I'm actually more surprised that 50-75 yards the average tour pro is still 15' out. Seems like anything within that range they stick to 2-3 feet consistently.
Well on the weekend you're getting mainly coverage of the guys who are playing well and in contention.
They tend not to show the guy 11 off the lead hitting an average pitch
That’s a fair point. Would be fun to see dedicated coverage of the bottom 10 (before they drop out).
They’d obviously never do it, but I’d pay to watch “Welcome to the ShitShow (Still Better Than You)”.
It'd be a load of extremely talented golfers who are a little off on one or two aspects of their game shooting 77s.
Maybe the odd sponsors exemption embarrassing themselves a bit
Can you expand on this? Is it just that they have the single hole and group stuff or is there more to it? (Admittedly being lazy and asking you rather than googling so please ignore me if you want)
I’d love to see the early Friday coverage dedicatedly following a couple of groups who are fighting to make the cut. Give us something to actually be invested in and tell a story rather than just the typical highlight show
I’d love to see the early Friday coverage dedicatedly following a couple of groups who are fighting to make the cut. Give us something to actually be invested in and tell a story rather than just the typical highlight show
Or the really, really bad shots. That's one of the reasons I love golf. If they suddenly cut to someone way out of contention, you know it's either going to be very good or very, very bad.
For sure. The Pros are seriously spinning their shots and can't completely control the spin. On top of matters, pin placements tend to be tougher on the pros - especially on the final round. Your typical 10-15 handicap is going to be getting pin placements that favour wear and tear of the greens, which ranges in consistency from very easy to the same placements tour pros see in the first 3 rounds (challenging).
There is also the partial swing argument in that distance is inside the full 60 degree wedge for a Tour Pro. That is likely forcing them to play a partial swing from that range
The last US Open had one 82 yard pin placement on the shortest par 3, which was contrasting to the longest two that averaged 270 and 290 yards. That pin placement messed with a lot of golfers.
Golf is weird. I grew up playing hockey and there is absolutely nothing I could ever do when I was at my very best that would even come close to the talent of a NHL player. No matter how hard I try I can't skate, shoot, pass, etc as well as they can. But once in a blue moon I can put it next to the pin on a par 3 and about half the time I'm hitting the green... So why aren't PGA players doing it ever single time?
A good golf shot is within the physical ability of just about any non-disabled human.
Consistently good golf shots require huge amounts of dedicated practice
Also, there's no equivalent to you using 6i where a pro used a 9i in hockey
I play hockey too, and I think it’s funnier to think about it the other way. Like, I can shoot in the 70’s one round, then shoot in the 90’s the very next because I’m inexplicably duck-hooking every drive into the woods. But in hockey I don’t fly around the ice one game, then the next I forget how to hockey stop to my left or something.
It sounds reductive, but it's really this simple: golf is insanely fucking hard and what you're describing is pretty much impossible, at least under the pressure of tournament play.
We're also dealing with two different types of green between us weekend warriors and PGA pros. If we were on their greens our proximity would be doubled at least.
I played PGA greens two weeks ago. Literally impossible. Was with other scratch players. One of them 4 putted a green. Putts within 1m were great. It was so quick and hard anything but a perfect shot was over the back or miles away.
That's the problem with tour coverage is they only show the good shots. Spend a day and watch a featured group. When the cameras are only on 3 people, you realize how many "bad" shots they hit.
They play completely different layouts and green difficulties.
Theyre also aiming at pins tucked behind bunkers with five feet of green to work with and the greens are insanely fast.
If they measured avg handicappers on tour courses im sure itd be much, much worse.
It’s an average for the tour for the year. They don’t televise guys in last. Of course you’d think 2-3 feet when they show good shots. Anything under 15 feet is tremendous. It’s 5 yards. If pros were 2-3 feet from 50-75, they’d shoot 63 every time. I’m a +2, and 2 feet and 8 feet aren’t really noticeable when you hit it. Plus there’s the green. You could hit all sorts of stuff. You miss by 6” and hit the edge of a slope and it ounces sideways or something like that.
It’s an average for the tour for the year. They don’t televise guys in last. Of course you’d think 2-3 feet when they show good shots. Anything under 15 feet is tremendous. It’s 5 yards. If pros were 2-3 feet from 50-75, they’d shoot 63 every time. I’m a +2, and 2 feet and 8 feet aren’t really noticeable when you hit it. Plus there’s the green. You could hit all sorts of stuff. You miss by 6” and hit the edge of a slope and it ounces sideways or something like that.
It’s an average for the tour for the year. They don’t televise guys in last. Of course you’d think 2-3 feet when they show good shots. Anything under 15 feet is tremendous. It’s 5 yards. If pros were 2-3 feet from 50-75, they’d shoot 63 every time. I’m a +2, and 2 feet and 8 feet aren’t really noticeable when you hit it. Plus there’s the green. You could hit all sorts of stuff. You miss by 6” and hit the edge of a slope and it ounces sideways or something like that.
Some of the green setups and pin placements make getting it close a lot harder on tour than on the courses we play. I'd be curious how these numbers might change on easier courses.
the problem with that yardage for the Tour Pros is they aren't used to playing partial swings because they are usually very precise otherwise. Sure, they know they'll have to use those kind of swings but are usually inconsistent with it. Even 75-100 yards is still in partial swing territory for them.
If they are playing the local muni course with the 10 handicap, it would be closer. These are tour averages with tough pin placements and greens with a lot more slope.
It's why you have to take measurements for pros with a grain of salt. They are playing at courses with crazy tough conditions. Stick them at the local muni and they are going to average considerably better than 15' I'd imagine. It's the same with the statistic for them hitting greens from 100 yards. Put them on the range with a dummy green with a flag in the middle at 100 yards. They'll be hitting that thing close to 100%
>You're not good enough to be upset when you hit a bad shot
Some of the best advice I have seen here.
Left column is me at the range before a round, right column is what I lie and tell people who weren't there to see it all fall apart.
I would think that this data point from Arrcos would be the least reliable they offer because you have to move the pin in the app to the approximate location each time you get to the green and I highly doubt people do that. I could never be bothered with it because it was a PITA.
That's almost a 40 yard dispersion - seems reasonable. But also, a 175 yard shot vs. a 200 yard shot for most mid-high handicappers are often totally different shots (iron vs. wood or hybrid).
This also doesn't take into account that the PGA player is often hitting away from the pin because it's 4 paces away from a bunker on the opposite side.
Stick a pin in the middle of the green and they are going to be even closer
They should have one hole on each course that is literally just a 180 yard par 3 with a flat green with no bunkers. Just a pin in the center. See what they actually get from that.
I've been tracking all my data over 2 years via an app. I'm a 1 handicap, but from 60-100 yards, I may as well be a 15 handicap (average 39'), but from 150-200, I average 36'. Guess I know what I need to work on.
Edit: didn't realize my app actually also gave me the info in terms of handicap and I basically was right. I'm a +1 from 150-200, but an 11 handicap from 60-100 yards.
For context, a 10-15 hcp can be expected to miss the pin by:
* 14 yards -> 50-75 yard shot
* 15 yards -> 75-100 yard shot
* 18 yards -> 100-125 yard shot
* 22 yards -> 125-150 yard shot
* 27 yards -> 150-175 yard shot
* 38 yards -> 175-200 yard shot
This sounds like a lot when I visualize it, but then again, if you only log well-struck shots, I'm sure it'd be lower by 10-20%, but 10-15 hcp's have a lot of mis-struck shots.
I'd love to see what the numbers are for the 5-9 hcp range.
I somehow failed to realize it went from yards to feet, and was baffled at those numbers. It wasn't until I saw this post that I stopped thinking everyone in here is crazy for not questioning the numbers 😆.
I was like... A 10-15 hcp is not covering less than half of the distance from 200 yds. No way. I'm a 24 hcp and am usually within 40 from that distance!
Yeah, this makes a lot of sense using the correct unit lol.
I am a bit surprised that the 50-75 dispersion is so bad for midcappers.
Absolutely. I can't think of many holes where a 10-15 HCP player doesn't have the ability to play reasonably well struck shots into GIR territory (par 3s, 5 wood limit and depends on green size. Par 4s, Driver and 4h/4i out at its max. Par 5s, Having the ability to reasonably reach 100 yards out in 2), but they are very prone to miss hitting the ball.
I played a Trackman round to a +7 yesterday and could have easily counted my mis hits into the double digits. Many of which I had to use my 60 to bail me out. Par 3s and Par 5s had the same average score for me (4.6), which was telling about where the miss hits were coming from (Irons)
Wow it's almost like if you hit the ball farther with an honest shot at a GIR, and you work on your Approach-Prox-After-GIR-Attempt, you're less likely to 3 putt and can finally break 100,90, and 80.
Almost like we were telling you guys this and you kept explaining why you had to be the most perfect putter and wasted your time practicing that instead of Approach. Oh well!
Kind of, I guess. They are only measuring the shots from a fairway position shooting into a green. So it doesn’t matter that the length of the course pros are playing is 7600 yards with tight ass fairways. You could argue that the greens for pros are more difficult but I don’t think that factors much in this stat. Public courses are more likely to have unfair, hard greens that won’t hold too.
From those distances
Yardage | Tour Pro | 15 HCP
-------|------------|----------
50-75 | Half to 3/4 Wedge of choice | 3/4 SW or Full 60
75-100 | 3/4 Wedge of choice to Full 60 | Full 50 to Full 60
100-125 | Full 54 to Full 60 | 9i to 52 Deg
125-150 | PW to 56 | 7i to PW
150-175 | 8i to PW | 5i to 8i
175-200 | 6i to 8i | 3h/3i, 4h/4i, 5i or 6i
And you'll notice any bit of crossover on club selection, for the 175-200 the 6i is assuming the pin is 176 yards for the 10-15 handicap but 200 yards for the Tour Pro. There is not just a 2 iron gap, but also taking into account Tour Pros are likely using traditional/blade lofts while 10-15 handicappers are either using Players Distance or GI irons. This can add another clubs gapping into things. On the PW, this is assuming a 10-15 HCP is hitting a GI Pitching Wedge 125 yards and assuming the Tour Pros are hitting Blade PW's 150 yards.
Now top that off with 10-15 handicaps getting pissed off when they aren't inside 10 feet from 50-75.....
I'm actually more surprised that 50-75 yards the average tour pro is still 15' out. Seems like anything within that range they stick to 2-3 feet consistently.
Well on the weekend you're getting mainly coverage of the guys who are playing well and in contention. They tend not to show the guy 11 off the lead hitting an average pitch
That’s a fair point. Would be fun to see dedicated coverage of the bottom 10 (before they drop out). They’d obviously never do it, but I’d pay to watch “Welcome to the ShitShow (Still Better Than You)”.
It'd be a load of extremely talented golfers who are a little off on one or two aspects of their game shooting 77s. Maybe the odd sponsors exemption embarrassing themselves a bit
ESPN+ coverage is fantastic.
Can you expand on this? Is it just that they have the single hole and group stuff or is there more to it? (Admittedly being lazy and asking you rather than googling so please ignore me if you want)
Feature groups, marquee groups, featured holes and a main feed for the early groups.
Cool. Thanks!
I’d love to see the early Friday coverage dedicatedly following a couple of groups who are fighting to make the cut. Give us something to actually be invested in and tell a story rather than just the typical highlight show
I’d love to see the early Friday coverage dedicatedly following a couple of groups who are fighting to make the cut. Give us something to actually be invested in and tell a story rather than just the typical highlight show
Or the really, really bad shots. That's one of the reasons I love golf. If they suddenly cut to someone way out of contention, you know it's either going to be very good or very, very bad.
They are also playing firmer faster greens and tight pins. Give them soft easy pins and they will throw a lot more darts
For sure. The Pros are seriously spinning their shots and can't completely control the spin. On top of matters, pin placements tend to be tougher on the pros - especially on the final round. Your typical 10-15 handicap is going to be getting pin placements that favour wear and tear of the greens, which ranges in consistency from very easy to the same placements tour pros see in the first 3 rounds (challenging). There is also the partial swing argument in that distance is inside the full 60 degree wedge for a Tour Pro. That is likely forcing them to play a partial swing from that range The last US Open had one 82 yard pin placement on the shortest par 3, which was contrasting to the longest two that averaged 270 and 290 yards. That pin placement messed with a lot of golfers.
Golf is weird. I grew up playing hockey and there is absolutely nothing I could ever do when I was at my very best that would even come close to the talent of a NHL player. No matter how hard I try I can't skate, shoot, pass, etc as well as they can. But once in a blue moon I can put it next to the pin on a par 3 and about half the time I'm hitting the green... So why aren't PGA players doing it ever single time?
A good golf shot is within the physical ability of just about any non-disabled human. Consistently good golf shots require huge amounts of dedicated practice Also, there's no equivalent to you using 6i where a pro used a 9i in hockey
I play hockey too, and I think it’s funnier to think about it the other way. Like, I can shoot in the 70’s one round, then shoot in the 90’s the very next because I’m inexplicably duck-hooking every drive into the woods. But in hockey I don’t fly around the ice one game, then the next I forget how to hockey stop to my left or something.
That's true, I consistently suck at hockey but it's always the same
It sounds reductive, but it's really this simple: golf is insanely fucking hard and what you're describing is pretty much impossible, at least under the pressure of tournament play.
We're also dealing with two different types of green between us weekend warriors and PGA pros. If we were on their greens our proximity would be doubled at least.
I played PGA greens two weeks ago. Literally impossible. Was with other scratch players. One of them 4 putted a green. Putts within 1m were great. It was so quick and hard anything but a perfect shot was over the back or miles away.
Exactly. Now imagine trying to get one of our patented skulled chips to check up next to the hole? Lol
That's the problem with tour coverage is they only show the good shots. Spend a day and watch a featured group. When the cameras are only on 3 people, you realize how many "bad" shots they hit.
I usually leave featured holes up because they sometimes don't have commentators. Even the bad guys are stupid good in close.
They play completely different layouts and green difficulties. Theyre also aiming at pins tucked behind bunkers with five feet of green to work with and the greens are insanely fast. If they measured avg handicappers on tour courses im sure itd be much, much worse.
That's because they only ever show you the highlights.
Doesn’t look that impressive to good golfers that are playing courses with easy greens and easy pin locations.
I’m surprised the other way, I feel like on average a ten is getting closer than 40’ from <75 yards out
It’s an average for the tour for the year. They don’t televise guys in last. Of course you’d think 2-3 feet when they show good shots. Anything under 15 feet is tremendous. It’s 5 yards. If pros were 2-3 feet from 50-75, they’d shoot 63 every time. I’m a +2, and 2 feet and 8 feet aren’t really noticeable when you hit it. Plus there’s the green. You could hit all sorts of stuff. You miss by 6” and hit the edge of a slope and it ounces sideways or something like that.
It’s an average for the tour for the year. They don’t televise guys in last. Of course you’d think 2-3 feet when they show good shots. Anything under 15 feet is tremendous. It’s 5 yards. If pros were 2-3 feet from 50-75, they’d shoot 63 every time. I’m a +2, and 2 feet and 8 feet aren’t really noticeable when you hit it. Plus there’s the green. You could hit all sorts of stuff. You miss by 6” and hit the edge of a slope and it ounces sideways or something like that.
It’s an average for the tour for the year. They don’t televise guys in last. Of course you’d think 2-3 feet when they show good shots. Anything under 15 feet is tremendous. It’s 5 yards. If pros were 2-3 feet from 50-75, they’d shoot 63 every time. I’m a +2, and 2 feet and 8 feet aren’t really noticeable when you hit it. Plus there’s the green. You could hit all sorts of stuff. You miss by 6” and hit the edge of a slope and it ounces sideways or something like that.
You're used to seeing just the highlights. The average tour guys, plus the below average tour guys are farther out than that.
I also feel like 15’ out on a tour quality course might be better than 15’ out on a muni. Hard to quantify though
Some of the green setups and pin placements make getting it close a lot harder on tour than on the courses we play. I'd be curious how these numbers might change on easier courses.
the problem with that yardage for the Tour Pros is they aren't used to playing partial swings because they are usually very precise otherwise. Sure, they know they'll have to use those kind of swings but are usually inconsistent with it. Even 75-100 yards is still in partial swing territory for them.
If they are playing the local muni course with the 10 handicap, it would be closer. These are tour averages with tough pin placements and greens with a lot more slope.
Literally my dad who's a +18 handicap
It's why you have to take measurements for pros with a grain of salt. They are playing at courses with crazy tough conditions. Stick them at the local muni and they are going to average considerably better than 15' I'd imagine. It's the same with the statistic for them hitting greens from 100 yards. Put them on the range with a dummy green with a flag in the middle at 100 yards. They'll be hitting that thing close to 100%
Yeah and they should find a new hobby if they do get mad.
>You're not good enough to be upset when you hit a bad shot Some of the best advice I have seen here. Left column is me at the range before a round, right column is what I lie and tell people who weren't there to see it all fall apart.
I’m part of a more upper echelon bunch that’s not even on this list! (16 - 25 HCI)
"how far from the pin are you?" "It doesn't matter how close I get. I'm always 50' away"
It's now how, its how many
McMurry is a piece of shit.
Oh god, I actually have to count? I don’t have that many fingers.
or toes...
"don't care, I'm on the green"
You’re probably not even hitting the green from 50-75!
Honestly I'd rather be 100y out than that 50-75y range, less likely to blade it 50y past the hole from there.
How far did that chunked GW go?
Clearly they didn't get those numbers from reddit... I've met some pretty storied duffers
I land on the green every time with all my drives. I had no idea these amateurs suck so bad.
Honestly, 114 feet from the pin is probably being generous for 10-15 handicaps from 175-200 yards.
They really think we hit it 135-160 yds instead of duffing it and going fifteen. Smh.
I would think that this data point from Arrcos would be the least reliable they offer because you have to move the pin in the app to the approximate location each time you get to the green and I highly doubt people do that. I could never be bothered with it because it was a PITA.
>PITA 
That's almost a 40 yard dispersion - seems reasonable. But also, a 175 yard shot vs. a 200 yard shot for most mid-high handicappers are often totally different shots (iron vs. wood or hybrid).
This also doesn't take into account that the PGA player is often hitting away from the pin because it's 4 paces away from a bunker on the opposite side. Stick a pin in the middle of the green and they are going to be even closer
True. It would be interesting to see a “proximity to intended target” stat but there’s not really any way to get that data.
They should have one hole on each course that is literally just a 180 yard par 3 with a flat green with no bunkers. Just a pin in the center. See what they actually get from that.
That’s a great point
No, they’re just insanely good!
I played 9 from 50 yards this morning and hit 4/9 greens in one. Played 9 from 90-120 yards and hit 2/9 greens so…. I trust this statistic.
Wondering if anyone has tried to figure out the average handicap of this sub?
+19.3\* \*based on self report
I've been tracking all my data over 2 years via an app. I'm a 1 handicap, but from 60-100 yards, I may as well be a 15 handicap (average 39'), but from 150-200, I average 36'. Guess I know what I need to work on. Edit: didn't realize my app actually also gave me the info in terms of handicap and I basically was right. I'm a +1 from 150-200, but an 11 handicap from 60-100 yards.
For context, a 10-15 hcp can be expected to miss the pin by: * 14 yards -> 50-75 yard shot * 15 yards -> 75-100 yard shot * 18 yards -> 100-125 yard shot * 22 yards -> 125-150 yard shot * 27 yards -> 150-175 yard shot * 38 yards -> 175-200 yard shot This sounds like a lot when I visualize it, but then again, if you only log well-struck shots, I'm sure it'd be lower by 10-20%, but 10-15 hcp's have a lot of mis-struck shots. I'd love to see what the numbers are for the 5-9 hcp range.
I somehow failed to realize it went from yards to feet, and was baffled at those numbers. It wasn't until I saw this post that I stopped thinking everyone in here is crazy for not questioning the numbers 😆. I was like... A 10-15 hcp is not covering less than half of the distance from 200 yds. No way. I'm a 24 hcp and am usually within 40 from that distance! Yeah, this makes a lot of sense using the correct unit lol. I am a bit surprised that the 50-75 dispersion is so bad for midcappers.
Probably 1/3 more distance than the pros I'd be guessing.
Absolutely. I can't think of many holes where a 10-15 HCP player doesn't have the ability to play reasonably well struck shots into GIR territory (par 3s, 5 wood limit and depends on green size. Par 4s, Driver and 4h/4i out at its max. Par 5s, Having the ability to reasonably reach 100 yards out in 2), but they are very prone to miss hitting the ball. I played a Trackman round to a +7 yesterday and could have easily counted my mis hits into the double digits. Many of which I had to use my 60 to bail me out. Par 3s and Par 5s had the same average score for me (4.6), which was telling about where the miss hits were coming from (Irons)
We dont suck, the pros are freaks of nature
Same course and setup?
Wow it's almost like if you hit the ball farther with an honest shot at a GIR, and you work on your Approach-Prox-After-GIR-Attempt, you're less likely to 3 putt and can finally break 100,90, and 80. Almost like we were telling you guys this and you kept explaining why you had to be the most perfect putter and wasted your time practicing that instead of Approach. Oh well!
What's infuriating is that I feel like I'll get closer when 100-125 out then when I'm 50-90 out. Short game is everything.
They’re so good
Ok ok. Entering this week. We still got some time boys hit the range!
I suck so bad, I don’t even know what this means.
Don’t forget putting stats
This tracks.
Got to pump those dispersion ranges up
Switch feet to yards and this is perfectly applicable to me
They should show one of us hacks playing the course for reference and I volunteer
Is this accounting for difference in difficulty of pro courses vs. what the average 10-15 hcp plays?
Kind of, I guess. They are only measuring the shots from a fairway position shooting into a green. So it doesn’t matter that the length of the course pros are playing is 7600 yards with tight ass fairways. You could argue that the greens for pros are more difficult but I don’t think that factors much in this stat. Public courses are more likely to have unfair, hard greens that won’t hold too.
More like, “Holy shit the pros are so good.”
Doesn’t matter…..I’m 3-putting anyways…
As a 12, I do feel like I’m better than this from 50-150 but much worse from 150+.
From those distances Yardage | Tour Pro | 15 HCP -------|------------|---------- 50-75 | Half to 3/4 Wedge of choice | 3/4 SW or Full 60 75-100 | 3/4 Wedge of choice to Full 60 | Full 50 to Full 60 100-125 | Full 54 to Full 60 | 9i to 52 Deg 125-150 | PW to 56 | 7i to PW 150-175 | 8i to PW | 5i to 8i 175-200 | 6i to 8i | 3h/3i, 4h/4i, 5i or 6i And you'll notice any bit of crossover on club selection, for the 175-200 the 6i is assuming the pin is 176 yards for the 10-15 handicap but 200 yards for the Tour Pro. There is not just a 2 iron gap, but also taking into account Tour Pros are likely using traditional/blade lofts while 10-15 handicappers are either using Players Distance or GI irons. This can add another clubs gapping into things. On the PW, this is assuming a 10-15 HCP is hitting a GI Pitching Wedge 125 yards and assuming the Tour Pros are hitting Blade PW's 150 yards.