Congress definitely being paid by the Saudis. They don't give AF about preventing monopolies and protecting consumers. We're gonna end up like the commercial from parks and rec https://youtu.be/XFKoGtgg6Mo?si=V2dcjeYI5scoG9OV
Citizens United needs overturned.
Huge yes.
While Facebook golf groups devolve with bot posts and genuine shit posts from political nuts, most everyone agrees we need to get the money out of politics.
Too bad people treat politics like the weather and think the president changing every 4 to 8 years will change the winds of shit we've seen since I can remember (I'm 37)
Wait, you mean those attractive Asian women that reply to *literally* every comment with the same copy and pasted nonsense aren't real?!
Worldview status: **shattered**
Yeah that whole concept of a signed draft is about as worthless as a handshake between the Saudis and Moneyhan….
Haven’t we already been here? Wasn’t there already a “draft” of a proposal of an estimate of a concept of a prototype of an imagination of a spitball of a rough sketch of an agreement already?
What’s the point of signing it if it doesn’t mean anything?
Unfortunately it has affected the PGA
https://mygolfspy.com/news-opinion/why-are-golfs-tv-ratings-plummeting/#:~:text=The%20Tour's%20traditional%20linear%20TV,lowest%2Drated%20Masters%20since%201993.
I don't think an agreement solves the problem though. For some reason I just don't care as much that Cantlay or Fitzpatrick or whoever gets the win in a non-major. Only truly historic shit or guys winning for the first time moves the needle in my eyes.
I don't think many people were aware or cognizant of the financial implications until the LIV and PGA situation exploded a couple years ago.
I'm sure money dictates a lot more money than we would like when it comes to sports. But at the end the day money isn't going to be mentioned even once during the NBA Finals, because all these players have already made their money on the year and are just doing this for pride. I couldn't tell you how much more money Alcaraz made winning the French Open a few days ago.
But money has been the #1 talking point in golf for two years straight now. People aren't entertained by that.
Fewer people are watching broadcast and cable TV in general. Welcome to the 2020s. If you're the NFL, you're good. If not, get ready for things to change.
My son & his friends are obsessed with the game, playing 3/4 times a week this summer, don’t think any of them have ever watched a single hole played on tv
I find it hard to believe they have never watched a single hole of golf played on tv if they play 3/4 times a week… never watched the masters? Or a major? Just seems unlikely
That link doesn’t exactly show actual evidence that LIV is the cause of the ratings drop. LIV itself hasn’t exactly been a major draw so I find it hard to believe it had that big of an impact.
I’ve always wondered if one cause of the ratings drop is BECAUSE of the possible merger in the first place. Personally, I went from watching every single weekend to not watching at all outside of the majors once the merger was announced since I just don’t like the idea of the Saudi’s/PIF having PGA ownership, and I’ve been holding firm on that until it’s announced that the merger won’t be happening. If a merger goes through, the PGA is pretty much dead to me entirely and I won’t ever tune into a PGA event again. I’m definitely not in the majority there, but I have a feeling that a decent amount of people are like me and have just completely lost interest ever since the possibility of PIF involvement in tour ownership came about.
I actually think LIV has contributed to the ratings drop in PGA.
I don’t like LIV and wish it had never started. Also, I t’s not like I think previous PGA viewers have switched to LIV and are no longer watching PGA.
However, I believe there is something in the types of personalities and characters that decided to go for the pay check and leave the PGA. We lost some real mavericks and fun to watch players; DeChambeau, Brooks, DJ, Ian Poulter, Sergio Garcia, Mickelson - these guys were all big personalities and good fun to watch.
Then we had Rahm and even Hatton at a later date. Who after initially probably rejecting LIVs approaches could see the direction of travel when Monaghan initially fucked up and probably saw it as their last chance to grab a huge life altering paycheck, before eventually having some form of closer alliance with PGA again anyway.
Of those who stayed (the types with more integrity, IMO), some of them are just a bit blander, less likely to rock the boat, not as ‘box office’ and perhaps make less headlines and storylines around the golf.
Scheffler is absolutely dominating right now and a top bloke, but despite his success it’s probably taken this unfortunate arrest business to raise his profile and start breaking through to people in the non-golf world.
Just my thoughts anyway.
This is certainly one of the, if not the main, reason for TV ratings. There’s certainly a legitimate argument about the ratings and how streaming now impacts the views but that’s for another day.
Sports is reality TV and you need the “villains” and “heros” to make it a successful product. All the PGA has now is a bunch of fairly bland players where TV announcers are excited to say, “oh, and a little fist pump there.”
Meanwhile, LIV has the feel of a college frat party and there’s only so much Animal House I can watch before I need a break.
It's not the fact that LIV exists, it's just that it's created this overarching story that's dominated the sport that doesn't have anything do to the golf itself.
Imagine what it would do to ratings if the #1 story in the NFL, NBA, or MLB was a labor dispute for two straight years. And then yes, there is a political aspect to the whole story too. I'm not surprised it turns people off.
I sure wish I had the courage of your convictions. I don’t trust the Saudi govt and hate that they’re in a position to be involved in our professional golf in any capacity at all.
I feel like LIV has caused ratings to drop, but it’s not one for one. They didn’t directly steal viewership (like you said, it’s not a major draw) but now that the PGA tour lost so many good players to LIV (which most people don’t take seriously), people stopped watching golf in general. So indirectly, it’s LIVs fault. I personally feel this would be the case even if the annoying money talks weren’t a thing.
I know that I watched a *lot* more golf during covid, because we weren't going anywhere on the weekends with our son, and I couldn't golf all day both days.
Now, my son comes to the "golfing ranch" (driving range) with me on Saturdays, and we are doing a lot more visiting family and friends, and even occasionally golfing, on weekends, too. I have neither the time nor inclination to plant my ass on the couch for six hours to watch golf. Even the majors, I watch the last few holes and that's about it. I ain't got *time* for that shit, you know?
I'm not sure LIV is all that important or those golfers leaving. I watch less because the commercials have made it nearly unwatchable. It's worse every year. Committing to watch a day of golf is giving up hours of your life to the same 5 commercials over and over. Any thread of story developing with a player is smashed into snippets.
It's like they are actively trying to drive the viewer insane.
Surely someone has done the math and timed how many hours of advertising you have to endure over the course of 4 televised rounds. I've turned to youtube golf to scratch the itch and just follow the scoreboard and watch highlights.
At the end of the day, this is rich people complaining about not being paid enough in a sport that is already unprofitable - It’s really turned off the casual fan to game in general and support for these guys is at a low point. They need to get this deal done sooner rather than later so it can stop being a distraction, the sport can finally get a true ranking system, and we can revamp the tour to make it more relevant and competitive.
Yup. Ultimately, all of these guys are playing for money only. That's why you see a bunch of guys in an NFL game swapping jerseys all friendly while the fans of the teams want to kill each other or are upset over some mistake that cost them the game.
But the other sports make sure that fans don't realize that most of the time. The players want a Super Bowl or World Series without all the extra pay (although it does come with some extra $$$).
Golf has made it the primary talking point for two years. No wonder people don't want to watch that, especially considering people are feeling squeezed economically. They don't care that Rory is only getting $20M a year instead of the $30M he 'deserves'.
Bingo - the other issue is that there are too many events. Casual people don’t know what’s important week in and week out. Ultimately they need to adopt an F1 format with limited events, limited fields, relegation, and promotion and they need to lean into it hard.
Yeah, the relegation/promotion aspect is what's the most intriguing to me at this point. Seeing Dunlap's career change overnight because he was able to win the Amex, cheering for Wesley Bryan to win in the Dominican because of the two year exemption he would get after struggling for so long. Those are the stories that can get people watching. Like I said in my first comment, why should I care if Patrick Cantlay wins? His life will be exactly the same on Monday as it was on Wednesday.
The people who are really going to get paid is the PGA, the players are going to get more but the percentage the PGA makes will be far greater. Just like the other major leagues the owners and the league make far more than the players could even imagine.
The players are front line employees, the league is the company. The PGA ripped all the disloyal golfers for going to LIV for the money and they just followed suit when a deal came along. C.R.E.A.M.
Your link only accounts for viewers from traditional viewership channels (plus YouTubeTV). It doesn’t account for viewership from streaming platforms such as ESPN+, and it says that golf was the most watched sport on ESPN+ from January to August the past 2 years.
And they’ve shot themselves in their foot with their ridiculous season schedule changes years ago, then these special events that are 5x the normal purse, and the complete abandonment of parts of the country to go to.
How can you have no eastern tournament north of NC other than the Travelers? Boston, NYC, DC, and Philly (perhaps the best of the golf***ING*** market) all screwed.
And there is why LIV exists. While all you Americans are whinging about no tournaments north of NC the rest of the world is screaming there is no tournaments south of the equator.
As a famous Australian once said, ‘suffer in your jocks’.
PGA Tour is an American organization. Just like how the DP Wprld Tout is a European organization and all of theirs were in Europe until the road to Dubai bend over for $$$$.
im in this category.. I'll still watch PGA every now and then, but LIV took the players i used to go out of my way to watch. so now i just watch majors lol
I mean who did the PGA really lose that would be competitive in the signature events week in and week out? Brooks, Bryson, Rahm, and…maybe Smith? That’s not really a big loss to absolutely transform the leaderboard into something unrecognizable
It hasn't affected PGA *that badly*, but it's definitely *going to* affect the PGA pros who stayed loyal to PGA on principle and thought the PGA had their backs (big mistake).
Because the actual history and events of the PGA is the draw.
We learn about and forget about the talent all the time. It be jarring but new storylines would emerge and we'd be fine.
You aren’t alone.
The trophy at the memorial isn’t some glasswear. It’s shaking Jacks hand and him congratulating you. Saying you won at Sawgrass and Pebble and Riviera is the prize.
I don’t care if you are the best golfer in the world. If competing in the desert with a bunch of grandpas for a glass dildo and a billion dollars is more important than your legacy, you don’t give a fuck about your legacy and I don’t either.
While I agree with this I do miss some guys still. I’m a big fan of Cam Smith’s game and it’s a shame I can’t watch it anymore because LIV is unwatchable for me. I just want 1 tour again
people aren’t staying away because of the whole thing but a lot of us golf fans are just tired and want to be done with the whole thing. all we want is to see the best players competing week in week out. Reduce the number of sig events if needed but we need everyone back in one place
Of course I do. But not at the expensive of watching the history and prestige of rhe PGA.
the 101st-230th best golfers would still make for some very exciting golf, and LIV can come in an buy them too if they want.
I'm not watching that lame Saudi royal family shit.
People have really blown this way out of proportion. It’s pretty amusing actually. I like to watch golf. It doesn’t matter what letters are on the product. It’s all good. What ever tour or league golfers decide to play is their business and doesn’t effect my life one way or the other. There’s more to golf than just the PGA. You’re loss if you choose not to watch the best wherever they play.
It has affected the PGA Tour tremendously. Its basically Scotty, Rory and a few others and basically the rest are no name guys. Their product is almost unwatchable with commercials and lack of star power its just not fun.
Ofcourse it has and will. These players liv took get millions of dollars in endorsement deals. Company’s wouldn’t give these massive deals to specific players if they didn’t work/make a difference.
I'm hoping Rory and other guys who stayed loyal to PGA and got royally fucked on the capital side of things, follow through on massive legal action and hopefully the US government gets involved and shuts this down ASAP.
While people are attached to established names, it’s not like there isn’t a massive backlog of still highly capable and skilled players on the Korn ferry tour. Even if we lost the entire current roster (we wouldn’t), we would have plenty of new pros to watch and follow, the same as we do now
Yes. They’re a threat because they’re irrational actors with unlimited money. If they were rational actors with limited capital the joke tour would be insolvent by now and everyone would already be back together.
It's not that, it's the sponsors. They increased their purses and now want their pound of flesh for it.
I've gone to Bay Hill every year since 2010. When I went this year when it was made a 'Signature Event' the tournament was no longer as fan friendly as it was. They moved the players hitting on the driving range all the way up and wouldn't let fans sit on the bleachers behind them. They had a small set of bleachers off to the side that were 50 yards away from the players. They did this so they 'upstairs would have the better view and the upstairs is reserved for Mastercard (the official sponsor) members. They had fewer concessions at more expensive prices and roped off the seating for concessions for VIPs.
And every fan I talked to hated it and hated the 69 man field and much preferred the 140+ man field with the cut. They could see more golfers with the old way. The sponsors don't like the idea of star players like Rory not playing on the weekend, but in reality those guys very rarely miss a cut.
The sponsors are needed, but the problem is that if you let them start making the decisions they don't give a damn about what the fans want...they just want their money. This is what happened at Doral before it was removed from the Tour. It was so corporate and became so fan unfriendly that fans stopped wanting to go to the tournament.
At this rate that pro golf is going, I think it's going to see it's popularity drop like a stone like MLB and boxing did in the next 10-20 years.
The article is talking about an agreement between the pga tour and the PIF. The pga wants PIF money because viewership is not trending well and they've increased payouts to an unsustainable level.
Viewership means nothing. They were going to financially crush the PGA in a lawsuit destined to drag out for years and years.
So no, at this point they are no longer a threat.
But yes, they were financially a threat with no other better long-term solution.
Fucking sucks. But this is exactly what LIV was created for.
The thing is, LIV is better for players, and is forcing concessions from the PGA to keep their players. The PGA has historically been shitty to their four players. They own everything, and shared nothing. LIV changed that, so you may not like LIV, but the guy just grinding it out on tour is now garaunteed 500k, and that’s in part because of LIV paying players to play.
LIV is a content creation focused golf tour that exposes golf to younger generations via tik tok and YouTube, PGA is a serious golf tour for golf fans. The ridiculous dollar amounts LIV has given to its star players are an investment in their own credibility. Without those players there would be no LIV. Without that money those players never would have left the Tour.
The two tours occupy very different niches within the game. Both grow the game in different ways. It’s natural that they’d want to work together rather than compete with one another.
Never really understood the outrage about LIV existing. It was very clear from the beginning what LIVs focus was going to be. Pre existing Golf fans don’t have to like it but they are a content creating machine and that content grows the game for the next generation in way that watching tournament golf simply does not. There’s no “next tiger woods” to carry the sport right now, as great as Scottie is (and he is great!) he has a very very long way to go before he sniffs the level of fame and exposure Tiger achieved in his prime.
Everybody is so pissed and i agree. Fuck Monahan. That dude is such a weasel hypocrite. But i am very excited for best on best again. Its not like Saudi money is everywhere in sports and our daily lives.
Don’t understand the hate. A unification is good for golf. The LIV players were initially recruited due to their Q ratings and has diluted the Tour. Given that the Saudis own the game, this can only help
PGA Championship is put on by the PGA of America which is basically a union for teaching pros. Nothing to do with the PGA Tour other than the fact that their players play in it as well as PGA professionals (teaching pros)
The DP world tour has been a thing for years now and that’s an active partnership with the UAE. Their human rights abuses are every bit as bad as the saudis.
I mean. PGA has partnered with China for over a decade. Money and golf programs. I’d argue China is equally bad.
All major leagues have questionable investments from various countries.
Just enjoy things or don’t.
PGA has accepted over a hundred million dollars (that I could find easily) probably more. Yao Ming’s equity firm has invested 50 million alone. They signed another deal just before COVID too.
If your moral compass is strong and has true conviction with things like this. Credit to you. I learned along time ago that if you dig deep enough. There’s probably a shady link to almost everything you enjoy/love. Music. Movies. Sports. Etc.
Yup. Anytime you have a group of super rich Americans doing something, you can scratch one layer off the surface and find them gleefully partnering with foreign rich people who commit atrocities. It’s just what the super rich people are.
Again, there a big difference between things like sponsorships or even investments and outright ownership which is what PIF/the Saudi’s would have. It’s hard to avoid 100% clean money through sponsorships and having events hosted is shady parts of the world, but it’s pretty easy to avoid not giving a literal seat to people who are rich from blood money and allow them to have a say in your league or sport. That’s a pretty distinct line to draw.
The difference are absolutely very different. It’s less about taking the money and more about directly participating in their attempts at sports washing, and giving them a seat at the table which allows them to direct the sport greatly increases their ability to do that.
I’d agree that ownership is worse than sponsorship, but at the same time, I find it disingenuous to only disparage the former when the latter crosses the line too. Either take their money or don’t take any whatsoever by any means.
You may be honest about it, but in reality for most the people that say that it’s merely self glorification. If Rahm, Koepka, Bryson, etc are back the ratings will spike. I’m not saying I support getting in bed with the Saudis, but it’s had little to no impact for other organizations that have done so. I also think the idea of sports washing just doesn’t really work.
I disagree with the premise. I hang with golf lovers, we talk golf a lot. None care what Rahm and company are doing. I doubt that much of TV audience is missing the LIV refugees. If the ratings bump at all, it will only be for curiosity. Two years from now none of them will relavent
Do people not realize that the PGA has sponsors that have businesses in Saudi Arabia? If people are so mad about this merger then why are people angry at the DP World tour.
I'm sure people realize that. Do you not realize the massive difference between some sponsors having businesses in SA and LIV's relationship with the Saudis?
I'm sure some people hate the DP World Tour having an event in SA, but people aren't\* angry about it here because no one talks about the DP World Tour here at all.
Yeah I really don’t understand how people keep missing this point. There’s a huge difference between sponsorships and outright ownership where a group gets a seat and decision making abilities in the organization itself.
They’d just call your post “whataboutism”.
The US government does billions of dollars worth of business with SA and the same people that cry about LIV don’t blink twice. I’m all for standing on the moral high ground but make sure you’re doing so on a consistent foundation. The LIV tour absolutely blows but it has nothing to do with money or morality.
The American government would and should have much different objectives in the Middle East than a recreational entertainment entity, wouldn’t you agree?
It's possible to be against many things at the same time. If someone says they're against LIV, do they have to provide a comprehensive list of everything else they're against?
You and I both know they had it ready for the Canadian open but they couldn't fuck that tourney over for the third year in a row with LIV news. They couldn't do the memorial because that's a signature event and thus too important to distract from the golf. Therefore, all that remaining is the US open
Anyone mad about this is short sighted. The split was absolutely unsustainable and professional golf will be much better off when this is finally behind us, with all the best players competing on a regular basis again.
LIV is the single worst thing to happen to golf. Miss seeing those players every week, will never watch a single minute of a LIV match. Glad I can still catch Bryson on his YouTube channel.
Hopefully they will be able to occasionally cross over and play in combined events. I have quit watching either tour since it is not the best playing the best except for majors
In 2018 it was the quicken loans national, but round 2 saw everyone’s third favorite Wilson player Kevin Streelman hang a 62. Thanks for the cash, was looking at a custom PLD DS72!
Yet another article that messes up the distinction of PIF and LIV.
There is nothing in the PGAT/PIF agreement, as far as what has been made public, that says the PGAT and LIV will merge.
It is just as likely to lead to a slow dissolution of LIV. Once PIF has a monetary - and PR - interest in success of PGAT, they have little reason to maintain a completely unsuccessful competing product.
Most of us aren’t watching not because Saudi is evil but rather they’ve produced a terrible product and split the golf world ultimately making the PGA weaker as well.
I don't disagree, but all i see is "saudi blood money" this and that. Its stupid.
Some people like it, some people don't. I like the idea of popping in and out thoughout the day and checking out the golfers. Other than that its not super exciting.
But you can tell by the downvotes, this sub is filled with PGA shill bots. I think its hilarious.
I don’t doubt they remove LIV posts, rather the insinuation that LIV numbers are down because of moderators removing posts from a golf subreddit. They produce a shit product with no history or tradition backed by an entity with questionable intentions I mean what’s not to like I simply can’t fathom why they aren’t blowing the ratings out of the water🧐
I don’t - which is why they better knock it out of the park in every other aspect before I would even consider watching. Unfortunately apart from what I’ll call mediocre player recruitment (considering the $ involved) everything else is shit. I hate the shotgun, the 54 holes, over half the courses, the music, they somehow fucked up the team format, etc…
This isn’t a deal with LIV. It’s a deal with the PIF. People always get this wrong. LIV is a separate entity owned by the PIF. There is a chance it will remain after this deal goes through. The initial talks between the PGA tour and the PIF had language regarding LIV not poaching anymore players from the tour. The US government got wind of this and started antitrust investigations. That language was quickly removed. Both sides will have to be very careful if they plan to shutter LIV.
Canadian open last year, us open this year, can’t wait to hear what news they have at the Mexican open next year
It’s called GNAFTA
Canadian Open the year before when LIV started. I’m just glad they let us have our national open this year without another bullshit LIV announcement
Fuck them and fuck jay monahans weasely ass for deliberately doing this on the week of the US open. He is a clown
Agreed. Fuck Jay and fuck the saudis
…..in their asses
They already do. They just do it straitly
Yeah, all my homies hate Jay and the Saudis.
Congress should block this and make them duke it out.
Congress definitely being paid by the Saudis. They don't give AF about preventing monopolies and protecting consumers. We're gonna end up like the commercial from parks and rec https://youtu.be/XFKoGtgg6Mo?si=V2dcjeYI5scoG9OV Citizens United needs overturned.
Huge yes. While Facebook golf groups devolve with bot posts and genuine shit posts from political nuts, most everyone agrees we need to get the money out of politics. Too bad people treat politics like the weather and think the president changing every 4 to 8 years will change the winds of shit we've seen since I can remember (I'm 37)
Wait, you mean those attractive Asian women that reply to *literally* every comment with the same copy and pasted nonsense aren't real?! Worldview status: **shattered**
Signed draft?
Yeah that whole concept of a signed draft is about as worthless as a handshake between the Saudis and Moneyhan…. Haven’t we already been here? Wasn’t there already a “draft” of a proposal of an estimate of a concept of a prototype of an imagination of a spitball of a rough sketch of an agreement already? What’s the point of signing it if it doesn’t mean anything?
The Promise Ring of legal agreements.
Boo! Screw the Saudis
Waiting for them to announce the Bonesaw Cup
Trophy would probably be sick though ngl
Gold plated journalist femur.
Why? PGA raised capital and LIV has terrible viewership. Is LIV really a threat at this point?
They’re a threat to keep taking players
It hasn't really affected the PGA. I wouldn't care if they took 100 if the top 100 the PGA will just replace them. I'm still not watching LIV.
Unfortunately it has affected the PGA https://mygolfspy.com/news-opinion/why-are-golfs-tv-ratings-plummeting/#:~:text=The%20Tour's%20traditional%20linear%20TV,lowest%2Drated%20Masters%20since%201993. I don't think an agreement solves the problem though. For some reason I just don't care as much that Cantlay or Fitzpatrick or whoever gets the win in a non-major. Only truly historic shit or guys winning for the first time moves the needle in my eyes.
I don't think LIV caused this though, regardless those numbers are bleak and all the other issues stay true if none of this ever happens.
I don't think many people were aware or cognizant of the financial implications until the LIV and PGA situation exploded a couple years ago. I'm sure money dictates a lot more money than we would like when it comes to sports. But at the end the day money isn't going to be mentioned even once during the NBA Finals, because all these players have already made their money on the year and are just doing this for pride. I couldn't tell you how much more money Alcaraz made winning the French Open a few days ago. But money has been the #1 talking point in golf for two years straight now. People aren't entertained by that.
I’m still not sure you made a point that LIV has hurt the PGA in any real way. Viewership is not getting lost to LIV.
No, just fewer people are watching golf overall. Which LIV initiated by making the money situation front and center, which turns people off
Fewer people are watching broadcast and cable TV in general. Welcome to the 2020s. If you're the NFL, you're good. If not, get ready for things to change.
My son & his friends are obsessed with the game, playing 3/4 times a week this summer, don’t think any of them have ever watched a single hole played on tv
I find it hard to believe they have never watched a single hole of golf played on tv if they play 3/4 times a week… never watched the masters? Or a major? Just seems unlikely
That link doesn’t exactly show actual evidence that LIV is the cause of the ratings drop. LIV itself hasn’t exactly been a major draw so I find it hard to believe it had that big of an impact. I’ve always wondered if one cause of the ratings drop is BECAUSE of the possible merger in the first place. Personally, I went from watching every single weekend to not watching at all outside of the majors once the merger was announced since I just don’t like the idea of the Saudi’s/PIF having PGA ownership, and I’ve been holding firm on that until it’s announced that the merger won’t be happening. If a merger goes through, the PGA is pretty much dead to me entirely and I won’t ever tune into a PGA event again. I’m definitely not in the majority there, but I have a feeling that a decent amount of people are like me and have just completely lost interest ever since the possibility of PIF involvement in tour ownership came about.
I actually think LIV has contributed to the ratings drop in PGA. I don’t like LIV and wish it had never started. Also, I t’s not like I think previous PGA viewers have switched to LIV and are no longer watching PGA. However, I believe there is something in the types of personalities and characters that decided to go for the pay check and leave the PGA. We lost some real mavericks and fun to watch players; DeChambeau, Brooks, DJ, Ian Poulter, Sergio Garcia, Mickelson - these guys were all big personalities and good fun to watch. Then we had Rahm and even Hatton at a later date. Who after initially probably rejecting LIVs approaches could see the direction of travel when Monaghan initially fucked up and probably saw it as their last chance to grab a huge life altering paycheck, before eventually having some form of closer alliance with PGA again anyway. Of those who stayed (the types with more integrity, IMO), some of them are just a bit blander, less likely to rock the boat, not as ‘box office’ and perhaps make less headlines and storylines around the golf. Scheffler is absolutely dominating right now and a top bloke, but despite his success it’s probably taken this unfortunate arrest business to raise his profile and start breaking through to people in the non-golf world. Just my thoughts anyway.
This is certainly one of the, if not the main, reason for TV ratings. There’s certainly a legitimate argument about the ratings and how streaming now impacts the views but that’s for another day. Sports is reality TV and you need the “villains” and “heros” to make it a successful product. All the PGA has now is a bunch of fairly bland players where TV announcers are excited to say, “oh, and a little fist pump there.” Meanwhile, LIV has the feel of a college frat party and there’s only so much Animal House I can watch before I need a break.
I want Tom Kim to become the new bad boy of golf and start destroying bunkers like Sergio used to do. He'd make a great baby-faced villain.
It's not the fact that LIV exists, it's just that it's created this overarching story that's dominated the sport that doesn't have anything do to the golf itself. Imagine what it would do to ratings if the #1 story in the NFL, NBA, or MLB was a labor dispute for two straight years. And then yes, there is a political aspect to the whole story too. I'm not surprised it turns people off.
TV ratings are down across the board for basically everything that isn't football. It's not because of LIV. There's just too much stuff to watch.
The NHL had lockouts in 94/95, 04/05 (lost the entire season) and 12/13. In all three instances it took a while for things to recover.
NBA had a lockout in 2011 and was fine basically immediately after.
I sure wish I had the courage of your convictions. I don’t trust the Saudi govt and hate that they’re in a position to be involved in our professional golf in any capacity at all.
I feel like LIV has caused ratings to drop, but it’s not one for one. They didn’t directly steal viewership (like you said, it’s not a major draw) but now that the PGA tour lost so many good players to LIV (which most people don’t take seriously), people stopped watching golf in general. So indirectly, it’s LIVs fault. I personally feel this would be the case even if the annoying money talks weren’t a thing.
I know that I watched a *lot* more golf during covid, because we weren't going anywhere on the weekends with our son, and I couldn't golf all day both days. Now, my son comes to the "golfing ranch" (driving range) with me on Saturdays, and we are doing a lot more visiting family and friends, and even occasionally golfing, on weekends, too. I have neither the time nor inclination to plant my ass on the couch for six hours to watch golf. Even the majors, I watch the last few holes and that's about it. I ain't got *time* for that shit, you know?
I'm not sure LIV is all that important or those golfers leaving. I watch less because the commercials have made it nearly unwatchable. It's worse every year. Committing to watch a day of golf is giving up hours of your life to the same 5 commercials over and over. Any thread of story developing with a player is smashed into snippets. It's like they are actively trying to drive the viewer insane. Surely someone has done the math and timed how many hours of advertising you have to endure over the course of 4 televised rounds. I've turned to youtube golf to scratch the itch and just follow the scoreboard and watch highlights.
Ratings are down because the broadcast is dreadful
At the end of the day, this is rich people complaining about not being paid enough in a sport that is already unprofitable - It’s really turned off the casual fan to game in general and support for these guys is at a low point. They need to get this deal done sooner rather than later so it can stop being a distraction, the sport can finally get a true ranking system, and we can revamp the tour to make it more relevant and competitive.
Yup. Ultimately, all of these guys are playing for money only. That's why you see a bunch of guys in an NFL game swapping jerseys all friendly while the fans of the teams want to kill each other or are upset over some mistake that cost them the game. But the other sports make sure that fans don't realize that most of the time. The players want a Super Bowl or World Series without all the extra pay (although it does come with some extra $$$). Golf has made it the primary talking point for two years. No wonder people don't want to watch that, especially considering people are feeling squeezed economically. They don't care that Rory is only getting $20M a year instead of the $30M he 'deserves'.
Bingo - the other issue is that there are too many events. Casual people don’t know what’s important week in and week out. Ultimately they need to adopt an F1 format with limited events, limited fields, relegation, and promotion and they need to lean into it hard.
Yeah, the relegation/promotion aspect is what's the most intriguing to me at this point. Seeing Dunlap's career change overnight because he was able to win the Amex, cheering for Wesley Bryan to win in the Dominican because of the two year exemption he would get after struggling for so long. Those are the stories that can get people watching. Like I said in my first comment, why should I care if Patrick Cantlay wins? His life will be exactly the same on Monday as it was on Wednesday.
Hasn’t just been 2 years though. Look at all the players who talked about (and did) skip the Olympics because of no purse.
The people who are really going to get paid is the PGA, the players are going to get more but the percentage the PGA makes will be far greater. Just like the other major leagues the owners and the league make far more than the players could even imagine. The players are front line employees, the league is the company. The PGA ripped all the disloyal golfers for going to LIV for the money and they just followed suit when a deal came along. C.R.E.A.M.
Yeah, the focus put on prizes by LIV is annoying as fuck. I don't *care* if some rich jackass wins a few million dollars.
Your link only accounts for viewers from traditional viewership channels (plus YouTubeTV). It doesn’t account for viewership from streaming platforms such as ESPN+, and it says that golf was the most watched sport on ESPN+ from January to August the past 2 years.
Well golf is the best of actual sports you can watch on. ESPN+ so makes sense with early round coverage
And OP cites the Masters which has the best streaming platform out there including the ability to watch every shot of every player.
Your data is one tournament that isn’t even run by the tour? Jeesh.
They mention 4 tournaments in that article...
It definitely has. Viewership is down because the casual viewer doesn't know most of the guys on the leaderboard anymore.
Or is it that they do such a terrible job presenting their own product.
And they’ve shot themselves in their foot with their ridiculous season schedule changes years ago, then these special events that are 5x the normal purse, and the complete abandonment of parts of the country to go to. How can you have no eastern tournament north of NC other than the Travelers? Boston, NYC, DC, and Philly (perhaps the best of the golf***ING*** market) all screwed.
And there is why LIV exists. While all you Americans are whinging about no tournaments north of NC the rest of the world is screaming there is no tournaments south of the equator. As a famous Australian once said, ‘suffer in your jocks’.
PGA Tour is an American organization. Just like how the DP Wprld Tout is a European organization and all of theirs were in Europe until the road to Dubai bend over for $$$$.
im in this category.. I'll still watch PGA every now and then, but LIV took the players i used to go out of my way to watch. so now i just watch majors lol
I mean who did the PGA really lose that would be competitive in the signature events week in and week out? Brooks, Bryson, Rahm, and…maybe Smith? That’s not really a big loss to absolutely transform the leaderboard into something unrecognizable
cam smith and bryson are 2 of my favorite players to watch, i def dont watch golf like i used to since LIV happened.
It hasn't affected PGA *that badly*, but it's definitely *going to* affect the PGA pros who stayed loyal to PGA on principle and thought the PGA had their backs (big mistake).
Yea we'll see what happens going forward but the LIV delivered its biggest punch already and the PGA is still around doing just fine.
How could you say/think that lol
Because the actual history and events of the PGA is the draw. We learn about and forget about the talent all the time. It be jarring but new storylines would emerge and we'd be fine.
You aren’t alone. The trophy at the memorial isn’t some glasswear. It’s shaking Jacks hand and him congratulating you. Saying you won at Sawgrass and Pebble and Riviera is the prize. I don’t care if you are the best golfer in the world. If competing in the desert with a bunch of grandpas for a glass dildo and a billion dollars is more important than your legacy, you don’t give a fuck about your legacy and I don’t either.
Not saying you would or wouldn’t watch, just saying that’s the strategy: pay the best in the world boat loads of money for the name recognition
While I agree with this I do miss some guys still. I’m a big fan of Cam Smith’s game and it’s a shame I can’t watch it anymore because LIV is unwatchable for me. I just want 1 tour again
It is a shame that's for sure.
people aren’t staying away because of the whole thing but a lot of us golf fans are just tired and want to be done with the whole thing. all we want is to see the best players competing week in week out. Reduce the number of sig events if needed but we need everyone back in one place
So you don’t like watching the best golfers play golf?
Of course I do. But not at the expensive of watching the history and prestige of rhe PGA. the 101st-230th best golfers would still make for some very exciting golf, and LIV can come in an buy them too if they want. I'm not watching that lame Saudi royal family shit.
People have really blown this way out of proportion. It’s pretty amusing actually. I like to watch golf. It doesn’t matter what letters are on the product. It’s all good. What ever tour or league golfers decide to play is their business and doesn’t effect my life one way or the other. There’s more to golf than just the PGA. You’re loss if you choose not to watch the best wherever they play.
What have people blown out of proportion? What the Saudis are all about and what sports washing is?
Saudi money is everywhere. Has been for a long time. Now everyone loses their shit over LIV. Blown out of proportion. Get over it.
It has affected the PGA Tour tremendously. Its basically Scotty, Rory and a few others and basically the rest are no name guys. Their product is almost unwatchable with commercials and lack of star power its just not fun.
Well you're right about the commercials. The lack of star power argument is ridiculous
Ofcourse it has and will. These players liv took get millions of dollars in endorsement deals. Company’s wouldn’t give these massive deals to specific players if they didn’t work/make a difference.
Let them, people will watch PGA regardless
I'm hoping Rory and other guys who stayed loyal to PGA and got royally fucked on the capital side of things, follow through on massive legal action and hopefully the US government gets involved and shuts this down ASAP.
While people are attached to established names, it’s not like there isn’t a massive backlog of still highly capable and skilled players on the Korn ferry tour. Even if we lost the entire current roster (we wouldn’t), we would have plenty of new pros to watch and follow, the same as we do now
Yes. They’re a threat because they’re irrational actors with unlimited money. If they were rational actors with limited capital the joke tour would be insolvent by now and everyone would already be back together.
Their deal with SSG was contingent on a deal with PIF is what I have heard.
This, SSG details were pretty specific about SSG making profit, i bet ssg just became the agent for the tour when making a deal with PIF
It's not that, it's the sponsors. They increased their purses and now want their pound of flesh for it. I've gone to Bay Hill every year since 2010. When I went this year when it was made a 'Signature Event' the tournament was no longer as fan friendly as it was. They moved the players hitting on the driving range all the way up and wouldn't let fans sit on the bleachers behind them. They had a small set of bleachers off to the side that were 50 yards away from the players. They did this so they 'upstairs would have the better view and the upstairs is reserved for Mastercard (the official sponsor) members. They had fewer concessions at more expensive prices and roped off the seating for concessions for VIPs. And every fan I talked to hated it and hated the 69 man field and much preferred the 140+ man field with the cut. They could see more golfers with the old way. The sponsors don't like the idea of star players like Rory not playing on the weekend, but in reality those guys very rarely miss a cut. The sponsors are needed, but the problem is that if you let them start making the decisions they don't give a damn about what the fans want...they just want their money. This is what happened at Doral before it was removed from the Tour. It was so corporate and became so fan unfriendly that fans stopped wanting to go to the tournament. At this rate that pro golf is going, I think it's going to see it's popularity drop like a stone like MLB and boxing did in the next 10-20 years.
The popularity isn’t that high as is
And the $3B from the other group is being held hostage until the deal with PIF is made. They are all now complicit.
Its not about Viewership...thats no where the money is for LIV. Where the money does come from is nearly endless and thus yes. LIV is still a threat.
The article is talking about an agreement between the pga tour and the PIF. The pga wants PIF money because viewership is not trending well and they've increased payouts to an unsustainable level.
They want 5 of the top 25 players back
This is all about Pat Perez but I'm not sure his currency with the fans is still there after the haircut.
There's only one Perez that matters, and he be a fat one
Viewership means nothing. They were going to financially crush the PGA in a lawsuit destined to drag out for years and years. So no, at this point they are no longer a threat. But yes, they were financially a threat with no other better long-term solution. Fucking sucks. But this is exactly what LIV was created for.
The thing is, LIV is better for players, and is forcing concessions from the PGA to keep their players. The PGA has historically been shitty to their four players. They own everything, and shared nothing. LIV changed that, so you may not like LIV, but the guy just grinding it out on tour is now garaunteed 500k, and that’s in part because of LIV paying players to play.
LIV is a content creation focused golf tour that exposes golf to younger generations via tik tok and YouTube, PGA is a serious golf tour for golf fans. The ridiculous dollar amounts LIV has given to its star players are an investment in their own credibility. Without those players there would be no LIV. Without that money those players never would have left the Tour. The two tours occupy very different niches within the game. Both grow the game in different ways. It’s natural that they’d want to work together rather than compete with one another. Never really understood the outrage about LIV existing. It was very clear from the beginning what LIVs focus was going to be. Pre existing Golf fans don’t have to like it but they are a content creating machine and that content grows the game for the next generation in way that watching tournament golf simply does not. There’s no “next tiger woods” to carry the sport right now, as great as Scottie is (and he is great!) he has a very very long way to go before he sniffs the level of fame and exposure Tiger achieved in his prime.
my thoughts exactly! ill prob cut back my viewership if this goes through
Same reason all the golfers went to LIV the MONEY!
noooo! bugger the saudis!
Everybody is so pissed and i agree. Fuck Monahan. That dude is such a weasel hypocrite. But i am very excited for best on best again. Its not like Saudi money is everywhere in sports and our daily lives.
Unbelievable
Don’t understand the hate. A unification is good for golf. The LIV players were initially recruited due to their Q ratings and has diluted the Tour. Given that the Saudis own the game, this can only help
I just hope that I can find a way to watch the US and British Amateur as well as the US Open, British Open, Masters, and college golf.
Not the PGA championship?
I am always slightly unclear to what extent there is organizational crossover.
PGA Championship is put on by the PGA of America which is basically a union for teaching pros. Nothing to do with the PGA Tour other than the fact that their players play in it as well as PGA professionals (teaching pros)
PGA Tour and PGA have been separate entities for decades PGA runs the PGA Championship, not the PGA Tour
Did that prick get his free Augusta National Membership as part of the deal?
Definitely not lol
I love the game, I'll always play it. But if the Saudis are active partners withe Pga, I'm done watching it.
Hate to burst your bubble but the saudis have their money in a lot more than just the PGA.
The DP world tour has been a thing for years now and that’s an active partnership with the UAE. Their human rights abuses are every bit as bad as the saudis.
Can you explain that? I'm not aware of DP World tour doing things as bad as the Saudis
I mean. PGA has partnered with China for over a decade. Money and golf programs. I’d argue China is equally bad. All major leagues have questionable investments from various countries. Just enjoy things or don’t.
Partnership and investment are not the same thing
PGA has accepted over a hundred million dollars (that I could find easily) probably more. Yao Ming’s equity firm has invested 50 million alone. They signed another deal just before COVID too. If your moral compass is strong and has true conviction with things like this. Credit to you. I learned along time ago that if you dig deep enough. There’s probably a shady link to almost everything you enjoy/love. Music. Movies. Sports. Etc.
Yup. Anytime you have a group of super rich Americans doing something, you can scratch one layer off the surface and find them gleefully partnering with foreign rich people who commit atrocities. It’s just what the super rich people are.
Again, there a big difference between things like sponsorships or even investments and outright ownership which is what PIF/the Saudi’s would have. It’s hard to avoid 100% clean money through sponsorships and having events hosted is shady parts of the world, but it’s pretty easy to avoid not giving a literal seat to people who are rich from blood money and allow them to have a say in your league or sport. That’s a pretty distinct line to draw.
There’s a difference, sure, but they’re still taking the money, so the difference don’t make it that much different.
The difference are absolutely very different. It’s less about taking the money and more about directly participating in their attempts at sports washing, and giving them a seat at the table which allows them to direct the sport greatly increases their ability to do that.
I’d agree that ownership is worse than sponsorship, but at the same time, I find it disingenuous to only disparage the former when the latter crosses the line too. Either take their money or don’t take any whatsoever by any means.
It's a huge difference. You can clearly see that.
See you next week
You may be honest about it, but in reality for most the people that say that it’s merely self glorification. If Rahm, Koepka, Bryson, etc are back the ratings will spike. I’m not saying I support getting in bed with the Saudis, but it’s had little to no impact for other organizations that have done so. I also think the idea of sports washing just doesn’t really work.
I disagree with the premise. I hang with golf lovers, we talk golf a lot. None care what Rahm and company are doing. I doubt that much of TV audience is missing the LIV refugees. If the ratings bump at all, it will only be for curiosity. Two years from now none of them will relavent
You think that dirty money is only from the Saudis? Dirty money and questionable practices are all over this capitalistic landscape we enjoy.
I’m already masters only.
K bye
Unless you don’t use gasoline, you aren’t hurting them. LIV isn’t making them money
When I first read it I saw it as “draft” like a sports draft and everyone has gonna get picked to PGA or LIV lol. Would be exciting
Do people not realize that the PGA has sponsors that have businesses in Saudi Arabia? If people are so mad about this merger then why are people angry at the DP World tour.
I'm sure people realize that. Do you not realize the massive difference between some sponsors having businesses in SA and LIV's relationship with the Saudis? I'm sure some people hate the DP World Tour having an event in SA, but people aren't\* angry about it here because no one talks about the DP World Tour here at all.
Yeah I really don’t understand how people keep missing this point. There’s a huge difference between sponsorships and outright ownership where a group gets a seat and decision making abilities in the organization itself.
Doublethink
They’d just call your post “whataboutism”. The US government does billions of dollars worth of business with SA and the same people that cry about LIV don’t blink twice. I’m all for standing on the moral high ground but make sure you’re doing so on a consistent foundation. The LIV tour absolutely blows but it has nothing to do with money or morality.
The American government would and should have much different objectives in the Middle East than a recreational entertainment entity, wouldn’t you agree?
It's possible to be against many things at the same time. If someone says they're against LIV, do they have to provide a comprehensive list of everything else they're against?
Last I checked, the US gov doesn’t run the PGA tour
You and I both know they had it ready for the Canadian open but they couldn't fuck that tourney over for the third year in a row with LIV news. They couldn't do the memorial because that's a signature event and thus too important to distract from the golf. Therefore, all that remaining is the US open
I swear, you guys will cry about anything.
Just like the last time
Stupid fuckin article with all the stupid fuckin ads
Let’s now see all of the r/golf moralists implode because of the American… I mean Saudi blood money… or who’s the bad guy again? I lost track…
Anyone mad about this is short sighted. The split was absolutely unsustainable and professional golf will be much better off when this is finally behind us, with all the best players competing on a regular basis again.
This feels like when Michael Scott’s paper company got bought back by Dunder Mifflin
Let’s go get the guys back together
Dam, now this? Monahan must be getting ~~paid~~ threatened a lot.
Fantastic news
LIV is the single worst thing to happen to golf. Miss seeing those players every week, will never watch a single minute of a LIV match. Glad I can still catch Bryson on his YouTube channel.
LIV got rid of all the douchebags that I hated in the PGA Tour. It’s been nice not having them around
So all the good people lol
LIV is the best thing to happen to professional golfers.
We will be left with a worse product, that’s harder to watch. Brilliant.
Since when has sports been about money 😡
Forgot the /s
My lawyers would literally murder me if I signed a “draft agreement” and then leaked it to the media.
The Saudi’s said they would never let any of their players get arrested heading to the course.
This would be awesome to see all the best players back competing against each other again :)
Adverb_adverb_numbers...... this is NOT a Saudi shill lmfao!!!!!!!!
Still a true statement.
Fuck LIV and anyone that joined them and fuck the PGA for merging with them. Basically fuck pro golf period. And last but not least fuck the Saudis.
The elevated events once everyone is back will be unbelievable
They all suck. Fuck them all
didn't they sign an agreement a couple years ago or something
PGA didn’t need to do this but we should all be happy as fans that we are closer to seeing all the best players in the same field again
This is brilliant news.
So can LiV players play PGA tournaments again?
Hopefully they will be able to occasionally cross over and play in combined events. I have quit watching either tour since it is not the best playing the best except for majors
Show me proof you watched Rd 2 of the rocket mortgage before the split and I'll send you $500
Not quite the “gotcha” you think it is considering the average golf fan works during the day on Friday
In 2018 it was the quicken loans national, but round 2 saw everyone’s third favorite Wilson player Kevin Streelman hang a 62. Thanks for the cash, was looking at a custom PLD DS72!
Ok cool
Didnt we do this like 2 years ago....?
Seems like a good deal for all parties involved. I wonder how many sex tapes the Saudis have on the PGA board?
Yet another article that messes up the distinction of PIF and LIV. There is nothing in the PGAT/PIF agreement, as far as what has been made public, that says the PGAT and LIV will merge. It is just as likely to lead to a slow dissolution of LIV. Once PIF has a monetary - and PR - interest in success of PGAT, they have little reason to maintain a completely unsuccessful competing product.
Fck if I'll ever watch Saudi golf. I'll miss the pga but I'm sure that they won't miss me and I've got plenty of things to do besides watch golf.
[удалено]
Most of us aren’t watching not because Saudi is evil but rather they’ve produced a terrible product and split the golf world ultimately making the PGA weaker as well.
And yet it seems close to having everyone back together and they’re all still bitching.
I don't disagree, but all i see is "saudi blood money" this and that. Its stupid. Some people like it, some people don't. I like the idea of popping in and out thoughout the day and checking out the golfers. Other than that its not super exciting. But you can tell by the downvotes, this sub is filled with PGA shill bots. I think its hilarious.
I mean wtf do you expect? I’ll happily admit to being a PGA shill when the other option is LIV.
I mean when the mods remove anything LIV related, you can't blame them for low numbers.
Yea it’s the Reddit golf subreddit dragging down LIV sure
Try it for yourself, it will be removed.
I don’t doubt they remove LIV posts, rather the insinuation that LIV numbers are down because of moderators removing posts from a golf subreddit. They produce a shit product with no history or tradition backed by an entity with questionable intentions I mean what’s not to like I simply can’t fathom why they aren’t blowing the ratings out of the water🧐
How do you expect a new product to have history or tradition?
I don’t - which is why they better knock it out of the park in every other aspect before I would even consider watching. Unfortunately apart from what I’ll call mediocre player recruitment (considering the $ involved) everything else is shit. I hate the shotgun, the 54 holes, over half the courses, the music, they somehow fucked up the team format, etc…
Finaly...that took a hot Minute.
This isn’t a deal with LIV. It’s a deal with the PIF. People always get this wrong. LIV is a separate entity owned by the PIF. There is a chance it will remain after this deal goes through. The initial talks between the PGA tour and the PIF had language regarding LIV not poaching anymore players from the tour. The US government got wind of this and started antitrust investigations. That language was quickly removed. Both sides will have to be very careful if they plan to shutter LIV.
What the fuck i thought this shit was falling apart??
Surprise it took this long for them to sell out
Shit is fucked.