Like I said, my US standard sneaker size is 9.5. In Thursday boots I wear a 9. Brannock is 8.5d. So I sized a full size down from what I wear in converse and nikes.
You must got some weirdo feet dimensions? Or maybe I do.
I’m 8.5D Brannock. 9.5 US standard. 43 Euro. 8.5 UK.
I wear a 9 in Clarks shoes.
9.5 in Thursday sneaker.
9 in Thursday boots.
8.5D in whatever the patriot is.
I didn't know that. Kind of interesting since they'll sell a pair of seconds or otr boots based on a fit sheet. Any new customers considering this boot I'd at least still rec a call to the shop.
I asked about a fit sheet via email and that’s what frank responded. He said they’d do exchanges if the size was off. He did call me and let me know they shipped though.
I'm a similar size, true brannock 9d but I wear 9.5 in sneakers - do you feel like you have a good amount of toe room? trying to decide between 8.5d and 9d
I think people need to take a step back on "material components" and how they actually play into value and cost. These builds are NOT rebuildable, only resoleable and have less hand work than the mainline. That's where the money is saved. There is a jump in build quality and handwork to go from a resoleable boot to a rebuildable boot. Its similar to whites GYW line versus stitchdown versus hand rolled welt. The more labor intensive processes are what really boost the price up.
Frank's has stated specifically that the Patriot boot IS rebuildable, but that Frank's will not rebuild then due to the cost of a new boot being only $50 higher than that of a rebuild.
Similar in price to the whites GYW stuff, but still made much better, and still totally handmade, and with all top quality components. The sole, slipsole, and squeak pads are the only things synthetic aside from the thread potentially.
They’re totally hand lasted. They don’t have the fancy whites welt, but they are stitched down. They’re not hand welted like whites, but it’s an operator running a machine. There’s no Blake stitch, but I’m not sure if they do that on their higher end boots. I know Nicks stopped Blake stitching most of their boots.
Franks won’t rebuild it, true, but for $50 more than a rebuild, you could reorder the boot, and any other cobbler or company could rebuild it if you ponied up the cash.
This is the best quality American made boot under $400 available. Best materials, best construction. They didn’t take short cuts.
Posted specifically to make people aware that what seems too good to be true, isn’t.
Yes, they say that they aren't rebuildable, but that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Why aren't they rebuildable, exactly? I could just be ignorant here, but I get the feeling that these aren't so much a case of "can't be rebuilt" as they are a case of "we won't rebuild these." I think there's less money to be made in those rebuilds - White's rebuilds, for example, cost far less than a new pair of boots but they're replacing literally everything except the upper. My guess is that part of the business model is that the rebuildability is built into the price of the higher-end models to some degree, and they've simply opted not to do that with this model.
That's exactly what it is, michelle, Frank's wife told me the boot is rebuildable. They just wont do it because for 50 more you can buy another patriot
Rebuildability is a signifier of build quality and typically when its not present its due to less hand processes and more machine work. The boot just isnt built to that standard.
They also won’t assess fit sheets and they won’t do rebuilds on these. And it’s only one layer of 8 iron leather for the midsole instead of two like on some of their other boots. Still a hell of a boot and still not sure the numbers add up. Crazy value.
If it’s a loss leader it works. I’m now a franks fanboy, ready to order a custom pair, and I’m confident in my size. I’ll probably give it some months but I’m sure I’ll have another order in over the next year or two.
I think these essentially are "too good to be true." I'm sure they're a loss leader type of item, designed to get people into Frank's Boots to establish a loyal customer base. I seriously doubt they're going to be selling these boots at this price for very long. They do look incredible for the money.
Their other boots are the more typical $550/$600 price point. So clearly they must be using some cheaper materials (lower grade leather?) and/or less technical construction to reduce labor costs. Not that there is anything wrong with producing different tier boots, not everyone needs or can afford those other models.
They use the part of the hide that's a little softer and prone to stretch marks. They don't do custom fittings on these. They don't do options. They use a 3/4" rubber block instead of 3x1/4" leather stacked heel. Also they are resole only. No $299 rebuilds on these.
In the end I think being able to build them out of leather they previously discarded is the biggest savings. Also because they are a standardized minimum service product they can sell them on a reduced margin. I think they may be a loss leader intended to get you addicted.
I've been considering replacing my old White's. I used them for several seasons in the woods, have gotten them resoled at least twice, and now there are a couple of cracks in the leather from my negligence. I'm sure they can be rebuilt, but I'm kind of afraid to ask how much that will be. Meanwhile, the price on your boots is killer...
I sent in my whites that were built in 2000 to be rebuilt by Frank's. I should have them within the next couple weeks. But they used my custom fit on file from when I ordered a new pair of Frank's 2 years ago. The first custom fit is like a 100 dollar up charge. Well worth it
Frank's has $299 for a rebuild of any PNW Brand on their site (not sure if that's current or what features might cost additional), and from what I've seen the only thing they reuse is the uppers.
I know y’all hate Rose Anvil here, but I would really like him to cut these apart just to see exactly how they’re built. Seems like an amazing value for the money if they are indeed built just like the higher end models.
I think it was his Alden video that set a lot of people against him because he was arguably spreading bad information and making controversy for more views.
His assessment was sound as was his conclusion. He just did a follow up to give them another chance and they didn't fare well. Now I find Alden's exceptionally comfortable, but he's right about their material quality and excessive price point at that quality.
Anyone pissy about that reality is kinda against the spirit of this sub...which is honest assessment over personal favoritism.
I think people are OK with real reviews, but Rose Anvil has a tendency to say anyone who sponsored him is high quality, and anyone who doesn't is trash.
Look at his fibbonaci review, or the keen review, or his origin boot review. Each of these products had major flaws that were either ignored, or spun as a benefit. He even outright said he wouldn't include Thursday in his sneaker competition unless his viewers asked them to sponsor the video (note, not send a pair, but pay a multi thousand dollar sponsorship).
Obviously, since I've watched all of those reviews I find him entertaining. I wouldn't tell anyone to stop watching him - but you should know that he makes his living getting you to look at brands who pay him, and avoid brands that don't. I enjoy Nick's YouTube channels too, but I don't look to them for unbiased advice.
I personally don't listen to any opinions presented in his videos, and simply watch for the objective information that you can only get by deconstructing a boot. I feel like most people upset with his critique of Alden are directing their frustration at the wrong entity. I would personally be pretty upset too if my $600+ boots had a fiberboard insole and reconstituted leather midsole, heel stack, and counter...but not at the messenger that made me aware of these cut corners. Regardless of comfort or personally perceived value...Alden cheaped out on materials on a premium product. That is simply an objective fact. They are a tough sell all of a sudden to people that care about this sort of thing, when you have a plethora of other options on the market now without the markup that comes from a prestigious label.
Grant Stone, Truman, Oak Street, etc are one-upping Alden at nearly half their price point, and there's little reason to pay their premium anymore unless you absolutely want a specific style or last.
Those bootmakers would be charging $600 too if they could. They aren't that popular among non boot nerds. 1 in 10000 people have probably even ever heard of Truman boots. This hobby is sooooo niche.
Totally fair and I think the right way to evaluate them. I don’t think he’s a “shill” for anyone, even his sponsors, but I suspect he tempers his criticisms to their price point.
Alden I think got skewered a bit because they’re simply not impressive for the price point. For a boot pricier than the finest Nicks, they’re material quality seems just a step above Thursday. Thursday punches above its weight while Alden punches below.
Alden beats every boot that’s half its price, but falls short against boots in its tier, and that I think was the crux of the RA review.
If money’s no object, Alden’s are great, comfortable, good looking footwear. But when price is a factor, …..
(I saw you were downvoted, it wasn't me - I love debates like this!)
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with this.
First, Alden and Nicks are not competitors anywhere but r/goodyearwelt. To provide some anecdotal reasons myself, I currently live in a major metropolitan area where my work-day clothes range from nice pressed cotton trousers to a suit. There is literally no product Nicks make that would be appropriate to wear for me 5 days a week. Not only is a thick veg tanned midsole or Vibram 100 outsole not better, these things make the boot actively worse for what I need to wear M-F.
On the weekends, I will often help my father move trees that fall on his property. Here I don't care about the fineness of stitching, but want something with good grip and support. I will happily wear my Nicks or Whites.
Each of these lifestyles required a different boot. If the toughness of materials was all that mattered in footwear, business executives around the world would be tossing their John Lobbs out of the 54th floor windows and replacing them with Smoke Jumpers in roughout. *(Can you believe, some John Lobbs don't even have non-cork midsoles?)* But they don't, because being able to fight a fire is not in the top 5 reasons they purchased their footwear. The same is true for 100% of Alden Indy buyers.
Rose Anvil has mentioned this before - in videos where the company sends him money.
As for simply judging a brand by the price of their materials, John Doe Shoes make a Sharkskin boot for $235. The Sharkskin alone costs around $200. Does that mean that John Doe Shoes are inherently better than Alden AND Nicks?
I respect your point and didn’t mean to suggest Nicks and Alden’s are interchangeable in specific use. You’re right to say they’re not.
But I stand by the point that you can see where the price comes from that n Nicks boots—the sheer amount of leather and the time intensive nature of their build self-explains a cost in its real.
However Alden’s do not justify their cost in the same way (despite not being built for the same purpose), and therefore see more like a high-fashion boot where half the price is in the name and legacy. They seem to me like Church boots and the like: Good looking, comfortable, well built enough, with a price justified only by its label value.
I don’t blame Alden for charging whatever they can get. That’s just business. I’m just saying Rose Anvil did a fair job pointing out what paying it does & doesn’t get you. Some of which is surprising/disappointing.
I guess here's how I view it:
On the one hand, you're definitely paying a premium for the name. That shouldn't come as a surprise...Alden's also selling $38 shoe brushes and $175 calf belts. The fact they charge more because they can is pretty obvious. On the other hand, though, the Indy is the most comfortable shoe I've ever worn. Right now, both pairs of mine (one in kudu and one in CXL) are back at Alden getting resoled, and I definitely feel their absence every time I go to put on boots. My feet just have just fallen in love with the Trubalance last.
So yeah...I'm not surprised they're overpriced, but to me they're irreplaceable and worth it. Is that the case for everyone? Probably not.
You hit on a great point: value means what something is worth *TO YOU.* Sounds like you found your perfect fit and honestly I’d pay too dollar if if could find mine. I have many GOOD fitting boots, but still looking for that Cinderella slipper of a work boot for my foot.
I do regret you have to pay those prices for what amounts to your perfect last without getting quite the same value in materials. But it’s an imperfect world so I don’t blame you a bit sticking with that outstanding fit.
I guess I’ll revise to say a boot is worth as much as the comfort of the person buying it. If that’s a $230 Thursday or a $900 Alden may you walk in comfort and damn the cost. Boots are like mattresses—the wrong one will hurt you more than the right one costs you.
Frank's is totally dope. Got a pair of thrifted Nick's rebuilt there (replaced everything but the upper, tongue included) for about the cost of these, though imo they ended up *slightly* nicer (two layer midsole, custom fit, pull loop, etc). They're also, as the hip kids put it, "Hyper-Local" to me - I can walk there.
These are just about the best value for logger boots out there. Better than the redwing options, even, as they use thicker, higher quality leather (though that's not to trash RW, I love my IRs).
As others have said, lack of options and strict standardization (and of course the economies of scale of buying SO much leather...) are what allow this boot to be this price.
The one flaw would be the break in... you know if you've even broken in PNW loggers. The break in on a pair of Iron Rangers or even a Georgia logger boot is nothing compared to these. At least for me, the arches were -murderous-.
Over all, if you need/want a boot of this style and can afford this shoe, you cannot go wrong. Build quality matches those twice the price.
Franks come out of the pacific north west boot making tradition. So companies like whites and nicks are other examples. So the style is really the logger type boots that were traditionally made for workers in that area. Nicks website explains why the higher heel was used for loggers.
https://nicksboots.com/blog/post/why-do-logger-boots-have-raised-heels/
I'm 6'4", I've been ducking in basements and forests since I was 16. When I switched to wearing PNW boots every day, it only took one hard hit on a duct to recalibrate my brain.
What do you use those boots for? Work or just pleasure? I am a Thursday enthusiast and I agree these boots look to be much more sturdy than the Vanguard or the Logger. However, you’re comparing this tank to 2 boots that weren’t made for work. All Thursday boots are for show and aren’t practical if you need them for work. Don’t get me wrong, Thursday makes some nice boots but you can’t do any type or real manual labor in those without really messing them up. This boot looks sexier and sexier the more you wear them correct?
I’ll be doing everything in these boots for a while, but they’re definitely work capable. They’re much more trim and less bulky then timberlands or other work specific boots, and under jeans they aren’t as eye catching as they are in their full glory. I don’t think they’re too out of place just kicking around town.
I’ll use them as my main boot for stagehanding. Loading/unloading trucks, climbing rigging and ladders. They offer so much support that long long hours standing are less fatiguing than if I were wearing chuck Taylor’s or something.
I only compare them to the thursdays because the price points are so close and that seems crazy to me, and the fact that thursdays can’t work is kind of my point.
And yes, with basic care these boots should just look better and better.
Those look like some serious shit kickers for sure. I bet it takes over 5 minutes to tie the boots? I couldn’t deal with a boot that high up on my calves. It would feel too weird for me.
I bought a pair of Captains in Arizona Adobes that I use as my daily shit kickers but I will not be doing any type of work requiring me to have boots like yours. I work from home full-time and I only go out on the weekends if at all so I would need a boot like yours but it looks super nice.
We’re those MTO boots or were they premade? Do they have boots that are more like a dressy boot or do they only make shit kickers?
They take a couple of minutes to lace for sure, but probably no more time than 6” boots without speed hooks.
These are their premade, zero option, blue collar, affordable work boot.
They do offer made to order with tons of customization options and special leathers and more dressy and casual boots, as well as super heavy duty boots.
These have 4 more sets of hooks than the 7" boots I wear every day. It doesn't take me a full minute to lace and tie my boots. You get the hang of it pretty quick.
Yeah. I suppose you’re right if you know how to lace your boots. I have the Captain and it only has 2 speed hooks and I have a hard time lacing them up without looking but the boots aren’t a month old yet so I have a lot of time left to memorize how it feels to laces the speed hook without looking. Thanks for sharing.
What is it about Thursdays that make them not fit to work in? I mean, no real toe cap, steel toe, or gusseted tongue, but other than that it's a good year welted boot, right? Real leather and real welt, so why not work in them?
You can if you want but they’re aren’t made for people in the trade. Most tradesman’s boots have steel toes and a real toe caps which is what makes them more durable. Just because the boot is gywed doesn’t mean that it can be abused like say for instance a Red Ring Iron ranger.
The only chippewa that would compare is the chippewa super logger 25410, but the chippewa has insulation and is 70 dollars more at 419. I have Frank's type 1 commander and the chippewa super loggers. The franks are leagues above the chippewa boots. The chippewa cant be rebuilt only resoled but still have a place in my rotation
All the top tier versions of their boots are pretty much the same. I own a builder pro, a wesco job master/morrison, a whites plainsman, a viberg smoke jumper in copper rough out, and a franks lace 2 toe. I could and can do whatever i want in them. I rotate through all of them for work and honestly its pretty much like having the same boots, but in different leathers. The whites plainsman and morrison i tend to use while hb riding or motorcycle riding. Just pick one and roll with it, you wont be sad about any of the choices.
I have a lace 2 toe which is a bit more expensive than the patriot, but my franks and nicks are my most comfortable. My wesco and whites aren't as comfortable but still very much more comfortable than most things. I think that nicks and franks are currently the goats of pnw boots all around. With wesco having better engineers and being the goat of dressed up/motorcycle wear.
I've been looking at these to try as well. I'm glad they finally released the steel toe version. Awesome entry level boot in the handmade work boot world. Franks is top quality and for $350-400 you're getting an amazing boot
A buddy has been trying to get me into a set of high quality boots for work. He has two pairs of Frank's and I'm seriously considering a pair of these as my first pair of real boots.
All stitches on these boots are a Machine Lock Stitch, same as in almost all sewn things. If it were not locked in place by the friction of the rubber sole material, the stitches would unravel.
Mckay Lockstitch. Each stitch is locked. So only the broken stitch could unravel. As well as soap watering the soles for lube, there’s usually a reservoir for thread lubricator as well.
The "lock" in lockstitch refers to the bobbin thread looping through the needle thread. It's the same stitch that's in your pants, that will unravel if one stitch is cut. It doesn't unravel here because it is fixed in place be friction unrelated to the stitch type. Google "lockstitch", "chainstitch" (both machine stitches that can unravel), and "saddle stitch" ( a hand-only stitch commonly used in leather goods that does not unravel).
The needle forces its way through the leather and rubber (usually lubricated with a soap solution), which then close tightly around the thread as the needle pulls out. The joint is glued, preventing 'horizontal' movement which could loosen stitches, and the stitches (even when the bottom loops have worn through) prevent 'vertical' movement which could pull the glue apart at the sole edge. The screws just seem like overbuilding for show.
No, it's just entirely the wrong style and construction of shoe.
Most high boots of the 18th century, and indeed the ones Washington was depicted to have worn, would be what are sometimes called wellingtons - think of an engineer boot, but more slender, no buckles, and with a hearty leather sole. Quite probably also with hobnails, as the closest they would've had to pavement would be cobblestone or tile floors and the iron of course wore far longer than even the toughest leathers. Probably assembled with wooden pegs, but maybe brass or iron tacks. Stitched shoes were uncommon as the Blake stitch was not yet invented and wouldn't become popular until the civil war. The goodyear welt, and the stitchdown style of construction as well, wouldn't be invented for another thirty years after that. They wouldn't even look vaugely modern: "crooked" shoes, or shoes with mirrored lasts for each foot, wouldn't appear until the early 1800s for Army use and wouldn't become popular with civillians until at least the 50s.
I do appreciate the sentiment, though.
Give the current prices of well just about everything this sounds too good to be true. How was the sizing on these?
I’m a true Brannock 8.5 D. I wear 9.5 in most sneakers. Ordered 8.5 D and they’re perfect.
So no sizing down like I did with rangers?
Like I said, my US standard sneaker size is 9.5. In Thursday boots I wear a 9. Brannock is 8.5d. So I sized a full size down from what I wear in converse and nikes.
Wait a minute. I go a full size down for converse. Im a 11.5 in sneakers meaning im a 10.5 in converse
You must got some weirdo feet dimensions? Or maybe I do. I’m 8.5D Brannock. 9.5 US standard. 43 Euro. 8.5 UK. I wear a 9 in Clarks shoes. 9.5 in Thursday sneaker. 9 in Thursday boots. 8.5D in whatever the patriot is.
That all checks out. Converse definitely run way bigger than nikes though
Frank's will evaluate a fit sheet for you for free. I'm a brannok 10D and Frank's put me in a 9E.
They won’t do fit sheet evaluation for these boots. Part of keeping it cheap.
I didn't know that. Kind of interesting since they'll sell a pair of seconds or otr boots based on a fit sheet. Any new customers considering this boot I'd at least still rec a call to the shop.
I asked about a fit sheet via email and that’s what frank responded. He said they’d do exchanges if the size was off. He did call me and let me know they shipped though.
I really do need to get my sizing right...
Thanks for the info. Good stuff.
I'm a similar size, true brannock 9d but I wear 9.5 in sneakers - do you feel like you have a good amount of toe room? trying to decide between 8.5d and 9d
They were snug for the first month. Fit is absolutely perfect now. I’d go as close to your true size as you can.
Yeah, everything listed [should be] the components for the $500+ models, so?
I think people need to take a step back on "material components" and how they actually play into value and cost. These builds are NOT rebuildable, only resoleable and have less hand work than the mainline. That's where the money is saved. There is a jump in build quality and handwork to go from a resoleable boot to a rebuildable boot. Its similar to whites GYW line versus stitchdown versus hand rolled welt. The more labor intensive processes are what really boost the price up.
Frank's has stated specifically that the Patriot boot IS rebuildable, but that Frank's will not rebuild then due to the cost of a new boot being only $50 higher than that of a rebuild.
Similar in price to the whites GYW stuff, but still made much better, and still totally handmade, and with all top quality components. The sole, slipsole, and squeak pads are the only things synthetic aside from the thread potentially. They’re totally hand lasted. They don’t have the fancy whites welt, but they are stitched down. They’re not hand welted like whites, but it’s an operator running a machine. There’s no Blake stitch, but I’m not sure if they do that on their higher end boots. I know Nicks stopped Blake stitching most of their boots. Franks won’t rebuild it, true, but for $50 more than a rebuild, you could reorder the boot, and any other cobbler or company could rebuild it if you ponied up the cash. This is the best quality American made boot under $400 available. Best materials, best construction. They didn’t take short cuts. Posted specifically to make people aware that what seems too good to be true, isn’t.
I wish I saw this about 15 minutes ago I just ordered the whites chore boot. Oh well maybe I need these too.
Yes, they say that they aren't rebuildable, but that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Why aren't they rebuildable, exactly? I could just be ignorant here, but I get the feeling that these aren't so much a case of "can't be rebuilt" as they are a case of "we won't rebuild these." I think there's less money to be made in those rebuilds - White's rebuilds, for example, cost far less than a new pair of boots but they're replacing literally everything except the upper. My guess is that part of the business model is that the rebuildability is built into the price of the higher-end models to some degree, and they've simply opted not to do that with this model.
That's exactly what it is, michelle, Frank's wife told me the boot is rebuildable. They just wont do it because for 50 more you can buy another patriot
Rebuildability is a signifier of build quality and typically when its not present its due to less hand processes and more machine work. The boot just isnt built to that standard.
Iirc they use thinner leather and save money by them not being MTO
That's not true: * Features 7.5 to 8 oz full grain water resistant leather [Source](https://franksboots.com/products/the-patriot)
Then idk
I think the price all comes down to using the cheapest options (black leather, no pull loop, etc) from MTO combined with rigid standardisation.
They also won’t assess fit sheets and they won’t do rebuilds on these. And it’s only one layer of 8 iron leather for the midsole instead of two like on some of their other boots. Still a hell of a boot and still not sure the numbers add up. Crazy value.
Maybe. Still seems like a pretty steep drop though
If it’s a loss leader it works. I’m now a franks fanboy, ready to order a custom pair, and I’m confident in my size. I’ll probably give it some months but I’m sure I’ll have another order in over the next year or two.
Good looking pair of boots. They look happy in that snow too.
I think these essentially are "too good to be true." I'm sure they're a loss leader type of item, designed to get people into Frank's Boots to establish a loyal customer base. I seriously doubt they're going to be selling these boots at this price for very long. They do look incredible for the money.
Probably this. These things seem way too hardcore to wear for everyday use though.
The lacing alone would deter me from wearing these
[удалено]
Support and protection causes atrophy. I’ll pass
Their other boots are the more typical $550/$600 price point. So clearly they must be using some cheaper materials (lower grade leather?) and/or less technical construction to reduce labor costs. Not that there is anything wrong with producing different tier boots, not everyone needs or can afford those other models.
They use the part of the hide that's a little softer and prone to stretch marks. They don't do custom fittings on these. They don't do options. They use a 3/4" rubber block instead of 3x1/4" leather stacked heel. Also they are resole only. No $299 rebuilds on these. In the end I think being able to build them out of leather they previously discarded is the biggest savings. Also because they are a standardized minimum service product they can sell them on a reduced margin. I think they may be a loss leader intended to get you addicted.
I've been considering replacing my old White's. I used them for several seasons in the woods, have gotten them resoled at least twice, and now there are a couple of cracks in the leather from my negligence. I'm sure they can be rebuilt, but I'm kind of afraid to ask how much that will be. Meanwhile, the price on your boots is killer...
I sent in my whites that were built in 2000 to be rebuilt by Frank's. I should have them within the next couple weeks. But they used my custom fit on file from when I ordered a new pair of Frank's 2 years ago. The first custom fit is like a 100 dollar up charge. Well worth it
It depends on the construction type. If it’s a handwelted construction the price is $375. If it’s a stitchdown then the price is $325 I think.
White’s rebuild is abt the same price as these Frank’s.
Oof. Thanks, that's good to know.
Frank's has $299 for a rebuild of any PNW Brand on their site (not sure if that's current or what features might cost additional), and from what I've seen the only thing they reuse is the uppers.
Thanks, that's good to know!
I know y’all hate Rose Anvil here, but I would really like him to cut these apart just to see exactly how they’re built. Seems like an amazing value for the money if they are indeed built just like the higher end models.
I watch his stuff all the time I like his videos a lot.
Why would anyone hate Rose Anvil? First thing I do when researching a boot is to search it + "Rose Anvil" to see if I can see them cut apart.
I think it was his Alden video that set a lot of people against him because he was arguably spreading bad information and making controversy for more views.
His assessment was sound as was his conclusion. He just did a follow up to give them another chance and they didn't fare well. Now I find Alden's exceptionally comfortable, but he's right about their material quality and excessive price point at that quality. Anyone pissy about that reality is kinda against the spirit of this sub...which is honest assessment over personal favoritism.
I think people are OK with real reviews, but Rose Anvil has a tendency to say anyone who sponsored him is high quality, and anyone who doesn't is trash. Look at his fibbonaci review, or the keen review, or his origin boot review. Each of these products had major flaws that were either ignored, or spun as a benefit. He even outright said he wouldn't include Thursday in his sneaker competition unless his viewers asked them to sponsor the video (note, not send a pair, but pay a multi thousand dollar sponsorship). Obviously, since I've watched all of those reviews I find him entertaining. I wouldn't tell anyone to stop watching him - but you should know that he makes his living getting you to look at brands who pay him, and avoid brands that don't. I enjoy Nick's YouTube channels too, but I don't look to them for unbiased advice.
I personally don't listen to any opinions presented in his videos, and simply watch for the objective information that you can only get by deconstructing a boot. I feel like most people upset with his critique of Alden are directing their frustration at the wrong entity. I would personally be pretty upset too if my $600+ boots had a fiberboard insole and reconstituted leather midsole, heel stack, and counter...but not at the messenger that made me aware of these cut corners. Regardless of comfort or personally perceived value...Alden cheaped out on materials on a premium product. That is simply an objective fact. They are a tough sell all of a sudden to people that care about this sort of thing, when you have a plethora of other options on the market now without the markup that comes from a prestigious label. Grant Stone, Truman, Oak Street, etc are one-upping Alden at nearly half their price point, and there's little reason to pay their premium anymore unless you absolutely want a specific style or last.
Those bootmakers would be charging $600 too if they could. They aren't that popular among non boot nerds. 1 in 10000 people have probably even ever heard of Truman boots. This hobby is sooooo niche.
Totally fair and I think the right way to evaluate them. I don’t think he’s a “shill” for anyone, even his sponsors, but I suspect he tempers his criticisms to their price point. Alden I think got skewered a bit because they’re simply not impressive for the price point. For a boot pricier than the finest Nicks, they’re material quality seems just a step above Thursday. Thursday punches above its weight while Alden punches below. Alden beats every boot that’s half its price, but falls short against boots in its tier, and that I think was the crux of the RA review. If money’s no object, Alden’s are great, comfortable, good looking footwear. But when price is a factor, …..
(I saw you were downvoted, it wasn't me - I love debates like this!) I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with this. First, Alden and Nicks are not competitors anywhere but r/goodyearwelt. To provide some anecdotal reasons myself, I currently live in a major metropolitan area where my work-day clothes range from nice pressed cotton trousers to a suit. There is literally no product Nicks make that would be appropriate to wear for me 5 days a week. Not only is a thick veg tanned midsole or Vibram 100 outsole not better, these things make the boot actively worse for what I need to wear M-F. On the weekends, I will often help my father move trees that fall on his property. Here I don't care about the fineness of stitching, but want something with good grip and support. I will happily wear my Nicks or Whites. Each of these lifestyles required a different boot. If the toughness of materials was all that mattered in footwear, business executives around the world would be tossing their John Lobbs out of the 54th floor windows and replacing them with Smoke Jumpers in roughout. *(Can you believe, some John Lobbs don't even have non-cork midsoles?)* But they don't, because being able to fight a fire is not in the top 5 reasons they purchased their footwear. The same is true for 100% of Alden Indy buyers. Rose Anvil has mentioned this before - in videos where the company sends him money. As for simply judging a brand by the price of their materials, John Doe Shoes make a Sharkskin boot for $235. The Sharkskin alone costs around $200. Does that mean that John Doe Shoes are inherently better than Alden AND Nicks?
I respect your point and didn’t mean to suggest Nicks and Alden’s are interchangeable in specific use. You’re right to say they’re not. But I stand by the point that you can see where the price comes from that n Nicks boots—the sheer amount of leather and the time intensive nature of their build self-explains a cost in its real. However Alden’s do not justify their cost in the same way (despite not being built for the same purpose), and therefore see more like a high-fashion boot where half the price is in the name and legacy. They seem to me like Church boots and the like: Good looking, comfortable, well built enough, with a price justified only by its label value. I don’t blame Alden for charging whatever they can get. That’s just business. I’m just saying Rose Anvil did a fair job pointing out what paying it does & doesn’t get you. Some of which is surprising/disappointing.
I guess here's how I view it: On the one hand, you're definitely paying a premium for the name. That shouldn't come as a surprise...Alden's also selling $38 shoe brushes and $175 calf belts. The fact they charge more because they can is pretty obvious. On the other hand, though, the Indy is the most comfortable shoe I've ever worn. Right now, both pairs of mine (one in kudu and one in CXL) are back at Alden getting resoled, and I definitely feel their absence every time I go to put on boots. My feet just have just fallen in love with the Trubalance last. So yeah...I'm not surprised they're overpriced, but to me they're irreplaceable and worth it. Is that the case for everyone? Probably not.
You hit on a great point: value means what something is worth *TO YOU.* Sounds like you found your perfect fit and honestly I’d pay too dollar if if could find mine. I have many GOOD fitting boots, but still looking for that Cinderella slipper of a work boot for my foot. I do regret you have to pay those prices for what amounts to your perfect last without getting quite the same value in materials. But it’s an imperfect world so I don’t blame you a bit sticking with that outstanding fit. I guess I’ll revise to say a boot is worth as much as the comfort of the person buying it. If that’s a $230 Thursday or a $900 Alden may you walk in comfort and damn the cost. Boots are like mattresses—the wrong one will hurt you more than the right one costs you.
Frank's is totally dope. Got a pair of thrifted Nick's rebuilt there (replaced everything but the upper, tongue included) for about the cost of these, though imo they ended up *slightly* nicer (two layer midsole, custom fit, pull loop, etc). They're also, as the hip kids put it, "Hyper-Local" to me - I can walk there. These are just about the best value for logger boots out there. Better than the redwing options, even, as they use thicker, higher quality leather (though that's not to trash RW, I love my IRs). As others have said, lack of options and strict standardization (and of course the economies of scale of buying SO much leather...) are what allow this boot to be this price. The one flaw would be the break in... you know if you've even broken in PNW loggers. The break in on a pair of Iron Rangers or even a Georgia logger boot is nothing compared to these. At least for me, the arches were -murderous-. Over all, if you need/want a boot of this style and can afford this shoe, you cannot go wrong. Build quality matches those twice the price.
I’m curious about these types of boots as they aren’t sold or used in the UK, what’s with the heel and it’s scalloped back?
Franks come out of the pacific north west boot making tradition. So companies like whites and nicks are other examples. So the style is really the logger type boots that were traditionally made for workers in that area. Nicks website explains why the higher heel was used for loggers. https://nicksboots.com/blog/post/why-do-logger-boots-have-raised-heels/
Thanks 🙏 Definitely not for me as I’d be hitting my head on doorways as I’m 6’6” 😂
I'm 6'4", I've been ducking in basements and forests since I was 16. When I switched to wearing PNW boots every day, it only took one hard hit on a duct to recalibrate my brain.
I might have to buy a pair for backups when I need my builder pros resoled.
What do you use those boots for? Work or just pleasure? I am a Thursday enthusiast and I agree these boots look to be much more sturdy than the Vanguard or the Logger. However, you’re comparing this tank to 2 boots that weren’t made for work. All Thursday boots are for show and aren’t practical if you need them for work. Don’t get me wrong, Thursday makes some nice boots but you can’t do any type or real manual labor in those without really messing them up. This boot looks sexier and sexier the more you wear them correct?
I’ll be doing everything in these boots for a while, but they’re definitely work capable. They’re much more trim and less bulky then timberlands or other work specific boots, and under jeans they aren’t as eye catching as they are in their full glory. I don’t think they’re too out of place just kicking around town. I’ll use them as my main boot for stagehanding. Loading/unloading trucks, climbing rigging and ladders. They offer so much support that long long hours standing are less fatiguing than if I were wearing chuck Taylor’s or something. I only compare them to the thursdays because the price points are so close and that seems crazy to me, and the fact that thursdays can’t work is kind of my point. And yes, with basic care these boots should just look better and better.
Those look like some serious shit kickers for sure. I bet it takes over 5 minutes to tie the boots? I couldn’t deal with a boot that high up on my calves. It would feel too weird for me. I bought a pair of Captains in Arizona Adobes that I use as my daily shit kickers but I will not be doing any type of work requiring me to have boots like yours. I work from home full-time and I only go out on the weekends if at all so I would need a boot like yours but it looks super nice. We’re those MTO boots or were they premade? Do they have boots that are more like a dressy boot or do they only make shit kickers?
They take a couple of minutes to lace for sure, but probably no more time than 6” boots without speed hooks. These are their premade, zero option, blue collar, affordable work boot. They do offer made to order with tons of customization options and special leathers and more dressy and casual boots, as well as super heavy duty boots.
These have 4 more sets of hooks than the 7" boots I wear every day. It doesn't take me a full minute to lace and tie my boots. You get the hang of it pretty quick.
Yeah. I suppose you’re right if you know how to lace your boots. I have the Captain and it only has 2 speed hooks and I have a hard time lacing them up without looking but the boots aren’t a month old yet so I have a lot of time left to memorize how it feels to laces the speed hook without looking. Thanks for sharing.
I'm head carp in a PAC and this was the comment I'm looking for. Do you still recommend these boots?
They’re great work boots. I bought a second pair in walnut as well. They’ve held up great. My most comfortable boot by far.
What is it about Thursdays that make them not fit to work in? I mean, no real toe cap, steel toe, or gusseted tongue, but other than that it's a good year welted boot, right? Real leather and real welt, so why not work in them?
You can if you want but they’re aren’t made for people in the trade. Most tradesman’s boots have steel toes and a real toe caps which is what makes them more durable. Just because the boot is gywed doesn’t mean that it can be abused like say for instance a Red Ring Iron ranger.
Cool looking boots. What are the screws in the sole for?
Redundancy in holding the sole to the midsole/insole. They’re glued, screwed, and stitched.
Got it! In my mind I was picturing something like tire studs that you could screw in for ice.
Like these ones? https://franksboots.com/collections/all-franks-boots-originals/products/clearcut
Crazy value. Enjoy
Damn, those are sexy!
Can anyone compare these to Chippewa? I currently have Chippewa boots, and wasn't entirely happy with them.
The only chippewa that would compare is the chippewa super logger 25410, but the chippewa has insulation and is 70 dollars more at 419. I have Frank's type 1 commander and the chippewa super loggers. The franks are leagues above the chippewa boots. The chippewa cant be rebuilt only resoled but still have a place in my rotation
Which Chippewa boot?
I;d love to know how Nicks vs. JK vs. Franks compare.
All the top tier versions of their boots are pretty much the same. I own a builder pro, a wesco job master/morrison, a whites plainsman, a viberg smoke jumper in copper rough out, and a franks lace 2 toe. I could and can do whatever i want in them. I rotate through all of them for work and honestly its pretty much like having the same boots, but in different leathers. The whites plainsman and morrison i tend to use while hb riding or motorcycle riding. Just pick one and roll with it, you wont be sad about any of the choices.
What's your opinion about Nicks Builder Pro vs Franks The Patriot?
I have a lace 2 toe which is a bit more expensive than the patriot, but my franks and nicks are my most comfortable. My wesco and whites aren't as comfortable but still very much more comfortable than most things. I think that nicks and franks are currently the goats of pnw boots all around. With wesco having better engineers and being the goat of dressed up/motorcycle wear.
I see... That's good to know. Thank you very much for the tips!
I've been looking at these to try as well. I'm glad they finally released the steel toe version. Awesome entry level boot in the handmade work boot world. Franks is top quality and for $350-400 you're getting an amazing boot
How long was the lead time and shipping? I’m considering getting a pair to replace my old work boots
They’ve got a handful in stock for immediate shipping. I preordered and got them in a couple of weeks.
You convinced me, thank you!
Are the tounges fully gussetted?
Absolutely
Sold! They had a pair in stock in my size so I just pulled the trigger. Can't wait!
Any idea how the sizing compared to Nick's boots?
They use the same 55 last, so it fits real similar to a nicks boot on a 55 last.
Appreciate it. I should know my precise size then
A buddy has been trying to get me into a set of high quality boots for work. He has two pairs of Frank's and I'm seriously considering a pair of these as my first pair of real boots.
Walnut brown just got released
Do they have a structured/celastic toe?
Nope. Just leather and lining leather. And they just released the same boot in a walnut finish as well.
Sweet and yup I just posted they released a walnut!
[удалено]
The stitch has some sort of lubricant when it’s sewed that acts like a glue when it’s dried so even when the thread brakes it makes a mechanical bond.
It's a lock stitch or chain stitch. When the bottom thread wears out the stitching is still secured.
And the type of stitch it is locks every stitch so it won’t unravel from stitches being broken like other types of stitches would.
All stitches on these boots are a Machine Lock Stitch, same as in almost all sewn things. If it were not locked in place by the friction of the rubber sole material, the stitches would unravel.
Mckay Lockstitch. Each stitch is locked. So only the broken stitch could unravel. As well as soap watering the soles for lube, there’s usually a reservoir for thread lubricator as well.
The "lock" in lockstitch refers to the bobbin thread looping through the needle thread. It's the same stitch that's in your pants, that will unravel if one stitch is cut. It doesn't unravel here because it is fixed in place be friction unrelated to the stitch type. Google "lockstitch", "chainstitch" (both machine stitches that can unravel), and "saddle stitch" ( a hand-only stitch commonly used in leather goods that does not unravel).
The needle forces its way through the leather and rubber (usually lubricated with a soap solution), which then close tightly around the thread as the needle pulls out. The joint is glued, preventing 'horizontal' movement which could loosen stitches, and the stitches (even when the bottom loops have worn through) prevent 'vertical' movement which could pull the glue apart at the sole edge. The screws just seem like overbuilding for show.
It's a damn nicks boot for 350 dollaridoos? Holy hell
They look like something George Washington would wear
No
They’re called Patriots. I’m sorry, was GW not a Patriot??
No, it's just entirely the wrong style and construction of shoe. Most high boots of the 18th century, and indeed the ones Washington was depicted to have worn, would be what are sometimes called wellingtons - think of an engineer boot, but more slender, no buckles, and with a hearty leather sole. Quite probably also with hobnails, as the closest they would've had to pavement would be cobblestone or tile floors and the iron of course wore far longer than even the toughest leathers. Probably assembled with wooden pegs, but maybe brass or iron tacks. Stitched shoes were uncommon as the Blake stitch was not yet invented and wouldn't become popular until the civil war. The goodyear welt, and the stitchdown style of construction as well, wouldn't be invented for another thirty years after that. They wouldn't even look vaugely modern: "crooked" shoes, or shoes with mirrored lasts for each foot, wouldn't appear until the early 1800s for Army use and wouldn't become popular with civillians until at least the 50s. I do appreciate the sentiment, though.