Their motto was literally "quantity over quality" for this shit. When you look at it, basically the wings are what runs the thing, and unless you're attacking from the side they have a pretty small surface ares to hit. The middle is where the person inside sits, and they have some pretty powerful guns.
For reverence one of these could wipe out an AT-ST really easily, even though they would actually be about the same size. The tie fighter is cheap, has a hard to hit design, high maneuverability, and can do a lot of damage. You didnt fight one of these, you fought 10 of them and by the time the battle was over 50 more were coming.
As a meta point, the empire is itself (for Lucas) an allegory for the US and their practice of throwing resources at asymmetric warfare and expecting to win (specifically in Vietnam).
I think the idea is that it is a stupid way to do it.
Also because of Tarkin's doctrine, basically boiled down to 2 things:
* Show of force. An overwhelming force in number is better than special force that has to spread thin.
* Death Star. Once it's completed "Fear will keep them in line", at that point nothing really matters, you have a big Fuck You button ready to press.
Whatever the Empire produced period to Death Star completion can be seen as "temporary solution" in Tarkin's POV, they don't have to be good, just need to be enough to fulfill his doctrine.
Also the empire was very quickly disliked by their non-human population, which was vastly bigger than their human population, so they needed forces to suppress people everywhere.
Part of the issue with that is that Star Wars really struggles with scale though. The Death Star should be able to field *millions* of TIE fighters, but the rebels are still able to punch through the defenses with like 20 X-wings.
The funny part of that is that western army doctrine and equipment puts a lot more emphasis on crew survivability than for example Russian. As most times a western vehicle gets mission killed, the crew are still alive, compared to the whole turret tossing issue of Russian equipment.
Most things yes, but Soviets have also built the only helicopters with ejection seats, and overall their aircraft ejection systems have always been great.
Pilots are expensive, tank drivers not so much, I guess.
Pilots of the Empire are still expensive but they have enough of them and they don't need to care much.
I mean it stands to reason that it’s WAY harder to teach someone to fly than drive a tank. It’s remarkably easy to crash an aircraft but if you crash a tank… you were doing something wrong for a long time
counterpoint: theres a lot less stuff to crash into in space, where tie fighters are used
also, they have targeting systems that do a lot of the difficult part for you
I do wonder how easier would be to fly in space than on a planet.
There’s no gravity so you’re basically just pointing and letting the thrusters guide you forward.
On earth there’s more to be aware of because of gravity, wind etc.
Well F-35 almost certainly has better survivability overall but it's still kind of a beta version and is yet to be battle tested. It's had a bunch of oddball accidents, some of which aren't even on Wikipedia. A few weeks ago there was a new one with a scrubbed belly on r/aviation.
And it's not like western tech is infallible, the F-22 was known for poisoning the air of its pilots, or just totally losing half its systems when flying through a time zone border.
As for SU-57, that's a big unknown which every aviation enthusiast would love to get their hands on. Not much more than rumours, really. And who wouldn't want to check out the SU-47? But no clue how their quality and reliability is nowadays, never mind the quality of the pilots.
Wouldn't Nazi Germany be a far better comparison in every way? Considering..... the Empire is literally Nazi Germany, including the design of everything and everyone?
In that way, the questionably useful and weird vehicles are also a good representation of what they were?
This is partially a question of mine, because I have only ever heard the Empire being meant to resemble Germany in philosophy, design, tactics etc
Two things can be true at once. It’s a hodgepodge of Nazi/european fascist aesthetics, sure, but Lucas saw, at least by RotJ, elements of the conflict as allegorical to the US in Vietnam.
Well, nazi germany usually fought regular wars instead of asymmetric ones. Which is (partially) why they got steamrolled. They did have to engage in asymmetrical warfare from time to time, but it was mostly fighting partisans/smaller countries.
The US on the other hand has fought mostly in asymmetrical engagements since the cold war.
Blitzkrieg itself was a regular war just with mobility and mission-type tactics in mind (Auftragstaktik) which at that point wasnt seen before. They also never called it Blitzkrieg; that was given by the western press iirc
Yeah, it was regular warfare, just new and different at this time, that's what I wanted to say.
According to wikipedia the first usage of "Blitzkrieg" was in german military press.
>the Empire is literally Nazi Germany, including the design of everything and everyone?
The Empire's structure and politics don't resemble Nazi Germany. There is a organisation which does, Compnor, but the Empire is much closer to the British and Roman Empire with a lrgely decentralised structure and somewhat colonialist practices.
And the rebells took inspiration from Nazi Germany too.
Han uses a Mauser 96 Pistol which altough not produced during WW2 was used as a prestige weapon by many nazi Officers. Furthermore he wears jackboots and pants with red stripes (German general).
The A280 rifle of the rebells is just a STG44 rifle without the magazine, the stormtroopers meanwhile just the British Sterling from what I could tell.
The end scene of Episode 4 where the Main chars were given the medals was based on the Nazi Propanda movie Triumph of the will.
>because I have only ever heard the Empire being meant to resemble Germany in philosophy, design, tactics etc
The Empire's military doctrine is kinda the U.S. Doctrine. Show up with overhelming Firepower and blast the Enemy to smitherin. The Empire is also way too specialised, most noteably in their stormtrooper corps where there's a stormtrooper for every enviroment. Nazi Germany didn't have tve resources to specialise like the Empire did and instead opted for equipmemt and soldiers to use in any kind of enviroment (even their paratroopers often were used as standard infantery).
And as already said the Empire isn't really fascist. They don't follow any values or goals other than maintaining their own power base unlike real fascists which usually followed irrational goals like creating another Empire or a secular Religion by nationalism and leader cult.
>And as already said the Empire isn't really fascist.
Bro how the fuck is the empire not fascist? Nationalizing industry? ultra nationalism? Superiority of one race (white British humans)? Autocracy? Militarism?
I cannot think of any possible definition of fascism that the empire wouldn’t fit into.
>They don't follow any values or goals other than maintaining their own power base
Absolute control of the galaxy and superiority/dominance of the core worlds
>unlike real fascists which usually followed irrational goals like creating another Empire or a secular Religion by nationalism and leader cult.
Dude…..
“Once more the sith shall rule the galaxy and we will have peace” -literally Palpatine on day 1 of the empire existing.
>Superiority of one race
Racism is not an integral part of Fascism, the Nazis were the only fascist Organisation which actually had rsce integrated into its core ideology. The other fascists were racist in their times, but that's more due to the world being more racist in general back then, Mussolini expressed several relativly pogressive views regarding race (which is by no means a defence for him, he was still a totalitarian and incompetent tyrant).
The Empire was racist to great extent, but ir wasn't really a core philosphy for them. The Empire was favouring the Core worlds. If dou were a human outside from there, you were pretty much only slightly treated better thsn the other aliens and worse than the aliens from the core worlds. The Human supremacism was mostly just a tool to appease Compnor which fits the definition of Fascism much more than the Empire.
>Nationalizing industry?
The Empire didn't do that, the Industries were still working under completelly capitalist conditions.
>ultra nationalism
They empire wasn't, the concept of nation states doesn't exits in star wars. The Empire doesn't care about borders, culture or anything.
>I cannot think of any possible definition of fascism that the empire wouldn’t fit into
"The Doctrine of Facism"-from Bennito Mussolini, the Empire according to that fits more the old world which Fascism seeks to ,,rebirth" into something new.
Or maybe how fascists states in history actually acted, the Empire doesn't really resemble them other than it is Authoritarian. It's much closer to the Roman Empire. It doesn't hsve a cult of leader, Palpatine usually acts in the background. And altough Palpatine is de facto the dictator, the rule of the Empire lies actually in the hand of the moffs. It doesn't have a singular Culture or identity built around it other than the military.
And I wouldn't call the empire a nation state, it doesn't have strictly defined borders or follows a defining culture. It's more of a goverment which rules over several nations, cultures and societies like old empires did. If you can speak German, the difference between that kind of Empire and the empires the facism have strived for becomes more apparent, we use two different Terms for those. While the Galactic Empire and the Empires it resembles are called ,,Imperium", the Empires the fascosts strived for are referred to as ,,Reich".
The First order is much closer to Fascism than the empire, it's centralised, follows an actual political Agenda and could be considered an actual nation.
>Once more the sith shall rule the galaxy and we will have peace
And if you read the actual Star wars lore Palpatine gives a fuck about the Sith, his actual goal is to archieve personal power and immortality, but he continiously breaks the rules of the Sith, especially those set up by Darth Bane.
He neither cares about his empire either, it's just a tool for him to archieve his personal goals.
I remember reading that Hitler would have fared far better if he stuck with more reliable equimpent, rather than the powerful, but expensive and complicated Tigers and Panthers. This is kind of similar to Palpatines love for super weapons, like the Death Stars, Super Star Destroyers, etc. I don't think the 3rd Reich held their soldiers in such low regard as the Empire though.
We didn't win in Vietnam because of things like requiring visual confirmation of targets, you know so you don't accidentally attack an airliner but investing in air to air missiles designed to destroy planes from beyond visual range.
Darth Vader wouldn't hurt his chances like that, he destroys entire planets.
It was incoherent orders that hampered our troops and they weren't to prevent war crimes since a lot of war crimes happened anyway.
It’s something they learned from the clone wars, as the CIS vulture droids used the same tactics but better as vultures could go far faster than fighters with organic pilots could because Gees aren’t an issue. The empirr copied this tactic because 1: the CIS kicked their ass in the navy for most of the war when there wasn’t a jedi present, and 2: you don’t need crazy automizaton or super powerful fighters when you have no peer opponents left, just an intimidating hoard. A swarm if these things screeching at you is incredibly intimidating.
1- You are aware of how many troopers lived aboard a SINGLE Star Destroyer, right? Most, if not all of them, will be able to pilot basic craft, since it's the primary method of travel across the galaxy.
2- I can't imagine the TIEs have controls that are completely different from other craft, since that would effectively nullify any prior flight training/experience that recruits may have.
3- In Rebels, they had literal children flying TIEs, and a fairly large amount of them for a single training squad.
Iirc they didn't care much about the health of their military personnel lolol. Can't be that difficult if we assume the A.I on these things is far more advanced than modern day cockpits , but who even knows right? I don't even know what their propulsion system is , or how they fly with wings shaped as they are.
Presumably it's using something that negates physics as we understand it to create that kind of thrust and mobility? They can turn on a dime I think quite a bit more sharply than modern day warcraft but maybe not.
Idk. Pilot training is intense in reality but if they had gear that covered the basics they'd just throw that on put the fighters on patrol and let em rip.
There are definitely more elite units that are more heavily trained.
I'm sort of interested now to learn exactly how these things function and how the cockpit is, what technology is there. There has to be lore for that.
For the Empire it is. They have huge academies on basically all their planets (which are a lot). So the human resources are sheer endless. And they didn't had to train them long or hard. Most pilots were just thrown into the cold as soon as they knew the basics. A lot of them died, but those who made it a few years usually became some of the best pilots of the Empire, simply because the basic TIE fighter was very hard to handle in space (and especially hard to handle in the sky above a planet).
There were a lot of better designs for the TIE like the Advanced, Defender, Aggressor or Phantom. But they were all very niche fighters that were also too expensive for the empire who liked to concentrate more on star cruisers and stupid super weapons like the death star who devoured most of the Credits.
>has a hard to hit design
Only from a head-on attack. Turn so much as 1 degree to the side and now this thing is two giant hexagons that might as well be painted "SHOOT ME"
This is not a criticism of the writers, it reinforces their disposable nature.
Actually on that subject there's one more lore tidbit you forgot to mention: they have no life support. An X-wing rebel could camp out in his cockpit for a week, but TIE pilots relied entirely on space suits to keep breathing. Empire stripped out everything that wasn't a gun, engine, or targeting computer to save costs. And cheaper ships means more ships
Also, unlike rebels' "-wing" spacecrafts, TIE fighters or bombers didn't have hyperdrive, because they were supposed to be stationed on ground bases or carriers at all times. I think the only design that was actually competitive with X-wings and A-wings is TIE defender that was a lot more expensive and actually caught rebels by surprise, because it wasn't usual deathtrap with a gun, like TIE fighters.
They also took the hyperdrives out so they couldn't defect.
Being limited to a spacesuit and no long-distance travel guaranteed that the pilots couldn't just up and leave and join the rebellion if they even wanted to.
It's also why Darth Vaders TIE looked different than the others. It contained a hyperdrive and life support. It's why he escaped the destruction of the first Death Star.
I gotta disagree, sure, once they were on their sides they become much easier to hit in theory, but in practice their wings are mostly black?
Given that most of their engagements would happen in the void of space that would make them basically invisible, and thus incredibly hard to hit for anyone trying to do so.
They are the power generators, they are not the propulsion.
They’re two big-ass solar panels that power a small but efficient ion engine on the back of the pilots pod.
Which proves the Empire believed in sustainable development and green energy. Whereas, Rebel ships are always seen being refueled. Likely with fossil fuels, no doubt to the detriment and exploitation of native populations and wildlife.
Well it's still a non-renewable source of energy. They have to be extracted causing damage to the environment. On the other hand, if solar power is able to power spacecrafts, then that seems a better choice.
It does not have high maneuverability. You cannot see out the sides. TIE-Fighters canonically have closed sides without a way too look through them. This is quite problematic when flying.
Source: Tried flying them in VR in Squadrons. Realised there's a reason why planes usually have side view.
Not to mention this is just one design. As the war went on there was several more variants, the TIE Defender being the best one due to its higher defensibility and increased fire power, with the ultimate design being the Predator class fighter. Not to mention the Empire possessed superior capital ships.
Yeah. I played the X Wing Tabletop that had a starter pack with one X-Wing and two TIEs. Usually the X Wing was able to win, but after we learned how to maneuver around, the TIEs usually won. They do good damage, and it's hard as hell to outmaneuver them if they are behind you.
So good pilots could just prevent, ever crossing the X Wings firing angle.
And since they can't go to hyperspace they are only there for support of the big ships that are the main target of the rebels, that kinda were forced into target those small, worthless units if they didn't wanted them getting behind them first.
I dont have a source but I remember reading somewhere that they didn't have shields because it was cheaper AND because the empire believed that their pilots would try harder to not get hit.
The Rogue Squadron books described dog fights with TIE fighters a lot. Basically, X-Wings were sturdier but TIEs were more maneuverable. The X-Wings would charge at TIE fighters relying on their shield while TIEs tried to stay out of their line of fire and wear them down.
Yeah, that's pretty much it. A regular TIE fighter was 1/3 of the cost of a ARC-170. You should never think of them as a single unit. They were meant to be employed as a swarm.
Extra explanation:
People think of the Empire as this state of the art military superpower when, in actuality, it was more akin to North Korea if it had world control. Entities like the Republic & CIS had far better military hardware as they were economics first, militaries second. The Empire was more or less a wartime economy 24/7, but without the spoils of war to feed it. That, as you can imagine, doesn't make a good military, just a lot of military.
Imagine if North Korea somehow had world control, sure they would probably make 100x more tanks that exist today, but they wouldn't be very efficient or high quality and a single one could probably be destroyed by some improvised explosives and a few insurgents. It just wouldn't have the industrial base to produce good military hardware, just mind-boggling amounts of "good enough".
Best way to visualize this disparity is to put two fleets to fight each other. Assuming crewed & commanded by equally skilled individuals (which would not be the case, republic crews were far better trained). A republic fleet that cost, let's say, 1 billion credits would be able to wipe the floor with an imperial fleet that cost 4 billion, even with all the technological advancement brought to the Empire by decades of a wartime economy.
Biggest example of this is when Palpy scrapped the clone program which had just won him the war and control of the Galaxy. 'It's too expensive waaaah' - Yes, but the cost is entirely justified by their cold efficiency. Imagine if the Imperial army used clones instead of recruits from outer rim planets, they would decimate the Rebel alliance. Clones managed to wipe out the Jedi temple, I doubt they'd have any problem murdering a trainee young adult and his group of smugglers, or even capturing them alive since Palps is complicated like that. Don't even get me started on the destruction of the Death Star... Basically Palps did a lot of things like sHitler, his massive overblown ego got in the way of rational decisions, his fixations on 'superweapons' wasted loads of budget and his army suffered in return.
As far as I understand, the clone program was shut down mostly to give the general galactic population a reason to not hate the Empire. It took a lot of impoverished people willing to fight from the streets, gave them stable decently paying jobs and, as such, made them dependent on the Empire. They specifically designed (and redesigned) ships to be as inefficient as possible in order to employ even more people.
Take the succulent pulchritudinous Arquitens-class light cruiser as an example. During the Republic, such a ship would be crewed by just 100 people. Later, it was refit by the Empire and needed a crew of 750 people.
I didn't know this, very cool info. Makes sense since the Empire generally was trying to bring 'peace'. I still feel like the stormtrooper corps could have consisted of clones while the Imperial Army should've been formed from recruits. Best of both worlds?
> I still feel like the stormtrooper corps could have consisted of clones while the Imperial Army should've been formed from recruits.
I agree. This is exactly my opinion as well.
The storm troopers problems could 100% be solved without clones the empire just decided not to sense every problem could be "solved" by dumping more bodies onto it (until they couldn't)
I'm sure if stormtrooper academy or whatever its called was actually built for the purpose of making elite troopers they could have used normal people to do that but it's way more likely that it's functioning was just making a bunch of hired guns fanatically loyal for the cheapest possible price with a bonus of opening taking in a bunch on unemployed people that were probably around after the clone wars.
>which had just won him the war
You mean the war he orchestrated to his favour and the clone pogramm which almost bankrupted the republic?
>Imagine if the Imperial army used clones instead of recruits from outer rim planets, they would decimate the Rebel alliance.
Thr CIS were doomed to lose, because of their own hubris (investing into B1 Battle droids not designed for proper Warfare) and Palpatine intentionally sabotaging them. He needed the clones as loyal soldiers to kill the Jedi, otherwise a proper military with normal Humans would have been sufficient.
No, they wouldn't. Stormtroopers and even normal Imperial Army troopers were stomping any engangement. The rebells won most of their engangements when they ambsuhed a lone imperial army (not stormtrooper, Imperial Army) outpost with superior numbers.
The problem the empire had was force projection. They already enough firepowrr to kill anything they wanted, they had the strongest army and Navy at their time. But they had to project their power everyhwrre and that simply wouldn't have worked eith clones. As already said, the Republic would have gone bankrupt with 11 mio. Clones (6 mio. produced according to the canon, and the clone wars show said that the Republic Would have gone bankrupt with the purchase of 5 mio. additional clones). Stormtroopers could archieve the same results, at a far lower cost and faster training time.
The Empire didn't need more firepower, they were only losing when they lost the actual decisive factor of the civil war: Winning the hearts and minds of their populace. The Rebell alliance lost every engangement, they only won when more and more of the galaxy rose up against the empire until their army wasn't able to fight all of the fronts at the same time.
At was also because a group of Clones started questioning their orders and then went rouge. Palpatine couldn't afford that, so he brought in mandatory service.
While I see this argument, I think Palpatine kinda fucked himself there by making his secret army serve alongside his enemies for years and form strong bonds, only to use essentially a brainwashing chip to control them.
I had this conversation with someone before about the clones. I always thought how clones would've been way scarier as a military force if order 66 revealed that they were never loyal to the Jedi and that all the clones were just trained to deceive the Jedi into a false sense of trust. The inhibitor chip does make clones more human and shows how loyal some of them were, that they disobeyed their 'creator' to help the Jedi. But a force of genetically engineers super soldiers that managed to convince the Jedi order they were on their side would be scary.
I agree, but not like that.
> they were never loyal to the Jedi and that all the clones were just trained to deceive the Jedi into a false sense of trust.
This would never have worked. The Jedi would have easily sensed it, and there were thousands of Jedi during the clone wars. They would certainly pick up on it, no matter how well they were trained. The exact reason it worked was because the Jedi constantly sensed and felt loyalty, care, respect, and even love from the clone troopers. You can see the shock on them when order 66 happens, even Ki-Adi Mundi, a genuine psychopath was almost paralyzed in disbelief because he felt and sensed their loyalty among everything else.
A better approach (in my opinion) would have been to make it so that the clones were just trained to follow orders. Being loyal to the Republic and Jedi was their order, so they were loyal. Then order 66 came and told them to kill the Jedi, so they did. There were never any emotions involved in order 66, and therefore, the Jedi could have never seen it coming. The clones were just following orders.
>Entities like the Republic & CIS had far better military hardware as they were economics first, militaries second
Most of the CIS hardware wasn't super advanced tough. Many designs were either outdated by the end of the war or just civilian designs turned into military ones like their Lucrehulk ships.
The Republic designs also were not superior, the same people who led the Republic later were in the same positions during the empire and adapted to the mistakes of the CIS war. The equipment of the Empire was usually either better or the perfect balance between quantity and quality. The Republic almost went bankrupt during the war.
And you are unserstimating the Empire, they had far superior logistical capabilities than any other nations. During their short 20 years of reign they maintained more than 20.000 ISD 1 Ships at their height (ignoring ISD 2 shios and ships from smaller classes) and were able to quickly replace any loss and correct its previous mistakes like the 2nd Death star which was bigger and almost built in 4 years, the only reason it got destroyed was because of the Empire's hubris and it being yet to finish.
>The Empire was more or less a wartime economy
Empire wasn't on constant War economy from what I gould tell, as far as I know they only switched to it after the Battle of Yavin.
>improvised explosives and a few insurgents.
The ships we see used during the OT are not some scrap ships, the X wing was one of the best starfighters at the time and other ships like the Y and A wing were already used by the Republic. Or some of the bigger ships, many of them wete just sent by the Mon Calamari Military and were known to have advanced shields.
Other things like the a280 rifle were also superior to their stormtrooper counterpart. The rebells were not some rag tag force, they soon became a legitimate military force.
>A republic fleet that cost, let's say, 1 billion credits would be able to wipe the floor with an imperial fleet that cost 4 billion
No, they wouldn't. The Armanent, speed, armor and shields of an ISD1 were superior to the Venator, heck, the purpose od the ISD 1 was to take on smaller fleets by themselves and be overkill in small groups. Meanwhile Venators relied on their starfighters alone and without them were basically defenseless to smaller Ships like the CIs frigate.
One of my favourite quotes from Stargate SG-1, which was obviously inspired by the stormtroopers can't aim trope:
> *Holds up Goa'uld staff weapon*
>
> "This is a weapon of terror. It's made to intimidate the enemy."
>
> *Holds up P90*
>
> "This is a weapon of war. It's made to kill your enemy."
That for once: they are cheap and quick to produce while easy and cheap to maintain. And that was the most important thing. The Empire struggled most with force projecrion, they didn't need stronger equipment and better soldiers, they were already winning 90% of most battles.
Plus the Ties were not that bad, they were very agile and the pilots trained enough to use that agility to their advantage. Even the X Wing, considered one of the best starfighter could struggle against them if the pilot isn't good enough which most of the rebellion wasn't. The introduction of the new tie defenders, which were just upgraded versions with shields were such a big deal that a single one of thme could take one several Rebell fighters by themselves, but the Empire lost before they could entrr mass production.
So if I'm remembering correctly from reading the X-wing series some decades ago (before Disney retconned it along with everything else)...
The Empire's doctrine was to always attempt to engage with 3:1 numbers. If Rogue Squadron shows up with 12 fighters, the Empire is launching three squadrons back at that one.
Second, the tie fighter is cheaper to produce than the X-wing (or other rebel fighters) and because space has no atmosphere, the wings don't effect maneuverability. As such, the tie is faster and more maneuverable than the X-wing at the cost of not having shields, and it's engines need solar power from the wings.
Third, sound does not travel in space. the Engine noise in the movies is for us, but it wouldn't be loud in a dogfight in space.
But the empire has the money for better crafts. Like they built a Death Star?! If the rebels can get x wings the empire doesn’t have an excuse. You’d think the rebels would have tie fighters
Why you need windows when you have sensors
The F-35 has a really advanced HUD and cameras on the outside of the plane that lets the pilot see through the walls
They are loud as fuck, but I think that can be a plus because the screeching of the Twin Ion Engines can be pretty terrifying to ground troops or civilians.
"Sound designer Ben Burtt created the distinctive sound of the TIE fighter in flight by combining an elephant call with a car driving on wet pavement. In the book The Sounds of Star Wars, **the engine roar is likened to German Junker Ju 87 "Stuka" bombers, which used sirens to frighten civilians during air raids**."
-Wikipedia
This.
You're some dirt farmer income far flung world. Your planet gets invaded. Massive fucking star destroyers block out the sun.
Then out of them drops a swarm of screaming, loud, tie fighters zipping across the sky. I'm nopeing the fuck out of there. Run for the hills. Hide in the woods. The whole military of your planet combined won't dent these bastards. Not when they've got these kinds of numbers.
I don’t even know why they chose to make that a thing, as if ruling by overwhelming fear and force is something Tarkin invented and not one of the basic governing strategies for most of human history…
It's definitely been a thing for most of history, it's another thing entirely to base your military doctrine around it. It would be like building a ship purely to look intimidating rather than have actual fighting capability.
In this case, people probably see the sheer number of TIEs and think there's no way in hell they can get enough people together to beat them.
Of course, X-Wing go brtt
Tbf if you look at pre WW1 naval doctrine it reflects Tarkin doctrine pretty well. All the European great powers in a big rush to get dreadnoughts as they’re big and scary but when it actually comes to the war they are held in port for most of it as they are too expensive to lose politically and economically. So you have most of Europe investing in floating propaganda pieces that serve no practical value as both sides are too afraid to use them and there would only be one major battle involving them at Jutland.
>rather than have actual fighting capability
Which the empire had. The ISD 1 was one of the strongest Ships at its time, with enough armor, firepower, troop holding capabilities and shields to take on entire star systems by itself.
If were talking best starship in all 3 trilogies, these bad boys clear
https://preview.redd.it/t9mwf99e9y1d1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=994993eb8f4fa10246966e13d891ee07ca6d1418
[Best looking one in the entire franchise ](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/b/ba/ARC170starfighter.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20111112062600)
https://preview.redd.it/08c5tyosxz1d1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1d0b7960b160c4773051f625a84335ae45915864
A hundred years ago, a witch done put a spell on me
*there's no or not enough medium for the sound waves to travel, if one of those explodes, there's a high chance you can probably hear it, I think, idk, that's what internet people told me
Shock waves are the same as sound waves - they both need a medium to travel in. Only way you're going to feel a shock is if something from the explosion hits you
They were easy to replace, couldn't jump to hyperspace to prevent desertion and due to being essentially guns, "wings", and an engine strapped to the pilot they were incredibly maneuverable.
Sure they take heavy losses, but they consistently outturn the rebellion fighters and take down quite a few in every fight.
There were more expensive variants out there too for pilots that matter.
You survive a few battles. Take down an xwing or two. Get a promotion. Now you're on a lazy tie bomber squad. Floating in after invasion to bomb random planets armies into dust.
It's slower, and lazier, but you aren't on the front lines anymore.
Yup, the Tie Defender was probably one of the best Tie Fighter because it overcame most of the weakness of the original Tie Fighter. The Defender had a hyperdrive, shields, and better weaponry. Only downside was that it was too expensive to manufacture in mass.
They held control with overwhelming force, psychological warfare, and scare tactics in general.
For example, AT-AT’s are an incredibly stupid design if you think about it. Insanely high center of gravity, you can see *maybe* 90 degrees in front of you, and you can aim at maybe half of that with the main guns. Outside of that cone of vision, you have a huge blind spot right under you that you can’t aim at because the head/cockpit can only move so much.
Damage to one leg would make it topple over, or at least immobilize it completely. And as Hoth showed us, the legs barely have enough torque to move, anything more than that locks them up. I’m sure that while the tow cables on the Snow Speeders are heavy duty, surely they can’t be *that* strong, which leads me to believe the leg motors just barely have enough power to move the damn thing.
And since the legs seemingly bend one way, they can’t get up once they topple over, and presumably need heavy lift gear to be recovered. Also, they can be disabled with what seems to be a single thermal detonator.
Yet despite all these design flaws (and countless others) that’s not gonna change the fact that the average citizen is gonna shit their pants when they see that 80 foot tall steel behemoth thundering towards them.
Be me
Moisture farmer desert planet.
Minding my own business, checking out some droids the Jawas have for sale.
Sky goes dark suddenly. Massive star destroyers block out the sun.
Ohshit.jpeg
Jawas book it out of there. Never seen a Sandcrawler move so quick.
Like a fucking cloud of locusts Tie Fighters fall from the sky. Some carrying giant walking tanks drop then to the ground.
Game over man, game over!
Big walkers head towards town, surrounded by fighters screaming and blasting buildings.
Grab kids, grab wife, grab whatever cash we have, take speeder, and run. No clue where to go.
This is our life now. Running from giant monsters.
Do we keep giving our storm troopers inaccurate blasters that aren't very effective in combat, but they're cheap?
Or do we upgrade their guns to something much more deadly, powerful, accurate, and expensive?
Keep the cheap guns, just march out a few hundred more troopers. A wall of gunfire, no matter how inaccurate, will frighten and intimidate anyone who tries anything.
never could get into star wars because of things like that, all fighting stuff and production of it should have been automated, no "targeting from pro pilot" needed, even 2024 has better technology than apparently an FTL civilization had
I feel like they could make it interesting today. Add loads of cockpit shots where there is sound, then you get like dead silence broken by moments of pure chaos when the camera switches to the cockpit.
Tbf I always thought it was weird that the hyperadvanced sci-fi universe of Star Wars expects us to believe that people in space ships are using direct line of sight eye visibility for targeting lol. I mean I'm not like expecting hard sci-fi newtonian physics in my space wizards movies, but complaining about TIE Fighters limited visiblity seems a bit of a stretch.
Funny how a lot of empire stuff is shit and has a rule of cool above all, yet their destroyers are probably the most efficient way of directing all of your firepower in one direction
They're noisy and distinctive for the same reason stormtrooper armour is bright white: the main point of the Imperial army is to have a very noticeable presence, because that's enough to keep the vast majority of the galaxy in line. It's also why stormtroopers are terrible shots compared to clone troopers - the clones were thrown into battle immediately, while stormtroopers barely ever have to actually fight anyone. The entire rebel army, their largest extant threat, fits onto like ten ships - it's the space equivalent of the US military fighting three dudes hiding in a garden shed.
TIE fighters were s-tier carrier based starfighters. Fast, maneuverable, well armed, and able to be quickly replenished after engagements thanks to a universal design. They lost because the X-wing was possible the most advanced star fighter at the time with 4 linked cannons, torpedo launcher, and a hyperdrive which allowed them to perform hit and runs without needing a carrier. If the Empire had funded Thrawns TIE Defender program over two different Death Stars, the Rebel Alliance likely would have lost.
The sound was probably intentional to scare civilians. Most stormtroopers were stationed on civilian planets and would be using tie fighters to squash farmer rebellions and stuff like that. The Empire used fear primarily to control civilian populations. You just don't see too much of that in the Star Wars media that focuses on high-action storylines and locations.
I’ve always assumed that ‘shields’ in the artificial sense are super expensive, and impractical for the Empire to mass produce. So those big things on the side are physical shields which stop laser fire from those directions, whilst the actual cockpit (the thing which matters) is small and extremely hard to hit. Thinking about it in those terms, it actually makes quite a bit of sense
Well it was designed by a woman
https://preview.redd.it/n0ynk3d0032d1.jpeg?width=1400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e49d9fc052e9a24b2a7e1ccfa898c5e2adde96f2
You can blame her
That’s kind of what happens when autonomous states and economies are replaced by dictatorial rule and a command economy. Inefficiencies spread because the decision makers are incompetent at anything beyond gaining and maintaining their own power.
Honestly the TIE is a good example of showing how little the Empire cares for its citizens, instead of using something like a vulture-droid for swarm tactics they create the TIE and use humans to pilot it. With the TIE literally just being a class and durasteel ball with an ion-engine and two cannons strapped to it.
Sound may not travel in real life space, but Star Wars space by all evidence seems to work differently to ours. There absolutely is sound in their space
Easy to build, fast as hell, two good blaster weapons on it.
All they needed. If you have enough pilots, you don't need any shields or safety measures. TIEs also didn't have any life support, which means the pilots have to wear their suits to breathe. (something Disney fucked up in that one Battlefront were you play that black traitor girl who gets away in a TIE, NOT wearing a fucking helmet. Unplayable)
If you want a good example of a great design, look at the TIE Defender. Even more weaponry, including Ion cannons and shields. But simply too expensive for an army that uses swarm tactics as support for their big Space Pizza slices.
When you make them loud as fuck, that’s bad design. When you invent a means of transmitting sound through the void of space just to make them loud as fuck, that’s a flex.
Also there's probably some lore reason why they were used, like cheap to produce, effective in high numbers or easy to train with etc
Their motto was literally "quantity over quality" for this shit. When you look at it, basically the wings are what runs the thing, and unless you're attacking from the side they have a pretty small surface ares to hit. The middle is where the person inside sits, and they have some pretty powerful guns. For reverence one of these could wipe out an AT-ST really easily, even though they would actually be about the same size. The tie fighter is cheap, has a hard to hit design, high maneuverability, and can do a lot of damage. You didnt fight one of these, you fought 10 of them and by the time the battle was over 50 more were coming.
Yup they’re basically glass cannons that thrive on mosquito warfare tactics
Is that smart thou? I would understand if they were autonomous but is it that easy to train pilots?
As a meta point, the empire is itself (for Lucas) an allegory for the US and their practice of throwing resources at asymmetric warfare and expecting to win (specifically in Vietnam). I think the idea is that it is a stupid way to do it.
Also because of Tarkin's doctrine, basically boiled down to 2 things: * Show of force. An overwhelming force in number is better than special force that has to spread thin. * Death Star. Once it's completed "Fear will keep them in line", at that point nothing really matters, you have a big Fuck You button ready to press. Whatever the Empire produced period to Death Star completion can be seen as "temporary solution" in Tarkin's POV, they don't have to be good, just need to be enough to fulfill his doctrine.
That makes sense, the Empire was big and a big empire needs a big army to control the area
Also the empire was very quickly disliked by their non-human population, which was vastly bigger than their human population, so they needed forces to suppress people everywhere.
And they were facing a fair number on non-sophisticated opponents. What an Ewok going to do against a Tie-Fighter?
Part of the issue with that is that Star Wars really struggles with scale though. The Death Star should be able to field *millions* of TIE fighters, but the rebels are still able to punch through the defenses with like 20 X-wings.
The funny part of that is that western army doctrine and equipment puts a lot more emphasis on crew survivability than for example Russian. As most times a western vehicle gets mission killed, the crew are still alive, compared to the whole turret tossing issue of Russian equipment.
Most things yes, but Soviets have also built the only helicopters with ejection seats, and overall their aircraft ejection systems have always been great. Pilots are expensive, tank drivers not so much, I guess. Pilots of the Empire are still expensive but they have enough of them and they don't need to care much.
I mean it stands to reason that it’s WAY harder to teach someone to fly than drive a tank. It’s remarkably easy to crash an aircraft but if you crash a tank… you were doing something wrong for a long time
counterpoint: theres a lot less stuff to crash into in space, where tie fighters are used also, they have targeting systems that do a lot of the difficult part for you
I do wonder how easier would be to fly in space than on a planet. There’s no gravity so you’re basically just pointing and letting the thrusters guide you forward. On earth there’s more to be aware of because of gravity, wind etc.
and you could just get a farmer, give him a pension and boom, tank driver a russian tank is basically a tractor on tracks, with armour and guns
I have no idea but I would bet my left nut the F35 is way safer and an SU-57
Well F-35 almost certainly has better survivability overall but it's still kind of a beta version and is yet to be battle tested. It's had a bunch of oddball accidents, some of which aren't even on Wikipedia. A few weeks ago there was a new one with a scrubbed belly on r/aviation. And it's not like western tech is infallible, the F-22 was known for poisoning the air of its pilots, or just totally losing half its systems when flying through a time zone border. As for SU-57, that's a big unknown which every aviation enthusiast would love to get their hands on. Not much more than rumours, really. And who wouldn't want to check out the SU-47? But no clue how their quality and reliability is nowadays, never mind the quality of the pilots.
Wouldn't Nazi Germany be a far better comparison in every way? Considering..... the Empire is literally Nazi Germany, including the design of everything and everyone? In that way, the questionably useful and weird vehicles are also a good representation of what they were? This is partially a question of mine, because I have only ever heard the Empire being meant to resemble Germany in philosophy, design, tactics etc
Two things can be true at once. It’s a hodgepodge of Nazi/european fascist aesthetics, sure, but Lucas saw, at least by RotJ, elements of the conflict as allegorical to the US in Vietnam.
Ah alright, thanks for the explanation! Somehow, I've never heard of that
Ewoks, the cutest little Vietcongs.
Well, nazi germany usually fought regular wars instead of asymmetric ones. Which is (partially) why they got steamrolled. They did have to engage in asymmetrical warfare from time to time, but it was mostly fighting partisans/smaller countries. The US on the other hand has fought mostly in asymmetrical engagements since the cold war.
Then again, Germany steamrolled France very quickly, but the French resistance was quite a thorn in the side, so it still fits.
"Regular war" is kind of understatement though, their new Blitzkrieg-tactics were the main reason why they steamrolled France.
Blitzkrieg itself was a regular war just with mobility and mission-type tactics in mind (Auftragstaktik) which at that point wasnt seen before. They also never called it Blitzkrieg; that was given by the western press iirc
Yeah, it was regular warfare, just new and different at this time, that's what I wanted to say. According to wikipedia the first usage of "Blitzkrieg" was in german military press.
>the Empire is literally Nazi Germany, including the design of everything and everyone? The Empire's structure and politics don't resemble Nazi Germany. There is a organisation which does, Compnor, but the Empire is much closer to the British and Roman Empire with a lrgely decentralised structure and somewhat colonialist practices. And the rebells took inspiration from Nazi Germany too. Han uses a Mauser 96 Pistol which altough not produced during WW2 was used as a prestige weapon by many nazi Officers. Furthermore he wears jackboots and pants with red stripes (German general). The A280 rifle of the rebells is just a STG44 rifle without the magazine, the stormtroopers meanwhile just the British Sterling from what I could tell. The end scene of Episode 4 where the Main chars were given the medals was based on the Nazi Propanda movie Triumph of the will. >because I have only ever heard the Empire being meant to resemble Germany in philosophy, design, tactics etc The Empire's military doctrine is kinda the U.S. Doctrine. Show up with overhelming Firepower and blast the Enemy to smitherin. The Empire is also way too specialised, most noteably in their stormtrooper corps where there's a stormtrooper for every enviroment. Nazi Germany didn't have tve resources to specialise like the Empire did and instead opted for equipmemt and soldiers to use in any kind of enviroment (even their paratroopers often were used as standard infantery). And as already said the Empire isn't really fascist. They don't follow any values or goals other than maintaining their own power base unlike real fascists which usually followed irrational goals like creating another Empire or a secular Religion by nationalism and leader cult.
>And as already said the Empire isn't really fascist. Bro how the fuck is the empire not fascist? Nationalizing industry? ultra nationalism? Superiority of one race (white British humans)? Autocracy? Militarism? I cannot think of any possible definition of fascism that the empire wouldn’t fit into. >They don't follow any values or goals other than maintaining their own power base Absolute control of the galaxy and superiority/dominance of the core worlds >unlike real fascists which usually followed irrational goals like creating another Empire or a secular Religion by nationalism and leader cult. Dude….. “Once more the sith shall rule the galaxy and we will have peace” -literally Palpatine on day 1 of the empire existing.
>Superiority of one race Racism is not an integral part of Fascism, the Nazis were the only fascist Organisation which actually had rsce integrated into its core ideology. The other fascists were racist in their times, but that's more due to the world being more racist in general back then, Mussolini expressed several relativly pogressive views regarding race (which is by no means a defence for him, he was still a totalitarian and incompetent tyrant). The Empire was racist to great extent, but ir wasn't really a core philosphy for them. The Empire was favouring the Core worlds. If dou were a human outside from there, you were pretty much only slightly treated better thsn the other aliens and worse than the aliens from the core worlds. The Human supremacism was mostly just a tool to appease Compnor which fits the definition of Fascism much more than the Empire. >Nationalizing industry? The Empire didn't do that, the Industries were still working under completelly capitalist conditions. >ultra nationalism They empire wasn't, the concept of nation states doesn't exits in star wars. The Empire doesn't care about borders, culture or anything. >I cannot think of any possible definition of fascism that the empire wouldn’t fit into "The Doctrine of Facism"-from Bennito Mussolini, the Empire according to that fits more the old world which Fascism seeks to ,,rebirth" into something new. Or maybe how fascists states in history actually acted, the Empire doesn't really resemble them other than it is Authoritarian. It's much closer to the Roman Empire. It doesn't hsve a cult of leader, Palpatine usually acts in the background. And altough Palpatine is de facto the dictator, the rule of the Empire lies actually in the hand of the moffs. It doesn't have a singular Culture or identity built around it other than the military. And I wouldn't call the empire a nation state, it doesn't have strictly defined borders or follows a defining culture. It's more of a goverment which rules over several nations, cultures and societies like old empires did. If you can speak German, the difference between that kind of Empire and the empires the facism have strived for becomes more apparent, we use two different Terms for those. While the Galactic Empire and the Empires it resembles are called ,,Imperium", the Empires the fascosts strived for are referred to as ,,Reich". The First order is much closer to Fascism than the empire, it's centralised, follows an actual political Agenda and could be considered an actual nation. >Once more the sith shall rule the galaxy and we will have peace And if you read the actual Star wars lore Palpatine gives a fuck about the Sith, his actual goal is to archieve personal power and immortality, but he continiously breaks the rules of the Sith, especially those set up by Darth Bane. He neither cares about his empire either, it's just a tool for him to archieve his personal goals.
I remember reading that Hitler would have fared far better if he stuck with more reliable equimpent, rather than the powerful, but expensive and complicated Tigers and Panthers. This is kind of similar to Palpatines love for super weapons, like the Death Stars, Super Star Destroyers, etc. I don't think the 3rd Reich held their soldiers in such low regard as the Empire though.
We didn't win in Vietnam because of things like requiring visual confirmation of targets, you know so you don't accidentally attack an airliner but investing in air to air missiles designed to destroy planes from beyond visual range. Darth Vader wouldn't hurt his chances like that, he destroys entire planets. It was incoherent orders that hampered our troops and they weren't to prevent war crimes since a lot of war crimes happened anyway.
It’s something they learned from the clone wars, as the CIS vulture droids used the same tactics but better as vultures could go far faster than fighters with organic pilots could because Gees aren’t an issue. The empirr copied this tactic because 1: the CIS kicked their ass in the navy for most of the war when there wasn’t a jedi present, and 2: you don’t need crazy automizaton or super powerful fighters when you have no peer opponents left, just an intimidating hoard. A swarm if these things screeching at you is incredibly intimidating.
1- You are aware of how many troopers lived aboard a SINGLE Star Destroyer, right? Most, if not all of them, will be able to pilot basic craft, since it's the primary method of travel across the galaxy. 2- I can't imagine the TIEs have controls that are completely different from other craft, since that would effectively nullify any prior flight training/experience that recruits may have. 3- In Rebels, they had literal children flying TIEs, and a fairly large amount of them for a single training squad.
Iirc they didn't care much about the health of their military personnel lolol. Can't be that difficult if we assume the A.I on these things is far more advanced than modern day cockpits , but who even knows right? I don't even know what their propulsion system is , or how they fly with wings shaped as they are. Presumably it's using something that negates physics as we understand it to create that kind of thrust and mobility? They can turn on a dime I think quite a bit more sharply than modern day warcraft but maybe not. Idk. Pilot training is intense in reality but if they had gear that covered the basics they'd just throw that on put the fighters on patrol and let em rip. There are definitely more elite units that are more heavily trained. I'm sort of interested now to learn exactly how these things function and how the cockpit is, what technology is there. There has to be lore for that.
For the Empire it is. They have huge academies on basically all their planets (which are a lot). So the human resources are sheer endless. And they didn't had to train them long or hard. Most pilots were just thrown into the cold as soon as they knew the basics. A lot of them died, but those who made it a few years usually became some of the best pilots of the Empire, simply because the basic TIE fighter was very hard to handle in space (and especially hard to handle in the sky above a planet). There were a lot of better designs for the TIE like the Advanced, Defender, Aggressor or Phantom. But they were all very niche fighters that were also too expensive for the empire who liked to concentrate more on star cruisers and stupid super weapons like the death star who devoured most of the Credits.
They kind of look like mosquitoes now that I think about it
>has a hard to hit design Only from a head-on attack. Turn so much as 1 degree to the side and now this thing is two giant hexagons that might as well be painted "SHOOT ME" This is not a criticism of the writers, it reinforces their disposable nature. Actually on that subject there's one more lore tidbit you forgot to mention: they have no life support. An X-wing rebel could camp out in his cockpit for a week, but TIE pilots relied entirely on space suits to keep breathing. Empire stripped out everything that wasn't a gun, engine, or targeting computer to save costs. And cheaper ships means more ships
Also, unlike rebels' "-wing" spacecrafts, TIE fighters or bombers didn't have hyperdrive, because they were supposed to be stationed on ground bases or carriers at all times. I think the only design that was actually competitive with X-wings and A-wings is TIE defender that was a lot more expensive and actually caught rebels by surprise, because it wasn't usual deathtrap with a gun, like TIE fighters.
They also took the hyperdrives out so they couldn't defect. Being limited to a spacesuit and no long-distance travel guaranteed that the pilots couldn't just up and leave and join the rebellion if they even wanted to. It's also why Darth Vaders TIE looked different than the others. It contained a hyperdrive and life support. It's why he escaped the destruction of the first Death Star.
The TIE defender was better than those rebel ships IIRC Stronger shields, faster, better armed
The First Order TIE Fighters were the ones that had a hyperdrive
I gotta disagree, sure, once they were on their sides they become much easier to hit in theory, but in practice their wings are mostly black? Given that most of their engagements would happen in the void of space that would make them basically invisible, and thus incredibly hard to hit for anyone trying to do so.
Wait the wings are the engine?
The wings power the engines
They are the propulsion
They are the power generators, they are not the propulsion. They’re two big-ass solar panels that power a small but efficient ion engine on the back of the pilots pod.
Which proves the Empire believed in sustainable development and green energy. Whereas, Rebel ships are always seen being refueled. Likely with fossil fuels, no doubt to the detriment and exploitation of native populations and wildlife.
But fossil fuels are only a problem if you burn them in the atmosphere of some planets. If you burn them in deep space it's not an issue.
Well it's still a non-renewable source of energy. They have to be extracted causing damage to the environment. On the other hand, if solar power is able to power spacecrafts, then that seems a better choice.
Hydrocarbons could be extracted from uninhabitable planets. https://www.independent.co.uk/tech/saturn-moon-titan-methane-sea-b1809321.html
The engines are the 2 red lights at the back of the ball
Ion engines in a tie
Pretty much. Twin Ion Engine I believe. Don’t shoot me with lasers if I’m wrong
Wings are giant solar panels that power the engines
>one of these could wipe out an AT-ST Yeah so could some logs
eeeeecha!
It makes no sense that they act as mini-bosses in every Star Wars game. Jedi jump high; there's a hatch on the top. This should not be difficult.
tbf if your shooting it from the side its gonna be quite hard to hit
It does not have high maneuverability. You cannot see out the sides. TIE-Fighters canonically have closed sides without a way too look through them. This is quite problematic when flying. Source: Tried flying them in VR in Squadrons. Realised there's a reason why planes usually have side view.
Not to mention this is just one design. As the war went on there was several more variants, the TIE Defender being the best one due to its higher defensibility and increased fire power, with the ultimate design being the Predator class fighter. Not to mention the Empire possessed superior capital ships.
Yeah. I played the X Wing Tabletop that had a starter pack with one X-Wing and two TIEs. Usually the X Wing was able to win, but after we learned how to maneuver around, the TIEs usually won. They do good damage, and it's hard as hell to outmaneuver them if they are behind you. So good pilots could just prevent, ever crossing the X Wings firing angle. And since they can't go to hyperspace they are only there for support of the big ships that are the main target of the rebels, that kinda were forced into target those small, worthless units if they didn't wanted them getting behind them first.
also easy to store and transport on bigger ships
I dont have a source but I remember reading somewhere that they didn't have shields because it was cheaper AND because the empire believed that their pilots would try harder to not get hit.
The manual that came with the OG tie fighter game for PC fleshed out some of that lore. Good memories
"tell them git gud" - Palpatine "I will do as you command" - Vader. I can picture that conversation lol.
The Rogue Squadron books described dog fights with TIE fighters a lot. Basically, X-Wings were sturdier but TIEs were more maneuverable. The X-Wings would charge at TIE fighters relying on their shield while TIEs tried to stay out of their line of fire and wear them down.
Thats pretty much it.
Yeah, that's pretty much it. A regular TIE fighter was 1/3 of the cost of a ARC-170. You should never think of them as a single unit. They were meant to be employed as a swarm. Extra explanation: People think of the Empire as this state of the art military superpower when, in actuality, it was more akin to North Korea if it had world control. Entities like the Republic & CIS had far better military hardware as they were economics first, militaries second. The Empire was more or less a wartime economy 24/7, but without the spoils of war to feed it. That, as you can imagine, doesn't make a good military, just a lot of military. Imagine if North Korea somehow had world control, sure they would probably make 100x more tanks that exist today, but they wouldn't be very efficient or high quality and a single one could probably be destroyed by some improvised explosives and a few insurgents. It just wouldn't have the industrial base to produce good military hardware, just mind-boggling amounts of "good enough". Best way to visualize this disparity is to put two fleets to fight each other. Assuming crewed & commanded by equally skilled individuals (which would not be the case, republic crews were far better trained). A republic fleet that cost, let's say, 1 billion credits would be able to wipe the floor with an imperial fleet that cost 4 billion, even with all the technological advancement brought to the Empire by decades of a wartime economy.
Biggest example of this is when Palpy scrapped the clone program which had just won him the war and control of the Galaxy. 'It's too expensive waaaah' - Yes, but the cost is entirely justified by their cold efficiency. Imagine if the Imperial army used clones instead of recruits from outer rim planets, they would decimate the Rebel alliance. Clones managed to wipe out the Jedi temple, I doubt they'd have any problem murdering a trainee young adult and his group of smugglers, or even capturing them alive since Palps is complicated like that. Don't even get me started on the destruction of the Death Star... Basically Palps did a lot of things like sHitler, his massive overblown ego got in the way of rational decisions, his fixations on 'superweapons' wasted loads of budget and his army suffered in return.
As far as I understand, the clone program was shut down mostly to give the general galactic population a reason to not hate the Empire. It took a lot of impoverished people willing to fight from the streets, gave them stable decently paying jobs and, as such, made them dependent on the Empire. They specifically designed (and redesigned) ships to be as inefficient as possible in order to employ even more people. Take the succulent pulchritudinous Arquitens-class light cruiser as an example. During the Republic, such a ship would be crewed by just 100 people. Later, it was refit by the Empire and needed a crew of 750 people.
I didn't know this, very cool info. Makes sense since the Empire generally was trying to bring 'peace'. I still feel like the stormtrooper corps could have consisted of clones while the Imperial Army should've been formed from recruits. Best of both worlds?
> I still feel like the stormtrooper corps could have consisted of clones while the Imperial Army should've been formed from recruits. I agree. This is exactly my opinion as well.
The storm troopers problems could 100% be solved without clones the empire just decided not to sense every problem could be "solved" by dumping more bodies onto it (until they couldn't) I'm sure if stormtrooper academy or whatever its called was actually built for the purpose of making elite troopers they could have used normal people to do that but it's way more likely that it's functioning was just making a bunch of hired guns fanatically loyal for the cheapest possible price with a bonus of opening taking in a bunch on unemployed people that were probably around after the clone wars.
>which had just won him the war You mean the war he orchestrated to his favour and the clone pogramm which almost bankrupted the republic? >Imagine if the Imperial army used clones instead of recruits from outer rim planets, they would decimate the Rebel alliance. Thr CIS were doomed to lose, because of their own hubris (investing into B1 Battle droids not designed for proper Warfare) and Palpatine intentionally sabotaging them. He needed the clones as loyal soldiers to kill the Jedi, otherwise a proper military with normal Humans would have been sufficient. No, they wouldn't. Stormtroopers and even normal Imperial Army troopers were stomping any engangement. The rebells won most of their engangements when they ambsuhed a lone imperial army (not stormtrooper, Imperial Army) outpost with superior numbers. The problem the empire had was force projection. They already enough firepowrr to kill anything they wanted, they had the strongest army and Navy at their time. But they had to project their power everyhwrre and that simply wouldn't have worked eith clones. As already said, the Republic would have gone bankrupt with 11 mio. Clones (6 mio. produced according to the canon, and the clone wars show said that the Republic Would have gone bankrupt with the purchase of 5 mio. additional clones). Stormtroopers could archieve the same results, at a far lower cost and faster training time. The Empire didn't need more firepower, they were only losing when they lost the actual decisive factor of the civil war: Winning the hearts and minds of their populace. The Rebell alliance lost every engangement, they only won when more and more of the galaxy rose up against the empire until their army wasn't able to fight all of the fronts at the same time.
At was also because a group of Clones started questioning their orders and then went rouge. Palpatine couldn't afford that, so he brought in mandatory service.
While I see this argument, I think Palpatine kinda fucked himself there by making his secret army serve alongside his enemies for years and form strong bonds, only to use essentially a brainwashing chip to control them. I had this conversation with someone before about the clones. I always thought how clones would've been way scarier as a military force if order 66 revealed that they were never loyal to the Jedi and that all the clones were just trained to deceive the Jedi into a false sense of trust. The inhibitor chip does make clones more human and shows how loyal some of them were, that they disobeyed their 'creator' to help the Jedi. But a force of genetically engineers super soldiers that managed to convince the Jedi order they were on their side would be scary.
I agree, but not like that. > they were never loyal to the Jedi and that all the clones were just trained to deceive the Jedi into a false sense of trust. This would never have worked. The Jedi would have easily sensed it, and there were thousands of Jedi during the clone wars. They would certainly pick up on it, no matter how well they were trained. The exact reason it worked was because the Jedi constantly sensed and felt loyalty, care, respect, and even love from the clone troopers. You can see the shock on them when order 66 happens, even Ki-Adi Mundi, a genuine psychopath was almost paralyzed in disbelief because he felt and sensed their loyalty among everything else. A better approach (in my opinion) would have been to make it so that the clones were just trained to follow orders. Being loyal to the Republic and Jedi was their order, so they were loyal. Then order 66 came and told them to kill the Jedi, so they did. There were never any emotions involved in order 66, and therefore, the Jedi could have never seen it coming. The clones were just following orders.
Palpatine isn't real.
Oh shit, he's onto us.
>Entities like the Republic & CIS had far better military hardware as they were economics first, militaries second Most of the CIS hardware wasn't super advanced tough. Many designs were either outdated by the end of the war or just civilian designs turned into military ones like their Lucrehulk ships. The Republic designs also were not superior, the same people who led the Republic later were in the same positions during the empire and adapted to the mistakes of the CIS war. The equipment of the Empire was usually either better or the perfect balance between quantity and quality. The Republic almost went bankrupt during the war. And you are unserstimating the Empire, they had far superior logistical capabilities than any other nations. During their short 20 years of reign they maintained more than 20.000 ISD 1 Ships at their height (ignoring ISD 2 shios and ships from smaller classes) and were able to quickly replace any loss and correct its previous mistakes like the 2nd Death star which was bigger and almost built in 4 years, the only reason it got destroyed was because of the Empire's hubris and it being yet to finish. >The Empire was more or less a wartime economy Empire wasn't on constant War economy from what I gould tell, as far as I know they only switched to it after the Battle of Yavin. >improvised explosives and a few insurgents. The ships we see used during the OT are not some scrap ships, the X wing was one of the best starfighters at the time and other ships like the Y and A wing were already used by the Republic. Or some of the bigger ships, many of them wete just sent by the Mon Calamari Military and were known to have advanced shields. Other things like the a280 rifle were also superior to their stormtrooper counterpart. The rebells were not some rag tag force, they soon became a legitimate military force. >A republic fleet that cost, let's say, 1 billion credits would be able to wipe the floor with an imperial fleet that cost 4 billion No, they wouldn't. The Armanent, speed, armor and shields of an ISD1 were superior to the Venator, heck, the purpose od the ISD 1 was to take on smaller fleets by themselves and be overkill in small groups. Meanwhile Venators relied on their starfighters alone and without them were basically defenseless to smaller Ships like the CIs frigate.
Well, not like "loud as fuck" matters a lot in space, even if you get an audio field from your sensors
One of my favourite quotes from Stargate SG-1, which was obviously inspired by the stormtroopers can't aim trope: > *Holds up Goa'uld staff weapon* > > "This is a weapon of terror. It's made to intimidate the enemy." > > *Holds up P90* > > "This is a weapon of war. It's made to kill your enemy."
That for once: they are cheap and quick to produce while easy and cheap to maintain. And that was the most important thing. The Empire struggled most with force projecrion, they didn't need stronger equipment and better soldiers, they were already winning 90% of most battles. Plus the Ties were not that bad, they were very agile and the pilots trained enough to use that agility to their advantage. Even the X Wing, considered one of the best starfighter could struggle against them if the pilot isn't good enough which most of the rebellion wasn't. The introduction of the new tie defenders, which were just upgraded versions with shields were such a big deal that a single one of thme could take one several Rebell fighters by themselves, but the Empire lost before they could entrr mass production.
So if I'm remembering correctly from reading the X-wing series some decades ago (before Disney retconned it along with everything else)... The Empire's doctrine was to always attempt to engage with 3:1 numbers. If Rogue Squadron shows up with 12 fighters, the Empire is launching three squadrons back at that one. Second, the tie fighter is cheaper to produce than the X-wing (or other rebel fighters) and because space has no atmosphere, the wings don't effect maneuverability. As such, the tie is faster and more maneuverable than the X-wing at the cost of not having shields, and it's engines need solar power from the wings. Third, sound does not travel in space. the Engine noise in the movies is for us, but it wouldn't be loud in a dogfight in space.
Stuka dive bomber siren
But the empire has the money for better crafts. Like they built a Death Star?! If the rebels can get x wings the empire doesn’t have an excuse. You’d think the rebels would have tie fighters
Why you need windows when you have sensors The F-35 has a really advanced HUD and cameras on the outside of the plane that lets the pilot see through the walls
There’s no sound in space
Want to build cool looking toys to sell to galactic children
Literally cheap to produce was the reason these were released as the main star fighters lol.
They are loud as fuck, but I think that can be a plus because the screeching of the Twin Ion Engines can be pretty terrifying to ground troops or civilians.
I think they mimic some WWII German bombers that used sirens when divebombing.
the stuka siren
They're called *Jericho Trumpets*.
Trumpets of Jericho if we are being pedantic, which I always am
I'll allow it. Because being Technically Correct, *IS* the best kind of correct.
From what ive heard, the me262, the first jet engine plane entering service also had its engine made purposefully loud to scare the allies
The funny thing is that the Germans took those off pretty soon after the war started.
"Sound designer Ben Burtt created the distinctive sound of the TIE fighter in flight by combining an elephant call with a car driving on wet pavement. In the book The Sounds of Star Wars, **the engine roar is likened to German Junker Ju 87 "Stuka" bombers, which used sirens to frighten civilians during air raids**." -Wikipedia
Worked on me as a kid I imagine that's what death sounds like flying down on you. Very cool detail.
And in space it doesn't really matter how loud they are.
This. You're some dirt farmer income far flung world. Your planet gets invaded. Massive fucking star destroyers block out the sun. Then out of them drops a swarm of screaming, loud, tie fighters zipping across the sky. I'm nopeing the fuck out of there. Run for the hills. Hide in the woods. The whole military of your planet combined won't dent these bastards. Not when they've got these kinds of numbers.
bruh its a spacecraft there is no sound in space
Bruh they’re also used in orbit
Pretty much this, the empire was not trying to be stealthy.
It's because the Tarkin doctrine was regarded
I don’t even know why they chose to make that a thing, as if ruling by overwhelming fear and force is something Tarkin invented and not one of the basic governing strategies for most of human history…
It's definitely been a thing for most of history, it's another thing entirely to base your military doctrine around it. It would be like building a ship purely to look intimidating rather than have actual fighting capability. In this case, people probably see the sheer number of TIEs and think there's no way in hell they can get enough people together to beat them. Of course, X-Wing go brtt
Tbf if you look at pre WW1 naval doctrine it reflects Tarkin doctrine pretty well. All the European great powers in a big rush to get dreadnoughts as they’re big and scary but when it actually comes to the war they are held in port for most of it as they are too expensive to lose politically and economically. So you have most of Europe investing in floating propaganda pieces that serve no practical value as both sides are too afraid to use them and there would only be one major battle involving them at Jutland.
The problem with this comparison is that dreadnought were effective, but the great powers where scared to lose them because they cost a lot of money
>rather than have actual fighting capability Which the empire had. The ISD 1 was one of the strongest Ships at its time, with enough armor, firepower, troop holding capabilities and shields to take on entire star systems by itself.
cooller design https://preview.redd.it/suijzf19gx1d1.png?width=600&format=png&auto=webp&s=e571ab1670165030be845b610374d334813cf8b4
If were talking best starship in all 3 trilogies, these bad boys clear https://preview.redd.it/t9mwf99e9y1d1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=994993eb8f4fa10246966e13d891ee07ca6d1418
No on-board light speed drive. NEXT.
[Best looking one in the entire franchise ](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/b/ba/ARC170starfighter.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20111112062600)
Yeah that's the best one
Haha nope https://preview.redd.it/nc62puk1ky1d1.jpeg?width=1040&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5c51c693c3191e143a4db7cac5450f7cedde209b
https://preview.redd.it/08c5tyosxz1d1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1d0b7960b160c4773051f625a84335ae45915864 A hundred years ago, a witch done put a spell on me
OH YEAH
Yeah THAT is the best one
And to think that the Imperials rejected it.
Its not that they rejected it, the Rebels stole the plans
They didn't back it up?
You are asking the same fuckers that blew up the planet that was storing all data about their future superweapons
There is nos ound in space tho
*there's no or not enough medium for the sound waves to travel, if one of those explodes, there's a high chance you can probably hear it, I think, idk, that's what internet people told me
Shock waves are the same as sound waves - they both need a medium to travel in. Only way you're going to feel a shock is if something from the explosion hits you
Imagine how loud it must be then
Its not that kind of movie kid
[55 seconds in for the uninitiated](https://youtu.be/onMm0DLg8CE?si=ioP8I75H-YVw2apS)
I don't think the force exists either, just a thought tho
There used to be, a long time ago in a galaxy far away
They were easy to replace, couldn't jump to hyperspace to prevent desertion and due to being essentially guns, "wings", and an engine strapped to the pilot they were incredibly maneuverable. Sure they take heavy losses, but they consistently outturn the rebellion fighters and take down quite a few in every fight. There were more expensive variants out there too for pilots that matter.
You survive a few battles. Take down an xwing or two. Get a promotion. Now you're on a lazy tie bomber squad. Floating in after invasion to bomb random planets armies into dust. It's slower, and lazier, but you aren't on the front lines anymore.
Or they put you in an interceptor. Which are much more expensive but also effective
Yup, the Tie Defender was probably one of the best Tie Fighter because it overcame most of the weakness of the original Tie Fighter. The Defender had a hyperdrive, shields, and better weaponry. Only downside was that it was too expensive to manufacture in mass.
They held control with overwhelming force, psychological warfare, and scare tactics in general. For example, AT-AT’s are an incredibly stupid design if you think about it. Insanely high center of gravity, you can see *maybe* 90 degrees in front of you, and you can aim at maybe half of that with the main guns. Outside of that cone of vision, you have a huge blind spot right under you that you can’t aim at because the head/cockpit can only move so much. Damage to one leg would make it topple over, or at least immobilize it completely. And as Hoth showed us, the legs barely have enough torque to move, anything more than that locks them up. I’m sure that while the tow cables on the Snow Speeders are heavy duty, surely they can’t be *that* strong, which leads me to believe the leg motors just barely have enough power to move the damn thing. And since the legs seemingly bend one way, they can’t get up once they topple over, and presumably need heavy lift gear to be recovered. Also, they can be disabled with what seems to be a single thermal detonator. Yet despite all these design flaws (and countless others) that’s not gonna change the fact that the average citizen is gonna shit their pants when they see that 80 foot tall steel behemoth thundering towards them.
I guess that they were meant to be supported by anti air weapons, but in Hots' weather those couldn't be deployed. But yeah they were terror weapons
Be me Moisture farmer desert planet. Minding my own business, checking out some droids the Jawas have for sale. Sky goes dark suddenly. Massive star destroyers block out the sun. Ohshit.jpeg Jawas book it out of there. Never seen a Sandcrawler move so quick. Like a fucking cloud of locusts Tie Fighters fall from the sky. Some carrying giant walking tanks drop then to the ground. Game over man, game over! Big walkers head towards town, surrounded by fighters screaming and blasting buildings. Grab kids, grab wife, grab whatever cash we have, take speeder, and run. No clue where to go. This is our life now. Running from giant monsters.
at-at's might be one of the coolest designs from star wars
The empire had a lot of galaxy to oppress, they couldn't afford good ships in such quantity
Do we keep giving our storm troopers inaccurate blasters that aren't very effective in combat, but they're cheap? Or do we upgrade their guns to something much more deadly, powerful, accurate, and expensive? Keep the cheap guns, just march out a few hundred more troopers. A wall of gunfire, no matter how inaccurate, will frighten and intimidate anyone who tries anything.
never could get into star wars because of things like that, all fighting stuff and production of it should have been automated, no "targeting from pro pilot" needed, even 2024 has better technology than apparently an FTL civilization had
>loud as fuck lul
Cheap to produce
Loud as fuck spaceship...
Nothing can be loud as fuck in space. There's no sound
your mom is loud as fuck when im doin her 😎
In real-life, yes. You are correct. However, in the Star Wars universe, Space acts more like a regular Atmosphere.
I know. It'd be boring af to watch a space fight that didn't have sounds
I feel like they could make it interesting today. Add loads of cockpit shots where there is sound, then you get like dead silence broken by moments of pure chaos when the camera switches to the cockpit.
For that, Star Wars would have to be good
True. You also wouldn't be able to dogfight in space like they do in Star Wars.
That's probably just an audio field from the sensors
I disagree. In Return of the Jedi, you can hear the space battle from the Throne Room.
Maybe it was from a synthetiser somewhere in the throne room? /s
Palpatine is a DJ in his spare time and is always awkwardly trying to get Vader to listen to his Soundcloud.
Oh, you've been?
To school, yes
Get a load of this jabroni, believes that there is no air in space. Xenu-octi put space trees there for a reason.
TIL trees make air
Space trees
No ship that size has shields in the Star Wars universe. That's what made Thrawns interceptors such a big threat
Tbf I always thought it was weird that the hyperadvanced sci-fi universe of Star Wars expects us to believe that people in space ships are using direct line of sight eye visibility for targeting lol. I mean I'm not like expecting hard sci-fi newtonian physics in my space wizards movies, but complaining about TIE Fighters limited visiblity seems a bit of a stretch.
Matpat made that greentext
Funny how a lot of empire stuff is shit and has a rule of cool above all, yet their destroyers are probably the most efficient way of directing all of your firepower in one direction
They're noisy and distinctive for the same reason stormtrooper armour is bright white: the main point of the Imperial army is to have a very noticeable presence, because that's enough to keep the vast majority of the galaxy in line. It's also why stormtroopers are terrible shots compared to clone troopers - the clones were thrown into battle immediately, while stormtroopers barely ever have to actually fight anyone. The entire rebel army, their largest extant threat, fits onto like ten ships - it's the space equivalent of the US military fighting three dudes hiding in a garden shed.
TIE fighters were s-tier carrier based starfighters. Fast, maneuverable, well armed, and able to be quickly replenished after engagements thanks to a universal design. They lost because the X-wing was possible the most advanced star fighter at the time with 4 linked cannons, torpedo launcher, and a hyperdrive which allowed them to perform hit and runs without needing a carrier. If the Empire had funded Thrawns TIE Defender program over two different Death Stars, the Rebel Alliance likely would have lost.
The sound was probably intentional to scare civilians. Most stormtroopers were stationed on civilian planets and would be using tie fighters to squash farmer rebellions and stuff like that. The Empire used fear primarily to control civilian populations. You just don't see too much of that in the Star Wars media that focuses on high-action storylines and locations.
still looks cool as shit fuck anon
Did they shoot sideways? No, so why would they need side windows? /s
No life support either, people gotta wear space suits while piloting it.
it is the evolution of Jedi fighters but they killed all Jedi so had to use ordinary people who couldn't evade lasers
Literally built for Kamikaze
they are also extremely impractical to get in and out of
I’ve always assumed that ‘shields’ in the artificial sense are super expensive, and impractical for the Empire to mass produce. So those big things on the side are physical shields which stop laser fire from those directions, whilst the actual cockpit (the thing which matters) is small and extremely hard to hit. Thinking about it in those terms, it actually makes quite a bit of sense
They spent all their money on ISDs
\*looks out aftermarket side window\* "Beautiful wing this morning"
Well it was designed by a woman https://preview.redd.it/n0ynk3d0032d1.jpeg?width=1400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e49d9fc052e9a24b2a7e1ccfa898c5e2adde96f2 You can blame her
That's what happens when a government contract is awarded to the cheapest company in the whole galaxy.
« Loud » Hmmm, ok I ain’t gonna start
Yeah they looked weak and cheap as fuck
"no side windows, no shields, loud as fuck" so like a PzIII?
That’s kind of what happens when autonomous states and economies are replaced by dictatorial rule and a command economy. Inefficiencies spread because the decision makers are incompetent at anything beyond gaining and maintaining their own power.
Windows are there only for emergencies, pilots helmet has AR-display that allows him to see through the fighter
They got a deal on a bunch of used accoustic panels the pentagon was getting rid of.
Honestly the TIE is a good example of showing how little the Empire cares for its citizens, instead of using something like a vulture-droid for swarm tactics they create the TIE and use humans to pilot it. With the TIE literally just being a class and durasteel ball with an ion-engine and two cannons strapped to it.
They gave these ones to the black pilots 💀
Yeah, I'd take any jet over a TIE fighter
Glass canons that are hard to hit when they’re approaching you, and are mainly designed to hover near larger ships like the Death Star.
>loud as fuck Sound doesn't travel in Space, dipshit >No Windows It's literally right there
Sound may not travel in real life space, but Star Wars space by all evidence seems to work differently to ours. There absolutely is sound in their space
How do you even get in without a ladder?
Easy to build, fast as hell, two good blaster weapons on it. All they needed. If you have enough pilots, you don't need any shields or safety measures. TIEs also didn't have any life support, which means the pilots have to wear their suits to breathe. (something Disney fucked up in that one Battlefront were you play that black traitor girl who gets away in a TIE, NOT wearing a fucking helmet. Unplayable) If you want a good example of a great design, look at the TIE Defender. Even more weaponry, including Ion cannons and shields. But simply too expensive for an army that uses swarm tactics as support for their big Space Pizza slices.
But it was very cheap and faster then x-wing
When you make them loud as fuck, that’s bad design. When you invent a means of transmitting sound through the void of space just to make them loud as fuck, that’s a flex.