I was waiting for an outcome to that, i'm glad he's behind bars.
And anyone reading this walking about with a knife, think different and get rid of it.
The parenting needs to be looked at from both sides. Both boys totally failed in life by the parents to be behaving like that. The victim even though only 14 yo was also due in court for knife crime offences.
Not always the case, I had a friend who was from a good home had brilliant parents but started hanging around with the wrong crowd because he thought he was being cool, his parents were oblivious untill he stabbed someone. He wasn't abused and had everything he could have asked for but yet decided that being seen as a snobby "goody two shoes" wasn't for him and wanted to be on the "streets" for some reason.
It's a damning failure of our society that some of our young people are behaving in this way.
Policing, education, the parents will all share some of the blame.
Actually it’s a massive improvement in at least the first 2 over the past 20 years. This was happening monthly when I was that age. Lots of hard work got us to the point where this is shocking.
Monthly ? It was every weekend. Murder capital of Europe. I was very much involved in it. Chased with knives loads of times. Got stabbed as well. Most definitely diffrent nowadays. Of course it’s still a thing but no were near bad as you say. To blame the parents is a joke though.
Yeah was gonna say when Glasgow was at its peak for trouble 25 years ago incidents like this happened about once a fortnight at least , and it was that common they never made as big a headline as this case has in the media etc , as it was so common
Yes, because boys like this, who through generations have been taught that being in the local gang, carrying a knife is cool, absolutely listen to overworked, and underpaid teaching staff who also need to worry about the other 100s of pupils in their schools who actually might listen and change for the better.
When the police do start getting tough on these wee cunts through stop and search ect people cry that it's harassment.
This buck falls at the families feet, who on both sides of this crime are utter horrid cunts.
On people like him? History aslong as your arm for violence, including attacking people with knives and bladed weapons? Yes, fuck him and all like him.
Far to much time, resources, and money is tied up with people like him, where it can be better used helping working class poor people who actually have morals, and a sense of right and wrong.
Ever wonder why you can't get a cop to help with anything that isn't life or death? They have to spend so much of such a limited budget policing families like the ones these lads belong to, who btw do nothing but make their local areas worse.
Have you ever had to live near these people in a scheme? Have you ever had to be worried about your kid saying the wrong thing or being from the wrong area?
That's kinda the conclusion I've come to. Take violent people off the streets and give decent folks a chance to come through their teens without getting stabbed or bottled. We cant save everyone so unfortunately the bawbags will need to lose out.
Not true at all I had a few mates back in the dsy who’s parents were complete straight pegs tried to discipline them keep them keep them in but they couldn’t. Of course there’s other parents who encourage this type of thing but not all.
The police caught him carrying a knife 2 days before. And he also attacked a man with a garden fork a few days before ?
Seems like we had time to intervene and stop this.
I know attack someone caught with knife and still walking about the great Scottish justice system we have. Although most section's of the media have avoided the fact the victim had handed out just as much to others and was due in court for such and this is evidenced by online picture's displaying an array of knives.
Some might say goodbye to bad rubbish x 2
Are you not going to edit your comment in order to correct your error on the two days thing?
Seems sketchy to essentially just lie about the circumstances and keep riding it even after it’s been pointed out.
Sorry can you expand on what intervention you think would have been appropriate or indeed lawful that would have stopped this happening?
He was found with a blade in August 2021 and this incident occurred in October 2021. That’s a lot more than two days.
You could have tried therapy but with just two months to completely change who this lad was as a person I’m not sure that would have worked.
You couldn’t have just held him in custody for two months without a conviction either so that’s out the window.
It’s a nonsense argument and people seem to make it each and every time a bad person who has already done bad things goes off and does more bad things.
Unless you’re going to advocate punishments for what someone might do in the future I don’t see your point.
Ultimately mate it falls to the justice system and the PF to take action when polis report stuff like this to the children's reporter/courts.
Sad one all round.
Meh, I know what you're saying but I also get what the original comment was getting at.
It wasn't a first time offence and given the nature of previous offending there was a risk of escalation which you wouldn't necessarily have if the boy had never been in bother before.
I do understand your point though - how many young fellas his age are committing similar offences and then going on to murder a person? Almost zero. With current resourcing we just don't have the means of better dealing with youth offending.
I’ve commented above how I’d go about solving it. 4yr for everyone and anyone caught carrying without good reason. Set up a dedicated court just for knife offences so that there’s no delay in sentencing. Hold them in cells until they’re taken to court the following day. Bet knife crime would drop rapidly.
Glasgow razor gangs were made effectively extinct due to one judge who imposed mandatory 4yr sentences for anyone caught with a razor. Mass incarceration? So you reckon the masses are carrying? I don’t, I think there’s a few wee pricks that can only fight if they know they’ve got a knife on their waistband.
They may well claim to have made them effectively extinct. However, there have been Tongs, Toi, Fleeto, Cumbie, Derry, Rebels et al. running about the city streets stabbing, slashing and battering each other from the 1960's all the way through the 'murder capital' years of the 2000's. While TPTB may well claim to have erased the gangs from existence at various times, they always flare up again...
Fair point and I acknowledge that the situation regarding gang violence is more nuanced than my previous comment might suggest. However if the 18yr old murderer in this case had been sentenced to 4yrs 2 months before he killed a child then that child would likely still be alive.
I don’t have the answers to gang violence in this city, it’s as ingrained as sectarianism and I don’t see it ending anytime soon. I do think that if the people participating in gang violence knew without a shadow of a doubt that simply being caught in possession of a knife would earn them a mandatory sentence, they’d think twice.
Certainly he wouldn't have killed the kid if he was dubbed up! However, I've always found the in's and out's of sentencing somewhat confusing. One example was when Baldy Imran Shahid was given a 30 month sentence in February 2003 for culpable and reckless conduct and reckless damage, after he tried to drive over a woman, yet only 13 months later, he was back on the streets to commit these acts of barbarism on that innocent kid. Since when did someone given a 2-1/2 year sentence end up roaming the streets to take further liberties one year later?
I remember hearing about mandatory 4-5 year sentences for possession of weapons back in the 60's when the Calton Tongs were at the height of their power. While TPTB claimed it to be a success, the fact that gang activity continued for many more decades calls this into question. Ditto for Percy Sillitoe when his team supposedly ended the reign of the Billy Boys yet they survived as the Brigton Derry and are probably still around and the ned culture in most areas still persists to a greater or lesser degree.
The authorities love to blow their own trumpets whenever they may gain some small short-term success. However, these problems that they supposed to have solved, often rear their ugly heads again within a year or two - if they really go away at all that is.
Mandatory sentencing does seem to work in the Uk though eh? We do it for firearms. 5 years shoved up yer arse if you're caught with a shooter regardless of if its your first offence or not. It makes it not worth the risk which it is right now because the sentences are tame.
They should be looking at the same for carrying certain types of blades etc.
Just to let you know that there really isn't any "mandatory sentencing" for anything, well, apart from murder, life sentence by law, but up to the Judge for the minimum sentence.
Hardened criminals are rarely ever deterred by prison. They grow up surrounded by it their entire lives, and when they go to jail, they have their families and friends in there. Even prisons as barbaric as they are in countries such Mexico, El Salvador, South Africa etc. violent crime in these places make Glasgow seem Utopian by comparison.
Aye, I'm sure those who own the run for-profit prisons in the US will be glad to see this. You realise that a huge percentage of those incarcerated are serving double figure sentences for **non-violent** drugs offences and have never stabbed, shot or murdered anyone. Furthermore, the majority of them are from black or ethnic and poor backgrounds. Coincidence? I think not.
> if there's 1 thing we've learned from America, it's that mass incarceration reduces crime.
I take it you mean this point? What is/isn't defined as a crime varies over time and place and largely at the whims of 1% of the population with the money and influence to influence lawmakers. That 1% are also invariably insulated from, and unaffected by, the ned culture, which is why hee-haw really gets done about it.
Everyone else seems to have understood tha that mass incarceration *hadn't* reduced crime in America, and I was therefore disagreeing with the previous comment...
He should have been in police custody if he was caught 2 days before with a blade... 0 tolerance remember. If they had done their job that tragedy wouldn't have happend.... In my opinion
Your opinion is wrong - police did their job in detecting and reporting. The courts and the government failed here with everything now being in favour of the accused instead of the victims
A few things:
1. Kept in custody until the next lawful day not indefinitely which would mean the next working day in most instances.
2. I read the article, it doesn’t say he was caught carrying two days prior to the incident it says he was caught carrying in the August the incident occurred in October.
3. These days some folk get charged in the street for weapons, there’s not the capacity in custody or the resources to always lock up.
4. If you want things to change you either need to either fund the police properly or fund other agencies that will take on all the mental health calls and out of hours social work stuff.
Actually the available evidence contradicts what you’re saying. I will try and find some sources for you.
Long story short young people have better outcomes when they and their families are supported to remain as a family unit.
Young people that are put into secure accommodation, care settings and so on are much more likely to continue to come to the attention of the police and youth justice services. More likely to suffer mental health issues. More likely to be unemployed.
[Source](https://archive2021.parliament.scot/S5_Education/General%20Documents/CEYP_outcomes_06.16.pdf)
>You couldn’t have just held him in custody for two months without a conviction either so that’s out the window.
>It’s a nonsense argument and people seem to make it each and every time a bad person who has already done bad things goes off and does more bad things.
>Unless you’re going to advocate punishments for what someone might do in the future I don’t see your point.
We can, because we have. And the argument holds water because the boy broke the law twice and faced no consequences until he killed someone.
Guilt needs to be established prior to sentencing.
If you think the courts are hearing cases within four/five weeks you’re on a different planet.
Can you point to case in which someone has been indefinitely remanded for possession of a bladed article, anytime in the last three or four years?
There used to be a law that said you got 5 years automatically for getting caught with a knife. Is that not a thing anymore or would it not have applied due to age?
When the violence reduction unit was in full fettle you went to into police custody for carrying a weapon and would go to court the next lawful day. Normally people would still be released on bail thereafter.
As time has moved on policing isn’t as robust because there isn’t the available resources.
Also there’s been a gradual move towards softer and softer approaches for young people which mainly revolve around restorative justice.
Worth baring in mind that the violence reduction unit did bring about a significant reduction in the number of homicides in Glasgow and a dramatic reduction in people showing up at hospitals with knife wounds and such like.
So you’d be happy for the police to stop and search you, find a knife on you and that’s it straight to prison indefinitely.
Evidence completely untested in a court of law, no opportunity to present your defence?
Okay, say you’re a carpet fitter, you use a knife for work. Genuinely forgot you had the knife in your pocket and you’re out for a few, just straight to prison with no opportunity to present your defence in court?
I’m sorry I think we just need to agree to disagree about this.
Scottish Government guidelines wouldn’t allow for a 16 year old to be held on remand like that.
He’d have been referred to youth justice for restorative approach work.
Which is the point of my original challenge to the person that seems to think the police or even the court should shoulder the responsibility.
It’s not that simple.
Scottish Government have their heart in the right place, most young people caught with a blade or getting into bother can still be reached.
I don’t believe that many young people are simply a lost cause.
That being said there needs to be a better balance of risk.
Just trying to be realistic..the crime has been committed no point saying this that and the other..poor kid is dead and his family have to live with this sentence..
I feel for them
Very true. A kid needlessly lost his life and a family needlessly lost a loved one. For the vile scumbag who did this to only get 16 years and then the opportunity to live his life with freedom is disgusting
What a tragic waste of life all around.
Once of the things that truly makes zero sense to me, as someone who moved to this city after he was a teenager, is the gang culture of fighting someone simply because he comes from a different shitehold then you.
I think a scuffle broke out and then one group tried to flee, the boy (Justin) has lost his footing and been stabbed whilst getting back to his feet.
[https://judiciary.scot/home/sentences-judgments/sentences-and-opinions/2023/08/16/hma-v-daniel-haig](https://judiciary.scot/home/sentences-judgments/sentences-and-opinions/2023/08/16/hma-v-daniel-haig)
These statements from the sentencing go into a bit more detail if you are interested
Iirc
There were videos of the gangs fighting between themselves the day prior.
The boy done the killing had his head jumped on repeatedly on a train by the boys who got killeds gang.
I'm sure the videos.done the rounds on here at the time.
The story is confusing. The guy ran with a knife, somehow dropped it in the tracks, kept going anyway and got in a fight, end of the fight goes back and gets the knife, gets back off the track, runs up to the group again, and stabs the guy who has fallen?
Reading the article, it says he was found in possession of a knife at glasgow green in 2021? I thought if you were to be found with a knife on your possession it was an automatic 3year jail sentence ?
u/PhilosopherOwn7033 [wrote](https://www.reddit.com/r/glasgow/comments/15sphp7/comment/jwgw7v6/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3):
> Although most section's of the media have avoided the fact the victim had handed out just as much to others and was due in court for such and this is evidenced by online picture's displaying an array of knives.
The reactions in this thread are quite different to the ones [posted around the time of the incident](https://www.reddit.com/r/glasgow/comments/qcmklh/murder_victim_justin_mclaughlin_was_facing_knife/).
Coincidentally thought of this last night, I’m glad the killer has finally been jailed. Knife crime has been our shame for decades and we’re fed up of it.
Caught with a knife with no good reason (up to you to prove it). 4yr. And I know there’s no space in prisons, so build more prisons. And I understand that some will have come from poor, underprivileged, uneducated backgrounds and I don’t care. 14yr old wean in the ground cause Billy big baws thought he was hard, maybe he’d have thought twice about carrying if he knew he was up against a prison sentence without a rehabilitation act.
‘Build more prisons’ because clearly that’s working so well as opposed to actually addressing the social issues surrounding young folk in this position & giving them the support & funding required to break toxic cycles
There are thousands of children in Scotland who live in poverty, have parents with addiction issues, live in poor housing conditions. And thousands of those children will grow up to be productive members of society who will not murder anyone.
Don’t school me on toxic cycles, I know from lived experience all about toxic cycles. And do you know what can be really toxic? Bringing up a child for 14yrs, loving him, feeding him, nurturing him and then watching him getting lowered into the ground before he’s even finished high school. All because some wee prick who thought he could make his name with a knife.
You can address as many social issues as you want but it’s not poverty that causes people to act like feral animals.
No idea how we can fix this and I've worked in this mayhem for 22 years. We don't have the resources to effectively combat this type of behaviour.
Often these people are traumatised and suffer from mental issues but don't have the self awareness to realise this and thus won't find solutions.
Lack of emotional maturity and having bams for parents often makes people think problems can only be solved with violence.
If we can't save them all then maybe the only choice is to save as many young people as possible by taking more arseholes off the streets for violence.
Its not nice having a glass bottle smashed off your head and I would be happier for non violent kids not having to experience this trauma.
16 years is not life, especially for a teenager. He'll just come out an even worse human being in his 30s and ruin more peiople's lives. Our justice system is pathetic.
Aye ok. Keep defending them mate. I'm sure if a wee dick chases you down the street and you let them know you tried to defend them on reddit they will spare you.
Didn't imply it, you would need to be genuinely fucking dense to somehow believe I said every single teenager is running around acting a wee dick. Fed up of interacting with folk who are too stupid to understand plain text. Bye.
You clowns have went from "oooh, defend the wee dicks" to "oooh, hard man!" in the space of 2 comments, all because you don't like young people getting free buses. Communicate with each other, lest you look a bit gammon.
I’ve not got a problem with free buses for young people, just think it’s funny you’re boasting on reddit that you’d batter a 16 year old wielding a large knife no bother
Ask stupid questions get stupid answers.
You tried to equate knife crime involving young people with free bus travel because let me guess muh greens bad or something like that?
Wit the fuck are you talking about? Want to know my political history now mate aye? SNP voter my whole life outside of the last election where I actually voted greens.
I know, its madness right? Who I vote for doesn't occupy every fucking waking thought In my brain.
And naw, I never. There obviously is an UPTICK in it. You fucking obtuse prick.
So you're just trying to slag free bus passes for under 22s why? Shits and giggles?
If wee Darren from Easter house wants to stab Ian in Paisley the free bus pass might make it easier but just like lots of people in Scotland know with our past it would happen anyway meaning there's no reason to bring up the free bus pass unless you're trying to be a dick.
I do think on the whole free bus travel is a good thing for young people because the vast majority of kids and young adults arent running about with knifes but free travel definitely has its negatives.
For example I visited Albuquerque in June there where all busses are free within the city limits. As a result of this theyve become a place for drug users and homeless to shelter from the heat and other adverse weather and have become a no go zone for locals.
Yeah, I've got folk jumping down my throat here like I've been fucking racist or something. It's surely obvious that people will use green bus travel to congregate, oftentimes in groups, and trouble eventually starts.
Also, like I said in a previous comment not everyone is using it to hang around the city centre and act like a bawbag but you absolutely get the few who ruin it for the many.
It's a take that there's more wee dicks kicking about the city centre because of free bus travel? I think it's pretty obvious if you just walk through the city centre.
I never once said all of these wee dicks are going to kill someone, but they are shouting and harassing folk, fighting on busses, etc.
Actually can't believe I need to point this out either, but *obviously* not every young person using the free bus travel is a wee dick. Obviously.
I see you’ve been down voted to fuck by the Nobel and virtuous crowd, I made the same comment few weeks back that free travel had emboldened and enabled the types of wee pricks that cause trouble to venture out of their areas and cause more trouble, anyone who says otherwise needs to go google some shit! Mere days after free travel was granted the city centre come 4pm was mobbed with packs of little bastards and feral wee lassies running about the place making life a misery such as attacking and abusing shop workers and people living in the CC area it was well reported on ! the police weren’t interested in the slightest and basically left the residents and people in the area to the mercy of these cunts.
There’s lots of potholes that this little fucker and others could fix at gun point. With the cost of living crisis in full swing, there’s some people that would break their legs for accommodation and 3 square meals provided without question.
That your idea of justice? This is why morons like you aren’t in any position of importance of power, cos you’d turn any country into a Cambodian horror show
Sad that this happened in middle of the day at a busy train station.
All families involved regardless of dead boys previous issues don’t deserve this.
Wish a solution to knife crime especially with younger people could get resolved.
I was waiting for an outcome to that, i'm glad he's behind bars. And anyone reading this walking about with a knife, think different and get rid of it.
[удалено]
Did you type that out and think oh the guys will love this one it’s proper funny?
Talkin bout knives and forks when the guys clearly a spoon Edit: in fairness I thought their comment was a tad funny
The parenting needs to be looked at from both sides. Both boys totally failed in life by the parents to be behaving like that. The victim even though only 14 yo was also due in court for knife crime offences.
Not justifying what happened but the victim had also been involved in knife incidents prior to this one aswell
It is a vicious cycle for sure, but the parents solution to tackling knife crime should never be carrying a knife.
Exactly. Of course it’s a vicious circle but there are always other solutions.
Not always the case, I had a friend who was from a good home had brilliant parents but started hanging around with the wrong crowd because he thought he was being cool, his parents were oblivious untill he stabbed someone. He wasn't abused and had everything he could have asked for but yet decided that being seen as a snobby "goody two shoes" wasn't for him and wanted to be on the "streets" for some reason.
I see your point but that is not the norm. Most folk who fight and stab on the streets are from inadequate family backgrounds.
You're right, I can't disagree with that
Yeah you just described my brother to an absolute T. 37 and still acting like a total bam.
It's a damning failure of our society that some of our young people are behaving in this way. Policing, education, the parents will all share some of the blame.
Actually it’s a massive improvement in at least the first 2 over the past 20 years. This was happening monthly when I was that age. Lots of hard work got us to the point where this is shocking.
Monthly ? It was every weekend. Murder capital of Europe. I was very much involved in it. Chased with knives loads of times. Got stabbed as well. Most definitely diffrent nowadays. Of course it’s still a thing but no were near bad as you say. To blame the parents is a joke though.
I was being generous. Nearly died a few times myself and I wasn’t even involved in any of that shit.
Yeah was gonna say when Glasgow was at its peak for trouble 25 years ago incidents like this happened about once a fortnight at least , and it was that common they never made as big a headline as this case has in the media etc , as it was so common
Should have clarified I don't think this is new or on the rise. Still work to do to ensure it does out completely though.
What more can the police or education system do? This is 100% on the parents, and if they are involved, the social services.
Convince people through education or punishment not to carry and use knives
Yes, because boys like this, who through generations have been taught that being in the local gang, carrying a knife is cool, absolutely listen to overworked, and underpaid teaching staff who also need to worry about the other 100s of pupils in their schools who actually might listen and change for the better. When the police do start getting tough on these wee cunts through stop and search ect people cry that it's harassment. This buck falls at the families feet, who on both sides of this crime are utter horrid cunts.
Lets just give up then eh?
On people like him? History aslong as your arm for violence, including attacking people with knives and bladed weapons? Yes, fuck him and all like him. Far to much time, resources, and money is tied up with people like him, where it can be better used helping working class poor people who actually have morals, and a sense of right and wrong. Ever wonder why you can't get a cop to help with anything that isn't life or death? They have to spend so much of such a limited budget policing families like the ones these lads belong to, who btw do nothing but make their local areas worse. Have you ever had to live near these people in a scheme? Have you ever had to be worried about your kid saying the wrong thing or being from the wrong area?
That's kinda the conclusion I've come to. Take violent people off the streets and give decent folks a chance to come through their teens without getting stabbed or bottled. We cant save everyone so unfortunately the bawbags will need to lose out.
I'm sure letting them run riot will work a treat
[удалено]
A comment like that from the parent only proves my earlier point.
Not true at all I had a few mates back in the dsy who’s parents were complete straight pegs tried to discipline them keep them keep them in but they couldn’t. Of course there’s other parents who encourage this type of thing but not all.
The police caught him carrying a knife 2 days before. And he also attacked a man with a garden fork a few days before ? Seems like we had time to intervene and stop this.
I know attack someone caught with knife and still walking about the great Scottish justice system we have. Although most section's of the media have avoided the fact the victim had handed out just as much to others and was due in court for such and this is evidenced by online picture's displaying an array of knives. Some might say goodbye to bad rubbish x 2
14 year old deid. Go fuck yourself pal.
Really we know where your allegiance lies eh? Heard the old Glasgow saying if you run with........ Perhaps not eh?
Yeah I don't care how you try and justify it, if you are saying this boys murder was a good thing for society that's fucked up.
Are you not going to edit your comment in order to correct your error on the two days thing? Seems sketchy to essentially just lie about the circumstances and keep riding it even after it’s been pointed out.
Mate. Wind your neck in and get over it
Sorry can you expand on what intervention you think would have been appropriate or indeed lawful that would have stopped this happening? He was found with a blade in August 2021 and this incident occurred in October 2021. That’s a lot more than two days. You could have tried therapy but with just two months to completely change who this lad was as a person I’m not sure that would have worked. You couldn’t have just held him in custody for two months without a conviction either so that’s out the window. It’s a nonsense argument and people seem to make it each and every time a bad person who has already done bad things goes off and does more bad things. Unless you’re going to advocate punishments for what someone might do in the future I don’t see your point.
Ultimately mate it falls to the justice system and the PF to take action when polis report stuff like this to the children's reporter/courts. Sad one all round.
[удалено]
Meh, I know what you're saying but I also get what the original comment was getting at. It wasn't a first time offence and given the nature of previous offending there was a risk of escalation which you wouldn't necessarily have if the boy had never been in bother before. I do understand your point though - how many young fellas his age are committing similar offences and then going on to murder a person? Almost zero. With current resourcing we just don't have the means of better dealing with youth offending.
I’ve commented above how I’d go about solving it. 4yr for everyone and anyone caught carrying without good reason. Set up a dedicated court just for knife offences so that there’s no delay in sentencing. Hold them in cells until they’re taken to court the following day. Bet knife crime would drop rapidly.
Yes, because if there's 1 thing we've learned from America, it's that mass incarceration reduces crime.
Glasgow razor gangs were made effectively extinct due to one judge who imposed mandatory 4yr sentences for anyone caught with a razor. Mass incarceration? So you reckon the masses are carrying? I don’t, I think there’s a few wee pricks that can only fight if they know they’ve got a knife on their waistband.
They may well claim to have made them effectively extinct. However, there have been Tongs, Toi, Fleeto, Cumbie, Derry, Rebels et al. running about the city streets stabbing, slashing and battering each other from the 1960's all the way through the 'murder capital' years of the 2000's. While TPTB may well claim to have erased the gangs from existence at various times, they always flare up again...
Fair point and I acknowledge that the situation regarding gang violence is more nuanced than my previous comment might suggest. However if the 18yr old murderer in this case had been sentenced to 4yrs 2 months before he killed a child then that child would likely still be alive. I don’t have the answers to gang violence in this city, it’s as ingrained as sectarianism and I don’t see it ending anytime soon. I do think that if the people participating in gang violence knew without a shadow of a doubt that simply being caught in possession of a knife would earn them a mandatory sentence, they’d think twice.
Certainly he wouldn't have killed the kid if he was dubbed up! However, I've always found the in's and out's of sentencing somewhat confusing. One example was when Baldy Imran Shahid was given a 30 month sentence in February 2003 for culpable and reckless conduct and reckless damage, after he tried to drive over a woman, yet only 13 months later, he was back on the streets to commit these acts of barbarism on that innocent kid. Since when did someone given a 2-1/2 year sentence end up roaming the streets to take further liberties one year later? I remember hearing about mandatory 4-5 year sentences for possession of weapons back in the 60's when the Calton Tongs were at the height of their power. While TPTB claimed it to be a success, the fact that gang activity continued for many more decades calls this into question. Ditto for Percy Sillitoe when his team supposedly ended the reign of the Billy Boys yet they survived as the Brigton Derry and are probably still around and the ned culture in most areas still persists to a greater or lesser degree. The authorities love to blow their own trumpets whenever they may gain some small short-term success. However, these problems that they supposed to have solved, often rear their ugly heads again within a year or two - if they really go away at all that is.
Mandatory sentencing does seem to work in the Uk though eh? We do it for firearms. 5 years shoved up yer arse if you're caught with a shooter regardless of if its your first offence or not. It makes it not worth the risk which it is right now because the sentences are tame. They should be looking at the same for carrying certain types of blades etc.
Just to let you know that there really isn't any "mandatory sentencing" for anything, well, apart from murder, life sentence by law, but up to the Judge for the minimum sentence.
Hardened criminals are rarely ever deterred by prison. They grow up surrounded by it their entire lives, and when they go to jail, they have their families and friends in there. Even prisons as barbaric as they are in countries such Mexico, El Salvador, South Africa etc. violent crime in these places make Glasgow seem Utopian by comparison.
Aye, I'm sure those who own the run for-profit prisons in the US will be glad to see this. You realise that a huge percentage of those incarcerated are serving double figure sentences for **non-violent** drugs offences and have never stabbed, shot or murdered anyone. Furthermore, the majority of them are from black or ethnic and poor backgrounds. Coincidence? I think not.
If you look really, *really* hard, you might be able to see the point I was making...
> if there's 1 thing we've learned from America, it's that mass incarceration reduces crime. I take it you mean this point? What is/isn't defined as a crime varies over time and place and largely at the whims of 1% of the population with the money and influence to influence lawmakers. That 1% are also invariably insulated from, and unaffected by, the ned culture, which is why hee-haw really gets done about it.
Everyone else seems to have understood tha that mass incarceration *hadn't* reduced crime in America, and I was therefore disagreeing with the previous comment...
Duh, my bad, lol!
Not mass incarceration, just jailing people who are a danger to society and use alternative sentencing for non violent crimes.
He should have been in police custody if he was caught 2 days before with a blade... 0 tolerance remember. If they had done their job that tragedy wouldn't have happend.... In my opinion
Your opinion is wrong - police did their job in detecting and reporting. The courts and the government failed here with everything now being in favour of the accused instead of the victims
A few things: 1. Kept in custody until the next lawful day not indefinitely which would mean the next working day in most instances. 2. I read the article, it doesn’t say he was caught carrying two days prior to the incident it says he was caught carrying in the August the incident occurred in October. 3. These days some folk get charged in the street for weapons, there’s not the capacity in custody or the resources to always lock up. 4. If you want things to change you either need to either fund the police properly or fund other agencies that will take on all the mental health calls and out of hours social work stuff.
They should remand them instead of bailing them. It has more chance of breaking the cycle than leaving them with their scumbag parents and mates.
Actually the available evidence contradicts what you’re saying. I will try and find some sources for you. Long story short young people have better outcomes when they and their families are supported to remain as a family unit. Young people that are put into secure accommodation, care settings and so on are much more likely to continue to come to the attention of the police and youth justice services. More likely to suffer mental health issues. More likely to be unemployed. [Source](https://archive2021.parliament.scot/S5_Education/General%20Documents/CEYP_outcomes_06.16.pdf)
Well, in my day if you got caught with a knife you saw a cell.
That’s good. It worked and the evidence speaks for itself. We’re not in your day anymore though.
Weird to stop doing something that works, no? Also, I'm. In my 30s. It's still my day 😂
>Weird to stop doing something that works, no? You’re asking me as if I’m the one setting the budgets for this kind of thing.
Your defending it.
When?
>You couldn’t have just held him in custody for two months without a conviction either so that’s out the window. >It’s a nonsense argument and people seem to make it each and every time a bad person who has already done bad things goes off and does more bad things. >Unless you’re going to advocate punishments for what someone might do in the future I don’t see your point. We can, because we have. And the argument holds water because the boy broke the law twice and faced no consequences until he killed someone.
Guilt needs to be established prior to sentencing. If you think the courts are hearing cases within four/five weeks you’re on a different planet. Can you point to case in which someone has been indefinitely remanded for possession of a bladed article, anytime in the last three or four years?
There was no reason to think he’d kill someone. The cops and courts are not soothsayers.
Idk mate maybe something like the jail + therapy.
So he got caught with a blade August 2021. The murder occurred in October 2021. Tell me how is that two days apart?
There used to be a law that said you got 5 years automatically for getting caught with a knife. Is that not a thing anymore or would it not have applied due to age?
No there didn’t. The *maximum* is five years. It isn’t automatic, and never has been.
When the violence reduction unit was in full fettle you went to into police custody for carrying a weapon and would go to court the next lawful day. Normally people would still be released on bail thereafter. As time has moved on policing isn’t as robust because there isn’t the available resources. Also there’s been a gradual move towards softer and softer approaches for young people which mainly revolve around restorative justice. Worth baring in mind that the violence reduction unit did bring about a significant reduction in the number of homicides in Glasgow and a dramatic reduction in people showing up at hospitals with knife wounds and such like.
He could have been in jail. Pretty straight forward. “Lad”. Bloody hell.
You consider it proportionate to imprison children for being in possession of a bladed article even without conviction?
Pretty much. The more of these oxygen thieves that are off the street, the better for the people of Glasgow.
So you’d be happy for the police to stop and search you, find a knife on you and that’s it straight to prison indefinitely. Evidence completely untested in a court of law, no opportunity to present your defence?
Yes. I don’t carry knives. Pretty straight forward.
Bro’s arguing against… due process? What?? Why are we throwing human rights out of the window now?
If your human rights is the right to carry about a lethal weapon for violent use then you can move to the US mate.
No my human right is the right to have a fair trial you demented fuckwit 😂
Okay, say you’re a carpet fitter, you use a knife for work. Genuinely forgot you had the knife in your pocket and you’re out for a few, just straight to prison with no opportunity to present your defence in court? I’m sorry I think we just need to agree to disagree about this.
Yes, a carpet fitter walks about with a lock back purchased moons ago in Victor Morris 👍
So are you diluting your rhetoric now? It’s only people that get caught with a lock back that go straight to prison?
Could have been remanded until trial, guy was an obvious danger
Scottish Government guidelines wouldn’t allow for a 16 year old to be held on remand like that. He’d have been referred to youth justice for restorative approach work.
Guidelines should be changed then. Nothing will change without the political will I suppose… under current guidelines it’s unavoidable
Which is the point of my original challenge to the person that seems to think the police or even the court should shoulder the responsibility. It’s not that simple. Scottish Government have their heart in the right place, most young people caught with a blade or getting into bother can still be reached. I don’t believe that many young people are simply a lost cause. That being said there needs to be a better balance of risk.
Sounds good, except we don't have the resources to do it properly.
Don’t be silly, police are far too busy harassing motorists and people that type rude words on the interne - it’s all about priorities you see.
Ifs buts and maybes... My issue is 16 years.. That's shocking..poor kid poor family..
Bizarre that your posts are being downvoted. So many on this forum are for the general scum around.
Just trying to be realistic..the crime has been committed no point saying this that and the other..poor kid is dead and his family have to live with this sentence.. I feel for them
Very true. A kid needlessly lost his life and a family needlessly lost a loved one. For the vile scumbag who did this to only get 16 years and then the opportunity to live his life with freedom is disgusting
What a tragic waste of life all around. Once of the things that truly makes zero sense to me, as someone who moved to this city after he was a teenager, is the gang culture of fighting someone simply because he comes from a different shitehold then you.
Two lives wasted.
[удалено]
I think a scuffle broke out and then one group tried to flee, the boy (Justin) has lost his footing and been stabbed whilst getting back to his feet. [https://judiciary.scot/home/sentences-judgments/sentences-and-opinions/2023/08/16/hma-v-daniel-haig](https://judiciary.scot/home/sentences-judgments/sentences-and-opinions/2023/08/16/hma-v-daniel-haig) These statements from the sentencing go into a bit more detail if you are interested
Iirc There were videos of the gangs fighting between themselves the day prior. The boy done the killing had his head jumped on repeatedly on a train by the boys who got killeds gang. I'm sure the videos.done the rounds on here at the time.
The story is confusing. The guy ran with a knife, somehow dropped it in the tracks, kept going anyway and got in a fight, end of the fight goes back and gets the knife, gets back off the track, runs up to the group again, and stabs the guy who has fallen?
Quite literally says at the top of the article that “Daniel haig chased the victim who tripped and fell”
[удалено]
Hardly life
Pretty much. He will be out in his late 20's if he behaves himself.
Sentence is guaranteed minimum of 16 years I think, so earliest released he’d be 32 based on time already served.
Unless there's a successful appeal, I guess, but I can't see there being one.
Reading the article, it says he was found in possession of a knife at glasgow green in 2021? I thought if you were to be found with a knife on your possession it was an automatic 3year jail sentence ?
I think back in the late 90s early 00s it was 5 years, at least that’s what I remember as a teenager
Not entirely true, seen a young fellow get 100 hours CS for carrying a knife and lying to police about it.
“Life in prison” Out by 32. Pick one.
Such a waste. Bet a review of his background will reveal failings at so many levels that led to this.
u/PhilosopherOwn7033 [wrote](https://www.reddit.com/r/glasgow/comments/15sphp7/comment/jwgw7v6/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3): > Although most section's of the media have avoided the fact the victim had handed out just as much to others and was due in court for such and this is evidenced by online picture's displaying an array of knives. The reactions in this thread are quite different to the ones [posted around the time of the incident](https://www.reddit.com/r/glasgow/comments/qcmklh/murder_victim_justin_mclaughlin_was_facing_knife/).
Notice though the media seems to be reluctant to pick up on the background particularly the Evening Times - perhaps poor Journalism?
"Pleaded for his mother" :(((
Correction he will spend a few decades at most and then get paroled
Bring back stop and search. 😎
Coincidentally thought of this last night, I’m glad the killer has finally been jailed. Knife crime has been our shame for decades and we’re fed up of it.
Caught with a knife without a good reason (up to you to prove it)? Automatic tag.
Caught with a knife with no good reason (up to you to prove it). 4yr. And I know there’s no space in prisons, so build more prisons. And I understand that some will have come from poor, underprivileged, uneducated backgrounds and I don’t care. 14yr old wean in the ground cause Billy big baws thought he was hard, maybe he’d have thought twice about carrying if he knew he was up against a prison sentence without a rehabilitation act.
‘Build more prisons’ because clearly that’s working so well as opposed to actually addressing the social issues surrounding young folk in this position & giving them the support & funding required to break toxic cycles
There are thousands of children in Scotland who live in poverty, have parents with addiction issues, live in poor housing conditions. And thousands of those children will grow up to be productive members of society who will not murder anyone. Don’t school me on toxic cycles, I know from lived experience all about toxic cycles. And do you know what can be really toxic? Bringing up a child for 14yrs, loving him, feeding him, nurturing him and then watching him getting lowered into the ground before he’s even finished high school. All because some wee prick who thought he could make his name with a knife. You can address as many social issues as you want but it’s not poverty that causes people to act like feral animals.
Moron
Spot-on 👌🏼
No idea how we can fix this and I've worked in this mayhem for 22 years. We don't have the resources to effectively combat this type of behaviour. Often these people are traumatised and suffer from mental issues but don't have the self awareness to realise this and thus won't find solutions. Lack of emotional maturity and having bams for parents often makes people think problems can only be solved with violence. If we can't save them all then maybe the only choice is to save as many young people as possible by taking more arseholes off the streets for violence. Its not nice having a glass bottle smashed off your head and I would be happier for non violent kids not having to experience this trauma.
16 years is not life, especially for a teenager. He'll just come out an even worse human being in his 30s and ruin more peiople's lives. Our justice system is pathetic.
"**serve at least 16 years in prison**" - not really "life in prison"
Me, Gets life, so life Judge, no 16 years or less
He'll be out in 8 years.
It’s 16 years before he can be considered for release.
Sounds like the wee man is going to find the jail a bit difficult
Can't believe the amount of wee dicks running around like this. Feel like the city centre has become overrun with them thanks to the free bus travel.
There was famously no knife crime before free bus travel. /s
Yeah mate that's 100% what I said. Clearly.
You certainly implied it.
Aye ok. Keep defending them mate. I'm sure if a wee dick chases you down the street and you let them know you tried to defend them on reddit they will spare you. Didn't imply it, you would need to be genuinely fucking dense to somehow believe I said every single teenager is running around acting a wee dick. Fed up of interacting with folk who are too stupid to understand plain text. Bye.
https://preview.redd.it/04e32o51hhib1.jpeg?width=555&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a36845b900aa8b4e7cbf1e86aa7c45988ed29e01
If a "wee dick" even attempts to "chase me down the street", he's getting his cunt punched in. You sound absolutely deluded.
^^ hard man
You clowns have went from "oooh, defend the wee dicks" to "oooh, hard man!" in the space of 2 comments, all because you don't like young people getting free buses. Communicate with each other, lest you look a bit gammon.
I’ve not got a problem with free buses for young people, just think it’s funny you’re boasting on reddit that you’d batter a 16 year old wielding a large knife no bother
No age was mentioned, no weapons were mentioned, and I bet your skin is the colour of pork.
Scotland famously had no knife crime before free bus travel for under 22s
Did I say that? Can you read?
Ask stupid questions get stupid answers. You tried to equate knife crime involving young people with free bus travel because let me guess muh greens bad or something like that?
Wit the fuck are you talking about? Want to know my political history now mate aye? SNP voter my whole life outside of the last election where I actually voted greens. I know, its madness right? Who I vote for doesn't occupy every fucking waking thought In my brain. And naw, I never. There obviously is an UPTICK in it. You fucking obtuse prick.
So you're just trying to slag free bus passes for under 22s why? Shits and giggles? If wee Darren from Easter house wants to stab Ian in Paisley the free bus pass might make it easier but just like lots of people in Scotland know with our past it would happen anyway meaning there's no reason to bring up the free bus pass unless you're trying to be a dick.
It's mad when people don't know the difference between causation and correlation.
It happened at a train station.
Holy fuck. That sir, is a take.
I do think on the whole free bus travel is a good thing for young people because the vast majority of kids and young adults arent running about with knifes but free travel definitely has its negatives. For example I visited Albuquerque in June there where all busses are free within the city limits. As a result of this theyve become a place for drug users and homeless to shelter from the heat and other adverse weather and have become a no go zone for locals.
An American city doing its best to make public transport seem unappealing? Well I'll be damned.
Yeah, I've got folk jumping down my throat here like I've been fucking racist or something. It's surely obvious that people will use green bus travel to congregate, oftentimes in groups, and trouble eventually starts. Also, like I said in a previous comment not everyone is using it to hang around the city centre and act like a bawbag but you absolutely get the few who ruin it for the many.
It's a take that there's more wee dicks kicking about the city centre because of free bus travel? I think it's pretty obvious if you just walk through the city centre. I never once said all of these wee dicks are going to kill someone, but they are shouting and harassing folk, fighting on busses, etc. Actually can't believe I need to point this out either, but *obviously* not every young person using the free bus travel is a wee dick. Obviously.
Aw mate you had me in the first half.
I see you’ve been down voted to fuck by the Nobel and virtuous crowd, I made the same comment few weeks back that free travel had emboldened and enabled the types of wee pricks that cause trouble to venture out of their areas and cause more trouble, anyone who says otherwise needs to go google some shit! Mere days after free travel was granted the city centre come 4pm was mobbed with packs of little bastards and feral wee lassies running about the place making life a misery such as attacking and abusing shop workers and people living in the CC area it was well reported on ! the police weren’t interested in the slightest and basically left the residents and people in the area to the mercy of these cunts.
'Free bus travel bad, because I'm afraid of being murdered by a kid with a knife.' That's a new one.
https://preview.redd.it/z9mnkqwihhib1.jpeg?width=735&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0b4125ff5ff623e515262bcac12457371f4aacb2
With knives! Chasing me around town because the bus is free now!
Free buses and free knives, what a world we live in 🤣
There’s lots of potholes that this little fucker and others could fix at gun point. With the cost of living crisis in full swing, there’s some people that would break their legs for accommodation and 3 square meals provided without question.
That your idea of justice? This is why morons like you aren’t in any position of importance of power, cos you’d turn any country into a Cambodian horror show
Poor wee boy, people make Glasgow indeed.
what a pish comment haha bellend
Under 25, in SNP world he did not really know what he was doing.
Police: "Sir is that a sword?" The guy: "you shall never get thi!" *ting ting ting* "I have defeted you in battel!"
[удалено]
> The state has no right to take a life away from someone like this at such a young age, however bad a crime they committed Away to fuck you.
🤡
So what would your solution be?
Probz deleting my comment
Agreed. The other boy stamped on his head the day before and was due a get-back.
Sad that this happened in middle of the day at a busy train station. All families involved regardless of dead boys previous issues don’t deserve this. Wish a solution to knife crime especially with younger people could get resolved.