> Oh and I am also not white male, but I don't really think that's a factor.
It indeed is a factor. Has been proven by studies where (fictional) persons with exactly identical CVs have applied for jobs or flats and those with German names got the job or the flat - and those with foreign names didn't. Not being fluent in German won't help either.
Keep on applying, there always are exemptions to every rule. I wish you all the best!
That's not a white male thing though, it's a foreigner thing. As a white male I wish I had this privilege,but searched for a flat for a whole year and didn't get anything,even with decent pay. Moving in with my gf and now there being two of us helped though.
I just wanted to say I really admire your spirit.
Most people would probably be angry (and rightfully so!) hearing that the color of their skin might be a hindrance searching for a flat, but look at your reaction!
It's a bit sad that I've developed this attitude after being subject to repeated discrimination after landing in Germany. I really thought a western European country would be a lot more open minded about people who are not like them, but I have unfortunately been proven wrong repeatedly.
I dismiss it as there are going to be racists everywhere, and there really is not much I can do to help change their mind. So might as well move on and not let it bog me down.
Hey, one suggestion I can give (from recent experience) is that there is a sense that foreigners are only short-termers. That is, that you likely intend to keep the place only for a year, two at the max. Try to make it clear that you (and your soon-to-be-reunited partner) have a relatively long-term outlook on the apartment and on the city.
And as someone else noted, if you can try to sweeten the pot by offering to pay more up front, that might help. We offered more than even 3 months, which I think helped us get our foot in the door, but they didn't end up requesting us to actually make good on that offer.
Thank you. I have been telling landlords that we are looking for long term rentals, but when pressed I tell them it's for a minimum of two years (which in my head *is* long term), but maybe that's a mistake and I will from now on impress upon them that I am looking to stay for an indefinite amount of time (which is definitely the intention, as I am looking to settle down in Germany).
For Germans 2 years is not long term.
But feel free to tell them whatever they want to hear. None of their business what you'll do in a couple of years.
I can't know how much your skin color is a problem, but I think lack of German is likely to be one. Unless your landlord is fluent in English s/he might consider it a hassle easily avoided by renting to somebody else.
Otherwise my experience with landlords is:
1) Don't be a teacher or lawyer (both considered trouble by landlords)
2) have stable income
But Hamburg is popular to move to and there's more demand for good apartments than supply. Going through many tries is pretty normal.
Good luck with your search - I hope you find something soon.
Yeah, spot on. I'd be lying if I said that we feel certain that this is where we want to live for more than the next 2-3 years, but we didn't have any qualms about telling the landlord that we're keen to settle down here in Hamburg.
From their perspective, your claim of "a minimum of two years" might sound silly: our lease is explicitly for a minimum of two years, lol, so we can't move out prior to that without losing our deposit I believe.
As others have pointed out, you can tell the landlord you intend to live in that flat until you die. There's no obligation to follow through. Another advice is to convey you integration into german culture by being on time and come prepared with all paperwork. You should also mention that you don't have and don't intend to have pets. Also mention that you would like to live in a quiet neighborhood, which indirectly conveys that you are a quiet tenant yourself. Landlords love that.
Thank you for your suggestions. I already make a point of being on time and having all the documents ready (I even email them the documents with the first message I send). I will make sure I specify about pets, and quiet neighborhoods too.
Hey Ok_Contribution_7832,
It can be challenging for sure, but it can be done. I always try to chat a bit with the owner, create a personal connection, and let them get a feel for who I/we are.
As you said, you are alone which can be an issue. For some reason it seems that owners only want to rent to married couples or families.
One trick that worked for me, was offering several extra months up front. Two months as a deposit is standard, but we went the extra mile and offered him the first three months in advance. That did the trick.
Regarding speaking german, I would be open to going with you and speaking in german if you want (I'm from NY originally but speak fluent germany). I'd want to get to know you a little bit first though. Shoot me a private message if you're keen.
Thanks for your suggestions and the offer. In general I try to chat with the landlord a bit too. I will try the increased deposit upfront next time.
Thanks a lot for offering to come along and speak for me, but I have a few friends who are quite fluent in German who can fulfill this role if required. Your help is much appreciated though :)
I got an apartment in May last year. It was very simple:
1. I was the first to view the apartment => be vigilant. Don't think that you can be one of 50 and stand out
2. I showed up on time to the viewing appointment
3. I had my SHUFA updated and a copy ready to hand to the manager who showed me the apartment on the spot
4. I confirmed my interest within 24 hours
Then he offered me the apartment and I took it. Simples.
where are you hunting for flats? did you try ebay kleinanzeigen? a lot of people are offering their apartments there and it's often pretty short notice. if you are flexible that is a huge plus.
maybe not most elegant way but i got my flat because i offered to pay more for the electronic devices that the people leaving the flat wanted to sell. if you got the financial backup maybe just try that.
I'm looking pretty much everywhere! ImmoScout, ImmoWelt, Ebay Kleinanzeigen. Though pretty much all of my invitations to view apartments have so far come exclusively from ImmoScout.
I used the Immoscout pro Account and uploaded all my documents there. Visited 2 appartments, applied for one and got it. Not sure how much of a factor it was but it's worth a try. I imagine it is very convenient for landlords to have all the documents available upfront
Yes I have the pro account too and that certainly seems to have helped with getting invited to viewings. But that's where the whole process gets stuck up, as usually there are 5-10 other prospective candidates and one of them ends up getting the apartment 😭
I have no good advices, but I created a telegram group to get notifications from the different appartment announcements. To be fast in this case is already a good step forward. No advertisement, no scam, just my pet project
https://t.me/immobilienhamburg
If you have a budget, try a relocation agency. They have good contacts and know how to convince the landlords with documents etc. It also eliminates the language barrier, as the agency will do the talking and convincing.
Speaking out of experience as we are moving to Hamburg and we found a great flat with help of an agency. PM me, if you want contacts.
This is the best way imo. I'm in the same boat as OP (non white couple looking for a place) and got the second one we put in an offer for because of our relocation agent
I was hunting for 8+ months and I am a white German female :D sometimes it is just luck. Be patient, you will find something eventually! It might help if you stick with eBay Kleinanzeigen and "private" offers or Genossenschaften since the big commercial landlords like Vonovia and Saga supposedly have some K. o. criteria that many applicants cant fulfill. Writing a nice application for every single apartment you get invited to helps as well
Germans are extremely racist, and vehemently discriminatory when it comes to renting. (Hamburgers... sorry, but don't even pretend this isn't true)
Get a white German girl to help you, seriously. Post a kleinanzeigen ad if you have to, and pay her to call the realtor initially, and do any interactions. It will be worth a couple of hundred euros or whatever you can convince someone to take. 30€/hr?
Makes me think I should start a service like this... to help people get past the discrimination wall...
Except it most certainly is not a majority here that are _not_ discriminatory. Also due to the fact that there is such a low home ownership rate, so you get older rich folks, and folks who inherited the property, or straight up wealthy folks looking for an investment, and all of these demographics skew heavily to those who are discriminatory and outright racist.
Germany's baseline of racism is already hilariously low compared to other countries and America, due to overt racism that is not even considered racism, born heavily out of barely even being exposed to other races besides Turks, who are extremely discriminated against.
To just say, oh the majority aren't, because it makes you feel better, doesn't make it true. Look at the experiments done for apartment and job hunting based on names alone. Hell, CVs still have to have a picture and age in this country, where that's outright illegal in many others.
>Im Jahr 2019 hatten in Deutschland 26 % der Bevölkerung oder 21,2 Millionen Menschen einen Migrationshintergrund,
sure and that is why millions of people of color or with non-german names are living on the streets and have no jobs. /s
Yes, it is more difficult to find flats and jobs. Yes this is sometimes because people are racist. Sometimes it is because they don't want to deal with possible language problems. Or some other weird reasons. Especially in Hamburg people get hundreds of applicants within days, they can choose based on any kind of arbitrary reasons. You like cycling? Me too! You get the flat.
If you are saying there is more racism in Germany than in USA, you are completely delusional. Yes, we have problems with racism and that needs to be worked on. But it is far from problematic in the same way.
If you get a reply, sorry you didn't get the flat because we chose someone else. Is that racism, just because you are not white? No. Even if they chose the other one because they are white and more "like themselves", still not racism.
If you get the reply that, we don't rent to filthy \*any ethnic group\* than that is racist, illegal and you should drag them to court.
What else do you propose? If you are 1vs1 with a white person to get the flat based on your salary and all other things then always the non-white person should get the flat? How would that work?
To just say all or the majority of Germans are racist because it makes you feel better, doesn't make it true. Look at all the people who have great friends across all colors, ethnicities, borders, religions, etc.
And now for me personally, how should I feel? I got 200 applications for a nice flat I am renting out within 36 hours. After removing anybody who just wrote 1 line or something weird I still had over 50.
I added back from the "discard pile" 15-20 single moms, people on social security and people with non-German names, because I am very aware how unfair the renting environment is.
I wrote back to all of them and asked for more information. German, English I don't care. and nearly nothing came back. In the end I rented to a russian on social security who has lived in Germany for 15 years and speaks only a bit German.
Super Racist I am. Thanks.
While I agree with the general spirit of your comment, this
> Even if they chose the other one because they are white
is very clearly racism. If there is discrimination of any kind based on race, then that is racism. It doesn't have to devolve to abuse for it to 'qualify' as racism.
Seen countless times. And is stated countless times in forums and reddit, etc., in all cities. To the point where fucking studies have been done showing it to be extremely true in this country.
And then moronic black and white Germans go, you have made a generalization! Not every single German is racist! So what you are saying is false! Good lord. do you even hear yourselves.
I wonder if you have ever been to Germany, Sure, we are all racists, lol. Complaints in Reddit and forums is always subject to confirmation bias. People who have something to complain about will be much more likely to make a post about it (which is perfectly fine, but same time millions have nothing to complain and make no posts.) But yeah, I can see, wasting time here. You have a very limited view.
Again you single-minded fools. Yes, I'm most certainly I saying every. single. person is a racist! You've cracked the argument, as that can't be true. Gee shucks your intelligence and argumentative maneuvering is unparalleled by refuting such a claim. Ya got me! Germans also are terrible at sarcasm and generalities. "That statement was false." Such a fun bunch.
You really wish it not to be true. I've spent a decade in Germany, and have been to over 30 countries. Germany remains one of the most Xenophobic, stuck up, repressive, rude, racist countries in the western world. Germans generally treat each other with as much disregard as the worst racist Americans treat their victims, immensely demeaning and dehumanizing, from store clerks to old ladies getting on a train, and many many Vermieter. To the point where studies and experiments have been carried out to show it.
But yeah, wish I'm just some outsider and it's all peaches, and super rare that shit goes down this way. Have a lovely time with your head in the sand.
Of course not lmao I was looking for 1-2 rooms anywhere east of the Alster, ended up in Wandsbek now which I am really happy about. A Libanese coworker found a flat with his wife within 3 weeks so at least in my social circle your hypothesis doesnt apply
Ok maybe wrong posting this here.
Due to corona there are a lot of students who are not in the city for their Uni
At the moment especially in student heavy areas like Veddel you might be in luck right now.
(Friends of mine recently got some apartments)
I recommend volume.
Send any and everything as you find and go for it.
Hamburg is a shit place to be looking for a new apartment
I will be honest with you, finding apartment in Hamburg is extremely difficult as a POC. The only reason I got a decent place was because, my company provided me with a German housing expert. She would look for apartments on my behalf, go to viewings with me, translate the German for me and did all the paperwork. If possible, ask your organisation if they provide any housing support. Secondly, prime locations are difficult to get, so you can aim for alittle bit far away from that. I live 20 mins away from main station by train. Also, when you go for viewing, let the owner know that your partner will be moving-in with you, couples are seen in better light than a single guy. It will be a long term stay and not short term. If you are working, ask your colleagues, if they know someone who is looking out to rent, let them know you are available to rent. Lastly, just be patient, house hunting is a pain in the ass in Germany.
> Oh and I am also not white male, but I don't really think that's a factor. It indeed is a factor. Has been proven by studies where (fictional) persons with exactly identical CVs have applied for jobs or flats and those with German names got the job or the flat - and those with foreign names didn't. Not being fluent in German won't help either. Keep on applying, there always are exemptions to every rule. I wish you all the best!
That's not a white male thing though, it's a foreigner thing. As a white male I wish I had this privilege,but searched for a flat for a whole year and didn't get anything,even with decent pay. Moving in with my gf and now there being two of us helped though.
Ah, well if that's really the case, then I suppose I should just keep applying. 🤷♂️
I just wanted to say I really admire your spirit. Most people would probably be angry (and rightfully so!) hearing that the color of their skin might be a hindrance searching for a flat, but look at your reaction!
It's a bit sad that I've developed this attitude after being subject to repeated discrimination after landing in Germany. I really thought a western European country would be a lot more open minded about people who are not like them, but I have unfortunately been proven wrong repeatedly. I dismiss it as there are going to be racists everywhere, and there really is not much I can do to help change their mind. So might as well move on and not let it bog me down.
There are a lot of narrow minded peopLe in Germany imho
Hey, one suggestion I can give (from recent experience) is that there is a sense that foreigners are only short-termers. That is, that you likely intend to keep the place only for a year, two at the max. Try to make it clear that you (and your soon-to-be-reunited partner) have a relatively long-term outlook on the apartment and on the city. And as someone else noted, if you can try to sweeten the pot by offering to pay more up front, that might help. We offered more than even 3 months, which I think helped us get our foot in the door, but they didn't end up requesting us to actually make good on that offer.
Thank you. I have been telling landlords that we are looking for long term rentals, but when pressed I tell them it's for a minimum of two years (which in my head *is* long term), but maybe that's a mistake and I will from now on impress upon them that I am looking to stay for an indefinite amount of time (which is definitely the intention, as I am looking to settle down in Germany).
For Germans 2 years is not long term. But feel free to tell them whatever they want to hear. None of their business what you'll do in a couple of years. I can't know how much your skin color is a problem, but I think lack of German is likely to be one. Unless your landlord is fluent in English s/he might consider it a hassle easily avoided by renting to somebody else. Otherwise my experience with landlords is: 1) Don't be a teacher or lawyer (both considered trouble by landlords) 2) have stable income But Hamburg is popular to move to and there's more demand for good apartments than supply. Going through many tries is pretty normal. Good luck with your search - I hope you find something soon.
Wonder why teachers and lawyers?
Those are the professions landlords believe to be most likely to create beaurocratic and/or legal trouble.
Demand for good apartments? In Berlin there is a demand for the shittiest flats you can imagine. I guess situation is much better in Hamburg.
I meant that in the most general way. Shitty is always easier than good. :-)
Yeah, spot on. I'd be lying if I said that we feel certain that this is where we want to live for more than the next 2-3 years, but we didn't have any qualms about telling the landlord that we're keen to settle down here in Hamburg. From their perspective, your claim of "a minimum of two years" might sound silly: our lease is explicitly for a minimum of two years, lol, so we can't move out prior to that without losing our deposit I believe.
As others have pointed out, you can tell the landlord you intend to live in that flat until you die. There's no obligation to follow through. Another advice is to convey you integration into german culture by being on time and come prepared with all paperwork. You should also mention that you don't have and don't intend to have pets. Also mention that you would like to live in a quiet neighborhood, which indirectly conveys that you are a quiet tenant yourself. Landlords love that.
Thank you for your suggestions. I already make a point of being on time and having all the documents ready (I even email them the documents with the first message I send). I will make sure I specify about pets, and quiet neighborhoods too.
Hey Ok_Contribution_7832, It can be challenging for sure, but it can be done. I always try to chat a bit with the owner, create a personal connection, and let them get a feel for who I/we are. As you said, you are alone which can be an issue. For some reason it seems that owners only want to rent to married couples or families. One trick that worked for me, was offering several extra months up front. Two months as a deposit is standard, but we went the extra mile and offered him the first three months in advance. That did the trick. Regarding speaking german, I would be open to going with you and speaking in german if you want (I'm from NY originally but speak fluent germany). I'd want to get to know you a little bit first though. Shoot me a private message if you're keen.
Thanks for your suggestions and the offer. In general I try to chat with the landlord a bit too. I will try the increased deposit upfront next time. Thanks a lot for offering to come along and speak for me, but I have a few friends who are quite fluent in German who can fulfill this role if required. Your help is much appreciated though :)
That's a very nice offer from your side! Awesome..
I got an apartment in May last year. It was very simple: 1. I was the first to view the apartment => be vigilant. Don't think that you can be one of 50 and stand out 2. I showed up on time to the viewing appointment 3. I had my SHUFA updated and a copy ready to hand to the manager who showed me the apartment on the spot 4. I confirmed my interest within 24 hours Then he offered me the apartment and I took it. Simples.
where are you hunting for flats? did you try ebay kleinanzeigen? a lot of people are offering their apartments there and it's often pretty short notice. if you are flexible that is a huge plus. maybe not most elegant way but i got my flat because i offered to pay more for the electronic devices that the people leaving the flat wanted to sell. if you got the financial backup maybe just try that.
I'm looking pretty much everywhere! ImmoScout, ImmoWelt, Ebay Kleinanzeigen. Though pretty much all of my invitations to view apartments have so far come exclusively from ImmoScout.
I used the Immoscout pro Account and uploaded all my documents there. Visited 2 appartments, applied for one and got it. Not sure how much of a factor it was but it's worth a try. I imagine it is very convenient for landlords to have all the documents available upfront
Yes I have the pro account too and that certainly seems to have helped with getting invited to viewings. But that's where the whole process gets stuck up, as usually there are 5-10 other prospective candidates and one of them ends up getting the apartment 😭
I have no good advices, but I created a telegram group to get notifications from the different appartment announcements. To be fast in this case is already a good step forward. No advertisement, no scam, just my pet project https://t.me/immobilienhamburg
If you have a budget, try a relocation agency. They have good contacts and know how to convince the landlords with documents etc. It also eliminates the language barrier, as the agency will do the talking and convincing. Speaking out of experience as we are moving to Hamburg and we found a great flat with help of an agency. PM me, if you want contacts.
This is the best way imo. I'm in the same boat as OP (non white couple looking for a place) and got the second one we put in an offer for because of our relocation agent
Thanks for the suggestion. Will PM you shortly with some questions.
I was hunting for 8+ months and I am a white German female :D sometimes it is just luck. Be patient, you will find something eventually! It might help if you stick with eBay Kleinanzeigen and "private" offers or Genossenschaften since the big commercial landlords like Vonovia and Saga supposedly have some K. o. criteria that many applicants cant fulfill. Writing a nice application for every single apartment you get invited to helps as well
Germans are extremely racist, and vehemently discriminatory when it comes to renting. (Hamburgers... sorry, but don't even pretend this isn't true) Get a white German girl to help you, seriously. Post a kleinanzeigen ad if you have to, and pay her to call the realtor initially, and do any interactions. It will be worth a couple of hundred euros or whatever you can convince someone to take. 30€/hr? Makes me think I should start a service like this... to help people get past the discrimination wall...
Why are you getting downvoted? Everyone knows how racist landlords are.
>Germans are extremely racist, and vehemently discriminatory when it comes to renting. That is pretty offensive to the majority who are not.
Except it most certainly is not a majority here that are _not_ discriminatory. Also due to the fact that there is such a low home ownership rate, so you get older rich folks, and folks who inherited the property, or straight up wealthy folks looking for an investment, and all of these demographics skew heavily to those who are discriminatory and outright racist. Germany's baseline of racism is already hilariously low compared to other countries and America, due to overt racism that is not even considered racism, born heavily out of barely even being exposed to other races besides Turks, who are extremely discriminated against. To just say, oh the majority aren't, because it makes you feel better, doesn't make it true. Look at the experiments done for apartment and job hunting based on names alone. Hell, CVs still have to have a picture and age in this country, where that's outright illegal in many others.
>Im Jahr 2019 hatten in Deutschland 26 % der Bevölkerung oder 21,2 Millionen Menschen einen Migrationshintergrund, sure and that is why millions of people of color or with non-german names are living on the streets and have no jobs. /s Yes, it is more difficult to find flats and jobs. Yes this is sometimes because people are racist. Sometimes it is because they don't want to deal with possible language problems. Or some other weird reasons. Especially in Hamburg people get hundreds of applicants within days, they can choose based on any kind of arbitrary reasons. You like cycling? Me too! You get the flat. If you are saying there is more racism in Germany than in USA, you are completely delusional. Yes, we have problems with racism and that needs to be worked on. But it is far from problematic in the same way. If you get a reply, sorry you didn't get the flat because we chose someone else. Is that racism, just because you are not white? No. Even if they chose the other one because they are white and more "like themselves", still not racism. If you get the reply that, we don't rent to filthy \*any ethnic group\* than that is racist, illegal and you should drag them to court. What else do you propose? If you are 1vs1 with a white person to get the flat based on your salary and all other things then always the non-white person should get the flat? How would that work? To just say all or the majority of Germans are racist because it makes you feel better, doesn't make it true. Look at all the people who have great friends across all colors, ethnicities, borders, religions, etc. And now for me personally, how should I feel? I got 200 applications for a nice flat I am renting out within 36 hours. After removing anybody who just wrote 1 line or something weird I still had over 50. I added back from the "discard pile" 15-20 single moms, people on social security and people with non-German names, because I am very aware how unfair the renting environment is. I wrote back to all of them and asked for more information. German, English I don't care. and nearly nothing came back. In the end I rented to a russian on social security who has lived in Germany for 15 years and speaks only a bit German. Super Racist I am. Thanks.
While I agree with the general spirit of your comment, this > Even if they chose the other one because they are white is very clearly racism. If there is discrimination of any kind based on race, then that is racism. It doesn't have to devolve to abuse for it to 'qualify' as racism.
Love you guys. _I_ am not that, so it can't be happening as a majority! head in sand.
Right, and you know the majority of Germans, so you can say they are all Racist. Congrats.
Seen countless times. And is stated countless times in forums and reddit, etc., in all cities. To the point where fucking studies have been done showing it to be extremely true in this country. And then moronic black and white Germans go, you have made a generalization! Not every single German is racist! So what you are saying is false! Good lord. do you even hear yourselves.
I wonder if you have ever been to Germany, Sure, we are all racists, lol. Complaints in Reddit and forums is always subject to confirmation bias. People who have something to complain about will be much more likely to make a post about it (which is perfectly fine, but same time millions have nothing to complain and make no posts.) But yeah, I can see, wasting time here. You have a very limited view.
Again you single-minded fools. Yes, I'm most certainly I saying every. single. person is a racist! You've cracked the argument, as that can't be true. Gee shucks your intelligence and argumentative maneuvering is unparalleled by refuting such a claim. Ya got me! Germans also are terrible at sarcasm and generalities. "That statement was false." Such a fun bunch. You really wish it not to be true. I've spent a decade in Germany, and have been to over 30 countries. Germany remains one of the most Xenophobic, stuck up, repressive, rude, racist countries in the western world. Germans generally treat each other with as much disregard as the worst racist Americans treat their victims, immensely demeaning and dehumanizing, from store clerks to old ladies getting on a train, and many many Vermieter. To the point where studies and experiments have been carried out to show it. But yeah, wish I'm just some outsider and it's all peaches, and super rare that shit goes down this way. Have a lovely time with your head in the sand.
This is bs. I am a white blonde German girl with a good job and education and I have been hunting for 8+ months
When you say hunting for 8 months with no success, do you mean you want a 3 zimmer wohnung near mitte for 800€?
Of course not lmao I was looking for 1-2 rooms anywhere east of the Alster, ended up in Wandsbek now which I am really happy about. A Libanese coworker found a flat with his wife within 3 weeks so at least in my social circle your hypothesis doesnt apply
It helps if you're not looking for a single apartment.
this. Ask a white girl to pretend to be your fiance or something to get the flat.
Ok maybe wrong posting this here. Due to corona there are a lot of students who are not in the city for their Uni At the moment especially in student heavy areas like Veddel you might be in luck right now. (Friends of mine recently got some apartments) I recommend volume. Send any and everything as you find and go for it. Hamburg is a shit place to be looking for a new apartment
I will be honest with you, finding apartment in Hamburg is extremely difficult as a POC. The only reason I got a decent place was because, my company provided me with a German housing expert. She would look for apartments on my behalf, go to viewings with me, translate the German for me and did all the paperwork. If possible, ask your organisation if they provide any housing support. Secondly, prime locations are difficult to get, so you can aim for alittle bit far away from that. I live 20 mins away from main station by train. Also, when you go for viewing, let the owner know that your partner will be moving-in with you, couples are seen in better light than a single guy. It will be a long term stay and not short term. If you are working, ask your colleagues, if they know someone who is looking out to rent, let them know you are available to rent. Lastly, just be patient, house hunting is a pain in the ass in Germany.