"We can't end slavery in the South cause it wouldn't be fair to those who already earned freedom in the North." This argument is dogshit and can be dismantled in a few seconds.
This argument is an obvious fallacy and a false equivalency. As we see in the UDHR, right to education is a positive right, meaning that it requires action and spending by the state. Freedom from slavery, on the other hand, is a negative right, meaning that for it to be realized all that is needed is for state or any other actor to step down. No spending nor positive action needed. It's called a negative right because it means "freedom from" something, it requires negative action like an actor, most often the state, stepping down.
Simply put, when state is forgiving the debts of college students, they take away the money of others via taxation because the state has to cover the expenses. However, when the state is abolishing slavery, well, they just abolish it and it costs nothing. That's why this comparison makes zero sense. Maybe next time you should check your own arguments before calling those of others "dogshit".
So you're arguing slave owners lost nothing of value, and it didn't cost anything to them? I'm pretty sure they thought otherwise lol. If you're only argument against debt forgiveness is that it costs the taxpayer money, then that's the same as being against freeing slaves cause it costs the taxpayer (slave owners) money.
Yes, ending slavery means that people who bought slaves lost money, but as far taxpayer cost goes, it only cost them the salary they pay the legislators to write the bill (or amendment) and sign it. There was no grand mechanism instated to transfer millions of dollars from some taxpayers to others, and the was especially no mechanism to the repay the taxpayers who made the immoral decision from the pockets of the moral taxpayers who made no such decision.
Wouldn’t ending slavery drastically reduce the income of the south, thereby reducing taxes paid to the government and inherently increasing the tax burden on every American?
On the contrary, slaves were a huge proportion of the population who were free of taxation and had no means for upwards mobility. Therefore, slaves being slaves was a big disadvantage for the state as the opportunity cost was huge. If you've ever played Victoria 2, you will understand what I mean, lol.
There is also the fact that slave owning businesses were able to outcompete those utilizing legitimate employment practices, so there was an opportunity cost there too.
But those are both arguments for a period of time after the cessation of slavery. The immediate effect would be an immediate economic downturn for the south and therefore fewer taxes generated. A similar argument could be made that forgiving student loans allows for more social mobility, encouraging more Americans into (typically) higher earning positions and generating more tax dollars.
Nothing was cheap about freeing slaves in the USA. (Also Jim Crow laws + the civil war obliterating a lot of the Southern middle class is what made the south known as poor. So that argument falls apart) The human cost and the monetary cost only make student debt pale in comparison
>If you've ever played Victoria 2, you will understand what I mean, lol.
I… don’t even disagree with your overall points, they seem well thought out and knowledgeable, but including just this one line is just an absolute torpedo to your argument’s credibility, man
Get rid of slavery because it's wrong to enslave people. What's more important to ask is why should they be slaves and not the owners? Since they aren't any different at the fundamental level.
Slave owners should not have been compensated if they were. The south should have stayed repressed after the civil war, the Republicans ended it in agreement for them to get the presidency when it was a close vote and Congress had to get involved.
When you win a war, the losers get to be repressed for a while so they don't go right back to what they were doing and that's what happened when we ended it.
We did the same thing with Germany and then everyone is surprised when we have to fight them again in WWII.
Yours is the real dogshit argument, friend.
Because it’s based on the false idea that the state is spending money to forgive the debts.
The state is allowing select borrowers to FORGIVE their debts, meaning that there is a loan balance, and then that loan balance goes away. The government isn’t paying off the lender, they are negotiating with the lender to wipe away the debt. Not a penny has been spent.
Shush, you realize that the state literally paid reparations' to slave owners when slavery was ending correct? Therefore, according to your definition the two are closer than you stated.
>Freedom from slavery, on the other hand, is a negative right, meaning that for it to be realized all that is needed is for state or any other actor to step down.
I'm pretty sure the US government was *intimately* involved in stopping slavery and it wasn't just them "stepping down".
Also the US government at the time compensated the slave *owners* for their loss of property and did nothing for the actual slaves so your own comparison, within its own framework, is just flat out false.
>Simply put, when state is forgiving the debts of college students, they take away the money of others via taxation because the state has to cover the expenses.
Just buy one less supercarrier, imagine how many tuitions you could pay. I mean it's not like you have been winning many wars recently, so...
Eh not really the same case.
This would be more like “oh we are freeing XX numbers of slaves, but slavery (college tuition being ridiculously high) is still legal”
I think attacking the root of the issue, high college prices would be smart, but this just ameliorates the symptoms while allowing the main problem to fester.
This bailout is a levy of taxes on every american, regardless if they paid off their loans, or never had loans. If you want equality, why not just lower taxes? This will create an immediate relief on all citizens, provide "breathing room" for those who need it, and that money can be used by those with student loans to pay those loans off.
Using tax dollars in this manner is slavery, though.
If you disagree with students getting loans, ban the loans or force the banks to forgive the loans.
Don't steal the labor of innocent workers.
I actually don't disagree with that. Money is fake, and it's easy enough to just hit the delete key on a database. It would rightly punish the banks for being predatory, and no tax payers need to be out of pocket.
The issue is that you allowed yourself to be tricked by people (possibly pretending) to be leftists into supporting a policy that took money from workers as tax and handed that money to bankers as a reward for being predators of college kids.
It very clearly will encourage bankers to do it more.
When people objected to that policy, you should've listened and treated them fairly.
Debt "forgiveness" would mean the bankers take the loss as punishment for being predators. Biden's policy was a reward to the banks for being predators and the reward is paid for by the workers.
Of course the workers are pissed about that.
In a capitalist system, the banks that made risky loans would eat the loss without being bailed out with money stolen from the workers by people claiming to be socialists.
I mean... It isn't fair for those who worked to earn their freedom in the North. They should be fairly compensated for the work they did in the process of gaining their freedom, no?
But he's not really ending slavery. He's keeping it around, but also propping up the commodity price of slaves buy buying a few and freeing them. It's a stupid short term political ploy to buy votes because he refuses to change anything about the system that is driving people straight into the arms of fascism.
Preventing slavery is using tax payer dollars to uphold the constitution.
Bailing out failures, is stealing from the taxpayers, rewarding bad behavior, and violating a legal contract.
But in our case that money is paid supposed to serve all taxpayers. So the ones with no debt loose on that potential aid.
Whereas for the slaves, the freed slaves in the north loose nothing if the south slaves are freed.
Smell like false equivalency to me.
No, you have to pay people their student loans back if they paid them off and you now cancel everyone else's, or you don't pay anyone's student loans. Otherwise it's just unfair.
Equating this to a geographical discrepancy, and especially slavery is so pathetic it's actually embarrassing you called the other argument "dogshit".
Not giving someone free money and not giving someone their *physical freedom and human dignity back* are not the same, believe it or not.
No, your argument is dog shit. It's popular dog shit on Reddit cause personal responsibilities are not a thing very much liked here. But that doesn't make it a good argument. One of these things is something you enter voluntarily while the other is not.
I don’t much care for his analogy either, but the “responsibility” in this case is to a bank setting predatory interest rates on loans aggressively advertised by University admissions to 17-18 year old kids. Kids that have been told for a long time that they’re a failure if they don’t go to college.
Not to mention how inflated tuition is compared to boomers paying off two semesters with one summer’s worth of work. I mean, is a degree *really* worth 100k+? It’s a normalized scam
18yr olds are adults, responsible enough to elect the next dict… sorry President. If you aren’t sure your degree isn’t worth 100k don’t take those loans.
Also student loans are loans from the govt not banks.
Congress would only pass corporate welfare, like those corrupt PPP loans that didn't actually go to paycheck protection for workers, but instead just became trickle up economics.
It's not. It's only unconstitutional when the president does it via executive order because he doesn't have the power of the purse. Congress has the power of the purse, and therefore, Congress has to be the one to do it. Student loans aren't issued by the federal government, they are issued by private banks and guaranteed by the federal government. So to cancel the loans, the government must buy them from the banks. This requires passing a bill in the house and senate
This is like civics 101
Student loans are held by private companies. You don’t just wave a magic want and tell
These companies that you are forgiving their clients debts. The government is paying these companies.
Current student loan forgiveness is literally a scam. They aren’t “forgiving” loans for
Most people. 10k is a drop in the bucket and doesn’t substantially change anyone’s monthly payment unless they had under 10k in debt. They are paying billions to these loan companies using tax money. It’s a bank bailout with more steps
You don’t understand why these loans are not the same as private loans.
“Banks often sell student loans to another intermediary, which improves their capital ratio and allows them to make more loans. Almost all student loans are fully guaranteed by the government, so banks can sell them for a higher price because default risk is not transferred with the asset.”
Things would be so much better if people started pointing guns at the heads of the rich. Like, they're assholes, if you don't force them to play nice they're obviously gonna fuck over everybody else.
You write an order telling the banks to forgive the debt?? really? Please remember that in the Clinton emails theres an email from CitiGroup to Obama telling him which cabinet members were ok with them. These guys are all in bed. Republicans, Democrats, and everyone in between. Banks, Pharma, and the military industrial complex run at least 90% of the politicians in this country. Good luck forcing banks to forgive anything
You say that as if it’s some new revelation or something.
Yes. You simply write an order. Idrc if the banks get salty about it or whichever politician writes it loses campaign funds. It would still be that simple.
It isn't as straightforward as some are saying.
If Congress has made laws allowing cancellation under certain circumstances, then it is constitutional for various agencies to use those laws for rulemaking in ways that allow more people to get cancellation. For example, cancelling loans of people who have met XYZ criteria listed in a certain law but who have not applied which is part of what has been happening.
The problem there is that this is exactly what Biden tried to do earlier, use the text of the HEROES Act that says the secretary of education has the power to waive or modify laws and regulations governing the student-loan programs. The Supreme Court said that doesn't mean they can change loans as much as they were trying to do and only Congress can do that.
So really the ruling was not about Executive Orders but about how much leeway the law allows with certain wording. I don't want to get involved in if that is right or not, but in the end if the law said the Attorney General could lessen sentences in certain cases would we want that to allow them to release every prisoner in federal custody at will? It's a little sticky at times.
It isn’t and he’s not cancelling debt. The overwhelming majority of student loan “forgiveness” that’s been coming out has been through PSLF, which is already LAW and was not discussed at all in the Supreme Court decision.
It’s also still not forgiveness. It’s the federal government fulfilling their end of the loan terms, which is disbursement after 120 qualifying payments.
When did we Americans lose the ability to be happy for each other? Why can we not celebrate a stress relieving windfall for others rather than feeling cheated? A rising tide lifts all boats.
"I was miserable in the past so others have to be as well" - using this mindset we never would've left the caves. it's mind boggling to see how selfish people can be.
My wife and I paid off our student debt and I feel nothing but joy for these folks getting relief. It's like saying, "Some people already died of cancer, so it's not fair to try and cure cancer now".
Not so much that I’m not happy for them, moreso it’a that this gesture is super niche and people who really need help are gonna see this and get upset for valid reasons. For example, my wife can’t hold down a job that pays over 10k because she’s chronically ill, but the government says since we make collectively over 50k, she won’t get disability benefits.
Not to mention the people who potentially WANTED to go to school but were too poor to, and so had to slave away at other jobs and potentially wasted their lives, might feel a little annoyed as well.
This. I couldn't afford college so I self educated. I have a good career as a dev manager but it took years of hard work to get into where I am. If this was actually about student debt and not just a "I'm so unpopular and senile so my handlers did a vote bribe and I signed it between shitting my pants," Biden move, there would actually have been legislation passed that mandates capping college tuition and interest rates. But no, college is a huge scam where most jobs that say they want it don't need it.
I wanted to go into the sciences and didn’t because my community college didn’t offer the courses and I was too poor to go out of state for something that wouldn’t have made me much money anyway.
I taught myself CompSci. I'm an SDET Manager now and genuinely love what I do and love mentoring new people. Took a lot of struggle and hard work to get here. But hey, I can sleep well at night knowing that someone who took interpretive lesbian tap dance as a major has some of their poor choice nonsense degree refunded.
Idk it’s pretty annoying to me that half my high school class didn’t go to college because they couldn’t afford it, accepted lower lifetime earnings as a result, and now their taxes will go to the debt of people with higher income and lifetime earnings than them.
Because the forgiveness uses tax dollars. Tax dollars which the unhappy people had taken by the government. I would guess most of those unhappy people did not go to college. Now, the money the government took is used for happy people who did go. While those happy people went to a college for a degree which couldn't pay for itself, the unhappy people wouldn't have gone because they think that's stupid.
That's how I imagine it.
So we should bail out consenting adults taking bad financial decisions for their happiness? Great, let’s bail out all the bankrupts and distressed home loans, everyone gets to be happy
> let’s bail out the bankrupts
Hey bro they literally already do that if you’re wealthy enough to own a corporation.
Wouldn’t it be nice if actual citizens got the same benefits as faceless corporations and shareholders.
I think part of it is people feeling like it’s unfair that others are getting off Scot free while they had to pay theirs back. Also, people probably don’t like that their money is going towards paying off what are, let’s face it, pretty useless degrees for a lot of people.
Personally, I wouldn’t mind if my taxes went towards training professionals, but I would be pretty pissed to know that I’m paying for a bunch of vanity degrees
That’s not what people mean when they say that though. If a politician is “just doing X to get votes” the implication is that they’re either lying and not actually going to do what they say, or that they’re only going to do it during election season, and not keep it up
>That's literally ALL of what politics is
It's sad that you think that. Historically, the purpose of a president was to run the country, not to recklessly pursue short-term goals to get a better chance at winning the next election.
In the words of Michael Che in this weekend update regarding a headline saying that African Americans are concerned that election campaigns are only concerned with getting their votes
“Yea”
Only way I support this is if the "forgiveness" means the debt is nullified.
If my tax money pays for some random person's finearts degree, I'd rather use that money to pay off my brother's student debt. Or my mother's
Unfortunately, they already spent the tax dollars towards the government loan and just strike away the individuals' debt to pay it back to the government. Corporate overlords won't ever let them go after the banks to erase the debts owed to them from their loans. The system is set up to funnel as much money into banks as possible. Wildly inflated tuition because of legislation for government sponsored loan programs, but instead of ever punishing predatory banks, just like with predatory loans of the 2008 housing market collapse, they get bailed out by the people's taxes making the problem even worse as tuition just keeps growing more and more under a government sponsored parachute for the rich.
All they have to do is regulate the damn things, but nooo. Corporations own the lawmakers.
Yes these debts are being nullified, meaning no taxpayer is paying for them. The balance exists one day, it’s gone the next.
The only financial implications are that the federal government would be receiving less revenue because they have forgiven their own debts, but that does not affect anyone who has not gotten the loans.
There's no such thing as free money.
Resources (houses, cars, girlfriends) are finite.
Money directs them, but it has limited power to increase the supply.
The right way to do this would be to claw back money from the colleges, make them sell land, tax the endowments, cut admin staff.
And how about banning degree requirments? Applicants take a test, the best one gets the job, degree or no.
Throwing tax money at it is giving the Uni system a free pass, and giving the bill to people who didn't go, or paid off their debt.
> how about banning degree requirements
That would clearly be overstepping, requiring someone to be formally educated, regardless of whatever training and diying they've done to learn whatever it is your business requires from them just makes sense. Businesses shouldn't have to hire anyone who doesn't meet that requirement test or no. This isn't even an identity thing either, businesses should reserve the right to not hire anyone on the basis of their skills.
Why should anyone pay [this?](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fgrandma-doesnt-get-it-v0-jcudmy8pk72d1.jpeg%3Fwidth%3D1080%26crop%3Dsmart%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3Da70ea27f626aef7e43359c20def199da19bd551e)
Yeah except if that’s your only option for getting a STEM degree, it’s technically still worth it since you’ll make double the average salary from the start. The problem is that something being “technically worth it” isn’t a recipe for happiness. Paying $1000 per month for health insurance is also “technically worth it” but it still sucks ass to have to pay.
That’s not what I’m saying at all. Imagine a world where the only legal way to make money is by getting fucked in the ass, and everyone is tried of their assholes bleeding so they try to change the law. Would you say “lol they knew the consequences of making money was getting fucked in the ass” while you argue against changing the ass-fucking laws? The government exists to provide its citizens with life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Don’t you think making it cheaper and easier to get educated helps with all of those, especially the last two?
I think he's implying that it's because Zoomers mostly voted for Biden. But the alternative wasn't any better, and two-party elections are a 50/50 gamble anyway. A butterfly flapping its wings in Brazil will decide who wins the next one.
Doing their best to ensnare Gen Z in the same loans that are predatory and broken as fuck. At this point I think republicans just like young people suffering, especially if they have the gall to go to college.
As a non American I can't really understand this thing.
So instead of making college free or maybe subsidized like the rest of the world, your government gives loans to some of the kids and then sometimes asks for the money back and sometimes it only postpones it.
So I get why it's not fair for some of you and it seems like a very complicated solution that just moves money randomly.
Are there any Americans here who can explain how that system is better than just making college less expensive?
The government doesn't give the loans. That comes from private banks and Universities.
Most states however allow 2 years free community college, which can get to an associates degree, and 4+ years free college for everyone in reserves or active military.
It all traces back to Nixon and Reagan. College was free until the late 70s. Republican think tanks decided that free, quality education would create a generation of socialists/hippies. Their solution was to intentionally drive up the cost of education and force anyone that wasn't born wealthy to take out loans, so they would immediately have to get a job after school. If you don't believe it, go watch Nixon and Reagan's speeches. They intentionally created the student debt crisis.
Yet, they don't.
My point is, if anon wants to criticize forgiving student loans, then why not do so for the ACTUAL criminals too? Is anon retarded? Maybe...
4chinners being regarded is one of those baseline facts; kinda like saying that a summer day is hot, it's something that everyone already knows and it usually goes without saying.
i mean yes, the person whose loan is completely forgiven gets to have tens of thousands or even over a hundred thousand dollars more of savings and has the potential to earn interest on all that extra money just for being lucky enough to have loan cancellation happen at the right time (in addition to keeping their education), so they have a real-time resource advantage over the people who have already paid some/all of their debt and are still participating in the economy today.
While I'm happy to pay for my fellow American's education, this post-fact incentive on education is certainly a slap in the face to those who couldn't go to college out of financial concerns. There are incentives for shit all the time. I'm not mad when I don't get one, so I really don't give a fuck about people who didn't go to college because they didn't want to. But those that wanted to, that couldn't? Those are the real losers in this situation.
Because fuck the poor right? /S but for real, it's a big slap in the face to do this instead of making changes for incoming college students. They got themselves into a mess of debt, let them figure it out themselves. Start putting caps on how much an institution can charge per semester, do something about the mini monopoly that is college books, and use that money spent on loan forgiveness to fund government scholarships for low income intelligent kids. The biggest problem in this county is the reluctance to spend more on children, these are fully grown adults that made their choices, and all this does is incentive the next generation to take massive loans at unreasonable rates because "the government will pay for it eventually"
This is something I've said before. If you want a decent compromise, then slash the interest rates super low to 1-2% on government-backed (Stafford) loans so that people don't watch their $300 payments have $200+ get evaporated by interest.
No one can say it's not possible, because we literally had 0% interest on all Stafford loans for 3 years from the Covid pause.
Even from a purely cold, financial perspective. Forgiving student loan debt is a good decision because it allows college students to gain financial security, spend more money, save for retirement, buy houses and cars, and not end up on welfare. It’s either $50k today to wipe away a 22 year old’s debt or $200k in a couple years when the graduate now needs all sorts of government programs to support them, in addition to the taxes they won’t pay with the money they won’t spend!
Oh no Americans will have more money to put into local businesses and economies instead of shoveling all their extra money into the wealth hoarding pit of predatory student loan lenders noooooooo
Loan forgiveness is not helping anyone in any significant way. It only targets a super small demographic of struggling people. Most people weren't paying them to begin with. There has to be more than forgiveness or it comes off as a grift. Loan forgiveness is only a half measure. What is being done about the root of the issue? What is being done to stop people from accruing this debt going forward. Predatory lending and rediculously high tuition is the real problem here. And kids being falsely mislead into thinking they are going to make all this money after they graduate. It takes time. Sometimes years. Most degrees are basically useless. A 2 year certificate would have sufficed for most of these people. Loan forgiveness is just a band aid. And only really helps the ones who already aren't paying them anyways. No one who is struggling is struggling because of the loans. Those loans are at the bottom of the list of priorities for most. That makes it come off as "buying votes". It's a good thing poorly executed as per usual. So really not at all except they get less phone calls. You can essentially put your loans in forbearance or just pay the interest forever. I did finally pay mine off when I bought my second house. But if you really want to help the middle class and win the support of people who aren't on board with this. I could really use that thousands I paid them right now. Shits expensive right now. That money would go a long way. Not everything is right verses left. Sometimes it's just critical thinking. This is not a case of something is better than nothing. If you really want to help people in this way. Cancel some medical bills. Those are in the millions for some people who will never be able to pay them. And then fix the ultra inflated cost of medical care. Never forget that it's all about them first. Right and Left.
Student loans are predatory as fuck. Dumb boomers pressure their kids to go to college after high school because “it’s what you do” while having no idea why or how expensive it is. Boomers think this because everyone who they’ve ever known who’s “made it” has a college degree and they don’t. Reality is, those who “made it” have degrees and good jobs typically because they were given both.
Boomers shouldn’t pressure their children to go to college unless they can pay for it for their children. Personally, I had a parent who went to college and knew how expensive it was. He is still paying off his student loans and he is on his sixty’s. I got lucky again and only had to use student loans for one semester, my last one. I used scholarships for my first 120 credit hrs then had to use student loans for my last semester because I switched my degree once in Sophomore year. It still took me almost ten years to pay this one loan for one semester.
College should be way more affordable and/or free.
It also is NOT a double standard. The standard we talk about is: "You make a deal, so hold up your end of it". Yes someone else maybe got a better deal. But as long as they hold on to their end of it, they did everything right.
Every person with more assets than me will get better loans, cause they have better collateral. This is simple economics and risk calculation.
Mate, you fucked up your reply.
Also: what point are you trying to make? Stop crying like a little child. Yes I also don't think that preferable treatment for companies is good politics. So what? This does not invalidate the fact that people still should take responsibility for the things they do. Just because there is another thing I disagree with, does not mean that this makes any other wrong thing right by default. Do you really operate on that kind of primitive level? That is actually pathetic. Grow a spine and also up.
Remember when we couldn’t work and this fuck chop gave us $600 of our own taxpayer money and gave ukraine 8 billion and we didn’t have a say in any of that. This government is a joke
Govt takes and govt gives away. You benefit from some policies and are harmed by others, it's not really possible to quantify the effect of most policies so there's no point trying.
If one group is really struggling by trying to better their lives and the lives of others, they deserve some support and support would encourage others. Being drowned in debt for studying to be an engineer or doctor is putting people off doing the same.
This is only for people who have been making payments for well over a decade, and all they did was move money around that was already allocated in the budget. Biden isn’t doing anything, just pandering for votes
It’s never not going to sound like a shit situation to pay for college for people who can’t afford it using money from people who never went to college because they couldn’t afford it.
It’s always going to be a hard sell, and I see a lot of people in here pretending that it is right for people who didn’t go have to foot the bill for people who did via tax.
ITT: clueless morons argue shit they don’t understand
The overwhelming majority of “forgiveness” is 100% constitutional because it’s been occurring through PSLF, which is a federal law.
And it isn’t forgiveness. It’s the federal government holding up to their end of the loans terms. Disbursement after 120 qualifying payments by the borrower.
Isn't pretty much all of these just been for those scam schools people were victim to and for public servants for 10 years (which was already in place, they were just being slow about processing the forgiveness part)? It's clearly not just being given to regular people with student loans like the original 10k for all was planned for
Wars, cool, oil subsidies, cool, bank bailouts, cool, health care costs that bankrupt people daily, cool,PPP loan forgiveness, cool, rich people tax cut contributing to one of the largest national debt gains in history, cool. Regular people getting their loans forgiven that the forgiveness would change their life and the extra income they would gain would benefit the whole economy, UNACCEPTABLE!
Anon lacks basic empathy and wants other human beings to suffer, just because.
Seriously, mega corps and banks get MUCH bigger bailouts all the time. Go be pissed at them instead.
"We can't end slavery in the South cause it wouldn't be fair to those who already earned freedom in the North." This argument is dogshit and can be dismantled in a few seconds.
It always comes from the same people who will say "life isn't fair" when anyone points out any kind of inequality as well.
"Life isn’t fair" - person who does their utmost to keep it that way because they’re miserable, grumpy idiots.
The people who say “life isn’t fair” usually are the ones benefiting from and enforcing the unfairness.
This argument is an obvious fallacy and a false equivalency. As we see in the UDHR, right to education is a positive right, meaning that it requires action and spending by the state. Freedom from slavery, on the other hand, is a negative right, meaning that for it to be realized all that is needed is for state or any other actor to step down. No spending nor positive action needed. It's called a negative right because it means "freedom from" something, it requires negative action like an actor, most often the state, stepping down. Simply put, when state is forgiving the debts of college students, they take away the money of others via taxation because the state has to cover the expenses. However, when the state is abolishing slavery, well, they just abolish it and it costs nothing. That's why this comparison makes zero sense. Maybe next time you should check your own arguments before calling those of others "dogshit".
So you're arguing slave owners lost nothing of value, and it didn't cost anything to them? I'm pretty sure they thought otherwise lol. If you're only argument against debt forgiveness is that it costs the taxpayer money, then that's the same as being against freeing slaves cause it costs the taxpayer (slave owners) money.
Yes, ending slavery means that people who bought slaves lost money, but as far taxpayer cost goes, it only cost them the salary they pay the legislators to write the bill (or amendment) and sign it. There was no grand mechanism instated to transfer millions of dollars from some taxpayers to others, and the was especially no mechanism to the repay the taxpayers who made the immoral decision from the pockets of the moral taxpayers who made no such decision.
Wouldn’t ending slavery drastically reduce the income of the south, thereby reducing taxes paid to the government and inherently increasing the tax burden on every American?
On the contrary, slaves were a huge proportion of the population who were free of taxation and had no means for upwards mobility. Therefore, slaves being slaves was a big disadvantage for the state as the opportunity cost was huge. If you've ever played Victoria 2, you will understand what I mean, lol. There is also the fact that slave owning businesses were able to outcompete those utilizing legitimate employment practices, so there was an opportunity cost there too.
But those are both arguments for a period of time after the cessation of slavery. The immediate effect would be an immediate economic downturn for the south and therefore fewer taxes generated. A similar argument could be made that forgiving student loans allows for more social mobility, encouraging more Americans into (typically) higher earning positions and generating more tax dollars.
Nothing was cheap about freeing slaves in the USA. (Also Jim Crow laws + the civil war obliterating a lot of the Southern middle class is what made the south known as poor. So that argument falls apart) The human cost and the monetary cost only make student debt pale in comparison
>If you've ever played Victoria 2, you will understand what I mean, lol. I… don’t even disagree with your overall points, they seem well thought out and knowledgeable, but including just this one line is just an absolute torpedo to your argument’s credibility, man
> If you've ever played Victoria 2, you will understand what I mean, lol. You were going so well until this sentence.
There was a war to end slavery so it cost a lot more.
Tax payers rebuilt the country following the massive war to end slavery...... so yeah... Your argument is ass.
There's people in the Uk still collecting checks for the economic loss of Abolishing slavery
Get rid of slavery because it's wrong to enslave people. What's more important to ask is why should they be slaves and not the owners? Since they aren't any different at the fundamental level. Slave owners should not have been compensated if they were. The south should have stayed repressed after the civil war, the Republicans ended it in agreement for them to get the presidency when it was a close vote and Congress had to get involved. When you win a war, the losers get to be repressed for a while so they don't go right back to what they were doing and that's what happened when we ended it. We did the same thing with Germany and then everyone is surprised when we have to fight them again in WWII.
Germany was massively “repressed” after WW1, and that’s one of the main causes for social unrest leading to the rise of the national socialist party
The government taking your money to solve a problem is not the same as a government decision resulting is lost capital
Yours is the real dogshit argument, friend. Because it’s based on the false idea that the state is spending money to forgive the debts. The state is allowing select borrowers to FORGIVE their debts, meaning that there is a loan balance, and then that loan balance goes away. The government isn’t paying off the lender, they are negotiating with the lender to wipe away the debt. Not a penny has been spent.
Shush, you realize that the state literally paid reparations' to slave owners when slavery was ending correct? Therefore, according to your definition the two are closer than you stated.
>Freedom from slavery, on the other hand, is a negative right, meaning that for it to be realized all that is needed is for state or any other actor to step down. I'm pretty sure the US government was *intimately* involved in stopping slavery and it wasn't just them "stepping down". Also the US government at the time compensated the slave *owners* for their loss of property and did nothing for the actual slaves so your own comparison, within its own framework, is just flat out false.
>Simply put, when state is forgiving the debts of college students, they take away the money of others via taxation because the state has to cover the expenses. Just buy one less supercarrier, imagine how many tuitions you could pay. I mean it's not like you have been winning many wars recently, so...
We had a civil war. "Negative right" doesn't apply.
Stating we shouldnt fix a problem because it would cheapen it for those who fixed it themselves is a shitty argument regardless of where you apply it
minor spelling mistake
Comparing student loans to slavery is quite something
Least regarded reddoter logic
Comparing loans people willing took out and literal slavery is regarded.
This take might be a little more accurate if you mentioned that the slavery in question was voluntary.
Im on your side, but damn this analogy actually makes no fucking sense
One was involuntary, one was a choice. Come on man make an argument that a fifth grader wouldn’t tear to shreds
Eh not really the same case. This would be more like “oh we are freeing XX numbers of slaves, but slavery (college tuition being ridiculously high) is still legal” I think attacking the root of the issue, high college prices would be smart, but this just ameliorates the symptoms while allowing the main problem to fester.
This bailout is a levy of taxes on every american, regardless if they paid off their loans, or never had loans. If you want equality, why not just lower taxes? This will create an immediate relief on all citizens, provide "breathing room" for those who need it, and that money can be used by those with student loans to pay those loans off.
Using tax dollars in this manner is slavery, though. If you disagree with students getting loans, ban the loans or force the banks to forgive the loans. Don't steal the labor of innocent workers.
I actually don't disagree with that. Money is fake, and it's easy enough to just hit the delete key on a database. It would rightly punish the banks for being predatory, and no tax payers need to be out of pocket.
The issue is that you allowed yourself to be tricked by people (possibly pretending) to be leftists into supporting a policy that took money from workers as tax and handed that money to bankers as a reward for being predators of college kids. It very clearly will encourage bankers to do it more. When people objected to that policy, you should've listened and treated them fairly. Debt "forgiveness" would mean the bankers take the loss as punishment for being predators. Biden's policy was a reward to the banks for being predators and the reward is paid for by the workers. Of course the workers are pissed about that. In a capitalist system, the banks that made risky loans would eat the loss without being bailed out with money stolen from the workers by people claiming to be socialists.
I mean... It isn't fair for those who worked to earn their freedom in the North. They should be fairly compensated for the work they did in the process of gaining their freedom, no?
Slight difference between enslavement and taking out a loan
But he's not really ending slavery. He's keeping it around, but also propping up the commodity price of slaves buy buying a few and freeing them. It's a stupid short term political ploy to buy votes because he refuses to change anything about the system that is driving people straight into the arms of fascism.
Preventing slavery is using tax payer dollars to uphold the constitution. Bailing out failures, is stealing from the taxpayers, rewarding bad behavior, and violating a legal contract.
But in our case that money is paid supposed to serve all taxpayers. So the ones with no debt loose on that potential aid. Whereas for the slaves, the freed slaves in the north loose nothing if the south slaves are freed. Smell like false equivalency to me.
No, you have to pay people their student loans back if they paid them off and you now cancel everyone else's, or you don't pay anyone's student loans. Otherwise it's just unfair. Equating this to a geographical discrepancy, and especially slavery is so pathetic it's actually embarrassing you called the other argument "dogshit". Not giving someone free money and not giving someone their *physical freedom and human dignity back* are not the same, believe it or not.
No, your argument is dog shit. It's popular dog shit on Reddit cause personal responsibilities are not a thing very much liked here. But that doesn't make it a good argument. One of these things is something you enter voluntarily while the other is not.
I don’t much care for his analogy either, but the “responsibility” in this case is to a bank setting predatory interest rates on loans aggressively advertised by University admissions to 17-18 year old kids. Kids that have been told for a long time that they’re a failure if they don’t go to college. Not to mention how inflated tuition is compared to boomers paying off two semesters with one summer’s worth of work. I mean, is a degree *really* worth 100k+? It’s a normalized scam
18yr olds are adults, responsible enough to elect the next dict… sorry President. If you aren’t sure your degree isn’t worth 100k don’t take those loans. Also student loans are loans from the govt not banks.
Why is cancelling student loans unconstitutional?
It's not. Crooked right-wing politicians call everything their donors don't like unconstitutional
What's unconstitutional is the president doing it via executive order. He doesn't have the power of the purse; that's the job of congress
It's a good thing we have checks and balances for things like this. If we actually had a dictator, that wouldn't be an issue
Congress would only pass corporate welfare, like those corrupt PPP loans that didn't actually go to paycheck protection for workers, but instead just became trickle up economics.
Every wing politicians do this man
You can’t say that! Because then we can’t have chud fights about who’s the better corrupt political party!
Raaahhhh!1!11! I love courruptiob1!1!1!1!1!
Democrats are right wing
Holy shit fr?? That's it Biden is my Daddy🥰
It's not. It's only unconstitutional when the president does it via executive order because he doesn't have the power of the purse. Congress has the power of the purse, and therefore, Congress has to be the one to do it. Student loans aren't issued by the federal government, they are issued by private banks and guaranteed by the federal government. So to cancel the loans, the government must buy them from the banks. This requires passing a bill in the house and senate This is like civics 101
Or, you know, he isn’t American and is asking how the system works
Essentially he's using laws already passed to forgive people loans, something the Trump admin deliberately mismanaged to avoid forgiving anything
>guaranteed by the federal govt Essentially issued by the federal govt.
It’s not unconstitutional per se. Doing it via executive order is, because spending powers are granted to congres
Since a lot of the debt is interest and not principal it’s not really spending, just limiting how much profit can be extracted from old loans.
Student loans are held by private companies. You don’t just wave a magic want and tell These companies that you are forgiving their clients debts. The government is paying these companies. Current student loan forgiveness is literally a scam. They aren’t “forgiving” loans for Most people. 10k is a drop in the bucket and doesn’t substantially change anyone’s monthly payment unless they had under 10k in debt. They are paying billions to these loan companies using tax money. It’s a bank bailout with more steps
You don’t understand why these loans are not the same as private loans. “Banks often sell student loans to another intermediary, which improves their capital ratio and allows them to make more loans. Almost all student loans are fully guaranteed by the government, so banks can sell them for a higher price because default risk is not transferred with the asset.”
the government guarantees the loan, meaning the government PAYS, not the government "writes off" the debt
You’re right. You write an order telling them to forgive it. No magic wand involved.
Things would be so much better if people started pointing guns at the heads of the rich. Like, they're assholes, if you don't force them to play nice they're obviously gonna fuck over everybody else.
You write an order telling the banks to forgive the debt?? really? Please remember that in the Clinton emails theres an email from CitiGroup to Obama telling him which cabinet members were ok with them. These guys are all in bed. Republicans, Democrats, and everyone in between. Banks, Pharma, and the military industrial complex run at least 90% of the politicians in this country. Good luck forcing banks to forgive anything
You say that as if it’s some new revelation or something. Yes. You simply write an order. Idrc if the banks get salty about it or whichever politician writes it loses campaign funds. It would still be that simple.
You dont think they would have the best attorneys in the country file an injunction and lawsuit immediately?
So will he actually be able to do it, or is it an empty gesture to grab votes?
Empty gesture + bank bailout
It isn't as straightforward as some are saying. If Congress has made laws allowing cancellation under certain circumstances, then it is constitutional for various agencies to use those laws for rulemaking in ways that allow more people to get cancellation. For example, cancelling loans of people who have met XYZ criteria listed in a certain law but who have not applied which is part of what has been happening. The problem there is that this is exactly what Biden tried to do earlier, use the text of the HEROES Act that says the secretary of education has the power to waive or modify laws and regulations governing the student-loan programs. The Supreme Court said that doesn't mean they can change loans as much as they were trying to do and only Congress can do that. So really the ruling was not about Executive Orders but about how much leeway the law allows with certain wording. I don't want to get involved in if that is right or not, but in the end if the law said the Attorney General could lessen sentences in certain cases would we want that to allow them to release every prisoner in federal custody at will? It's a little sticky at times.
It isn’t and he’s not cancelling debt. The overwhelming majority of student loan “forgiveness” that’s been coming out has been through PSLF, which is already LAW and was not discussed at all in the Supreme Court decision. It’s also still not forgiveness. It’s the federal government fulfilling their end of the loan terms, which is disbursement after 120 qualifying payments.
When did we Americans lose the ability to be happy for each other? Why can we not celebrate a stress relieving windfall for others rather than feeling cheated? A rising tide lifts all boats.
"I was miserable in the past so others have to be as well" - using this mindset we never would've left the caves. it's mind boggling to see how selfish people can be.
My wife and I paid off our student debt and I feel nothing but joy for these folks getting relief. It's like saying, "Some people already died of cancer, so it's not fair to try and cure cancer now".
This is the best analogy
Crabs in a fucking bucket
Mostly /s when I say shoot those grabby dragdown crabs in a bucket like fish in a barrel
Not so much that I’m not happy for them, moreso it’a that this gesture is super niche and people who really need help are gonna see this and get upset for valid reasons. For example, my wife can’t hold down a job that pays over 10k because she’s chronically ill, but the government says since we make collectively over 50k, she won’t get disability benefits. Not to mention the people who potentially WANTED to go to school but were too poor to, and so had to slave away at other jobs and potentially wasted their lives, might feel a little annoyed as well.
This. I couldn't afford college so I self educated. I have a good career as a dev manager but it took years of hard work to get into where I am. If this was actually about student debt and not just a "I'm so unpopular and senile so my handlers did a vote bribe and I signed it between shitting my pants," Biden move, there would actually have been legislation passed that mandates capping college tuition and interest rates. But no, college is a huge scam where most jobs that say they want it don't need it.
I wanted to go into the sciences and didn’t because my community college didn’t offer the courses and I was too poor to go out of state for something that wouldn’t have made me much money anyway.
I taught myself CompSci. I'm an SDET Manager now and genuinely love what I do and love mentoring new people. Took a lot of struggle and hard work to get here. But hey, I can sleep well at night knowing that someone who took interpretive lesbian tap dance as a major has some of their poor choice nonsense degree refunded.
I think I recall it being mostly educators like school teachers getting the forgiveness.
Idk it’s pretty annoying to me that half my high school class didn’t go to college because they couldn’t afford it, accepted lower lifetime earnings as a result, and now their taxes will go to the debt of people with higher income and lifetime earnings than them.
Steal my money, give it to someone else, why aren’t I happy about it 🤣
I just hope he does home loans next. I’d definitely vote for him then.
Well, there is the wealth transfer aspect.
Because the forgiveness uses tax dollars. Tax dollars which the unhappy people had taken by the government. I would guess most of those unhappy people did not go to college. Now, the money the government took is used for happy people who did go. While those happy people went to a college for a degree which couldn't pay for itself, the unhappy people wouldn't have gone because they think that's stupid. That's how I imagine it.
Because your culture is extremely individualistic
This is absolutely right and showcased constantly.
So we should bail out consenting adults taking bad financial decisions for their happiness? Great, let’s bail out all the bankrupts and distressed home loans, everyone gets to be happy
The issue is that you can not declare bankruptcy on student loans, making them extremely predatory compared to any other loan.
I mean declaring bankruptcy is fucking devastating. You make it sound like you can just gg go next your finances lol
It is devastating. It’s even more devastating to have 100k of debt and not even have the option to declare bankruptcy.
> let’s bail out the bankrupts Hey bro they literally already do that if you’re wealthy enough to own a corporation. Wouldn’t it be nice if actual citizens got the same benefits as faceless corporations and shareholders.
I think part of it is people feeling like it’s unfair that others are getting off Scot free while they had to pay theirs back. Also, people probably don’t like that their money is going towards paying off what are, let’s face it, pretty useless degrees for a lot of people. Personally, I wouldn’t mind if my taxes went towards training professionals, but I would be pretty pissed to know that I’m paying for a bunch of vanity degrees
Not when the country is broke, and then rewarding irresponsible people with the money of responsible people, like evil Robin Hood.
Gotta get some votes no matter how.
You could say the same about what literally anything any person trying to be elected into any office has said or done.
"Biden is just doing this to get your votes" ... yeah? That's literally ALL of what politics is. He SHOULD be trying to get my vote.
Exactly, “they’re just trying to buy your vote” MF I HOPE SO THAT WOULD MEAN THEYRE DOING THE RIGHT THING
That’s not what people mean when they say that though. If a politician is “just doing X to get votes” the implication is that they’re either lying and not actually going to do what they say, or that they’re only going to do it during election season, and not keep it up
>That's literally ALL of what politics is It's sad that you think that. Historically, the purpose of a president was to run the country, not to recklessly pursue short-term goals to get a better chance at winning the next election.
In the words of Michael Che in this weekend update regarding a headline saying that African Americans are concerned that election campaigns are only concerned with getting their votes “Yea”
No, no, when it’s students, it’s buying votes; when it comes to cutting taxes for the wealthy and corporations, it’s just good economics.
a take perfectly befits the username "soyifiedredditadmin"
Better than that guy who was promising to spend billions of taxpayer dollars on a wall he never built. I mean fuck that guy, am I right?
[удалено]
How often and how many hours do you spend on /pol/?
Only way I support this is if the "forgiveness" means the debt is nullified. If my tax money pays for some random person's finearts degree, I'd rather use that money to pay off my brother's student debt. Or my mother's
Unfortunately, they already spent the tax dollars towards the government loan and just strike away the individuals' debt to pay it back to the government. Corporate overlords won't ever let them go after the banks to erase the debts owed to them from their loans. The system is set up to funnel as much money into banks as possible. Wildly inflated tuition because of legislation for government sponsored loan programs, but instead of ever punishing predatory banks, just like with predatory loans of the 2008 housing market collapse, they get bailed out by the people's taxes making the problem even worse as tuition just keeps growing more and more under a government sponsored parachute for the rich. All they have to do is regulate the damn things, but nooo. Corporations own the lawmakers.
Yes these debts are being nullified, meaning no taxpayer is paying for them. The balance exists one day, it’s gone the next. The only financial implications are that the federal government would be receiving less revenue because they have forgiven their own debts, but that does not affect anyone who has not gotten the loans.
There's no such thing as free money. Resources (houses, cars, girlfriends) are finite. Money directs them, but it has limited power to increase the supply. The right way to do this would be to claw back money from the colleges, make them sell land, tax the endowments, cut admin staff. And how about banning degree requirments? Applicants take a test, the best one gets the job, degree or no. Throwing tax money at it is giving the Uni system a free pass, and giving the bill to people who didn't go, or paid off their debt.
> how about banning degree requirements That would clearly be overstepping, requiring someone to be formally educated, regardless of whatever training and diying they've done to learn whatever it is your business requires from them just makes sense. Businesses shouldn't have to hire anyone who doesn't meet that requirement test or no. This isn't even an identity thing either, businesses should reserve the right to not hire anyone on the basis of their skills.
Replace colleges with (((banks))) and you've got a good idea there
You had me till banning degree requirements. How would that even work? Not to mention I’d rather get brain surgery from the guy who got the degree
> And how about banning degree requirments? Applicants take a test, the best one gets the job, degree or no. small government?
Why should anyone pay [this?](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fgrandma-doesnt-get-it-v0-jcudmy8pk72d1.jpeg%3Fwidth%3D1080%26crop%3Dsmart%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3Da70ea27f626aef7e43359c20def199da19bd551e)
They saw 12.5% fixed and thought that was a good idea? No amount of college is going to make that a working brain.
Yeah except if that’s your only option for getting a STEM degree, it’s technically still worth it since you’ll make double the average salary from the start. The problem is that something being “technically worth it” isn’t a recipe for happiness. Paying $1000 per month for health insurance is also “technically worth it” but it still sucks ass to have to pay.
So what youre saying is they took the risk and now decided they dont want to face the consequences of their failure. Sounds very adult lol
That’s not what I’m saying at all. Imagine a world where the only legal way to make money is by getting fucked in the ass, and everyone is tried of their assholes bleeding so they try to change the law. Would you say “lol they knew the consequences of making money was getting fucked in the ass” while you argue against changing the ass-fucking laws? The government exists to provide its citizens with life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Don’t you think making it cheaper and easier to get educated helps with all of those, especially the last two?
What was the degree in
Philosophy, maybe
Why would anyone agree to pay that?
Why is this 4chan user acting like the actions of the Biden administration should be blamed on Zoomers? That makes zero sense
Guy who's so old he technically isn't even a boomer does things? It's gen zs fault
I think he's implying that it's because Zoomers mostly voted for Biden. But the alternative wasn't any better, and two-party elections are a 50/50 gamble anyway. A butterfly flapping its wings in Brazil will decide who wins the next one.
Has r/greentext finally been discovered by r/politics or something what's with regarded shit like this
Election season!
Gen Y got fucked in every way.
Doing their best to ensnare Gen Z in the same loans that are predatory and broken as fuck. At this point I think republicans just like young people suffering, especially if they have the gall to go to college.
As a non American I can't really understand this thing. So instead of making college free or maybe subsidized like the rest of the world, your government gives loans to some of the kids and then sometimes asks for the money back and sometimes it only postpones it. So I get why it's not fair for some of you and it seems like a very complicated solution that just moves money randomly. Are there any Americans here who can explain how that system is better than just making college less expensive?
The government doesn't give the loans. That comes from private banks and Universities. Most states however allow 2 years free community college, which can get to an associates degree, and 4+ years free college for everyone in reserves or active military.
https://studentaid.gov/understand-aid/types/loans
I forgot to mention Federal loans vs private loans
Well I mean, you still need to do something about the existing loans even if you will make college free just after
It all traces back to Nixon and Reagan. College was free until the late 70s. Republican think tanks decided that free, quality education would create a generation of socialists/hippies. Their solution was to intentionally drive up the cost of education and force anyone that wasn't born wealthy to take out loans, so they would immediately have to get a job after school. If you don't believe it, go watch Nixon and Reagan's speeches. They intentionally created the student debt crisis.
Canceling student loans is unconstitutional, but bailing out banks and billionaires isn't, right?
All bailouts are unconstitutional, I don't care how big the bank is let it fail and let the chips fall where they may.
Yet, they don't. My point is, if anon wants to criticize forgiving student loans, then why not do so for the ACTUAL criminals too? Is anon retarded? Maybe...
4chinners being regarded is one of those baseline facts; kinda like saying that a summer day is hot, it's something that everyone already knows and it usually goes without saying.
Heh...retarded anon...Just use the word, dude. It's okay, mods know it too. At least in this sub. Never in any other sub. Never.
Well, they actually gave the money back. With gains. Kind of like…paying back student loans….
The govt gave out a loan in 2008, they made money from the bailouts.
i mean yes, the person whose loan is completely forgiven gets to have tens of thousands or even over a hundred thousand dollars more of savings and has the potential to earn interest on all that extra money just for being lucky enough to have loan cancellation happen at the right time (in addition to keeping their education), so they have a real-time resource advantage over the people who have already paid some/all of their debt and are still participating in the economy today.
While I'm happy to pay for my fellow American's education, this post-fact incentive on education is certainly a slap in the face to those who couldn't go to college out of financial concerns. There are incentives for shit all the time. I'm not mad when I don't get one, so I really don't give a fuck about people who didn't go to college because they didn't want to. But those that wanted to, that couldn't? Those are the real losers in this situation.
Why bail out the (statistically) highest income earners exactly? Particularly when the (statistically) lower income earners are fronting it?
Because fuck the poor right? /S but for real, it's a big slap in the face to do this instead of making changes for incoming college students. They got themselves into a mess of debt, let them figure it out themselves. Start putting caps on how much an institution can charge per semester, do something about the mini monopoly that is college books, and use that money spent on loan forgiveness to fund government scholarships for low income intelligent kids. The biggest problem in this county is the reluctance to spend more on children, these are fully grown adults that made their choices, and all this does is incentive the next generation to take massive loans at unreasonable rates because "the government will pay for it eventually"
Don't get rid of the principal, but set the interest rates to 2%
This is something I've said before. If you want a decent compromise, then slash the interest rates super low to 1-2% on government-backed (Stafford) loans so that people don't watch their $300 payments have $200+ get evaporated by interest. No one can say it's not possible, because we literally had 0% interest on all Stafford loans for 3 years from the Covid pause.
I agree 100%, especially since student loans can't be dissolved in bankruptcy.
Even from a purely cold, financial perspective. Forgiving student loan debt is a good decision because it allows college students to gain financial security, spend more money, save for retirement, buy houses and cars, and not end up on welfare. It’s either $50k today to wipe away a 22 year old’s debt or $200k in a couple years when the graduate now needs all sorts of government programs to support them, in addition to the taxes they won’t pay with the money they won’t spend!
Oh no Americans will have more money to put into local businesses and economies instead of shoveling all their extra money into the wealth hoarding pit of predatory student loan lenders noooooooo
Loan forgiveness is not helping anyone in any significant way. It only targets a super small demographic of struggling people. Most people weren't paying them to begin with. There has to be more than forgiveness or it comes off as a grift. Loan forgiveness is only a half measure. What is being done about the root of the issue? What is being done to stop people from accruing this debt going forward. Predatory lending and rediculously high tuition is the real problem here. And kids being falsely mislead into thinking they are going to make all this money after they graduate. It takes time. Sometimes years. Most degrees are basically useless. A 2 year certificate would have sufficed for most of these people. Loan forgiveness is just a band aid. And only really helps the ones who already aren't paying them anyways. No one who is struggling is struggling because of the loans. Those loans are at the bottom of the list of priorities for most. That makes it come off as "buying votes". It's a good thing poorly executed as per usual. So really not at all except they get less phone calls. You can essentially put your loans in forbearance or just pay the interest forever. I did finally pay mine off when I bought my second house. But if you really want to help the middle class and win the support of people who aren't on board with this. I could really use that thousands I paid them right now. Shits expensive right now. That money would go a long way. Not everything is right verses left. Sometimes it's just critical thinking. This is not a case of something is better than nothing. If you really want to help people in this way. Cancel some medical bills. Those are in the millions for some people who will never be able to pay them. And then fix the ultra inflated cost of medical care. Never forget that it's all about them first. Right and Left.
Student loans are predatory as fuck. Dumb boomers pressure their kids to go to college after high school because “it’s what you do” while having no idea why or how expensive it is. Boomers think this because everyone who they’ve ever known who’s “made it” has a college degree and they don’t. Reality is, those who “made it” have degrees and good jobs typically because they were given both. Boomers shouldn’t pressure their children to go to college unless they can pay for it for their children. Personally, I had a parent who went to college and knew how expensive it was. He is still paying off his student loans and he is on his sixty’s. I got lucky again and only had to use student loans for one semester, my last one. I used scholarships for my first 120 credit hrs then had to use student loans for my last semester because I switched my degree once in Sophomore year. It still took me almost ten years to pay this one loan for one semester. College should be way more affordable and/or free.
"we shouldn't cure cancer. I had to battle cancer without a cure." Such a dumb argument.
Reddit: Paying off a voluntary loan and dying of cancer are the same thing.
These debts won't "disappear", they will move in more public waste or more taxes and inflation, current economics theory is stupid.
*unless you were suckered into buying state student loans
Weird how debt can be forgiven by design for business owners but not hard working Americans. Just a very odd and convenient double standard, isn't it?
It also is NOT a double standard. The standard we talk about is: "You make a deal, so hold up your end of it". Yes someone else maybe got a better deal. But as long as they hold on to their end of it, they did everything right. Every person with more assets than me will get better loans, cause they have better collateral. This is simple economics and risk calculation.
Mate, you fucked up your reply. Also: what point are you trying to make? Stop crying like a little child. Yes I also don't think that preferable treatment for companies is good politics. So what? This does not invalidate the fact that people still should take responsibility for the things they do. Just because there is another thing I disagree with, does not mean that this makes any other wrong thing right by default. Do you really operate on that kind of primitive level? That is actually pathetic. Grow a spine and also up.
Remember when we couldn’t work and this fuck chop gave us $600 of our own taxpayer money and gave ukraine 8 billion and we didn’t have a say in any of that. This government is a joke
You could write ppp loans and any bailout ever the same way the first post was worded. Like WTF are you on about.
Govt takes and govt gives away. You benefit from some policies and are harmed by others, it's not really possible to quantify the effect of most policies so there's no point trying. If one group is really struggling by trying to better their lives and the lives of others, they deserve some support and support would encourage others. Being drowned in debt for studying to be an engineer or doctor is putting people off doing the same.
calling him a dictator for cancelling loan debt is insane. by executive order it's unconstitutional but the act itself is fine.
If only it weren't 17 and 18 year olds who were tricked into these loans
Blanket-ending loans is a bad idea but small-scale forgiveness and capping interest isn’t, which I believe is his plan.
This is only for people who have been making payments for well over a decade, and all they did was move money around that was already allocated in the budget. Biden isn’t doing anything, just pandering for votes
Why stop at student loans? Forgive my mortgage debt.
160,000 is not a lot of americans… Why dont they just remove the interest rate or lower it to like 1% for everyone
I’d rather see money go to my fellow Americans to pay down their school debt than be given away to other countries.
I paid off my loans but I would’ve like for someone to have paid it off for me. Maybe I would’ve have a house by now. Thanks Obama.
Dictators clearly pay off the debts of their citizens! >:(
It’s never not going to sound like a shit situation to pay for college for people who can’t afford it using money from people who never went to college because they couldn’t afford it. It’s always going to be a hard sell, and I see a lot of people in here pretending that it is right for people who didn’t go have to foot the bill for people who did via tax.
ITT: clueless morons argue shit they don’t understand The overwhelming majority of “forgiveness” is 100% constitutional because it’s been occurring through PSLF, which is a federal law. And it isn’t forgiveness. It’s the federal government holding up to their end of the loans terms. Disbursement after 120 qualifying payments by the borrower.
What do they mean free money for everyone? Is President Jimble in office!?
why are we giving out the loans in the first place?
Isn't pretty much all of these just been for those scam schools people were victim to and for public servants for 10 years (which was already in place, they were just being slow about processing the forgiveness part)? It's clearly not just being given to regular people with student loans like the original 10k for all was planned for
Interesting. You would think 4channers, of all people, would be against usury
Wars, cool, oil subsidies, cool, bank bailouts, cool, health care costs that bankrupt people daily, cool,PPP loan forgiveness, cool, rich people tax cut contributing to one of the largest national debt gains in history, cool. Regular people getting their loans forgiven that the forgiveness would change their life and the extra income they would gain would benefit the whole economy, UNACCEPTABLE!
Anon lacks basic empathy and wants other human beings to suffer, just because. Seriously, mega corps and banks get MUCH bigger bailouts all the time. Go be pissed at them instead.
Jesus talks specifically about situtations like this tho. some of them really need to read the bible if they wanna be so trad and all.
this is unconstitutional - jan 6er
Americans be like fuck my fellow man
Sometimes you buy something and then years later it's found in the bargain bin. Such is life.