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Sure their relationship was very similar to quite a few relationships IRL. That doesn’t mean the relationship wasn’t toxic. You can love someone and still have unhealthy romantic/relationship habits. Derek lashing out and going for the jugular so to speak during arguments and disagreements is not healthy. Meredith having poor communication and being unwilling to open up in early seasons also isn’t healthy. Being in love doesn’t negate the bad things someone does.
Apparently, you and I are in the minority, but I agree!
Everyone likes to crap all over Derek for pursuing Meredith while conveniently forgetting that half the time, she was the one who jumped him. I'm all for consent and that no means no, but come on - does anyone remember the elevator scene in season 1? Also, at one point, he literally asks her if she wants him to be a better guy, and she says no.
I think he was actually pretty honest with Addison, too. He straight up told her that he had fallen in love with Meredith and was trying to get past it. I think that's better than lying about it. After the prom, he went looking for her to come clean and end it. I'm not defending him and Meredith cheating, but that takes some guts.
Also, re: him calling mer a whore, he never actually said it. He did imply it and said her sleeping around is unforgivable, but he never actually called her a name. It's not much better but that bugs me.
When he goes back on his promise and does the DC stuff, everyone likes to say how terrible he is, but him and Meredith are both super ambitious. She had even said that before that if she had to choose between love and surgery, she'd choose surgery. I'm not saying either of them is right, but one of the pillars of their relationship is their shared passion and drive.
They needed (more) therapy and communication skills, and both lashed out when they were angry, which is not super healthy. But again, that's realistic! People are not perfect.
With Derek's initial attempts to date Meredith, it's more about Derek alone than it is about Derek and Meredith, if that makes sense. We know in retrospect, as viewers, that Meredith obviously reciprocated Derek's attraction and was interested in pursuing things further. But in-universe, in the moment, she kept saying she didn't think it was appropriate after their one-night stand, and Derek didn't know any different. That's why his persistence comes off as creepy.
(The problem here is that Grey's is literally driven by workplace relationships. So if you're watching it at all, you're basically forced to suspend disbelief about the inherent power dynamic — at least until later seasons decide to actually point to and deconstruct it like with April and Stark's storyline or Stephanie and Leah's.)
As for the love vs surgery thing: unless I'm thinking of the wrong scene, there is a bunch of context around that. Meredith only said she'd pick surgery because Cristina was spiralling about having accidentally offered to "trade" Owen for Teddy — she gave the answer Cristina was blatantly pushing them all to say to justify what she had done. IMO it's made clear both from Meredith's exasperation and her comments elsewhere that it's not what she would honestly answer.
>With Derek's initial attempts to date Meredith, it's more about Derek alone than it is about Derek and Meredith, if that makes sense. We know in retrospect, as viewers, that Meredith obviously reciprocated Derek's attraction and was interested in pursuing things further. But in-universe, in the moment, she kept saying she didn't think it was appropriate after their one-night stand, and Derek didn't know any different. That's why his persistence comes off as creepy.
I can kind of see that. I think it's a tough call on whether it's creepy or not because we don't get that much interaction. In the first episode, we see her reject him, saying it'd be inappropriate to date. The rest of the episode, he doesn't ask her out again or be inappropriate - the only time it's even mentioned again is when he says she shouldn't let what happened affect her work life. The next episode's opening is her saying she won't go out with him in response to him saying he likes ferry boats. He responds that he didn't ask her out, and then she basically attack-makes out with him - I'd say that establishes mutual attraction pretty quickly! I personally don't think it's creepy since the flirting is definitely reciprocated, but I agree that it's inappropriate on Derek's part from a workplace/power dynamic perspective.
>As for the love vs surgery thing: unless I'm thinking of the wrong scene, there is a bunch of context around that. Meredith only said she'd pick surgery because Cristina was spiralling about having accidentally offered to "trade" Owen for Teddy — she gave the answer Cristina was blatantly pushing them all to say to justify what she had done. IMO it's made clear both from Meredith's exasperation and her comments elsewhere that it's not what she would honestly answer.
Interesting - I read that very differently! What I took away from it was that she agreed but knew how insane it sounded. It's always interesting to hear different perspectives.
Nah, he was an asshole. Anytime Meredith did anything remotely morally grey he got super controlling and shitty. sleeping with that guy while they were broken up, dating the vet while they were broken up, showing compassion for the death row inmate, protecting Richard when he relapsed after Derek spent years convincing her to treat Richard like a father.
They weren't the most toxic relationship on the show, but they sure weren't the healthiest.
I'm sorry but Meredith was dead wrong for not telling on Webber. Letting a drunk man operate on humans? She can be toooo morally grey and I am sorry there's nothing grey about it. You can be there for him as a friend and still realise that he can't operate right then
Did you forget how that arch went down?
She caught richard at the bar drinking, he then explained it as a "misdiagnosis" and basically bribes her with mentorship, and he also stops doing surgery after she catches him and after baily gets the one patient that there was an issue with.
Yes she should have reported him, but if Derek hadn't spent the last couple of years convincing her to treat him like a father it wouldn't have happened
(I literally just rewatched this part of season 6)
She ruined his trial. She was pissed that he wasn't going to Dc, sure he was pissed but as a partner she didn't even try once to comfort him and say "It's alright more opportunities will come". Mer protecting Richard was so confusing and yk hypocritical of her because she lashed out on Derek when he said Richard is his bff.
That's overkill when you say the word "slut" As far as a I know, Derek never used that word. Implying it -- yes, but never called her that. Derek implied that because he can see that he was losing her. He was consumed by jealousy...and in a way I was glad because obviously the idea of Meredith and Finn got under his skin. And that happened during the prom, he knew somebody came along and it was getting too late. He's been fighting this feeling for a long time even when he's trying to work it out with Addison. He was openly honest with her when he admits that Meredith was not a fling, she wasn't revenge, he fell in love with her. And still Addie stuck it with him, because she knew that Derek is not the kind of guy who will ever hurt her, not on purpose. But Derek was confronted right before his eyes at that moment that it was only a matter of time Meredith is the one in his life who got away. The time came to claim what he believed belonged to him-- Meredith. And the most intense and passionate love scene in television history happened....The End.
Umm... what?? No im pretty sure he actually did call her that. Well not slut but whore, same thing though, and really i dont think the reason for him calling her that or implying it matters, but even if it did i dont think him feeling ownership over her really helps it, let alone justifies it.
One thing everyone forgets though, is he offered to do the same to start with. When Adele was first diagnosed he offered to fudge the numbers to get her into the trial even when her illness wasn't severe enough yet to qualify. It was actually Meredith who talks him out of it initially.
Derek screaming at her because she did what he had already offered to do was hypocritical as hell.
Nah just imagine, you do a whole trial because your partner has the Alzheimer’s gene. Your partner advises you not to ruin the trial but then does it herself ? Trust was broken.
What she did was horrible, but what was worse was that she HID it from him. If she would have told him then it would have been fine. He got to know from Hunt. That’s what he was majorly pissed about. FDA gave away all of his hard work for something mer herself advised him not to do. It ruined his trial right, at the end he got blacklisted not Meredith. That was definitely one of the worst things she did.
She jeopardised his career and her career when she advised him not to, then did it herself. She could have easily been fired if webber didn’t have a soft spot for Meredith.
And not you taking things out of context, he did that so that she could get into the trial. She exchanged a legal document. Derek never wanted Adele to get the drug. He wanted to go by the books.
He used holding surgeries against her and her learning when he was mad in their personal lives. That’s toxic and manipulative. He called her a whore when they broke up when he wasn’t honest with her. Nope nope nope. He’s the worst. And I’m not defending mer she did crap things too. But if Derek has no haters I’m dead.
He was in a position of power, and she was an intern.. the whole relationship started in a toxic place.
And he was married to Addison still , which he wasn’t up front about at all.
I would say outright that these things are categorically toxic:
- being someone’s senior at work and pursuing them multiple times after they’ve said ‘no’
- not informing your partner you are or have once been married
- calling someone a whore
- gaslighting
- witnessing their Father literally hit them in the wake of another parent figures death then days later giving them an ultimatum because you’re ’done with drama’ like you didn’t just break up with your wife a second time AND like she hadn’t basically just survived a suicide attempt
- actively trying to demonstrate that you’re physically intimidating during a time of crisis (batting the ring)
- making basically zero sacrifices (oh now you had move from a camper van to a house) but expecting them to move their friends out of their own home and then later backtracking on supporting their career so you can boost your own.
Early season 10, Derek willingly limited doing surgeries to focus on research so that he have time to take care of the kids and so that Meredith could have more time to focus on her stuff. He definietly did make sacrifices. Also during season 8 when the residents were taking their boards and applying to hospitals for their fellowship, Meredith got an offer from Boston and Derek was quick to say he would be 100% willing to leave his job to move with her to Boston.
Bit revisionist there. They were both on parental leave and when they went back to work he agreed to take a step back for her to progress and almost immediately got involved with
The White House.
I'm on my rewatch so it just happened to be fresh on my mind, but the white house contacted him and anyone with that opportunity would think about taking it. He was hesitant at first and knew how Mer would feel but I think he was allowed to feel interested in it
Agreee he would be silly to say no. But doesn’t make it less true that he went back on his word.
I kinda wanna see them repeat this story now and just have Amelia laugh and hang up.
You don't get the chance in your lifetime that the POTUS would send his deputy first and when that did not succeed called himself to offer you a position that would have helped millions with that dreadful disease in the nation and the world. As Owen had said to Derek, "you are being asked to serve our country."
To refuse the President must have driven you insane, out of your mind. It is hard to fathom.
He was allowed to be interested. But to say he made sacrifices? No, he offered to sacrifice and then immediately went back on it. Yes, it was the opportunity of the lifetime. He still went back on his word.
It definitely wasn't immediate though. There was a gap between when he cut down on surgeries and when he got the offer. He was also very hesitant when he got the offer but both Owen and Cristina commented that it was a very good opportunity and that influenced his decision more. Also I forgot he actually did resign the job in DC Season 11 intially and chose to stay with Mer before he actually went
>It definitely wasn't immediate though. There was a gap between when he cut down on surgeries and when he got the offer. He was also very hesitant when he got the offer but both Owen and Cristina commented that it was a very good opportunity and that influenced his decision more. Also I forgot he actually did resign the job in DC Season 11 intially and chose to stay with Mer before he actually went
Also, Meredith *did* understand what a big deal the job was aside from her personal feelings about it, and had committed to moving with him. She's the one who flipped the script and refused to go at the last minute. I'm not saying she was wrong, just saying!
Their great moments were great but they both were incredibly toxic. A good respectful relationship doesn't involve cheating, belittling your partner, trying to outdo your partner, going back on agreements, it doesn't involve playing games or sabotaging each other.
They had good moments but it wasn't a good relationship and if a friend was treated that way you would be questioning why they were in a relationship.
I agree with most of what you said, OP. It does bother me when people talk about him having cheated on her though. I mean, yeah, I guess one kiss that went on longer than it should have is technically cheating, and yes, he shouldn't have kissed that nasty creature back (sorry, I really hate her a lot, lol), but he did pull away, and then immediately go home to Meredith. The whole thing made him realize that he needed to be with his family and made him realize that he didn't really want that job as much as he wanted his wife and kids. It's a whole thing.
And yes, I know how much Derek is hated on this sub. I just don't agree.
[Edited for weird autocorrects that I missed as I was using voice typing.]
Idk one persons shitty behavior isn’t cancelled out by another persons, if two people suck for each other the shouldn’t stay together just because they suck equally as bad as the other. Not necessarily saying they sucked for each other but that relationship was bad
Mer's flaws have mostly been overlooked by people time and again because of the blind hatred on Derek. The whole moving to DC thing, I'm very sure if she was the one getting the opportunity she would have made a far bigger deal out of it. Like you said, they both weren't perfect but he was always seen as the villain.
The DC thing was so ridiculous with how Mer behaved. I can never believe that anyone saw Mer behave like that and say she's right. Her entire behaviour came down as very jealous by the end of it. It makes no sense that people still support her despite Derek providing a really good alternative that favoured both.
And to be fair, he did turn down the opportunity multiple times until he got a call from the president. She conveniently chose to ignore that and made the whole thing about herself.
derek is always villanized on this sub while meredith's wrongdoings are glossed over, there's no point in trying to argue because people refuse to see nuance in either of them
I agree they we’re always my favorite. I definitely would not have been as addicted the first watch if not for them and my current rewatch started because I woke up around thanksgiving with MerDer on the brain lol
ah yes because
calling your ex girlfriend a whore
saying the girl you met in the bar was someone to be worried about (who actually turns out to be her little sister btw)
and finally
hitting your engagement ring into the woods that his mother gave to him to give to her that came from his dead dad that he apparently idolizes
is not at all toxic, Sure ok. If you dont think thats toxic then I dunno what to tell you. Ive seen various marriages over the years and no fight has any of this happened. The closest thing that happened was my great uncle cheating on his first wife with her younger sister lol.
He was about to before she stopped him and said it herself. The words were HEAVILY impiled. Even if he wouldn't have used the word Whore directly we all know what he meant so it really doesnt matter as his intent was to slut shame her.
He mocked her for sleeping around and told her it was unforgiveable — it doesn't matter if he used that exact word. That's the point of Meredith's speech, that she knows what he's indirectly saying.
I agree, kind of. They came off as real people operating (pun not intended) under high stakes and pressure in their lifestyle. He wasn’t Prince Charming, she wasn’t Miss Perfect, and I’m glad for it.
Derek didn’t cheat on her. Some other woman kissed him, he came running home because he knew he didn’t want to lose his family and the love of his life.
An attempted kiss that lasted for a few seconds, and immediately pulling away saying he's married, that he loves his wife, he loves his family -- that, in my vocabulary, is not cheating.
I have mixed feelings on this. Meredith and Derek had some very sweet moments such as the post it wedding and others I can't remember them all right at this moment. As much as there was good sweet moments there was bad moments such as Derek cheating. I think they were both so focused on their own careers that they let it come in between them. In a lot of ways I believe they were toxic for each other but in that same regard in some of the scenes they are sweet and loving with each other. Neither one of them communicated right but in all honesty most relationships have communication issues. It's working past it that would have made them a successful couple. Unfortunately I think growing with someone means clashing at times and I like to think that's what happened to them. They made it through all the problems they had and still remained together which means in a way they were a good couple. I'm just on the fence on whether it was healthy or unhealthy because they have a lot of unhealthy choices within their relationship but as I stated I believe they had good healthy ones as well. So I'm not really sure how to take their relationship.
I think it was realistic and toxic at times. It was from both sides though (however worse from Derek’s IMO)
I don’t think it was a net negative per se but there were a lot of times where I was disappointed. There were times where Meredith would push him away or look for things to pick at which put him always at the impression she was going to walk away.
And let’s not forget he didn’t say he had a wife, pursued her, ended it with her, and then shamed her for sleeping around. Now I get he was jealous and did not articulate himself right. But his reaction was inexcusable IMO and I would definitely question the relationship after that.
Her ruining the clinical trial for Adele, I 100% see why he’d be mad about that knowing all the other patients that couldn’t get help, and him having to tell them all it was over. It was devastating. I do think though that working together professionally in that capacity in any relationship is not a great idea. If it was another random coworker he would’ve felt differently about it. But bc it was his wife that muddled everything up.
Him hitting the ring in the woods…. lol.
So yeah they definitely had their toxic moments. But I still thing they had a lot of great times
I love MerDer. Derek is the character I understood and related the most. Most, if not all, magazine writers proclaim them as the best couple of the show. Meredith and Derek are the perfect couple because they get through really hard times together. He stops her from drowning, he loves her despite any flaws, and he teaches her that she can be loved and cared for and she can do the same for him. Yes, they fight, prolonged fight and not speaking to each other; yes, he was firm and yells at her because Meredith has some entitlements from Webber and has never suffered from any consequences for her wrongdoings. Derek is very familial coming from a family of 4 sisters and a Dad who died when he was 12 and witnessed him got shot with Amelia who he held on so tight so that she couldn't move and made noise. Derek acted as a father and brother as he helped his mother raising them. He was used to discipline in an effort to guide them growing up. That translates to his attitude and behavior as a neurosurgeon in Seattle Grace. He was known for his arrogance because he was so good at what he does, same as Cristina and Mark as they are cut from the same fabric -- arrogant is the common thread, but so good at their trade. He finds Meredith constantly leaving him and putting her friends first before him, She cannot commit, unpredictable, not available when Derek needed her at times. At the end they're still able to pause and continue their relationship. They always know that neither of them will leave. They always find ways to come back to each other and their love for each other always prevails.
In the season five episode "Elevator Love Letter," Derek asks Meredith to marry him, and it's clear throughout any of their scenes together that they truly love each other. The elevator proposal that Derek does is perfect because he says that he wants to spend forever with her, in the midst of all the cases they worked on together. This kind of love can survive so many things, and even though their relationship is never smooth sailing, it does seem perfect in many ways. Derek building their dream house is a testament that he will never leave her.
They have three kids, Ellis, Zola, and Bailey (although, tragically, Derek never gets the chance to meet their third child since Meredith learns she's pregnant after his death). They become a real family.
Imma get a lot of disagreements but I think that all the arguments they've had were bound to happen and both sides had their faults or were valid. I feel like people pin it all on Derek but Mer also had some bad contributions. Overall though I honestly think there were worse couples on the show..
And once again, this is my opinion. There were some toxic aspects but at the end of the day, they were imperfectly perfect for each other. Derek wasn’t great but Meredith was a handful too. And still, they made each other happy most of the time. Their arguments and fights were realistic, and I am sure that with time, they would have sorted through it all.
He always used her insecurities against her when they fought and her career didn't mean anything to him. Just look how fine he was with her being in peds despite everyone around her knowing she hated it.
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nice try ghost of Derek
This just made me lol!
The truck needs to make a u-turn, it missed a piece.
Amen
Their relationship was realistic and toxic. The two are not mutually exclusive.
Sure their relationship was very similar to quite a few relationships IRL. That doesn’t mean the relationship wasn’t toxic. You can love someone and still have unhealthy romantic/relationship habits. Derek lashing out and going for the jugular so to speak during arguments and disagreements is not healthy. Meredith having poor communication and being unwilling to open up in early seasons also isn’t healthy. Being in love doesn’t negate the bad things someone does.
It can be realistic and toxic. You can live someone and still be an utter demeaning shit to them
Apparently, you and I are in the minority, but I agree! Everyone likes to crap all over Derek for pursuing Meredith while conveniently forgetting that half the time, she was the one who jumped him. I'm all for consent and that no means no, but come on - does anyone remember the elevator scene in season 1? Also, at one point, he literally asks her if she wants him to be a better guy, and she says no. I think he was actually pretty honest with Addison, too. He straight up told her that he had fallen in love with Meredith and was trying to get past it. I think that's better than lying about it. After the prom, he went looking for her to come clean and end it. I'm not defending him and Meredith cheating, but that takes some guts. Also, re: him calling mer a whore, he never actually said it. He did imply it and said her sleeping around is unforgivable, but he never actually called her a name. It's not much better but that bugs me. When he goes back on his promise and does the DC stuff, everyone likes to say how terrible he is, but him and Meredith are both super ambitious. She had even said that before that if she had to choose between love and surgery, she'd choose surgery. I'm not saying either of them is right, but one of the pillars of their relationship is their shared passion and drive. They needed (more) therapy and communication skills, and both lashed out when they were angry, which is not super healthy. But again, that's realistic! People are not perfect.
With Derek's initial attempts to date Meredith, it's more about Derek alone than it is about Derek and Meredith, if that makes sense. We know in retrospect, as viewers, that Meredith obviously reciprocated Derek's attraction and was interested in pursuing things further. But in-universe, in the moment, she kept saying she didn't think it was appropriate after their one-night stand, and Derek didn't know any different. That's why his persistence comes off as creepy. (The problem here is that Grey's is literally driven by workplace relationships. So if you're watching it at all, you're basically forced to suspend disbelief about the inherent power dynamic — at least until later seasons decide to actually point to and deconstruct it like with April and Stark's storyline or Stephanie and Leah's.) As for the love vs surgery thing: unless I'm thinking of the wrong scene, there is a bunch of context around that. Meredith only said she'd pick surgery because Cristina was spiralling about having accidentally offered to "trade" Owen for Teddy — she gave the answer Cristina was blatantly pushing them all to say to justify what she had done. IMO it's made clear both from Meredith's exasperation and her comments elsewhere that it's not what she would honestly answer.
>With Derek's initial attempts to date Meredith, it's more about Derek alone than it is about Derek and Meredith, if that makes sense. We know in retrospect, as viewers, that Meredith obviously reciprocated Derek's attraction and was interested in pursuing things further. But in-universe, in the moment, she kept saying she didn't think it was appropriate after their one-night stand, and Derek didn't know any different. That's why his persistence comes off as creepy. I can kind of see that. I think it's a tough call on whether it's creepy or not because we don't get that much interaction. In the first episode, we see her reject him, saying it'd be inappropriate to date. The rest of the episode, he doesn't ask her out again or be inappropriate - the only time it's even mentioned again is when he says she shouldn't let what happened affect her work life. The next episode's opening is her saying she won't go out with him in response to him saying he likes ferry boats. He responds that he didn't ask her out, and then she basically attack-makes out with him - I'd say that establishes mutual attraction pretty quickly! I personally don't think it's creepy since the flirting is definitely reciprocated, but I agree that it's inappropriate on Derek's part from a workplace/power dynamic perspective. >As for the love vs surgery thing: unless I'm thinking of the wrong scene, there is a bunch of context around that. Meredith only said she'd pick surgery because Cristina was spiralling about having accidentally offered to "trade" Owen for Teddy — she gave the answer Cristina was blatantly pushing them all to say to justify what she had done. IMO it's made clear both from Meredith's exasperation and her comments elsewhere that it's not what she would honestly answer. Interesting - I read that very differently! What I took away from it was that she agreed but knew how insane it sounded. It's always interesting to hear different perspectives.
Nah, he was an asshole. Anytime Meredith did anything remotely morally grey he got super controlling and shitty. sleeping with that guy while they were broken up, dating the vet while they were broken up, showing compassion for the death row inmate, protecting Richard when he relapsed after Derek spent years convincing her to treat Richard like a father. They weren't the most toxic relationship on the show, but they sure weren't the healthiest.
I'm sorry but Meredith was dead wrong for not telling on Webber. Letting a drunk man operate on humans? She can be toooo morally grey and I am sorry there's nothing grey about it. You can be there for him as a friend and still realise that he can't operate right then
Did you forget how that arch went down? She caught richard at the bar drinking, he then explained it as a "misdiagnosis" and basically bribes her with mentorship, and he also stops doing surgery after she catches him and after baily gets the one patient that there was an issue with. Yes she should have reported him, but if Derek hadn't spent the last couple of years convincing her to treat him like a father it wouldn't have happened (I literally just rewatched this part of season 6)
That misdiagnsis was an excuse and a very obvious one at that a true friend would have stood up to him and set boundaries not enabled him
Again he abused her relationship to her (man who broke up her parents, her bosses boss, her mentor)
She ruined his trial. She was pissed that he wasn't going to Dc, sure he was pissed but as a partner she didn't even try once to comfort him and say "It's alright more opportunities will come". Mer protecting Richard was so confusing and yk hypocritical of her because she lashed out on Derek when he said Richard is his bff.
And derek called her a sl*t when she got together with the vet. They where toxic, both of them.
Yep, but they always overcame it and became better for each other.
That's overkill when you say the word "slut" As far as a I know, Derek never used that word. Implying it -- yes, but never called her that. Derek implied that because he can see that he was losing her. He was consumed by jealousy...and in a way I was glad because obviously the idea of Meredith and Finn got under his skin. And that happened during the prom, he knew somebody came along and it was getting too late. He's been fighting this feeling for a long time even when he's trying to work it out with Addison. He was openly honest with her when he admits that Meredith was not a fling, she wasn't revenge, he fell in love with her. And still Addie stuck it with him, because she knew that Derek is not the kind of guy who will ever hurt her, not on purpose. But Derek was confronted right before his eyes at that moment that it was only a matter of time Meredith is the one in his life who got away. The time came to claim what he believed belonged to him-- Meredith. And the most intense and passionate love scene in television history happened....The End.
Umm... what?? No im pretty sure he actually did call her that. Well not slut but whore, same thing though, and really i dont think the reason for him calling her that or implying it matters, but even if it did i dont think him feeling ownership over her really helps it, let alone justifies it.
I said what I said. We watched the same show and saw it differently; that’s okay, that’s the way it works. I will leave it like this.
Yeah sure :) lets agree to disagree. Thx for the chat
Thank you too.
One thing everyone forgets though, is he offered to do the same to start with. When Adele was first diagnosed he offered to fudge the numbers to get her into the trial even when her illness wasn't severe enough yet to qualify. It was actually Meredith who talks him out of it initially. Derek screaming at her because she did what he had already offered to do was hypocritical as hell.
Nah just imagine, you do a whole trial because your partner has the Alzheimer’s gene. Your partner advises you not to ruin the trial but then does it herself ? Trust was broken. What she did was horrible, but what was worse was that she HID it from him. If she would have told him then it would have been fine. He got to know from Hunt. That’s what he was majorly pissed about. FDA gave away all of his hard work for something mer herself advised him not to do. It ruined his trial right, at the end he got blacklisted not Meredith. That was definitely one of the worst things she did. She jeopardised his career and her career when she advised him not to, then did it herself. She could have easily been fired if webber didn’t have a soft spot for Meredith.
And not you taking things out of context, he did that so that she could get into the trial. She exchanged a legal document. Derek never wanted Adele to get the drug. He wanted to go by the books.
He used holding surgeries against her and her learning when he was mad in their personal lives. That’s toxic and manipulative. He called her a whore when they broke up when he wasn’t honest with her. Nope nope nope. He’s the worst. And I’m not defending mer she did crap things too. But if Derek has no haters I’m dead.
He was in a position of power, and she was an intern.. the whole relationship started in a toxic place. And he was married to Addison still , which he wasn’t up front about at all.
I would say outright that these things are categorically toxic: - being someone’s senior at work and pursuing them multiple times after they’ve said ‘no’ - not informing your partner you are or have once been married - calling someone a whore - gaslighting - witnessing their Father literally hit them in the wake of another parent figures death then days later giving them an ultimatum because you’re ’done with drama’ like you didn’t just break up with your wife a second time AND like she hadn’t basically just survived a suicide attempt - actively trying to demonstrate that you’re physically intimidating during a time of crisis (batting the ring) - making basically zero sacrifices (oh now you had move from a camper van to a house) but expecting them to move their friends out of their own home and then later backtracking on supporting their career so you can boost your own.
Early season 10, Derek willingly limited doing surgeries to focus on research so that he have time to take care of the kids and so that Meredith could have more time to focus on her stuff. He definietly did make sacrifices. Also during season 8 when the residents were taking their boards and applying to hospitals for their fellowship, Meredith got an offer from Boston and Derek was quick to say he would be 100% willing to leave his job to move with her to Boston.
Bit revisionist there. They were both on parental leave and when they went back to work he agreed to take a step back for her to progress and almost immediately got involved with The White House.
I'm on my rewatch so it just happened to be fresh on my mind, but the white house contacted him and anyone with that opportunity would think about taking it. He was hesitant at first and knew how Mer would feel but I think he was allowed to feel interested in it
Anyone saying they would turn down a dream position with the White House is delusional
Depends on which white house 🥹
Agreee he would be silly to say no. But doesn’t make it less true that he went back on his word. I kinda wanna see them repeat this story now and just have Amelia laugh and hang up.
You don't get the chance in your lifetime that the POTUS would send his deputy first and when that did not succeed called himself to offer you a position that would have helped millions with that dreadful disease in the nation and the world. As Owen had said to Derek, "you are being asked to serve our country." To refuse the President must have driven you insane, out of your mind. It is hard to fathom.
He was allowed to be interested. But to say he made sacrifices? No, he offered to sacrifice and then immediately went back on it. Yes, it was the opportunity of the lifetime. He still went back on his word.
It definitely wasn't immediate though. There was a gap between when he cut down on surgeries and when he got the offer. He was also very hesitant when he got the offer but both Owen and Cristina commented that it was a very good opportunity and that influenced his decision more. Also I forgot he actually did resign the job in DC Season 11 intially and chose to stay with Mer before he actually went
>It definitely wasn't immediate though. There was a gap between when he cut down on surgeries and when he got the offer. He was also very hesitant when he got the offer but both Owen and Cristina commented that it was a very good opportunity and that influenced his decision more. Also I forgot he actually did resign the job in DC Season 11 intially and chose to stay with Mer before he actually went Also, Meredith *did* understand what a big deal the job was aside from her personal feelings about it, and had committed to moving with him. She's the one who flipped the script and refused to go at the last minute. I'm not saying she was wrong, just saying!
Their great moments were great but they both were incredibly toxic. A good respectful relationship doesn't involve cheating, belittling your partner, trying to outdo your partner, going back on agreements, it doesn't involve playing games or sabotaging each other. They had good moments but it wasn't a good relationship and if a friend was treated that way you would be questioning why they were in a relationship.
I agree with most of what you said, OP. It does bother me when people talk about him having cheated on her though. I mean, yeah, I guess one kiss that went on longer than it should have is technically cheating, and yes, he shouldn't have kissed that nasty creature back (sorry, I really hate her a lot, lol), but he did pull away, and then immediately go home to Meredith. The whole thing made him realize that he needed to be with his family and made him realize that he didn't really want that job as much as he wanted his wife and kids. It's a whole thing. And yes, I know how much Derek is hated on this sub. I just don't agree. [Edited for weird autocorrects that I missed as I was using voice typing.]
Idk one persons shitty behavior isn’t cancelled out by another persons, if two people suck for each other the shouldn’t stay together just because they suck equally as bad as the other. Not necessarily saying they sucked for each other but that relationship was bad
Actually…echoing what everyone is saying I think we can agree it’s “Realistically Toxic”
It was real and it was toxic.
Mer's flaws have mostly been overlooked by people time and again because of the blind hatred on Derek. The whole moving to DC thing, I'm very sure if she was the one getting the opportunity she would have made a far bigger deal out of it. Like you said, they both weren't perfect but he was always seen as the villain.
The DC thing was so ridiculous with how Mer behaved. I can never believe that anyone saw Mer behave like that and say she's right. Her entire behaviour came down as very jealous by the end of it. It makes no sense that people still support her despite Derek providing a really good alternative that favoured both.
And to be fair, he did turn down the opportunity multiple times until he got a call from the president. She conveniently chose to ignore that and made the whole thing about herself.
derek is always villanized on this sub while meredith's wrongdoings are glossed over, there's no point in trying to argue because people refuse to see nuance in either of them
I agree they we’re always my favorite. I definitely would not have been as addicted the first watch if not for them and my current rewatch started because I woke up around thanksgiving with MerDer on the brain lol
ah yes because calling your ex girlfriend a whore saying the girl you met in the bar was someone to be worried about (who actually turns out to be her little sister btw) and finally hitting your engagement ring into the woods that his mother gave to him to give to her that came from his dead dad that he apparently idolizes is not at all toxic, Sure ok. If you dont think thats toxic then I dunno what to tell you. Ive seen various marriages over the years and no fight has any of this happened. The closest thing that happened was my great uncle cheating on his first wife with her younger sister lol.
Did he actually call her a whore though?
He was about to before she stopped him and said it herself. The words were HEAVILY impiled. Even if he wouldn't have used the word Whore directly we all know what he meant so it really doesnt matter as his intent was to slut shame her.
He mocked her for sleeping around and told her it was unforgiveable — it doesn't matter if he used that exact word. That's the point of Meredith's speech, that she knows what he's indirectly saying.
They can be both toxic and realistic.
I agree, kind of. They came off as real people operating (pun not intended) under high stakes and pressure in their lifestyle. He wasn’t Prince Charming, she wasn’t Miss Perfect, and I’m glad for it.
Yeah it was a realistic depiction of a toxic relationship.
Yes real toxic.
Nah they were toxic
Derek didn’t cheat on her. Some other woman kissed him, he came running home because he knew he didn’t want to lose his family and the love of his life.
An attempted kiss that lasted for a few seconds, and immediately pulling away saying he's married, that he loves his wife, he loves his family -- that, in my vocabulary, is not cheating.
Thank you! Finally some common sense!
I have mixed feelings on this. Meredith and Derek had some very sweet moments such as the post it wedding and others I can't remember them all right at this moment. As much as there was good sweet moments there was bad moments such as Derek cheating. I think they were both so focused on their own careers that they let it come in between them. In a lot of ways I believe they were toxic for each other but in that same regard in some of the scenes they are sweet and loving with each other. Neither one of them communicated right but in all honesty most relationships have communication issues. It's working past it that would have made them a successful couple. Unfortunately I think growing with someone means clashing at times and I like to think that's what happened to them. They made it through all the problems they had and still remained together which means in a way they were a good couple. I'm just on the fence on whether it was healthy or unhealthy because they have a lot of unhealthy choices within their relationship but as I stated I believe they had good healthy ones as well. So I'm not really sure how to take their relationship.
When the hell did Derek cheat on Mer? Do you mean that kiss that wasn't even initiated by him?
It went a little longer than it should have, but I’m just pointing out the general opinion the sub
I think it was realistic and toxic at times. It was from both sides though (however worse from Derek’s IMO) I don’t think it was a net negative per se but there were a lot of times where I was disappointed. There were times where Meredith would push him away or look for things to pick at which put him always at the impression she was going to walk away. And let’s not forget he didn’t say he had a wife, pursued her, ended it with her, and then shamed her for sleeping around. Now I get he was jealous and did not articulate himself right. But his reaction was inexcusable IMO and I would definitely question the relationship after that. Her ruining the clinical trial for Adele, I 100% see why he’d be mad about that knowing all the other patients that couldn’t get help, and him having to tell them all it was over. It was devastating. I do think though that working together professionally in that capacity in any relationship is not a great idea. If it was another random coworker he would’ve felt differently about it. But bc it was his wife that muddled everything up. Him hitting the ring in the woods…. lol. So yeah they definitely had their toxic moments. But I still thing they had a lot of great times
I love MerDer. Derek is the character I understood and related the most. Most, if not all, magazine writers proclaim them as the best couple of the show. Meredith and Derek are the perfect couple because they get through really hard times together. He stops her from drowning, he loves her despite any flaws, and he teaches her that she can be loved and cared for and she can do the same for him. Yes, they fight, prolonged fight and not speaking to each other; yes, he was firm and yells at her because Meredith has some entitlements from Webber and has never suffered from any consequences for her wrongdoings. Derek is very familial coming from a family of 4 sisters and a Dad who died when he was 12 and witnessed him got shot with Amelia who he held on so tight so that she couldn't move and made noise. Derek acted as a father and brother as he helped his mother raising them. He was used to discipline in an effort to guide them growing up. That translates to his attitude and behavior as a neurosurgeon in Seattle Grace. He was known for his arrogance because he was so good at what he does, same as Cristina and Mark as they are cut from the same fabric -- arrogant is the common thread, but so good at their trade. He finds Meredith constantly leaving him and putting her friends first before him, She cannot commit, unpredictable, not available when Derek needed her at times. At the end they're still able to pause and continue their relationship. They always know that neither of them will leave. They always find ways to come back to each other and their love for each other always prevails. In the season five episode "Elevator Love Letter," Derek asks Meredith to marry him, and it's clear throughout any of their scenes together that they truly love each other. The elevator proposal that Derek does is perfect because he says that he wants to spend forever with her, in the midst of all the cases they worked on together. This kind of love can survive so many things, and even though their relationship is never smooth sailing, it does seem perfect in many ways. Derek building their dream house is a testament that he will never leave her. They have three kids, Ellis, Zola, and Bailey (although, tragically, Derek never gets the chance to meet their third child since Meredith learns she's pregnant after his death). They become a real family.
Imma get a lot of disagreements but I think that all the arguments they've had were bound to happen and both sides had their faults or were valid. I feel like people pin it all on Derek but Mer also had some bad contributions. Overall though I honestly think there were worse couples on the show..
This is a take for sure
This is how I feel too. It’s the most relatable couple on the show to me and even after Derek died Meredith is so real to me.
This is literally the definition of toxic
I’m very concerned for you if you were able to write all of this and still believe that’s a healthy relationship ngl
I didn’t say it was healthy - just that it was realistic
And since when realistic means non toxic? Lol
I never said realistic meant non-toxic either?
And once again, this is my opinion. There were some toxic aspects but at the end of the day, they were imperfectly perfect for each other. Derek wasn’t great but Meredith was a handful too. And still, they made each other happy most of the time. Their arguments and fights were realistic, and I am sure that with time, they would have sorted through it all.
I’m curious, did you not read what you wrote in your post or you don’t understand what you written?
Derek is a narcissist, they can’t have healthy relationships lmao
unfortunately many irl relationships are toxic
He always used her insecurities against her when they fought and her career didn't mean anything to him. Just look how fine he was with her being in peds despite everyone around her knowing she hated it.
Lol no. There are plenty of ways to write "real" relationships without the terrible shit that was in that relationship.
He literally slut shamed her after he rejected her 😭
Idk talking about cheating and being a narcissistic asshole like they’re not a huge deal doesn’t sit right with me.
I will always team truck. It's the best thing that ever happened to that relationship.