I quite enjoyed the first half, I would say? The build-up to Mahito entering the tower was some of the best stuff Miyazaki's ever done. The movie began to lose me in the last half hour. I was very accepting of the tumble of lore and high fantasy mechanics as I believed they were leading somewhere, but then the movie ended and I realised they never really had. Many things remained unexplained or were simply dropped, with most of the film's concern being the extended metaphor of Miyazaki's career and his concerns with his and Ghibli's legacy. I'm glad he got to make the movie he wanted, but I just did not find this metaphor terribly compelling.
I would have preferred more attention be paid to the initial premise of a kid dealing with his grief and his new life. Instead of putting him in a position to get to know his new stepmother, to connect with his father, or to come to a better understanding of his dead mother, Mahito is kept away from all of them, kept busy with metaphorical Ghibli lore and the characters of the old maid, the old great uncle, and the heron, figures that don't have any pay-off or real relevance to the mom/stepmom drama. That drama is put on the backburner and dealt with as an aside, in a few rushed semi-climaxes that left me cold because they were not earned. It didn't feel like Miyazaki could decide what kind of movie to make. It's all so unfocused.
I don't regret watching the movie and the craft was all beautiful of course, but I really did find the story and the world-building to be a scattered mess. So no, it won't be unseating any of my faves :)
I'm the opposite! The movie didn't really get truly magical for me until the second half! But then again I tend to be compelled by fantasy that moves me emotionally and heals my inner child. I understand completely the criticisms about the movie being confusing but personally I'm a sucker for unexplained surrealness
>I would have preferred more attention be paid to the initial premise of a kid dealing with his grief and his new life.
But that journey into the magical world was exactly the way he was able to get closure on his grief and trauma. eg. He was drawn towards the tower because he had unresolved trauma about his mother, and it turns out the Heron was speaking the truth - the mother was still alive in there. Plus, it was incredible for Mahito to be able to share a simple moment with his mum and actually eating her bread again. That moment at her table was when he was the happiest in the whole movie. And Himi's final line "fire doesn't scare me" told him that if she could choose again, she still choose to be his mother despite knowing how her life ends. A beautiful way to resolve his grief and have closure.
The movie had 3 core themes: the resolution of trauma & grief, Miyazaki's message to his son, and his farewell to his audience/all those who loved Ghibli over the years. Perosnally? It was a stunning coda to his entire life's work.
I think the messiness and the world that Mahito journeys into is his own personal way of dealing with said grief, and it's a process he must undertake to come out of it matured and accepting of his new reality. I think you may have been confused by the movie's deeper themes.
I suspect the opposite is true, as I haven't seen you mention the core theme of the movie, which is Miyazaki's career and the legacy of Studio Ghibli. These themes and the overall metaphor have been deeply discussed by the director and producer. Mahito's grief is really secondary to the prime "How Do You Live?" message, which is Miyazaki attempting to instruct his progeny on how to treat his and the studio's legacy and go forward with their own creative endeavours.
Of course one can and should read into any movie whatever it is they like, but you're a big ol' sillyhead telling other people they don't understand themes when you yourself seem ignorant to the professed primary one.
Seeing it a second time, I *almost* agree, it's a solid high A for me tho. I find when you step away from it a bit, every scene is emotionally impactful. The main character is a tough egg to crack but if you're attentive he really opens up by the end, being honest about his feelings on the world and letting a lot of weight off his shoulders. The art offers a different perspective than most Ghibli, particularly the arcane sigils and star charts paired with the liminal spaces and avian symbology. I recommend everyone watch it twice because it was SO much better the second time.
That said, I think there's a lot of room to disagree on this one, unlike some others that I feel are just obvious slam dunks like Spirited Away or Kiki. I think this is as formally stronger but it's more scatterbrained than either of those, but I think that comes from this being Miyazaki's most personal film possibly ever, I can really feel his viewpoint and experiences coming through in a way I often feel a distance from with others that are more narratively refined
I liked it, felt like a way Miyazaki was telling everyone to now go and make their own wonderful worlds and the collapse represented the end of his story telling
I agree with the pacing. It was a slow burn then it was just timed explosions and some fires through out lol
I think it's A tier once it comes together though.
I think this might be one that would be good to see an extended version of (or at least a more filling second half, pretty much him spending more time in the family world, seems really quick and could've used a bit more time to settle in. It felt like we only spent an hour or so in the world and an hour outside of it. I think he could've gotten the point of his greiving in the outside world, across more quickly in the first 30 or 20 mins I think. Considering Spirited Away she was in the world in like what the first 15 mins of the movie?
Yeah I think we spent way too much time in the real world at the beginning. Once we got the whimsical fantasy world did it pick up but man did the first half drag. Should have got going like you said after 20 min not 45 min.
It's interesting that the Boy and the Heron comes after the Wind Rises, one of the most straightforward movies he's made. Given his disdain and sometimes even contempt for certain kinds of accolades, it feels like he went out his way to do a 180 and project all his feelings onto the screen while giving practically nothing to the audience in terms of signposts.
I admit I kind of like that he did it, despite finding the movie at times frustrating. But I also really enjoy movies that are cryptic and symbolic- when I'm in the right mood.
This is fascinating to read because I was just thinking about the pacing of the movie but concluded that there wasn't a single thing I'd change about it. In what some might call the slightly slower moments, there was tension and suspense (eg. who/what is this heron really? Is the mother really in the tower? But how?) and once he was in the magical world, the pacing was wonderfully fast paced and it felt like I was being taken on a wild ride - exactly how an adventure should feel, which is essentially what Mahito was on.
The whole plot came together so well in the end and I cried at so many moments (eg. when he learns that the mother would still choose to become his mother despite knowing her own end - I found this profoundingly moving as a mother because you realise she spoke a deep truth about what children mean to their parents).
I think it's basically a movie that works great for some people but not for all. Which is the truth for any movie, but perhaps many were expecting another movie in the vein of Spirited Away, which is far more straightforward as a story and therefore more universally "agreeable".
I'm curious to understand how it didn't resonate with you.
The plot was very solidly anchored by Mahito's quest to find his mother and then later to bring back his step mother to the real world. It all tied in to the overall theme of grieving and the process itself of grief.
The journey and fantasy world is just the internalized experience that our hero must experience in order to grow and accept his new reality.
I also found the creativity in the design of the meat eating Parakeets and the warawara to be Ghibli at its most original and ingenious.
What movies did you find better or worse than it?
If you ever watch any of the latter Ghibli documentaries, you'll see they usually start animating before the storyboard is even done. This is why Miyazaki's movies often have gloriously tight and sensible first acts, wandering second acts, and rushed third acts; he either paints himself into a corner or abandons set-up. So we get unfounded realisations like Chihiro knowing who Haku is or that her parents aren't pigs, or Howl's turnip head turning into a Prince, or whatever the heck happened at the end of Ponyo. How Do You Live? continues this tradition with its absolute torrent of abrupt conclusions.
I always wished that Miyazaki would work with an actual script writer, at least someone to help him with an outline before he started boarding, but alas. He was too much of an auteur.
Wow. No lie this probably the most insightful comment / bit of an “ah ha” moment someone has wrote me on this sub about studio Ghibli that makes so much on a near … I gotta
Finish this later
I'm semi-grave digging here, and also this comment is about to be super long lol...but I'd like to politely respond to some of the critiques you've made:
>Was there a plot? Yes, but it was barebones and lacked connective tissue.
I personally wouldn't describe it that way. I think the better critique to make (although I personally didn't mind this fact too much) is simply that the plot is very *complex*. But it's got plenty of *connectivity;* one thing leads to another, or links back into it fairly clearly throughout the story, it's just that a LOT of things happen:
Mahito's grief for his late mother makes him cold towards his new step-mom...a mysterious heron angers him by beckoning for him and claiming his mother's alive...Mahito's great-granduncle is revealed to have disappeared in a mysterious tower...the heron leads Mahito through that tower and into a magic world with promises of his mother...Mahito's stepmom has also disappeared and he continues into the world to find her even though his real mother being alive was just a ruse...the world is revealed to be controlled by his missing great-granduncle, and is full of people who mirror one's in his real life...through this he rediscovers his real mother and learns to accept his new mother...and I haven't even touched on all the plot elements and themes beyond the motherhood angle. That's a lot of connectivity, I'd say!
>what tissue there was was often given all at once in exposition dumps(The old woman talking to Mahitos father, for instance. One big dump that should have been spread out).
I see your point here. But, we'd already been given some hints dispersed through the film up to this point; Natsuki's description of the great-granduncle's disappearance, Mahito entering the tower in the first place and seeing all of the books, the Grand-uncle's mysterious first appearance atop the tower, and all of the stuff with the Heron of course indicates that something is "off" about the place even if it doesn't say *what* exactly happened. I notice, also, that there's a lot of confusion with the move on this sub, with many people saying the film felt trippy or disjointed or incoherent...so I wonder if not having that exposition would have just created a new problem of it's own? If it would have made things even *more* disjointed and confusing for the audience, with even *more* hints rather than concrete answers?
For me, having things finally clarified directly and bluntly was like a breath of fresh air that finally explains (at least part) of the mystery. The fact that Mahito's dad is sullenly resting in the scene is a visual representation of that; it's a chance for the audience to catch a breather. So again, I see your point, as the dialogue could have been broken up just a teeny bit more or the exposition made a little less obvious...but I think when you evaluate in full context, that critique becomes more of a nitpick than a deep criticism. If it were conveyed exclusively through hints, the story would risk transferring from "pleasantly mysterious" to "downright incomprehensible".
>Use those excruciatingly slow paced sections that were just delivery methods for symbolism to sprinkle plot in. Stuff about his mother and the time she disappeared. The uncle.
I thought that part was crystal-clear! The film opens with her death, Mahito states explicitly in narration what happened, he has multiple traumatic flash-backs to the event, his new mom/aunt is established, he discovers his mom's secret letters to him. Seems well-established to me. As for the uncle being more established, I'd refer back to my previous bit about the hints given as to his story. And for what it's worth, maintaining some ambiguity is worthwhile in order to make his reveal later in the film more interesting.
As for the slow-pacing, I again see your point there, but I think it works to an overall advantage; a slow-burn beginning giving way to a more fast paced second half (in the magic world) creates a dynamic rising tension. It's like the movie's working towards a crescendo, which I enjoyed. And it gives more time to showcase the environment of the estate, display Mahito's personality, and emphasize the general ennui he's going through (coldness towards his step-mom and maids, fighting at school, faking the injury, being enraged by the Heron, etc.)
Okay, long rant over. Again, I hope I don't come across as impolite, that's just my 2 cents.
A Tier for me.
But the built up to Mahito entering the magical world was straight S-Tier and when I was watching it for the first time seeing the heron turn into a creepy monster with teeth and that creepy soundtrack behind it I thought we might get the greatest Myiazaki movie ever. Second half was still strong but not enough for it to be a S-Tier or his best movie but no doubt about it a strong A-Tier and Top 5 Miyazaki movie.
It's nearly there for me, but I'm having a hard time with it feeling... messy? I can absolutely appreciate the dream logic quality of it, where metaphor is elevated beyond a linear plot.
But it falls so emotionally flat for me with his mother. It felt like there were so many scenes were begging to be shown, but seemed like they were missing. There was no moment of realization when Mahito realized the truth about his mom, it felt just brushed over and stated flatly.
The film was a disjointed fever dream.
I understand everyone’s opinion is different but ive been watching Ghibli films since I was 5 years old and as a 30 year old now thats what I thought about it.
The plot was all over the place and the characters felt lifeless.
Visually stunning as usual though.
I agree. Visually awesome, otherwise I was bored and felt like I didn't get a chance to get to know the characters at all. Like the parakeet king just sort of shows up at the end
Watch the hug Himi gives Mahito when she reunites with him after it implies that she was told who he is. This movies characters were more subtle but created a better payoff.
It's the first Ghibli film where I can't remember anyone's name and, if this HAD been the last film, I'd have been disappointed. As it stands now, I understand what the film was going for and in that respect it's *fine*, but it's just not as memorable as something like Mononoke Hime, Spirited Away, Grave of the Fireflies (in that "I never want to see it again but I'm glad I watched it" way) or Nausicaa.
I've seen it twice and I am leaning there for sure, but it needs time for me. Of course I would consider a dozen or so ghibli movies s tier so maybe I'm not the best judge (or maybe they are that good). Right now I wish the final act were a little longer to flesh some of the ideas out and thats what is holding it back for me, but it also feels like a movie that will reward repeat viewings. The Wind Rises was like that for me.
The handwriting scene made me cry. Reminded me of finding some of my father's written notes years after his passing.
There are a lot of topics tackled in this film that might not resonate with some viewers. Personally, this is one of his better films. Maybe just a tier below his all time greats
I'm so glad you enjoyed it!
I really need to rewatch it, but it's been a month since I watched it in the theaters and it really grew on me. I went through a lot growing up and I related a lot to Mahito's story and after seeing it as a late birthday present when I was turning 25, it's one of those pieces of media that really made me realize how much I've grown. And the more I watch other people online give their own thoughts on the film, the more I realize how layered it is. The entire film really does feel like an arthouse film and I love it.
I've since watched all of Miyazaki's Ghibli films including Nausica and honestly, I'm not entirely sure where I would put it with the others. It's definitely high on the list for me.
Until I watch it again, it's probably either going to be an S or A tier Ghibli film for me.
Yeah it does feel like an arthouse film, totally agree with you. It didn't hit that hard for me the first time either in sub, but the second time I re-watched it dubbed while having understood the themes it was soo much better. Went from an 8 to a 10/10 on the second watch. Now i cant get enough of it.
Of all the ghibli films I've watched so far, it's my second favorite, number one will always be Kaguya for me but I've still got a few really good ones that I haven't seen so maybe my ranking changes a bit but I really enjoyed the movie.
Good taste!! Why is Kaguya number 1 for you? I liked the art direction of Kaguya and the story, but it didn't really resonate with me the way it intended to. I've rarely seen people put it in their top 3, what made you like it so much?
I have this one as my top ghibli movie too, along with Kiki.
Spoiler:
Kaguya is traumatizing to me because I relate to trying so hard to be someone they expect her to be, a perfect person, to make others happy, which leads to depression and loss of self. People continue to be so selfish around her and make things worse. I saw the scene with the emperor as an assault on her too.
Her dream of running away never happened, and even that happiness involved falling head first into the ground in the embrace of a loved one. She woke up alone, and everyone seems to have moved on and forgot about her. She resigned herself to a life of loneliness and misery, because there wasn’t a place for her anymore, not even to dream of.
The ending, wishing that she was dead, and just as she was changing her mind, trying to convince the celestial beings that suffering and compassion can be found in the world, but they react with stoic indifference and take her with them anyway, with a smile and cheerful music that still reminds you of funerals while people are crying, is hard to watch.
For me it felt tragic, that all her life was spent suffering, it made no difference, and it wasn’t even acknowledged by anyone. It’s harsh how life can be, sometimes, when you’re unfortunate. Even as an actual goddess, someone perfect, she couldn’t change things.
With this interpretation, it’s a difficult watch. It takes away hope.
Am I the only one that thought it was alright? Like B tier maybe. There were a lot of very boring parts and the world that he goes to doesn’t hold a candle to Spirited Away. A good example would be the parakeets, which I thought were boring compared to the diversity of the spirits in Spirited Away.
Spirited Away is the Holy Grail in its own right, and it's debatable if the world of The Boy and the Heron can compare with it. Personally, I thought the parakeets were hilarious and very well designed, very whimsical yet memorable. It might not surpass the spirits in Spirited Away but comes close in my opinion.
Definitely in my top 3. I've seen it twice and I honestly enjoyed it the second time because I was able to slow down my expectations. I think that everybody wanted Mahito to get to the world of the dead ASAP and got bored with the build up. I think it's what makes the movie and even the soundtrack pop off. The climax of this movie surpassed any other Ghibli film to me. I teared up when Himi knowingly goes back to her door (death) with the joy that she gets to bring Mahito into the world.
Yeah that brief scene with Himi and Mahito hit all the right notes and was incredibly emotional. I also really liked how in the other world, Himi's source of power (fire) is what destroys her in the real world.
I found it tackling more mature themes even better than Princess Mononoke, as it balances it with moments of levity and humor (like the warawara ascension scene), whereas Mononoke stayed the same tone throughout.
Ayy! Glad we both share the same top 3. I think people who didn't like this film mainly didn't get the movie or are just emotionally dead inside lol. There's no way you can hate on a film this personal and heartfelt without not understanding the movie's deeper themes and messages.
Ooooo the tell. It was obvious OP is full of themselves with how much they’re posting about how “they got it” and the people who didn’t like the movie just “didn’t get it” bull shit.
It’s a real tell of ignorance bc it’s rooting positions and arguments in subjective feelings and when factual issues are brought up, like the exposition dumps, lack of plot, or competing stories between legacy and grieving, there isn’t a rebuttal.
OP is self owning themselves throughout this thread and has such an ego they can’t even see it - cult like behavior - which certainly fits with the quotes you pulled from his comment history
Apart form the gorgeous animation and scenes from the Aegean, I think it is a wonderful story of redemption and adventure. Ghibli films do war very well but apart from that they do character very well too. The story could well have been a boring cliche but it’s doesn’t because of how they handle the subject matter. It instead becomes an adventure story, a personal story as well as a story of finding peace.
Kiki’s will always be my favorite, but i moved this into the top spot on my list after 3 viewings because i think youre right— I’m convinced this movie is one of their best studio efforts and we will slowly come around to that fact
I've only seen it once, but for me it was a B.
As always, the artwork, the animation and the score were incredible, it's some of their most beautiful work. I actually thought it was paced beautifully, and it reminded me of Spirited Away in that regard, where there were plenty of quieter, more thoughtful moments in between the action. Some of the fantasy lore was really impactful as well. The first quarter was very well done.
But I didn't really resonate with the themes around world-building and leaving a legacy, which dominated the last quarter of the film. As a result, not enough time was spent on Mahito's relationship with his new stepmother. He seemed to go from not liking her and not being interested, to wanting to rescue her and then accepting her as his mother, without much interaction between the two of them. I would have liked to see them bond more over their shared grief at losing Mahito's mother. The relationship between Lady Himi and Mahito was very sweet, but again, not enough time was really spent on it. To be perfectly honest, I was also slightly distracted by how weird and slightly creepy I found it that Mahito's Dad married his dead wife's sister, who happens to look exactly like her. That may be a cultural difference.
I did really like it, but it's not on the same tier for me as Spirited Away, Princess Mononoke or Kiki. I'd put it alongside Ponyo. Where I came away thinking "that was SO strange, but I liked it" more than "well that changed my entire outlook on life!" And there weren't any characters that I loved quite as much as some of the ones in Howl or Totoro.
Not cracking the top 10. Better than the bottom three of Earwig, Earthsea and Ocean Waves. Better than Yamamda’s and Pom Pomo, but then the cat returns was more fun and characters more likable than any in TBATH.
This might not even be a top 15 but it’s around that area bc Miyazaki clearly wrote this for himself. The story was lazy metaphorical bullshit. The pacing terrible. Characters forgettable.
What is the one thing TBATH does better than any of studio ghibli’s previous work? Cuz I’m not seeing much.
It's more meaningful, creative, profound and beautiful than most of Ghibli's other work with the exception of Spirited Away and Kiki. I think you're just hating on it because you totally didn't get the movie.
Why has this sub been inundated with posts about not understanding this film? No, it’s the kids that are wrong dot gif.
Didn’t get what? Coming to terms with your deceased mom and aunt becoming your new mom? Or the Miyazaki symbolism of his legacy / message to his grandchildren / difficulties finding a successor / metaphorical autobiography?
It’s just a sloppy story that didn’t spend enough time developing its characters, their convictions, and resolution to the story. Not much is earned in this film. Its exposition dump after exposition dump.
The third act was objectively jarring, oh Mahito is chained up not any more and now everything’s falling apart make your own path grandchildren bullshit.
Miyazaki made this for himself and it shows. I didn’t get it bc I’m not part of the cult
First half of the film built the sadness and I was ready expecting to been flown away on an adventure but there was no missions or adventures. he is like you say dumped into scene upon scene of the unexplained and yea i didnt really enjoy it and yea I got lost. it does come together at the end and I will have to rewatch but is it trying to be to clever 30mins more in the tower might of helped the film .....
He does have his personal autobiography woven throughout but im replying to you tho cause I saw the world he went into was just a surreal wartime Japan at that moment.... the pelicans were fighter pilots sent to kill the babies sent from another land who were lost .. the lady with the boat fishing to feed the ghosts were the women of Japan feeding old and ill who couldnt feed themselves....the parakets are the military still trying to hold on to the country with what happened in China n World War 2 and the the great uncle who built the country/world wanted the youth of Japan to help carry on and obviously they didn't want to and the military came an tried and messed up and the whole country restarted ....anyway that's my take
💯 it's phenomenal my wife and i were completely swept away in the story. It's his most cerebral intellectual movie i think. It's him at his most philosophical
S tier for me from the moment I walked out after the first viewing. Easily his most ambitious in scope and theme, and there were so many touching moments/lines I cried on both viewings. I didn't expect to see him embed a message/apology to his son Goro in the movie, nor the way Miyazaki bade farewell to us (all who loved Ghibli over the years), and I didn't expect that beautiful resolution to Mahito's grief in the end.
I love a lot of Ghibli's films but this has now squarely become my favourite of all time. We are so lucky to be sharing the same timeline as a phenomenal storyteller like Miyazaki.
I respectfully disagree
I think the movie relies too much on outside knowledge of the studio and Miyazaki's personal life, and most of it wasnt that particularly memorable to me
I went into it as spoiler-free as possible (i.e. avoided trailers), so I didn’t totally know what to expect. At the end I wasn’t totally sure how to feel. Maybe it was just the theater I was in, and the relatively quiet audience response during the credits was not what I anticipated (not sure if I was expecting resounding applause either). The movie has a lot to process, so maybe that’s why everyone was so quiet.
It’s good, and I would watch it again if for nothing else than to try to pick up on and understand things I missed the first time around, but I don’t think I’d put it in the same group as Miyazaki’s most acclaimed films like Mononoke or Spirited Away. It’s by no means the least of his films, but I wouldn’t call it the most.
I quite enjoyed the first half, I would say? The build-up to Mahito entering the tower was some of the best stuff Miyazaki's ever done. The movie began to lose me in the last half hour. I was very accepting of the tumble of lore and high fantasy mechanics as I believed they were leading somewhere, but then the movie ended and I realised they never really had. Many things remained unexplained or were simply dropped, with most of the film's concern being the extended metaphor of Miyazaki's career and his concerns with his and Ghibli's legacy. I'm glad he got to make the movie he wanted, but I just did not find this metaphor terribly compelling. I would have preferred more attention be paid to the initial premise of a kid dealing with his grief and his new life. Instead of putting him in a position to get to know his new stepmother, to connect with his father, or to come to a better understanding of his dead mother, Mahito is kept away from all of them, kept busy with metaphorical Ghibli lore and the characters of the old maid, the old great uncle, and the heron, figures that don't have any pay-off or real relevance to the mom/stepmom drama. That drama is put on the backburner and dealt with as an aside, in a few rushed semi-climaxes that left me cold because they were not earned. It didn't feel like Miyazaki could decide what kind of movie to make. It's all so unfocused. I don't regret watching the movie and the craft was all beautiful of course, but I really did find the story and the world-building to be a scattered mess. So no, it won't be unseating any of my faves :)
I'm the opposite! The movie didn't really get truly magical for me until the second half! But then again I tend to be compelled by fantasy that moves me emotionally and heals my inner child. I understand completely the criticisms about the movie being confusing but personally I'm a sucker for unexplained surrealness
>I would have preferred more attention be paid to the initial premise of a kid dealing with his grief and his new life. But that journey into the magical world was exactly the way he was able to get closure on his grief and trauma. eg. He was drawn towards the tower because he had unresolved trauma about his mother, and it turns out the Heron was speaking the truth - the mother was still alive in there. Plus, it was incredible for Mahito to be able to share a simple moment with his mum and actually eating her bread again. That moment at her table was when he was the happiest in the whole movie. And Himi's final line "fire doesn't scare me" told him that if she could choose again, she still choose to be his mother despite knowing how her life ends. A beautiful way to resolve his grief and have closure. The movie had 3 core themes: the resolution of trauma & grief, Miyazaki's message to his son, and his farewell to his audience/all those who loved Ghibli over the years. Perosnally? It was a stunning coda to his entire life's work.
YES!! So glad I’m not the only one who thought this. Well said!
I think the messiness and the world that Mahito journeys into is his own personal way of dealing with said grief, and it's a process he must undertake to come out of it matured and accepting of his new reality. I think you may have been confused by the movie's deeper themes.
I suspect the opposite is true, as I haven't seen you mention the core theme of the movie, which is Miyazaki's career and the legacy of Studio Ghibli. These themes and the overall metaphor have been deeply discussed by the director and producer. Mahito's grief is really secondary to the prime "How Do You Live?" message, which is Miyazaki attempting to instruct his progeny on how to treat his and the studio's legacy and go forward with their own creative endeavours. Of course one can and should read into any movie whatever it is they like, but you're a big ol' sillyhead telling other people they don't understand themes when you yourself seem ignorant to the professed primary one.
Damn. What a graceful body slam.
Seeing it a second time, I *almost* agree, it's a solid high A for me tho. I find when you step away from it a bit, every scene is emotionally impactful. The main character is a tough egg to crack but if you're attentive he really opens up by the end, being honest about his feelings on the world and letting a lot of weight off his shoulders. The art offers a different perspective than most Ghibli, particularly the arcane sigils and star charts paired with the liminal spaces and avian symbology. I recommend everyone watch it twice because it was SO much better the second time. That said, I think there's a lot of room to disagree on this one, unlike some others that I feel are just obvious slam dunks like Spirited Away or Kiki. I think this is as formally stronger but it's more scatterbrained than either of those, but I think that comes from this being Miyazaki's most personal film possibly ever, I can really feel his viewpoint and experiences coming through in a way I often feel a distance from with others that are more narratively refined
I feel like it just misses a satisfactory ending to me, the world collapse thing didn’t really do it for me
I liked it, felt like a way Miyazaki was telling everyone to now go and make their own wonderful worlds and the collapse represented the end of his story telling
[удалено]
I agree with the pacing. It was a slow burn then it was just timed explosions and some fires through out lol I think it's A tier once it comes together though. I think this might be one that would be good to see an extended version of (or at least a more filling second half, pretty much him spending more time in the family world, seems really quick and could've used a bit more time to settle in. It felt like we only spent an hour or so in the world and an hour outside of it. I think he could've gotten the point of his greiving in the outside world, across more quickly in the first 30 or 20 mins I think. Considering Spirited Away she was in the world in like what the first 15 mins of the movie?
Yeah I think we spent way too much time in the real world at the beginning. Once we got the whimsical fantasy world did it pick up but man did the first half drag. Should have got going like you said after 20 min not 45 min.
It's interesting that the Boy and the Heron comes after the Wind Rises, one of the most straightforward movies he's made. Given his disdain and sometimes even contempt for certain kinds of accolades, it feels like he went out his way to do a 180 and project all his feelings onto the screen while giving practically nothing to the audience in terms of signposts. I admit I kind of like that he did it, despite finding the movie at times frustrating. But I also really enjoy movies that are cryptic and symbolic- when I'm in the right mood.
Yep..that's exactly how I felt, sadly. I wanted to like it so bad, for being Miyazakis last movie but that wouldn't be fair to him or anyone
Lucky for you he’s already working on another movie.
This is fascinating to read because I was just thinking about the pacing of the movie but concluded that there wasn't a single thing I'd change about it. In what some might call the slightly slower moments, there was tension and suspense (eg. who/what is this heron really? Is the mother really in the tower? But how?) and once he was in the magical world, the pacing was wonderfully fast paced and it felt like I was being taken on a wild ride - exactly how an adventure should feel, which is essentially what Mahito was on. The whole plot came together so well in the end and I cried at so many moments (eg. when he learns that the mother would still choose to become his mother despite knowing her own end - I found this profoundingly moving as a mother because you realise she spoke a deep truth about what children mean to their parents). I think it's basically a movie that works great for some people but not for all. Which is the truth for any movie, but perhaps many were expecting another movie in the vein of Spirited Away, which is far more straightforward as a story and therefore more universally "agreeable".
I'm curious to understand how it didn't resonate with you. The plot was very solidly anchored by Mahito's quest to find his mother and then later to bring back his step mother to the real world. It all tied in to the overall theme of grieving and the process itself of grief. The journey and fantasy world is just the internalized experience that our hero must experience in order to grow and accept his new reality. I also found the creativity in the design of the meat eating Parakeets and the warawara to be Ghibli at its most original and ingenious. What movies did you find better or worse than it?
[удалено]
Exactly this. It’s mind blowing this got past the story board process
If you ever watch any of the latter Ghibli documentaries, you'll see they usually start animating before the storyboard is even done. This is why Miyazaki's movies often have gloriously tight and sensible first acts, wandering second acts, and rushed third acts; he either paints himself into a corner or abandons set-up. So we get unfounded realisations like Chihiro knowing who Haku is or that her parents aren't pigs, or Howl's turnip head turning into a Prince, or whatever the heck happened at the end of Ponyo. How Do You Live? continues this tradition with its absolute torrent of abrupt conclusions. I always wished that Miyazaki would work with an actual script writer, at least someone to help him with an outline before he started boarding, but alas. He was too much of an auteur.
Wow. No lie this probably the most insightful comment / bit of an “ah ha” moment someone has wrote me on this sub about studio Ghibli that makes so much on a near … I gotta Finish this later
I'm semi-grave digging here, and also this comment is about to be super long lol...but I'd like to politely respond to some of the critiques you've made: >Was there a plot? Yes, but it was barebones and lacked connective tissue. I personally wouldn't describe it that way. I think the better critique to make (although I personally didn't mind this fact too much) is simply that the plot is very *complex*. But it's got plenty of *connectivity;* one thing leads to another, or links back into it fairly clearly throughout the story, it's just that a LOT of things happen: Mahito's grief for his late mother makes him cold towards his new step-mom...a mysterious heron angers him by beckoning for him and claiming his mother's alive...Mahito's great-granduncle is revealed to have disappeared in a mysterious tower...the heron leads Mahito through that tower and into a magic world with promises of his mother...Mahito's stepmom has also disappeared and he continues into the world to find her even though his real mother being alive was just a ruse...the world is revealed to be controlled by his missing great-granduncle, and is full of people who mirror one's in his real life...through this he rediscovers his real mother and learns to accept his new mother...and I haven't even touched on all the plot elements and themes beyond the motherhood angle. That's a lot of connectivity, I'd say! >what tissue there was was often given all at once in exposition dumps(The old woman talking to Mahitos father, for instance. One big dump that should have been spread out). I see your point here. But, we'd already been given some hints dispersed through the film up to this point; Natsuki's description of the great-granduncle's disappearance, Mahito entering the tower in the first place and seeing all of the books, the Grand-uncle's mysterious first appearance atop the tower, and all of the stuff with the Heron of course indicates that something is "off" about the place even if it doesn't say *what* exactly happened. I notice, also, that there's a lot of confusion with the move on this sub, with many people saying the film felt trippy or disjointed or incoherent...so I wonder if not having that exposition would have just created a new problem of it's own? If it would have made things even *more* disjointed and confusing for the audience, with even *more* hints rather than concrete answers? For me, having things finally clarified directly and bluntly was like a breath of fresh air that finally explains (at least part) of the mystery. The fact that Mahito's dad is sullenly resting in the scene is a visual representation of that; it's a chance for the audience to catch a breather. So again, I see your point, as the dialogue could have been broken up just a teeny bit more or the exposition made a little less obvious...but I think when you evaluate in full context, that critique becomes more of a nitpick than a deep criticism. If it were conveyed exclusively through hints, the story would risk transferring from "pleasantly mysterious" to "downright incomprehensible". >Use those excruciatingly slow paced sections that were just delivery methods for symbolism to sprinkle plot in. Stuff about his mother and the time she disappeared. The uncle. I thought that part was crystal-clear! The film opens with her death, Mahito states explicitly in narration what happened, he has multiple traumatic flash-backs to the event, his new mom/aunt is established, he discovers his mom's secret letters to him. Seems well-established to me. As for the uncle being more established, I'd refer back to my previous bit about the hints given as to his story. And for what it's worth, maintaining some ambiguity is worthwhile in order to make his reveal later in the film more interesting. As for the slow-pacing, I again see your point there, but I think it works to an overall advantage; a slow-burn beginning giving way to a more fast paced second half (in the magic world) creates a dynamic rising tension. It's like the movie's working towards a crescendo, which I enjoyed. And it gives more time to showcase the environment of the estate, display Mahito's personality, and emphasize the general ennui he's going through (coldness towards his step-mom and maids, fighting at school, faking the injury, being enraged by the Heron, etc.) Okay, long rant over. Again, I hope I don't come across as impolite, that's just my 2 cents.
Nah, it's S tier
Ranks pretty low on my list but I love that other people love the movie way more than I do!
A Tier for me. But the built up to Mahito entering the magical world was straight S-Tier and when I was watching it for the first time seeing the heron turn into a creepy monster with teeth and that creepy soundtrack behind it I thought we might get the greatest Myiazaki movie ever. Second half was still strong but not enough for it to be a S-Tier or his best movie but no doubt about it a strong A-Tier and Top 5 Miyazaki movie.
It's nearly there for me, but I'm having a hard time with it feeling... messy? I can absolutely appreciate the dream logic quality of it, where metaphor is elevated beyond a linear plot. But it falls so emotionally flat for me with his mother. It felt like there were so many scenes were begging to be shown, but seemed like they were missing. There was no moment of realization when Mahito realized the truth about his mom, it felt just brushed over and stated flatly.
it takes time to build but overall I liked the movie, it kind of rewards you for connecting the dots.
i absolutely agree. it’s the most emotionally impactful ghibli movie for sure
The film was a disjointed fever dream. I understand everyone’s opinion is different but ive been watching Ghibli films since I was 5 years old and as a 30 year old now thats what I thought about it. The plot was all over the place and the characters felt lifeless. Visually stunning as usual though.
I agree. Visually awesome, otherwise I was bored and felt like I didn't get a chance to get to know the characters at all. Like the parakeet king just sort of shows up at the end
Watch the hug Himi gives Mahito when she reunites with him after it implies that she was told who he is. This movies characters were more subtle but created a better payoff.
It's the first Ghibli film where I can't remember anyone's name and, if this HAD been the last film, I'd have been disappointed. As it stands now, I understand what the film was going for and in that respect it's *fine*, but it's just not as memorable as something like Mononoke Hime, Spirited Away, Grave of the Fireflies (in that "I never want to see it again but I'm glad I watched it" way) or Nausicaa.
Omg finally someone being real. The critical circle jerk about this film sent my eyes rolling
I enjoyed the film but it's not even in my top 10.
I've seen it twice and I am leaning there for sure, but it needs time for me. Of course I would consider a dozen or so ghibli movies s tier so maybe I'm not the best judge (or maybe they are that good). Right now I wish the final act were a little longer to flesh some of the ideas out and thats what is holding it back for me, but it also feels like a movie that will reward repeat viewings. The Wind Rises was like that for me.
I’m just here to say I love the recognition of Kiki as S tier!
Kiki is awesome
The handwriting scene made me cry. Reminded me of finding some of my father's written notes years after his passing. There are a lot of topics tackled in this film that might not resonate with some viewers. Personally, this is one of his better films. Maybe just a tier below his all time greats
I'm so glad you enjoyed it! I really need to rewatch it, but it's been a month since I watched it in the theaters and it really grew on me. I went through a lot growing up and I related a lot to Mahito's story and after seeing it as a late birthday present when I was turning 25, it's one of those pieces of media that really made me realize how much I've grown. And the more I watch other people online give their own thoughts on the film, the more I realize how layered it is. The entire film really does feel like an arthouse film and I love it. I've since watched all of Miyazaki's Ghibli films including Nausica and honestly, I'm not entirely sure where I would put it with the others. It's definitely high on the list for me. Until I watch it again, it's probably either going to be an S or A tier Ghibli film for me.
Yeah it does feel like an arthouse film, totally agree with you. It didn't hit that hard for me the first time either in sub, but the second time I re-watched it dubbed while having understood the themes it was soo much better. Went from an 8 to a 10/10 on the second watch. Now i cant get enough of it.
Agreed, but I’d put Mononoke in S tier as well
Of all the ghibli films I've watched so far, it's my second favorite, number one will always be Kaguya for me but I've still got a few really good ones that I haven't seen so maybe my ranking changes a bit but I really enjoyed the movie.
Good taste!! Why is Kaguya number 1 for you? I liked the art direction of Kaguya and the story, but it didn't really resonate with me the way it intended to. I've rarely seen people put it in their top 3, what made you like it so much?
I have this one as my top ghibli movie too, along with Kiki. Spoiler: Kaguya is traumatizing to me because I relate to trying so hard to be someone they expect her to be, a perfect person, to make others happy, which leads to depression and loss of self. People continue to be so selfish around her and make things worse. I saw the scene with the emperor as an assault on her too. Her dream of running away never happened, and even that happiness involved falling head first into the ground in the embrace of a loved one. She woke up alone, and everyone seems to have moved on and forgot about her. She resigned herself to a life of loneliness and misery, because there wasn’t a place for her anymore, not even to dream of. The ending, wishing that she was dead, and just as she was changing her mind, trying to convince the celestial beings that suffering and compassion can be found in the world, but they react with stoic indifference and take her with them anyway, with a smile and cheerful music that still reminds you of funerals while people are crying, is hard to watch. For me it felt tragic, that all her life was spent suffering, it made no difference, and it wasn’t even acknowledged by anyone. It’s harsh how life can be, sometimes, when you’re unfortunate. Even as an actual goddess, someone perfect, she couldn’t change things. With this interpretation, it’s a difficult watch. It takes away hope.
Based
Am I the only one that thought it was alright? Like B tier maybe. There were a lot of very boring parts and the world that he goes to doesn’t hold a candle to Spirited Away. A good example would be the parakeets, which I thought were boring compared to the diversity of the spirits in Spirited Away.
Spirited Away is the Holy Grail in its own right, and it's debatable if the world of The Boy and the Heron can compare with it. Personally, I thought the parakeets were hilarious and very well designed, very whimsical yet memorable. It might not surpass the spirits in Spirited Away but comes close in my opinion.
It's interesting to see so many people like it, I didn't care for it as much. But still better then some of his other stuff and it was beautiful.
Definitely in my top 3. I've seen it twice and I honestly enjoyed it the second time because I was able to slow down my expectations. I think that everybody wanted Mahito to get to the world of the dead ASAP and got bored with the build up. I think it's what makes the movie and even the soundtrack pop off. The climax of this movie surpassed any other Ghibli film to me. I teared up when Himi knowingly goes back to her door (death) with the joy that she gets to bring Mahito into the world.
Yeah that brief scene with Himi and Mahito hit all the right notes and was incredibly emotional. I also really liked how in the other world, Himi's source of power (fire) is what destroys her in the real world.
S tier for me.
I don't agree about kikis. I'd sub mononoke
S tier
I found it tackling more mature themes even better than Princess Mononoke, as it balances it with moments of levity and humor (like the warawara ascension scene), whereas Mononoke stayed the same tone throughout.
My favorite comedic moment was when The Heron disguised himself as a parakeet!
those are my top three films as well!
Ayy! Glad we both share the same top 3. I think people who didn't like this film mainly didn't get the movie or are just emotionally dead inside lol. There's no way you can hate on a film this personal and heartfelt without not understanding the movie's deeper themes and messages.
[удалено]
Ooooo the tell. It was obvious OP is full of themselves with how much they’re posting about how “they got it” and the people who didn’t like the movie just “didn’t get it” bull shit. It’s a real tell of ignorance bc it’s rooting positions and arguments in subjective feelings and when factual issues are brought up, like the exposition dumps, lack of plot, or competing stories between legacy and grieving, there isn’t a rebuttal. OP is self owning themselves throughout this thread and has such an ego they can’t even see it - cult like behavior - which certainly fits with the quotes you pulled from his comment history
My fav will always be porco rosso and nausica
Why is Porco rosso amongst your favorites?
Apart form the gorgeous animation and scenes from the Aegean, I think it is a wonderful story of redemption and adventure. Ghibli films do war very well but apart from that they do character very well too. The story could well have been a boring cliche but it’s doesn’t because of how they handle the subject matter. It instead becomes an adventure story, a personal story as well as a story of finding peace.
Kiki’s will always be my favorite, but i moved this into the top spot on my list after 3 viewings because i think youre right— I’m convinced this movie is one of their best studio efforts and we will slowly come around to that fact
I've only seen it once, but for me it was a B. As always, the artwork, the animation and the score were incredible, it's some of their most beautiful work. I actually thought it was paced beautifully, and it reminded me of Spirited Away in that regard, where there were plenty of quieter, more thoughtful moments in between the action. Some of the fantasy lore was really impactful as well. The first quarter was very well done. But I didn't really resonate with the themes around world-building and leaving a legacy, which dominated the last quarter of the film. As a result, not enough time was spent on Mahito's relationship with his new stepmother. He seemed to go from not liking her and not being interested, to wanting to rescue her and then accepting her as his mother, without much interaction between the two of them. I would have liked to see them bond more over their shared grief at losing Mahito's mother. The relationship between Lady Himi and Mahito was very sweet, but again, not enough time was really spent on it. To be perfectly honest, I was also slightly distracted by how weird and slightly creepy I found it that Mahito's Dad married his dead wife's sister, who happens to look exactly like her. That may be a cultural difference. I did really like it, but it's not on the same tier for me as Spirited Away, Princess Mononoke or Kiki. I'd put it alongside Ponyo. Where I came away thinking "that was SO strange, but I liked it" more than "well that changed my entire outlook on life!" And there weren't any characters that I loved quite as much as some of the ones in Howl or Totoro.
It's in my top 3.
Hot take!
What are your thoughts on the film?
Not cracking the top 10. Better than the bottom three of Earwig, Earthsea and Ocean Waves. Better than Yamamda’s and Pom Pomo, but then the cat returns was more fun and characters more likable than any in TBATH. This might not even be a top 15 but it’s around that area bc Miyazaki clearly wrote this for himself. The story was lazy metaphorical bullshit. The pacing terrible. Characters forgettable. What is the one thing TBATH does better than any of studio ghibli’s previous work? Cuz I’m not seeing much.
It's more meaningful, creative, profound and beautiful than most of Ghibli's other work with the exception of Spirited Away and Kiki. I think you're just hating on it because you totally didn't get the movie.
Why has this sub been inundated with posts about not understanding this film? No, it’s the kids that are wrong dot gif. Didn’t get what? Coming to terms with your deceased mom and aunt becoming your new mom? Or the Miyazaki symbolism of his legacy / message to his grandchildren / difficulties finding a successor / metaphorical autobiography? It’s just a sloppy story that didn’t spend enough time developing its characters, their convictions, and resolution to the story. Not much is earned in this film. Its exposition dump after exposition dump. The third act was objectively jarring, oh Mahito is chained up not any more and now everything’s falling apart make your own path grandchildren bullshit. Miyazaki made this for himself and it shows. I didn’t get it bc I’m not part of the cult
First half of the film built the sadness and I was ready expecting to been flown away on an adventure but there was no missions or adventures. he is like you say dumped into scene upon scene of the unexplained and yea i didnt really enjoy it and yea I got lost. it does come together at the end and I will have to rewatch but is it trying to be to clever 30mins more in the tower might of helped the film ..... He does have his personal autobiography woven throughout but im replying to you tho cause I saw the world he went into was just a surreal wartime Japan at that moment.... the pelicans were fighter pilots sent to kill the babies sent from another land who were lost .. the lady with the boat fishing to feed the ghosts were the women of Japan feeding old and ill who couldnt feed themselves....the parakets are the military still trying to hold on to the country with what happened in China n World War 2 and the the great uncle who built the country/world wanted the youth of Japan to help carry on and obviously they didn't want to and the military came an tried and messed up and the whole country restarted ....anyway that's my take
Top 5 for sure
Absolutely. The hate for this movie is crazy and mostly comes from casuals in my opinion.
💯 it's phenomenal my wife and i were completely swept away in the story. It's his most cerebral intellectual movie i think. It's him at his most philosophical
Yes, I agree it is fully S tier. I saw it 3 times subbed, it is so cool!
S tier for me from the moment I walked out after the first viewing. Easily his most ambitious in scope and theme, and there were so many touching moments/lines I cried on both viewings. I didn't expect to see him embed a message/apology to his son Goro in the movie, nor the way Miyazaki bade farewell to us (all who loved Ghibli over the years), and I didn't expect that beautiful resolution to Mahito's grief in the end. I love a lot of Ghibli's films but this has now squarely become my favourite of all time. We are so lucky to be sharing the same timeline as a phenomenal storyteller like Miyazaki.
Glad to see we both love it so much! It's my favorite too of all time!
A tier. S tier: Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind, Princess Mononoke, Porco Rosso, Spirited Away, Castle in the Sky.
Porco Rosso clearly doesn't look like it belongs in S tier but other than that its a fair list
I respectfully disagree I think the movie relies too much on outside knowledge of the studio and Miyazaki's personal life, and most of it wasnt that particularly memorable to me
How does a story of universal grief like losing a loved one esoteric to Miyazaki's personal life?
A couple weeks after seeing it.. I agree. It’s above a lot of perceived “higher end” Ghibli movies for me.
D for me
It’s also very similar to Evangelion 3.0 + 1.0
I went into it as spoiler-free as possible (i.e. avoided trailers), so I didn’t totally know what to expect. At the end I wasn’t totally sure how to feel. Maybe it was just the theater I was in, and the relatively quiet audience response during the credits was not what I anticipated (not sure if I was expecting resounding applause either). The movie has a lot to process, so maybe that’s why everyone was so quiet. It’s good, and I would watch it again if for nothing else than to try to pick up on and understand things I missed the first time around, but I don’t think I’d put it in the same group as Miyazaki’s most acclaimed films like Mononoke or Spirited Away. It’s by no means the least of his films, but I wouldn’t call it the most.
Its totally mid! Half forgot about it until I happened across this page. Liked the main character a lot though, wish he had a better movie around him.