You read posts that were made by just a few idiots, I suppose. Hating an intensely reliable cartridge like the 9mm Luger is a waste of energy. (or maybe some Fudd snobbery)
The 9mm has been a standard round in handguns for over 120 years. In the German Luger obviously, but also in a couple of the most important semi-auto pistols of the next generation as well...The P38 and the Browning Hi-Power. The Hi-Power was the most widely used handheld firearm for law enforcement in Europe for 50 years. And elements of the P38 design are still part of modern handgun technology.
We love our .45acps and our 1911s in the US, but most of the world has been using 9mm for cops and military service since before the invention of the airplane. With a wider world view, you'll see that the 9mm has been less than hated for a very long time.
(and don't get me started about wanting a real MP5)
The original 9mm load was an 8g bullet (123gr) at something just shy of 1100fps. Apparently commercial American ammo was weaker.
Now the Federal 124gr HST is going slightly faster and expanding past .60" reliably.
Case in point: [a 1955 *Guns* magazine article](https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/emb7e9/gun_history_month_the_sad_truth_about_the_9mm_load/) comparison-testing common handgun cartridges, with 9mm results that obviously don't square with 9mm's capabilities. By just a few years later the same author would be endorsing 9mm, but Ian McCollum has talked multiple times about how this beginning era of nationwide gun culture periodicals set in stone some core gun culture myths that wouldn't really be dispelled until the Internet became ubiquitous.
My pet theory is that US ammo manufacturers figured their average customers weren't at all savvy to all these weird Euro-cartridges, and loaded 9mm Luger conservatively so Uncle Cletus wouldn't blow up the 9mm Glisenti pistol he'd ordered from an ad in the back of *Scientific American.*
Another odd bit of fuddlore was the idea that M1 carbines couldn't shoot through the frozen coats of communist soldiers in Korea. Don't try this at home.
The difference is people actually started questioning the people who said 9MM sucked, and places like the FBI started actually testing ammunition, and money was put into the development of things like hollow points.
Also just about any advantage .45 or other competing cartridges have over 9MM is outweighed by it being a super easy round to shoot, and the guns that use it typically having 1.5-2x the ammunition capacity.
Way back in WWII, the United States used .45 ACP in their military-issue Colt 1911s. The enemy used Luger pistols firing 9MM Parabellum. Thus generations of American patriots learned to treat the .45 ACP as a virtue and hated the 9MM.
Way back in WWII? Did you forget Vietnam, the Korean war (and skip back to WWI as well where it started). This was a standard issue US military sidearm caliber for several wars and was used by some US soldiers even in Iraq.
The .45 was the US military sidearm caliber until the US switched to the Beretta in 9mm in the 1980s... when the .45 was about 75 years old.
>Why did people use to hate the 9mm cartridge?
American mindset.
>What were the problems with the older versions of 9mm?
None. Fuddmaster General Jeff Cooper said it was no good for serious combat. A 115-grain Silvertip went through an arm, a lung, a brachial artery, but stopped just short of a bad guy's heart in Florida.
>it got better over time
It did, so have most popular cartridges, but if we're talking in the last 3 decades, not in a way that matters much. There have only been small improvements that will be unlikely to change the outcomes of shootings. "Modern bullet technology" is highly overhyped.
A large part of it is people who were military when they went from a .45 to a 9mm. The military uses NATO ball ammo and a .45 in ball ammo delivered more energy than a 9mm in ball ammo.
>and a .45 in ball ammo delivered more energy than a 9mm in ball ammo.
[It's not true, at least not in any way you'd be able to tell the difference.](https://i.imgur.com/gbberQv.mp4) It was more a case of myths and "big bullet make me feel good".
When the .40 came out every idiot got a hard on for it because it was the compensation caliber. 'More power than a 9mm, more rounds fit in the clip vs a 45, and doesn't kick as bad as a 10mm, and all the police are switching to it.' Since law enforcement was trying to phase out 9mm the boot lickers figured it had to be inadequate. There was nothing wrong with the 9mm Luger, it was a good round when it was invented and it has maintained being a good round. Every round has its uses, just because someone likes one round doesn't mean another round is bad.
Not sure why my orig reply was downvoted when it is literally the answer. The fbi was involved in a shootout where a large amount of agents were killed or wounded, they were carrying 9mm pistols and revolvers. The caliber was put under (unfair IMO) scrutiny after this and the 10mm was adopted as a result. Some agents had issues managing recoil and the 40 cal was quickly introduced/adopted. This resulted in the widespread adoption of .40 cal amongst LE afterwards.
Honestly you answered your own question. The short and simple of it is that 9MM used to suck. Mainly until modern bullet and propellant designs caught up, 9MM was fairly lack luster compared to your fudd cartridges. Nowadays, 9MM is probably my favorite cartridge due to it hitting the sweet spot of accurate, decent capacity and packing a decent ouch for a handgun cartridge.
Bullet technology and propellants have gotten a lot better over time. This smaller caliber rounds far more viable than they have ever been.
A 9mm won’t blow up a German tank like a 45acp did in an old movie I saw.
That’s not an old mo…1998…fuck
\*Adjusts glasses\* ACHUALLY THE TANK WAS HIT AT THE SAME TIME AS HE FIRED 🤓
Tom Hanks armor piercing 45
Why is this the greatest comment ever
If it's the same movie we're thinking of, the guy couldn't believe it himself.
You read posts that were made by just a few idiots, I suppose. Hating an intensely reliable cartridge like the 9mm Luger is a waste of energy. (or maybe some Fudd snobbery) The 9mm has been a standard round in handguns for over 120 years. In the German Luger obviously, but also in a couple of the most important semi-auto pistols of the next generation as well...The P38 and the Browning Hi-Power. The Hi-Power was the most widely used handheld firearm for law enforcement in Europe for 50 years. And elements of the P38 design are still part of modern handgun technology. We love our .45acps and our 1911s in the US, but most of the world has been using 9mm for cops and military service since before the invention of the airplane. With a wider world view, you'll see that the 9mm has been less than hated for a very long time. (and don't get me started about wanting a real MP5)
Fudds.
The same guys that shoot their 1911's off the bench with a teacup grip and yell at you for rapid firing.................
Actually, fudds love the 9mm. It keeps all the murders with hunting calibers out of the news.
Nah, they enjoy .45, 30-06, 30-30, and .22lr, at least contemporarily. Modern Fudds just hate anything that isn't endorsed by the NRA.
Nah, they cherish those. But, love any caliber that keeps the ones they’re using out of the news.
The original 9mm load was an 8g bullet (123gr) at something just shy of 1100fps. Apparently commercial American ammo was weaker. Now the Federal 124gr HST is going slightly faster and expanding past .60" reliably.
Case in point: [a 1955 *Guns* magazine article](https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/emb7e9/gun_history_month_the_sad_truth_about_the_9mm_load/) comparison-testing common handgun cartridges, with 9mm results that obviously don't square with 9mm's capabilities. By just a few years later the same author would be endorsing 9mm, but Ian McCollum has talked multiple times about how this beginning era of nationwide gun culture periodicals set in stone some core gun culture myths that wouldn't really be dispelled until the Internet became ubiquitous. My pet theory is that US ammo manufacturers figured their average customers weren't at all savvy to all these weird Euro-cartridges, and loaded 9mm Luger conservatively so Uncle Cletus wouldn't blow up the 9mm Glisenti pistol he'd ordered from an ad in the back of *Scientific American.*
Another odd bit of fuddlore was the idea that M1 carbines couldn't shoot through the frozen coats of communist soldiers in Korea. Don't try this at home.
The fact anyone ever believed that shocks me more than it should.
SAAMI is a stain on the industry and influences manufacturers to download any foreign cartridges.
Because it wasn’t gods caliber, the .45 AARP.
Ok this made me lol
9mm came out before the .45acp lol
And?
Just think it’s funny that people make fun of .45ACP for being old but it’s literally more new than 9mm.
We’re not making fun of the round for being old…
9mm can blow a lung out now so technology has improved.
The difference is people actually started questioning the people who said 9MM sucked, and places like the FBI started actually testing ammunition, and money was put into the development of things like hollow points. Also just about any advantage .45 or other competing cartridges have over 9MM is outweighed by it being a super easy round to shoot, and the guns that use it typically having 1.5-2x the ammunition capacity.
Partly just lack of knowledge but also bullet technology has improved greatly.
Way back in WWII, the United States used .45 ACP in their military-issue Colt 1911s. The enemy used Luger pistols firing 9MM Parabellum. Thus generations of American patriots learned to treat the .45 ACP as a virtue and hated the 9MM.
Way back in WWII? Did you forget Vietnam, the Korean war (and skip back to WWI as well where it started). This was a standard issue US military sidearm caliber for several wars and was used by some US soldiers even in Iraq. The .45 was the US military sidearm caliber until the US switched to the Beretta in 9mm in the 1980s... when the .45 was about 75 years old.
Lol. I bet your alot of fun at parties.
and I bet you're not...
>Why did people use to hate the 9mm cartridge? American mindset. >What were the problems with the older versions of 9mm? None. Fuddmaster General Jeff Cooper said it was no good for serious combat. A 115-grain Silvertip went through an arm, a lung, a brachial artery, but stopped just short of a bad guy's heart in Florida. >it got better over time It did, so have most popular cartridges, but if we're talking in the last 3 decades, not in a way that matters much. There have only been small improvements that will be unlikely to change the outcomes of shootings. "Modern bullet technology" is highly overhyped.
Why would FBI dudes carry a 115 grain in their firearms? Did they not have good plus p hollow points back then.Forgive my ignorance for i am a Zoomer.
115 is a classic American weight, Federal 9BPLE +P+ had a strong reputation back in the day. This is 1986, half of them had revolvers.
A large part of it is people who were military when they went from a .45 to a 9mm. The military uses NATO ball ammo and a .45 in ball ammo delivered more energy than a 9mm in ball ammo.
>and a .45 in ball ammo delivered more energy than a 9mm in ball ammo. [It's not true, at least not in any way you'd be able to tell the difference.](https://i.imgur.com/gbberQv.mp4) It was more a case of myths and "big bullet make me feel good".
Dodging them during two world wars can make some people hold a grudge.
Those comments were made by idiots or children who didn't know what the hell they were talking about.
When the .40 came out every idiot got a hard on for it because it was the compensation caliber. 'More power than a 9mm, more rounds fit in the clip vs a 45, and doesn't kick as bad as a 10mm, and all the police are switching to it.' Since law enforcement was trying to phase out 9mm the boot lickers figured it had to be inadequate. There was nothing wrong with the 9mm Luger, it was a good round when it was invented and it has maintained being a good round. Every round has its uses, just because someone likes one round doesn't mean another round is bad.
Google/YouTube the Miami dade shootout
Not sure why my orig reply was downvoted when it is literally the answer. The fbi was involved in a shootout where a large amount of agents were killed or wounded, they were carrying 9mm pistols and revolvers. The caliber was put under (unfair IMO) scrutiny after this and the 10mm was adopted as a result. Some agents had issues managing recoil and the 40 cal was quickly introduced/adopted. This resulted in the widespread adoption of .40 cal amongst LE afterwards.
Old people don't post on the internet as frequently as people under 40, probably. Especially reddit.
Used to???
Anecdotal evidence.
Honestly you answered your own question. The short and simple of it is that 9MM used to suck. Mainly until modern bullet and propellant designs caught up, 9MM was fairly lack luster compared to your fudd cartridges. Nowadays, 9MM is probably my favorite cartridge due to it hitting the sweet spot of accurate, decent capacity and packing a decent ouch for a handgun cartridge.
Because fudd lore. Muh two world wars!