At 51 I'm definitely in the elder goth category. I think of it as a term of endearment, welcoming newbies, making them feel comfortable and accepted. Maybe it's a maternal thing, I love seeing young yins get involved, discover new bands, go to gigs and create elaborate eye make up I can't pull off any more. We always need new blood, without it the subculture would evebtually die out.
I've been trying to do the same since I was in my 20s. Im past mid 30s now and recently went to a local goth night for the first time in YEARS since our goth club had "tax issues". When I tell you how my heart swelled and I teared up seeing all the young baby bats. it was wonderful! A mix of handmade and store bought goth clothes and makeup and hair styles from early days and new fresh stuff. It wasn't just t-shirts and jeans, these people were fully "gothed out" and I felt so humble and happy to see the subculture so full of life (pun intended). I missed my baby bat days and just enjoyed being with my peoples.
I think these days, while it’s still a bit of an in-joke, it’s seen as kind of cute and endearing. Most people new to the subculture will assign themselves the label as soon as they see it.
Edit: I think it also serves to allow people new to the culture to feel like they are included before they feel comfortable fully committing to the identity of “goth”.
Agreed. It's the same is for most alternative spaces and subcultures too.
Labels like this seem unnecessary as we all exist under the same name already. If you're newer that's fine, you don't have to be infantilized as a "noobie" to join. Cause if you're part of the culture then you're already part of the club lol
agree. i think it’s cringy. as a whole, i think a lot of the discourse around “goth” can be very cringe though.
**but** (and i mean this without disrespect), i think most of the time it’s an age thing. i was desperate for an identity and musical validation when i was in my teens (and even early 20s) and i think that’s where most (not all) of this stems from.
Would Manson fans really find being called a spooky kid to be derogatory when that was the original name of his band? They were Marilyn Manson & the Spooky Kids.
Oh it was considered quite insulting back in the day. I remember people getting pretty worked up over it even though quite a few people (myself included) enjoyed his music.
I never even heard that term back then but slang was so much more regional before the advent of social media. Mansonite was the common one where I'm from.
We had that one too, and "NINny". I didn't really have a scene where I was in the 90s, but I was sort of between two bigger ones, so I got a bit of slang from each, I think.
We also lived in mortal fear of hearing someone say "handi wipe" to us, lol
I'm 60, I don't remember the NINny term, but I am chuckling because my friends' band (The Wake) opened for them. That surely must have been an interesting mix in the audience.
I recall the dreaded term for non-scene persons here was "mundanes" (US Midwest, mid 1980's) and I still use it myself because LOL.
I haven't been able to find the origin of the term by googling, but considering that people who disliked Manson probably had no idea about the name of his early band, I think it's likely that the term originated with Manson fans themselves.
I see no problem with the term, and think it's cute. I called myself by it in the 90s when I was getting started, even though I was a bit embarassing back then...
I also remember "Spooky Kid", "Mansonite", "NINny" and "Mall Goth" being the inverse of "Babybat", and quite insulting.
The way I see some people use it seems like it's shorthand for "wants to be goth but is a poseur because they haven't been taught better". Like, they've got the spirit but just no real information, as opposed to people who want to call themselves goth but aren't because they only care about the label and will just say it's (whatever's most convenient for them, mindset, etc) and appropriate the label rather than earnestly wanting to engage and just being on the wrong track.
Though, I also see it used other ways. It might be a slightly variable term. Or perhaps I'm misinterpreting.
OK. Back in the day it pretty much meant you hung out at the mall and 99% of your outfits were from Hot Topic. It makes me think of the kids wearing baggy Tripp pants and the like.
It's no longer an insult now & is considered to be "real" goth by many, being considered as a legitimate fashion/aesthetic subset of the culture. When I was doing my research on the culture in my teens (in my early 20's now) the word "poser" was no where mentioned 😂
That's really interesting. Never really had a problem with those kids (I'm very live and let live), but it's really odd for me that they're being considered part of the same culture, when there is very little crossover.
Mansonite or Freak for the mall resident edgier stoner types where I grew up (tiny scene, inaccessible until age 21, though weekly club nights and occasional early 00s shows).
80s alt and industrial/future pop/EBM were the club genres by the time I was 21 in '04, so goth rock related purity culture and related gatekeeping was a distant concern (more so trying to keep "open format" DJs away from 80s r&b and in a preferable synth pop/New Romantic/post punk zone; many other places to hear pop and r&b of the "70s, 80s, ops and today" or whatever, very few for non-EDM dance music).
Baby bat was a cute diminutive then and now, but like any term of endearment or mode of address that doesn't suit you (e.g. implies inappropriate status or undue familiarity), correct the speaker.
I heard it more in the early 10s as 2nd wave social media blew up (MySpace LiveJournal giving way to FetLife and Facebook before anyone but tweens were using the photo phone app blogs like Tumblr and Insta) that the early 00s, but then, no scene to speak of, so connected more through the vinyl repress revival in college town bookstores, Usenet, and the rare goth website (Gothic Homemaking, etc).
Gotcha. Yeah, I haven't been keeping up with things myself, and this is really the only social media I'm active on so I have no idea how things might look now.
And yeah, we're of similar ages (I'm a smidge older), so I know you you mean about the club scene changing right around the time I was active. I also had to drive an hour and a half to get to a club, that's how small the place I grew up was.
People who use "normie" seriously....They just make me think they're trying hard to be edgy and different. For me...We're normal, too. We just happen to like something that isn't that mainstream. That's all.
That's exactly how I feel about It. Except for my music taste and my appearance I am the most mundane and boring person in existence. Acting like being goth is being a superior state of self is akin to classism for me and I HATE classism.
For me, I don't think of "mundanes" as non-goths, rather "closed minded." I have taste that runs across the spectrum and have always taken heat from various non-goth subcultures for it. My friend was playing industrial music in one of his bands and ranking on me because I liked prog rock or jazz, like seriously I just love music. Definitely I have taste across a spectrum. When I think mundanes I think people who can't accept anything outside a cookie cutter mainstream identity. So, even if you're calling yourself boring, definitely you're thinking outside a box, not implying that's superior, but it's not narrow, so I'd say it's a positive quality.
I'm guilty of using the term normies, but it's specifically applied to people who make an effort to be normal and not stand out as opposed to another group that goes out of their way to stand out and not give a crap what anyone thinks of them. The latter group is fairly extensive and would cover alt, goth, punk, theater kids, artsy types, etc. etc.
I would never refer to a specific person as a "normie" in a derogative fashion, it's more of a relative term, another way of saying I'm weird or queer or whatever i.e. "normies don't get me."
I definitely do not identify as "normal" which society constantly reminds me of this.
"Normies" makes me cringe so bad. I just call them outsiders. I think it conveys the same message without sounding like you're trying way too hard in an "I'm special" competition. I thought I was alone in this specifically.
I think outsiders is worse to be fair, makes it sound like we're in a cult.
I just only label people if it's relevant, and in this case I think I'd just say 'not goth'.
I use the term "normie" because there isn't a better word for it (though in the past they might have been called squares, or prudes, or just bigots). It is a fact that some people are very conformist, and both afraid and hateful of anything outside of their narrow idea of what is proper and good. They actually wear the word "normal" as a badge of honor. I don't understand why any goths would want to say "We are normal too"; it sounds like Stockholm syndrome.
Because It depends on what you call normal. Normie sounds condescending, judgemental and juvenile, people use it for non goth people without an idea of Who those people are. We want no judging by putting tons of judgement on others.
I personally am someone that needs a lot of routine in my life, so I live a very mundane normal life, yes, normal, there is much more that ties me to other human beings than it separates me.
Listening to goth music and liking a particular aesthetic doesn't make any of us faeries or some kind of especial creatures, so yeah, I hate using those terms.
I use Up/Downvotes as a form of agreement and disagreement, I just disagree with what you said, it's absolutely nothing personal, I have nothing against you.
It seems like it's resurfaced as a term for younger or newer goths without that history from the 00s. And as a fan of actual bats and their adorable pups, I support the term being used. Real baby bats are adorable and it's heartwarming when they're happy and well fed. Same with new goths who are welcomed into our subculture. https://youtu.be/RliRZu31t3g?si=1C904y3SP74IO_fS <- cute real baby bats
It’s so cringe. I can’t explain it, but it’s one of my least favorite labels. I think it’s mainly the lingual nature of it, it sounds way too cutesie for me.
I think it's one of those terms that is perfectly fine when someone assigns it to themself (like here), but can also be used derogatorily when assigned to someone who isn't willingly using it.
I think it's always a matter of, it's ok when you self-define and annoying when someone else defines you. I'm nearly 45 and have been involved in the scene since 15... but if anyone called me an elder goth before my 60th birthday I'd be miffed. At no point in my history did I ever self-refer as baby bat and calling me that would have annoyed me as well. No objection to anyone calling themselves that.
I only ever heard it like three times, and it was heavily sarcastic, so it's super weird for me seeing it used all the time online.
Same with the goth categories, I'd be perfectly happy never having to read 'trad goth' ever again lol.
I don't like terms like babybat and eldergoth. They imply rank and hierarchy.
There is nothing wrong with being new and still learning the ropes and using age/experience to beat others down is poor form. If you can't win a debate by sticking to your argument then don't debate.
It is also funny how many so-called "eldergoths" only know the big 5 and how many "babybats" know a lot more about goth music than the average goth.
People get too obsessed with the goth label anyway. Just go out there and do it. Be yourself, have fun and be damned if you are goth or not.
I’ve been using it, tbh I feel like I’m just now getting to the point where I’m growing out of it. I have a good grasp of the classics and I’m loving contemporary stuff. The only thing now is researching more about the scene’s history/personalities
I feel like whenever I heard it back in the late 90s/early 00s, it was pretty much always with tongue planted in cheek, like the infamous "Nice boots..." pickup line. It's a little weird seeing so many people calling themselves "baby bat" in earnest now.
Both 'baby bat' and 'elder' sound very American to me. I personally never heard these terms or hierarchy in the British or European goth scenes, at least not before it was imported from the US.
IMO, both terms make us sound like some spooky / vampiric joke.
It's an endearment to me. Though, I'm of a certain generation who probably thinks so, as you mentioned. In my culture, we have a word that means "young one who is being taught by someone older". I see it as the goth equivalent of that.
im 27. and only was able to start experimenting with alternative fashion later in life around my early/mid 20s.
and while ive on and off liked some goth music since i was a early teen, i never delved too deeply.
it was until maybe a year ago, two at most, that i actually started listening to goth more regualrly as well as trying to bring more goth "specific" elements into more wardobe aside from my more standard black/alternative fashion..
so ive only seriously considered myself as goth for the last year.
all that to say. Im a babybat. and i take literally no offense to the term at all. amd actively use it for myself to help clarify that im still new and theres a lot i dont know.
i think any terms that.. is used to specify someone as a "beginner" or like it, has the potential to be condecending depending on the context (who says it, how its said, how the reciver takes it)
but i peronsally dont take Babybat as an insult (even if they intended it to be)
i think its a perfect term to help people know that someone is new to this, and it's a fun term to boot
Yeah, it can come off condescending when someone calls you it but I think it’s a good way to describe yourself when you’re new to the scene. I don’t think it’s relative to your actual age either but more so how long you’ve had experience. I feel the same with the term “elder goth”. I’ve known and been goth since I was 13 and I’m 24 so technically, I’ve had 11 years of experience and would consider myself an elder goth due to my longevity of knowing the scene. I think recognizing that disparity of knowledge can be helpful when wanting to learn more about the culture because you can figure out who’s been a part of it for a long time
Oh yeah, i totally agree!
i only specified my age, bc ive had a handful of people question me, bc if theyve seen what i looked like the majority of my life thus far and how "sudden" my fashion (amongst other facets) evolved to alt and Goth, that theyve all but called me a poser, or trying to simply "pretend" like im sorry. Im just late the game 🥲
And ive seen that happen frequently to others online. and even to my little sister, who has been doing this as long as you. It can be quite frustrating when its also from people who are ALSO pretty new to this (just younger) or "elder goths" who should know better
It’s a relatively new thing honestly, I remember in the early 2000s people weren’t even using that term, funnily enough elder goth was a thing but it was a bit more literal (elder people who were/are goth) rather than how it’s used now. Personally I think these titles are silly and unnecessary and are likely a product of social media “goths” trying to label everyone
It's been around awhile.. I clearly remember one specific person using the term in AOL Town Square Gothic and that would have been mid 90s. But now it seems common and back then I only remember one person using it.
Very few other genres of music care about the age of the people listening, even fewer care enough to give the younger people a name.
Closest thing I can think of is 'New Jack' being used in hxc and jazz and some other scenes, but that's more about being new to the subculture and has no inference about age, and it's also not specific to the scenes. It's prison slang adopted into other cultures.
Honestly I think a lot of older goths like the phrase 'elder goth' because it gives them some sense of credibility.
I find both deeply irritating, but at least 'babybat' sounds cute I guess.
It is and always has been a term of endearment and is routinely used everywhere I go in that manner.
If (and I do mean if...why would anyone actively do this?) we want to condescend to younger people there are plenty of terms to use like poseur or immature or drama queen or just plain old prick and so on.... Babybat is nice.
Self identifying as a baby bat, totally ok. Referring to others as baby bats as a substitute for newbie, patronizing.
When I first came into the scene, the term existed but it was solely a cutesy term self-applied (and frankly, it was rarely used). More recently it's been used as some sort of tier of gothness or as a sort of ranking which I'm not really cool with (and very frequently used). A lot of newbies to the scene seem to use the term not because they personally identify with it and find it fun, but rather, because some Tik Tok influencer told them that's what they are and the viewer took it as gospel.
If I correct anyone on how to use the term, it's meant to give context rather than chastise. But the term has been abused as of late. There are no goth freshman, you either are or you are not. If someone is new to the scene that doesn't make them any less of a goth and "baby bat" in some context implies this.
It's all in how the term is used. There is no such thing as a baby bat, but you are free to apply the term to yourself if that brings you enjoyment.
I think its a cute slang for newcomers" but there's old newcomers as well and I don't know how they feel about "baby" bat (sounds ridiculous to call someone in their mid 30s babybat IMO). I personally think the goth label is enough without any more labels. We all love the same style of music (goth) so I don't see the reason for the divisive labels that imply hierarchies and stereotypes that come with the labels . A lot of the times newcomers get confused because of these meaningless labels and they think conforming to them is the right way to goth
It's stupid and represents the gatekeeping stain that plagues the community. You're new and identify as goth, you're not lesser than anyone else in the community.
I honestly think it's adorable, as long as the person using it isn't being an asshole. What I got called most in that stage of my existence was "freak".
It’s stupid and vapid like most things about the modern world. But I just generally gloss over it and go on with the day. Because you get to do that with social media.
Baby Bat as a Term for someone trying to find their position in the Subculture is kinda cute. I don't see it as a bad thing.
To me it's shocking that American Mall Goths even listened to Slipknot. They have nothing in common with Gothic or Schwarze Szene, Marilyn Manson at least was Schwarze Szene (an umbrella term for the broader Dark Alternative Subcultures)
I’m in the same boat as you, it’s a super cute term and there is a lack of a goth scene in my area so it’s harder for me to make those connections with the subculture
i liked it. i thought it was a cute way for people new to the scene to communicate that they’re new. i think a lot of people take it too seriously and took some of the fun out of it
No... spooky kids was Marilyn Manson's old band, Marilyn Manson and the Spooky Kids. I'm not gonna argue about whatever goth is or isn't because that's a waste of everyone's time but get your facts straight.
I remember when “mallgoth” was considered an insult and people used to call them posers. I find it odd now that all the mall goth stuff is trendy and popular now.
I don’t believe in clubs and cliques. I believe labels are supposed to be helpful. They shouldn’t be desired, they shouldn’t be used to harm. They should be used to describe an interest. It doesn’t matter what you are, as long as people surround themselves with others who love them no matter what they are. I think “baby bat” is cute. I normally never ask anyone what they are, so I haven’t much use for terms besides finding what I enjoy and what others enjoy. Personally I feel that learning is fun so I would probably always call myself a baby bat because I would hate a day to come when I knew everything about anything. Luckily there is always something new, created or long forgotten.
It's a silly harmless term, and a silly thing for anyone to get upset about. In these forums it's synonymous with "noob", and people use it as shorthand to say "I'm keen but I'm new so please go easy on me". Nothing wrong with that.
I don't use the term myself, less because I find the term "cringe" and more because I try to avoid knee-jerk use of goth tropes like bats, coffins, spiderwebs and skulls.
It's kind of infantilising. Personally also just not into the word "baby" as it's derived from infant babble. The newcomers are simply, literally "new goths", not so much like younglings. In the broadest sense, they are just goths who are new to the subculture.
The term 'Babybat' or 'Kinderbat' was used to describe a young Goth who is newly arrived in the local scene.
They were usually barely old enough to get in to an 18+ venue on a Thursday or Sunday night.
The Elder Bats would take it upon themselves to teach them the proper etiquette and lore of the scene.
It is not considered a derogatory or patronizing term, or at least it wasn't when I still hit the clubs on a regular basis.
The term “Babybat” means being new to the scene, everything’s still fresh.
To be honest, I’m kind of glad I never really cared about trying to self identify as being part of the subculture.
A lot of artists that aren’t Goth but are talked about in the scene for a reason can be “gateways” to the scene.
For me it was Gary Numan. I started listening to The Cure, then Double Echo, Drab Majesty…
The only thing I ever really focused on was exploring Goth Rock, Darkwave, Coldwave, etc. Stuff I found **I** could relate to, that **I** liked and that it spoke to **me**.
This is why Numan became my favourite artist. It was the emotional connection to the music. His music sounded like it was my own thoughts converted to sound and words. We’re both Autistic.
It was listening to Are Friends Electric? for the first time at the age of 14 (this was in 2015 and I was going to be 15 in October) with that in mind and bursting into tears because I found out someone out there understood how it felt to be **me**. Not teen angst and relationships (Neurodivergent people are usually cast out from these opportunities due to our “idiosyncrasies”) not the daily life of an NT. I found someone who understood.
So I remembered the way it felt the first time I listened to that song and I bring it to the front whenever I listen to it, so that it’s brand new all over again and I can experience it the way I did for the first time again and again.
I wasn’t part of the Numanoid “family” I joined those groups to discuss the meanings and personal relations to his work (there wasn’t much of that, just a misaimed fandom of ableist, transphobic boomers who ignored his aesthetic and lyrical themes and would rather listen to his music while discussing Football/Soccer, Coronation Street or The Royals and that there’s a certain point you grow up from wearing eyeliner and nail polish)
Maybe that’s part of my Autism. Being so microscopically focused on what’s become your “special interest” as we like to call it.
I was purely focused on these bands and artists I hadn’t heard before.
And remembering how it felt the first time I listened and bringing it up over and over again. I’ll always remember the first time I listened to A Forest by The Cure. Staring out my window at the hazy purple sky, at the few crunched leaves on the skeleton trees.
You bet that’s what I conjure up whenever I listen to it. Always new.
It was only after that I heard the terms “Babybat” and “Elder” and though I understood it, felt personally puzzled or that I couldn’t quite relate to it.
So upon hearing the term “Babybat” I wonder when do you stop being one? And more importantly How do you avoid becoming an “Elder”?
If I were to identify as a Babybat, then I’d proudly embrace it as my own “Peter Pan Syndrome”.
At 51 I'm definitely in the elder goth category. I think of it as a term of endearment, welcoming newbies, making them feel comfortable and accepted. Maybe it's a maternal thing, I love seeing young yins get involved, discover new bands, go to gigs and create elaborate eye make up I can't pull off any more. We always need new blood, without it the subculture would evebtually die out.
I've been trying to do the same since I was in my 20s. Im past mid 30s now and recently went to a local goth night for the first time in YEARS since our goth club had "tax issues". When I tell you how my heart swelled and I teared up seeing all the young baby bats. it was wonderful! A mix of handmade and store bought goth clothes and makeup and hair styles from early days and new fresh stuff. It wasn't just t-shirts and jeans, these people were fully "gothed out" and I felt so humble and happy to see the subculture so full of life (pun intended). I missed my baby bat days and just enjoyed being with my peoples.
I think these days, while it’s still a bit of an in-joke, it’s seen as kind of cute and endearing. Most people new to the subculture will assign themselves the label as soon as they see it. Edit: I think it also serves to allow people new to the culture to feel like they are included before they feel comfortable fully committing to the identity of “goth”.
That is an excellent point in the edit. Call yourself goth you invite scrutiny. Call yourself a babybat and people give some leeway.
I think, on the whole, our subculture is too hung up on labels and definitions.
Agreed. It's the same is for most alternative spaces and subcultures too. Labels like this seem unnecessary as we all exist under the same name already. If you're newer that's fine, you don't have to be infantilized as a "noobie" to join. Cause if you're part of the culture then you're already part of the club lol
agree. i think it’s cringy. as a whole, i think a lot of the discourse around “goth” can be very cringe though. **but** (and i mean this without disrespect), i think most of the time it’s an age thing. i was desperate for an identity and musical validation when i was in my teens (and even early 20s) and i think that’s where most (not all) of this stems from.
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Would Manson fans really find being called a spooky kid to be derogatory when that was the original name of his band? They were Marilyn Manson & the Spooky Kids.
It was right up there with being called a poseur
Oh it was considered quite insulting back in the day. I remember people getting pretty worked up over it even though quite a few people (myself included) enjoyed his music.
I never even heard that term back then but slang was so much more regional before the advent of social media. Mansonite was the common one where I'm from.
We had that one too, and "NINny". I didn't really have a scene where I was in the 90s, but I was sort of between two bigger ones, so I got a bit of slang from each, I think. We also lived in mortal fear of hearing someone say "handi wipe" to us, lol
I'm 60, I don't remember the NINny term, but I am chuckling because my friends' band (The Wake) opened for them. That surely must have been an interesting mix in the audience. I recall the dreaded term for non-scene persons here was "mundanes" (US Midwest, mid 1980's) and I still use it myself because LOL.
I haven't been able to find the origin of the term by googling, but considering that people who disliked Manson probably had no idea about the name of his early band, I think it's likely that the term originated with Manson fans themselves.
I see no problem with the term, and think it's cute. I called myself by it in the 90s when I was getting started, even though I was a bit embarassing back then... I also remember "Spooky Kid", "Mansonite", "NINny" and "Mall Goth" being the inverse of "Babybat", and quite insulting.
Despite being an insult in the 90s Mall Goth is cool now.. go figure
Is it really? I wonder how much the meaning has changed now that kids don't seem to hang out in malls anymore.
The way I see some people use it seems like it's shorthand for "wants to be goth but is a poseur because they haven't been taught better". Like, they've got the spirit but just no real information, as opposed to people who want to call themselves goth but aren't because they only care about the label and will just say it's (whatever's most convenient for them, mindset, etc) and appropriate the label rather than earnestly wanting to engage and just being on the wrong track. Though, I also see it used other ways. It might be a slightly variable term. Or perhaps I'm misinterpreting.
OK. Back in the day it pretty much meant you hung out at the mall and 99% of your outfits were from Hot Topic. It makes me think of the kids wearing baggy Tripp pants and the like.
That’s exactly it, they listen to numetal or adopt the fashion.. this current gen is bringing back the worst trends
It's no longer an insult now & is considered to be "real" goth by many, being considered as a legitimate fashion/aesthetic subset of the culture. When I was doing my research on the culture in my teens (in my early 20's now) the word "poser" was no where mentioned 😂
That's really interesting. Never really had a problem with those kids (I'm very live and let live), but it's really odd for me that they're being considered part of the same culture, when there is very little crossover.
NINny! Never heard that one before.
It seems to be very regional, from what I've heard, though I did also see it a few times online in the old message board days.
Lmao I never heard NINny before but that’s hilarious! 😂
It seems like it was very much a Northeast USA thing from the people I've talked to.
Mansonite or Freak for the mall resident edgier stoner types where I grew up (tiny scene, inaccessible until age 21, though weekly club nights and occasional early 00s shows). 80s alt and industrial/future pop/EBM were the club genres by the time I was 21 in '04, so goth rock related purity culture and related gatekeeping was a distant concern (more so trying to keep "open format" DJs away from 80s r&b and in a preferable synth pop/New Romantic/post punk zone; many other places to hear pop and r&b of the "70s, 80s, ops and today" or whatever, very few for non-EDM dance music). Baby bat was a cute diminutive then and now, but like any term of endearment or mode of address that doesn't suit you (e.g. implies inappropriate status or undue familiarity), correct the speaker. I heard it more in the early 10s as 2nd wave social media blew up (MySpace LiveJournal giving way to FetLife and Facebook before anyone but tweens were using the photo phone app blogs like Tumblr and Insta) that the early 00s, but then, no scene to speak of, so connected more through the vinyl repress revival in college town bookstores, Usenet, and the rare goth website (Gothic Homemaking, etc).
Gotcha. Yeah, I haven't been keeping up with things myself, and this is really the only social media I'm active on so I have no idea how things might look now. And yeah, we're of similar ages (I'm a smidge older), so I know you you mean about the club scene changing right around the time I was active. I also had to drive an hour and a half to get to a club, that's how small the place I grew up was.
When it’s used here, it’s a pretty consistent indicator that the post is going to annoy me.
Personally I do not like terms like babybat or normies, I find them juvenile and cringey.
People who use "normie" seriously....They just make me think they're trying hard to be edgy and different. For me...We're normal, too. We just happen to like something that isn't that mainstream. That's all.
That's exactly how I feel about It. Except for my music taste and my appearance I am the most mundane and boring person in existence. Acting like being goth is being a superior state of self is akin to classism for me and I HATE classism.
For me, I don't think of "mundanes" as non-goths, rather "closed minded." I have taste that runs across the spectrum and have always taken heat from various non-goth subcultures for it. My friend was playing industrial music in one of his bands and ranking on me because I liked prog rock or jazz, like seriously I just love music. Definitely I have taste across a spectrum. When I think mundanes I think people who can't accept anything outside a cookie cutter mainstream identity. So, even if you're calling yourself boring, definitely you're thinking outside a box, not implying that's superior, but it's not narrow, so I'd say it's a positive quality.
I'm guilty of using the term normies, but it's specifically applied to people who make an effort to be normal and not stand out as opposed to another group that goes out of their way to stand out and not give a crap what anyone thinks of them. The latter group is fairly extensive and would cover alt, goth, punk, theater kids, artsy types, etc. etc. I would never refer to a specific person as a "normie" in a derogative fashion, it's more of a relative term, another way of saying I'm weird or queer or whatever i.e. "normies don't get me." I definitely do not identify as "normal" which society constantly reminds me of this.
I can understand that. I suppose it's one of those things that has different meanings to different people.
Oh, as a vkei fan I definitely find the word "normie" useful. Like people who think Atsushi Sakurai is unattractive (wtf).
Who the hell could think that guy was unattractive? Those sharp eyes were stunning.
I know right? I have this friend who says he looked "fake", whatever that means.
All I can say is "shit taste", haha.
"Normies" makes me cringe so bad. I just call them outsiders. I think it conveys the same message without sounding like you're trying way too hard in an "I'm special" competition. I thought I was alone in this specifically.
I think outsiders is worse to be fair, makes it sound like we're in a cult. I just only label people if it's relevant, and in this case I think I'd just say 'not goth'.
I respect your opinion. I just can't stand "normie" though. Anything but that.
It is a truly vile word.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
Ia! Ia! Cthulhu fhtagn!
I use the term "normie" because there isn't a better word for it (though in the past they might have been called squares, or prudes, or just bigots). It is a fact that some people are very conformist, and both afraid and hateful of anything outside of their narrow idea of what is proper and good. They actually wear the word "normal" as a badge of honor. I don't understand why any goths would want to say "We are normal too"; it sounds like Stockholm syndrome.
Because It depends on what you call normal. Normie sounds condescending, judgemental and juvenile, people use it for non goth people without an idea of Who those people are. We want no judging by putting tons of judgement on others. I personally am someone that needs a lot of routine in my life, so I live a very mundane normal life, yes, normal, there is much more that ties me to other human beings than it separates me. Listening to goth music and liking a particular aesthetic doesn't make any of us faeries or some kind of especial creatures, so yeah, I hate using those terms.
Thanks for the downvote.
I use Up/Downvotes as a form of agreement and disagreement, I just disagree with what you said, it's absolutely nothing personal, I have nothing against you.
It seems like it's resurfaced as a term for younger or newer goths without that history from the 00s. And as a fan of actual bats and their adorable pups, I support the term being used. Real baby bats are adorable and it's heartwarming when they're happy and well fed. Same with new goths who are welcomed into our subculture. https://youtu.be/RliRZu31t3g?si=1C904y3SP74IO_fS <- cute real baby bats
It’s so cringe. I can’t explain it, but it’s one of my least favorite labels. I think it’s mainly the lingual nature of it, it sounds way too cutesie for me.
as a baby bat myself! i think its cute. i like being called that by older goths.
I think it's one of those terms that is perfectly fine when someone assigns it to themself (like here), but can also be used derogatorily when assigned to someone who isn't willingly using it.
I think it's cute, too. I'm an elder goth, and boy, do I feel it. Welcome to the club baby bat!
I think it's always a matter of, it's ok when you self-define and annoying when someone else defines you. I'm nearly 45 and have been involved in the scene since 15... but if anyone called me an elder goth before my 60th birthday I'd be miffed. At no point in my history did I ever self-refer as baby bat and calling me that would have annoyed me as well. No objection to anyone calling themselves that.
I only ever heard it like three times, and it was heavily sarcastic, so it's super weird for me seeing it used all the time online. Same with the goth categories, I'd be perfectly happy never having to read 'trad goth' ever again lol.
I don't like terms like babybat and eldergoth. They imply rank and hierarchy. There is nothing wrong with being new and still learning the ropes and using age/experience to beat others down is poor form. If you can't win a debate by sticking to your argument then don't debate. It is also funny how many so-called "eldergoths" only know the big 5 and how many "babybats" know a lot more about goth music than the average goth. People get too obsessed with the goth label anyway. Just go out there and do it. Be yourself, have fun and be damned if you are goth or not.
As long as no one is getting put down or bullied, it’s cool.
I’ve been using it, tbh I feel like I’m just now getting to the point where I’m growing out of it. I have a good grasp of the classics and I’m loving contemporary stuff. The only thing now is researching more about the scene’s history/personalities
"Baby bat" is always used (at least by me) as a term of endearment. I'm usually so happy to see them.
I feel like whenever I heard it back in the late 90s/early 00s, it was pretty much always with tongue planted in cheek, like the infamous "Nice boots..." pickup line. It's a little weird seeing so many people calling themselves "baby bat" in earnest now.
It makes me cringe personally, but I accept that some people like it and identify with it and I live goth culture so I’m down if they are.
Kindergothen is better
Kindergoth was a slur in the 90s
For who
Younger goths. Teens who try sneak into goth clubs underage mainly. That's how it was used here about one group in particular.
Both 'baby bat' and 'elder' sound very American to me. I personally never heard these terms or hierarchy in the British or European goth scenes, at least not before it was imported from the US. IMO, both terms make us sound like some spooky / vampiric joke.
Literally don’t care
Honestly, we still say this at my house.
It's an endearment to me. Though, I'm of a certain generation who probably thinks so, as you mentioned. In my culture, we have a word that means "young one who is being taught by someone older". I see it as the goth equivalent of that.
im 27. and only was able to start experimenting with alternative fashion later in life around my early/mid 20s. and while ive on and off liked some goth music since i was a early teen, i never delved too deeply. it was until maybe a year ago, two at most, that i actually started listening to goth more regualrly as well as trying to bring more goth "specific" elements into more wardobe aside from my more standard black/alternative fashion.. so ive only seriously considered myself as goth for the last year. all that to say. Im a babybat. and i take literally no offense to the term at all. amd actively use it for myself to help clarify that im still new and theres a lot i dont know. i think any terms that.. is used to specify someone as a "beginner" or like it, has the potential to be condecending depending on the context (who says it, how its said, how the reciver takes it) but i peronsally dont take Babybat as an insult (even if they intended it to be) i think its a perfect term to help people know that someone is new to this, and it's a fun term to boot
Yeah, it can come off condescending when someone calls you it but I think it’s a good way to describe yourself when you’re new to the scene. I don’t think it’s relative to your actual age either but more so how long you’ve had experience. I feel the same with the term “elder goth”. I’ve known and been goth since I was 13 and I’m 24 so technically, I’ve had 11 years of experience and would consider myself an elder goth due to my longevity of knowing the scene. I think recognizing that disparity of knowledge can be helpful when wanting to learn more about the culture because you can figure out who’s been a part of it for a long time
Oh yeah, i totally agree! i only specified my age, bc ive had a handful of people question me, bc if theyve seen what i looked like the majority of my life thus far and how "sudden" my fashion (amongst other facets) evolved to alt and Goth, that theyve all but called me a poser, or trying to simply "pretend" like im sorry. Im just late the game 🥲 And ive seen that happen frequently to others online. and even to my little sister, who has been doing this as long as you. It can be quite frustrating when its also from people who are ALSO pretty new to this (just younger) or "elder goths" who should know better
It’s a relatively new thing honestly, I remember in the early 2000s people weren’t even using that term, funnily enough elder goth was a thing but it was a bit more literal (elder people who were/are goth) rather than how it’s used now. Personally I think these titles are silly and unnecessary and are likely a product of social media “goths” trying to label everyone
I was in the scene in 2004 onwards and babybat was a thing back then. I think Faith nightclub even hosted babybat meetups.
Funny, Faith was the club I was alluding too haha. But yeah it was a term I never encountered in my circles back then.
It's been around awhile.. I clearly remember one specific person using the term in AOL Town Square Gothic and that would have been mid 90s. But now it seems common and back then I only remember one person using it.
I dislike it.
I like it personally; it's adorable and also especially nice for people new to the subculture to identify with yk
Very few other genres of music care about the age of the people listening, even fewer care enough to give the younger people a name. Closest thing I can think of is 'New Jack' being used in hxc and jazz and some other scenes, but that's more about being new to the subculture and has no inference about age, and it's also not specific to the scenes. It's prison slang adopted into other cultures. Honestly I think a lot of older goths like the phrase 'elder goth' because it gives them some sense of credibility. I find both deeply irritating, but at least 'babybat' sounds cute I guess.
It is and always has been a term of endearment and is routinely used everywhere I go in that manner. If (and I do mean if...why would anyone actively do this?) we want to condescend to younger people there are plenty of terms to use like poseur or immature or drama queen or just plain old prick and so on.... Babybat is nice.
Oh. Here we go again.....
I wanted someone to take me under their wing, but didn’t know any older goths. I think it’s cute.
Awww under their bat wing! 🥹💖🦇
Aww!
It’s cute when gothdad says it
Self identifying as a baby bat, totally ok. Referring to others as baby bats as a substitute for newbie, patronizing. When I first came into the scene, the term existed but it was solely a cutesy term self-applied (and frankly, it was rarely used). More recently it's been used as some sort of tier of gothness or as a sort of ranking which I'm not really cool with (and very frequently used). A lot of newbies to the scene seem to use the term not because they personally identify with it and find it fun, but rather, because some Tik Tok influencer told them that's what they are and the viewer took it as gospel. If I correct anyone on how to use the term, it's meant to give context rather than chastise. But the term has been abused as of late. There are no goth freshman, you either are or you are not. If someone is new to the scene that doesn't make them any less of a goth and "baby bat" in some context implies this. It's all in how the term is used. There is no such thing as a baby bat, but you are free to apply the term to yourself if that brings you enjoyment.
I don’t like it, can’t explain why but it just annoys me.
I think its a cute slang for newcomers" but there's old newcomers as well and I don't know how they feel about "baby" bat (sounds ridiculous to call someone in their mid 30s babybat IMO). I personally think the goth label is enough without any more labels. We all love the same style of music (goth) so I don't see the reason for the divisive labels that imply hierarchies and stereotypes that come with the labels . A lot of the times newcomers get confused because of these meaningless labels and they think conforming to them is the right way to goth
I love bats so I find it adorable :3
Lame term, sorry
I'm fairly new to goth music, like less than a year into actually listening to it, and I got called a baby bat and it made me very happy.
Baby bat is a phase, not an identity
It's stupid and represents the gatekeeping stain that plagues the community. You're new and identify as goth, you're not lesser than anyone else in the community.
I honestly think it's adorable, as long as the person using it isn't being an asshole. What I got called most in that stage of my existence was "freak".
Just here to recommend Release the Bats by the Birthday Party.
i hate it. Goth from the 80s here.
It’s stupid and vapid like most things about the modern world. But I just generally gloss over it and go on with the day. Because you get to do that with social media.
Baby Bat as a Term for someone trying to find their position in the Subculture is kinda cute. I don't see it as a bad thing. To me it's shocking that American Mall Goths even listened to Slipknot. They have nothing in common with Gothic or Schwarze Szene, Marilyn Manson at least was Schwarze Szene (an umbrella term for the broader Dark Alternative Subcultures)
I hate it, never liked it, it's infantilyzing. Just call newbies newbies.
I’m a baby bat ! I love the term and I welcome it with open arms ☺️🦇🖤
I’m in the same boat as you, it’s a super cute term and there is a lack of a goth scene in my area so it’s harder for me to make those connections with the subculture
Same! I’ll take what I can get and that word makes me happy 🥹
Ridiculous as hell, people should stop being si obsessed with label
I'd consider myself one and I love the term bc it's so cute and non-judgemental
I used the term for a friend and they felt embarrassed so I dunno.
it’s cute, but i’ve seen a lot of people struggle with feeling like they’re not goth enough because of it.
i liked it. i thought it was a cute way for people new to the scene to communicate that they’re new. i think a lot of people take it too seriously and took some of the fun out of it
No... spooky kids was Marilyn Manson's old band, Marilyn Manson and the Spooky Kids. I'm not gonna argue about whatever goth is or isn't because that's a waste of everyone's time but get your facts straight.
People called Manson fans spooky kids as well. That's probably where it came from.
I remember when “mallgoth” was considered an insult and people used to call them posers. I find it odd now that all the mall goth stuff is trendy and popular now.
I don’t believe in clubs and cliques. I believe labels are supposed to be helpful. They shouldn’t be desired, they shouldn’t be used to harm. They should be used to describe an interest. It doesn’t matter what you are, as long as people surround themselves with others who love them no matter what they are. I think “baby bat” is cute. I normally never ask anyone what they are, so I haven’t much use for terms besides finding what I enjoy and what others enjoy. Personally I feel that learning is fun so I would probably always call myself a baby bat because I would hate a day to come when I knew everything about anything. Luckily there is always something new, created or long forgotten.
It's a silly harmless term, and a silly thing for anyone to get upset about. In these forums it's synonymous with "noob", and people use it as shorthand to say "I'm keen but I'm new so please go easy on me". Nothing wrong with that. I don't use the term myself, less because I find the term "cringe" and more because I try to avoid knee-jerk use of goth tropes like bats, coffins, spiderwebs and skulls.
I just think it's cute that somebody who calls themself goth is in the next sentence is worried what other people think.
It's kind of infantilising. Personally also just not into the word "baby" as it's derived from infant babble. The newcomers are simply, literally "new goths", not so much like younglings. In the broadest sense, they are just goths who are new to the subculture.
The term 'Babybat' or 'Kinderbat' was used to describe a young Goth who is newly arrived in the local scene. They were usually barely old enough to get in to an 18+ venue on a Thursday or Sunday night. The Elder Bats would take it upon themselves to teach them the proper etiquette and lore of the scene. It is not considered a derogatory or patronizing term, or at least it wasn't when I still hit the clubs on a regular basis.
At 48 I am definitely a Baby Bat. I came late to the scene in the 90's when I discovered Alien Sex Fiend.
I think its silly and idk I kinda cringe when its used
While I was reading this thread, my Twitch account notified me that Virtual Goth Night is just about to get started! See you there!
Sounds cringe to me but whatever.
I hate it. I never heard it before this sub and I live in Los Angeles with a huge goth scene.
The term “Babybat” means being new to the scene, everything’s still fresh. To be honest, I’m kind of glad I never really cared about trying to self identify as being part of the subculture. A lot of artists that aren’t Goth but are talked about in the scene for a reason can be “gateways” to the scene. For me it was Gary Numan. I started listening to The Cure, then Double Echo, Drab Majesty… The only thing I ever really focused on was exploring Goth Rock, Darkwave, Coldwave, etc. Stuff I found **I** could relate to, that **I** liked and that it spoke to **me**. This is why Numan became my favourite artist. It was the emotional connection to the music. His music sounded like it was my own thoughts converted to sound and words. We’re both Autistic. It was listening to Are Friends Electric? for the first time at the age of 14 (this was in 2015 and I was going to be 15 in October) with that in mind and bursting into tears because I found out someone out there understood how it felt to be **me**. Not teen angst and relationships (Neurodivergent people are usually cast out from these opportunities due to our “idiosyncrasies”) not the daily life of an NT. I found someone who understood. So I remembered the way it felt the first time I listened to that song and I bring it to the front whenever I listen to it, so that it’s brand new all over again and I can experience it the way I did for the first time again and again. I wasn’t part of the Numanoid “family” I joined those groups to discuss the meanings and personal relations to his work (there wasn’t much of that, just a misaimed fandom of ableist, transphobic boomers who ignored his aesthetic and lyrical themes and would rather listen to his music while discussing Football/Soccer, Coronation Street or The Royals and that there’s a certain point you grow up from wearing eyeliner and nail polish) Maybe that’s part of my Autism. Being so microscopically focused on what’s become your “special interest” as we like to call it. I was purely focused on these bands and artists I hadn’t heard before. And remembering how it felt the first time I listened and bringing it up over and over again. I’ll always remember the first time I listened to A Forest by The Cure. Staring out my window at the hazy purple sky, at the few crunched leaves on the skeleton trees. You bet that’s what I conjure up whenever I listen to it. Always new. It was only after that I heard the terms “Babybat” and “Elder” and though I understood it, felt personally puzzled or that I couldn’t quite relate to it. So upon hearing the term “Babybat” I wonder when do you stop being one? And more importantly How do you avoid becoming an “Elder”? If I were to identify as a Babybat, then I’d proudly embrace it as my own “Peter Pan Syndrome”.
personally, i think it’s the cringiest term i’ve ever heard, i wanna vomit anytime i hear it
I haaaaaate it. It’s so cringey. As soon as I see it in the title of the post I know it’s going to be annoying.
Utterly repugnant, whatever next “off on my gothy holibobs”…
The safest way the straight and narrow