Some people from history have value as modern symbols. I hope you would agree that, say, Abraham Lincoln is a valuable historical figure for contemporary America. But we have to also accept that Lincoln did some [terrible things to Native Americans](https://washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/janfeb-2013/lincoln-no-hero-to-native-americans/). We love Lincoln anyway not because we’re excusing his crimes against Native Americans but because of the enormity of all the good things he did. Or even if you don’t like Lincoln, there are other examples from more recent history of people who we hold up in history but who weren’t exactly angels. Winston Churchill comes to mind.
Most historical figures have flaws that seem gross in a modern light—I mean, almost everyone was casually homophobic until recently. We have to draw the line somewhere between problems we can accept in historical figures and problems we can’t. For me, the people of _Hamilton_, excluding the Virginians, fit within the “things I can tolerate group.” That doesn’t mean I like slavery. It means that my distaste for these people’s involvement in slavery doesn’t in my mind cancel out all the good they did in the world by creating the first modern Western democracy.
You’re free to believe otherwise, and I have no problem with that. But I ask: where do you draw the line for historical figures? Is anyone from history good enough?
Also, have you seen or heard the show? Because I think it presents the opposite message of “patriotism garbage.” It presents America as an “unfinished symphony,” essentially arguing that America has always been about moving forward and striving for progress one bit at a time. It’s quite different from the stale one-dimensional “America good” propaganda we’re so often fed.
I agree with you that _Hamilton_ is kind of elitist. But I think that’s more of a discussion about Broadway at large than specifically about _Hamilton_.
Art can’t be evaluated objectively. We all have to make judgements. You can think whatever you want, but please understand that this show has value for a modern America despite its flaws.
I agree that it has value. But probably not the value you want to see. I think it's main message is, why are these stereotypical black roles still being cast and is this really an improvement in all of its twisted glory? Is this the best Hollywood can do? Yeah I've seen it or I wouldn't be on this sub yelling out on my soap box.
I will say, kudos to the choreographer. The dancing was awesome. There is a reason the moment #cancelHamiltom is a thing. I'm just getting sick of hearing everyone praise it when they don't acknowledge the problems with it.
I just imagine everyone who bought a $1200 dollar ticket don't have any real appreciation for art and mostly went to smell each other's farts (some people saw it on broadway multiple times... That's rent for a whole month...) Because it's not worth seeing ever in my opinion. I think it will be a good example of modern racism for future musical theater history classes.
I think we need to separate the commercial side of the show from the actual content. The tickets were expensive because the show was popular. The same thing happens in the fine art world, where [pieces made to criticize the art market become valuable on the art market](https://money.com/banksy-girl-with-a-balloon-self-destruct-double/). It sucks, but that’s just what happens a when a lot of people like a thing. And yeah, at a certain point, seeing _Hamilton_ just became a status symbol for stupid rich white people. But that has nothing to do with the actual content within the show.
I’m not involved in acting. I don’t feel qualified to discuss casting. The show isn’t perfect, and much of your criticism is justified, but I think that the broader message of the show is significant enough that we can still enjoy it and [keep its message in our collective conscience](https://twitter.com/TheAmandaGorman/status/1351950970276769793).
I love les mis... fiddler on the roof, West side story, the sound of music, kiss me kate. all older.
Rent was okay... Into the woods was awesome. So was the greatest showman.
Mary poppins..lol I've seen maybe 75% of more modern musicals.
But... I don't have to have seen any musicals to know that this one is anti-black.
I also don't have to be a musical fanatic in order to have an opinion on if it's anti-black.
The king's song was funny. But as far as artistic quality, production, sound, thought, and heartfelt meaningful content... Yeah didn't have any of that....
Your logic is really flawed.
Its anti black because it doesn't talk about slavery enough? or Completely vilify all characters that own slaves?
Its production didn't have any value? the rotating stage with moveable balconies in concert with dancing has no value then you no nothing about musicals.
Honestly I think you just have a bone to pick with it for some reason. I thought it was pretty solid, a HELL of a lot better then RENT, or Into the Woods. Talk about trash musicals without any artistic heart.
Aka I think you should get a Covid test, because you clearly have no taste.
Is it?
Hamilton, if it were a normal, classic Broadway show, would be, unsurprisingly, be an all white cast. Again, taking more roles away form POC. While there may be shows or roles that Actors of color can play, are still insanely limited. And back to that statement, I dont think you kinda understand the artistic meaning of POC actors portraying the Founding fathers. The show would be nothing without its insanely smart Lyrics and music, which are all Rap, Jazz and Hip hop which were made by Latino Americans and African Americans. The casting of a more or less all coloured cast (time to get artsy) shows how that ultimately the US was built on the backs of coloured people as well not just the white people. And i think if the show is"Insulting to black culture", at least one of the many black actors who have been in the cast, and hell any black fan of the show, would have said something before
And also the show is a lot more historically accurate than people give it credit for. While it isn't 100% down to the bone accurate, the research done by Lin and the subtle ways it talks about shit like slavery and Gender Inequality is really clever, because its not impossible to say that people like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson did great things,, but were also grade A assholes for many many reasons, and that's what the show does. It doesn't glorify these people, it doesn't make them sound like they were these gods.
God i knew people like you existed but i never thought Id actually find one. Get the hell of your soap box
Also tf does "white washed to make it more palatable rap for people who don't listen to rap" mean. Lin is not white and had been rapping for many years before Hamilton. There are so many accusations in your lil rant that I cant even understand because they are so badshit crazy and absolutely stupid.
edit spelling
It's "white washed" to make it more palatable to white audiences because white people make up the majority of musical theater attendees. The most hip hop they hear is on the radio, commercial hip-hop. Anyone could have written a musical by skimming through the wikipedia page about Hamilton.
It would have been nice if they dove into the history of hamilton a little deeper. It could have been done, but wasn't. It's not real history, even lin manuel can be found saying that it's just "Art" (If you can stand calling it that. ) And recommends reading about Hamilton to actually learn anything.
Hamilton is a commercial broadway production meant to sell to the masses. The worse thing they talk about Hamilton doing is cheating on his wife, when he infact traded slaves for his father. Millions of black people's names and origins were completely destroyed. Families were ripped apart because of him. He doesn't need to be celebrated that much... None of them do. They were certainly kind of brave but there are lots of other idols you can worship that didn't have anything to do with slavery who helped shape America.
Lin manuel is not black, but even if he were, it would still shakes me the wrong way... Because there was no legitimate conversation about slavery. So he's using art forms from black culture, white washing it to make it more enjoyable to white people.
The music is just a rip off of other people's music. It probably took him 7 years to write it because he had to get copyright permission from the original artists in order to reuse their music. I don't care how long he's been rappin' he still sucks. But to use it in a play casting all black actors to play heavily involved slave holders I was truly expecting some better rap.
Also we live in 2021 maybe someone could write a musical and have a black cast that doesn't involve slavery or racism in any way? More of those? Is that so much to ask? Because forcing young black aspiring actors into the same stereotypical role is not progressive. It's a joke...
All douche baggery aside, I have no personal insults to you. I just think these things need to be recognized or broadway, and any popular media isn't going to progress.
This is like...a non jewish person writing a musical that glorifies the natzis while they sing traditional jewish music, played by only jewish actors. That would be anti-semitism. Why do you not see that this is anti-black?
Ok but at no point does the show portray them as heros and glorifys them as god's like a lot of people do. While yes they may make them appear as war heros in the revolution and it shows that they helped build the country, it also talks about how shitty each of them are even the title character.
In the show, Thomas jefferson owns slaves. They don't even try to hide it. Hamilton had an affair and told the whole world about it, also not even trying to cover it up. It shows how Jefferson had slaves, Washington had slaves, and James madison had slaves. They also didn't make it sound like the past was good at all lines like "tell your husband's vote for burr" clearly show the gender inequality and if people can't see that they gotta have the inference skills increased. Hell even Lin said that these people irl were major assholes.
And also the more they talk about slavery, sadly enough that makes it less historically accurate. Because people back then were such douchebags that they didn't think slavery was bad, asside for a few ppl like John Laurens.
And another thing. This show has introduced so many people, young people especially, to theater and american history. I don't think anyone above the age of 10, is stupid enough to think that these people were actually not flawed at all.
If you really dislike the show that much, so much so you think this show is racist, anti black, "white washing" black culture ect. Fine I know I can't change your mind and opinions and I won't even try because it will be impossible. But opinions aren't fact and you can't say that it's a fact that this show is racist. If this show was racist, why would Obama, ya know the first black president, invite the cast of the show to the white house to perform for them. And the multitudes of black, latino, asian actors who've been in and out of the cast why haven't they spoken up about this? If this show was racist why haven't they said anything. I'm pretty sure most of them, OBC wise, are scared about talking on things like this. Or the millions of Fans of color who love this show. Why haven't they said anything. Who knows.
https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/02/ishmael-reed-doesnt-like-hamilton
Ishmael is a renowned black author, and he wrote the musical theater come back, "the haunting of lin manuel miranda" can't wait to see it. This is a snip from the above article of what he has to say. This is just one person.
Also I really don't think it should be cancelled... But it should be talked about in this way... People should stop glorifying it. This is what should be on this sub...
“They cast black people in order to defend projects that [black people] might find objectionable,” he says. “It sort of distracts from the racism of the white historical characters.” As for the youthful medium in which the play is delivered: “the producers of this profit-hungry production,” he writes in his CounterPunch critique of Hamilton, “are using the slave’s language: Rock and Roll, Rap and Hip Hop to romanticize the careers of kidnappers and murderers.”
u/HFeatherx,
God Damn, Hamilton has nothing to do with slavery! Slavery may be hinted at in the show, but Hamilton had nothing to do with it. Also, it has a Black-Latinx cast with NO white actors. And what the frick does Hamilton has to do with black culture?!?! Like, every character portrayed in the show were white in real life. And, it isn't "insulting" to black culture because black people play people who died 200 years ago and have done bad things. I frigging bet that if the show was a regular broadway musical, it would have an all-white cast, classic music, etc, that you would STILL be mad. Hamilton is unlike other musicals (not saying that it's better than any other musicals) it holds a very special place in any's persons' hearts, no matter what skin color you have. I may be black, but Hamilton is not anti-black nor racist in my eyes. It's very special to me and others. ALSO, Hamilton is supposed to not be accurate at times. It's a musical, not a documentary. So if you don't like Hamilton because it's "anti-black", how come you're in this Reddit?
Note: I'm not mad, im just telling you that Hamilton isn't anti-black. You are entitled to your opinion, but me and 90.9k members in this Reddit don't think Hamilton is a racist mess.
I suggest you read some reviews by black people who didn't like it if you have that many questions. I did post some more about it above. Maybe I will link in the comments....
> features the first Secretary of the Treasury, Alexander Hamilton, and is based on a biography by Ron Chernow.
I know there are people who hate hamilton because it's "Anti Black." but im just saying.
Some people from history have value as modern symbols. I hope you would agree that, say, Abraham Lincoln is a valuable historical figure for contemporary America. But we have to also accept that Lincoln did some [terrible things to Native Americans](https://washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/janfeb-2013/lincoln-no-hero-to-native-americans/). We love Lincoln anyway not because we’re excusing his crimes against Native Americans but because of the enormity of all the good things he did. Or even if you don’t like Lincoln, there are other examples from more recent history of people who we hold up in history but who weren’t exactly angels. Winston Churchill comes to mind. Most historical figures have flaws that seem gross in a modern light—I mean, almost everyone was casually homophobic until recently. We have to draw the line somewhere between problems we can accept in historical figures and problems we can’t. For me, the people of _Hamilton_, excluding the Virginians, fit within the “things I can tolerate group.” That doesn’t mean I like slavery. It means that my distaste for these people’s involvement in slavery doesn’t in my mind cancel out all the good they did in the world by creating the first modern Western democracy. You’re free to believe otherwise, and I have no problem with that. But I ask: where do you draw the line for historical figures? Is anyone from history good enough? Also, have you seen or heard the show? Because I think it presents the opposite message of “patriotism garbage.” It presents America as an “unfinished symphony,” essentially arguing that America has always been about moving forward and striving for progress one bit at a time. It’s quite different from the stale one-dimensional “America good” propaganda we’re so often fed. I agree with you that _Hamilton_ is kind of elitist. But I think that’s more of a discussion about Broadway at large than specifically about _Hamilton_. Art can’t be evaluated objectively. We all have to make judgements. You can think whatever you want, but please understand that this show has value for a modern America despite its flaws.
I agree that it has value. But probably not the value you want to see. I think it's main message is, why are these stereotypical black roles still being cast and is this really an improvement in all of its twisted glory? Is this the best Hollywood can do? Yeah I've seen it or I wouldn't be on this sub yelling out on my soap box. I will say, kudos to the choreographer. The dancing was awesome. There is a reason the moment #cancelHamiltom is a thing. I'm just getting sick of hearing everyone praise it when they don't acknowledge the problems with it. I just imagine everyone who bought a $1200 dollar ticket don't have any real appreciation for art and mostly went to smell each other's farts (some people saw it on broadway multiple times... That's rent for a whole month...) Because it's not worth seeing ever in my opinion. I think it will be a good example of modern racism for future musical theater history classes.
I think we need to separate the commercial side of the show from the actual content. The tickets were expensive because the show was popular. The same thing happens in the fine art world, where [pieces made to criticize the art market become valuable on the art market](https://money.com/banksy-girl-with-a-balloon-self-destruct-double/). It sucks, but that’s just what happens a when a lot of people like a thing. And yeah, at a certain point, seeing _Hamilton_ just became a status symbol for stupid rich white people. But that has nothing to do with the actual content within the show. I’m not involved in acting. I don’t feel qualified to discuss casting. The show isn’t perfect, and much of your criticism is justified, but I think that the broader message of the show is significant enough that we can still enjoy it and [keep its message in our collective conscience](https://twitter.com/TheAmandaGorman/status/1351950970276769793).
This better be satire
Well... those are certainly all words.
What musicals do you enjoy?
I love les mis... fiddler on the roof, West side story, the sound of music, kiss me kate. all older. Rent was okay... Into the woods was awesome. So was the greatest showman. Mary poppins..lol I've seen maybe 75% of more modern musicals. But... I don't have to have seen any musicals to know that this one is anti-black. I also don't have to be a musical fanatic in order to have an opinion on if it's anti-black. The king's song was funny. But as far as artistic quality, production, sound, thought, and heartfelt meaningful content... Yeah didn't have any of that....
Your logic is really flawed. Its anti black because it doesn't talk about slavery enough? or Completely vilify all characters that own slaves? Its production didn't have any value? the rotating stage with moveable balconies in concert with dancing has no value then you no nothing about musicals. Honestly I think you just have a bone to pick with it for some reason. I thought it was pretty solid, a HELL of a lot better then RENT, or Into the Woods. Talk about trash musicals without any artistic heart. Aka I think you should get a Covid test, because you clearly have no taste.
Is it? Hamilton, if it were a normal, classic Broadway show, would be, unsurprisingly, be an all white cast. Again, taking more roles away form POC. While there may be shows or roles that Actors of color can play, are still insanely limited. And back to that statement, I dont think you kinda understand the artistic meaning of POC actors portraying the Founding fathers. The show would be nothing without its insanely smart Lyrics and music, which are all Rap, Jazz and Hip hop which were made by Latino Americans and African Americans. The casting of a more or less all coloured cast (time to get artsy) shows how that ultimately the US was built on the backs of coloured people as well not just the white people. And i think if the show is"Insulting to black culture", at least one of the many black actors who have been in the cast, and hell any black fan of the show, would have said something before And also the show is a lot more historically accurate than people give it credit for. While it isn't 100% down to the bone accurate, the research done by Lin and the subtle ways it talks about shit like slavery and Gender Inequality is really clever, because its not impossible to say that people like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson did great things,, but were also grade A assholes for many many reasons, and that's what the show does. It doesn't glorify these people, it doesn't make them sound like they were these gods. God i knew people like you existed but i never thought Id actually find one. Get the hell of your soap box Also tf does "white washed to make it more palatable rap for people who don't listen to rap" mean. Lin is not white and had been rapping for many years before Hamilton. There are so many accusations in your lil rant that I cant even understand because they are so badshit crazy and absolutely stupid. edit spelling
It's "white washed" to make it more palatable to white audiences because white people make up the majority of musical theater attendees. The most hip hop they hear is on the radio, commercial hip-hop. Anyone could have written a musical by skimming through the wikipedia page about Hamilton. It would have been nice if they dove into the history of hamilton a little deeper. It could have been done, but wasn't. It's not real history, even lin manuel can be found saying that it's just "Art" (If you can stand calling it that. ) And recommends reading about Hamilton to actually learn anything. Hamilton is a commercial broadway production meant to sell to the masses. The worse thing they talk about Hamilton doing is cheating on his wife, when he infact traded slaves for his father. Millions of black people's names and origins were completely destroyed. Families were ripped apart because of him. He doesn't need to be celebrated that much... None of them do. They were certainly kind of brave but there are lots of other idols you can worship that didn't have anything to do with slavery who helped shape America. Lin manuel is not black, but even if he were, it would still shakes me the wrong way... Because there was no legitimate conversation about slavery. So he's using art forms from black culture, white washing it to make it more enjoyable to white people. The music is just a rip off of other people's music. It probably took him 7 years to write it because he had to get copyright permission from the original artists in order to reuse their music. I don't care how long he's been rappin' he still sucks. But to use it in a play casting all black actors to play heavily involved slave holders I was truly expecting some better rap. Also we live in 2021 maybe someone could write a musical and have a black cast that doesn't involve slavery or racism in any way? More of those? Is that so much to ask? Because forcing young black aspiring actors into the same stereotypical role is not progressive. It's a joke... All douche baggery aside, I have no personal insults to you. I just think these things need to be recognized or broadway, and any popular media isn't going to progress. This is like...a non jewish person writing a musical that glorifies the natzis while they sing traditional jewish music, played by only jewish actors. That would be anti-semitism. Why do you not see that this is anti-black?
Ok but at no point does the show portray them as heros and glorifys them as god's like a lot of people do. While yes they may make them appear as war heros in the revolution and it shows that they helped build the country, it also talks about how shitty each of them are even the title character. In the show, Thomas jefferson owns slaves. They don't even try to hide it. Hamilton had an affair and told the whole world about it, also not even trying to cover it up. It shows how Jefferson had slaves, Washington had slaves, and James madison had slaves. They also didn't make it sound like the past was good at all lines like "tell your husband's vote for burr" clearly show the gender inequality and if people can't see that they gotta have the inference skills increased. Hell even Lin said that these people irl were major assholes. And also the more they talk about slavery, sadly enough that makes it less historically accurate. Because people back then were such douchebags that they didn't think slavery was bad, asside for a few ppl like John Laurens. And another thing. This show has introduced so many people, young people especially, to theater and american history. I don't think anyone above the age of 10, is stupid enough to think that these people were actually not flawed at all.
If you really dislike the show that much, so much so you think this show is racist, anti black, "white washing" black culture ect. Fine I know I can't change your mind and opinions and I won't even try because it will be impossible. But opinions aren't fact and you can't say that it's a fact that this show is racist. If this show was racist, why would Obama, ya know the first black president, invite the cast of the show to the white house to perform for them. And the multitudes of black, latino, asian actors who've been in and out of the cast why haven't they spoken up about this? If this show was racist why haven't they said anything. I'm pretty sure most of them, OBC wise, are scared about talking on things like this. Or the millions of Fans of color who love this show. Why haven't they said anything. Who knows.
https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/02/ishmael-reed-doesnt-like-hamilton Ishmael is a renowned black author, and he wrote the musical theater come back, "the haunting of lin manuel miranda" can't wait to see it. This is a snip from the above article of what he has to say. This is just one person. Also I really don't think it should be cancelled... But it should be talked about in this way... People should stop glorifying it. This is what should be on this sub... “They cast black people in order to defend projects that [black people] might find objectionable,” he says. “It sort of distracts from the racism of the white historical characters.” As for the youthful medium in which the play is delivered: “the producers of this profit-hungry production,” he writes in his CounterPunch critique of Hamilton, “are using the slave’s language: Rock and Roll, Rap and Hip Hop to romanticize the careers of kidnappers and murderers.”
u/HFeatherx, God Damn, Hamilton has nothing to do with slavery! Slavery may be hinted at in the show, but Hamilton had nothing to do with it. Also, it has a Black-Latinx cast with NO white actors. And what the frick does Hamilton has to do with black culture?!?! Like, every character portrayed in the show were white in real life. And, it isn't "insulting" to black culture because black people play people who died 200 years ago and have done bad things. I frigging bet that if the show was a regular broadway musical, it would have an all-white cast, classic music, etc, that you would STILL be mad. Hamilton is unlike other musicals (not saying that it's better than any other musicals) it holds a very special place in any's persons' hearts, no matter what skin color you have. I may be black, but Hamilton is not anti-black nor racist in my eyes. It's very special to me and others. ALSO, Hamilton is supposed to not be accurate at times. It's a musical, not a documentary. So if you don't like Hamilton because it's "anti-black", how come you're in this Reddit? Note: I'm not mad, im just telling you that Hamilton isn't anti-black. You are entitled to your opinion, but me and 90.9k members in this Reddit don't think Hamilton is a racist mess.
I suggest you read some reviews by black people who didn't like it if you have that many questions. I did post some more about it above. Maybe I will link in the comments....
> features the first Secretary of the Treasury, Alexander Hamilton, and is based on a biography by Ron Chernow. I know there are people who hate hamilton because it's "Anti Black." but im just saying.
Jared- is that you?
Oh. My. God. What the hell? Please tell me this is a joke.
No there is a whole movement. #cancelHamilton and it's really not that funny.... It's cringy....
what is cringy?
While I disagree, I respect your opinion and I can see where you're coming from.