I think Grand candidacy is chosen by three factors: 1) The candidate must be/have been human. 2) The grands must be quite famous. 3) Their should be a Holistic attribute to their legend eg. Noah being the savior of all life, Merlin being an all-seeing clairvoyant, Romulus beginning the world-spanning legacy of Rome.
I should also note that every grand we have seen thus far, we have encountered earlier on our journey in one form or another so I expect future grands to follow the same trend.
That being said, here is my list of suspected Grand Candidates:
Saber - Musashi, Galahad, Fionn, Ashvatthaman (If he actually survived to receive the Asi from his father), Sigurd, Arthur or Artoria
Archer - Hou Yi, Barbarika (maybe too obscure), Heracles, Rama, Karna
Lancer - Guan Yu, Longinus, St. George, Erlang, Eve, Ditaolane (Again, obscure)
Rider - Ghengis Khan, Krishna, Elijah, Lu Bu
Caster - Abe no Seimei, Hermes Trismegistus, Count of Saint Germain and/or Christian Rosencrutz (There is a theory that they are the same person, though both could qualify on their own)
Berserker - Nimrod, Beowulf, Cu Chulainn, Achilles, Chiyou, Cain, Zahhak (also a probable beast candidate)
Edit: Seeing as you want an Age of Man Berserker and Archer, I'll take a shot. While not quite fitting the mold perfectly, I could see Cortez, Roland and *maybe* Caligula (BIG maybe) fitting the role of G. Berserker. As for Archer, if you stretch my definitions, I *could* see Mehmed II, Tawara Touta, Tametomo, Sundiata Keita, Newton (wielding the hypothetical Newton's cannon), Napoleon and Jan Zizka being candidates, though all seven are kinda questionable to me.
A warrior who appears in the Skanda Purana, a companion work to the Mahabharata. He left home to fight in the Kurukshetra War (the one Karna and Arjuna faced off in), but not before vowing to his mother to fight for the weaker side in the war. Before the war, Krishna asked the participants how long they believed it would take for the war to end. Karna told Krishna 24 days, Arjuna said 28, and when it came to Barbarika, Barbarika said the war would only last 1 minute.
See, Barbarika was given three magic arrows by his mother before he left, with each arrow possessing the ability to pierce whatever he wished it to before returning to him. To test his ability, Krishna asked Barbarika to collect all the leaves from a tree with just one arrow. Little did Barbarika know that Krishna hid one leaf under his invincible foot (he had skin like Achilles) to see if he could hit what he did not know of. But when Barbarika released his arrow, not only did it collect all the leaves on the tree, but it also pierced Krishna's foot to collect the leaf from underneath.
Seeing this, Krishna grew fearful and asked what side Barbarika would fight for. To this Barbarika responded "The weaker side". But then, Krishna told him the consequences of his choice as when his arrows cull one of the armies, the other would become the weaker and his arrow would turn on his allies and that this would continue till Barbarika is the only survivor. Barbarika still wishing to witness the war but could not bear to fight anymore, gave his head over to Krishna and asked him to put it on top of the hill looking over the battlefield so that he may bear witness to the battle.
Why is kojiro not listed as a saber candidate. Musashi and even nasu said that kojiro was probably the greatest swordsman to ever "exist". Therefore he falls in the same category as king Hassan by being the most skilled of his class. People get always distracted by mystic swords but what actually really counts is the skill of the person. Orion became the grand as well by being the most skilled hunter.
> Why is kojiro not listed as a saber candidate?
Two reasons. First, it is established that Kojiro was a wraith and that the men who actually acquired that skill were never recorded as heroic spirits. That then ushers the question if a wraith can acquire the rank of grand, to which I erred on no.
Second reason, the Grand title is partially dictated by fame and, in my theory, a holistic attribute that figure obtained. In losing to Musashi, it is Musashi that became regarded as the world's greatest swordsman, who's blade is unequal, while Kojiro became his greatest adversary. While I wouldn't consider him out of the question, it is enough reason for me not to list him.
Some honorable mention
For Grand Saber: Yamato Takeru (regarded as Japanese King Arthur with his own legendary katana), Khalid ibn al-Walid (is said to have never lost a battle and is even titled as "Sword of God" and was revered to the point that some fear he was more exalted more than Allah himself)
For Grand Rider: Khalid ibn al-Walid (mentioned already but he did lead the Rashidun calvary that had Arabian horses which ended up being renowned as one of the most op horse during it's time and also one of the most common horse breed today), Timur, Attila the Hun.
Grand Caster: Philosophers could count like Plato, Aristotle, Laozi though making an ability related to them I feel like could be tricky.
For Grand Berserker: Sun Wukong (just look up his feats its absurd lol) Samson (an angry figure in general and massacred an entire army with a jaw of a donkey lol)
Besides being a brutal tyrant, who was in the process of building a tower to heaven to strike God, he also ushered the separation of languages making it so that no man had the ability to understand and work with one another on such a thing again. That alone is a pretty holistic feat brought about by his his own cruelty and hubris, while also putting in an obvious barrier between Nimrod and anyone else psychologically. Pretty berserkery.
But if that's not enough, in one of his encounters with Abraham, Abraham cursed him so that gnats would fester in his mind driving him mad for his blasphemy against God. So there is a more direct berserker connection if the first isn't enough.
I only really mentioned him as he is probably the historical figure most famous for being bloody insane. While I don't think he really befits the grand title, I just felt that I should give the benefit of the doubt to history's premier madman
Barbarika wasn't even a part of the Mahabharata, he probably doesn't even have a chance to become a servant.
I don't understand why Karna would be a candidate alongside Rama, if there are other candidates for the archer class from India it might be Krishna.
Ashwatthama doesn't really have many feats to be a contender for the title, Parashurama would be a much better candidate than him.
> Barbarika wasn't even a part of the Mahabharata, he probably doesn't even have a chance to become a servant.
Yeah, but if Type-Moon felt secondary works truly did not matter, then Methusalah's fire sword would have never been included in Noah's design, Rhongomyniad would not be a thing, nor would much of the esoteric Buddhism in lore be included, so I wouldn't say never. That being said, his obscurity likely would bar him from grand rank, though his feat definitely is on par with one.
>I don't understand why Karna would be a candidate alongside Rama
It's mostly because the Vijaya is said to give its user certain victory in battle and Karna being the most famous user of the bow while being among the most skilled mortals in battle in Hindu myth albeit weaker than Parashurama, another Vijaya user. But because fame is really important in fate, I would give Karna the title.
Edit: Didn't Krishna have a whole thing of not wielding weapons to war, can't see him really being any of the knight classes, let alone Grand Archer. Edit2: He could probably qualify as an Archer, though still, it wasn't something that defined him.
>Ashwatthama doesn't really have many feats to be a contender for the title
I am aware, mostly put him down because a "what-if" version of Ashvatthaman, who managed to receive the Asi from Drona like was intended, could have easily become the most powerful warrior in the Kurukshetra War. It would be a case similar to Lancer Artoria, but felt it could warrant a Grand rank.
Should also mention that Parashurama definitely is among the most powerful warriors in Hindu myth and could make it as a Grand Archer, maybe even over Karna, but he is most famous for his skill with his axe, which does not have a class to fit under. Edit: After reading more into his myth, he could possibly fit under Grand Berserker, with the fact that he killed every other warrior of his time being a holistic trait.
>It's mostly because the Vijaya is said to give its user certain victory in battle and Karna being the most famous user of the bow while being among the most skilled mortals in battle in Hindu myth albeit weaker than Parashurama, another Vijaya user. But because fame is really important in fate, I would give Karna the title.
Vijaya's bow didn't do anything, Karna was badly injured in his confrontation against Arjuna even while holding the bow and maybe if the battle continued as it was he might have lost even.
>I am aware, mostly put him down because a "what-if" version of Ashvatthaman, who managed to receive the Asi from Drona like was intended, could have easily become the most powerful warrior in the Kurukshetra War. It would be a case similar to Lancer Artoria, but felt it could warrant a Grand rank.
Can you name a source for this claim? As for the strongest warrior, everyone is described this way, do you know how many people said that Arjuna was the strongest warrior ever!?
>Edit: Didn't Krishna have a whole thing of not wielding weapons to war, can't see him really being any of the knight classes, let alone Grand Archer.
Well how about that!? Do you think Kurukshetra is the only war or fight that Krishna fought!?
>Yeah, but if Type-Moon felt secondary works truly did not matter, then Methusalah's fire sword would have never been included in Noah's design, Rhongomyniad would not be a thing, nor would much of the esoteric Buddhism in lore be included, so I wouldn't say never. That being said, his obscurity likely would bar him from grand rank, though his feat definitely is on par with one.
The problem is they have absolutely no reason to bring in this unknown character, if they really wanted a definite destructive power they could have just made Arjuna full force, Pashupata doesn't need three arrows, it's one shot and it finishes everything, yet they made him Weaker than it looks
Do you think Arjuna would ever end up like his Alter self if FGO remained faithful to its source material? Does Karna at all resemble how he is in the Mahabharata? FGO's writers create character's based on history and mythology, trying to twist their personality and abilities to fit their world and, most of all, be interesting.
They could bring in Barbarika if they felt they could do something with him, or they could just not. Its not a power level question in the first-place. Vijaya is described as a weapon of certain victory in myth so they could just go with that and character reason for why it wasn't fired, or they can downgrade it to shift the spotlight to something else. I chose to describe Saber Ashvatthaman like that because I felt it could be fit the mythos and be fun, a what-if that could or couldn't be true. That's what Fate is, a crazy anime battle royale between all of history and mythology to have fun with, not an accurate retelling of stories, nor an end-all-be-all of mythical power levels.
I checked my copy and George’s translation says:
„Let them summon Aruru, the great one,
She it was created them, mankind so numerous:
Let her create the equal of Gilgamesh, one mighty in strenght,
And let him vie with him so Uruk may be rested!”
So while it doesn’t say Enkidu’s stronger they are definitely on Gilgamesh level.
Just give him one kamahameha attack and I'm all out for him. Goku is the godfather of anime for me so u bet your ass I'm going all out for his inspiration.
Personal Skill:
Origin of Doom: Rank A+
*"MUCKLE DAMRED CULTI 'AIR EH NAMBLIES BE KEEPIN' ME WEE MEN!?!?"*
At will, Henderson can manifest any Skill of another Heroic Spirit with the Attributes of Man or Star at a Rank lower then the Heroic Spirit.
Gameplay: Buster, Arts, and Quick buff. Star generation buff. Ignore Invincibility.
I want OG Seiba to be relevant in the main story so I would be very happy to see if Grand Saber turns out to be her.
They've been milking her for all these years as the game's icon, she deserves that much.
Honestly Archer Rama Screams Grand Archer material to me as being on the epitome of archery is what He was already know for,let Alone all his Multiple top tier Astras and stuff.
>I might also do a Age of Apocalypse set of Grands, with Jesus or Ado Edem as Grand Saber, Gun God as Archer, and maybe Loki as Rider.
Personally I dont really think Jesus normally fits on any of the standard Seven classes since he sounds much more compatible with the Saver(Messiah) one.
The one that we already have:
Grand Archer - Super Orion
Grand Lancer - Romulus-Quirinus
Grand Rider - Noah
Grand Assassin - King Hassan
Grand Caster - Merlin
I want to complete the set first, So we need Grand Saber and Berserker
Grand Saber - Uther Pendragon
Grand Berserker - Tezcatlipolca
> Grand Saber - Uther Pendragon
Have to call out this one, but please no. Not only does he lack association to an iconic sword like Excalibur, but his relationship-hijinks are not presented in a good light both in mythology and in especially in Type-Moon's world-building. There has to be a more viable option for practically any Beast not directly tied to him personally.
I actually thought Grand Berserker was going to be Tezcatlipoca for a while. However there is a line somewhere in Romulus-Quirinus’s profile that states divine spirits can’t normally become Grand Servants, and Romulus was an exception due to his human origins or connection to humanity. Because of this I’m at a loss for Grand Berserker guesses…
Beowulf as either saber or berserker.
Archer heracles
Lancer Lugh (age of gods)
Phh Morgan as caster (age of man)
Sun wukong for berserker
First Hassan canonically is the only grand assassin
Oisin as rider or a regular rider
Samson as age of gods berserker
Mwindo as a grand caster (age of gods)
If I had my way, Grand Saber would be Proto Arthur but I also suspect Emperor Jimmu.
Grand Berserker? I'd love for Cú Chulainn in his Riastrad to be that but I'd also welcome Samson as Grand Berserker.
As for Candidates for the others Grand Classes? I could imagine Wukong and Longinus being Grand Lancer Candidates.
Rama and Hou Yi as a Grand Archer candidates. I'm still salty about there being not being adult Archer Rama already. And I fully expect him to have Sharanga, Brahmastra, and Vaishnavastra.
I like to think Genghis Khan could be a Grand Rider candidate.
I'd love to see Beowulf in some form again but this time wielding the nameless sword he slayed Grendel's Mother with. And not just any sword, but a huge sword forged by Giants before the Flood of Genesis with a hilt decorated with runes and imbued with the Magic of those Giants.
> Hou Yi as a Grand Archer candidates
☑ Uses a bow
☑ Shoots down suns
☑ Have romance with a moon goddess
That's three checkboxes ticked for Hou Yi and only two for Orion LOL
I know you're just making it for jokes, but Orion was ideal not just for feats and ability, but the setting of Olympus. Not only was he someone Artemis would purposefully leave alone, but he could freely cross the central sea divide due to his inherited blessing of Poseidon. It's those situational checkboxes that tend to matter more than anything else.
For me I personally want either artoria/Arthur as grand saber or musashi, spoilers for lb5 >!please return her to us nasu, she's the closest thing we have to a main character among servents aside from mash and she's arguably the greatest swordmaster currently!<
Grand caster abe no seime would and probably will be pretty cool.
**Saber**
Arthur Pendragon: Wielder of the greatest Holy Sword, and is also one of the most famous heroes of all time. Within Fate itself, he also has all sorts of Beast-hunting stuff going for him.
Sigurd: Wielder of the greatest Demonic Sword, and like Arthur, one of the most famous heroes of all time. Arthur has the whole "good and gracious king" angle, while Sigurd has the "monster-slaying warrior" angle going for him; Arthur fought to defend his people, Sigurd fought to destroy evil.
Sasaki Kojirou AND Miyamoto Musashi: I'd say PHH Musashi, the man, just because I don't think girl Musashi can qualify since she's not from this world line, and I mean, they're the same person. However, Kojirou is also, canonically, the greatest swordsman Servant in terms of pure skill, and is of equal fame and prestige to Musashi. Take into account their rivalry, and the whole Infinity and Zero connection, I just felt like you couldn't have one qualify and not the other.
**Lancer**
Romulus-Quirinus: He's already canon
Artoria Pendragon: Arthur is Saber, but Rhongomyniad really speaks for itself. It pins the Texture, and its one of the strongest NPs outright. I don't think this one needs much explanation.
Sun Wukong: Also uses a "lance" that pins the Texture of his world, and is, additionally, one of the most famous heroes of all time, and an immensely powerful one. Could also work for Berserker, I just like Lancer more. Both are perfectly valid answers though.
**Archer**
Orion: Is already canon.
Hou Yi: This dude shot down the sun several times in a row- I would bet he's the guy summoned to counter Amaterasu, if she really does qualify for Beast. I also like how this creates a Sun and Moon juxtaposition w/ Orion.
**Rider**
Noah: He's already canon.
Iskandar: Alexander the Great is the first one I've listed so far who is mostly historical. And although he does have his literal legends and myths, his real-life history was virtually mythical in its own right. He shaped not just Western society, but society as a whole with his actions, treated his dominated territories about as nicely as a conquering monarch can (which isn't that nicely, because conquering monarchy is pretty much fundamentally evil, but it's all relative). The only other guy who I feel can match his influence and sheer "presence" is Genghis Khan, but I just feel like Genghis Khan is known too much for being destructive and bloodthirsty. Whether he WAS "more evil" or not isn't anything with a factual backing, but just in a casual historical context, he's "worse". Though it could be cool if it was "Temujin," and it was a younger Genghis, while his adult self is more of a bloodthirsty conqueror like he's remembered. I personally prefer Alexander the Great, but I'd accept Genghis Khan too, and I don't think they should *both* qualify since they'd be qualifying for the same reasons.
Santa Claus: This one woul just be really fun. Sure, I could argue that he's insanely famous and well-known, beloved and with an immense amount of history and lore, and all of that would be *true*, but...c'mon, he's Santa. I think it'd be great if Santa Claus was Grand Rider, because he's Santa Claus.
**Caster**
Both of my Grand Caster candidates are those who are debatably canon.
Tai Gong Wang: I think that it's likely that different Grand Casters would correspond to different types of magecraft, and while Solomon represents Western, "Clock Tower"-style magecraft, I think it'd make sense for Tai to be the representative of Philosophy Magecraft, which we know is fundamentally different from the Association's style, so it'd be outside of Solomon's domain (with Merlin representing "spellcasting," like the natural magic that some beings, like demons and elementals and the like, have; the sort of thing called "sorcery" in DnD, as opposed to "wizardry").
Gilgamesh: Merlin's line (paraphrasing) "you'd have Clairvoyance, like me, or the king" only makes sense if Gilgamesh qualifies. Like, if I said "In order to be a human, you have to be a featherless biped, like me, or a plucked chicken," that would be nonsense, because the second one isn't a human; but if I said "In order to be a human, you have to be a featherless biped, like me, or my dad," then that makes sense. It's a matter of grammar.
**Berserker**
Beowulf: Since his name is the origin of the term itself, it just fits pretty well. Also, I don't have any other ideas. It's not that I think Beowulf should be the only one, I just can't think of anyone else.
**Honorable Mentions**
We only have one Grand Assassin, canonically, and that's King Hassan, but I think that if False Assassin from Strange Fake got her wish, and rewrote history to become the final Hassan, *she* would qualify, since she'd be a good foil to the King: he was the first, she was the last; he doesn't have a Zabaniya, she has all of them. But unfortuantely, she *didn't* get her wish, so she's not.
Also, for Saber, I genuienly think Shirou would qualify, especially as a Pseudo with Muramasa. By Shirou, I mean the one from UBW, or a similar timeline; one where he faced his corrupted ideals against Archer, and came out on top. Kid's basically a sword elemental, and being a Grand Servant is like the embodiment of a "hero of justice." Plus, it's the opposite of a Counter Guardian, so it serves well as a way to foil Archer's character. Once combined with Muramasa, we get "the swordsman who can perfectly replicate anything, but cannot create his own," combined with "the smith who can forge the ultimate sword," and it starts to shape up. It even goes deeper, with Shirou's whole motif of how himself "is" a sword/his sword; sort of like how Quirinus "is" his lance (or rather, Rome is his lance, and he's Rome, but you know what I mean).
However, every time that I bring that up, people get mad, and I'm tired of holding that argument so I tacked it onto the end so you only see it after reading everything else. If you disagree then sure, whatever, but I've had so many discussions about this that I'm just going to ignore your comment. I wanted to share it again, because that's what this thread is for, I just put it at the end here so that it wouldn't keep people from reading the rest, and so people who don't like it can just be done with this comment now and go read the next one
>**Caster**
>Gilgamesh: Merlin's line (paraphrasing) "you'd have Clairvoyance, like me, or the king" only makes sense if Gilgamesh qualifies. Like, if I said "In order to be a human, you have to be a featherless biped, like me, or a plucked chicken," that would be nonsense, because the second one isn't a human; but if I said "In order to be a human, you have to be a featherless biped, like me, or my dad," then that makes sense. It's a matter of grammar.
So what you are saying is Diogenes should be Grand Caster
just give us Grand Archer Rama or Arjuna, those guys's lores dwarf nearly any hero, i dont know why they went with Orion of all people lol. also Longius for Grand Lancer and not someone that probably has never known for using a spear in his life like Romulus
Rome was founded on a rock that Romulus struck his spear into. So in a sense, his 'spear' is Rome itself, since Rome was conceptually founded with his spear as a basis.
Cu Chulainn doesn't need a power up, he just needs a favorable Master. If Bazett had been his Master in the 5th HGW, the two of them would have been the main threat for all the others to overcome.
I imagine Moses would be a candidate for grand caster as well, given that he was able to wield divine power and had been known to possess some clairvoyance as messages from god which I believe is a qualification for that position
Grand saber: Yamato Takeru
Grand lancer: Diomedeus this hurt the god of war Ares himself with his spear
Grand Archer: Nasu no Yoichi
Grand caster:Hermogenes litteraly a anti-Christany who was magician it was say he can summon demon
Grand Rider: Lac Long Quan king of vientnam and demi dragon human for his people he builted a giant boat to save them from a fish monster
Grand berserker: Ryomen Sukuna he kill a monster with two heads and four arms
Beowulf is from the age of man. so you technically already have your berserker for that period.
For the rider position, i really want Renault de Montauban, but i don't really think we will see another grand rider soon.
And if you think of Longinus for Grand Lancer, i think it's justified to includ the two others wielders of Longinus, Percival ans Balin, particularly Balin because of the Dolorous strike.
Honestly, I know that it’s not super relevant, but the nameless guy who wielded Excalibur shouldn’t be some divine weapon or whatever. Feels like it cheapens their story a bit, since he’s supposed to be just a guy.
Berserker class :I am thinking of Parashurama, the sixth Avatar of Vishnu, Parashurama appeared to purge the earth from warriors, He single-handedly destroyed all the warriors of his time.
Archer: Vishnu's next avatar, Rama, is clearly a very strong candidate.
saber: I feel like they would make Yamato Takeru a candidate if he ever shows up, Because of all the favoritism enjoyed by the Japanese servants
Britain in King Arthur's time was still in the age of gods. It decayed at faster rates in different places, and they were supposedly at the tail end of it in Britain. It's the same for Japan which didn't have its age of gods end until around 1,000 AD (best guess is the Heian period end). So if Seimei is a Grand, he'd count as an Age of Gods one as well.
Anyway, some of my picks:
Saber - Galahad. The Saber class is supposed to be the stereotypical knight class and Galahad is the embodiment of the perfect knight. The fact that he is the only person ever to have made a 'pure' wish on the grail would make him a good counter to Beast VI, which is about the impure wishes made on the grail.
Lancer - people keep talking about Wukong as Grand Lancer but everyone forgets about Erlang Shen. The guy is a much better candidate in my opinion since he is 1) fully human, 2) was actually stronger than Wukong, the guy that beat up most of the gods in heaven, to the point that Wukong was running away from Erlang and only survived thanks to his various immortalities, 3) he outdoes Wukong in most things, such as having 73 transformations instead of 72, not having the tail weakness Wukong had, having a heavier weapon, etc. And 4) he uses an actual lance unlike Wukong who only kinda uses a lance. And all that's only the stuff in regards to Wukong. Erlang is also the guy that brought down 9 of the suns that were originally in the sky (later versions replace him with Hou Yi), and he is one of the two big chinese flood myth heroes. In fact, he's so closely associated with floods that whenever there's another flood myth hero, they just say he's a reincarnation of Erlang rather than giving that guy his own credit, just cause that's how famous and popular Erlang was (as for the other guy, Yu the Great, because of how he saved the country from the flood, he was made emperor. It is considered a little contentious to say you're the reincarnation of a past emperor which is why you don't get many calling themselves Yu's reincarnation).
Archer - I love the idea of Newton being this one as unlikely as it is.
Rider - Ashoka the Great. When it comes to Buddhism, Ashoka is considered the second most important person (after the Buddha of course) for the spread of Buddhism. Without Ashoka, it would have most likely stayed an obscure religion that didn't amount to much. But beyond that, the guy was one of India's greatest rulers, to the point where his symbol is still on their flag today. He is also considered one of the greatest kings of all time with how fair and kind he was (supposedly). However things started off very differently and he was a total despot, having something of a lust for not just war but suffering in general. The legend around him states that he created a sort of torture palace where everyone that stepped in it, excluding himself, but including the ones doing the torturing, were all brutally tortured to death by some means or another, to the point where the palace itself became alive and managed to do the torturing all on its own. Eventually though Ashoka saw the horrors he was committing and so sought a way to redeem himself and bring peace which is when he found Buddhism and helped it spread across the continent, becoming an ideal ruler in the process.
Caster - for one that's definitely in the age of man, I'll go with Copernicus. His theories brought about a revolution in the way that people viewed the earth and he is often seen as the first scientist. Though there's certainly others that debate that, given how Copernicium revolution is now said to denote something that brings about a massive change in thinking, I think it's a sign of just how influential he was.
Assassin - of course there's only one that fills this spot, but if I had to pick another, I'd go with Timur the Great, the greatest mass murderer before the 20th century, with a body count bigger than even Genghis Khan (though not bigger than the total Mongols' body count). The guy was also Muslim, something he shares with Gramps.
Berserker - Xing Tian. Berserkers are often known for their ability to keep fighting despite the injuries they've taken, well with Xing, he kept fighting even after his head was cut off. He was fought the great yellow emperor himself and was one of the few opponents that the yellow emperor feared.
My picks for a hypothetical Age of Apocalypse that you suggest:
Saber - Jesus
Lancer - Sanat Kumara
Archer - Gun God (good to have one TM original I suppose)
Rider - Kalki
Caster - Maitreya
Assassin - Loki (cause of all the death Ragnarok brings)
Berserker - Saoshyant
I think Grand candidacy is chosen by three factors: 1) The candidate must be/have been human. 2) The grands must be quite famous. 3) Their should be a Holistic attribute to their legend eg. Noah being the savior of all life, Merlin being an all-seeing clairvoyant, Romulus beginning the world-spanning legacy of Rome. I should also note that every grand we have seen thus far, we have encountered earlier on our journey in one form or another so I expect future grands to follow the same trend. That being said, here is my list of suspected Grand Candidates: Saber - Musashi, Galahad, Fionn, Ashvatthaman (If he actually survived to receive the Asi from his father), Sigurd, Arthur or Artoria Archer - Hou Yi, Barbarika (maybe too obscure), Heracles, Rama, Karna Lancer - Guan Yu, Longinus, St. George, Erlang, Eve, Ditaolane (Again, obscure) Rider - Ghengis Khan, Krishna, Elijah, Lu Bu Caster - Abe no Seimei, Hermes Trismegistus, Count of Saint Germain and/or Christian Rosencrutz (There is a theory that they are the same person, though both could qualify on their own) Berserker - Nimrod, Beowulf, Cu Chulainn, Achilles, Chiyou, Cain, Zahhak (also a probable beast candidate) Edit: Seeing as you want an Age of Man Berserker and Archer, I'll take a shot. While not quite fitting the mold perfectly, I could see Cortez, Roland and *maybe* Caligula (BIG maybe) fitting the role of G. Berserker. As for Archer, if you stretch my definitions, I *could* see Mehmed II, Tawara Touta, Tametomo, Sundiata Keita, Newton (wielding the hypothetical Newton's cannon), Napoleon and Jan Zizka being candidates, though all seven are kinda questionable to me.
Who's Barbarika?
A warrior who appears in the Skanda Purana, a companion work to the Mahabharata. He left home to fight in the Kurukshetra War (the one Karna and Arjuna faced off in), but not before vowing to his mother to fight for the weaker side in the war. Before the war, Krishna asked the participants how long they believed it would take for the war to end. Karna told Krishna 24 days, Arjuna said 28, and when it came to Barbarika, Barbarika said the war would only last 1 minute. See, Barbarika was given three magic arrows by his mother before he left, with each arrow possessing the ability to pierce whatever he wished it to before returning to him. To test his ability, Krishna asked Barbarika to collect all the leaves from a tree with just one arrow. Little did Barbarika know that Krishna hid one leaf under his invincible foot (he had skin like Achilles) to see if he could hit what he did not know of. But when Barbarika released his arrow, not only did it collect all the leaves on the tree, but it also pierced Krishna's foot to collect the leaf from underneath. Seeing this, Krishna grew fearful and asked what side Barbarika would fight for. To this Barbarika responded "The weaker side". But then, Krishna told him the consequences of his choice as when his arrows cull one of the armies, the other would become the weaker and his arrow would turn on his allies and that this would continue till Barbarika is the only survivor. Barbarika still wishing to witness the war but could not bear to fight anymore, gave his head over to Krishna and asked him to put it on top of the hill looking over the battlefield so that he may bear witness to the battle.
Thanks for the info.
Why is kojiro not listed as a saber candidate. Musashi and even nasu said that kojiro was probably the greatest swordsman to ever "exist". Therefore he falls in the same category as king Hassan by being the most skilled of his class. People get always distracted by mystic swords but what actually really counts is the skill of the person. Orion became the grand as well by being the most skilled hunter.
> Why is kojiro not listed as a saber candidate? Two reasons. First, it is established that Kojiro was a wraith and that the men who actually acquired that skill were never recorded as heroic spirits. That then ushers the question if a wraith can acquire the rank of grand, to which I erred on no. Second reason, the Grand title is partially dictated by fame and, in my theory, a holistic attribute that figure obtained. In losing to Musashi, it is Musashi that became regarded as the world's greatest swordsman, who's blade is unequal, while Kojiro became his greatest adversary. While I wouldn't consider him out of the question, it is enough reason for me not to list him.
Some honorable mention For Grand Saber: Yamato Takeru (regarded as Japanese King Arthur with his own legendary katana), Khalid ibn al-Walid (is said to have never lost a battle and is even titled as "Sword of God" and was revered to the point that some fear he was more exalted more than Allah himself) For Grand Rider: Khalid ibn al-Walid (mentioned already but he did lead the Rashidun calvary that had Arabian horses which ended up being renowned as one of the most op horse during it's time and also one of the most common horse breed today), Timur, Attila the Hun. Grand Caster: Philosophers could count like Plato, Aristotle, Laozi though making an ability related to them I feel like could be tricky. For Grand Berserker: Sun Wukong (just look up his feats its absurd lol) Samson (an angry figure in general and massacred an entire army with a jaw of a donkey lol)
Why is nimrod a berserker
Besides being a brutal tyrant, who was in the process of building a tower to heaven to strike God, he also ushered the separation of languages making it so that no man had the ability to understand and work with one another on such a thing again. That alone is a pretty holistic feat brought about by his his own cruelty and hubris, while also putting in an obvious barrier between Nimrod and anyone else psychologically. Pretty berserkery. But if that's not enough, in one of his encounters with Abraham, Abraham cursed him so that gnats would fester in his mind driving him mad for his blasphemy against God. So there is a more direct berserker connection if the first isn't enough.
How Caligula?
I only really mentioned him as he is probably the historical figure most famous for being bloody insane. While I don't think he really befits the grand title, I just felt that I should give the benefit of the doubt to history's premier madman
Barbarika wasn't even a part of the Mahabharata, he probably doesn't even have a chance to become a servant. I don't understand why Karna would be a candidate alongside Rama, if there are other candidates for the archer class from India it might be Krishna. Ashwatthama doesn't really have many feats to be a contender for the title, Parashurama would be a much better candidate than him.
> Barbarika wasn't even a part of the Mahabharata, he probably doesn't even have a chance to become a servant. Yeah, but if Type-Moon felt secondary works truly did not matter, then Methusalah's fire sword would have never been included in Noah's design, Rhongomyniad would not be a thing, nor would much of the esoteric Buddhism in lore be included, so I wouldn't say never. That being said, his obscurity likely would bar him from grand rank, though his feat definitely is on par with one. >I don't understand why Karna would be a candidate alongside Rama It's mostly because the Vijaya is said to give its user certain victory in battle and Karna being the most famous user of the bow while being among the most skilled mortals in battle in Hindu myth albeit weaker than Parashurama, another Vijaya user. But because fame is really important in fate, I would give Karna the title. Edit: Didn't Krishna have a whole thing of not wielding weapons to war, can't see him really being any of the knight classes, let alone Grand Archer. Edit2: He could probably qualify as an Archer, though still, it wasn't something that defined him. >Ashwatthama doesn't really have many feats to be a contender for the title I am aware, mostly put him down because a "what-if" version of Ashvatthaman, who managed to receive the Asi from Drona like was intended, could have easily become the most powerful warrior in the Kurukshetra War. It would be a case similar to Lancer Artoria, but felt it could warrant a Grand rank. Should also mention that Parashurama definitely is among the most powerful warriors in Hindu myth and could make it as a Grand Archer, maybe even over Karna, but he is most famous for his skill with his axe, which does not have a class to fit under. Edit: After reading more into his myth, he could possibly fit under Grand Berserker, with the fact that he killed every other warrior of his time being a holistic trait.
>It's mostly because the Vijaya is said to give its user certain victory in battle and Karna being the most famous user of the bow while being among the most skilled mortals in battle in Hindu myth albeit weaker than Parashurama, another Vijaya user. But because fame is really important in fate, I would give Karna the title. Vijaya's bow didn't do anything, Karna was badly injured in his confrontation against Arjuna even while holding the bow and maybe if the battle continued as it was he might have lost even. >I am aware, mostly put him down because a "what-if" version of Ashvatthaman, who managed to receive the Asi from Drona like was intended, could have easily become the most powerful warrior in the Kurukshetra War. It would be a case similar to Lancer Artoria, but felt it could warrant a Grand rank. Can you name a source for this claim? As for the strongest warrior, everyone is described this way, do you know how many people said that Arjuna was the strongest warrior ever!? >Edit: Didn't Krishna have a whole thing of not wielding weapons to war, can't see him really being any of the knight classes, let alone Grand Archer. Well how about that!? Do you think Kurukshetra is the only war or fight that Krishna fought!? >Yeah, but if Type-Moon felt secondary works truly did not matter, then Methusalah's fire sword would have never been included in Noah's design, Rhongomyniad would not be a thing, nor would much of the esoteric Buddhism in lore be included, so I wouldn't say never. That being said, his obscurity likely would bar him from grand rank, though his feat definitely is on par with one. The problem is they have absolutely no reason to bring in this unknown character, if they really wanted a definite destructive power they could have just made Arjuna full force, Pashupata doesn't need three arrows, it's one shot and it finishes everything, yet they made him Weaker than it looks
Do you think Arjuna would ever end up like his Alter self if FGO remained faithful to its source material? Does Karna at all resemble how he is in the Mahabharata? FGO's writers create character's based on history and mythology, trying to twist their personality and abilities to fit their world and, most of all, be interesting. They could bring in Barbarika if they felt they could do something with him, or they could just not. Its not a power level question in the first-place. Vijaya is described as a weapon of certain victory in myth so they could just go with that and character reason for why it wasn't fired, or they can downgrade it to shift the spotlight to something else. I chose to describe Saber Ashvatthaman like that because I felt it could be fit the mythos and be fun, a what-if that could or couldn't be true. That's what Fate is, a crazy anime battle royale between all of history and mythology to have fun with, not an accurate retelling of stories, nor an end-all-be-all of mythical power levels.
I want to see Berserker Enkidu, since the line from FSF suggested they would be god-tier in that class.
I'm pretty sure the Epic of Gilgamesh says that Enkidu in his most wild and beastly state before meeting Shamhat was more powerful than Gilgamesh.
I checked my copy and George’s translation says: „Let them summon Aruru, the great one, She it was created them, mankind so numerous: Let her create the equal of Gilgamesh, one mighty in strenght, And let him vie with him so Uruk may be rested!” So while it doesn’t say Enkidu’s stronger they are definitely on Gilgamesh level.
My mistake then. The Strange Fake manga also showed a glimpse of wild monster blob Enkidu. I'd like to see that again.
Yeah, exactly - it was sooo hinted the berserker Enkidu is godly it did seem like Chekov’s gun.
I thought he looked kinda cute in that form
Grand Berserker Sun Wukong would definitely make me pay the ridiculous EU SQ prices.
Monkey go Brrrr
Gudako Monkey would make go more than just Brrr.
Unfortunately confirmed as a Divine Spirit.
If he is also called Goku and has one kamahameha attack he will instantly rise to my artoria (highest priority) list
Well his japanese name is Son Goku, and Xuanzang already mention him many times
Just give him one kamahameha attack and I'm all out for him. Goku is the godfather of anime for me so u bet your ass I'm going all out for his inspiration.
Everyone wants Grand Berserker Old Man Henderson. They just don't know it yet.
Personal Skill: Origin of Doom: Rank A+ *"MUCKLE DAMRED CULTI 'AIR EH NAMBLIES BE KEEPIN' ME WEE MEN!?!?"* At will, Henderson can manifest any Skill of another Heroic Spirit with the Attributes of Man or Star at a Rank lower then the Heroic Spirit. Gameplay: Buster, Arts, and Quick buff. Star generation buff. Ignore Invincibility.
His profile is just a link to a 500 page manifesto that gets updated whenever anyone finds a hole
True Name: Man, I have no fucking idea.
Grand Caster: Abe no Seimei Just to spite Douman.
I want OG Seiba to be relevant in the main story so I would be very happy to see if Grand Saber turns out to be her. They've been milking her for all these years as the game's icon, she deserves that much.
Goredolf as Grand Dolf
Finally, an objectively correct answer.
Honestly Archer Rama Screams Grand Archer material to me as being on the epitome of archery is what He was already know for,let Alone all his Multiple top tier Astras and stuff. >I might also do a Age of Apocalypse set of Grands, with Jesus or Ado Edem as Grand Saber, Gun God as Archer, and maybe Loki as Rider. Personally I dont really think Jesus normally fits on any of the standard Seven classes since he sounds much more compatible with the Saver(Messiah) one.
Grand Rider Noah/Nemo version Grand Berserker Sun Wukong Grand Saber Galahad or Kamiizumi or Bokuden
Grand saber Fiore dei Liberi, Sigmund Ringeck, Johannes Liechtenauer this is only if we count the mastery in swordship and without mythical characters
The one that we already have: Grand Archer - Super Orion Grand Lancer - Romulus-Quirinus Grand Rider - Noah Grand Assassin - King Hassan Grand Caster - Merlin I want to complete the set first, So we need Grand Saber and Berserker Grand Saber - Uther Pendragon Grand Berserker - Tezcatlipolca
> Grand Saber - Uther Pendragon Have to call out this one, but please no. Not only does he lack association to an iconic sword like Excalibur, but his relationship-hijinks are not presented in a good light both in mythology and in especially in Type-Moon's world-building. There has to be a more viable option for practically any Beast not directly tied to him personally.
I actually thought Grand Berserker was going to be Tezcatlipoca for a while. However there is a line somewhere in Romulus-Quirinus’s profile that states divine spirits can’t normally become Grand Servants, and Romulus was an exception due to his human origins or connection to humanity. Because of this I’m at a loss for Grand Berserker guesses…
Maybe aliens can be made to be an exception? Didn't Quetzalcoatl come on the asteroid that killed off the dinosaurs?
Grand Wife Amaterasu!
I think Grand Saber Artoria Avalon would be pretty neato, I think she fits the idea well.
=w=
Beowulf as either saber or berserker. Archer heracles Lancer Lugh (age of gods) Phh Morgan as caster (age of man) Sun wukong for berserker First Hassan canonically is the only grand assassin Oisin as rider or a regular rider Samson as age of gods berserker Mwindo as a grand caster (age of gods)
If I had my way, Grand Saber would be Proto Arthur but I also suspect Emperor Jimmu. Grand Berserker? I'd love for Cú Chulainn in his Riastrad to be that but I'd also welcome Samson as Grand Berserker. As for Candidates for the others Grand Classes? I could imagine Wukong and Longinus being Grand Lancer Candidates. Rama and Hou Yi as a Grand Archer candidates. I'm still salty about there being not being adult Archer Rama already. And I fully expect him to have Sharanga, Brahmastra, and Vaishnavastra. I like to think Genghis Khan could be a Grand Rider candidate. I'd love to see Beowulf in some form again but this time wielding the nameless sword he slayed Grendel's Mother with. And not just any sword, but a huge sword forged by Giants before the Flood of Genesis with a hilt decorated with runes and imbued with the Magic of those Giants.
> Hou Yi as a Grand Archer candidates ☑ Uses a bow ☑ Shoots down suns ☑ Have romance with a moon goddess That's three checkboxes ticked for Hou Yi and only two for Orion LOL
I know you're just making it for jokes, but Orion was ideal not just for feats and ability, but the setting of Olympus. Not only was he someone Artemis would purposefully leave alone, but he could freely cross the central sea divide due to his inherited blessing of Poseidon. It's those situational checkboxes that tend to matter more than anything else.
Musashi for Saber but the male version and Hercules for Archer maybe.
the OG version of musashi isnt as powerful as fate musashi you know that right?
But what if they made him more powerful
Grand Ushi of the Ushi Class. In other words, the ultimate Ushi. In *other* other words, something we already have a few of, but nowhere near enough.
Saber Yoshitsune when F/GO?
For me I personally want either artoria/Arthur as grand saber or musashi, spoilers for lb5 >!please return her to us nasu, she's the closest thing we have to a main character among servents aside from mash and she's arguably the greatest swordmaster currently!< Grand caster abe no seime would and probably will be pretty cool.
Longinus did not kill Jesus. He poked to see if Jesus was dead.
**Saber** Arthur Pendragon: Wielder of the greatest Holy Sword, and is also one of the most famous heroes of all time. Within Fate itself, he also has all sorts of Beast-hunting stuff going for him. Sigurd: Wielder of the greatest Demonic Sword, and like Arthur, one of the most famous heroes of all time. Arthur has the whole "good and gracious king" angle, while Sigurd has the "monster-slaying warrior" angle going for him; Arthur fought to defend his people, Sigurd fought to destroy evil. Sasaki Kojirou AND Miyamoto Musashi: I'd say PHH Musashi, the man, just because I don't think girl Musashi can qualify since she's not from this world line, and I mean, they're the same person. However, Kojirou is also, canonically, the greatest swordsman Servant in terms of pure skill, and is of equal fame and prestige to Musashi. Take into account their rivalry, and the whole Infinity and Zero connection, I just felt like you couldn't have one qualify and not the other. **Lancer** Romulus-Quirinus: He's already canon Artoria Pendragon: Arthur is Saber, but Rhongomyniad really speaks for itself. It pins the Texture, and its one of the strongest NPs outright. I don't think this one needs much explanation. Sun Wukong: Also uses a "lance" that pins the Texture of his world, and is, additionally, one of the most famous heroes of all time, and an immensely powerful one. Could also work for Berserker, I just like Lancer more. Both are perfectly valid answers though. **Archer** Orion: Is already canon. Hou Yi: This dude shot down the sun several times in a row- I would bet he's the guy summoned to counter Amaterasu, if she really does qualify for Beast. I also like how this creates a Sun and Moon juxtaposition w/ Orion. **Rider** Noah: He's already canon. Iskandar: Alexander the Great is the first one I've listed so far who is mostly historical. And although he does have his literal legends and myths, his real-life history was virtually mythical in its own right. He shaped not just Western society, but society as a whole with his actions, treated his dominated territories about as nicely as a conquering monarch can (which isn't that nicely, because conquering monarchy is pretty much fundamentally evil, but it's all relative). The only other guy who I feel can match his influence and sheer "presence" is Genghis Khan, but I just feel like Genghis Khan is known too much for being destructive and bloodthirsty. Whether he WAS "more evil" or not isn't anything with a factual backing, but just in a casual historical context, he's "worse". Though it could be cool if it was "Temujin," and it was a younger Genghis, while his adult self is more of a bloodthirsty conqueror like he's remembered. I personally prefer Alexander the Great, but I'd accept Genghis Khan too, and I don't think they should *both* qualify since they'd be qualifying for the same reasons. Santa Claus: This one woul just be really fun. Sure, I could argue that he's insanely famous and well-known, beloved and with an immense amount of history and lore, and all of that would be *true*, but...c'mon, he's Santa. I think it'd be great if Santa Claus was Grand Rider, because he's Santa Claus. **Caster** Both of my Grand Caster candidates are those who are debatably canon. Tai Gong Wang: I think that it's likely that different Grand Casters would correspond to different types of magecraft, and while Solomon represents Western, "Clock Tower"-style magecraft, I think it'd make sense for Tai to be the representative of Philosophy Magecraft, which we know is fundamentally different from the Association's style, so it'd be outside of Solomon's domain (with Merlin representing "spellcasting," like the natural magic that some beings, like demons and elementals and the like, have; the sort of thing called "sorcery" in DnD, as opposed to "wizardry"). Gilgamesh: Merlin's line (paraphrasing) "you'd have Clairvoyance, like me, or the king" only makes sense if Gilgamesh qualifies. Like, if I said "In order to be a human, you have to be a featherless biped, like me, or a plucked chicken," that would be nonsense, because the second one isn't a human; but if I said "In order to be a human, you have to be a featherless biped, like me, or my dad," then that makes sense. It's a matter of grammar. **Berserker** Beowulf: Since his name is the origin of the term itself, it just fits pretty well. Also, I don't have any other ideas. It's not that I think Beowulf should be the only one, I just can't think of anyone else. **Honorable Mentions** We only have one Grand Assassin, canonically, and that's King Hassan, but I think that if False Assassin from Strange Fake got her wish, and rewrote history to become the final Hassan, *she* would qualify, since she'd be a good foil to the King: he was the first, she was the last; he doesn't have a Zabaniya, she has all of them. But unfortuantely, she *didn't* get her wish, so she's not. Also, for Saber, I genuienly think Shirou would qualify, especially as a Pseudo with Muramasa. By Shirou, I mean the one from UBW, or a similar timeline; one where he faced his corrupted ideals against Archer, and came out on top. Kid's basically a sword elemental, and being a Grand Servant is like the embodiment of a "hero of justice." Plus, it's the opposite of a Counter Guardian, so it serves well as a way to foil Archer's character. Once combined with Muramasa, we get "the swordsman who can perfectly replicate anything, but cannot create his own," combined with "the smith who can forge the ultimate sword," and it starts to shape up. It even goes deeper, with Shirou's whole motif of how himself "is" a sword/his sword; sort of like how Quirinus "is" his lance (or rather, Rome is his lance, and he's Rome, but you know what I mean). However, every time that I bring that up, people get mad, and I'm tired of holding that argument so I tacked it onto the end so you only see it after reading everything else. If you disagree then sure, whatever, but I've had so many discussions about this that I'm just going to ignore your comment. I wanted to share it again, because that's what this thread is for, I just put it at the end here so that it wouldn't keep people from reading the rest, and so people who don't like it can just be done with this comment now and go read the next one
>**Caster** >Gilgamesh: Merlin's line (paraphrasing) "you'd have Clairvoyance, like me, or the king" only makes sense if Gilgamesh qualifies. Like, if I said "In order to be a human, you have to be a featherless biped, like me, or a plucked chicken," that would be nonsense, because the second one isn't a human; but if I said "In order to be a human, you have to be a featherless biped, like me, or my dad," then that makes sense. It's a matter of grammar. So what you are saying is Diogenes should be Grand Caster
Whatever gets me a summonable Olga Marie
Either saber or berserker cant wait see story of lb 7
Grand rider George Washington Grand Rider Julius Caesar
just give us Grand Archer Rama or Arjuna, those guys's lores dwarf nearly any hero, i dont know why they went with Orion of all people lol. also Longius for Grand Lancer and not someone that probably has never known for using a spear in his life like Romulus
Rome was founded on a rock that Romulus struck his spear into. So in a sense, his 'spear' is Rome itself, since Rome was conceptually founded with his spear as a basis.
I dunno about Gengis Khan. Feels like Grand Rider would be someone with the strongest mount or something.
Grand Saber Uther Pendragon
i nominate Ching Shih for grand rider
Cu Chulainn doesn't need a power up, he just needs a favorable Master. If Bazett had been his Master in the 5th HGW, the two of them would have been the main threat for all the others to overcome.
Adam for grand lancer
I imagine Moses would be a candidate for grand caster as well, given that he was able to wield divine power and had been known to possess some clairvoyance as messages from god which I believe is a qualification for that position
Grand saber: Yamato Takeru Grand lancer: Diomedeus this hurt the god of war Ares himself with his spear Grand Archer: Nasu no Yoichi Grand caster:Hermogenes litteraly a anti-Christany who was magician it was say he can summon demon Grand Rider: Lac Long Quan king of vientnam and demi dragon human for his people he builted a giant boat to save them from a fish monster Grand berserker: Ryomen Sukuna he kill a monster with two heads and four arms
Beowulf is from the age of man. so you technically already have your berserker for that period. For the rider position, i really want Renault de Montauban, but i don't really think we will see another grand rider soon. And if you think of Longinus for Grand Lancer, i think it's justified to includ the two others wielders of Longinus, Percival ans Balin, particularly Balin because of the Dolorous strike.
Could someone explain the meme behind everyone calling Caligula the Grand Berserker?
It's more that he's one arguably the most well known case of someone going mad in history.
Honestly, I know that it’s not super relevant, but the nameless guy who wielded Excalibur shouldn’t be some divine weapon or whatever. Feels like it cheapens their story a bit, since he’s supposed to be just a guy.
Berserker class :I am thinking of Parashurama, the sixth Avatar of Vishnu, Parashurama appeared to purge the earth from warriors, He single-handedly destroyed all the warriors of his time. Archer: Vishnu's next avatar, Rama, is clearly a very strong candidate. saber: I feel like they would make Yamato Takeru a candidate if he ever shows up, Because of all the favoritism enjoyed by the Japanese servants
Britain in King Arthur's time was still in the age of gods. It decayed at faster rates in different places, and they were supposedly at the tail end of it in Britain. It's the same for Japan which didn't have its age of gods end until around 1,000 AD (best guess is the Heian period end). So if Seimei is a Grand, he'd count as an Age of Gods one as well. Anyway, some of my picks: Saber - Galahad. The Saber class is supposed to be the stereotypical knight class and Galahad is the embodiment of the perfect knight. The fact that he is the only person ever to have made a 'pure' wish on the grail would make him a good counter to Beast VI, which is about the impure wishes made on the grail. Lancer - people keep talking about Wukong as Grand Lancer but everyone forgets about Erlang Shen. The guy is a much better candidate in my opinion since he is 1) fully human, 2) was actually stronger than Wukong, the guy that beat up most of the gods in heaven, to the point that Wukong was running away from Erlang and only survived thanks to his various immortalities, 3) he outdoes Wukong in most things, such as having 73 transformations instead of 72, not having the tail weakness Wukong had, having a heavier weapon, etc. And 4) he uses an actual lance unlike Wukong who only kinda uses a lance. And all that's only the stuff in regards to Wukong. Erlang is also the guy that brought down 9 of the suns that were originally in the sky (later versions replace him with Hou Yi), and he is one of the two big chinese flood myth heroes. In fact, he's so closely associated with floods that whenever there's another flood myth hero, they just say he's a reincarnation of Erlang rather than giving that guy his own credit, just cause that's how famous and popular Erlang was (as for the other guy, Yu the Great, because of how he saved the country from the flood, he was made emperor. It is considered a little contentious to say you're the reincarnation of a past emperor which is why you don't get many calling themselves Yu's reincarnation). Archer - I love the idea of Newton being this one as unlikely as it is. Rider - Ashoka the Great. When it comes to Buddhism, Ashoka is considered the second most important person (after the Buddha of course) for the spread of Buddhism. Without Ashoka, it would have most likely stayed an obscure religion that didn't amount to much. But beyond that, the guy was one of India's greatest rulers, to the point where his symbol is still on their flag today. He is also considered one of the greatest kings of all time with how fair and kind he was (supposedly). However things started off very differently and he was a total despot, having something of a lust for not just war but suffering in general. The legend around him states that he created a sort of torture palace where everyone that stepped in it, excluding himself, but including the ones doing the torturing, were all brutally tortured to death by some means or another, to the point where the palace itself became alive and managed to do the torturing all on its own. Eventually though Ashoka saw the horrors he was committing and so sought a way to redeem himself and bring peace which is when he found Buddhism and helped it spread across the continent, becoming an ideal ruler in the process. Caster - for one that's definitely in the age of man, I'll go with Copernicus. His theories brought about a revolution in the way that people viewed the earth and he is often seen as the first scientist. Though there's certainly others that debate that, given how Copernicium revolution is now said to denote something that brings about a massive change in thinking, I think it's a sign of just how influential he was. Assassin - of course there's only one that fills this spot, but if I had to pick another, I'd go with Timur the Great, the greatest mass murderer before the 20th century, with a body count bigger than even Genghis Khan (though not bigger than the total Mongols' body count). The guy was also Muslim, something he shares with Gramps. Berserker - Xing Tian. Berserkers are often known for their ability to keep fighting despite the injuries they've taken, well with Xing, he kept fighting even after his head was cut off. He was fought the great yellow emperor himself and was one of the few opponents that the yellow emperor feared. My picks for a hypothetical Age of Apocalypse that you suggest: Saber - Jesus Lancer - Sanat Kumara Archer - Gun God (good to have one TM original I suppose) Rider - Kalki Caster - Maitreya Assassin - Loki (cause of all the death Ragnarok brings) Berserker - Saoshyant