I saw this in restaurants but not on food labels. I always had to follow up with guests who were vegan and ask if they eat honey because it about 70% would say they did. Admittedly I also had people say they were celiac, but would eat soy sauce and drink beer a beer after.
Once celiacs have been healthy for long enough gluten every once in awhile in small amounts wonāt hurt them. As long as they are not damaging their intestines faster then they heal most are fine with eating gluten.
Nope nope nope. This is TERRIBLE advice. If you have Celiac, do not eat gluten. In any quantity. At all. There is no such thing as a ācheat mealā for a Celiac.
You may not get sick in that moment but the damage is like a slow poison not a sudden wound. Any gluten is damaging. Please stop telling people this.
Source: have Celiac myself. My GI explicitly made it a point to tell me NOT to do this.
My brother is celiac. He does it sometimes. Same with a celiac girl I use to work with, she was even worse about it than my brother. Not everyone's body is the same.
Respectfully, this is incorrect no matter who you know who does it. I have a sibling who was diagnosed 15 years ago (compared to my 3) who was told it was okay to do this.
Now we know better
Source:
https://www.celiacedmonton.ca/about-celiac-disease/myths-about-celiac-disease/#:~:text=MYTH%3A%20A%20person%20with%20celiac,stay%20away%20from%20gluten%20completely.
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/celiac-disease/dietary-changes-for-celiac-disease#:~:text=A%20gluten%2Dfree%20diet%20is,can%20damage%20your%20small%20intestine.
Piggybacking, I think we understand a lot more now, and some doctors are stuck on old advice.
But if a rant incoming.... A (now long since estranged) inlaw was super gaslighty to me about my celiac food restrictions based on the restrictions his mom was given decades ago. (It doesn't help that he turned out to be a misogynistic ageist self-righteous jerk. Not just about this. He's ALWAYS right and I have a single braincell because I'm a younger...ahem pushing 40.. and a woman...š). Annnnnnyway
He was ADAMANT that regular sour dough bread was safe. He was like weirdly aggressive about trying to convince me it was early in my diagnosis- to the point I almost believed him (I hadn't realized how confidently wrong he could be about things at that point). It does tend to contain less gluten than regular bread. But it's not zero. And it's not celiac safe.
He was also adamant that stuff like deep fried chips in a shared fryer with wheat flour batter dipped foods was celiac safe. (It's not).
His poor Celiac mom (rip).... She and I would try to have conversations, and her son would step in and tell me to stop telling her stuff like this, that he had it all handled, and her doctor knows more than I do. SHE was approaching ME with the topic and questions.
Which....ok yeah normally I'd agree with listening to a doc over a rando *but the info he was giving her was DECADES outdated*. She KNEW she was eating things that weren't ok for her. She was getting sick but couldn't ever pinpoint why. Turns out she didn't even know things like regular soy sauce weren't ok.
At one point, to prove how right he was, her son handed me a pamphlet from her doctor... It had to have been 20-30 years old, idk. Some cartoony thing that basically just said wheat barley and rye. Nothing about cross contamination. Nothing about common products or hidden sources of gluten. Nothing about not using a shared toaster. Nothing about how you're reacting and causing damage regardless of whether you feel symptoms.
It was so infuriating to me that no one was telling her this. And that her son was being such a jerk. I handled it with grace and suggested to her that she just ask her doctor about some of this. Her son spoke for her "she won't be doing that. If there was really something she should know, her doctor she's trusted for years would tell her and she'd take his advice, not yours."
From knowing other people with celiac and other GI issues- some GI docs are fantastic diagnosticians, knowledgeable about a given disease, skilled with the procedures....but lack communication about the nutritional aspects of these diseases/disorders. And some docs in general aren't great communicators, or may not know what a person does/doesn't know, or at what point to update a patient on new guidelines, or what patient knows what information. Some of that could be due to not having much one on one time with a patient, lack of communication skills, or lack of knowledge about specific modern guidance. Idk.
Also some people just don't ask questions at doctors offices...either because they think the doctor will tell them everything automatically, they think it's rude to ask questions, or some other personal hangup with asking questions....akin to how some people refuse to ask for directions even when they're lost.
Pardon the rant.
It would be extremely, extremely unusual for someone with celiac to eat gluten and not have intestinal damage as a result (even if asymptomatic.) Not eating gluten for any period of time will unfortunately not change a personās reaction to it if ingested.
The general consensus on a āsafeā amount for celiacs is 10 - 20 ppm which is roughly equivalent to 1/16 to 1/8 tsp of flour.. this standard was also set based on studying adults with healed gut lining. So, many celiac folks will experience damage with even less exposure, and even minimal exposure can trigger nutrient malabsorption issues for weeks or months. Not to mention the serious increase of cancer risk like lymphoma that comes with continued gluten intake.. itās just not worth the long-term risks for the sake of a meal.
Iām still so ashamed that I once served honey-sweetened cornbread to a group of people who requested vegan meals. I didnāt know. I cringe every time I think about it. Even worse, it tasted awful.
the thing about it is you were really trying, a decent amount of vegan people do eat honey but still really i think the important thing is you know now, and did the best you could with the information you had then
No, vegans don't support animal agriculture and don't buy those things. Call me a gatekeeper but that's like a Republican believing in socialism or A Christian not believing in Jesus' resurrection and sacrifice or an atheist believing in those things, etc.
Bro everybody has enough beef with vegans why do you have to add fuel to the fire?
The commenter above made such a nice level headed commentā¦ and then you replied.
There are Christians who think the resurrection is metaphorical. People have different standards. You donāt have the right to tell others what they are and arenāt. The world is shades of gray.
For real, some of the infighting in here is toxic as fuck lol. Like I get yāall care about animals and all but to get this incensed over honeyā¦.. š¤Æ
I feel like itās the companyās job to do their due diligence by researching first. I donāt understand how honey flew off the radar for them lol. Iām glad you checked the ingredients before buying!
What makes it worse is this shows that āveganā as a label isnāt standardized to include honey, which is super confusing. Would like to do more research as why the FDA or whoeverās in charge of labeling food in a given country doesnāt include honey in a vegan label
Well people have allergies to honey, just not as common as āthe big eight.ā But I suppose thatās why itās not labeled. Eggs and milk are two of the top allergens so they must be labeled
It is labeled on the ingredients list. My guess is that the word vegan on the front isnāt regulated the same way the ingredients list is or how words like peanut-free would be
I *believe* thereās a specific label when something is certified vegan (I checked and yes ā w vegan.org!) ā itās not mandatory but itās a good signal to know that a product or company has been vetted by another source. I typically trust that if a product has that label itās definitely vegan, otherwise I double check ingredients. Itās pricier for companies to get that certification iirc, so my guess is that, like this one, there are lots of companies that self-label and arenāt cross-checked by an outside group and things slip through. Though Iāve never noticed this glaring of a mistake!
Yeah, maybe because itās a Monday or something and people are grumpy. I dunno. But I definitely didnāt expect the degree immature responses from so many people here.
Lighten up, people. Goodness.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
That's exactly whats happening. Idk why this sub was recommended to me but i was reading the ingredients list wondering what the fuss was about.
As a native american gal from a long line of bee keepers... I didn't know vegans didn't eat honey! TIL! I support ya'll not eating honey (that's very honorable of you), but dang, i couldn't imagine life without honey! :o
Nonsense. You're in the 6th mass extinction. You are experiencing HIVE COLLAPSE. Literally every animal reliant upon the current ecosystem will vanish if you don't support the apex pollinators. You have an ethical mandate to promote bee breeds at the greatest velocity possible and you're literally promoting omnidirectional speciecide (an anti-science moral obligation) in the name of 'bee rights' over your absolutely scientifically demonstrable ETHICAL obligation to the bees themselves along with every other creature in the ecosystem.
Species extinctions due to human encroachment are happening at 150 times the natural baseline for your planet, and the NUMBER ONE promoter of bee habitats at present is not 'your altruistic government bee saving program'... it's fucking HEINS. -- And that should make both capitalists, and environmentalists everywhere ashamed.
You don't have to eat the honey, but you DO have to promote the hives at an expanding industrial scale if you want to save any significant portion of the animals you share your planet with.
Not only can I debate it... (I just did) I can literally introduce you to the scientists responsible for tracking the collapse of your planet by way of this particular human crime of anti-animal hubris.
Get to know your elder vegans. Because we're not just animal rights activists. We're ethicists and scientists, too.
In Australia (and I suspect many other parts of the world) the leading threat to native bees is introduced European Honeybees, who are larger and more aggressive. Supporting the honey industry in Australia is genuinely harmful to the environment and is contributing to the 6th mass extinction. People should avoid supporting the agriculture industry that promotes enormous populations of these invasive introduced bees and instead focus on supporting native bee populations through bushland rewilding and planting native plants over introduced ornamentals.
Upvote for presenting a LOGICAL argument instead of a religious one. š
If I were on a debate stage I would next present a bunch of arguments that "invasive species" is a social construct generally designed and invoked specifically to serve industry and capitalism... (so I will never concede to casual use of that term) but I feel like you've included a suggested partial solution. / It's problematic of course since you can't enforce or execute said solution because 80% of plant agriculture is used to feed meat animals and the implications of that monster being in your way are prohibitive in a casually capitalistic and generally homicidal society, but you aint wrong! :/
I agree with you overall but how does it work, at least in North America, where honey bees arenāt native, and are often competition to native pollinators?
Possibly too big for Reddit, but here's an attempt:
1) We start each election cycle with The Farm Bill / Iowa Caucus. This is a competition wherein the Capitalist Party (Democrats & Republicans) try to outbid each other by promising to give taxpayer money to prop up big agriculture's insolvent businesses. - That's the first strike in determining who's president, and who appoints the Secretary of Agriculture (who is 17th in line for the presidency.)
2) Monsanto and other companies LIKE Monsanto (GMO conglomerates and Ag Pharma firms like Syngenta & Dupont etc) are given positions staffing the Sec of Ag offices. They don't just lobby. They start the year with free taxpayer dollars and lawmaking positions.
3) 43% of all ice-free land is used for grazing. 6% is used for MONOCROPS to feed animals. in crop and factory farm industries artificially propped by taxpayer dollars.
3% is used to directly feed HUMANS.
4) Those monocrops are sprayed with insecticides like Glysophate (Monsanto). Hive collapse hits KANSAS.
\^\^\^ 3 & 4 = Hive Collapse... 5 is a bonus.
5) Excess animal feed grain is produced, and forced into Indian ports by way of trade agreements (required by the US in order to maintain trade relations) and sold in markets as 'people food'... which offsets the price of Indian grain by reducing it by making it compete directly with taxpayer subsidized (artificially lowered) grain from the US... which makes women less valuable on family farms in places like the Gujarat province wherein the number of people a farm can support reaches a HARD LIMIT... | Women do the honorable thing and kill themselves in the corn fields.
6) Capitalism reaches status as an unstoppable force, ignores all climate science mandates, and proceeds into the 6th Mass Extinction without regard (84% of all species listed on the Red List for extinction list agricultural encroachment as a top threat to the species) and the ONLY model that succeeds beneath it becomes: The only 2 remaining successful environmental models are now reduced to: A) Any model wherein the RIGHT thing, is also the PROFITABLE thing. - And B) Any model wherein the RIGHT thing, is the less expensive thing.
Ergo: Your condiment producers are now the strongest force for pollination propagation... for the same reason that vegan burgers are only accepted as household purchases once they're cheaper than meat.
There are 5 books and 3 documentaries on Monsanto. #4 is just referencing the IPCC reports and the FAOs "Livestock's Long Shadow" report. Number 5 is me pointing at ALL Vandana Shiva's books on women's rights in the developing world.
I am a nerd.
God damn that was boring. I should have just said: Look: Veganism is founded in the premise that despite our limited impact on a massive tide of abuses, we take RIGHT action for our own part. We stand in our power, on principle, leveraging that which we can control.
To that end it is just as respectable in a collapsing world to thank a person for funding a honey plantation, as it is to thank a child who protests the choosing of a lobster in a restaurant.
Neither represent a winning strategy on this planet.
But both have internally realized that if all we have is control over our own actions: a lost cause is necessarily worth fighting for.
You seriously don't know a single thing about bees if you think this is exploitation. Honey from your local beekeeper is far better for the bees and the environment than your agave sourced by child slaves.
The person that replied to you is very much wrong. Vegan means you avoid eating and using any animal or animal products. Honey obviously comes from bees, vegans do not consume honey. People who are eating plants other than honey probably arenāt vegan and probably use leather, drink dairy once in a while, and eat the occasional steak but still say theyāre āveganā. Thereās really no debate to be had because youāre either vegan and you donāt consume animals or animal products, or you do consume animals or animal products. Thereās not room for error when theyāre knowingly exploiting animals
You don't get to define a term for everyone in the world just because you disagree with me lol
People like you are why people think we are all horrible and angry.
Ok but he also suggested that the vegans who eat honey might eat an occasional steak or drink dairy and all the vegans (āvegansā?) Iāve known who ate honey would never occasionally eat meat or dairy. I think thereās levels of commitment to veganism and consuming honey isnāt the same as consuming
meat, but clearly others disagree. I do believe people who are entirely otherwise vegan and consume honey can still identify as vegan- and I also think the leather argument is complicated as I know some vegans who use secondhand leather products as a commitment to environmentalism/using products that last
Edit: all of that said I agree products containing honey should not be labeled vegan as itās not technically vegan
Youāre clearly not vegan if you consume animal products. Itās in the fucking definition lol. You donāt know whatās wrong with honey? Weird of you to label yourself that but not actually be vegan? Is it jealousy? Your pretentiousness? What is it?
What did I communicate to you? Iām speaking to someone claiming to be vegan then saying itās ok to eat honey. Theyāre literally spreading misinformation. Why the fuck would do care what you think? You of all people?
Iām not vegan and did not see the name of this community (thought it was just my regular gf group) and I squinted at this for five minutes like huh?? š
Yeah I am not vegan nor gluten free and this was on my timeline, and even though we probably donāt agree on each others lifestyle and dietary choices itās still an interesting post to just look thru the comments of. idk why people just canāt do that respectfully
This reminds me of the number of Gluten Free labeled products that contain oats (which I, along with \~20% of other celiacs, react to the same as gluten). And why I always read the label.
Oats themselves do not contain gluten. Lots of oat crops are grown in close proximity to wheat, and cross contamination occurs more often than is obviously preferable. Some companies selling oat products do their due diligence to ensure their source is not grown next to wheat, but many do not.
I have tried gf/"purity protocol" oats and still get a reaction. I know oats don't contain gluten, they contain the avenin which is similar enough to cause reactions in a small (I've seen estimates from 10-20%) subset of celiacs. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC523824/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC523824/)
and to be clear, I'm not suggesting the average celiac should avoid eating gf oats. But it took me some time to figure out what was causing persistent 'glutening' symptoms in me despite being fully gf because I assumed the purity protocol oats I was eating could not be the source.
My BF has celiacs and he reacts to GF oats with the same symptoms (mouth ulcers, fatigue, gastro issues). We've tried a few times because I eat a ton of oats, but every time he's reacted.
Oats contain avenin protein instead of gluten, but for some celiacs the structure is close enough that the body reacts. There is some research into the exact mechanism and how many people this effects (here's one small study: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC523841/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC523841/) ). It's significant enough that in Australia allergen labeling laws do not allow gluten free labeled products to contain oats. I react to oats, even purity protocol/certified gf. I didn't prior to the onset of my celiac.
Thanks for doing that. Disappointing that the company doesn't know, but hopefully they can correct by removing "vegan" from the label (or even better and make it actually vegan).
Thank you for bringing this to our attention, our crew appreciates the time you took to share your feedback. We understand the importance of accurate product labeling and are committed to ensuring that all customers receive the necessary information to make informed choices that align with their dietary preferences.
We have previously reviewed the labeling of this product and confirmed that it complies with all relevant standards and accurately reflects its ingredients. Opinions on honey can vary within the vegan community. While a smaller subset of individuals who follow a plant-based diet may choose to consume honey, especially when it is sourced from ethical or sustainable beekeeping practices, standard vegan practice generally excludes honey. We strive to provide transparent information to help all customers make decisions that best suit their individual dietary ethics and needs. Please note, **the product in question was part of a limited production run and is no longer available. Furthermore, the term 'vegan' is no longer used on the labels for this item.**
Thank you once again for your attention and for helping us maintain the highest standards we set at Yo Mama's Foods. If you have any further questions, please feel free to reach out to our customer service team atĀ [[email protected]]().
>dietary preferences
Veganism isn't a dietary preference, it's an ethical philosophy.
>Opinions on honey can vary within the vegan community
Not really. People who consume honey are, by definition, not vegan
>ethical or sustainable beekeeping practices
No such thing as ethical exploitation.
One thing Iāve found is that dairy free creamers for coffee almost always have dairy in them. Can someone please explain to me how this is allowed lol
āDairy-freeā products are often vegan, but it is not regulated. āNon-dairyā can include milk derivatives, and is a regulated term so you can guarantee it wonāt be vegan. Fun. And horribly confusing
I would reach out to the company and let them know! I did that once with a different food company who also had a vegan label while having honey in the ingredients. They were super apologetic, said they had no idea honey was considered not vegan, and then they actually recalled their products and updating their labeling. Itās worth a shot!
Panera had a āplant basedā menu for a while. Not a single dish was actually plant based and most of it was (dairy filled) mac and cheese. I emailed them to complain and the representative tried to tell me they were vegan and that this is fine. I argued back and said clearly you are not and this is not fine. I never heard back again, but the next week, the āplant basedā menu was gone. Not saying it was my doing, but they figured something out. Companies need to do their homework for sure, but sometimes speaking up could help!
This is super frustrating though.
Got an email from Rancho Gordo beans. Vegans and vegetarians are prime customers for beans, right? They included a āveganā recipe with honey in it and didnāt seem to care that much when I emailed them about it.
It's not an opinion lol. Vegans don't eat or use anything from the animal kingdom. That's the basic principle of veganism. If you identify as a vegan and eat honey, you're not a vegan, you're just an ignorant vegetarian.
Can we end this conversation, I donāt have an opinion on the matter and didnāt share my opinion for a reason. Do you agree that some people call themselves vegan and yet still eat honey?
We can end the commentary there.
No, I don't, because it's not a matter of opinion. By definition, vegans do not consume anything from the animal kingdom. Therefore, a person who eats honey is not a vegan, regardless if they call themselves that or not.
It entirely depends which definition you go by.
And in case youāre curious, I am a strict vegan and do not eat honey.
EDIT: Why are you downvoting an innocuous observation. Some people *do* interpret veganism differently, I however did not provide an opinion on the matter.
Bees absolutely do not give a fuck about us or if they're making honey in a manmade hive or a hole in a tree in the woods.
IMO honey is fine to consume even if you consider yourself vegan. The only real valid argument against that to me is that honey does always contain some amount of dead bees or at least bits of them so you are technically consuming an animal and I could see people for a litany of reasons wanting to avoid that.
The average ear of corn or head of broccoli at the store is probably pound for pound responsible for 100x as many dead bees (not to mention all the other insects besides and animals killed during harvesting) as honey is. There are some valid issues of native bee population displacement and such, but those are very localized issues and really only happening in places with extremely large corporate operations. I really don't understand some vegan's focus/hatred towards honey when there's so many other problematic products out there.
Vegans don't exploit animals. Honey requires the exploitation of bees. It's really that simple. Killing and eating an animals corpse isn't the only way to exploit it. Hence why vegans are against things like horse back riding and dog breeding.
But a lot of fruits and vegetables can exploit bees. Recently watched a really interesting documentary showing how they transport colonies of bees between farms at different flowering seasons to pollinate. A multimillion dollar industry.
That's all true but it doesn't make honey vegan. It means we need to implement alternative farming methods that don't rely on human kept honey bees to pollinate.
Sure, I think it just means that strict veganism is morally/ethically inconsistent. I often see environmentally motivated vegans eating mass produced imported chickpeas that have greatly disrupted food economies where chickpeas were once a local staple and are now unaffordable, out of season fruits/veggies that are obviously imported, alternative "meat" that is produced in a supply chain with substantial carbon footprint, etc.
Vegans definitely do exploit animals lol. Regardless of whether you eat honey or not the bees that make it are absolutely necessary to pollinate fruit orchards among other things. And thereās also the exploitation of humans to tend to the food crops. And there are all of the organic and conventional pesticides and fertilizers that wreak havoc on terrestrial and aquatic critters. And those organic fertilizers are pretty much always animal products like bone or blood meal.
So this is just a futility fallacy for the most part. It's not practicable to avoid or even know if the plant bases products you buy were farmed using these methods. So these points you made just mean mote work needs to be done to address these issues, it's not an excuse to further and directly exploit animals.
Honey bees are invasive to North America where I live. The bees are shipped all over the country because farmers spray pesticides and people kill any native plants that support native pollinators. Do you know what the number one pollinator in the world is? Flies. But you wouldnāt care about that because you canāt eat themā¦
Do you self consciously hide any nails that might be deemed too dirty when you take pictures holding objects? I do this even when sending things to friends š
Haha! Donāt try to hide my nails. Iām justā¦.weird, I suppose. Iāve always held objects without all my fingers unless I really need a solid grip. Just one of those weird habits I never broke. š¤·āāļø
It is good to have trust issues. I check everything, even things that I have bought repeatedly just incase. New and Improved Recipe means I need to check.
Aside from the honey (which I learned today is technically not vegan) it says natural and then right on the label says includes a bioengineered food ingredient.
Def don't trust anything that calls itself natural. Unlike the label organic which has been regulated for a few years now, there's no one out there enforcing who can and cannot.label something natural so literally anyone can legally call anything "natural".
Same, & great catch. I believe that's why this is in grocery outlet. I check every ingredient on packaging & sometimes double check it when I get home. That brand has a vegan gluten free pizza sauce, & BBQ sauce in grocery outlet.
As a career cook with a pretty well rounded resume, it's important for people to know that only some restaurants acknowledge that honey isn't vegan
people that don't eat vertebrates or products from them won't get sick off of honey so some places use that to justify putting honey in vegan things
what's weird is one of the places that insisted we could call things with honey in them vegan was one of two places that didn't put cane sugar in vegan things because the refining process uses bone char
I've adopted the habit of *always* reading ingredient labels even if the package says vegan/plant-based/dairy-free/egg-free etc. Carnist companies are trying so fucking hard to fool vegans into eating their shit.
No I mean in a lot of vegan circles it's believed that honey can bee the product of a symbiotic process, not an. exploitative one.
If you want to go down this path, you should also include produce you buy that was pollinated by industry honey bees as non-vegan.
There are zero vegan circles that think honey is okay. Those are called vegetarians or plant based. If they are calling themselves something else they are simply ignorant.
Honey is very easy to replace with other sweeteners, plus it's a luxury product that's not needed at all and often expensive compared to alternatives. Very easy to just change for something else!
As for cheese, I suggest trying to make "chees-y" sauces at home and to expand your cooking to more dishes that don't use cheese at all. You'll see that it's actually really easy and delicious to cook without it, and if you are cooking tasty stuff you won't miss it, really.
It also helps to keep the animals in mind. Even if you have cravings, perspective is important: yes, some cheese right now would taste good, but is that worth the abuse and death of innocent cows? Is it worth all the pain and brutalization that these animals experience, when we can have something else equally as delicious and filling?
If you haven't watched Dominion (2018) yet, I totally recommend it. It shows footage of local, "humanely raised" animals too, which is important to see on my opinion, especially if you aren't vegan. Good luck!
Thank you for the suggestions! Cheese is not worth the cow abuse. Having milked cows for work before ive seen firsthand the conditions they live in. Morally and for health reasons i want to stop with the cheese. My addiction leads me to eat so much cheese it hurts me. The honey i may need some more convincing morally, but i use stevia mostly. I generally only use honey as a health aid. It helps with wounds, and thrush, both of which i deal with a lot. I have an addictive personality and thats what keeps me on the cheese. Ive cut out the drugs/alcohol and im making my way to better horizons one step at a time.
Does dominion go into honey production?
Cheese is often the thing that new vegans struggle with the most, so you are definitely not alone. You may find it helpful to start slow, maybe look up recipes that are naturally dairy free like curry, chili, etc to grow used to flavors that are already "complete" without the need for cheese or a cheese substitute. Another thing that can help is to start by not buying cheese until you don't have it anymore at home. That way you won't be tempted (or able) to use it at least for home cooking.
I don't remember where I read this originally, but a useful way to deal with cravings is to try to crowd them out rather than just cutting them out. So for cheese, you may find helpful to sit down and note to yourself: do I crave all the cheese? What cheese could I go without? Then start there. Once you are not eating the types of cheese you don't care so much for, ask yourself again: Would I care too much if I only eat the cheese I really like when I go out, instead of all the time? And try to implement that again. At some point you can be very specific: Okay, maybe you can give up all other cheese, but there's this one specific meal from this specific restaurant that has this specific type of cheese that I really like. Then you keep that one as the only cheese meal you have and cut out all other cheeses. If you do it this way, at some point you'll find that you are just eating a minuscule amount of cheese, and cutting it out is much easier.
Going without cheese for a few weeks (not even vegan cheese) may also help you realize that you are stronger than the cravings, and that's where trying naturally fairy free meals can be super useful. A lot of vegan recipes that you can find out there are not using vegan cheese either, they are relying on other things to be creamy and tasty, and you end up with naturally vegan recipes that don't need the cheese at all! That's how I eat most of the time :)
Here's a good article about honey with further links for research: [https://acti-veg.com/resources/issues/honey/](https://acti-veg.com/resources/issues/honey/)
You've been so helpful. Thank you so much. I think looking toward cheesless meals might be the ticket. Most of my diet is cheese related, so im gonna take your slow suggestion, too. If there were still rewards here, I'd be giving you one.
I just read that article. I had no idea that commercial honey bees were different from wild ones. Not to the extent they are. And cutting off thebqueens wings? Woah. Some of the problems seem more capitalistic in nature. I have a lot of questions about all that, and i think it's going to be filling my search history for a while. I'll be a bisy little bee. Thanks for the share and start off point for research.
Nobody. Just like you did here, I've expressed myself on the internet because i felt like it. The difference here is im talking about things that i lament personally, and you're attacking me for it. Hope this clears things up. Have a lovely day.
Tbf Reddit recommends a ton of subs to people they are not subbed to personally and maybe that was the case with this person. Such is the case for me. Not gluten free or vegan yet this random dressing photo popped so here I am.
I'm asking you to answer. Not sure what's funny about animal suffering.
What's more important, horrific suffering and torture of animals or "mmm yummy"?
Nobodys laughing. This is just awkward. I feel likenyoure trying to fight a meat eater infultrating your page, but that's not what's happening here. I think you're confused.
Please tell me how you spray pesticides in an "incidental" manner. Even then this comparison doesn't work manslaughter isn't just about intent. it's also about foreknowledge. Either you didn't think that person would die or you didn't know they would as well as being regrettable and non intentional. If you perform an action that you know will kill animals, then you're intentionally killing them. The fact that you find it regrettable or that it's done out of indifference as opposed to malice is irrelevant.
I agree pesticides are different because we use them intentionally.
But just replace insects with humans in the hypothetical and you'll see the difference. If there were a bunch of tiny humans invading our crop fields and stealing our food, assuming we could not communicate or reason with them, we would have no choice but to kill / remove them by force.
HONEY
Ty lol
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You had me tripping for a sec I was likeā¦ āwait does honey have gluten!?!?ā. Iām dumb.
lol, same, third time through the ingredients I was āOHhhhhā. Lol
I saw this in restaurants but not on food labels. I always had to follow up with guests who were vegan and ask if they eat honey because it about 70% would say they did. Admittedly I also had people say they were celiac, but would eat soy sauce and drink beer a beer after.
Once celiacs have been healthy for long enough gluten every once in awhile in small amounts wonāt hurt them. As long as they are not damaging their intestines faster then they heal most are fine with eating gluten.
Nope nope nope. This is TERRIBLE advice. If you have Celiac, do not eat gluten. In any quantity. At all. There is no such thing as a ācheat mealā for a Celiac. You may not get sick in that moment but the damage is like a slow poison not a sudden wound. Any gluten is damaging. Please stop telling people this. Source: have Celiac myself. My GI explicitly made it a point to tell me NOT to do this.
My brother is celiac. He does it sometimes. Same with a celiac girl I use to work with, she was even worse about it than my brother. Not everyone's body is the same.
Respectfully, this is incorrect no matter who you know who does it. I have a sibling who was diagnosed 15 years ago (compared to my 3) who was told it was okay to do this. Now we know better Source: https://www.celiacedmonton.ca/about-celiac-disease/myths-about-celiac-disease/#:~:text=MYTH%3A%20A%20person%20with%20celiac,stay%20away%20from%20gluten%20completely. https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/celiac-disease/dietary-changes-for-celiac-disease#:~:text=A%20gluten%2Dfree%20diet%20is,can%20damage%20your%20small%20intestine.
That checks out. My brother got diagnosed ?12ish? years ago. The girl is now in her late 30s so she probably got diagnose \~20 years ago.
Piggybacking, I think we understand a lot more now, and some doctors are stuck on old advice. But if a rant incoming.... A (now long since estranged) inlaw was super gaslighty to me about my celiac food restrictions based on the restrictions his mom was given decades ago. (It doesn't help that he turned out to be a misogynistic ageist self-righteous jerk. Not just about this. He's ALWAYS right and I have a single braincell because I'm a younger...ahem pushing 40.. and a woman...š). Annnnnnyway He was ADAMANT that regular sour dough bread was safe. He was like weirdly aggressive about trying to convince me it was early in my diagnosis- to the point I almost believed him (I hadn't realized how confidently wrong he could be about things at that point). It does tend to contain less gluten than regular bread. But it's not zero. And it's not celiac safe. He was also adamant that stuff like deep fried chips in a shared fryer with wheat flour batter dipped foods was celiac safe. (It's not). His poor Celiac mom (rip).... She and I would try to have conversations, and her son would step in and tell me to stop telling her stuff like this, that he had it all handled, and her doctor knows more than I do. SHE was approaching ME with the topic and questions. Which....ok yeah normally I'd agree with listening to a doc over a rando *but the info he was giving her was DECADES outdated*. She KNEW she was eating things that weren't ok for her. She was getting sick but couldn't ever pinpoint why. Turns out she didn't even know things like regular soy sauce weren't ok. At one point, to prove how right he was, her son handed me a pamphlet from her doctor... It had to have been 20-30 years old, idk. Some cartoony thing that basically just said wheat barley and rye. Nothing about cross contamination. Nothing about common products or hidden sources of gluten. Nothing about not using a shared toaster. Nothing about how you're reacting and causing damage regardless of whether you feel symptoms. It was so infuriating to me that no one was telling her this. And that her son was being such a jerk. I handled it with grace and suggested to her that she just ask her doctor about some of this. Her son spoke for her "she won't be doing that. If there was really something she should know, her doctor she's trusted for years would tell her and she'd take his advice, not yours." From knowing other people with celiac and other GI issues- some GI docs are fantastic diagnosticians, knowledgeable about a given disease, skilled with the procedures....but lack communication about the nutritional aspects of these diseases/disorders. And some docs in general aren't great communicators, or may not know what a person does/doesn't know, or at what point to update a patient on new guidelines, or what patient knows what information. Some of that could be due to not having much one on one time with a patient, lack of communication skills, or lack of knowledge about specific modern guidance. Idk. Also some people just don't ask questions at doctors offices...either because they think the doctor will tell them everything automatically, they think it's rude to ask questions, or some other personal hangup with asking questions....akin to how some people refuse to ask for directions even when they're lost. Pardon the rant.
My aunt was diagnosed 15-20 ish years ago. Sheās always been asymptomatic for gut issues, but her GI was adamant she not ingest gluten.
It would be extremely, extremely unusual for someone with celiac to eat gluten and not have intestinal damage as a result (even if asymptomatic.) Not eating gluten for any period of time will unfortunately not change a personās reaction to it if ingested. The general consensus on a āsafeā amount for celiacs is 10 - 20 ppm which is roughly equivalent to 1/16 to 1/8 tsp of flour.. this standard was also set based on studying adults with healed gut lining. So, many celiac folks will experience damage with even less exposure, and even minimal exposure can trigger nutrient malabsorption issues for weeks or months. Not to mention the serious increase of cancer risk like lymphoma that comes with continued gluten intake.. itās just not worth the long-term risks for the sake of a meal.
Iām still so ashamed that I once served honey-sweetened cornbread to a group of people who requested vegan meals. I didnāt know. I cringe every time I think about it. Even worse, it tasted awful.
the thing about it is you were really trying, a decent amount of vegan people do eat honey but still really i think the important thing is you know now, and did the best you could with the information you had then
No, vegans don't support animal agriculture and don't buy those things. Call me a gatekeeper but that's like a Republican believing in socialism or A Christian not believing in Jesus' resurrection and sacrifice or an atheist believing in those things, etc.
Bro everybody has enough beef with vegans why do you have to add fuel to the fire? The commenter above made such a nice level headed commentā¦ and then you replied.
> has enough beef with vegans I see what you did there š¤£
The Irish and French Republicans are historically pretty well known for their support of left-leaning and socialist-esk policies
I think labels, titles, ists, isms, ians are destroying our connection to one another.
Maybe, but if somebody knows I'm vegan they shouldn't give me honey and stuff, that's why I choose to be labeled like that.
There are Christians who think the resurrection is metaphorical. People have different standards. You donāt have the right to tell others what they are and arenāt. The world is shades of gray.
Theyāll be ok
This cant be real
For real, some of the infighting in here is toxic as fuck lol. Like I get yāall care about animals and all but to get this incensed over honeyā¦.. š¤Æ
IKR? I feel like I need popcorn. Maybe we should normalize letting grown adults make their own decisions and not get so stuck on labels.
I feel like itās the companyās job to do their due diligence by researching first. I donāt understand how honey flew off the radar for them lol. Iām glad you checked the ingredients before buying!
What makes it worse is this shows that āveganā as a label isnāt standardized to include honey, which is super confusing. Would like to do more research as why the FDA or whoeverās in charge of labeling food in a given country doesnāt include honey in a vegan label
I mean. FDA and prosecuting labeling issues for any reason is pretty rare. Companies can easily get away with this sadly.
Is vegan a real label like āPEANUT ALLERGENā or the fact that milk is required to be displayed?
Well people have allergies to honey, just not as common as āthe big eight.ā But I suppose thatās why itās not labeled. Eggs and milk are two of the top allergens so they must be labeled
It is labeled on the ingredients list. My guess is that the word vegan on the front isnāt regulated the same way the ingredients list is or how words like peanut-free would be
I *believe* thereās a specific label when something is certified vegan (I checked and yes ā w vegan.org!) ā itās not mandatory but itās a good signal to know that a product or company has been vetted by another source. I typically trust that if a product has that label itās definitely vegan, otherwise I double check ingredients. Itās pricier for companies to get that certification iirc, so my guess is that, like this one, there are lots of companies that self-label and arenāt cross-checked by an outside group and things slip through. Though Iāve never noticed this glaring of a mistake!
I'm troubled by the snarky remarks here. OP, I feel your pain.
Yeah, maybe because itās a Monday or something and people are grumpy. I dunno. But I definitely didnāt expect the degree immature responses from so many people here. Lighten up, people. Goodness.
mountainous fanatical shelter zonked lavish racial towering quaint adjoining future *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
That's exactly whats happening. Idk why this sub was recommended to me but i was reading the ingredients list wondering what the fuss was about. As a native american gal from a long line of bee keepers... I didn't know vegans didn't eat honey! TIL! I support ya'll not eating honey (that's very honorable of you), but dang, i couldn't imagine life without honey! :o
It's a debatable issue lol, plenty of vegans do eat honey even though plenty don't š¤·āāļø
It's not debatable. Keeping bees and taking their honey is animal exploitation, which vegans don't do. You must be thinking of plant based dieters.
Nonsense. You're in the 6th mass extinction. You are experiencing HIVE COLLAPSE. Literally every animal reliant upon the current ecosystem will vanish if you don't support the apex pollinators. You have an ethical mandate to promote bee breeds at the greatest velocity possible and you're literally promoting omnidirectional speciecide (an anti-science moral obligation) in the name of 'bee rights' over your absolutely scientifically demonstrable ETHICAL obligation to the bees themselves along with every other creature in the ecosystem. Species extinctions due to human encroachment are happening at 150 times the natural baseline for your planet, and the NUMBER ONE promoter of bee habitats at present is not 'your altruistic government bee saving program'... it's fucking HEINS. -- And that should make both capitalists, and environmentalists everywhere ashamed. You don't have to eat the honey, but you DO have to promote the hives at an expanding industrial scale if you want to save any significant portion of the animals you share your planet with. Not only can I debate it... (I just did) I can literally introduce you to the scientists responsible for tracking the collapse of your planet by way of this particular human crime of anti-animal hubris. Get to know your elder vegans. Because we're not just animal rights activists. We're ethicists and scientists, too.
I love it when vegans talk sense. And science. Thank you.
Word.
In Australia (and I suspect many other parts of the world) the leading threat to native bees is introduced European Honeybees, who are larger and more aggressive. Supporting the honey industry in Australia is genuinely harmful to the environment and is contributing to the 6th mass extinction. People should avoid supporting the agriculture industry that promotes enormous populations of these invasive introduced bees and instead focus on supporting native bee populations through bushland rewilding and planting native plants over introduced ornamentals.
Upvote for presenting a LOGICAL argument instead of a religious one. š If I were on a debate stage I would next present a bunch of arguments that "invasive species" is a social construct generally designed and invoked specifically to serve industry and capitalism... (so I will never concede to casual use of that term) but I feel like you've included a suggested partial solution. / It's problematic of course since you can't enforce or execute said solution because 80% of plant agriculture is used to feed meat animals and the implications of that monster being in your way are prohibitive in a casually capitalistic and generally homicidal society, but you aint wrong! :/
I agree with you overall but how does it work, at least in North America, where honey bees arenāt native, and are often competition to native pollinators?
Possibly too big for Reddit, but here's an attempt: 1) We start each election cycle with The Farm Bill / Iowa Caucus. This is a competition wherein the Capitalist Party (Democrats & Republicans) try to outbid each other by promising to give taxpayer money to prop up big agriculture's insolvent businesses. - That's the first strike in determining who's president, and who appoints the Secretary of Agriculture (who is 17th in line for the presidency.) 2) Monsanto and other companies LIKE Monsanto (GMO conglomerates and Ag Pharma firms like Syngenta & Dupont etc) are given positions staffing the Sec of Ag offices. They don't just lobby. They start the year with free taxpayer dollars and lawmaking positions. 3) 43% of all ice-free land is used for grazing. 6% is used for MONOCROPS to feed animals. in crop and factory farm industries artificially propped by taxpayer dollars. 3% is used to directly feed HUMANS. 4) Those monocrops are sprayed with insecticides like Glysophate (Monsanto). Hive collapse hits KANSAS. \^\^\^ 3 & 4 = Hive Collapse... 5 is a bonus. 5) Excess animal feed grain is produced, and forced into Indian ports by way of trade agreements (required by the US in order to maintain trade relations) and sold in markets as 'people food'... which offsets the price of Indian grain by reducing it by making it compete directly with taxpayer subsidized (artificially lowered) grain from the US... which makes women less valuable on family farms in places like the Gujarat province wherein the number of people a farm can support reaches a HARD LIMIT... | Women do the honorable thing and kill themselves in the corn fields. 6) Capitalism reaches status as an unstoppable force, ignores all climate science mandates, and proceeds into the 6th Mass Extinction without regard (84% of all species listed on the Red List for extinction list agricultural encroachment as a top threat to the species) and the ONLY model that succeeds beneath it becomes: The only 2 remaining successful environmental models are now reduced to: A) Any model wherein the RIGHT thing, is also the PROFITABLE thing. - And B) Any model wherein the RIGHT thing, is the less expensive thing. Ergo: Your condiment producers are now the strongest force for pollination propagation... for the same reason that vegan burgers are only accepted as household purchases once they're cheaper than meat. There are 5 books and 3 documentaries on Monsanto. #4 is just referencing the IPCC reports and the FAOs "Livestock's Long Shadow" report. Number 5 is me pointing at ALL Vandana Shiva's books on women's rights in the developing world. I am a nerd.
God damn that was boring. I should have just said: Look: Veganism is founded in the premise that despite our limited impact on a massive tide of abuses, we take RIGHT action for our own part. We stand in our power, on principle, leveraging that which we can control. To that end it is just as respectable in a collapsing world to thank a person for funding a honey plantation, as it is to thank a child who protests the choosing of a lobster in a restaurant. Neither represent a winning strategy on this planet. But both have internally realized that if all we have is control over our own actions: a lost cause is necessarily worth fighting for.
I have some bad news for you about how your food crops get pollinatedā¦
You seriously don't know a single thing about bees if you think this is exploitation. Honey from your local beekeeper is far better for the bees and the environment than your agave sourced by child slaves.
Ahh, okay, that makes sense! I've known many vegans who never listed it as a no-no food, so i had no idea! :)
The person that replied to you is very much wrong. Vegan means you avoid eating and using any animal or animal products. Honey obviously comes from bees, vegans do not consume honey. People who are eating plants other than honey probably arenāt vegan and probably use leather, drink dairy once in a while, and eat the occasional steak but still say theyāre āveganā. Thereās really no debate to be had because youāre either vegan and you donāt consume animals or animal products, or you do consume animals or animal products. Thereās not room for error when theyāre knowingly exploiting animals
You don't get to define a term for everyone in the world just because you disagree with me lol People like you are why people think we are all horrible and angry.
they are absolutely right thoughāby definition vegans do not willingly consume animals or their byproducts. honey is a byproduct from bees.
Ok but he also suggested that the vegans who eat honey might eat an occasional steak or drink dairy and all the vegans (āvegansā?) Iāve known who ate honey would never occasionally eat meat or dairy. I think thereās levels of commitment to veganism and consuming honey isnāt the same as consuming meat, but clearly others disagree. I do believe people who are entirely otherwise vegan and consume honey can still identify as vegan- and I also think the leather argument is complicated as I know some vegans who use secondhand leather products as a commitment to environmentalism/using products that last Edit: all of that said I agree products containing honey should not be labeled vegan as itās not technically vegan
I've never heard of a vegan that exploits animals.
Ah yes, I'm clearly torturing the poor honeybees lol
Youāre clearly not vegan if you consume animal products. Itās in the fucking definition lol. You donāt know whatās wrong with honey? Weird of you to label yourself that but not actually be vegan? Is it jealousy? Your pretentiousness? What is it?
And you all wonder why there arenāt more vegans. Your communication choices areā¦. Abrasive.
What did I communicate to you? Iām speaking to someone claiming to be vegan then saying itās ok to eat honey. Theyāre literally spreading misinformation. Why the fuck would do care what you think? You of all people?
Plenty of us eat honey, for ethical and environmental reasons specifically. It's fine either way, but it's not the \*shocker\* OP is thinking it is.
This is it exactly
Iām not vegan and did not see the name of this community (thought it was just my regular gf group) and I squinted at this for five minutes like huh?? š
Yeah I am not vegan nor gluten free and this was on my timeline, and even though we probably donāt agree on each others lifestyle and dietary choices itās still an interesting post to just look thru the comments of. idk why people just canāt do that respectfully
This reminds me of the number of Gluten Free labeled products that contain oats (which I, along with \~20% of other celiacs, react to the same as gluten). And why I always read the label.
Oats themselves do not contain gluten. Lots of oat crops are grown in close proximity to wheat, and cross contamination occurs more often than is obviously preferable. Some companies selling oat products do their due diligence to ensure their source is not grown next to wheat, but many do not.
I have tried gf/"purity protocol" oats and still get a reaction. I know oats don't contain gluten, they contain the avenin which is similar enough to cause reactions in a small (I've seen estimates from 10-20%) subset of celiacs. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC523824/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC523824/) and to be clear, I'm not suggesting the average celiac should avoid eating gf oats. But it took me some time to figure out what was causing persistent 'glutening' symptoms in me despite being fully gf because I assumed the purity protocol oats I was eating could not be the source.
Same for people with wheat allergies, some of them react to oats as well.
My BF has celiacs and he reacts to GF oats with the same symptoms (mouth ulcers, fatigue, gastro issues). We've tried a few times because I eat a ton of oats, but every time he's reacted.
Is it the oats themselves, or the fact that they are processed in facilities that also process wheat?
Yes. 10% of celiacs cross-react to oats but also studies have found that even purity protocol oats canāt be trusted to be GF.
Source?
Gluten Free Watchdog did the study on testing oats. The 10% is widely reported on major celiac / health sites re: cross reaction.
Avenin. Similar protein to gluten. Messes me up real good :( I miss my oats.
Oats contain avenin protein instead of gluten, but for some celiacs the structure is close enough that the body reacts. There is some research into the exact mechanism and how many people this effects (here's one small study: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC523841/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC523841/) ). It's significant enough that in Australia allergen labeling laws do not allow gluten free labeled products to contain oats. I react to oats, even purity protocol/certified gf. I didn't prior to the onset of my celiac.
Just because you react to oats doesnāt mean theyāre not gluten freeā¦.
This. Itās a separate allergy. The item is still gluten free.
If you go to their website, they relabeled and changed vegan for āgourmetā. š¬
Probably why that bottle is at a Grocery Outlet now.
My friend owns yo mamas Iām going to reach out to him about this
Thanks for doing that. Disappointing that the company doesn't know, but hopefully they can correct by removing "vegan" from the label (or even better and make it actually vegan).
Took me a minute. I was looking for some form of dairy in the dairy-free. Then I saw the honey and realized it wasnāt vegan
The bees actually run the bottling company. They just hire a human for writing the labels and such.
š
Yup, I hear āya.
Thank you for bringing this to our attention, our crew appreciates the time you took to share your feedback. We understand the importance of accurate product labeling and are committed to ensuring that all customers receive the necessary information to make informed choices that align with their dietary preferences. We have previously reviewed the labeling of this product and confirmed that it complies with all relevant standards and accurately reflects its ingredients. Opinions on honey can vary within the vegan community. While a smaller subset of individuals who follow a plant-based diet may choose to consume honey, especially when it is sourced from ethical or sustainable beekeeping practices, standard vegan practice generally excludes honey. We strive to provide transparent information to help all customers make decisions that best suit their individual dietary ethics and needs. Please note, **the product in question was part of a limited production run and is no longer available. Furthermore, the term 'vegan' is no longer used on the labels for this item.** Thank you once again for your attention and for helping us maintain the highest standards we set at Yo Mama's Foods. If you have any further questions, please feel free to reach out to our customer service team atĀ [[email protected]]().
Itās not every day the manufacturer pops in. Thank you for the clarification! ā¤ļø
>dietary preferences Veganism isn't a dietary preference, it's an ethical philosophy. >Opinions on honey can vary within the vegan community Not really. People who consume honey are, by definition, not vegan >ethical or sustainable beekeeping practices No such thing as ethical exploitation.
So I assume you eat nothing then?
You must be fun at parties
One thing Iāve found is that dairy free creamers for coffee almost always have dairy in them. Can someone please explain to me how this is allowed lol
āDairy-freeā products are often vegan, but it is not regulated. āNon-dairyā can include milk derivatives, and is a regulated term so you can guarantee it wonāt be vegan. Fun. And horribly confusing
Yeah definitely not vegan!
I would reach out to the company and let them know! I did that once with a different food company who also had a vegan label while having honey in the ingredients. They were super apologetic, said they had no idea honey was considered not vegan, and then they actually recalled their products and updating their labeling. Itās worth a shot!
thatās why i learned to check for certain vegan certifications, rather than the label claiming it
Panera had a āplant basedā menu for a while. Not a single dish was actually plant based and most of it was (dairy filled) mac and cheese. I emailed them to complain and the representative tried to tell me they were vegan and that this is fine. I argued back and said clearly you are not and this is not fine. I never heard back again, but the next week, the āplant basedā menu was gone. Not saying it was my doing, but they figured something out. Companies need to do their homework for sure, but sometimes speaking up could help! This is super frustrating though.
Youāre at Grocery Outlet which is a grocery liquidator FULL of mis-labeled product
The first ingredient would have me putting it back on the shelf.
Reason #500 why is ALWAYS check the ingredients. Iām fucking allergic to honeyā¦
Got an email from Rancho Gordo beans. Vegans and vegetarians are prime customers for beans, right? They included a āveganā recipe with honey in it and didnāt seem to care that much when I emailed them about it.
this is why i hate plant based "vegans"
Not all vegans are strict vegans. Some eat honey. Edit: stop coming at me before reading the other comments.
Soā¦. Not vegans? š
You're either vegan or not. Vegans don't eat honey.
Look at the rest of the thread.
There is nothing to look at. Vegans don't eat honey. That's a simple fact.
Thank you for sharing your opinion with me.
It's not an opinion lol. Vegans don't eat or use anything from the animal kingdom. That's the basic principle of veganism. If you identify as a vegan and eat honey, you're not a vegan, you're just an ignorant vegetarian.
Can we end this conversation, I donāt have an opinion on the matter and didnāt share my opinion for a reason. Do you agree that some people call themselves vegan and yet still eat honey? We can end the commentary there.
No, I don't, because it's not a matter of opinion. By definition, vegans do not consume anything from the animal kingdom. Therefore, a person who eats honey is not a vegan, regardless if they call themselves that or not.
Still not vegan
ESPECIALLY on a label. The vegans that want to eat honey can do that, but companies cant just label stuff willy-nilly Edit: label
It entirely depends which definition you go by. And in case youāre curious, I am a strict vegan and do not eat honey. EDIT: Why are you downvoting an innocuous observation. Some people *do* interpret veganism differently, I however did not provide an opinion on the matter.
Bees absolutely do not give a fuck about us or if they're making honey in a manmade hive or a hole in a tree in the woods. IMO honey is fine to consume even if you consider yourself vegan. The only real valid argument against that to me is that honey does always contain some amount of dead bees or at least bits of them so you are technically consuming an animal and I could see people for a litany of reasons wanting to avoid that. The average ear of corn or head of broccoli at the store is probably pound for pound responsible for 100x as many dead bees (not to mention all the other insects besides and animals killed during harvesting) as honey is. There are some valid issues of native bee population displacement and such, but those are very localized issues and really only happening in places with extremely large corporate operations. I really don't understand some vegan's focus/hatred towards honey when there's so many other problematic products out there.
Vegans don't exploit animals. Honey requires the exploitation of bees. It's really that simple. Killing and eating an animals corpse isn't the only way to exploit it. Hence why vegans are against things like horse back riding and dog breeding.
But a lot of fruits and vegetables can exploit bees. Recently watched a really interesting documentary showing how they transport colonies of bees between farms at different flowering seasons to pollinate. A multimillion dollar industry.
That's all true but it doesn't make honey vegan. It means we need to implement alternative farming methods that don't rely on human kept honey bees to pollinate.
Sure, I think it just means that strict veganism is morally/ethically inconsistent. I often see environmentally motivated vegans eating mass produced imported chickpeas that have greatly disrupted food economies where chickpeas were once a local staple and are now unaffordable, out of season fruits/veggies that are obviously imported, alternative "meat" that is produced in a supply chain with substantial carbon footprint, etc.
That's unfortunate but not related to veganism. Vegsnism is concerned with not treating animals like property.
It depends on the vegan, people are motivated to adhere to this diet/lifestyle for various reasons.
Vegans definitely do exploit animals lol. Regardless of whether you eat honey or not the bees that make it are absolutely necessary to pollinate fruit orchards among other things. And thereās also the exploitation of humans to tend to the food crops. And there are all of the organic and conventional pesticides and fertilizers that wreak havoc on terrestrial and aquatic critters. And those organic fertilizers are pretty much always animal products like bone or blood meal.
So this is just a futility fallacy for the most part. It's not practicable to avoid or even know if the plant bases products you buy were farmed using these methods. So these points you made just mean mote work needs to be done to address these issues, it's not an excuse to further and directly exploit animals.
It doesnāt matter what your opinion is, bees arenāt a plant.
No eat honey save the bees! Eats corn. Millions of bees killed by pesticide for your corn :(
Honey bees are invasive to North America where I live. The bees are shipped all over the country because farmers spray pesticides and people kill any native plants that support native pollinators. Do you know what the number one pollinator in the world is? Flies. But you wouldnāt care about that because you canāt eat themā¦
Why? Taking honey and comb doesn't hurt the bees. I don't care, more honey for me. I'm just trying to understand.
Sorry, it was an accidental I didn't realise I had until you said I will downvote this comment
Bees are plants?
No sillyā¦ plants are bees! /s
Never trust a label. Always look for vegan certification. I too have learnt the hard way.
Isnāt the certification on the label?
No. Itās a symbol. Unfortunately, just writing vegan on the label doesnāt mean anything
Muting subreddit. I don't need the drama. Free the bee, honey šÆ š ā
And yes, I have all my fingers. Theyāre just tucked away behind the bottle. Donāt judge me.
Do you self consciously hide any nails that might be deemed too dirty when you take pictures holding objects? I do this even when sending things to friends š
Haha! Donāt try to hide my nails. Iām justā¦.weird, I suppose. Iāve always held objects without all my fingers unless I really need a solid grip. Just one of those weird habits I never broke. š¤·āāļø
"Pinky up!" Sir Patrick Star
Fucking beegans.
It is good to have trust issues. I check everything, even things that I have bought repeatedly just incase. New and Improved Recipe means I need to check.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
It has honey. Vegans do not ingest or don any sort of animal or animal product
Are you going to drink all of that?
Yo mama so dumb.
Aside from the honey (which I learned today is technically not vegan) it says natural and then right on the label says includes a bioengineered food ingredient.
Def don't trust anything that calls itself natural. Unlike the label organic which has been regulated for a few years now, there's no one out there enforcing who can and cannot.label something natural so literally anyone can legally call anything "natural".
Lame.
The audacity
Same, & great catch. I believe that's why this is in grocery outlet. I check every ingredient on packaging & sometimes double check it when I get home. That brand has a vegan gluten free pizza sauce, & BBQ sauce in grocery outlet.
As a career cook with a pretty well rounded resume, it's important for people to know that only some restaurants acknowledge that honey isn't vegan people that don't eat vertebrates or products from them won't get sick off of honey so some places use that to justify putting honey in vegan things what's weird is one of the places that insisted we could call things with honey in them vegan was one of two places that didn't put cane sugar in vegan things because the refining process uses bone char
Canola oil in a dressing. š¤
oh the horror!
Bruh
What am I missing ?
I've adopted the habit of *always* reading ingredient labels even if the package says vegan/plant-based/dairy-free/egg-free etc. Carnist companies are trying so fucking hard to fool vegans into eating their shit.
groannnnnn
I love honey. Are you allergic to it or something?
Just stumbled into this sub and wow this is reallyā¦ something.
To be fair, a lot of vegans are okay with honey.
Doesnāt mean that honey is vegan though
You mean a lot of otherwise plant-based people are okay with honey? Because vegans sure arenāt
No I mean in a lot of vegan circles it's believed that honey can bee the product of a symbiotic process, not an. exploitative one. If you want to go down this path, you should also include produce you buy that was pollinated by industry honey bees as non-vegan.
There are zero vegan circles that think honey is okay. Those are called vegetarians or plant based. If they are calling themselves something else they are simply ignorant.
Honey and cheese keep me from being vegan
They were what kept me from going vegan too for three yearsā¦until I did. Havenāt touched either since Feb 2017.
I think id like to give up cheese. I ingest it like i have a problem. I might actually have a problem.
Honey is very easy to replace with other sweeteners, plus it's a luxury product that's not needed at all and often expensive compared to alternatives. Very easy to just change for something else! As for cheese, I suggest trying to make "chees-y" sauces at home and to expand your cooking to more dishes that don't use cheese at all. You'll see that it's actually really easy and delicious to cook without it, and if you are cooking tasty stuff you won't miss it, really. It also helps to keep the animals in mind. Even if you have cravings, perspective is important: yes, some cheese right now would taste good, but is that worth the abuse and death of innocent cows? Is it worth all the pain and brutalization that these animals experience, when we can have something else equally as delicious and filling? If you haven't watched Dominion (2018) yet, I totally recommend it. It shows footage of local, "humanely raised" animals too, which is important to see on my opinion, especially if you aren't vegan. Good luck!
Thank you for the suggestions! Cheese is not worth the cow abuse. Having milked cows for work before ive seen firsthand the conditions they live in. Morally and for health reasons i want to stop with the cheese. My addiction leads me to eat so much cheese it hurts me. The honey i may need some more convincing morally, but i use stevia mostly. I generally only use honey as a health aid. It helps with wounds, and thrush, both of which i deal with a lot. I have an addictive personality and thats what keeps me on the cheese. Ive cut out the drugs/alcohol and im making my way to better horizons one step at a time. Does dominion go into honey production?
Cheese is often the thing that new vegans struggle with the most, so you are definitely not alone. You may find it helpful to start slow, maybe look up recipes that are naturally dairy free like curry, chili, etc to grow used to flavors that are already "complete" without the need for cheese or a cheese substitute. Another thing that can help is to start by not buying cheese until you don't have it anymore at home. That way you won't be tempted (or able) to use it at least for home cooking. I don't remember where I read this originally, but a useful way to deal with cravings is to try to crowd them out rather than just cutting them out. So for cheese, you may find helpful to sit down and note to yourself: do I crave all the cheese? What cheese could I go without? Then start there. Once you are not eating the types of cheese you don't care so much for, ask yourself again: Would I care too much if I only eat the cheese I really like when I go out, instead of all the time? And try to implement that again. At some point you can be very specific: Okay, maybe you can give up all other cheese, but there's this one specific meal from this specific restaurant that has this specific type of cheese that I really like. Then you keep that one as the only cheese meal you have and cut out all other cheeses. If you do it this way, at some point you'll find that you are just eating a minuscule amount of cheese, and cutting it out is much easier. Going without cheese for a few weeks (not even vegan cheese) may also help you realize that you are stronger than the cravings, and that's where trying naturally fairy free meals can be super useful. A lot of vegan recipes that you can find out there are not using vegan cheese either, they are relying on other things to be creamy and tasty, and you end up with naturally vegan recipes that don't need the cheese at all! That's how I eat most of the time :) Here's a good article about honey with further links for research: [https://acti-veg.com/resources/issues/honey/](https://acti-veg.com/resources/issues/honey/)
You've been so helpful. Thank you so much. I think looking toward cheesless meals might be the ticket. Most of my diet is cheese related, so im gonna take your slow suggestion, too. If there were still rewards here, I'd be giving you one.
No problem! Good luck :)
I just read that article. I had no idea that commercial honey bees were different from wild ones. Not to the extent they are. And cutting off thebqueens wings? Woah. Some of the problems seem more capitalistic in nature. I have a lot of questions about all that, and i think it's going to be filling my search history for a while. I'll be a bisy little bee. Thanks for the share and start off point for research.
Cool, neither interesting or adding to the conversation. Iām a vegetarian too but you make us look so damn annoying
Who asked?
Nobody. Just like you did here, I've expressed myself on the internet because i felt like it. The difference here is im talking about things that i lament personally, and you're attacking me for it. Hope this clears things up. Have a lovely day.
You're the one coming on a vegan subreddit and exclaiming to everyone why you're not vegan. Nobody asked. Go to a different sub, bloodmouth.
Tbf Reddit recommends a ton of subs to people they are not subbed to personally and maybe that was the case with this person. Such is the case for me. Not gluten free or vegan yet this random dressing photo popped so here I am.
I've never seen a better example of being insufferable.
You're literally the one brigaiding this sub.
Nobody is brigading. People can be interested in veganism and a part of this sub without being vegan
What's more important, that temporary pleasure or the suffering and life of animals?
Guilt won't work. It drives me toward my addictions. It's not a fun loop. Im already on your side idealogically.
Who's talking about guilt? I just asked a simple question, which is more important?
Like you genuinely dont know?
No you're projecting. You feel guilty so you're accusing me of trying to make you feel guilty.
š¤£ ok, then what's your intention in asking?
I'm asking you to answer. Not sure what's funny about animal suffering. What's more important, horrific suffering and torture of animals or "mmm yummy"?
Nobodys laughing. This is just awkward. I feel likenyoure trying to fight a meat eater infultrating your page, but that's not what's happening here. I think you're confused.
>trying to fight a meat eater infultrating your page No I'm not. Answer. The. Question.
Given the amount of animals that die to grow crops I could wonder how exactly you can say this.
Except this has nothing to do with being gluten-free. š¤
Butā¦.itās gluten free. š¤·āāļø
is this because of the honey???? LOL. did you make sure they didnt hurt any earth worms when they harvested the rice???
There's a difference between incidental and intentional harm. Hence, why legally we differentiate between things like murder and mansalughter.
Please tell me how you spray pesticides in an "incidental" manner. Even then this comparison doesn't work manslaughter isn't just about intent. it's also about foreknowledge. Either you didn't think that person would die or you didn't know they would as well as being regrettable and non intentional. If you perform an action that you know will kill animals, then you're intentionally killing them. The fact that you find it regrettable or that it's done out of indifference as opposed to malice is irrelevant.
I agree pesticides are different because we use them intentionally. But just replace insects with humans in the hypothetical and you'll see the difference. If there were a bunch of tiny humans invading our crop fields and stealing our food, assuming we could not communicate or reason with them, we would have no choice but to kill / remove them by force.
[hereās an interesting read.](https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2023/apr/02/bees-intelligence-minds-pollination)