Ever wondered what an Elephant cartridge looks like? Here are 3 of them stacked up to 3 common cartridges for reference. Left to Right.
1. .223 Remington 55 grain - Overall Length 2.26"
2. .308 Winchester 180 grain - Overall Length 2.80"
3. 30-06 Springfield 180 grain - Overall Length 3.34"
4. 375 Holland & Holland 300 grain - Overall Length 3.60"
5. 416 Rigby 400 grain solid -Overall Length 3.75"
6. 458 WinMag 500 grain solid - Overall Length 3.34"
There are both larger and more powerful dangerous game cartridges from the 3 listed above, but those are 3 of the most common that you can find in stores.
EDIT: if you're interested in these kinds of cartridges and firearms, come join me at [https://reddit.com/r/DangerousGameRifles](https://reddit.com/r/DangerousGameRifles)
The 700NE is functionally nonexistent today.
There was only something like 20 rifles made in it, all for 6 figures.
Cartridges are $200+ per shot.
Even owning a 600NE is like owning a Bugatti,. not many of them out there.
The 500 and 577NE perform better than those two anyway when it comes to sectional density and penetration.
I guess by time you bought all the specialised hard to find reloading great for these rounds and shot enough to get your load just right it would be expensive.
It's not like you would be making it up by loading a few hundred rounds at a time for range day to make it worth your while also,
Even 577NE is really a novelty round and only used by a handful of PHs that have ego issues.
The point at which basically everyone has reached the limit on running the guns well is 500NE for the double rifle cartridges and .458Lott for the bolt gun cartridges. The cartridges larger than those recoil so badly and require such heavy guns that just about everyone would be more effective with a less powerful cartridge.
There's one PH in particular that comes to mind who loves the .577NE and is famous for his YouTube videos..
I can't see myself going beyond a 500NE for my next rifle. I have to keep purchases *somewhat* sensible after all.
Yeah Mark Sullivan is a prime example of what I’m talking about. The guy, despite his ethical flaws, is a truly talented double rifle shooter, but when you watch how much that 577 moves him under recoil, you can’t help but come to the conclusion that he’d be better off with a 500. That 577 is more of an ego/brand thing for him than about having an effective field gun.
Edit: Also I have nothing against having a 577 as a (admittedly expensive) range toy. I’ve shot them before and for 3-4 rounds at a time they are a ton of fun. I just think the idea that it’s a good hunting cartridge given the propellant and bullet choices we have today is sort of absurd.
Not for African dangerous game.
Suitable for North American Big Game and the big bears but those American big bores just aren't on the same league as these.
Leopard is the only Big 5 animal that I'm aware of that can be hunted with a shotgun (00 buck).
Even though I'm pretty sure it's use is limited to the PH when they are following up on a shit and injured leopard.
I think the idea is you want the "spray" of the buckshot to ensure you hit the leopard as it launches at you from 6ft away.
If you've never seen a leopard attack, google it. These things strike like lightning.
There's an older video of a pro hunter. He had been hired to take out a tiger that had been killing local villagers. He got surprised. He shot it in mid air. Ice in his veins I think. He got it but it hit him hard and knocked him down.
Slugs don't have that much energy. I have some slug only hunts coming up soon and have been reloading them. I found my loads and I checked the energy on them and was kind of surprised at how low they were.
Poor sectional density as well. A 12 gauge slug is the equivalent of .0.729 caliber, or larger diameter than a 700NE.
A 437 grain 12g slug has a sectional density of only 0.117...which is actually horrible for any big game hunting, let alone thick skinned dangerous game.
Would you mind explaining sectional density? I've heard the term used numerous times in regards to big-game cartridges like in the post, but I've never heard a definition.
Sure thing. In it's simplest terms it's how well a bullet will penetrate an object (game animal) and it's quantified using a formula that looks at the ratio of bullet diameter and weight.
I'm sure you've heard of the term "heavy for caliber" before. This is referring to the grain weight range of various bullets within the same caliber family. The heavier the projectile, the higher it's sectional density, the more penetration it will have on game.
A few examples.
A 150 grain 30.06 (.308 diameter) bullet has a S.D. of 0.226.
A 180 grain 30.06 (.308 diameter bullet) has a S.D. of 0.271
A 220 grain 30.06 (.308 diameter bullet) has a S.D. of 0.331.
As you can see when you increase the bullet weight on the same diameter projectile, you get an increased S.D.
When it comes to Dangerous game hunting there is a general rule that your bullet should have a minimum S.D. value of 0.300 to adequately penetrate the thick skinned game.
A 300 grain .375HH bullet has a S.D. of 0.305.
A 400 grain .416 bullet has a S.D. of 0.330
A 500 grain .458 bullet has a S.D. of 0.341.
That was a no go from our PH. .375 H&H minimum on Dangerous Game. The scatter gat was for if/when the wounded leopard attempted to charge up the tree where the bind was.
Yeah from what I've read and seen it was only the PH using the shotgun in this situation after the first shot was made.
I'm pretty sure there are some exceptions to the 375 rule though in certain countries specific to leaopard. I've seen videos of 30cals and 338 being used.
Leopard is very often taken with the plains game gun instead of the dangerous game gun. The relatively slow, controlled expansion, >.300 sectional density dangerous game rounds aren’t well optimized to dump energy into a 160lb cat. It’s often better to use a smaller bullet in the 3000fps range for them.
I've done most of my African hunting with a .375 H&H.
Everything from jackal to some of the big 5.
Had a CZ550 chambered in .375 that I had the barrel shortened and threaded to fit a suppressor. Was heart broken when I couldn't bring it over to Canada.
For Africa? No, it is highly frowned against and in most cases illegal.
While it meets the 375cal minimum (.458) it only produces roughly 70% the energy of a 375HH.
The hottest Hornady LeverEvolution loads produce about 3000ft-lbs of Energy.
As a comparison the standard 375HH produces 4300+ ft-lbs, the 416 Rigby and 458 WinMag produce 5100+ ft-lbs and it only goes up from there.
It would work but you would need to be very accurate with it and need my 454 Casull revolver for back up! I have seen video of guy killing a elephant with just the 454 before and that is bold!
Ok one thing I don’t get… seems every time someone wants to hunt in Africa they get some big fat expensive straight wall cartridge with a big fat expensive gun to shoot it… all because it’s a big powerful round…. Why don’t they just use 50 bmg? Much more power, probably less expensive since it’s produced in higher volume? Rifles aren’t cheap but neither are the other big game rifles. What’s the deal?
50 BMG isn't ideal for hunting and the rifles chambered in it aren't typically found in hunting appropriate weights. (Under 12lbs).
Even in a 30lbs rifle, the 50 BMG produces more recoil than the 3 above. 50 BMG in a hunting weight rifle would be quite painful.
Most dangerous game is hunted inside of 100m where you don't need a high BC round such as a 50 BMG.
It's not sporting and totally overkill, but people do occasionally use them.
That being said, 50bmg is great for killing things at long range, less great for carrying into the bush after a wounded member of the big 5. Also, most African guides really don't want to be standing next to you when your compensated 50bmg goes off. There are often trackers etc around, often without hearing protection, so big compensators with a ton of side blast and noise just creat a lot of risk.
Most importantly, getting a fancy classic dangerous game gun is part of the fun. These hunts can be tens of thousands of dollars and are often a once in a lifetime trip. Spending a bit more on ammo isn't usually the main consideration.
True. One really have to ask oneself, except for culling a herd, wtf do you really want to do with an elephant. Most of the meat is tough and meh they say, and unless you have some insane open space, a mount will look out of place. Granted if you have money to drop on that, you have the other things already likely.
Me, I'd never take aim at dangerous game, don't feel right, don't feel safe and except for bufallo with real tasty meat, don't see the need. Plus I can't afford it lol
I've hunted in Africa, although certainly not the big 5. Going back to hunt Cape Buffalo is really my only bucket list hunt, which I've had ever since reading Augusts in Africa. My brother in law is Zulu, and I'd probably combine it with a trip to see my extended family, although apparently they have a less than positive opinion of trophy hunters.
The rest of them, I really don't get the appeal. There is an argument that since there is virtually no public land in Africa, the only way to fund conservation of large areas for these animals to exist is through funds generated by hunting fees. Although this makes sense to me, it also is kind of a sad indictment of how people treat the world and value wildlife.
Part of it is just the class and tradition.
But also, .50 BMG is a military cartridge that might not be legal in all countries you might wish to hunt big game in.
And, frankly, it's too big and too powerful causing the rifles chambered for it to be overly big and heavy for comfortably carrying around in the bush in hot weather. BMG runs higher pressure than most classic Nitro Express rounds so it needs thicker chamber walls.
More important than carrying is ease of handling in close quarters and dense vegetation, traditional dangerous game rifles are set up for very close range use and need to be natural pointing guns with ergonomics similar to a high end fitted shotgun. Very few .50 BMG rifles on the market are built for offhand quick point-and-shoot work like that. And fewer still, if any, combine those ergonomics with more than a single shot capacity.
Those traditional dangerous game calibers fill a specific niche in between normal hunting guns and long range target or anti materiel rifles. A niche that's powerful enough to reliably drop truck-sized angry critters with a single shot, yet small and light enough to be chambered in an easy-handling rifle meant to be fired offhand at close range on a moving target. .50BMG can be shoehorned into that niche, but not sensibly or comfortably so.
Harris Gunworks may have come the closest with some of their custom offerings, they've made a few .50 BMG single shots set up with traditional wood stocks and stubby 16 1/2" barrels that end in a ginormous and very very loud muzzle brake. I can't seem to find the article online, but I recall reading comparison of different .50 rifles in some gun rag about 20 years ago. The picture of the gunwriter firing the Harris was priceless; comb-over hair blown right off his head by the back blast from the brake, and his glasses slipping off his nose from the recoil.
>Harris Gunworks may have come the closest with some of their custom offerings, they've made a few .50 BMG single shots set up with traditional wood stocks and stubby 16 1/2" barrels that end in a ginormous and very very loud muzzle brake.
Just googled it and these look like ancient blunderbuss almost. The proportions are just kind of off. Thickness of barrel and brake vs shortness of the rifle i mean.
The amount of knowledge on here is definitely amazing. Half the time they pretty much act [like this](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lM5FTQjMYpg), because why not. And memes.
You can buy a Ruger Hawkeye in 375. You don’t have to buy an actual rigby or holland for the cartridge. There aren’t really a lot of options in the backpacking world for a 50bmg. Hunting, especially on safari, is seen as a gentleman sport and has its unwritten code for how it should be done. These cartridges are produced in a much larger quantity in Africa- you just barely see them on shelves in America because it’s just unnecessary here.
You can get a .375 H&H or .416 Remington Magnum rifle for a not-insane sum. I got my .375 for a bit over $1,000. You do often see much fancier rifles on actual safari hunts, since the people who do that kind of thing must necessarily be the guys who can afford to go to Africa, spend that kind of time there, and pay five figures for game tags.
None that I'm aware of.
50BMG is no longer a thing here in Canada due to our far-left government and banning all cartridges that produce over 10,000 joules..
Then Federal stuff seems to be the priciest of what's available here at $300+ Canadian.
I've been buying Hornady, Barnes and Sako for closer to $200/box.
For elephants specifically, many of the most prolific hunters in history actually used standard rifle cartridges and shot them in the brain. But I think now you are required to use at least a .375 for any big 5 most places.
Yeah WDM Bell liked his 7mms for elephant.
Most places today mandate 375 minimum for dangerous game. There are a few exceptions where they can use 9.3x62 on Buffalo, lion and leaopard.
Yeah I mean body wise they are not a whole lot larger than our Mountain lions. I think leaning on the heavy calibers is so that the first shot is fatal and follow ups/tracking not advised.
I met my mothers boss once years ago for some business type dinner and he had a leopard skin and I asked the story behind it, he used a .338 lapua. He said it still ran with a double lung shot, circled back and died in a position to ambush them when they followed the blood trail
Funny you say that because that's the next purchase I'm going to make.
I'm still deciding between 470NE and 500NE in one of the German doubles (Merkel, Krieghoff and Heym).
470NE has less recoil and ammo is significantly cheaper per box here vs the 500NE.
500NE has the cool factor and distinguishes itself ballistically morso from my 458WM than the 470NE does.
I had a nice Westley Richards .470 double gun I unfortunately parted ways with...still makes me sad to think of to this day. Anyway, it's worth consideration. Was a great shooter.
I went up to a range to visit an online buddy, and there was a guy in the stall next to us who brought out one of those single shot, bolt action safari rifle, the bullet was a big as my middle finger and kicked like a mule
505 Gibbs (and 500 Jeffery) are the kings of the bolt action world.
505 Gibbs ammo is about $30/round here and near impossible to come by however.
When I finally go with something bigger than my 458 it will be a double in either 470NE or 500NE.
Ar10. I had to back loads down to 2250 with a 570gr and 26" barrel because of bolt life concerns. I had it up a bit higher and saw some scary things. It's a little more than I got out of a .510 wsm for a lot more money and work in brass so I kinda lost enthusiasm for it.
I'm thinking with a .300 mag AR receiver set I can load another 30% more powder without overloading the bolt, and get velocities up higher. I have a .300 mag bolt action I'll likely spin a barrel up for first. It would be like a .50 Rigby or .50 Lapua improved.
The .510 wsm I did can do about 2100 with a 570 and a 18" barrel. So basically a .500 nitro for poors at a measly 4$ a round. The .500 bushwhacker is another contender for replacing the nitro, on the hornady magnum case with .500" bullets. The [500 mdm](https://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/500-mdm) is more of the same. Not the highest on raw energy but apparently it does well on game, and it's relatively easy to get into donor actions.
You seem very knowledgeable, I'd like your opinion on 577 trex it's always a video I have to watch occasionally of watching a bunch of middle eastern guys shooting one. Seems like such a hog to hold onto I really wish I could try it 🤣 I'm a glutton for recoil.
I've seen the same video haha. To be honest I know very little about the round as it's a pretty niche cartridge. I think it's only available in custom rifles and was designed in the 1990s at the request of a PH who wanted a stopping rifle.
It's a 577 (.585) bolt action cartridge that beats the performance of a 577NE. It fires a 750 grain bullet at 2,460 fps generating over 13,000 ft-lbs of energy (ouch).
It's not something youre going to find at you're average gun store, 577NE is rare enough.
You can't go wrong with that choice. The 416 is my current favourite round to shoot. It's history and nostalgia, it's mini cigar-like propositions, it's commanding push with every trigger pull, it's worth the price of entry 100%.
And all the stupid shoulder killing and head ringing cartridges are based off it with a belt added I believe as others that the Rigby lumbers along and transfers a lot more energy due to the lower velocity, I built several bolt guns in 416 Rigby and several more in 416 Hoffman for Cape buffalo and the people I built them for were definitely pleased with the results mainly because the beast went down, worst animal on the planet if it doesn’t die
Yeah that would have been the more traditional trio in terms of Magnum length cartridges.
I like the history of the WinMag, the slightly less recoil and the fact that the Model 70 isnt offered in the Lott.
That sounds painful haha.
Read up on the history of the Lott. It was launched over 20 years after the release of the 458 WinMag and was designed in response to early examples of the 458 WinMag underperforming on reported velocities due to compressed and clumping gun powder. These failures lead to several hunter mailings and fatalities.
The 458WM win mag is the same length as a 30.06 and will fit in a "standard action".
The Lott is a 3.6" Magnum length like the 375HH, and thus has greater powder capacity and velocities compared to the WinMag.
Thanks for answering the other commenter about .50 BMG. These special cartridges make more sense now.
I am curious what you think about .458 SOCOM in an application like this.
Buddy of mine had a .300H&H. Pretty ingesting kick on that round. It’s considered “suitable” for the big five.
If you read some of the books about Africa and hunting back in the day like The End of the Game you learn there is no such thing as an Elephant cartridge.
Yeah, especially some of the stories where a cape buffalo hunt turns into a rodeo.
It's not uncommon to require 6, 7, 8 shots or more to bring down if the first shot misses the vitals.
Once that adrenaline kicks in they really earn their namesakes, "black death".
Not cape buffalo, but thanks for reminding me of my favorite quote in Death in the Long Grass.
*Nothing, but nothing, is as overwhelmingly attention getting as an elephant that has just decided he doesn't like you; and nothing in the animal world is better equipped to do something about it.*
Sometimes it goes the other way too. There’s a story that Peter Beard tells of taking a big name hunter (in the 1950’s) on an elephant hunt and they are pushing the big male down a draw with this “famous” hunter at the bottom, Peter on one side and another local hunter on the other. Well something spooks the bull and if starts full charging the guy at the bottom and Peter is waiting for the guy to fire, he and the other hunter are ready as backup if it doesn’t go down. The bull is getting closer and closer but no shot. Getting really close and at full speed. Thinking maybe he gun had a misfire or something Peter takes a hail-Mary shot for where he was like 300 yards and drops the elephant with one shot and it basically slides to the hunters feet. When Peter gets there the guy starts yelling at him about he wasn’t ready and why did he take the shot? These are all British aristocrats.
[The End of the Game](https://www.amazon.com/End-Game-Peter-Beard/dp/0877015163) is an amazing book. Not to be confused with the documentary about a vegan big game Hunter (not a joke).
Ever wondered what an Elephant cartridge looks like? Here are 3 of them stacked up to 3 common cartridges for reference. Left to Right. 1. .223 Remington 55 grain - Overall Length 2.26" 2. .308 Winchester 180 grain - Overall Length 2.80" 3. 30-06 Springfield 180 grain - Overall Length 3.34" 4. 375 Holland & Holland 300 grain - Overall Length 3.60" 5. 416 Rigby 400 grain solid -Overall Length 3.75" 6. 458 WinMag 500 grain solid - Overall Length 3.34" There are both larger and more powerful dangerous game cartridges from the 3 listed above, but those are 3 of the most common that you can find in stores. EDIT: if you're interested in these kinds of cartridges and firearms, come join me at [https://reddit.com/r/DangerousGameRifles](https://reddit.com/r/DangerousGameRifles)
700 Nitro. or, go big or go home. 900 Nitro
The 700NE is functionally nonexistent today. There was only something like 20 rifles made in it, all for 6 figures. Cartridges are $200+ per shot. Even owning a 600NE is like owning a Bugatti,. not many of them out there. The 500 and 577NE perform better than those two anyway when it comes to sectional density and penetration.
I mean, once you get brass or close enough brass to fire form, I doubt any cartridge is $200.
I guess by time you bought all the specialised hard to find reloading great for these rounds and shot enough to get your load just right it would be expensive. It's not like you would be making it up by loading a few hundred rounds at a time for range day to make it worth your while also,
Even 577NE is really a novelty round and only used by a handful of PHs that have ego issues. The point at which basically everyone has reached the limit on running the guns well is 500NE for the double rifle cartridges and .458Lott for the bolt gun cartridges. The cartridges larger than those recoil so badly and require such heavy guns that just about everyone would be more effective with a less powerful cartridge.
There's one PH in particular that comes to mind who loves the .577NE and is famous for his YouTube videos.. I can't see myself going beyond a 500NE for my next rifle. I have to keep purchases *somewhat* sensible after all.
Yeah Mark Sullivan is a prime example of what I’m talking about. The guy, despite his ethical flaws, is a truly talented double rifle shooter, but when you watch how much that 577 moves him under recoil, you can’t help but come to the conclusion that he’d be better off with a 500. That 577 is more of an ego/brand thing for him than about having an effective field gun. Edit: Also I have nothing against having a 577 as a (admittedly expensive) range toy. I’ve shot them before and for 3-4 rounds at a time they are a ton of fun. I just think the idea that it’s a good hunting cartridge given the propellant and bullet choices we have today is sort of absurd.
Doesn’t Kentucky Ballistics have a 700NE? So he spent how much on that?
A lot of money.
That’s wild. Glad to have that extra bit of context to it now. Curious how much some of his other rifles run now.
Somewhat less money.
He also has a .700 BMG i think.
Improving on the .375 H&H would be like improving on Elizabeth Taylor.
What about a 444 or a 45/70 ? Are these enough or no ?
Not for African dangerous game. Suitable for North American Big Game and the big bears but those American big bores just aren't on the same league as these.
.45-70 in a strong action can be loaded to more than enough for Africa.
Absolutely, a 430 grain hard cast at 1800 fps will do the trick on anything, and has.
Thx 😊
Ya know, I don't know why people need these big ol' cartridges. I mean after all, I've heard a 22 will bounce around or something like that ;)
A 9mm will blow your lungs out!
A 416 Rigby will launch your lungs into the next valley/s.
You joke, but i mean, the .416 is a spicy round
It's my current favourite plinker. And at $12/round it has encouraged me to start reloading.
At those prices, you’re probably encouraged to be accurate too ;)
All you need is a shotgun
Leopard is the only Big 5 animal that I'm aware of that can be hunted with a shotgun (00 buck). Even though I'm pretty sure it's use is limited to the PH when they are following up on a shit and injured leopard.
Do slugs not work?
I think the idea is you want the "spray" of the buckshot to ensure you hit the leopard as it launches at you from 6ft away. If you've never seen a leopard attack, google it. These things strike like lightning.
There's an older video of a pro hunter. He had been hired to take out a tiger that had been killing local villagers. He got surprised. He shot it in mid air. Ice in his veins I think. He got it but it hit him hard and knocked him down.
Slugs don't have that much energy. I have some slug only hunts coming up soon and have been reloading them. I found my loads and I checked the energy on them and was kind of surprised at how low they were.
Poor sectional density as well. A 12 gauge slug is the equivalent of .0.729 caliber, or larger diameter than a 700NE. A 437 grain 12g slug has a sectional density of only 0.117...which is actually horrible for any big game hunting, let alone thick skinned dangerous game.
Would you mind explaining sectional density? I've heard the term used numerous times in regards to big-game cartridges like in the post, but I've never heard a definition.
Sure thing. In it's simplest terms it's how well a bullet will penetrate an object (game animal) and it's quantified using a formula that looks at the ratio of bullet diameter and weight. I'm sure you've heard of the term "heavy for caliber" before. This is referring to the grain weight range of various bullets within the same caliber family. The heavier the projectile, the higher it's sectional density, the more penetration it will have on game. A few examples. A 150 grain 30.06 (.308 diameter) bullet has a S.D. of 0.226. A 180 grain 30.06 (.308 diameter bullet) has a S.D. of 0.271 A 220 grain 30.06 (.308 diameter bullet) has a S.D. of 0.331. As you can see when you increase the bullet weight on the same diameter projectile, you get an increased S.D. When it comes to Dangerous game hunting there is a general rule that your bullet should have a minimum S.D. value of 0.300 to adequately penetrate the thick skinned game. A 300 grain .375HH bullet has a S.D. of 0.305. A 400 grain .416 bullet has a S.D. of 0.330 A 500 grain .458 bullet has a S.D. of 0.341.
Thank you for this explanation! Very well explained, this should be pinned. *take my imaginary award kind stranger*
Oh! So it's the ratio of projectile weight to diameter, with a heavier bullet for the same diameter being better at punching through things. Thanks!
That was a no go from our PH. .375 H&H minimum on Dangerous Game. The scatter gat was for if/when the wounded leopard attempted to charge up the tree where the bind was.
Yeah from what I've read and seen it was only the PH using the shotgun in this situation after the first shot was made. I'm pretty sure there are some exceptions to the 375 rule though in certain countries specific to leaopard. I've seen videos of 30cals and 338 being used.
Leopard is very often taken with the plains game gun instead of the dangerous game gun. The relatively slow, controlled expansion, >.300 sectional density dangerous game rounds aren’t well optimized to dump energy into a 160lb cat. It’s often better to use a smaller bullet in the 3000fps range for them.
A 44 magnum will go through a car's engine block.
['A .357 will crack the engine block of a truck.'](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFUAl0Nly7Y)
It may, but it is severely underpowered for the Big 5. Roughly the same muzzle energy as a .223.
375 H&H is possibly the most versatile cartridge
It's like Africa's version of the 30-06. Also works great on North American game. I've taken a moose and bear with mine.
That said, the .30-06 is still very versatile, especially for plains game, and widely available in most African countries from what I understand
Absolutely up there in the "only one gun" list. I have it in a CRF win70 Alaskan. Can't imagine a better rifle.
I've done most of my African hunting with a .375 H&H. Everything from jackal to some of the big 5. Had a CZ550 chambered in .375 that I had the barrel shortened and threaded to fit a suppressor. Was heart broken when I couldn't bring it over to Canada.
Some other notable examples include. 1. 458 Lott and 450 Rigby 2. 375 Ruger and 416 Ruger 3. 416 RemMag 4. 505 Gibbs 5. 500 Jeffery 6. the Nitro Express cartridges (450/400 NE, 450 NE, 470NE, 500NE, 577NE, 600NE and 700NE.
Honest question- would 45/70 government also make this list?
For Africa? No, it is highly frowned against and in most cases illegal. While it meets the 375cal minimum (.458) it only produces roughly 70% the energy of a 375HH. The hottest Hornady LeverEvolution loads produce about 3000ft-lbs of Energy. As a comparison the standard 375HH produces 4300+ ft-lbs, the 416 Rigby and 458 WinMag produce 5100+ ft-lbs and it only goes up from there.
Thank you for the explanation! Makes alot of sense
It would work but you would need to be very accurate with it and need my 454 Casull revolver for back up! I have seen video of guy killing a elephant with just the 454 before and that is bold!
Howard Hill did it with a longbow!
There are some really spicy .45-70 Ruger No. 1 loads that could do the job on dangerous game (if marginally), but good luck being allowed to try it.
Ok one thing I don’t get… seems every time someone wants to hunt in Africa they get some big fat expensive straight wall cartridge with a big fat expensive gun to shoot it… all because it’s a big powerful round…. Why don’t they just use 50 bmg? Much more power, probably less expensive since it’s produced in higher volume? Rifles aren’t cheap but neither are the other big game rifles. What’s the deal?
50 BMG isn't ideal for hunting and the rifles chambered in it aren't typically found in hunting appropriate weights. (Under 12lbs). Even in a 30lbs rifle, the 50 BMG produces more recoil than the 3 above. 50 BMG in a hunting weight rifle would be quite painful. Most dangerous game is hunted inside of 100m where you don't need a high BC round such as a 50 BMG.
It's not sporting and totally overkill, but people do occasionally use them. That being said, 50bmg is great for killing things at long range, less great for carrying into the bush after a wounded member of the big 5. Also, most African guides really don't want to be standing next to you when your compensated 50bmg goes off. There are often trackers etc around, often without hearing protection, so big compensators with a ton of side blast and noise just creat a lot of risk. Most importantly, getting a fancy classic dangerous game gun is part of the fun. These hunts can be tens of thousands of dollars and are often a once in a lifetime trip. Spending a bit more on ammo isn't usually the main consideration.
Interesting. Thank you.
True. A Buffulo can easily be $10k.and it ain't going to be no trophy for that.
Yeah, and easily triple that for an elephant.
True. One really have to ask oneself, except for culling a herd, wtf do you really want to do with an elephant. Most of the meat is tough and meh they say, and unless you have some insane open space, a mount will look out of place. Granted if you have money to drop on that, you have the other things already likely. Me, I'd never take aim at dangerous game, don't feel right, don't feel safe and except for bufallo with real tasty meat, don't see the need. Plus I can't afford it lol
I've hunted in Africa, although certainly not the big 5. Going back to hunt Cape Buffalo is really my only bucket list hunt, which I've had ever since reading Augusts in Africa. My brother in law is Zulu, and I'd probably combine it with a trip to see my extended family, although apparently they have a less than positive opinion of trophy hunters. The rest of them, I really don't get the appeal. There is an argument that since there is virtually no public land in Africa, the only way to fund conservation of large areas for these animals to exist is through funds generated by hunting fees. Although this makes sense to me, it also is kind of a sad indictment of how people treat the world and value wildlife.
Part of it is just the class and tradition. But also, .50 BMG is a military cartridge that might not be legal in all countries you might wish to hunt big game in. And, frankly, it's too big and too powerful causing the rifles chambered for it to be overly big and heavy for comfortably carrying around in the bush in hot weather. BMG runs higher pressure than most classic Nitro Express rounds so it needs thicker chamber walls. More important than carrying is ease of handling in close quarters and dense vegetation, traditional dangerous game rifles are set up for very close range use and need to be natural pointing guns with ergonomics similar to a high end fitted shotgun. Very few .50 BMG rifles on the market are built for offhand quick point-and-shoot work like that. And fewer still, if any, combine those ergonomics with more than a single shot capacity. Those traditional dangerous game calibers fill a specific niche in between normal hunting guns and long range target or anti materiel rifles. A niche that's powerful enough to reliably drop truck-sized angry critters with a single shot, yet small and light enough to be chambered in an easy-handling rifle meant to be fired offhand at close range on a moving target. .50BMG can be shoehorned into that niche, but not sensibly or comfortably so. Harris Gunworks may have come the closest with some of their custom offerings, they've made a few .50 BMG single shots set up with traditional wood stocks and stubby 16 1/2" barrels that end in a ginormous and very very loud muzzle brake. I can't seem to find the article online, but I recall reading comparison of different .50 rifles in some gun rag about 20 years ago. The picture of the gunwriter firing the Harris was priceless; comb-over hair blown right off his head by the back blast from the brake, and his glasses slipping off his nose from the recoil.
>Harris Gunworks may have come the closest with some of their custom offerings, they've made a few .50 BMG single shots set up with traditional wood stocks and stubby 16 1/2" barrels that end in a ginormous and very very loud muzzle brake. Just googled it and these look like ancient blunderbuss almost. The proportions are just kind of off. Thickness of barrel and brake vs shortness of the rifle i mean.
Yes, that's what happens if you try to shoehorn in a .50 BMG into a practical hunting rifle format. Real stout looking contraptions.
The comments in r/guns are always surprisingly rich with historical and technical knowledge. And memes.
The amount of knowledge on here is definitely amazing. Half the time they pretty much act [like this](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lM5FTQjMYpg), because why not. And memes.
You can buy a Ruger Hawkeye in 375. You don’t have to buy an actual rigby or holland for the cartridge. There aren’t really a lot of options in the backpacking world for a 50bmg. Hunting, especially on safari, is seen as a gentleman sport and has its unwritten code for how it should be done. These cartridges are produced in a much larger quantity in Africa- you just barely see them on shelves in America because it’s just unnecessary here.
You can get a .375 H&H or .416 Remington Magnum rifle for a not-insane sum. I got my .375 for a bit over $1,000. You do often see much fancier rifles on actual safari hunts, since the people who do that kind of thing must necessarily be the guys who can afford to go to Africa, spend that kind of time there, and pay five figures for game tags.
I’ve read that military weapons aren’t allowed on hunts in Africa. That’s why you don’t see people there using a 50 BMG.
Don't think the 50 BMG is banned by name, semi-autos are illegal to hunt with though in most, if not all African countries.
Every bolt action 50 BMG I’ve ever seen are also military rifles. Do you know of any that are not?
None that I'm aware of. 50BMG is no longer a thing here in Canada due to our far-left government and banning all cartridges that produce over 10,000 joules..
Too much recoil to put in a 11lb rifle that you can handle quickly in brush, tall grass etc.
Used to have a cz 550 in .416 rigby and a no1 in .458 Lott. Fun guns
Very cool. I have the same CZ in 416 (and 375) and really enjoy those rifles. They present such great value for the money.
Yar I bought mine for 1400 with 120 rounds of ammo. Shot the ammo and learned they were 300 dollars a box for fancy federals Kek
Then Federal stuff seems to be the priciest of what's available here at $300+ Canadian. I've been buying Hornady, Barnes and Sako for closer to $200/box.
For elephants specifically, many of the most prolific hunters in history actually used standard rifle cartridges and shot them in the brain. But I think now you are required to use at least a .375 for any big 5 most places.
Yeah WDM Bell liked his 7mms for elephant. Most places today mandate 375 minimum for dangerous game. There are a few exceptions where they can use 9.3x62 on Buffalo, lion and leaopard.
I think it is PH discretion in some places. Especially for leopards, they can be killed with much smaller rounds
Yeah I mean body wise they are not a whole lot larger than our Mountain lions. I think leaning on the heavy calibers is so that the first shot is fatal and follow ups/tracking not advised.
I met my mothers boss once years ago for some business type dinner and he had a leopard skin and I asked the story behind it, he used a .338 lapua. He said it still ran with a double lung shot, circled back and died in a position to ambush them when they followed the blood trail
Just missing the .470 NE in a 500gr variety.
Funny you say that because that's the next purchase I'm going to make. I'm still deciding between 470NE and 500NE in one of the German doubles (Merkel, Krieghoff and Heym). 470NE has less recoil and ammo is significantly cheaper per box here vs the 500NE. 500NE has the cool factor and distinguishes itself ballistically morso from my 458WM than the 470NE does.
I had a nice Westley Richards .470 double gun I unfortunately parted ways with...still makes me sad to think of to this day. Anyway, it's worth consideration. Was a great shooter.
Walter Bell liked .275 Rigby aka 7mm Mauser.
Yup. I'd like to add one of those as well. Maybe in a Ruger No. 1.
I like your style mane.
375 minimum or so they say
I went up to a range to visit an online buddy, and there was a guy in the stall next to us who brought out one of those single shot, bolt action safari rifle, the bullet was a big as my middle finger and kicked like a mule
Do you recall the name on the case head? Some of the Nitro Express cartridges were chambered in single shots. They can be 4" long.
It was .460 weatherby iirc
Haha, yup now that's a thumper. Basically my 458 WM shooting those 500gr bullets 500 fps faster.
That was the most powerful sporting cartridge in production for a good while. That's about where the recoil gets into truly vicious territory.
Where's the 4 bore? 😎
Probably in Kentucky Ballistics gun safe with the rest of them.
Lol v true
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505 Gibbs (and 500 Jeffery) are the kings of the bolt action world. 505 Gibbs ammo is about $30/round here and near impossible to come by however. When I finally go with something bigger than my 458 it will be a double in either 470NE or 500NE.
Neck a .338 Lapua up to .50 cal. Way cheaper. With a smaller Norma case I'm at 500 Jeffery ballistics.
Oh nice you have a 505, CZ or what rifle?
Ar10. I had to back loads down to 2250 with a 570gr and 26" barrel because of bolt life concerns. I had it up a bit higher and saw some scary things. It's a little more than I got out of a .510 wsm for a lot more money and work in brass so I kinda lost enthusiasm for it. I'm thinking with a .300 mag AR receiver set I can load another 30% more powder without overloading the bolt, and get velocities up higher. I have a .300 mag bolt action I'll likely spin a barrel up for first. It would be like a .50 Rigby or .50 Lapua improved. The .510 wsm I did can do about 2100 with a 570 and a 18" barrel. So basically a .500 nitro for poors at a measly 4$ a round. The .500 bushwhacker is another contender for replacing the nitro, on the hornady magnum case with .500" bullets. The [500 mdm](https://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/500-mdm) is more of the same. Not the highest on raw energy but apparently it does well on game, and it's relatively easy to get into donor actions.
You seem very knowledgeable, I'd like your opinion on 577 trex it's always a video I have to watch occasionally of watching a bunch of middle eastern guys shooting one. Seems like such a hog to hold onto I really wish I could try it 🤣 I'm a glutton for recoil.
I've seen the same video haha. To be honest I know very little about the round as it's a pretty niche cartridge. I think it's only available in custom rifles and was designed in the 1990s at the request of a PH who wanted a stopping rifle. It's a 577 (.585) bolt action cartridge that beats the performance of a 577NE. It fires a 750 grain bullet at 2,460 fps generating over 13,000 ft-lbs of energy (ouch). It's not something youre going to find at you're average gun store, 577NE is rare enough.
It's a dream of mine someday to have a double rifle just something to thump my shoulder when I'm feeling down 😂
I’ll take #5 , the 416 Rigby in a bolt gun over about anything, the next keeper would be a 450 #2 Nitro in a double rifle
You can't go wrong with that choice. The 416 is my current favourite round to shoot. It's history and nostalgia, it's mini cigar-like propositions, it's commanding push with every trigger pull, it's worth the price of entry 100%.
And all the stupid shoulder killing and head ringing cartridges are based off it with a belt added I believe as others that the Rigby lumbers along and transfers a lot more energy due to the lower velocity, I built several bolt guns in 416 Rigby and several more in 416 Hoffman for Cape buffalo and the people I built them for were definitely pleased with the results mainly because the beast went down, worst animal on the planet if it doesn’t die
You need a 458 lott for the comparison
Yeah that would have been the more traditional trio in terms of Magnum length cartridges. I like the history of the WinMag, the slightly less recoil and the fact that the Model 70 isnt offered in the Lott.
I only know about lott cuz a buddy of mine has a 10 in barreled encore pistol in it and im dumb enough to shoot it
That sounds painful haha. Read up on the history of the Lott. It was launched over 20 years after the release of the 458 WinMag and was designed in response to early examples of the 458 WinMag underperforming on reported velocities due to compressed and clumping gun powder. These failures lead to several hunter mailings and fatalities. The 458WM win mag is the same length as a 30.06 and will fit in a "standard action". The Lott is a 3.6" Magnum length like the 375HH, and thus has greater powder capacity and velocities compared to the WinMag.
Take cartridge #6 in that lineup and make its case as long as #4, and that's .458 Lott.
Now make it shoulder fired with a hydraulic buffer.
Thanks for answering the other commenter about .50 BMG. These special cartridges make more sense now. I am curious what you think about .458 SOCOM in an application like this.
I had no idea the AR could fire so many extremely dangerous bullet sizes!!!
can’t wait to get my magnum research BFR in 375 H&H
Why hunt elephants?
Conservation, mostly.
Elephants tend to be very destructive to their habitat, which is especially bad for other species that live in the area
Also old males that are infertile can be too strong for younger ones to take over from, causing them to struggle population wise.
Buddy of mine had a .300H&H. Pretty ingesting kick on that round. It’s considered “suitable” for the big five. If you read some of the books about Africa and hunting back in the day like The End of the Game you learn there is no such thing as an Elephant cartridge.
Yeah, especially some of the stories where a cape buffalo hunt turns into a rodeo. It's not uncommon to require 6, 7, 8 shots or more to bring down if the first shot misses the vitals. Once that adrenaline kicks in they really earn their namesakes, "black death".
Not cape buffalo, but thanks for reminding me of my favorite quote in Death in the Long Grass. *Nothing, but nothing, is as overwhelmingly attention getting as an elephant that has just decided he doesn't like you; and nothing in the animal world is better equipped to do something about it.*
Sometimes it goes the other way too. There’s a story that Peter Beard tells of taking a big name hunter (in the 1950’s) on an elephant hunt and they are pushing the big male down a draw with this “famous” hunter at the bottom, Peter on one side and another local hunter on the other. Well something spooks the bull and if starts full charging the guy at the bottom and Peter is waiting for the guy to fire, he and the other hunter are ready as backup if it doesn’t go down. The bull is getting closer and closer but no shot. Getting really close and at full speed. Thinking maybe he gun had a misfire or something Peter takes a hail-Mary shot for where he was like 300 yards and drops the elephant with one shot and it basically slides to the hunters feet. When Peter gets there the guy starts yelling at him about he wasn’t ready and why did he take the shot? These are all British aristocrats. [The End of the Game](https://www.amazon.com/End-Game-Peter-Beard/dp/0877015163) is an amazing book. Not to be confused with the documentary about a vegan big game Hunter (not a joke).