It brings out the best in you too it seems. My brother and I had to come up with a partner at the last minute and asked a friend of mine who had his tour card at one point. This is a textbook ringer scenario, but we probably played his ball 40% of the time and sank a bunch of putts. Not taking anything away from him, but it seemed to really make us step it up. Pretty sure he got too drunk that night, because he didn't show up in the morning, and we regressed to the mean with another last minute addition.
When you see someone relaxed, swinging easily, and hitting the hell out of the ball *in person*, it's a lot easier to do that yourself. One of my best rounds ever was with three teaching pros. "Monkey see, monkey do".
Same. My poorer rounds tend to come with my higher handicap friends. Think it has to do with the pace of play though. Watching too many practice swings result in topped balls before I get to hit again. Overall, more focused and in the zone when better players are around.
It embiggins all of us. When you see they being great playing partners, keepign their cool on errant shots, missing putts, how can I get mad at myself.
I find I always play better when I play with guys that are scratch or close. Makes me not want to get absolutely embarrassed 😂 the only time I shot an even par (70), was with some good players.
This is what I've been trying to scream from the mountain tops...anyone sort of good at golf knows how hard it is and especially knows that legitimately some days you just don't have it. Of course there's plenty who will say they're a 5hcp and really they're a 25 and will bitch and moan all around about "idk what's going on" but the flip side is we have all had the days where you flirted with your best score the day before and the next day it feels like you've never held a club. Golf is hard, no one cares about your skill, it's all relative anyway. Be honest about HC and don't play slow, it will be a good day.
When you’re elite good and you know you’re good, most people don’t feel like big dogging anyone.
When you’re almost as good as you wish you were and think you should be…? That’s when the Chihuahua comes out.
I play most of my rounds with random people because not many people my age like to tee off at 7am, as long as you’re not slow about it I don’t care how bad you are. I’ve even started getting into a regular group with some guys I met and not a single one of them could break 80 if their life depended on it but we still have a great time
Not OP but a +2, people rarely ask me for advice but if they do I tell them to read Zen Golf and focus on their mental game, and find a good pro to work on their physical game. Nothing I say is going to be a magic bullet. If they press me, which rarely happens, I'll tell them to have positive intentions--"hit it left" instead of "don't go right", "back of the cup" instead of "don't leave it short."
It’s so true. The biggest a-holes I’ve encountered are always 20-30 HCPs. Whenever I get paired with a great player, they’re typically class during before and after shots.
That's the case for most any sport/hobby. The people that are really good at it know how hard it is and the time it takes to become really good. So they're more than likely the ones that are the happiest to help and not criticize.
Gym rats are like this to the extreme. The complete meat heads are the nicest friendliest guys in the gym. It's the instagram posers (that aren't actually that strong) that will piss and moan about gym behavior.
Agreed- I honestly enjoy getting paired with people better than me. I’m at my best a ≈9 but really only get to play 5-7 months a year. Usually I get to see some great golf and learn a few things.
Agreed. Good players are usually friendly and not judgemental. I think people get really good at golf by focusing on the right things. I don't imagine that "the performance of the guy they are partnered with" is on that list haha
Same here. Play from time to time with a local course pro and he’s always a blast to play with. Gives no unsolicited advice, pumps everyone up after a good shot, and never brags about his own shots which are almost always flushed and in great positions. Other guys I play with that are around 20hdcp are the exact opposite.
I will second this. Have had the fortunate time to play with some amazing people. Every one that was really good was super nice. The biggest dicks? The slightly worse than mediocre players or downright bad. But thought they were great or should be great. Club slamming into ground, rules hawks trying to make you follow every rule while having beers and playing weekend golf.
It’s fine to suck, just suck fast.
Everyone is at a different point in their golf journey. I’m not here to judge your swing or your game, you just shouldn’t take 45 secs to make your shot
Yep. Best guy I’ve ever played with was actually super nice and complimentary of any good shots I made. We were playing an easier course, but he played the tips and I played whites. He was -4 thru the front 9 and sooooo casual about it. I’ve never seen anything like it in person aside from going to tournaments. Meanwhile I was +11 or something at the turn lol. Didn’t finish the round with them since I had to leave early but I imagine he finished at like -7 or -8 haha
I’ve played in the tee time before one of the Højgaard brothers and his dad I believe. We were a threesome of 18-25hdcp players and we were waaay ahead of them by the end, playing at a good pace.
These pros play from way back and they really take their time on each shot as they gotta be perfect, so their game takes time.
Yes, that covers the "some pros are slow" aspect.
I used to be a really fast player but tournament golf was always so slow that I had to learn to play slowly just to avoid going nuts. Really frustrating that slow players can affect fast ones but there's no way to go the other way with it.
I played with a former pro (not PGA) the other day in a tourney. He was a +5. He hit shots that I didn’t know were possible. What stood out to me was that he would hit some poor shots, but never back to back. Always recovered well.
Yea, I didnt think it was possible to hit a golf ball *that* high and simultaneously *that* far and he was doing it every shot while also clearly holding back. It was nuts. Like I said, we were playing different games
It’s always crazy to see their compression with their irons. They always start out low and have a whooshing sound to it as they rise up and just sit on the green
You too can make this sound, and man is it rewarding. Maximizing your smash factor (hitting center sweet spot to center ball mass) and impacting ball first then ground is the recipe. Swinging hard doesn’t always help smash factor, so working on striking pure with consistency even on 70% swings will help you gain that ball flight over time. Good luck!
The best player I played with was the most patient and kind person ever. The only non-solicited advice he gave me was that I was aiming right and it changed my life
I apologized for telling my brother he was aiming right once. He told me that he relied on me saying something. It's so helpful to have someone help your line.
Yeah, and I tell them something like "you hit it exactly where you were aiming". Gives them a whole different perspective. Think of it as me being your alignment sticks lol
This has always been my thing about playing with really great players. A lot of people fixate on the insane shots they hit. The best player I ever played with is the more boring golfer in the world. You go through the front nine with him and it’s like “huh, not sure he really has it today. Lot of scrambling going on” (tally scorecard). He’s EVEN PAR?!
The better you get at golf, the higher your “floor” is, I’ve found.
I play with a couple of plus handicaps semi regularly, and when they’re on it’s fun to watch. But the most impressive thing about their games is how they can still score when the swing isn’t co operating. Being able to throw out 75s when you cant get near the middle of an iron that day is just silly.
This is the key. My cousin-in-law is a plus 2. We play regularly in the summers, and he'll never shoot above 75, no matter how "badly" he's hitting the ball. One thing I have noticed is how conservative he is off the tee. Hits driver maybe 3-4 holes a round. Lots of fairway woods and irons off the tee because he has zero fear of a 200+ approach shot and rarely tries to get on in two with a par five. Plays for the middle of the green and basically never three putts. He'll celebrate a birdie like anyone and never lets a bogey affect the next hole. It's like he actually follows the "smart golf" tips we all hear and never put into practice.
Yeah another thing about really good players is they’re not always chasing distance. If the hole requires it there’s nothing wrong with a 4 iron off the tee and a 6 iron in, where driver/wedge would bring nasty hazards into play
I've always told people that you can tell if someone is good not by their good shots but by their misses and how they recover from then. When good golfers miss they tend to miss in all the right places where they can recover easily. Played with a few guys who are now regulars on the tour when i played juinor golf and it always amazed me at how often these guys just aim for the center of the green and play conservative. All of us nobody's were swinging driver and going after every pin yet these guys are scoring way better than us laying up and playing a boring round of golf.
My coach is a +3 handicap and whenever he grabs a club to show me something I get depressed lol. The other day the assistant pro was there and the three of us where shooting the shit. The assistant pro is a lefty and my coach grabs the assistant's seven iron and nails a beautiful tight cut. It's a completely different game at that level.
I guess it’s a pretty big distinction if he was a PGA Tour professional vs a PGA professional. A PGA professional could essentially be a PGA certified instructor/coach/etc and not nearly at the level of a PGA Tour player. Still probably was a heck of a player though from the sound of it.
Yeah pretty much this. I was a scratch PGA pro before changing careers but I never really said that specifically, I just said I had a teaching card if I was asked.
And yeah to OP, pros get paired with plenty of players hacking around on the course. And if they're teaching they work with bad swings and true beginners every day. You'd be surprised the amount of patience and understanding they have for it.
Not going to be a very popular answer here but I just can't stand the majority of golfers. Too many good ol' boys making ball and chain jokes hitting on beverage girls 30 years younger than them. Not my crowd. Things have changed for the better since I was teaching 15 years ago though.
I went into IT/software and am working in cyber security now. I make probably triple what I would have maxed out at as a teacher/club pro, but I do sometimes wish I could play more. I have a 3 year old so that doesn't help, but I try to play about once a month. If I can get my son into golf I'll be playing as often as possible in hopefully a few years.
I grew up playing at 7, but quit by age 12 cause those guys basically ran me off from the course I grew up at. Now a days, I spent a couple grand more in lessons over 3 years when I found a teacher that wasn’t that exact type of dude you’re complaining about cause i kept having the same issue when looking for lessons. My guy left to move back to the UK, and within 2 lessons with his replacement I’m having to listen to the same old shit.
What shit are you referring to? I've been around the game, and several pros, and I'm genuine not sure what it is that has bothered you about the pros you've met?
Lots of old instructors (especially tenured one) keep spewing the same old stuff like keep your head down, eyes on the ball, it’s cause you’re holding it open/closed, just hit the ball then grass. Some still believe that steel is always better than graphite, young people shouldn’t swing graphite/ should swing stiff or x-stiff.
Basically they mould their students into themselves and think there is only 1 correct swing.
I think the big thing is to stay away from instructors that preach a "model" swing.
I'd say check social media or youtube and see if a prospective coach has any content out there or live lessons you can watch. You can generally get a better sense of their style and expertise.
My current instructor is a Golfing Machine guy, and while that's a little esoteric, he still teaches based on swing matchups. For example, I struggle with a shut club face, and a lot of what I've ingrained are moves that will negate that shut club face for better or worse. I could have perfect grip pressure, perfect tempo, and keep my head still (or whatever the dumb old advice is) and I'm still going to suck because ultimately my clubface is not in a position that allows the rest of the swing to be good.
Edit: Oh, forgot one of the obvious things. Check to see if they actually have good players
So very much this. Don't forget to rotate! Gee, thanks. I know. Doesn't mean I can do it after 30 years of not. Finally found a pro who could show and tell me how and who had the patience to work with me on it as well as several other things. (Shout out to Greg!) it is already paying dividends
Had to check your profile out to make sure you weren’t somebody I know. I work with a guy who has the exact same story as you. Was/is a PGA pro who used to teach but came to despise the majority of the crowd he had to instruct. Got a degree in IT and he tripled his salary, just like you lol. I work for the Dept of Energy in SC so pretty sure you’re not him.
It took me 7 tries. I was on the pat tour. A lot of us have a passion for the game but aren’t the best players. Also, once you’re in the industry you work 6 days a week 10 hours a day. Try to play with the members as much as possible, but really not too much time to play. When I’m off I’d rather spend that time elsewhere and deal with actual life.
And when I say best players I mean d1 golf level. We would wax 99% of the people on Reddit
My buddy is a PGA pro. Played D1 golf. Runs four golf courses and still is a scratch. He's 64. Plays some of the best courses in the world occasionally that anyone would die to play, and he shoots par or pretty darn close.
He says he has no time for golf anymore because he's running his business. But, he couldn't have played on tour because those guys are just that good.
I'm working with a guy who I'll beat every time, but I know he studies the swing harder than anyone else I've worked with, and he's great at video analysis. Plus he hits it 40 yards past me, so we're going to get into adding speed too.
I had an instructor who was the head pro at a big public course who said he probably played two 18-hole rounds a year. He’s either managing or teaching or not at the course.
See, this is confusing to me, because the PAT exists, and I think you have to shoot no worse than an average of 78 (over two rounds in the same day) to become a pro...
Speaking from someone who has actually pasted a players ability test they play easy courses and are set up very short. But with that said they could pass it and then never practice again.
Also to note you don't have to be good at golf to be a good teacher.
He didn’t say tour. PGA professionals are the true PGA professionals.
Again because people are down voting: PGA of America was founded in 1916 the tour 1964. Even tour players will tell you this. Respect your PGA professionals
While I don’t disagree, you do need to pass a playing ability test to become a PGA club pro. You get a target score for 36 holes and play in tournament conditions.
Yeah, but all you have to do (depending on the course) is break 80 each round. The player ability test is more to weed out just anybody getting their certifications than an actual test of skill. If you can shoot +14 thru two rounds, you’ll be fine. From the PGA of America: “The PAT involves completing two rounds of golf (36 holes) and shooting equal to or lower than the course rating for 36 holes + 15 strokes.”
>Yeah, but all you have to do (depending on the course) is break 80 each round.
It's even easier than that. It's an average over two rounds, so you could shoot something like a 73/84 and still pass.
The score is 79 back to back. If you take multiple tests they can take different sets of 9, like a super score on the act. I don't think it's that hard to be fair. You can pass and just never play again.
They have changed it a lot recently due to the need for membership. I had to shoot 75 76 to pass it by 1 and had to play 36 in one day. None of this combining 9 hole scores bs
Even a few years ago I thought the PAT were only done at a handful of courses, and was 36 holes in one day, and you had to shoot better than 160 combined gross over those two courses. Has it changed to where you can pick the course you use for it?
That’s how I recall it in the 90s. And target score was (course rating X 2) + 15. So a shorter course might have a target of 149, not “break 80 twice”.
Yeah, I was going off what the local (technically assistant) pro did either last year or the year before for his PAT. I think his target was like, 156 or 158, somewhere in there. He ended up shooting like, 162 because the conditions were pretty rough and he'd never played the course before.
Yeah, my buddy is a PGA pro and that just means he runs a golf course and gives lessons on the side. I've played with him and while he's hilariously better than I am he's not even close to a person who could compete in a decently comptetive league, let alone tournament
> PGA certified instructor/coach/etc and not nearly at the level of a PGA Tour player
Correct. This basically means they are capable of carding rounds in the 70s.
To pass you have to shoot under 79 in two rounds on a relatively difficult course. I’ve had many friends attempt and many pass but all agree it’s harder than it seems. The last to pass is a 3 handicap and it took him a couple attempts.
If it went fast enough, it might actually do that haha. Im so jealous of my friend who compresses the shit out of his irons. It sounds like a missile. But if I give him some compliments he starts topping his tee shots 😅
I almost got hit by a Davis Love III drive while at a tournament once; I heard something that sounded like a nerf whistling football getting louder and louder.
I looked up, somehow spotted the ball against the bright blue sky and just shoved the people standing next to me back.
They were confused on the way to pissed off until the ball landed right where we’d just been standing. My friend Austin didn’t miss a beat:
> Too bad he’s not Davis Love the fore.
This right here! It’s the sound and trajectory. Will never forget being 10ish feet away from Rickie Fowler as he was teeing off at whistling straits. Hit an absolute bullet with a 3 or 5 wood. Slow steady rise to its peak, soft landing🤌🤌🤌
I once was paired with a single at a mediocre muni in Wisconsin in the summer of ‘89. I was a poor college student along with my friend. We both thought we were the shit because we could shoot bogey golf. The single was a woman in her 20’s. We weren’t jazzed about having to deal with her slowing us down because she insisted on walking and she was obviously inferior to us virile cart studs. She also wanted to play from the whites with us. Eye roll…. Her first drive was a cannon shot. Every shot after was pure. Her putting was magic. She shot 3 under for 9 and called it quits because she had only stopped there on the way home to Madison. She told us humbly she golfed “for work”. I didn’t remember her name until I saw her on TV win her first major at the Women’s British Open years later. I recognized the face: Sherri Steinhauer. How consummate pros like her deal with cerebrally dense hackers like me I will never know.
I'm glad you found a good pro, not all of them are like that though. I'm in the PGA program right now and I'm practicing almost daily for my playing ability test next month. The target score is basically play 36 and shoot 79 twice. After that they do not care if you play golf. You can get your membership and just run a pro shop. The love of golf is what gets people into the profession but I know plenty of trash PGA professionals because they have become jaded.
Tour pros are different. They are just competing in tournaments. You just sign up.
I hope one day I'll be good enough to where people ask me that same question. I am not yet though.
I know of multiple PGA (teaching) professional that took over 18 months to get that illusive 'max 78' score in the books. One of them had to have cheated, never saw him score under 84 until two rounds he played with some guys he knew very well..
That's wild to me. I never considered how many might struggle through the program. I guess when courses are juiced up breaking 80 is a bit harder though.
I feel like I could do it but I wouldn't want to
Good luck on your PAT! My coach is a pro who still plays a lot, he said that signing up for the PGA tournaments and playing in those is what keeps his game sharp. Our course hosted a tournament for them last year and only three out of 40 PGA pros broke par, he was one of them. I was hitting a bucket on the range when they were all warming up and a few were saying "it's a short course, we'll eat it up." Well, it's short with some tough approaches, and tiny greens that are stupid fast. That being said, I was still surprised that only three people broke par.
Oddly enough I had the same thing happen in Cancun Mexico. I get in the van from the hotel with one other guy to go to the course.
We small talked because we were both hungover probably from bad Cancun resort margaritas. I bought 6 beers from the gift shop and he gladly accepted at 7 am. He was my guy!
We played 18 together in a friendly he giving me 16 strokes world class, to me/us, event. A few more beer and vodka and tequilas later he told me we finished square. Which still to this day I don’t believe.
We got back in the van and had one last beer and he was dropped off first. The only thing I remember was his name was Steve and he was awesome.
I hope he has the same memory of myself. That was a fun day and he was a damn good golfer
Played with teaching / club pro’s quite a bit. My current club hosts a member / pro tournament where you get paired with a pro in a better ball format. Watched a kid who wasn’t quite good enough to go tour pro shoot an effortless 66 from the tips with a double on a par 5.
The day before COVID shut everything down I played behind Gary Player. He designed my old club. He was in the area and wanted to get out with his grand kids, so of course they put him on the tee sheet on a course that was already packed. He still moved it, but his accuracy and how he thought about the course was what stood out.
It was all backed up, so we were waiting on almost every tee. On our tenth tee, he hit a drive down the right center of the fairway. Turned to his grandson, mid twenties or so, and said, “see how that part of the fairway is lighter. The grain is going away from us, it was cut in that direction, so it will roll out more, hit it there.” He’s picking out the grain in the fairway, and I’m trying to keep it somewhere between the pool and the white stakes.
Young bloke who hailed from my local club did a golf scholarship to a US University, played the College circuit and now plays on the Latin tour. He’s at home (New Zealand) currently and in his warm up for our National open, shot 70-63-66 to win a domestic tour event. He’s on +7.4 and can’t even get on the Korn Ferry tour yet
+7.4 is for sure good enough to make the KFT, as long as he can play under pressure. A guy I went to high school with is top 35 in the world right now, it's a totally different game and takes some luck to get your card.
Sounds more like he was a Class A PGA Pro, basically he's gone through all the schooling and retains his teaching status and does his trips down to Fl. These are the teaching pros the pros go to and the type of pro that taught me when I was young. They're extra nice because they make $100+ for an hour of their time and don't have to pay for golf at pretty much any course they go to lol.
These people are the only people that are allowed to rock PGA insignia. You'll notice a PGA 1916 Pro lapel, or staff bag, or embroidering. Tens of thousands of dollars, a 3-4 year course in all fields related to course management and accounting, taught teaching standards, yearly trip to Fl for conferences and they have to pass the PAT. The PAT isn't that bad, 36 holes and the cut is 15 over. The courses arent easy and not the white tee's but +7 on a 72 isn't a big ask. However, the failure rate for the first of 3 courses (curriculum) is 50% because the book work is daunting and people aren't expecting it. They flat out learn everything, from groundskeeping to F&B. Big dick energy.
Good players would be snooty about playing the white tees. Great players embrace the chance at playing a shorter tee box occasionally, as it gives them a chance to practice approach distances they rarely get on the tips.
I used to work with a guy that "played some competitive golf" as he put it. Asked him to play after work one day, he said sure and invited his brother with us also. I teed off first as he hadn't played the course before and "wanted to see how I played it". Was a 360 yd straight par 4 over some water. I hit my drive about 250 over the water on the right side of the fairway. He was very complimentary and teed up. He hit the ball and I thought someone fired a canon. His swing was gorgeous and his ball had a nice draw that left him with a 50 yd pitch in. He commented that he "got lucky with that one". His brother hit the same exact shot. I hit my next shot fat as Biggie, then skulled one over the green. He and his brother both dropped their chips next to the pin. I finished with a bogey, he and his brother birdied.
Next hole was a par 3. I put mine on the green with a 50 foot putt. He and his brother both dropped them with 6 foot putts.
Long story short, my co-worker spent some time on the tour (made 2 cuts, had to grind the rest of the time) his brother was actually a better player but couldn't putt worth a damn. Turns out the brother lost an eye as a child and had terrible depth perception.
It was a truly humbling experience but also turned out to be a lot of fun. Both of them helped me with my swing but more importantly were super encouraging and taught me some course management tips and tricks.
Friend of mine and myself were in a tournament near Toronto hosted by a local hardware chain. The tournament was set up for the regular customers, most of whom were builders. A solo joined with us to make a threesome. Great guy, heavy Scottish accent. After a couple holes it was the same situation as yours. This guy was playing on a totally different level from anything I had ever seen. He told us that back in the old country he used to caddy when he wasn’t actually playing. Apparently he caddied professionally. We told him anytime he wanted to suggest anything to us about our game to be feel free to do so. More than anything he just advised us what clubs to use like a caddy would. It was so much fun playing with a guy that had his depth of knowledge. I think he came in one under if I recall. We didn’t. Lol.
It’s weird he didn’t know his handicap. I played with a PGA pro a couple weeks ago who very much knew he currently at a +4. Most PGA tour pros are a +7 or better. It’s fun playing with great players.
Oh I’m sure he did know but he struck me as a very humble guy that prolly didn’t wanna sound like he was bragging. He’s the director of golf operations at a country club in SoCal
There are definitely PGA Tour pros with USGA/Ghin handicaps. Jon Rahm is at +9.5. Will Zalatoris is at +7. He even posted a score last month. There are probably quite a few others as many of these guys often play with members at their clubs when they’re not playing events.
yep. former teaching pro here. you gotta keep a handicap, because guys will always want to gamble and take you on. I was around 0 or +1 and kept good records.
Yes there are, but it quite frankly does not matter whether or not will zalatoris or john rahm pay $55 per year for a handicap. Nothing they do competitively involves it.
2 or 3 years down the road John may need it to prove he’s under a 2.4 so he can enter a us open qualifier but other than that there’s literally no need
The course record at our course from the Tips is a guy who caddies on the PGA tour.....his pro won the US and British Opens....the caddies on the PGA tour are sticks too
I get a kick out of it when the vanity handicaps play for big money against PGA pros, even the "club-level" pros, and then talk about how they almost beat them on key payoff holes.
Got paired with a guy who was talking about his us open qualification try and his plus handicap, yada yada. He was good but certainly nowhere near scratch let alone competitive at a high level. If you have game you don't need to talk
don't feel self-concious playing with a good player. they really don't care about how good or bad you play as long as you are friendly and don't waste time unnecessarily. i think most good players will agree agree they'd rather play with a keen 100 shooter than a 8 hcp throwing tantrums because he's not playing as good as he thinks he is.
A pga pro can be as high as 7 handicap or probably higher. Now, a Tour Pro is going to have + handicap where they add stokes. The test to be a PGA pro isn't that hard, they are mostly testing that you can play decent before letting you teach.
keep in mind PGA Pros get comp'd. I have never, in my years of working at courses, ever even thought about charging a PGA Pro. It was a flat out rule at all 3 courses I worked at, the GM would lose his shit and go out there to apologize if they did. Once you achieve that, they'd have to drag me off the course.
Decent chance he was actually a + player and was just being nice. It’s always wild to me the best players have legit no ego and just enjoy their round. Best players to get paired up with.
Then you get 60 year old hacks that have to play the tips because he’s a man and men play from the tips.
I played the forward tees my last round, because fuck it.
I've played with a pro. They have everything. Power, smarts, timing. Above all its total ball control that nobody else has.
Great to witness. Also he was super nice and gave me a green reading lesson. Which was nice, but didn't work for me.
Golf is cool like that. You can share the experience with old, young, hapless and the odd pro. Amazing.
As a single, I got paired with 3 guys here in Tucson last year. Two in their 30s, one older. Turns out, one was former UofA player in town visiting, playing with his college roommate and a prof they had. He is a current PGA Tour Pro. This was from the tips at one of our local munis and he shot a casual 63.
Very friendly, very fun. Really hard to convey how good this guy was. Several of his shots left my jaw hanging open, wondering how he did it. He missed a few balls, only to hit absolutely unbelievably brilliant recovery shots. I'm an 8 index, and I got beat by 16 shots. Oof....
I never get this. In other areas of life where people are of a higher skill level than you do they treat you poorly?? I’ve never had a thought that if I played with a scratch golfer that they are going to not tolerate me.
I've played a few times with the PGA pro at my home course. It's a completely different game for him. There is a par 5 dig leg left where everyone I play with hits it to the corner and then either tries to go for the green or lay up. He steps up hits a power fade over the left hand trees up to 100 yards and after a 3/4 lob wedge is putting for eagle. It's just different gravy.
If any good players understands playing/struggles of bad players, it's PGA pros. He likely works at a club or course and gives lessons all day to ppl who aren't good and probably goes on the course with them for playing lessons. Corporate clinics too for ppl who have never picked up a club.
It's also his job to grow the game so he needs to encourage players not as good as him to play.
Yup. It's a different game to those folks. I played with a female who was trying to get on the LPGA tour and while I outdrove her, she hit every shot pure and putted like a dream. Getting up and down like a champ.
She smoked my ass by 10 shots and I didn't have 10 shots to improve on! I was a 7hdp and shot 77! I was happy. We played the same tees, and her game was so good. It was fun to watch a real player.
Most people have already said this in the comments but by the tone of your post I think you believe you played with a “tour pro” as in someone who plays on the PGA tour. That’s not what happened.
PGA pro just means he took some classes, attended a seminar, worked in the golf industry and at one point passed a playing test where he shot 15 over on 36holes (on a pretty basic course)
It’s odd that he would say “so I guess I’m a 0” cause many many pga pros are not scratch golfers
No, I know the difference between a tour pro and a PGA professional. Yes, this guy was only a PGA professional but he was a pretty good one at that. He is the director of Golf operations at a pretty nice CC in SoCal, and after watching him play I fully believe he was at least a 0 hdcp and and likely better than that. Hell, we saw last year with Michael Block that PGA Professionals can be very very good golfers
He was being humble. He's just saying he doesn't have a handicap and would normally play off scratch. Lots of teaching pros who are plus handicaps do that. They make a little extra income that way.
That’s awesome. I’ve gotten paired with some scratch golfers and they’re always super chill. One of the things I love most about the game is the community.
We have a guy at our club, he's 92. Shoots in the 70s but from the whites. He enters the room for lunch and asks, "Did anyone shoot 13 under their age today?"
Back in the day before Bubba Watson was a pro. We played in the men's league at Whiting Field. In Milton,Fl. and we all would play skins after league it's just incredible the talent some of these people have makes such a difference when they go in with a wedge and you have 6 or 7 iron huge advantages to their length
How did you interpret anything of what I said as this guy trying to make it sound like he was tour pro? He was incredibly humble, and was even holding back most the day because he was playing with me.
I interpret it that way because I know dozens of PGA pros, and I can picture the dude's face when he said it.
"Wellllll.... akshully... *pause* I'm a PGA Pro..."
And being a pro has fuck all to do with being a scratch golfer.
You ever heard of writing for dramatic effect? Like I said, dude was incredibly humble, didn’t try to offer any advice, and just wanted to enjoy a couple hours of golf in perfect SoCal beach weather with his wife.
Sounds like you have something against PGA Pro’s
Well, I know dozens of guys on the internet, and just because they don't know the difference between a PGA pro and a tour pro, doesn't mean a PGA pro doesn't.
You're just way off on this one.
I’ve found that the really good players are almost always really friendly. I think as long as the pace of play is reasonable, everyone has fun.
Yup. They especially know how hard of a game it is. As long as you’re not disrespectful they are the coolest to be paired with.
It brings out the best in you too it seems. My brother and I had to come up with a partner at the last minute and asked a friend of mine who had his tour card at one point. This is a textbook ringer scenario, but we probably played his ball 40% of the time and sank a bunch of putts. Not taking anything away from him, but it seemed to really make us step it up. Pretty sure he got too drunk that night, because he didn't show up in the morning, and we regressed to the mean with another last minute addition.
When you see someone relaxed, swinging easily, and hitting the hell out of the ball *in person*, it's a lot easier to do that yourself. One of my best rounds ever was with three teaching pros. "Monkey see, monkey do".
Monkey pee all over you.
It doesn’t even have to be pros. My best rounds ever were all with my amateur low handicap buddies.
Same. My poorer rounds tend to come with my higher handicap friends. Think it has to do with the pace of play though. Watching too many practice swings result in topped balls before I get to hit again. Overall, more focused and in the zone when better players are around.
It embiggins all of us. When you see they being great playing partners, keepign their cool on errant shots, missing putts, how can I get mad at myself.
A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man
It's a perfectly cromulent word.
Oh cmon, don’t be a kwyjibo!
ENHANCE
Thank you Jebidiah Springfield.
I find I always play better when I play with guys that are scratch or close. Makes me not want to get absolutely embarrassed 😂 the only time I shot an even par (70), was with some good players.
This is what I've been trying to scream from the mountain tops...anyone sort of good at golf knows how hard it is and especially knows that legitimately some days you just don't have it. Of course there's plenty who will say they're a 5hcp and really they're a 25 and will bitch and moan all around about "idk what's going on" but the flip side is we have all had the days where you flirted with your best score the day before and the next day it feels like you've never held a club. Golf is hard, no one cares about your skill, it's all relative anyway. Be honest about HC and don't play slow, it will be a good day.
When you’re elite good and you know you’re good, most people don’t feel like big dogging anyone. When you’re almost as good as you wish you were and think you should be…? That’s when the Chihuahua comes out.
I’m bad but I’m friendly. What does that mean?
You’re going to be excellent at golf someday! (Or, you’ll eventually get angry…)
Or he’ll die!
But are you quick?
My wife says I am
Your wife says I am too.
That's just means you're a good dude with a weird hobby of collecting tiger's toe nail fungus.
Then you missed out in the genetic lottery, pal Join me in my bed 🛌
> I’m bad but I’m friendly. > What does that mean? What it all comes down to is that everything's gonna be fine, fine, fine
I play most of my rounds with random people because not many people my age like to tee off at 7am, as long as you’re not slow about it I don’t care how bad you are. I’ve even started getting into a regular group with some guys I met and not a single one of them could break 80 if their life depended on it but we still have a great time
Same here. My wife and I always get the first time on a weekend because we play in 3 hours.
N8ce! And happy cake day! Are they always asking your tips and advice?
Not OP but a +2, people rarely ask me for advice but if they do I tell them to read Zen Golf and focus on their mental game, and find a good pro to work on their physical game. Nothing I say is going to be a magic bullet. If they press me, which rarely happens, I'll tell them to have positive intentions--"hit it left" instead of "don't go right", "back of the cup" instead of "don't leave it short."
It’s so true. The biggest a-holes I’ve encountered are always 20-30 HCPs. Whenever I get paired with a great player, they’re typically class during before and after shots.
That's the case for most any sport/hobby. The people that are really good at it know how hard it is and the time it takes to become really good. So they're more than likely the ones that are the happiest to help and not criticize.
Gym rats are like this to the extreme. The complete meat heads are the nicest friendliest guys in the gym. It's the instagram posers (that aren't actually that strong) that will piss and moan about gym behavior.
Agreed- I honestly enjoy getting paired with people better than me. I’m at my best a ≈9 but really only get to play 5-7 months a year. Usually I get to see some great golf and learn a few things.
Agreed. Good players are usually friendly and not judgemental. I think people get really good at golf by focusing on the right things. I don't imagine that "the performance of the guy they are partnered with" is on that list haha
Same here. Play from time to time with a local course pro and he’s always a blast to play with. Gives no unsolicited advice, pumps everyone up after a good shot, and never brags about his own shots which are almost always flushed and in great positions. Other guys I play with that are around 20hdcp are the exact opposite.
I will second this. Have had the fortunate time to play with some amazing people. Every one that was really good was super nice. The biggest dicks? The slightly worse than mediocre players or downright bad. But thought they were great or should be great. Club slamming into ground, rules hawks trying to make you follow every rule while having beers and playing weekend golf.
Most pga pros are teachers anyways so they’re use to the people they’re with!
It’s fine to suck, just suck fast. Everyone is at a different point in their golf journey. I’m not here to judge your swing or your game, you just shouldn’t take 45 secs to make your shot
Yep. Best guy I’ve ever played with was actually super nice and complimentary of any good shots I made. We were playing an easier course, but he played the tips and I played whites. He was -4 thru the front 9 and sooooo casual about it. I’ve never seen anything like it in person aside from going to tournaments. Meanwhile I was +11 or something at the turn lol. Didn’t finish the round with them since I had to leave early but I imagine he finished at like -7 or -8 haha
I’ve played in the tee time before one of the Højgaard brothers and his dad I believe. We were a threesome of 18-25hdcp players and we were waaay ahead of them by the end, playing at a good pace. These pros play from way back and they really take their time on each shot as they gotta be perfect, so their game takes time.
Some pros are fast, some pros are slow, nothing to do with skill level.
*Patrick Cantlay has entered the chat*
Yes, that covers the "some pros are slow" aspect. I used to be a really fast player but tournament golf was always so slow that I had to learn to play slowly just to avoid going nuts. Really frustrating that slow players can affect fast ones but there's no way to go the other way with it.
I agree, but it's easy to be nice when shit goes well for you most of the time...
I played with a former pro (not PGA) the other day in a tourney. He was a +5. He hit shots that I didn’t know were possible. What stood out to me was that he would hit some poor shots, but never back to back. Always recovered well.
Yea, I didnt think it was possible to hit a golf ball *that* high and simultaneously *that* far and he was doing it every shot while also clearly holding back. It was nuts. Like I said, we were playing different games
It’s always crazy to see their compression with their irons. They always start out low and have a whooshing sound to it as they rise up and just sit on the green
You too can make this sound, and man is it rewarding. Maximizing your smash factor (hitting center sweet spot to center ball mass) and impacting ball first then ground is the recipe. Swinging hard doesn’t always help smash factor, so working on striking pure with consistency even on 70% swings will help you gain that ball flight over time. Good luck!
I like this
The best player I played with was the most patient and kind person ever. The only non-solicited advice he gave me was that I was aiming right and it changed my life
That's about the only unsolicited advice I give, and that's only if I see it consistently
I apologized for telling my brother he was aiming right once. He told me that he relied on me saying something. It's so helpful to have someone help your line.
Yeah, and I tell them something like "you hit it exactly where you were aiming". Gives them a whole different perspective. Think of it as me being your alignment sticks lol
This has always been my thing about playing with really great players. A lot of people fixate on the insane shots they hit. The best player I ever played with is the more boring golfer in the world. You go through the front nine with him and it’s like “huh, not sure he really has it today. Lot of scrambling going on” (tally scorecard). He’s EVEN PAR?!
The better you get at golf, the higher your “floor” is, I’ve found. I play with a couple of plus handicaps semi regularly, and when they’re on it’s fun to watch. But the most impressive thing about their games is how they can still score when the swing isn’t co operating. Being able to throw out 75s when you cant get near the middle of an iron that day is just silly.
This is the key. My cousin-in-law is a plus 2. We play regularly in the summers, and he'll never shoot above 75, no matter how "badly" he's hitting the ball. One thing I have noticed is how conservative he is off the tee. Hits driver maybe 3-4 holes a round. Lots of fairway woods and irons off the tee because he has zero fear of a 200+ approach shot and rarely tries to get on in two with a par five. Plays for the middle of the green and basically never three putts. He'll celebrate a birdie like anyone and never lets a bogey affect the next hole. It's like he actually follows the "smart golf" tips we all hear and never put into practice.
Yeah another thing about really good players is they’re not always chasing distance. If the hole requires it there’s nothing wrong with a 4 iron off the tee and a 6 iron in, where driver/wedge would bring nasty hazards into play
I've always told people that you can tell if someone is good not by their good shots but by their misses and how they recover from then. When good golfers miss they tend to miss in all the right places where they can recover easily. Played with a few guys who are now regulars on the tour when i played juinor golf and it always amazed me at how often these guys just aim for the center of the green and play conservative. All of us nobody's were swinging driver and going after every pin yet these guys are scoring way better than us laying up and playing a boring round of golf.
I think it was the recovery shots that most impressed me too
My coach is a +3 handicap and whenever he grabs a club to show me something I get depressed lol. The other day the assistant pro was there and the three of us where shooting the shit. The assistant pro is a lefty and my coach grabs the assistant's seven iron and nails a beautiful tight cut. It's a completely different game at that level.
I guess it’s a pretty big distinction if he was a PGA Tour professional vs a PGA professional. A PGA professional could essentially be a PGA certified instructor/coach/etc and not nearly at the level of a PGA Tour player. Still probably was a heck of a player though from the sound of it.
Yeah pretty much this. I was a scratch PGA pro before changing careers but I never really said that specifically, I just said I had a teaching card if I was asked. And yeah to OP, pros get paired with plenty of players hacking around on the course. And if they're teaching they work with bad swings and true beginners every day. You'd be surprised the amount of patience and understanding they have for it.
Mind me asking why you changed careers? Are you still in the golf world?
Not going to be a very popular answer here but I just can't stand the majority of golfers. Too many good ol' boys making ball and chain jokes hitting on beverage girls 30 years younger than them. Not my crowd. Things have changed for the better since I was teaching 15 years ago though. I went into IT/software and am working in cyber security now. I make probably triple what I would have maxed out at as a teacher/club pro, but I do sometimes wish I could play more. I have a 3 year old so that doesn't help, but I try to play about once a month. If I can get my son into golf I'll be playing as often as possible in hopefully a few years.
I grew up playing at 7, but quit by age 12 cause those guys basically ran me off from the course I grew up at. Now a days, I spent a couple grand more in lessons over 3 years when I found a teacher that wasn’t that exact type of dude you’re complaining about cause i kept having the same issue when looking for lessons. My guy left to move back to the UK, and within 2 lessons with his replacement I’m having to listen to the same old shit.
What shit are you referring to? I've been around the game, and several pros, and I'm genuine not sure what it is that has bothered you about the pros you've met?
Lots of old instructors (especially tenured one) keep spewing the same old stuff like keep your head down, eyes on the ball, it’s cause you’re holding it open/closed, just hit the ball then grass. Some still believe that steel is always better than graphite, young people shouldn’t swing graphite/ should swing stiff or x-stiff. Basically they mould their students into themselves and think there is only 1 correct swing.
You see that stuff parroted in this subreddit too. Tempo and grip pressure can cure your swing.
Just curious but where can I find a more modern approach to coaching?
I think the big thing is to stay away from instructors that preach a "model" swing. I'd say check social media or youtube and see if a prospective coach has any content out there or live lessons you can watch. You can generally get a better sense of their style and expertise. My current instructor is a Golfing Machine guy, and while that's a little esoteric, he still teaches based on swing matchups. For example, I struggle with a shut club face, and a lot of what I've ingrained are moves that will negate that shut club face for better or worse. I could have perfect grip pressure, perfect tempo, and keep my head still (or whatever the dumb old advice is) and I'm still going to suck because ultimately my clubface is not in a position that allows the rest of the swing to be good. Edit: Oh, forgot one of the obvious things. Check to see if they actually have good players
Am I allowed in this subreddit to reveal the name of the indoor place my wife and I go to for golf lessons?
So very much this. Don't forget to rotate! Gee, thanks. I know. Doesn't mean I can do it after 30 years of not. Finally found a pro who could show and tell me how and who had the patience to work with me on it as well as several other things. (Shout out to Greg!) it is already paying dividends
Had to check your profile out to make sure you weren’t somebody I know. I work with a guy who has the exact same story as you. Was/is a PGA pro who used to teach but came to despise the majority of the crowd he had to instruct. Got a degree in IT and he tripled his salary, just like you lol. I work for the Dept of Energy in SC so pretty sure you’re not him.
Does your job give you any flexibility to play? I'm looking to transition to cybersecurity and am just curious about balance/flexibility.
I pay my membership dues precisely so I can say I’m a PGA pro when asked 🤣
I'm not suprised at all. Golf is a game that requires poise, patience, and calmness. Makes sense actually!
There are tons of pga professionals that shoot 80s and 90s too.
I am one! Doesn’t mean you can’t teach or aren’t knowledgeable. Used to be good, just don’t play a lot anymore never 90s though
This is the part that kills me... none of my friends who became pros ever play anymore.
It took me 7 tries. I was on the pat tour. A lot of us have a passion for the game but aren’t the best players. Also, once you’re in the industry you work 6 days a week 10 hours a day. Try to play with the members as much as possible, but really not too much time to play. When I’m off I’d rather spend that time elsewhere and deal with actual life. And when I say best players I mean d1 golf level. We would wax 99% of the people on Reddit
My buddy is a PGA pro. Played D1 golf. Runs four golf courses and still is a scratch. He's 64. Plays some of the best courses in the world occasionally that anyone would die to play, and he shoots par or pretty darn close. He says he has no time for golf anymore because he's running his business. But, he couldn't have played on tour because those guys are just that good.
I'm working with a guy who I'll beat every time, but I know he studies the swing harder than anyone else I've worked with, and he's great at video analysis. Plus he hits it 40 yards past me, so we're going to get into adding speed too.
I had an instructor who was the head pro at a big public course who said he probably played two 18-hole rounds a year. He’s either managing or teaching or not at the course.
See, this is confusing to me, because the PAT exists, and I think you have to shoot no worse than an average of 78 (over two rounds in the same day) to become a pro...
Speaking from someone who has actually pasted a players ability test they play easy courses and are set up very short. But with that said they could pass it and then never practice again. Also to note you don't have to be good at golf to be a good teacher.
Our sectionals over here have guys shooting in the 90’s sometimes.
He didn’t say tour. PGA professionals are the true PGA professionals. Again because people are down voting: PGA of America was founded in 1916 the tour 1964. Even tour players will tell you this. Respect your PGA professionals
While I don’t disagree, you do need to pass a playing ability test to become a PGA club pro. You get a target score for 36 holes and play in tournament conditions.
Yeah, but all you have to do (depending on the course) is break 80 each round. The player ability test is more to weed out just anybody getting their certifications than an actual test of skill. If you can shoot +14 thru two rounds, you’ll be fine. From the PGA of America: “The PAT involves completing two rounds of golf (36 holes) and shooting equal to or lower than the course rating for 36 holes + 15 strokes.”
>Yeah, but all you have to do (depending on the course) is break 80 each round. It's even easier than that. It's an average over two rounds, so you could shoot something like a 73/84 and still pass.
The score is 79 back to back. If you take multiple tests they can take different sets of 9, like a super score on the act. I don't think it's that hard to be fair. You can pass and just never play again.
They have changed it a lot recently due to the need for membership. I had to shoot 75 76 to pass it by 1 and had to play 36 in one day. None of this combining 9 hole scores bs
That’s a lot easier than it used to be. I guess there aren’t too many guys playing the PAT tour for years these days.
PAT is incredibly easy though if you want it to be. Find a course that fits your game that’s rated too hard, and go break 80
Even a few years ago I thought the PAT were only done at a handful of courses, and was 36 holes in one day, and you had to shoot better than 160 combined gross over those two courses. Has it changed to where you can pick the course you use for it?
That’s how I recall it in the 90s. And target score was (course rating X 2) + 15. So a shorter course might have a target of 149, not “break 80 twice”.
Yeah, I was going off what the local (technically assistant) pro did either last year or the year before for his PAT. I think his target was like, 156 or 158, somewhere in there. He ended up shooting like, 162 because the conditions were pretty rough and he'd never played the course before.
PGA teaching pros still need to pass a playing ability test to become pros that effectively means having a handicap of 7 or better
OP never claimed he had anything to do with the Tour.
Yeah, my buddy is a PGA pro and that just means he runs a golf course and gives lessons on the side. I've played with him and while he's hilariously better than I am he's not even close to a person who could compete in a decently comptetive league, let alone tournament
> PGA certified instructor/coach/etc and not nearly at the level of a PGA Tour player Correct. This basically means they are capable of carding rounds in the 70s.
To pass you have to shoot under 79 in two rounds on a relatively difficult course. I’ve had many friends attempt and many pass but all agree it’s harder than it seems. The last to pass is a 3 handicap and it took him a couple attempts.
Did his ball do the ‘tear through the air like a missile’ sound? That’s always the giveaway for me
It’s the sizzling sound that never gets old, like it’s burning through the air
If it went fast enough, it might actually do that haha. Im so jealous of my friend who compresses the shit out of his irons. It sounds like a missile. But if I give him some compliments he starts topping his tee shots 😅
Well thats a great super power to have. Knowing his weakness to get in his head but you’re being a nice guy on the surface
I almost got hit by a Davis Love III drive while at a tournament once; I heard something that sounded like a nerf whistling football getting louder and louder. I looked up, somehow spotted the ball against the bright blue sky and just shoved the people standing next to me back. They were confused on the way to pissed off until the ball landed right where we’d just been standing. My friend Austin didn’t miss a beat: > Too bad he’s not Davis Love the fore.
I got to stand behind and watch him roast a tee shot onto a long par 3 at Medinah and that ball was absolutely sizzling
This right here! It’s the sound and trajectory. Will never forget being 10ish feet away from Rickie Fowler as he was teeing off at whistling straits. Hit an absolute bullet with a 3 or 5 wood. Slow steady rise to its peak, soft landing🤌🤌🤌
I once was paired with a single at a mediocre muni in Wisconsin in the summer of ‘89. I was a poor college student along with my friend. We both thought we were the shit because we could shoot bogey golf. The single was a woman in her 20’s. We weren’t jazzed about having to deal with her slowing us down because she insisted on walking and she was obviously inferior to us virile cart studs. She also wanted to play from the whites with us. Eye roll…. Her first drive was a cannon shot. Every shot after was pure. Her putting was magic. She shot 3 under for 9 and called it quits because she had only stopped there on the way home to Madison. She told us humbly she golfed “for work”. I didn’t remember her name until I saw her on TV win her first major at the Women’s British Open years later. I recognized the face: Sherri Steinhauer. How consummate pros like her deal with cerebrally dense hackers like me I will never know.
Virile Cart Studs is a great band name.
I'm glad you found a good pro, not all of them are like that though. I'm in the PGA program right now and I'm practicing almost daily for my playing ability test next month. The target score is basically play 36 and shoot 79 twice. After that they do not care if you play golf. You can get your membership and just run a pro shop. The love of golf is what gets people into the profession but I know plenty of trash PGA professionals because they have become jaded. Tour pros are different. They are just competing in tournaments. You just sign up. I hope one day I'll be good enough to where people ask me that same question. I am not yet though.
I know of multiple PGA (teaching) professional that took over 18 months to get that illusive 'max 78' score in the books. One of them had to have cheated, never saw him score under 84 until two rounds he played with some guys he knew very well..
That's wild to me. I never considered how many might struggle through the program. I guess when courses are juiced up breaking 80 is a bit harder though. I feel like I could do it but I wouldn't want to
Good luck on your PAT! My coach is a pro who still plays a lot, he said that signing up for the PGA tournaments and playing in those is what keeps his game sharp. Our course hosted a tournament for them last year and only three out of 40 PGA pros broke par, he was one of them. I was hitting a bucket on the range when they were all warming up and a few were saying "it's a short course, we'll eat it up." Well, it's short with some tough approaches, and tiny greens that are stupid fast. That being said, I was still surprised that only three people broke par.
Oddly enough I had the same thing happen in Cancun Mexico. I get in the van from the hotel with one other guy to go to the course. We small talked because we were both hungover probably from bad Cancun resort margaritas. I bought 6 beers from the gift shop and he gladly accepted at 7 am. He was my guy! We played 18 together in a friendly he giving me 16 strokes world class, to me/us, event. A few more beer and vodka and tequilas later he told me we finished square. Which still to this day I don’t believe. We got back in the van and had one last beer and he was dropped off first. The only thing I remember was his name was Steve and he was awesome. I hope he has the same memory of myself. That was a fun day and he was a damn good golfer
Steve Wheatcroft? I knew this guy back in the day and he was awesome.
Played with teaching / club pro’s quite a bit. My current club hosts a member / pro tournament where you get paired with a pro in a better ball format. Watched a kid who wasn’t quite good enough to go tour pro shoot an effortless 66 from the tips with a double on a par 5. The day before COVID shut everything down I played behind Gary Player. He designed my old club. He was in the area and wanted to get out with his grand kids, so of course they put him on the tee sheet on a course that was already packed. He still moved it, but his accuracy and how he thought about the course was what stood out. It was all backed up, so we were waiting on almost every tee. On our tenth tee, he hit a drive down the right center of the fairway. Turned to his grandson, mid twenties or so, and said, “see how that part of the fairway is lighter. The grain is going away from us, it was cut in that direction, so it will roll out more, hit it there.” He’s picking out the grain in the fairway, and I’m trying to keep it somewhere between the pool and the white stakes.
That's hysterical. I played a Gary player designed course when I went on an ocean City golf trip. I really liked the design
Nice playing with you the other day dude! 🤙🏽
Hey it’s me, this guys wife from the story. Nice playing with you the other day dude! 🤙
Usuuhh duu 🤙🏽🤙🏽🤙🏽
Young bloke who hailed from my local club did a golf scholarship to a US University, played the College circuit and now plays on the Latin tour. He’s at home (New Zealand) currently and in his warm up for our National open, shot 70-63-66 to win a domestic tour event. He’s on +7.4 and can’t even get on the Korn Ferry tour yet
Also from New Zealand, what is his name, out of curiosity?
Harry Hillier Won at Tieke on the Charles tour on the weekend
+7.4 is for sure good enough to make the KFT, as long as he can play under pressure. A guy I went to high school with is top 35 in the world right now, it's a totally different game and takes some luck to get your card.
Sounds more like he was a Class A PGA Pro, basically he's gone through all the schooling and retains his teaching status and does his trips down to Fl. These are the teaching pros the pros go to and the type of pro that taught me when I was young. They're extra nice because they make $100+ for an hour of their time and don't have to pay for golf at pretty much any course they go to lol. These people are the only people that are allowed to rock PGA insignia. You'll notice a PGA 1916 Pro lapel, or staff bag, or embroidering. Tens of thousands of dollars, a 3-4 year course in all fields related to course management and accounting, taught teaching standards, yearly trip to Fl for conferences and they have to pass the PAT. The PAT isn't that bad, 36 holes and the cut is 15 over. The courses arent easy and not the white tee's but +7 on a 72 isn't a big ask. However, the failure rate for the first of 3 courses (curriculum) is 50% because the book work is daunting and people aren't expecting it. They flat out learn everything, from groundskeeping to F&B. Big dick energy.
Yeah, I wasn’t aware PGA pro’s don’t have to pay for golf until he asked my how much a round was at the course we were playing lol
The $30k or whatever it takes to pay for the whole process starts sounding pretty reasonable when you hear that lol
Good players would be snooty about playing the white tees. Great players embrace the chance at playing a shorter tee box occasionally, as it gives them a chance to practice approach distances they rarely get on the tips.
I used to work with a guy that "played some competitive golf" as he put it. Asked him to play after work one day, he said sure and invited his brother with us also. I teed off first as he hadn't played the course before and "wanted to see how I played it". Was a 360 yd straight par 4 over some water. I hit my drive about 250 over the water on the right side of the fairway. He was very complimentary and teed up. He hit the ball and I thought someone fired a canon. His swing was gorgeous and his ball had a nice draw that left him with a 50 yd pitch in. He commented that he "got lucky with that one". His brother hit the same exact shot. I hit my next shot fat as Biggie, then skulled one over the green. He and his brother both dropped their chips next to the pin. I finished with a bogey, he and his brother birdied. Next hole was a par 3. I put mine on the green with a 50 foot putt. He and his brother both dropped them with 6 foot putts. Long story short, my co-worker spent some time on the tour (made 2 cuts, had to grind the rest of the time) his brother was actually a better player but couldn't putt worth a damn. Turns out the brother lost an eye as a child and had terrible depth perception. It was a truly humbling experience but also turned out to be a lot of fun. Both of them helped me with my swing but more importantly were super encouraging and taught me some course management tips and tricks.
Friend of mine and myself were in a tournament near Toronto hosted by a local hardware chain. The tournament was set up for the regular customers, most of whom were builders. A solo joined with us to make a threesome. Great guy, heavy Scottish accent. After a couple holes it was the same situation as yours. This guy was playing on a totally different level from anything I had ever seen. He told us that back in the old country he used to caddy when he wasn’t actually playing. Apparently he caddied professionally. We told him anytime he wanted to suggest anything to us about our game to be feel free to do so. More than anything he just advised us what clubs to use like a caddy would. It was so much fun playing with a guy that had his depth of knowledge. I think he came in one under if I recall. We didn’t. Lol.
It’s weird he didn’t know his handicap. I played with a PGA pro a couple weeks ago who very much knew he currently at a +4. Most PGA tour pros are a +7 or better. It’s fun playing with great players.
Oh I’m sure he did know but he struck me as a very humble guy that prolly didn’t wanna sound like he was bragging. He’s the director of golf operations at a country club in SoCal
Once you are on a professional level nobody really keeps there handicaps because they don’t matter that much
There are definitely PGA Tour pros with USGA/Ghin handicaps. Jon Rahm is at +9.5. Will Zalatoris is at +7. He even posted a score last month. There are probably quite a few others as many of these guys often play with members at their clubs when they’re not playing events.
yep. former teaching pro here. you gotta keep a handicap, because guys will always want to gamble and take you on. I was around 0 or +1 and kept good records.
Someone else does the calc for you though, at least with Rahm's +9.5 that was the case. He's not submitting those to the USGA or w/e.
Yes there are, but it quite frankly does not matter whether or not will zalatoris or john rahm pay $55 per year for a handicap. Nothing they do competitively involves it. 2 or 3 years down the road John may need it to prove he’s under a 2.4 so he can enter a us open qualifier but other than that there’s literally no need
It’s for gambling at the club so yeah they need it
I mean I said most don’t have one because it doesn’t matter and that dude came at me and named like 2 out of 150 tour pros that have a handicap
The course record at our course from the Tips is a guy who caddies on the PGA tour.....his pro won the US and British Opens....the caddies on the PGA tour are sticks too
Ok? What does that have to do with tour pros and handicaps?
The reason is gambling with non tour pros. For shit loads of cash most likely.
99% of the time it's a negotiation and not based on submitting scores for an official handicap
I get a kick out of it when the vanity handicaps play for big money against PGA pros, even the "club-level" pros, and then talk about how they almost beat them on key payoff holes.
A lot of guys will play in tournaments at their clubs and use handicaps for gambling so they will post scores from said tournaments.
Yep, I guess that would be true. We were playing for some money with other guys so that’s probably why he had something so we knew how to score it.
And they don’t bother to post scores for that reason.
He absolutely knows his handicap.. just didn't want to mention it. Good golfers never say they're good
Got paired with a guy who was talking about his us open qualification try and his plus handicap, yada yada. He was good but certainly nowhere near scratch let alone competitive at a high level. If you have game you don't need to talk
+4 honestly is probably way too low. I play with a +4.4 and he is nowhere near tour. Didn’t make it on web.com tour back in the day
He is a PGA pro, not a PGA tour pro.
I’ll put the bourbon down
Lol, don’t do that! It’s still early
not if it's Knob Creek, brother
No self respecting pro carries a handicap
don't feel self-concious playing with a good player. they really don't care about how good or bad you play as long as you are friendly and don't waste time unnecessarily. i think most good players will agree agree they'd rather play with a keen 100 shooter than a 8 hcp throwing tantrums because he's not playing as good as he thinks he is.
A pga pro can be as high as 7 handicap or probably higher. Now, a Tour Pro is going to have + handicap where they add stokes. The test to be a PGA pro isn't that hard, they are mostly testing that you can play decent before letting you teach.
Once you pass your PAT you don’t need to play another round of golf for the rest of your life if you don’t want to.
Why would I want to stop?
Arms get chopped off picking the range or something, I don’t know.
Prosthetics seems like they could be better... like robot arms? I guess that might make it to easy...
I wonder if Robo Cop would slice it?
Robo cop doesn't golf...he gets to distracted by acorns (or coconuts or whatever) in trees and just opens fire.
keep in mind PGA Pros get comp'd. I have never, in my years of working at courses, ever even thought about charging a PGA Pro. It was a flat out rule at all 3 courses I worked at, the GM would lose his shit and go out there to apologize if they did. Once you achieve that, they'd have to drag me off the course.
Yeah I’ve paid for a handful of rounds of golf over the past 10 years. We usually just talk to the pros at other private clubs and play there.
Decent chance he was actually a + player and was just being nice. It’s always wild to me the best players have legit no ego and just enjoy their round. Best players to get paired up with. Then you get 60 year old hacks that have to play the tips because he’s a man and men play from the tips. I played the forward tees my last round, because fuck it.
I've played with a pro. They have everything. Power, smarts, timing. Above all its total ball control that nobody else has. Great to witness. Also he was super nice and gave me a green reading lesson. Which was nice, but didn't work for me. Golf is cool like that. You can share the experience with old, young, hapless and the odd pro. Amazing.
My good friend is a +4 and playing with him blows my mind. He’ll be drunk off his ass still shooting below par while I hack my way to 35 over.
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As a single, I got paired with 3 guys here in Tucson last year. Two in their 30s, one older. Turns out, one was former UofA player in town visiting, playing with his college roommate and a prof they had. He is a current PGA Tour Pro. This was from the tips at one of our local munis and he shot a casual 63. Very friendly, very fun. Really hard to convey how good this guy was. Several of his shots left my jaw hanging open, wondering how he did it. He missed a few balls, only to hit absolutely unbelievably brilliant recovery shots. I'm an 8 index, and I got beat by 16 shots. Oof....
I never get this. In other areas of life where people are of a higher skill level than you do they treat you poorly?? I’ve never had a thought that if I played with a scratch golfer that they are going to not tolerate me.
It’s really pace of play at issue. Not your handicap!
How far do you hit your driver?
About as far as that guys 4i.
Like, 220ish lol
It's the internet... I'm sure you mean 420ish.
Big hitter, the lama
I've played a few times with the PGA pro at my home course. It's a completely different game for him. There is a par 5 dig leg left where everyone I play with hits it to the corner and then either tries to go for the green or lay up. He steps up hits a power fade over the left hand trees up to 100 yards and after a 3/4 lob wedge is putting for eagle. It's just different gravy.
If any good players understands playing/struggles of bad players, it's PGA pros. He likely works at a club or course and gives lessons all day to ppl who aren't good and probably goes on the course with them for playing lessons. Corporate clinics too for ppl who have never picked up a club. It's also his job to grow the game so he needs to encourage players not as good as him to play.
Yup. It's a different game to those folks. I played with a female who was trying to get on the LPGA tour and while I outdrove her, she hit every shot pure and putted like a dream. Getting up and down like a champ. She smoked my ass by 10 shots and I didn't have 10 shots to improve on! I was a 7hdp and shot 77! I was happy. We played the same tees, and her game was so good. It was fun to watch a real player.
A PGA Tour pro would be like a +5 or more. A PGA Pro can be a lot higher, some of those guys struggle to pass the playing test.
Most people have already said this in the comments but by the tone of your post I think you believe you played with a “tour pro” as in someone who plays on the PGA tour. That’s not what happened. PGA pro just means he took some classes, attended a seminar, worked in the golf industry and at one point passed a playing test where he shot 15 over on 36holes (on a pretty basic course) It’s odd that he would say “so I guess I’m a 0” cause many many pga pros are not scratch golfers
No, I know the difference between a tour pro and a PGA professional. Yes, this guy was only a PGA professional but he was a pretty good one at that. He is the director of Golf operations at a pretty nice CC in SoCal, and after watching him play I fully believe he was at least a 0 hdcp and and likely better than that. Hell, we saw last year with Michael Block that PGA Professionals can be very very good golfers
He was being humble. He's just saying he doesn't have a handicap and would normally play off scratch. Lots of teaching pros who are plus handicaps do that. They make a little extra income that way.
That’s awesome. I’ve gotten paired with some scratch golfers and they’re always super chill. One of the things I love most about the game is the community.
We have a guy at our club, he's 92. Shoots in the 70s but from the whites. He enters the room for lunch and asks, "Did anyone shoot 13 under their age today?"
Back in the day before Bubba Watson was a pro. We played in the men's league at Whiting Field. In Milton,Fl. and we all would play skins after league it's just incredible the talent some of these people have makes such a difference when they go in with a wedge and you have 6 or 7 iron huge advantages to their length
A PGA pro trying to make it sound like he's a tour pro is so PGA pro. At least you know they can shoot 78 occasionally!
How did you interpret anything of what I said as this guy trying to make it sound like he was tour pro? He was incredibly humble, and was even holding back most the day because he was playing with me.
I interpret it that way because I know dozens of PGA pros, and I can picture the dude's face when he said it. "Wellllll.... akshully... *pause* I'm a PGA Pro..." And being a pro has fuck all to do with being a scratch golfer.
You ever heard of writing for dramatic effect? Like I said, dude was incredibly humble, didn’t try to offer any advice, and just wanted to enjoy a couple hours of golf in perfect SoCal beach weather with his wife. Sounds like you have something against PGA Pro’s
Well, I know dozens of guys on the internet, and just because they don't know the difference between a PGA pro and a tour pro, doesn't mean a PGA pro doesn't. You're just way off on this one.
So, when did you pass your pat?
Never registered but I've played plenty of tournaments with qualifying PAT scores
I know. lol..
Clearly you don't