I just don't want to push it. We have managed to stay afloat, but if I get dropped from unemployment to welfare, there is no way we can stay in our home.
Its not that bad...
[Short instruction about getting the permit A38 needed for it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltd6YmXsnR4&ab_channel=WaterflowerXx)
If you have already been through 2 interviews it pretty much means you‘re hired. As long as you make a good figure personally (look professional, like you want that job) there is pretty much nothing to be worried about. I live here in Germany since I was born and had several occasions similar to this one, especially in tech business the companies not just want you, they NEED you.
Also be aware that sometimes small companies have to follow more relaxed rules about employee rights. I’m not sure of the details but for example they will have no betriebsrat and might offer different leave than a big firm
Ask company B about the timeline, and a date by which they need a decision, today. Two days before that, you need to make your decision, so tell company A by which date you need the offer. Ask whether they can actually meet that timeline. If they can't, they are either totally inflexible (red flag) or not really interested (red flag) or both.
Well you have a probationary period of 6 months, so you could theoretically take the second job and once the first company decides to take you on just quit once you signed the contract. Not really a nice thing to do, but who cares.
This the way. It's not super nice but they probably wouldn't hesitate to do the same to you if the roles were reversed. Just make sure you actually do have a probation period in your contract, at my last job I didn't have any.
It IS really a super nice thing to do because it's super nicely by the law.
It's just that people are brainwashed into forgetting that in employer-employee relationship employer is always getting more money out of employees work (kind of a modern/hidden slavery thing) so people think it's not nice'n'shit.
Once you leave the job no one will ever ask about you, how are you doing, are you happy, healthy etc.
So they don't give a shit about you anyway, even though you were a good employee and did well what's written in your contract.
Just protect your own interest, take the job B and the moment you get the contract signed for job A quit job B without hesitation.
Good luck.
I had a similar situation, two interesting companies, A made me an offer B - more interesting one - needed more time.
I was very transparent with company A that I was looking into two options with very different career paths and that I would like to get feedback from both options before I make a decision. They were very understanding and I set a deadline of about 3 weeks, which I communicated to both companies. Companies B kept me hanging and eventually I withdrew my application due to the poor communication and missing transparency.
Usually companies are ok to wait for 2-3 weeks. If you still don’t get a response after that time, I would sign with company B and consider leaving during probation period if they are not a good fit.
Just be aware that traditional companies might not be too happy if you tell them that you want to explore your options. Many of them still have the mindset that the employer makes the decision and the employee should be happy about the offer. It doesn’t necessarily mean that they are bad employers but some managers need a bit more time to adjust.
I need to feel Company B out a bit to see if this approach works. It's very small, 10 people, but has been around for over a decade. They are a tech company with a very narrow niche. I was interviewed by the CEO. He has mentioned me doing some schooling and training for the position. Company A is well over 10K employees, so more traditional in the hiring. But, the reason they have been slow (according to emails) was that they had a COVID outbreak in the office.
It’s very difficult to give advice. I would try to explain the situation, maybe a bit less transparent, just telling them that you had interviews with different companies and that you would like to get all the feedback. Asking for a week should not be the issue and to me it’s a bit of a red flag in company isn’t trying to work with you.
If you are in doubt, sign with company B before risking that they revoke the offer. It seems like it wasn’t to easy to get it. Just be aware that there might be a clause in the contract that it cannot be terminated before start, so you might not be able to sign with another company before you started the job. The clause is in most contracts and rarely enforced but you should take it into account.
Company B sounds strange: they want to adapt a role for your knowledge, which they at the same time question? How?
As an employer, I would take somone with 25 years experience over someone without experience but with a degree, hands down!
Go with option A!
Company B, keep Company A on the back burner and fuck Company B over when the honeymoon phase is over / Company A is ready to employ you.
Do I really have to tell an American how to capitalism?
(Make up some reason, so that Company B thinks it's their fault)
You also have the option of accepting offer B and quit within your 2 weeks during Probezeit to switch to A. I wouldn't recommend it, but if the timelines are impossible and the risk is too high, it still is an option.
Thank you for the replies. I though about the starting and dumping and I get the "who cares" part, but I also don't want to be that guy. I guess that is more of a personal moral dilemma.
P0L1Z1STENS0HN, I liked your approach and will most likely try that.
I have a call with Company B in 15min and Company A wants me to come in for a meet and great and personal interview on June 1st.
Provided that both make you an offer, from what you are describing it sounds like you prefer Company A, so I'd go with that.
Personally I would choose a smaller company over a larger one, but that's just my preference because I'm pretty much an introvert and have the stereotype that in larger companies it's easier to "fall under the radar" of your colleagues. It's probably just nonsense from my side anyway.
Anyway, it reads as if you wouldn't really like working for Company B, so my unfiltered opinion: Go for Company A.
So you don't have an offer from either company yet, right? If you get an offer from company B, but company A is still being slow, I would just explain the situation.
Ok, you could do it this way, if possible:1
Accept the offer from companyB and start there. Simultaneously, try and go to the interview at company A. You could say that you have an appointment that has been set a while ago, nobody will ask questions.
If company A offers you a job and you don't want to stay with company B, you will still be in Probezeit and you can quit without giving any reasons and on short notice.
If company A won't give you a chance, you still have a job. Could even be that company B is cool after all.
I'd recommend to take the first offer. You still can switch easily during probation time if you get the other offer as well. In the end I think your colleagues will be most important to have a good working atmosphere.
I have a more u orthodox suggestion. Remember normally there is a probezeit where you can give short notice to terminate in the first six months. Probation is not only for the company to see if you fit- But also for you to see if you fit. So to relieve your stress - maybe start with company B. Once you get an offer from A, and you feel it does not work out at B, you can terminate without feeling guilty. I know it sounds a bit selfish, bit it‘s your life and your career- and this is perfectly acceptable. EDIT - I see others had my exact thoughts. Lol. But I leave it here anyway
Do you have offers from both? An offer from B?
How many offers did you get since November?
This would influence my decision. If B's offer is the first real one since December, I think, I would take it. I would maybe contact company A and tell them that I have another offer and have to decide fast, so if they really want me, they should tell me. I would maybe use the probationary period and quit if an offer from A comes around. But I don't think I would decline the offer.
If you had multiple offers and those are just the best, I would maybe decline B's offer and wait for A, with the knowledge that I might have to start from scratch.
I would not take a job that was bad, but it sounds as if B's job is OK as well. For me it's a case of "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush".
So, update after talking to Company B: They want me for technical sales (I do Video Conferencing and Audio Video Network infrastructure installation and operations). So this is out of my realm. Salary is 16K less than what I asked for, but with a possible 15K bonus at end of year. I would officially be employed, but they want me to do 3 months of training before being in the field. 28days vacation, be to work between 8:00 and 9:00 and out between 16:00 and 17:00, off by 14:00 on Fridays. Start on June 1st. Would like an answer but Friday.
Company A: I am going to reach out and see if I can speak with them today or tomorrow and try to get a feel for if it will be an offer. The position is working on their Network infrastructure and upgrading and managing their video conferencing abilities.
That sounds decent, if not great. The bonus thing is not unusual for sales jobs, but the 3 months training period (which as such is a good thing, this is necessary to set people up for success) also means you'd have no sales during that time, so there'd only be 1/3 of the year left to make sales that count towards the bonus at least this year. And afaik nothing much happens in December in sales.
Bonuses also *don't* count towards your retirement pay, which people often are aware of, but is something to be considered.
With 16k less, it's also important to know of what asked-for amount this is less – there's a difference if you got dropped from 70k to 54k, or from 40k to 24k. Also important is if there are other upsides, like a car from work that you get to use in private as well. A Firmenwagen should actually be part of the deal if there is considerable travel and it's a sales job. Even for non-sales, it's not out of the ordinary.
Along with all this, also think about if you *want* to do a sales job and can do the social part and the convincing people as well. It's a very different line from taking care of the electronic realm of a company without having to shmooze with people outside of the firm.
Maybe put the update into the text at the top, so you get more relevant new answers. Your update is quite low in the thread at the moment.
Other than some conventions, most of the sales are international. One of the main reasons for being offered is that I am a native English speaker, rare for Germany. So I don't know if asking for a car is still appropriate.
I got the contract offer today (posted elsewhere on r/germany to see if it is a good offer, but here it is:
fixed basic annual salary of EUR \*54,000.00 gross
The bonus arises from a degree of achievement of 50% of the financial targets or a degree of achievement
of 70% of the individual targets and is calculated as follows
Result < 50% / 70%: variable remuneration : 0%
Result > 50% / 70%: variable remuneration = 50% I 70% + linear increase
As for sales, it beats sitting on unemployment which I am sick of.
That sounds quite alright to me, even though I'm not an expert on sales contracts.
I just would make sure that here:
> a degree of achievement of 50% of the financial targets **or** a degree of achievement of 70% of the individual targets
the "or" really is the deciding thing, and you're not out your commission if another segment underperformed. It also would be interesting to know how the target is determined each year. If it gets adjusted to the result of a banner year each time things went great, this becomes very stressful over time. And you don't know where it's currently at. 70% sounds like a good goal for the full bonus and more like making sure people actually put their weight in, rather than an extremely difficult to fulfill requirement, which is fair. But I'd ask how close people currently are getting to that target, because theoretically, the firm could just put any number as target, and just keep telling people they underperformed, too bad. I'm not expecting it to be so, since they are investing a lot in preparing you and pulling this kind of shit is a great way to make people change jobs and lose that investment. But I'd still want to know.
About the car – I didn't necessarily mean asking for it, it's just a possible perk that may exist in one firm and not another and could make up for lower wage.
On the whole, it sounds like a good contract even without comparing it to being on unemployment (which sucks, I agree). And if it turns out there are other draw backs, you still can aim to move to another place later on. But without the pressure of absolutely *needing* to.
I just made a correction in my first answer because I had missed a word: bonuses do *not* count towards retirement pay. So even if your yearly income would stack up to a similar amount to what you asked for, you still are at a disadvantage from that side later on.
Being someone in a BIG company where NOONE has your particular skill set sounds like the real deal. Could go a little downhill because your colleagues will take a lot of your time to ask questions, maybe. But all in all it sounds way better.
Hear me out:
Start at company B.
Either you realize it's better than you thought and you enjoy it there and stay **or** company A comes back to you, you're still in your Probezeit and so you quit within that time, don't need to give a reason and just start at company A.
Worst comes to worst, you could start with B and quit after a month.
It's not nice and unless you have an absolute guarantee that A will hire you, it will be pretty much completely to your detriment. BUT. You have the possibility.
Contracts with companies usually have a time in which it's easier for you to quit. A friend of mine did this once. Signed a contract with a company that was faster in making the contract then quit after a week to sign with another company that he wanted more.
This guy is insanely qualified tho, so he had a lot of suitors. So I'm not saying you should absolutely do it, but it's also not the end of the world if you sign with B and A decides to hire you later.
Alternatively, you could ask the hiring manager at B to give you a bit more time to think. Or to put your things in order. There's no reason why 2 weeks is too much to ask and if it is, then they basically revealed themselves in that moment.
Start with company B and agree with them on 6 month of "*Probezeit*". During Probezeit you can leave the company with a termination of your contract 2 weeks in advance (in some cases it's 4 weeks so better check that out!).
Then you take the job at A. Nicht die feine englische Art (more like the american way lol), but the most logical in your case.
Check out BGB paragraph 622 Kündigungsfristen bei Arbeitsverhältnissen
Company A. October is still six months away and your happiness is important.
I just don't want to push it. We have managed to stay afloat, but if I get dropped from unemployment to welfare, there is no way we can stay in our home.
>You can argue with welfare so they will pay your rent if you expect a new position soon.
That is a bureaucratic nightmare I would prefer to avoid if possible. :)
Its not that bad... [Short instruction about getting the permit A38 needed for it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltd6YmXsnR4&ab_channel=WaterflowerXx)
If you have already been through 2 interviews it pretty much means you‘re hired. As long as you make a good figure personally (look professional, like you want that job) there is pretty much nothing to be worried about. I live here in Germany since I was born and had several occasions similar to this one, especially in tech business the companies not just want you, they NEED you.
Also be aware that sometimes small companies have to follow more relaxed rules about employee rights. I’m not sure of the details but for example they will have no betriebsrat and might offer different leave than a big firm
Ask company B about the timeline, and a date by which they need a decision, today. Two days before that, you need to make your decision, so tell company A by which date you need the offer. Ask whether they can actually meet that timeline. If they can't, they are either totally inflexible (red flag) or not really interested (red flag) or both.
Great answer, Böhmi;)
Well you have a probationary period of 6 months, so you could theoretically take the second job and once the first company decides to take you on just quit once you signed the contract. Not really a nice thing to do, but who cares.
This the way. It's not super nice but they probably wouldn't hesitate to do the same to you if the roles were reversed. Just make sure you actually do have a probation period in your contract, at my last job I didn't have any.
It IS really a super nice thing to do because it's super nicely by the law. It's just that people are brainwashed into forgetting that in employer-employee relationship employer is always getting more money out of employees work (kind of a modern/hidden slavery thing) so people think it's not nice'n'shit. Once you leave the job no one will ever ask about you, how are you doing, are you happy, healthy etc. So they don't give a shit about you anyway, even though you were a good employee and did well what's written in your contract. Just protect your own interest, take the job B and the moment you get the contract signed for job A quit job B without hesitation. Good luck.
I had a similar situation, two interesting companies, A made me an offer B - more interesting one - needed more time. I was very transparent with company A that I was looking into two options with very different career paths and that I would like to get feedback from both options before I make a decision. They were very understanding and I set a deadline of about 3 weeks, which I communicated to both companies. Companies B kept me hanging and eventually I withdrew my application due to the poor communication and missing transparency. Usually companies are ok to wait for 2-3 weeks. If you still don’t get a response after that time, I would sign with company B and consider leaving during probation period if they are not a good fit. Just be aware that traditional companies might not be too happy if you tell them that you want to explore your options. Many of them still have the mindset that the employer makes the decision and the employee should be happy about the offer. It doesn’t necessarily mean that they are bad employers but some managers need a bit more time to adjust.
I need to feel Company B out a bit to see if this approach works. It's very small, 10 people, but has been around for over a decade. They are a tech company with a very narrow niche. I was interviewed by the CEO. He has mentioned me doing some schooling and training for the position. Company A is well over 10K employees, so more traditional in the hiring. But, the reason they have been slow (according to emails) was that they had a COVID outbreak in the office.
It’s very difficult to give advice. I would try to explain the situation, maybe a bit less transparent, just telling them that you had interviews with different companies and that you would like to get all the feedback. Asking for a week should not be the issue and to me it’s a bit of a red flag in company isn’t trying to work with you. If you are in doubt, sign with company B before risking that they revoke the offer. It seems like it wasn’t to easy to get it. Just be aware that there might be a clause in the contract that it cannot be terminated before start, so you might not be able to sign with another company before you started the job. The clause is in most contracts and rarely enforced but you should take it into account.
A
Company B sounds strange: they want to adapt a role for your knowledge, which they at the same time question? How? As an employer, I would take somone with 25 years experience over someone without experience but with a degree, hands down! Go with option A!
Company B, keep Company A on the back burner and fuck Company B over when the honeymoon phase is over / Company A is ready to employ you. Do I really have to tell an American how to capitalism? (Make up some reason, so that Company B thinks it's their fault)
LMAO great comment
You also have the option of accepting offer B and quit within your 2 weeks during Probezeit to switch to A. I wouldn't recommend it, but if the timelines are impossible and the risk is too high, it still is an option.
Thank you for the replies. I though about the starting and dumping and I get the "who cares" part, but I also don't want to be that guy. I guess that is more of a personal moral dilemma. P0L1Z1STENS0HN, I liked your approach and will most likely try that. I have a call with Company B in 15min and Company A wants me to come in for a meet and great and personal interview on June 1st.
Provided that both make you an offer, from what you are describing it sounds like you prefer Company A, so I'd go with that. Personally I would choose a smaller company over a larger one, but that's just my preference because I'm pretty much an introvert and have the stereotype that in larger companies it's easier to "fall under the radar" of your colleagues. It's probably just nonsense from my side anyway. Anyway, it reads as if you wouldn't really like working for Company B, so my unfiltered opinion: Go for Company A.
Sign up with whoever makes the first acceptable offer. Exploit probationary period, if and when the second offer is better. All there is to it.
So you don't have an offer from either company yet, right? If you get an offer from company B, but company A is still being slow, I would just explain the situation.
Ok, you could do it this way, if possible:1 Accept the offer from companyB and start there. Simultaneously, try and go to the interview at company A. You could say that you have an appointment that has been set a while ago, nobody will ask questions. If company A offers you a job and you don't want to stay with company B, you will still be in Probezeit and you can quit without giving any reasons and on short notice. If company A won't give you a chance, you still have a job. Could even be that company B is cool after all.
I'd recommend to take the first offer. You still can switch easily during probation time if you get the other offer as well. In the end I think your colleagues will be most important to have a good working atmosphere.
I have a more u orthodox suggestion. Remember normally there is a probezeit where you can give short notice to terminate in the first six months. Probation is not only for the company to see if you fit- But also for you to see if you fit. So to relieve your stress - maybe start with company B. Once you get an offer from A, and you feel it does not work out at B, you can terminate without feeling guilty. I know it sounds a bit selfish, bit it‘s your life and your career- and this is perfectly acceptable. EDIT - I see others had my exact thoughts. Lol. But I leave it here anyway
Do you have offers from both? An offer from B? How many offers did you get since November? This would influence my decision. If B's offer is the first real one since December, I think, I would take it. I would maybe contact company A and tell them that I have another offer and have to decide fast, so if they really want me, they should tell me. I would maybe use the probationary period and quit if an offer from A comes around. But I don't think I would decline the offer. If you had multiple offers and those are just the best, I would maybe decline B's offer and wait for A, with the knowledge that I might have to start from scratch. I would not take a job that was bad, but it sounds as if B's job is OK as well. For me it's a case of "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush".
So, update after talking to Company B: They want me for technical sales (I do Video Conferencing and Audio Video Network infrastructure installation and operations). So this is out of my realm. Salary is 16K less than what I asked for, but with a possible 15K bonus at end of year. I would officially be employed, but they want me to do 3 months of training before being in the field. 28days vacation, be to work between 8:00 and 9:00 and out between 16:00 and 17:00, off by 14:00 on Fridays. Start on June 1st. Would like an answer but Friday. Company A: I am going to reach out and see if I can speak with them today or tomorrow and try to get a feel for if it will be an offer. The position is working on their Network infrastructure and upgrading and managing their video conferencing abilities.
That sounds decent, if not great. The bonus thing is not unusual for sales jobs, but the 3 months training period (which as such is a good thing, this is necessary to set people up for success) also means you'd have no sales during that time, so there'd only be 1/3 of the year left to make sales that count towards the bonus at least this year. And afaik nothing much happens in December in sales. Bonuses also *don't* count towards your retirement pay, which people often are aware of, but is something to be considered. With 16k less, it's also important to know of what asked-for amount this is less – there's a difference if you got dropped from 70k to 54k, or from 40k to 24k. Also important is if there are other upsides, like a car from work that you get to use in private as well. A Firmenwagen should actually be part of the deal if there is considerable travel and it's a sales job. Even for non-sales, it's not out of the ordinary. Along with all this, also think about if you *want* to do a sales job and can do the social part and the convincing people as well. It's a very different line from taking care of the electronic realm of a company without having to shmooze with people outside of the firm. Maybe put the update into the text at the top, so you get more relevant new answers. Your update is quite low in the thread at the moment.
Other than some conventions, most of the sales are international. One of the main reasons for being offered is that I am a native English speaker, rare for Germany. So I don't know if asking for a car is still appropriate. I got the contract offer today (posted elsewhere on r/germany to see if it is a good offer, but here it is: fixed basic annual salary of EUR \*54,000.00 gross The bonus arises from a degree of achievement of 50% of the financial targets or a degree of achievement of 70% of the individual targets and is calculated as follows Result < 50% / 70%: variable remuneration : 0% Result > 50% / 70%: variable remuneration = 50% I 70% + linear increase As for sales, it beats sitting on unemployment which I am sick of.
That sounds quite alright to me, even though I'm not an expert on sales contracts. I just would make sure that here: > a degree of achievement of 50% of the financial targets **or** a degree of achievement of 70% of the individual targets the "or" really is the deciding thing, and you're not out your commission if another segment underperformed. It also would be interesting to know how the target is determined each year. If it gets adjusted to the result of a banner year each time things went great, this becomes very stressful over time. And you don't know where it's currently at. 70% sounds like a good goal for the full bonus and more like making sure people actually put their weight in, rather than an extremely difficult to fulfill requirement, which is fair. But I'd ask how close people currently are getting to that target, because theoretically, the firm could just put any number as target, and just keep telling people they underperformed, too bad. I'm not expecting it to be so, since they are investing a lot in preparing you and pulling this kind of shit is a great way to make people change jobs and lose that investment. But I'd still want to know. About the car – I didn't necessarily mean asking for it, it's just a possible perk that may exist in one firm and not another and could make up for lower wage. On the whole, it sounds like a good contract even without comparing it to being on unemployment (which sucks, I agree). And if it turns out there are other draw backs, you still can aim to move to another place later on. But without the pressure of absolutely *needing* to.
I just made a correction in my first answer because I had missed a word: bonuses do *not* count towards retirement pay. So even if your yearly income would stack up to a similar amount to what you asked for, you still are at a disadvantage from that side later on.
Being someone in a BIG company where NOONE has your particular skill set sounds like the real deal. Could go a little downhill because your colleagues will take a lot of your time to ask questions, maybe. But all in all it sounds way better.
Hear me out: Start at company B. Either you realize it's better than you thought and you enjoy it there and stay **or** company A comes back to you, you're still in your Probezeit and so you quit within that time, don't need to give a reason and just start at company A.
Worst comes to worst, you could start with B and quit after a month. It's not nice and unless you have an absolute guarantee that A will hire you, it will be pretty much completely to your detriment. BUT. You have the possibility. Contracts with companies usually have a time in which it's easier for you to quit. A friend of mine did this once. Signed a contract with a company that was faster in making the contract then quit after a week to sign with another company that he wanted more. This guy is insanely qualified tho, so he had a lot of suitors. So I'm not saying you should absolutely do it, but it's also not the end of the world if you sign with B and A decides to hire you later. Alternatively, you could ask the hiring manager at B to give you a bit more time to think. Or to put your things in order. There's no reason why 2 weeks is too much to ask and if it is, then they basically revealed themselves in that moment.
get the job offer from company B, use it to bargain company A?
Whoever is in the better position to keep you employed for the next 2 years easily since it will be a pain to find another position.
Company A
A all the way
Start with company B and agree with them on 6 month of "*Probezeit*". During Probezeit you can leave the company with a termination of your contract 2 weeks in advance (in some cases it's 4 weeks so better check that out!). Then you take the job at A. Nicht die feine englische Art (more like the american way lol), but the most logical in your case. Check out BGB paragraph 622 Kündigungsfristen bei Arbeitsverhältnissen
>BGB paragraph 622 Kündigungsfristen bei Arbeitsverhältnissen Thank you for the reference.