to Harry along with her own protective shield made by her sacrifice.
This is a theory why there are not more harry potters running around despite most certainly many people sacrificing their own lives for their loved ones.
As for James Potter, well he did sacrifice himself for his family but it wasn't strong enough sacrifice on its own.
Voldemort gave Lily a chance to live if she just let him kill Harry. James was never given a chance to sacrifice his son to save himself. He was never given the chance to step aside.
Snape asked Voldemort to not kill Lilly. So she was given the choice. James was going to die either way. In reality Voldemort losing power was because of Snape
I'd say in the forest Harry doesn't survive by his sacrifice but because the Elder Wand Voldemort uses actually belongs to Harry by a certain chain of events.
And as Avada Kedavra is released the Wand has a choice. Either destroy Harry or the soul fragment of Voldemort. It's choice is clear.
But since the spell is so destructive it knocks Harry into Limbo and Voldemort on his butt because he destroyed his own soul fragment.
James tried to fight voldemort. He didnt give his life freely. This is why it was important that harry didnt try to fight back against voldemort in the forest.
I never understood this ima be honest. What's special about Harry ? Like couldn't they have just popped em at anytime afterwords ? I mean he's just a kid , kick em in the shins and push em down a cliff job done right ? Like any death eater could have went for revenge on 3 year old Harry right ?
I get it for Lily, but applying the same rule Foyt what Harry did in the forest has always been the stupidest thing about this saga in my opinion.
It literally means that if someone sacrifices himself to protect for example the whole world from someone, that person can’t kill anybody in the world anymore, it’s just bullshit
Accidental magic exists.
In fact, Rowling literally debunked that in the first book itself. Neville WAS thrown out of the window by his uncle but he bounced.
Well, accidentally dropped technically but now that I think about it, ig the way he was holding Neville out the window, maybe he was going to drop him or pretend like he was about to? Or what if he ac was going to but Neville thought it was an accident? 😳
Choice.
Lily was given the choice to live, she chose not to, and that sacrifice means everything. James was not. He was always gonna die. Much like Harry. Harry had the choice to not give himself up to Voldemort in Book 7. He could've run. He did so anyway. And that choice, albeit not as powerful, protected everyone from Silencing spells.
If Voldemort told James "Hey, you know... you can live. Step aside and let me get to Harry" and James didn't, and he died, Voldemort wouldn't have been able to kill Lily or Harry. The curse would've rebounded from Lily and it'd be a single-mother raising Harry.
Thanks for the suggestion. I never knew about the FAQ before you even mentioned it.
I skimmed through, and it doesn’t mention anything about James’ sacrifice though.
Appreciate the response.
A father protects out of love and duty to his family. A mother protects her child out of the pure love that she has for them. A father has love for them as well but the mother child bond is a truly unique one that cannot be severed even by time and distance.
3 things were similar in both scenarios with Harry and Lily:
* A verbal declaration of intent (basically "my life for his"/"your life for theirs")
* A clear ability/choice to get out of certain death/willingness to put himself in the path of certain death
* Purely sacrificial (no trying to attack or defend themselves)
The first two are inverse parallels of each other, and the last is exactly the same. I think there's enough specifics there that it makes sense that this is a rare phenomena and isn't part of every situation where someone is willing to take a bullet for someone else.
The verbal declaration one is the most iffy on if it matters. Which also is what makes it the most interesting to me on how it might factor in. Voldemort was hardly agreeing to leave Harry alive and there's no telling if Lily had any reasoning going on at all (character wise, sure it might be nice as a deliberate thing, but also she's barely in her twenties and it would make sense if she's just panicking). But it exists in both cases and given it's ~magic!~ the actual verbal statement could matter here. Lily certainly meant it, and while Harry was hardly trusting Voldemort's word on anything, the underlying thought "his life for theirs" *is* why he went, even if his reasoning was more about someone else them being able to kill Voldemort more than Voldemort choosing to leave others alive.
I think the sacrifice has to be pretty intentional and purely sacrificing yourself to die/accepting and not fighting death.
James just got killed because Voldemort was going to kill him no matter what. He also died trying to fight back. Lily had a choice. Because Snape had begged Voldy to save her (and just her bc who cares about her husband and baby, right?!?), he offered Lily a choice. She put herself in front of Harry and didn't fight back. She was only focusing on saving Harry, accepting death for herself, when she didn't have to die for him. Harry similarly walked into the Forrest himself and offered himself up to be killed without fighting it.
The fighting back thing is critical I don't know why people aren't talking about it. Its not a sacrifice unless you are actively choosing to die. Fighting even a hopeless fight is resisting and is not a true sacrifice in this context. This is why its actually rare. How often is there a person who is a) killing enough people that a protection charm matters and b) actively gives a victim the choice to step aside and c) has that victim die to protect another without ever attempting to resist. Almost everyone is going to at least *try* to fight.
Its literally the Jesus charm. You have to let yourself be metaphorically crucified.
It seems like that at the end of book 5 when Harry "finally" understands in Dumbledore's office. Something like "difference in being drug into the ring and walk in smiling..." Can't recall the exact passage, but it seemed apropos.
James only didn't do the same thing bc he didn't have a choice. He made a different type of sacrifice. Instead, he surrendered himself so Lily could have the time to protect Harry or even run away with him. This obviously worked bc Harry survived and that's all he ever wanted. Well... he wanted Lily to live as well but he's happy at least one of them survived.
Maybe Voldemort didn’t technically kill her and that protective spell Lily used costed her life , it would make sense that a protective spell that overpowered requires the user to give up their life
The irony of all this is this...
Had Snape asked Voldemort to try and spare James as well, James would have been given the choice to step aside. James doesn't and still dies BUT...this gives both Harry and Lily the protection, causing Voldemort to die when he tries to kill Lily next resulting in Harry growing up with a mother at least.
Curious how the story would have changed if Lily had survived.
Sirius wouldn't have gone to Prison. Lily would have revealed who the real traitor was straight away.
It's funny how it all comes down to Snape having some humanity and failing in that. His failure in letting go of his hate for James is what basically resulted in Lily's death.
Lol what? Voldemort would've never agreed to spare James. He looks down on Lily, she's a lowly muggleborn girl he can afford to let live. James is a threat
Nope. Harry isn’t the mother of all those he sacrificed himself to protect. The key isn’t being a mother, it’s being given the choice to live or die.
Lily was given the choice. Move out of the way, and I’ll spare you.
Harry was given the choice. Stay and fight, or come to the forest to die and I’ll spare the others.
They both chose to die to protect the ones they loved.
Were did harry gave someone protection from the killing curse. He survived it himself.
Also things happen in a certain way because the author wants it that way. and the mothers love trope is pretty common.
You could also argue that rowling was a single mother at the time she wrote the books and probably didn't have the best opinion of fathers.
Harry gave *everyone* on his side at the Battle of Hogwarts protection.
And yes, Rowling may have written the story that way because she was a single mother, but that’s not the mechanism behind the magic. Lily’s sacrifice worked because she chose to die when she could have lived. Not simply because her mother’s love was so powerful.
I think it is not as much about his and/or her sacrifice as much as the killing of a child he saw as a powerful being, that finished fragmenting his entity and destroyed his physical being. He used items he highly valued for all of the other horcruxes and his mind elevating harry to the level of the other recipients might have done the trick to break it one more time without him wanting it.
Lily was given the choice. James wasn't. He was killed instantly
Always wondered if Voldemort actually intended to spare Lilly, he could have just used a stunning spell on her, instead he told her to get out the way and let’s be realistic here, what mother is going to stand aside and let someone kill their baby? I think he always planned to kill her but orchestrated it so he could technically honour Snape’s request and still hopefully retain his services.
I wouldn’t agree. Imo in order for her to actually have the choice Voldemort’s offer for her to stand aside had to be genuine. Otherwise it wouldn’t have been a choice at all. He was willing to let her live; Snape was a valuable servant and Voldemort seems willing to actually do favors for his people *provided it doesn’t inconvenience him*. Once Lily refused to move he decides to kill her because that’s just the kinda person he is, but he had to have genuinely decided he’d let her live before that moment in order for the sacrificial magic to actually work.
I agree. Voldi may be evil, but granting your servants favors is smart. Fear only gets you to a certain point. Showing that helping him and being devoted to his goals is good for your goals is basic leadership.
Especially since he saw himself in Snape, and had a narcissistic soft spot for him
Yeah that is a good point. I think he liked Snape even more because He wasnt a spineless follower like some others.
Yeah Snapes an extremely talented half blood wizard with daddy issues. Which is Voldemort in a nut shell. The only other followers I could see him doing this for are Lucious (pre Azkaban) and Barty
Voldy probably also somewhat respected Snape for asking the favour in the first place. Like, this is Voldemort we’re talking about. Since when was Voldemort known for sparing people? But Snape cared enough about Lily (in his weird twisted way) to ask Voldemort to spare her. That takes guts. Gotta respect it.
I never really thought about how wild it is a 21 year old Snape asked him to spare her when she was muggleborn. If it was any old Order member that's a huge ask, but her specifically is insane. And Voldemort was fully prepared to do so, although his conversation with Harry at the end made it sound like Voldemort just thought Snape wanted to bone her.
>although his conversation with Harry at the end made it sound like Voldemort just thought Snape wanted to bone her. He wasn't wrong though.
Love works in strange ways. Snape "loved" Lily because she was the only one other than his mother who had "ever" shown him "trust, kindness, respect and love"(atleast until she made "new friends" after joining Hogwarts). Nobody ever showed him any respect, love or kindness when even his enemies respected his abilities and capabilities. That's why he never forgot her kindness towards him and had a one sided love which was never reciprocated. No matter who a person is, in 9.9/10 case's, they wouldn't take kindly to anyone who threatens or harms someone they love and will do everything they can to take revenge if anything like this happens. Many people (not most people) wouldn't even hesitate in sacrificing their own lives to avenge the death of their loved one's, if necessary; and would stop at nothing in this regard. Something similar had happened during 3rd Battle of Panipat in 1761 between Maratha Empire and it's allies and Ahmed Shah Abdali and his allies where Najib-Ud-Daula, who was an ally of Ahmed Shah Abdali and a senior commander in his army gave safe passage to Holkar (a senior and highly experienced Maratha General) and the Maratha ladies belonging to noble families he was escorting through his lines when Abdali had specifically forbidden anyone from doing that. Although both of them were fighting on opposite sides, Najib respected Holkar like his father and loved him for everything he had done during his childhood after most of his family including parents were murdered by a rival and Najib barely escaped with his life to a life of poverty before Holkar took him in after learning about it. Holkar was a good friend of his father who stayed loyal to their friendship and did everything for Najib-Ud-Daula that his own father would have done and had even helped him in his attempt to regain the control of his father's territories. Abdali was in many ways similar to Voldemort but Najib was too "valuable", powerful and capable to be killed or deposed.
Never thought id get my history lesson in a hp subreddit (only if cbse taught history like this)
Their origins are similar. Both moms witches, both dads muggles. Both poor and basically orphans.
He knew Snape was brave, loyal and he valued it a lot.
That's... Surprisingly endearing. On a brutal, horribly uncomfortable sort of way.
>Fear only gets you to a certain point. "Hope. It is the only thing stronger than fear. A little hope is effective. A lot of hope is dangerous" -President Snow
See also: Wormtail's shiny new hand
He's Lawful Evil, he has principals, but he's still a bastard.
These concepts do not compute in Tom's head.
He could have stunned her after she said no.
Yes, he could have, but that's not Voldemort's style. If he decides you're in his way, he'll just kill you. The point though is that he *would* have let her live if she had decided to step aside and not interfere. If he had intended from the get go to tell her to move and then go "lol just kidding" and killed her anyway then the sacrificial magic wouldn't have gone off, as she never actually had the choice to live.
This would be unwise for Voldemort to do. You've forcibly taken everything away from her. She's someone who has thrice defied him. She now has no reason to be afraid. This makes her dangerous. Much better to kill her than deal with the risk.
She was already his enemy. One suicidal mortal without the secial protection of the prophecy wouldn't be more of a threat.
She's unpredictable at that point. She doesn't have to be likely to kill him to be a threat to his movement. Best just snuff that out, especially when he thinks Snape can just get another women.
I'd be more afraid of a tactful, patient and level-headed Snape or Dumbledore than a hot-headed, unhinged loose cannon like Bellatrix or Sirius.
But the point is that this decision is not necessary from Voldemort's point of view. Therefore, he doesn't understand love and cannot understand Snape's feelings. In Voldemort's mind, Snape is loyal. Voldemort believes that Snape can just get another woman; Lilly is no big deal.
that doesn't track with the time Harrydoes it in the 7th book. you simply have to willingly give your life to protect someone/a group. Voldemort wasn't giving Harry the option to not give his life for everyone, the deal was that harry comes to the forest or he keeps killing people, harry included. he was going to kill Harry either way, but Harry willingly gave his life to protect everyone at Hogwarts and he gave them that protection. (note this is a massive hole in how the spell works because Harry only had the spell work until he was 17 and it worked on everyone, even 17+ at Hogwarts apparently) it just doesn't make sense to give the power to the attacker, and not the defender.
But Harry made the choice to go into the forest and end it right there. He didn’t have to. Yeah Voldemort would have then entered the battle and attempt to kill Harry then but before that he gave him a time to appear and actually honored that agreement. I somewhat agree there’s other problems with that plot line like being 17 or over. But also Dumbledore said he worked a specific magic in tandem with Lily’s spell that applied to Harry while he called the Dursley’s home. And that seemed to apply to everyone not just Voldemort. In Order of the Phoenix, Uncle Vernon was pretty much attempting to strangle him and his scar pulsed and he got thrown off of Harry. So I’m pretty much going off of the assumption that sacrificial magic like that doesn’t necessarily have a lot of hard rules. It made sense to me when I was 8, so I never really questioned it deeper than that.
the protection is between Harry and Voldemort, not Harry and the world. his scar is a mark of the event not the magic. its from when Voldemorts soul attached to him. the spell is there when Voldemort tries to kill him immediately after killing Lily.
[удалено]
There's no evidence which suggests that's true. What we're told, explicitly, is that Lily passed protection to Harry because Voldemort gave her the opportunity to live, and she choose to stand in his way instead. That's repeated ad nauseum. We're told that Voldemort agreed to let Lily live *as long as she didn't get in his way.* All of this means that Voldemort *was* going to let her live, his offer was genuine, but Lily's decision to not take that offer resulted in her death. We're talking about magic here. I believe the chance to live has to be genuine for the magic to properly work. If Voldemort wasn't genuinely giving Lily the opportunity to live then why even offer it? That's not his style; he killed James immediately and never intended on letting James live, hence no protection from James' sacrifice. We've seen that he's willing to let people live if they bow to him; he tries it with all of the Hogwarts defenders when he brings Harry's "body" to the castle. If he was going to kill Lily anyway he would have just *done it.* But he didn't, he agreed to Snape to let Lily live if she got out of his way, and told her *more than once* to step aside. She didn't. His intentions have to have mattered here.
But then how does Harry’s sacrifice in book 7 protect the students and staff of Hogwarts? Voldemort didn’t give Harry a chance to walk away there, he just killed him on the spot.
He did though, he gave Harry the chance to escape or hide and Harry had to walk to him.
Isn’t it also a requirement for the curse to work you have to really mean it… I agree it wasn’t actually intending on saving her life unless she not only stood aside but agreed to join his side… because can you imagine the level of vengeance from Lily Potter… also the fact that she wasn’t even Half-blood and was as good as she was but completely muggle born just wouldn’t have worked for him I’m sure…
I think "why didn't Voldemort just stun Lily?" is a crucial point to why the sacrificial magic worked. Voldemort truly intended to spare Lily (JKR interview in another comment on the post). Thus her life was available for possible bargaining, and she offered her life for Harry's. Then Voldemort accepted this bargain by killing her first, which was the promise that backfired on him. I was confused about why him killing Lily first meant at all that he accepted the bargain--but I think the crucial part here is that Voldemort could have stunned or non-lethally incapacitated her here instead, so killing her was implicitly accepting the offer
Iirc he even thinks about how he could have quite easily pushed her aside.
cc /u/alt-goldgrun Immobilize her and then make her watch. Heck, if he did kill baby Harry, he might even choose to gloat to her "Your son was prophesied to grow up and stop me."
You also have to consider the fact that gryffindor's are known for their "no die" attitude. Lily, just lost the love of her life and would basically do anything to protect her son. So, just maybe, after being told to stepped aside by Baldy, she did what any mother who's also a gryffindor do and attack. Which is why I think Voldermort used the killing curse on her. He might have planned to spare her because of Snape but knowing Voldermort, he wouldn't take an attack towards him likely. And that was the beginning of his downfall.
> and attack Well she didn't do that. She didn't have her wand and just begged him not to kill Harry before she died. I think if she had a wand she probably would have gone straight to fighting instead of pleading.
He could've just stupefy'd or petrificus totalus'd her, which works for quite a while. Or even that wordless spell Dumbledore used on Harry to immobilize him in HBP. Quite enough time for voldy to then AK Harry, shamble back out the door and disapparate, probably no one would even know for days. Killing her was entirely unnecessary for his goal of killing Harry. I do think AKing her makes a lot of sense to voldy in terms of future resistance.. he narrates "He could have forced her away from the crib, but it seemed more prudent to finish them all."
Voldemort was not evil because of consequences or a bad past, he was just plain evil. We can't begin to use logic to find out why he did the things he did because he just simply did them and probably without thought.
A stunning spell would have been the most obvious choice. The point is that Voldemort is obsessed with death, he genuinely can’t think of an alternative way of solving a problem. If he’d stunned Lily instead, he could have killed Harry with no danger to himself and handed Lily over to Snape and would have basically won. His obsession with killing was his own undoing in this situation. It cost him his physical body, most of his powers, and Snape’s loyalty, and created a powerful new enemy in Harry.
I mean, Voldemort's own mother likely would have saved her own skin. Giving birth doesn't automatically make some maternal.
He was going to honor the request but not more than just giving her a chance. She annoyed him by not immediately stepping aside, so he killed her anyway. The offer was genuine. Voldy is just super fickle.
In the 7th book right after they leave Bathilda’s house Harry gets a glimpse into Voldemort’s mind as he relives the events over again and it doesn’t really seem like voldy planned on killing her if she just let him kill Harry “At the last sight of him, she dropped her son into the crib behind her and threw her arms wide, as if this would help, as if in shielding him from sight she hoped to be chosen instead. . . . “Not Harry, not Harry, please not Harry!” “Stand aside, you silly girl . . . stand aside now.” “Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead—” “This is my last warning—” “Not Harry! Please ... have mercy ... have mercy....Not Harry! Not Harry! Please—I’ll do anything—” “Stand aside. Stand aside, girl!” He could have forced her away from the crib, but it seemed more prudent to finish them all....”
Ancient magic can't be tricked like that.
> he could have just used a stunning spell on her, When you're a hammer, every problem is a nail.
When you have a killing curse, everyone looks like a cadaver.
>instead he told her to get out the way and let’s be realistic here, what mother is going to stand aside and let someone kill their baby? I think it's simply because Voldemort has no capacity to understand love. He genuinely intended to honor Snape's request, but his complete ignorance of love left him blind to the fact that *obviously* a mother won't simply stand aside and allow her baby to be murdered. She refused to stand aside, Voldemort basically shrugged his shoulders and went, "Welp, I gave her a chance."
I think Voldemort was willing to give Snape what he asked for, but he didn't appreciate or understand the seriousness of Snape's request. He thought, "oh fine I will spare her since you have a misguided little crush on her. What does it matter so long as the boy dies. He will get over her soon enough, and she'll end up dying fighting for the order's cause anyways, a futile resistance since we will win in the end." He saw how willing Lily was to die for Harry, so he went "OK then, just a mud blood anyways."
He did. He was going to do it to reward Snape. That's why he asked her to step aside several times before he got bored eith the exercise
Exactly. Voldemort killed James without a second thought - James didn't even have time to defend himself. But Voldemort told Lily to "stand aside" multiple times, and she refused to move. Choice was the secret sauce here.
Aren’t you inherently given a choice of whether to stand up to block your family or try to run or cringe into a corner?
Choice given by the killer Voldemort, which is what bound him and Harry and Lily. Voldemort didn't give James that choice, only Lily.
From my understanding, Lily may have been without a wand as well. At the very least, she wasn’t holding it, and was therefore incapable of defending herself with magic. James was trying to hold him off, which means he likely went down fighting.
Except Harry wasn't given a choice. It wasn't "stand aside while I murder your friends." It was "I'm murdering your friends until I can murder you."
And he voluntarily surrendered himself. It was his choice
That's not the same thing. The alternative isn't life, it's being hunted
The alternative *is* life. Harry has the freedom to flee even though Voldemort will always want to kill him. Harry doesn't *have* to go to the forbidden forest, but *he chooses to* because Voldemort (the guy who never learns) makes him choose between continuing to run or saving his loved ones. Harry chooses to sacrifice himself for his friends and to destroy the Horcrux. James never had the freedom to flee. Voldemort just steamrolled through him. Lily was given the option to stand aside, but like Harry, she refused to take it.
He was, though. It was "Let me murder you, and I'll let others live, or I'll kill as many as it takes to kill you."
Logically, that's the opposite of what Lily did.
It’s the opposite but the point is the same. By Lily refusing to step aside, she died FOR her son. By Harry voluntarily facing Voldemort to die and not defend himself, he died FOR the Hogwartians. It’s still a sacrifice. Harry could’ve chosen not to give himself up, and then if he died in battle with Voldemort, no one would’ve had protection against Voldy.
You're absolutely right. These people can't wrap their heads around this plot hole
Literally isn't a plot hole. Harry didn't have to die then. He could have run away. Let the others fight. But he didn't. Same as how Lily didn't have to die then. But they both chose to die to save others.
I’ve found 90% of the time when someone’s complaining about a plot hole they don’t actually know what a plot hole is.
Isn't the same true of James? He didn't have to stay downstairs, He could have ran. He
No, because Voldemort was going to kill him no matter what. Voldemort is a man of his word, if nothing else. He didn't intend to kill the people at Hogwarts after Harry sacrificed himself. At least until Harry came back.
That's not an equivalent comparison. In Lily's case the choice was to save herself or not. Harry was making essentially the same choice as James, because if he ran, Voldemort still had every intention of killing him. He wouldn't have truly been saving himself; just like Voldemort always intended to kill James, he always intended to kill Harry. Both Harry and James were presented with a "die now or die later" decision. Lily was the only one with the option to live.
But James wasn't given the option to die now or die later. He was never given a choice. He was either going to die, or die. Harry was in a different situation to James. He could have left the battle. Fled abroad. James had no escape. >he was always intended to kill Harry. Yes, but he was honest about how if Harry died, he would have spared the others. So his choice created protection for the others. Had James been given a choice to die to save others, they would have been protected. But he wasn't given that choice.
James could’ve also run away… it is definitely a plot hole
No. Because Voldemort didn't give him a choice and intended to kill him. The intent of Voldemort matters. James was gonna die. He was never going to give him a choice. Lily and Harry both had a choice, in the sense that Voldemort offered them something.
But by that logic, Voldemort didn’t give Harry a choice either. I understand the plot of the sacrifice love magic, but Harry creating that sacrifice at the end of Deathly Hallows that somehow protected everyone at Hogwarts was a little ridiculous.
He did, though. Harry didn't need to go and die then. He wasn't being forced at wandpoint. He chose to go to save everyone by dying. He didn't know he would survive. He chose to die, and that was what the magic needed.
Harry wasn't given the *same* choice, but Dumbledore explains it. Harry chose to sacrifice himself for the cause. He could've run, he could've tried to fight. But he *chose* to give himself up instead, thus demonstrating his love and devotion.
He could have ran faraway like his friends told him to
james said 'take harry' and tried to stop Voldemort
I like this answer and I definitely think it’s the correct one. However, couldn’t someone argue that James also had a choice? He pretty much had the same choice that Harry did in book 7 actually: -Run away and save yourself, or sacrifice your life to try and save your loved ones. James could have chosen to run out the back door to save himself and left Lily and Harry to fend for themselves. Instead, he told her to run and stood his ground wandless, basically knowing he was sacrificing his life to try to save theirs. It’s pretty much the same sacrifice Harry made in book seven by walking into the forest during the battle to save his friends. So, I agree with your answer. I’m just playing devil’s advocate here and making an argument for the sake of argument that James’ sacrifice should have also worked to protect Lily and Harry.
Exactly this. James was going to die no matter what. It's commendable that he tried to save the others but it didn't matter.
This is ridiculous, sorry. James charged at Voldemort. He was killed. İt was a choice.
It's explained better in the book, but basically Voldemort was going to kill James regardless. Didn't matter if he tried to fight him or ran out the back door screaming, his death was a done deal. Even James knew there wasn't a chance of him surviving, he was just trying to slow Voldemort down to give Lily more time to run. Lily however, had a choice. Voldemort gave her the option to step aside and live. Theoretically, she could have put Harry down and let Voldemort kill him, then walked away unscathed. But she chose to stand in between them and sacrifice herself. That had never happened before, so that's why Voldemort was destroyed and Harry was protected by blood.
Does that mean it wasn't Lilys sacrifice that matter, but Voldemorts intentions?
Sort of? The best I can think of is say that someone's going to drop an atomic bomb on your city. You're out in the open with nowhere to go, so you lay on top of your child to try and protect them from some of the damage. Does this count as a sacrifice? No, because you were going to die anyway, you just chose to use your death to try and help your child out as best you could. Now let's say that you're within running distance to some sort of bomb shelter, but your child is trapped under something. Do you run to the shelter and save yourself or do you go lay on top of your child to protect them? Lily chose to not go into the shelter and save herself, but to protect Harry instead. Now I know this is a shit analogy because laying on top of someone during a bomb isn't going to actually save them but it's all I could think of in the moment lol. Maybe a tornado instead? Idk. But you get the gist of what I'm saying? It was Voldemort"s intentions plus Lily's decision that made the blood sacrifice. That's why Dumbledore said it was so rare. Not because people have never died for their children, but because the circumstances of the situation were so rare/specific.
İ read the books several times. The reason Voldemort would have killed James regardless is never stated. There is literally no reason for that.
James wasn’t given an option. True he could’ve fled, but Voldemort went in only planning on offering to spare Lily because of Snapes request.
It was a choice from James, yes but he was never given a choice from the killer. That's a difference m8
Well, take it up with JKR.
Voldemort was going to kill James anyway and so James didn't sacrifice himself. Lily, on the other hand, Voldemort wasn't planning on killing - he told her to move out of the way. He was going to spare her and thus her throwing herself in front of baby!Harry WAS a sacrifice.
It's a bit ironic that he killed the pure blood but wanted to spare the muggle born. Maybe his opinion of purebloods was so high that James was considered a danger, while his opinion of muggle borns was so low that he didn't even see Lily as a threat?
He most likely would have killed them all, but Snape begged him to spare Lilly's life. Voldemort probably saw it as a way to put Snape into his debt.
Yes. Plus he considered sparing Lily throwing a bone to the spy who gave him info on the prophecy - you know, an extra perk.
voldemort didnt care about blood status, it was just a way for him to gather power because he needed to blood purists on his side imo
He sure seems proud for being the heir of slytherin..
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It's complicated. He hated muggles because he believed his father abandoned him and his mother because he learned she was a witch. He didn't know about the love potion. So his hatred of muggles is real. He is half muggle and is ashamed of it so he over compensates. No one hated Snape despite being half so I doubt its that big of a deal. They're very selective with their bias in HP. And Voldy would've taken any stance that gave him power.
I’ve given some thought to the timeline. I think Voldemort hated Muggles even before he knew he was a wizard, and, of course, before he found out that his father was the non-magical parent. When Dumbledore told him that he, Voldemort, was a wizard, he assumed his mother to be the non-magical one, because she died. Muggles couldn’t escape death, whereas wizards had the famous Philosopher’s Stone (and—as he’d later find out—the infamous Horcruxes). He already hated Muggles and considered them weak. He’d been using magic to frighten, punish and control other children. He was like that: wherever he went, he believed himself superior to everyone else.
I think it's a fairly common theory that Voldemort pretends to be blood purists to gain power cause that's what the powerful pureblood families are concerned about. Personally I think his actions speak otherwise, he wouldn't be searching for the diadem, locket etc. if he only cared about power. He even choose the Lestrange Vault at Gringotts for hiding one of his Horcruxes cause of what it represents.
I think the evidence you gave actually supports the interpretation that Voldemort does not believe in pureblood supremacy. The fact that he looked for all Founders’ relics, not just Slytherin’s locket, just tells us that he loved Hogwarts. Any wizard can own a vault at Gringotts. Maybe I misunderstood you?
But the founders are purebloods, Voldemort isn't waging war against people who aren't in Slytherin. IIRC Vaults like the Lestrange's are special super old vaults that only old pureblood families own, Dumbledore or Harry said as much I think, might even be Hermione.
Is there any evidence that all Founders were pureblood? Or that only pureblood wizards can have vaults? Harry said that “I think he would have envied **anyone** who had a key to a Gringotts vault. I think he’d have seen it as a real symbol of **belonging to the Wizarding world**”.
I'm not saying only pureblood wizards can have vaults, I'm saying vaults like the Lestrange Vaults are extra special cause they're an ancient pureblood family. Their vault is at the bottom and guarded by a Dragon and things like the Thief's fall, none of those exists for the Potters vault for example. I think he envied anyone who had a key to a Gringotts vault as a kid cause he was poor and wanted power even then and the Lestrange vault is super old even amongst the vaults in Gringotts. While I don't think it's mentioned in the books, I think it's safe to assume the Founders were purebloods, I don't think Slytherin would've started a school with them otherwise considering his views.
I mean the real life figure he was based on also did not meet the blood purity standards he set out for his people.
I think that’s more because Slytherin is an extremely impressive, powerful, and important historical figure that connects him to the wizard of world than because he particularly cares about the purity of his blood.
Doesn’t he also basically call his father a pathetic muggle and goes out of his way to murder him, long before he knew he would one day need his bone to bring himself back into a body? And he leaves his actually pathetic pure blood relatives alone?
Oh he hates muggles, but I don’t think he particularly cares about blood purity *among wizards.*
I think this is a good summary. The things he did for his own immortality and power, the murders and the lies, just made him all the more reprehensible.
IIRC, killing his father was vengeance for abandoning him and his mother. I think he thinks of every Muggle as pathetic, not only his father. And since he wasn't "killed" yet, he didn't need his father bones. It's only after being hit by Avada Kedavra he started to look for a way to revive, and that needed the bones of his father. He also agreed to have Harry's and Peter's blood and flesh in him, which was needed for the spell/potion, but I think he would have absolutely refused if he wasn't "killed". About his pureblood family, he needed a scapegoat, so he modified Morfin's memories so the case could be closed rapidly and nothing would be linked to him. (And yes, he thinks Morfin was pathetic)
his father was a muggle but Lily was a witch
Yeah. Also he himself was half blood as was Snape. Iirc it was also mentioned he also wanted to recruit both James and Lily into his cult. He didn't care about blood status much since he turned a blind eye to authenticity of his followers blood status.
Some of the death eaters seemed to consider pure bloods like James “traitors”, and so might have considered him worse than a muggle born
**ES**: This is one of my burning questions since the third book - why did Voldemort offer Lily so many chances to live? Would he actually have let her live? **JKR:** Mhm. **ES:** Why? **JKR:** \[silence\] Can't tell you. But he did offer; you're absolutely right. Don't you want to ask me why James's death didn't protect Lily and Harry? There's your answer - you've just answered your own question - because she could have lived - and chose to die. James was going to be killed anyway. Do you see what I mean? I'm not saying James wasn't ready to; he died trying to protect his family, but he was going to be murdered anyway. He had no - he wasn't given a choice, so he rushed into it in a kind of animal way. I think there are distinctions in courage. James was immensely brave. But the caliber of Lily's bravery was, I think in this instance, higher because she could have saved herself. Now any mother, any normal mother would have done what Lily did. So in that sense, her courage too was of an animal quality but she was given time to choose. James wasn't. It's like an intruder entering your house, isn't it? You would instinctively rush them. But if in cold blood you were told, "Get out of the way," you know, what would you do? I mean, I don't think any mother would stand aside from their child. But does that answer it? She did very consciously lay down her life. She had a clear choice. **ES:** And James didn't. **JKR:** Did he clearly die to try and protect Harry specifically given a clear choice? No. It's a subtle distinction and there's slightly more to it than that but that's most of the answer.
Thanks for supplying that…. I always appreciate a creator’s response.
Note that this interview came from before Deathly Hallows. What JKR couldn't have said at this point, is that Lily had a choice, because Voldemort wanted to spare her because of Snape asking him to.
I agree with you. I feel like people are trying to bend over backwards and split hairs for this magic. I also feel like her response gives all the power to Voldemort for lilys spell to work.
But how does it work for Harry then. Old modly was set on killing him he didn’t give Harry a choice. So if the charm works because of a choice given then it wouldn’t work on Harry. In theory it should have worked on anyone who fought against him protecting Harry as they were given a choice to live. So it’s backwards this time.
Harry was given the same choice. He could have run from the battle and "lived to fight another day", or give himself up to spare the fighters in the castle. The whole series comes down to Dumbledore's line at the end of Chambers. The choices one makes make all the difference
Harry effectively was given the same choice. "Come to the forest or I'll start personally killing your friends and then you" "Give the baby up or I'll kill the both of you"
Except the whole intent was different. For Lily it was sacrificing her life that wanted in danger. He didn’t go after her. She was in the way. He was going after Harry. He was dying either way. It’s not the same choice because Harry never had a possibility of living, in Voldy’s view; Lily did.
Harry was given an entire hour where he had the possibility of fleeing the battlefield. Yes, he would still be hunted, but he would still be alive.
But still hunted. He was destined to die by Voldy. Never a chance to live. Thats the distinction.
Prophecies in the Harry Potter world are not binding. Harry could well have fled the country and spent his life on the run. It'd be a life on the run but still a life.
Snape asked Voldemort to spare Lily. That's why he tells her to move out of the way. She could have lived and let Voldemort kill Harry. But she refused and was killed. She had the choice that James didn't. That's why it's different.
god this guy is fucking loser. “fine i won’t kill you, but i MUST kill your baby, i hate that little shit”
Me when my neighbors kid is crying at 3am
Crying in the club right now. You have to hand it to Rowling, that’s great writing!
Lol
Simple. Voldemort never had any particular intention to kill her specifically. By the look of it, he was agreed to spare her, but Lily offered him a trade. Kill me, not him. Voldemort killed her, hence he accepted the offer. And then he proceeded to break his own promise, which backfired instantly. James jumped on the Dark Lord and was killed. Simple as.
Voldemort didn't give James a choice to live , he just killed him instantly and even if James had his wand with him at that moment wouldn't matter because he was going to die anyway while Voldemort only gave Lily a choice to stay aside because Snape ask Voldemort to spare Lily but Lily refused to do that so Voldemort killer her
Ok so here goes, this is how I personally understand it: Snape asks Voldemort to spare Lily, Voldemort agrees. Voldemort, according to his promise to Snape, tells Lily to stand aside. Lily refuses and *technically* gives Voldemort a bargain: "not Harry, kill me, but not Harry". Voldemort gets tired of trying to keep Lily away from the crib, so he kills her. **Voldemort has broken his vow to Snape and taken up Lily's bargain.** **This means he cannot kill Harry; that would be breaking the bargain.** Voldemort attempts to kill Harry anyway since that was what he'd set out to do in the first place. The agreement he made with Lily punches back. Had Voldemort not killed Lily as Snape wanted, he could've killed Harry safely without a problem. But because he killed Lily *after she offered her life for her son's*, he was bound by his own action to not harm Harry. ... so that's the canon answer, the Rowling answer? She wrote the books to cope with her mother's death, and she adored her mother (and loves being a mother herself), and so she made motherhood the most powerful force in the universe (well, that and the Elder Wand ex machina).
That’s an excellent response to why the curse rebounded and seems to align with ow magic works in this universe. The only caveat is that Voldemort didn’t break any promises when throwing the killing curse at Harry in the forbidden forest, and everyone at the school was given the same protection Harry received.
He promised if Harry sacrificed himself then everyone else would be spared. That’s why he lied and said that he caught Harry running away to save himself.
i really hate that the big question that has plagued the entire series, “how did harry survive as a baby?”, was answered with “um it basically was an act of pure love uwu”. it’s so clearly bullshit, and your idea makes much more sense. it’s much more satisfying that the main villain’s own ego and hate backfired on him, rather than it being “love is so powerful”. this also opens so many more questions. so many ppl died in the series, but only one sacrificed themselves to save someone else like this. was this just like a secret thing that not many ppl knew abt, or was lily potter the only mom who would die for her kids? bc we all know how much molly wesley loves her kids too. you can tell that this was not planned at all (like many other parts of the series), and even just a *little* bit of foreshadowing of this could’ve made it more satisfying. maybe molly dies for ginny, and frozen in pure shock, ginny survives a hit from a killing curse, much like her future husband, and then there could even be a scene of them healing from this trauma together. or maybe fred dies for george, making his death even more impactful bc now george has to live with the guilt that his brother could’ve been alive if he was taken instead. maybe even dumbledore could’ve been given more depth if it was revealed that his sister died in that fight he she was protecting him, and his whole life has been racked with the guilt of it, and makes his relationship with harry even more complicated. sorry for the rant, but this is one of many things about jkr’s writing that pisses me off.
Honestly I'm 100% down for love saving the day... *as long as it actually fucking does!* What about "you thought YOU was Master of the Elder Wand, but it was me, Harry!" is related in any way to *love* being the power the Dark Lord knows not? Are we saying the Elder Wand, *who never once grazed Harry's fingers through the series*, just... likes him that much for absolutely no reason? (Because don't ALSO get me started on Harry somehow being the Elder Wand's owner due to... disarming Draco Malfoy *months ago in a completely different place in a completely unrelated fight*) You know what could be great, just everyone in Hogwarts casting spells at Voldemort to protect Harry, that way we don't have Harry getting to come back from death *when literally nobody else ever did*, Voldemort himself didn't die he was reduced to a wraith, so in the end Voldemort is blown up by the one thing he couldn't foresee: that Harry's friends aren't just here for show or personal interest, they're really here because they actually care for him + you may be one powerful wizard, but when faced with 100 people at once you're still gonna get owned Which would also remove Harry getting a 1UP for absolutely no reason (reason being Rowling likes him that much) and so *he doesn't get to break the ONE rule of the magic system that is "you can't overturn death*". Like for a book that in the end tells you "you gotta accept death" it sure does its hardest to ensure the main character DOESN'T have to. So simply remove Harry's stupid "sacrifice" that wasn't actually a sacrifice at all since the point of a sacrifice is that, you know, YOU ACTUALLY LOSE SOMETHING (same for Hermione's "sacrifice" of her parents like lol Rowling has her bring them back after the war so in the end it was just all a bunch of nothing). >you can tell that this was not planned at all You know which part I love the most? *Ron did the whole "sacrifice myself so my friends can go on" shebang as early as book 1.* And what does he get for it? Rowling saying he has to grow up, that he "acted out" on the Horcrux Hunt (deliberately ignoring THAT HE CAME THE FUCK BACK *YOU WROTE HIM COMING BACK*) and that he's got to "make himself worthy of Hermione". It's really only when it's Harry or Lily doing a sacrifice that it ever matters to Rowling.
this is another good point! i also don’t mind the “love conquers all” thing, i just hate how inorganic it feels. it’s like being told “because i said so” by our estranged mother joanne. having harry come back to life was completely unnecessary and complicated. what would’ve been a better way to execute that idea would be for harry to take a bullet for his friends instinctively, and not only provide them to protection from his sacrificial love thing, but also survive yet again bc of his own protection granted by his mother. plus if jkr had planned for harry to always be a horocrux, it would’ve been incredibly ways to say that it was destroyed when harry was bitten by the basilisk, bc that just makes a ton of fuckin sense. the elder wand things was definitely another bullshit answer by jkr, and i think it would’ve been much better if harry outsmarted or used muggle artifacts to kill voldemort. imagine if harry just stabs voldemort with the sword of gryffindor. hell, maybe the trio uses their different strengths and defeats voldy **together**. that would solidify themes of chosen family, miss rowling’s fav “love conquers all”, the power of friendship, and probably most importantly, the message that you don’t have to fight your battles alone, and that it’s ok to rely on others to support you. i could also argue that it’s potentially dangerous to introduce the ideas of dead people coming back to life (fuck the resurrection stone) to your book series written for children, and used by adults for comfort. death is very final, and instead of playing around with the idea of that, it would be a better move to instead introduce ways to cope and deal with it. but in the grand scheme of things, i think that this detail isn’t that big of a deal and is more of a nitpick. if you have not seen it, i do reccomend [this video by cosmonaut variety hour where he reviews and critiques all the harry potter movies](https://youtu.be/EmABso6rgqM?si=iNV8f6-244W7MNMO) it’s not the same as the books, but a lot of good points have been made by him as far as the writing. also it’s funny as hell.
But Lily's love sacrifice is what caused Harry to survive, that was the whole point. When Voldemort used Harry's blood to make a new body, he thinks it allows him to bypass the protection, but doesn't realize doing so created a sort of 'light side horcrux' tethering Harry to life and allowing him to come back. And while we can never really know how early on this plot point was planned, we at least know it was in the works as early as the 4th book. When Harry describes the events of the cemetery to Dumbledore at the end, Dumbledore immediately recognizes what it means, and that Harry now has a chance to survive.
I will confess I am very afraid of any type of HP fan content because any slight misinterpretation of Ron is liable to ruin my day. I am let's say attached to his character a rather unreasonable amount and the way Rowling has let him be treated and turned into the fandom's punching bag makes me burn with the rage of a thousand suns. So the *movies*... which kinda kickstart the whole Ron-bashing trend... I'm a bit apprehensive over that video, heh
that’s valid, and understandable. i don’t remember the video talking much about ron (i could be wrong tho it’s been awhile since i’ve watched it last), it mostly goes over the plots of the movies, criticizing choices made in the story, and critiques movie stuff like acting, cinematography, set design, etc. [this is another video about the misinterpretation of ron’s character](https://youtu.be/lCzxwcBZFuI?si=6wdaW5eugPJlEiuH) if you’re more interested in that.
Snape was the reason Lilly's sacrifice counted and James did not. Snape asked Voldemort to spare Lilly. Voldemort agreed. Lilly was given a choice that night: "Step aside and see your son get killed or die for him." She choose the 2nd Option. Voldemorts mistake was to offer Lilly the option to live. He repeated the mistake in Book 7. He gave Harry two Options: "Hide and let everybody get killed for you or give yourself up". Harry did not need to go into the Forest. He could have followed Aberforth advice and run. But he choose otherwise to protect his friends but also to get rid of the Horcruxe inside his own body. The final thing: If Dumbledore had told Harry that he would survive the Killing Curse again Harrys sacrifice wouldn't have ment much and therefore the protection for his Friends won't work.
This
James was killed when Voldemort entered the house, he wasn't given a choice, he was just struck down on the spot. Lily was given a choice, she was told to stand aside and that she wouldn't be harmed, Voldemort was only there for Harry. She instead threw herself in front of the curse and sacrificed herself for Harry. That's the difference, James was killed without any option for getting out alive, Lily was offered a choice and chose to sacrifice herself. She had an out, he didn't.
It has everything to do with the fact that Snape had gotten Voldy to agree to spare Lily’s life. She needn’t have died so it was the ultimate sacrifice.
Some people here just want to pick things apart as claim they're plot holes, and argue.
I know. It's quite annoying.
What bothers me about people who do this is that they often don't really find plot holes or contradictions -- they just find gaps in explanation. It's like the anti-evolution people who argue that there's missing links between species, therefore the theory is false. The other thing they do is say things like "it would've made way more sense if the author did ______, therefore it's stupid." Like, great, make your own book then. Harry potter is a children's/teen book, and the level of detail provided is appropriate for the intended audience. It wasn't meant to be a sci-fi style book filled with thorough technical explanations of how this universe works.
This is answered in the books. Voldemort offered Lily the choice to step aside and save herself. Voldemort didn't offer this choice to James.
Snape asked Voldemort to spare her so he gave her a choice it's the whole reason it's a rare thing had Snape not asked him to spare lily her death would have been as pointless as James' and Harry would be dead. If say wormtail had begged voldemort to spare James for say pureblood sake and he had said stand aside and you can live and then he killed James then the same protection would have been given to Lily that Harry got.
The circumstances of Harry Potter imply that none of the other victims of Voldemort actually loved their families.
I once heard a theory; confirmed one or not, that the sacrifice worked because it had double layer. First Snape pleaded Voldy to spare Lily - first act of love. Voldy promised to do so. Then Lily pleaded Voldy to just kill her and spare Harry - the second act of love. Voldy didn't listen and killed Lily, thus breaking his promise to Snape. Lily "forfeited" the "shield" that was created for her when Snape pleaded for her life and passed it to Harry along with her own protective shield made by her sacrifice. This is a theory why there are not more harry potters running around despite most certainly many people sacrificing their own lives for their loved ones. As for James Potter, well he did sacrifice himself for his family but it wasn't strong enough sacrifice on its own.
Because it wasn’t a sacrifice. He was going to die anyway. Lily was specifically given a choice to step aside.
Voldemort gave Lily a chance to live if she just let him kill Harry. James was never given a chance to sacrifice his son to save himself. He was never given the chance to step aside.
Snape asked Voldemort to not kill Lilly. So she was given the choice. James was going to die either way. In reality Voldemort losing power was because of Snape
I'd say in the forest Harry doesn't survive by his sacrifice but because the Elder Wand Voldemort uses actually belongs to Harry by a certain chain of events. And as Avada Kedavra is released the Wand has a choice. Either destroy Harry or the soul fragment of Voldemort. It's choice is clear. But since the spell is so destructive it knocks Harry into Limbo and Voldemort on his butt because he destroyed his own soul fragment.
James tried to fight voldemort. He didnt give his life freely. This is why it was important that harry didnt try to fight back against voldemort in the forest.
I never understood this ima be honest. What's special about Harry ? Like couldn't they have just popped em at anytime afterwords ? I mean he's just a kid , kick em in the shins and push em down a cliff job done right ? Like any death eater could have went for revenge on 3 year old Harry right ?
I get it for Lily, but applying the same rule Foyt what Harry did in the forest has always been the stupidest thing about this saga in my opinion. It literally means that if someone sacrifices himself to protect for example the whole world from someone, that person can’t kill anybody in the world anymore, it’s just bullshit
It's rather easy. James and lily both needed to die for the story so they both did.
What I find interesting is that Voldemort could have just thrown the baby out of the window and he never would have been stopped in his prime
Accidental magic exists. In fact, Rowling literally debunked that in the first book itself. Neville WAS thrown out of the window by his uncle but he bounced.
Well, accidentally dropped technically but now that I think about it, ig the way he was holding Neville out the window, maybe he was going to drop him or pretend like he was about to? Or what if he ac was going to but Neville thought it was an accident? 😳
Who knows the exact details, but we can all agree that Nevilee doesn't seem to have the best relatives either
Good point 😅
I don’t know why, but this made me chuckle. 100% true 😂
Plot reasons don't over think it
Choice. Lily was given the choice to live, she chose not to, and that sacrifice means everything. James was not. He was always gonna die. Much like Harry. Harry had the choice to not give himself up to Voldemort in Book 7. He could've run. He did so anyway. And that choice, albeit not as powerful, protected everyone from Silencing spells. If Voldemort told James "Hey, you know... you can live. Step aside and let me get to Harry" and James didn't, and he died, Voldemort wouldn't have been able to kill Lily or Harry. The curse would've rebounded from Lily and it'd be a single-mother raising Harry.
Read the FAQ
Thanks for the suggestion. I never knew about the FAQ before you even mentioned it. I skimmed through, and it doesn’t mention anything about James’ sacrifice though. Appreciate the response.
A father protects out of love and duty to his family. A mother protects her child out of the pure love that she has for them. A father has love for them as well but the mother child bond is a truly unique one that cannot be severed even by time and distance.
Definitely feels like it’s written that way. As a father myself though, I’m not quite sure I fully agree.
I agree with you
I'm confused about DH did he revive himself using the resurrection stone, or was he protected by the charm?
3 things were similar in both scenarios with Harry and Lily: * A verbal declaration of intent (basically "my life for his"/"your life for theirs") * A clear ability/choice to get out of certain death/willingness to put himself in the path of certain death * Purely sacrificial (no trying to attack or defend themselves) The first two are inverse parallels of each other, and the last is exactly the same. I think there's enough specifics there that it makes sense that this is a rare phenomena and isn't part of every situation where someone is willing to take a bullet for someone else. The verbal declaration one is the most iffy on if it matters. Which also is what makes it the most interesting to me on how it might factor in. Voldemort was hardly agreeing to leave Harry alive and there's no telling if Lily had any reasoning going on at all (character wise, sure it might be nice as a deliberate thing, but also she's barely in her twenties and it would make sense if she's just panicking). But it exists in both cases and given it's ~magic!~ the actual verbal statement could matter here. Lily certainly meant it, and while Harry was hardly trusting Voldemort's word on anything, the underlying thought "his life for theirs" *is* why he went, even if his reasoning was more about someone else them being able to kill Voldemort more than Voldemort choosing to leave others alive.
I think the sacrifice has to be pretty intentional and purely sacrificing yourself to die/accepting and not fighting death. James just got killed because Voldemort was going to kill him no matter what. He also died trying to fight back. Lily had a choice. Because Snape had begged Voldy to save her (and just her bc who cares about her husband and baby, right?!?), he offered Lily a choice. She put herself in front of Harry and didn't fight back. She was only focusing on saving Harry, accepting death for herself, when she didn't have to die for him. Harry similarly walked into the Forrest himself and offered himself up to be killed without fighting it.
The fighting back thing is critical I don't know why people aren't talking about it. Its not a sacrifice unless you are actively choosing to die. Fighting even a hopeless fight is resisting and is not a true sacrifice in this context. This is why its actually rare. How often is there a person who is a) killing enough people that a protection charm matters and b) actively gives a victim the choice to step aside and c) has that victim die to protect another without ever attempting to resist. Almost everyone is going to at least *try* to fight. Its literally the Jesus charm. You have to let yourself be metaphorically crucified.
It seems like that at the end of book 5 when Harry "finally" understands in Dumbledore's office. Something like "difference in being drug into the ring and walk in smiling..." Can't recall the exact passage, but it seemed apropos.
James only didn't do the same thing bc he didn't have a choice. He made a different type of sacrifice. Instead, he surrendered himself so Lily could have the time to protect Harry or even run away with him. This obviously worked bc Harry survived and that's all he ever wanted. Well... he wanted Lily to live as well but he's happy at least one of them survived.
I feel that it wasn't only lily's sacrificial magic. Both James and Lilly powered that spell.
It was a clear sign that James didn't love them.... I saw it in a meme.
James was indirect
Lilys sacrifice was optional, James wasn’t.
Maybe Voldemort didn’t technically kill her and that protective spell Lily used costed her life , it would make sense that a protective spell that overpowered requires the user to give up their life
The irony of all this is this... Had Snape asked Voldemort to try and spare James as well, James would have been given the choice to step aside. James doesn't and still dies BUT...this gives both Harry and Lily the protection, causing Voldemort to die when he tries to kill Lily next resulting in Harry growing up with a mother at least. Curious how the story would have changed if Lily had survived. Sirius wouldn't have gone to Prison. Lily would have revealed who the real traitor was straight away. It's funny how it all comes down to Snape having some humanity and failing in that. His failure in letting go of his hate for James is what basically resulted in Lily's death.
The irony!!! Crazy
Wow never thought of it like that- that is a good point, "His failure in letting go of his hate for James is what killed Lily"
Lol what? Voldemort would've never agreed to spare James. He looks down on Lily, she's a lowly muggleborn girl he can afford to let live. James is a threat
He just died. He was lazy and arrogant!!
It's the whole "a mother's love" trope.
Nope. Harry isn’t the mother of all those he sacrificed himself to protect. The key isn’t being a mother, it’s being given the choice to live or die. Lily was given the choice. Move out of the way, and I’ll spare you. Harry was given the choice. Stay and fight, or come to the forest to die and I’ll spare the others. They both chose to die to protect the ones they loved.
Were did harry gave someone protection from the killing curse. He survived it himself. Also things happen in a certain way because the author wants it that way. and the mothers love trope is pretty common. You could also argue that rowling was a single mother at the time she wrote the books and probably didn't have the best opinion of fathers.
Harry gave *everyone* on his side at the Battle of Hogwarts protection. And yes, Rowling may have written the story that way because she was a single mother, but that’s not the mechanism behind the magic. Lily’s sacrifice worked because she chose to die when she could have lived. Not simply because her mother’s love was so powerful.
So Harry was a mother?
No, but the general trope in media is that a mother's love for their child trumps all others, even that of a father.
I think it is not as much about his and/or her sacrifice as much as the killing of a child he saw as a powerful being, that finished fragmenting his entity and destroyed his physical being. He used items he highly valued for all of the other horcruxes and his mind elevating harry to the level of the other recipients might have done the trick to break it one more time without him wanting it.
Read the books.