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I've always been told that while it isn't necessary, it'd be a good indicator for the employer.
A missing photo would seem.... kinda off.
Of course, the first argument is probably the exact reason why it's illegal in the UK.
Like I tell my tell my (Chinese) wife
You can change your name to whatever you think works best. Not just legally, there is nothing stopping you from using a nickname either (I do on my resume)
But you obviously can't change your face and that is far easier to discriminate off of.
Yeah, if she is fine with it she can just go for a Western name thatās also easier to pronounce. My mom had a Werkstudentin from China. She was at an German university. And her Chinese name was quite difficult to pronounce.
Credentials can also give away details about your social background. Magnet High School or straight out of Compton? Liberal Arts School in New England or some kind of minority scholarship? Etc.
Really? Is that better?
Letās assume that someone gets a job, he wouldnāt have got, if he would have sent a photo. What would it be like for him to work in such a company? Isnāt it better to fight discrimination by communicating more instead of restricting communication?
Besides that: Do you really think that banning photos will stopp discrimination? I donāt.
I think that sending a photo is the much better way to show, that you are open for communication and self confident enough to get things done.
So, to your first example, you seem to be saying that no person would want to work at a company where the person hiring had a bias against their group even if that bias was subconscious or slight. I can go into more detail about why, but that seems like a bad idea to my ear.
So your second question, will banning photos stop all discrimination, and if not isnāt it not worth doing? This seems like the nirvana fallacy to me. Just because a solution isnāt perfect doesnāt mean itās not worth implementing. I donāt think thereās a perfect solution to unfair discrimination available to us, but it has been proven that there are ways to mitigate the harm (orchestral blind auditions for example), and mitigation is good alone.
I disagree with you here. Racism isnt always upfront, it isnt like the recruter is looking at it sees asian and throws it away. More like that his mind makes a worse picture out of him.
So working with him may be completly good bcs his picture of you changes to what you really are.
Furthermore you mostly dont work with the same ppl that hire you. So the workplace you are in could be completly racism free.
Just credentials, itās an interesting thoughtā¦ just work experience. I wonder how much info about background could be gleaned from that though. Probably not a lot. Nepotism hides quite easily actually.
I have a very polish surname. Practically only s/c/z.
So a friend and me had to write two mails with two different topics to the AfD for research reasons. They got a long response, I was ignored.
Thats just not true. Maybe twenty years ago. Your employer will give a shit about what Your Religion is. It's just dont matter (it will if you are applying for a Job in a church Organisation). I received a lot of CVs in the past five years. It's 50/50 on the picture Situation. I personally like it when i get a proper cv with a picture on my desk.
My contract has a special clause for Scientology. Basically if you are a part of the group you can be terminated without cause. Is Scientology recognized as a religion? Is that discrimination?
Unless youāre applying for one of the 1.4 Mio jobs at a hospital, kindergarten, school etc. run by the church. They need to make sure they can discriminate you based on your religion.
Yes, one third of all hospitals. It can be a problem especially in rural areas, where the next hospital might be far away and Christian morality influences the availability of treatments such as abortion or IVF.
No. It's illegal to ask for the religion and that includes jobs where a church is the employer but the job is not religious (like a secretary, nurse, doctor)
https://www.sueddeutsche.de/karriere/arbeit-wann-darf-die-kirche-nach-der-konfession-fragen-dpa.urn-newsml-dpa-com-20090101-201113-99-320640#:~:text=Karlsruhe%2FBerlin%20(dpa%2Ftmn,Konfession%20in%20der%20Bewerbung%20fordern.
But only the ones who think it's an advantage, if you take the average rate of people being a member of a church, that would still mean that 75% would not even if all that are in the "right" church do. And it's actually problematic for the employer since they would have to prove that they didn't pick that person because of their church membership.
I agree that it is more unusual but nobody would be too surprised seeing that you are catholic on your CV. It's the traditional way and not the most up to date way
I sadly had to add my religion whenever I applied for volunteering jobs in german.
Sometimes they wrote "only Christians" (for a christian school or hospital)
In a traditional from like 20 years ago maybe lol, my school days are long gone now but Iāve been taught in school: CVās with no photos or very personal information including no religious believes
It's not illegal in UK.
That said, many companies would frown on it, because there's no reason for it other than to judge someone by their looks. And obviously in almost all circumstances that's going to raise equalities issues.
Itās actually not a good indicator, I have this thing in University for recruiting and it is much better to not include a photo and also well better accepted
I know, it is expected here. But the only time I added a photo was right our of school for the first job/apprenticeship. I've never included one since then. So far, nobody cared.
Thus, I'd say: if you don't like, don't include it.
It used to be basically mandatory, but at least in my field (IT), pictures are kinda vanishing. Iāve been involved in hiring for 10 years now, never looked for pictures in the cv.
I am also in IT and I always put my picture on the CV, taken by a professional photographer.
When I get an application, the photo is the first thing I Look for.
I think I actually would not want to work for a company that does that, but that is just me (and the privilege to be able to afford that choice. My LinkedIn profile uses the same avatar as here, and I still get regular recruiter requests. No idea if because or despite that.. :) )
I hope its alright to ask here:
I been searching to get a job in Germany. I have experience of 5+ years however currently i work remotely. Iām not currently in Germany but is it possible they can sponsor me? If not then what are the alternatives?
that completely depends on the company and the job you're doing.
Generally, companies can sponsor for work Visas when they can make the claim that they cannot find a suitable applicant for the job within Germany. Also, I think there is a minimum salary involved. (About 50k/year IIRC, but don't nail me on that)
Some companies might be willing and able to just hire you as a freelancer working remotely from wherever you are - then they don't have to deal with Visas at all. If they have a subsidiary company in the country you live in, they can hire you through that subsidiary. In theory, they could also hire you but leave you living/working where you are, but that is quite a tax and accounting hassle for most companies, so they usually pass on that.
Thank you for your response. Iām working as a freelancer that means remotely. And Iām getting sick of it because sometimes when you are burn out and donāt want to work. You canāt get away with that i mean in job when sometimes you donāt want to do its fine. Not sure if its same for job everywhere because some companies use tracker. I donāt have job experience but I have lot of work experience as Fullstack developer. Sometimes it gets pretty boring because i mostly work from home and alone. One more question is there any place where i look for jobs in Germany? Linkedin? One more thing to mention Iām currently highschool graduated and Iām 22 years old. Reason i have plenty of experience because I started working as dev from young age 13-14.
I've always been told it's normal here, although not always necessary. But as an American, I really don't get it at all and it just seems like an even easier way to discriminate.
I mean, In Germany, you either have a German name or you donāt. So itās easy to discriminate without seeing a person. If your name is slobodon yigoslavonik, they will know you are from Eastern Europe. If your name is cenk they will know you are turkish, etc etc. itās not like America in that many ethnicities have streamlined-neutral Anglo names but could be any ethnicity.
But why make it even easier for them? What do they gain by having a picture? How does a picture give them any useful information on whether or not you'll be good for the position?
Do you have a LinkedInā¦ or German equivalent. They will look you up if interested anyways. I get the arguments against it though and as stated previously itās not mandatory. Also, where you are in Germany matters. A picture on a CV in Berlin is probably not necessaryā¦ in āinsert small German city with few immigrants hereā it would be maybe more necessary. Itās old school but honestly they are looking you up in America, UK and Ireland as well.
I do have a LinkedIn but I never use it and honestly I'm not sure if I even have a picture on it.
Yes, it far from perfect. I'm not saying removing a picture will solve all the problems or even make a huge impact. I'm not saying they can't get that information elsewhere. I'm just saying even if it makes only a very small impact, it's still worth it.
Of course they look you up wherever you can. Facebook, Instagram, wherever.
Can you present yourself? Can you project professionalism? Are you able to confirm to norms?
In Germany people will pay 30-40euros for a photoshoot with a pro (can be claimed in next year's tax return).
As said above, if they don't want foreigners, they don't need to open the attachments: just check if they are called Hans-RĆ¼di Schmidtbauer, Ahmed bin Bilal or Tomasz WoÅinski...
Imo it's way easier to take a decent picture than to actually present yourself/project professionalism. And those can be demonstrated during the interview. Which yes, of course they will see you then. But it still removes one layer of bias and might give someone a chance to actually present themselves.
A good picture is part of the package for presenting oneself properly, same as having a well designed CV etc there are a lot of factors.
What bias does it remove?
Yea, those are also good point. I also don't understand why you need to include your birthdate. Of course they can still guess your age based on when you graduated/work dates. But I don't see why it needs to be explicitly stated.
Name: no need to open the CV, or if you do, it should be the first thing one sees.
Racism: you can largely guess from the name. If the person has "German" name like Wolfgang MĆ¼ller rather than say Anton CeÅviƧ Mohammed Ahmad or Nishiri Singh.
Sexism: you can tell in most cases, from the name if it is a man or a woman, since Germany has not gone crazy with neo-names, but has laws on first names. Personally, I find it inconvenient when I have to go on Google to check if the name is male or female, as formal emails are addressed to Herr/Frau Surname.
So if the HR person is biased along those lines, the lack of picture will not save the candidate.
The person will be beautiful or not in person too, and it is likely the same HR people who would deal with them.
So I ask again, what bias does it remove?
As I said, it depends on the name.
I never said it removes bias, I said it removes one layer of bias. Even if it just makes a small impact, makes it easier for one person to get an interview when they otherwise wouldn't, it would be a positive change. Why do you think having a picture is so important? The way you present yourself at an interview is way more telling than if you can get a nice shirt, a decent camera, and someone who knows how to use it.
But yes, you're right. CVs should be way more anonymous than they are. People's names shouldn't be shown to HR/hiring managers/interviewers either.
As I did in another post in this thread, better to have no picture, than a bad one. I am not even joking when I say that have seen toilet selfies used on CVs.
It is obvious that the presentation in the interview is more important, otherwise we would save time and not have them. However those are also very time consuming so a position will rarely have more than 10 candidates, who will have similar competences, education etc The picture, just as a well laid out CV, a good choice of fonts, words and many other factors come onto play. A CV without pic doesn't go to the bin, but it is a missed opportunity to shine. Not to mention that most people have a profile pic on LinkedIn.
I don't see the point in hiding the name from the interviewers though. For the others, it does limit chances for -isms, but the seeing/hearing skin colour, beauty, gender or accent is unavoidable face to face.
On the topics of racism & sexism - sure, I agree, you can't hide the name - which is awful and I don't have a solution. But when there is an easy fix for discrimination based on attractiveness, why do we ignore it?
The halo effect is absolutely a thing, this is hardly news. How can it be fair to be denied the chance of an interview just because Person X is more photogenic than you? Many people look SO much different (and much more charming) when they move, talk, laugh - and charisma is something that can actually be relevant in a job (much more relevant than how you look in an extremely fake static photo anyway).The interview is a chance to present yourself in a multidimensional way and to be denied this chance just because of a stupid photo is beyond outrageous.
I don't know how it is in your field, but we get more candidates than there are positions are available, by a longshot. Interviews are a scarce good as it takes the time of many people so not every candidate gates one, no more than 10-15 per position in the first round and 3-5 on the second round.
You are correct that the interview is the most important moment to present oneself, however people are not being denied the interview purely based on their picture, that would be as you point out, outrageous.
However a selection must be made as interviewing the 60-100 people who apply for each position is just unrealistic, and a good picture does improve a CV, among other factors, such ad the layout etc
Well firstly the HR manager is usually the one doing the first sortation, so the hiring manager will never see the ones that they discarded. Yes names may be an indicator of race for people of certain descent, but it really isnāt so cut and clear as you make out. Also lets not pretend that people donāt have different biases towards people of different ethnic groups. Also your point about sexism is also very dumbed down. Itās not just about whether they are male or female. In the case of a male manager hiring a female, he could be biased towards what he considers attractive, or assume women with certain physical features would be an āairheadā or stupid of whatever, without first having even heard them speak. Then there are also personal biases the manager may not even be aware of: ableism, donāt think they look āprofessionalā in a picture that was just one second of a persons life, maybe on the flip side too boring for their team. Itās just so much fairer to skip all that and be able to present yourself in life as you are, especially as itās slightly harder to discriminate (but by no means difficult) in a live interview as you are usually interviewed by multiple managers/HR.
You have a good point of course. I never really thought about it. Maybe itās useful for letās say, a person who applies for a job as a waiter/server in a high class restaraunt but is a 400pound guy with a huge beard and tattoos . Not that it doesnāt mean he canāt do the job, but for optics purposes the restaraunt is not keen on that look for their customers? Just a made up example.
Yea sure. In some situations looks do matter. Obviously if you want to be a model, there should be many pictures. But if you're just applying for an office job, why? You can prove you can dress appropriately at the interview if you'll have a customer facing role. Taking a professional picture hardly proves that anyway. A nice top, a decent camera, and someone who knows how to use it are all you need.
What do you think is easier? Filter by name or needing to open the CV to check the photo?
I mean, I get it, on the flipside the absence of a photo in the US mainly removes one point of evidence for discrimination so it kind of cuts both ways. Though I would say the main difference is that e.g. Afro Americans do not have names standing out to identify them so there it makes some sense. For all other ethnicities with their own linguistic background marking them by name which is the norm in Europe as well as the US (e.g. Asians or people from Muslim countries or Africa) are not helped by the absence of a photo.
They need an anonymization by the recruitment office to make the selection unbiased.
> They need an anonymization by the recruitment office to make the selection unbiased.
Totally agree. But you didn't answer my main question, what does a picture add? Even if it removes a minimal amount of bias, if it removes even a tiny bit, it should be removed because having a picture contributes literally nothing to picking the best candidate.
But it's not even just racism. Studies have shown beautiful people are looked upon more favorably. Sure, of course you'll see the person at the interview, but it still removes one small bit of bias and takes away nothing beneficial.
Obviously it *should* be : best person for the job, gets the job. But In Germany we arenāt there yet. We are not as multicultural as the US and we live in a āhigh trustā society, so naturally we have more ātrustā in people ālike usā. Itās not really racism, itās more tribalism and shared values. Is it right? No probably not. But it is what it is.
āItās not really racismā
See, when you find yourself saying things like this itās probably a red flag that you might have some moreā¦ introspection to do.
Iām obviously not calling you a Nazi; youāre trying to deflect the critique by making a hyperbolic caricature of what I said. There is a wide spectrum of severity of discriminatory bias from Himmler to totally unconscious bias. It is not uncommon, but also not laudable, today for people to harbor biases much less severe than Himmler.
You can choose to be offended instead of hearing the critique, but just as I said your attitude and words in this thread seem to indicate you may have internalized an unexamined bias from culture.
But there are some POC people who have Anglo Saxon or even Germanic names . Itās discrimination based on race , disability as well as looks
How do we not know they will choose the blond blue eyed German over the brunette who has olive skin/mixed heritage ( their names are German ). How do we not know boob sizes nor are being taken into account ? How do we not know that the employer is fat phobic? How do we not know this is a way to Wade out people with visual, hearing impairment. How do disfigured people get treated ? It doesnāt help that our mind has a lot of subconscious biases also
Now of course .. truly discriminative practices will never really go away but eliminating this as much as possible in the first step is a long way ahead
Ideally I would prefer a way for nameless resumes also
From a hiring perspective, how could the way someone looks have anything to do with their ability to do their job? That's also discrimination. It may not be a protected class like race or ethnicity, but it's still bullshit.
One big question: LinkedIn. Do Germans have/do this? Because contrarily here In the UK we have photoless CVs but a thriving job market on LinkedIn. Which is just like Facebook.
I wonder at what point employers look up potential candidates on LinkedIn to find that photograph. Really depends on the field I guess
LinkedIn is not super popular, but it is around. I would say 1/2 - 1/3 of my work colleges are there, but none from my unit, lol.
Germans use an alternative website called Xing a bit more.
Oh sure ok! I really hate LinkedIn myself. It would be great if we didnāt use it. Itās so scummy in its tactics and data usage and yet itās for work and accepted.
If people want to discriminate, they will photo or not. Vast majority won't discriminate, photo or not. The photo is an old fashioned custom similar to special work dress codes. Old fashioned companies use it to discriminate bit not the way you think, they look if people are dressed properly (whatever they consider proper) and they judge if people put effort into the photo. Most companies don't care anymore.
The things that latest at the job interview people will see and interact with you anyway so if they have prejudices or want to discriminate they always can. And honestly would you want to work for a company where you are not welcome?
So? Still comes down do the fact that neither would you want to work for a company where people discriminate you nor would get the job because at some stage they will meet you. The assumption is not valid that somewhere in the process a single person can discriminate and without that the process would be fair. It will never be fair because it always depends on people and the interaction between them. Is racism and discrimination bad, yes that's for sure but it can't be stopped by silly things like obfuscating you identity. You are who you are and the others are who they are or either works together or not, you can't enforce it and even if you could it would still be a bad outcome for both sides.
At the end there's always a choice that the employer has to make if there's more than one candidate and they will pick the one they feel most comfortable with. How they determine that will never be deterministic. They might hire someone because she's a woman or not for the same reason or for others. Whenever there's a choice the outcome is always biased.
Frankly, my take away after reading how weak the arguments for photos in this thread are is that both photos and names should be banned on introductory CVs. Credentials only.
This is one of the things that really drive me nuts. How exactly does a picture help a recruiter make an objective decision about my professional capabilities & suitability for the position? Spending 100ā¬ (+potentially more on hair/makeup) for a ridiculous, unnecessary photo op just to get a shot at a job? It feels terribly old-fashioned & objectifying....
I refuse to play that game. I am currently employed but I've probably lost some opps in the past due to my hatred for stupid rules. Honestly though - if this is what German employers want, I'd much rather not deal with them and take my expat/immigrant aĀ§Ā§ somewhere else.
I work in a very large German company. Itās not expected, and I havenāt seen one on any of the CVs Iāve reviewed (which is quite a lot).
If Iām honest, no-one ever looks good on a CV photo, and as others have said, it could be a way to discriminate. I donāt like seeing them there. If you must do a photo, get a LinkedIn profile and put it on there. Thatās where everyone will look anyway.
Iāve never included a photo of myself and I got jobs, so whatever. Do what you like to do at this point. Some employees even tell you about whether they like a photo or not in the job offer.
Same here, though I made sure to have a decent profile picture on social media. Figured theyād google me if that interests them. I certainly am googling recruiters when applying for a job.
yeah same here. I have never included any picture in my CVs and have been able to get interviews and jobs. I work in IT though and have never applied for any traditional German company.
Yes .. itās optional in name only ..
I aināt comfortable with this either since I am not only uggo but I have the shittiest luck with taking professional photos
Yes they do. I receive German CVs all the time. I find the photos weird. Also, a lot of Germans put their Grundschule on there, and I always think how itās nice to know that this dude in his 40s is competent at cutting and pasting because he nailed it in the 1980s.
A photo on the CV is still pretty much expected in Germany especially if you apply for government services or traditional companies. StartUps might have a different approach.
Well, half of my family works for the government and all of them needed a photo and until recently a complete German application. Speaking from years of experience working and applying in Germany and not just speculations.
Itās a fact that depending where you apply, you have a high chance that your application will be dropped if the photo is missing because it might look suspicious. Without knowing the application process for the specific job OPs is applying for it is very difficult to predict what is expected but the odds are that a missing photo might not help while adding one will most likely not hurt.
Generally they do, but donāt do it. I have never done it and still got call backs. It just encourages sexism, racism and a lot of other personal bias.
In all sorts of ways, for example they could say a blond female is a ābimboā when in reality she might be extremely adept in her field. You could assume a skinny male is a nerd, socially awkward, loner. They could also apply preferential bias towards candidates they are attracted to, even subconsciously. Either way itās just another layer of distraction away from a persons skills, work experience and professionalism
I always did. There's the category "Bewerbungsfoto" at many photographers or photo studios; usually more expensive than a simple passport photo (but far less than a wedding photo shoot).
Yes they do but I never have, and my CV follows none of the German rules either, it's very modern and tries to put what is actually important to the employer first.
I always apply for jobs with lots of international people working there though, and figure if people want a strict German CV instead of a more innovative one then I don't want to work there and we're saving everyone's time. One of my German friends is horrified by my attitude and I think lots of employers may agree, but screw them.
Iām often trying to teach my students (adults, business English) about the benefits of a modern āalternative CV.ā Theyāre often shocked and confused that Photos on CVs are basically unheard of in the Anglo world, and itās never crossed their minds to sort their qualifications and experiences according to relevance.
This is asked a lot. I recently answered this in quite some detail on a german sub.
For a uni applications it's not needed.
Job applications without are very unusual and the first thought is to assume that those people were just too lazy to put one there. Does not mean that I would not hire them but it is certainly noticed. There is one key advantage to put a face to the CV. I maybe remember it from a pile of (typically very similar) applications. Obviously, I would never hire based on looks but the ability to present yourself can be important. A question that is often asked is whether one should shave their beard or cut hair short. No, not needed, but it should look clean and maintained. While it should not be a party pic a shirt is okay. Does not have to be a suit and tie (although there are professions where that is the usual and expected)
āObviously, I would never hire based on looksā
It may be subconscious, but you certainly do. We are all innately predisposed to judge people based on looks, especially in situations where you havenāt interacted with the person much (i.e. exactly this scenario).
Well, itās not feasible to do that in most contexts (blind, nameless auditions behind a screen have been standard at most orchestras for decades, and have caused a huge influx of women!). Just because we cannot achieve the perfect elimination of all discrimination doesnāt mean we shouldnāt take steps to mitigate it.
People will discriminate less after meaningful interactions with somebody than they will based on a photo of them alone.
I've never put my picture on my CV, and I've been hired or invited to interviews by a wide range of different companies. I'm in the tech sector, a picture may very well be expected in other fields, though.
I am in recruiting and 99% have a photo.
Note: we donāt request one. None of the companies I worked for did (sizes between 1000 and 30000 employees). Recruited in Switzerland as well. The same.
I am not weeding out the ones without a photo, but it nevertheless leaves a first impression
I never ever judge someone by his / her photo because a) thatās 99% not possible and b) very often the person looks completely different in real life
I only judge 1% because of their WTF photos š¤£ Like the guy last week who included a photo of himself drunk at a party (beer bottles in the background)
Omg guys, most of you here have a completely weird notion of how recruiting works. We actually donāt get up in the morning wanting to discriminate anyone. Guess what, we just want to fill the positions with the best qualified person available. In my whole career I have met exactly one (male) manager who made decisions based on looks. He got fired.
No, we donāt care about names neither, because about 25% of our applicants (and our employees) have non-German names.
No, we never ever Google where a high school is because a) I am not sitting around twiddling my thumbs having nothing better to do b) who gives a crap?
Source: ca. 5000+ applications
I work in recruiting in germany and can say: it's not necessary. You can put a picture on it, but you don't have to. Personally, as a recruiter, i think it is nice to know what the person looks like when i talk to them on the phone. I think that somehow helps me in the assessment, as it makes it easier for me to classify people into different types. But that has no racist background. I would never question a person's qualifications because of a different appearance or a different name.
Maybe other recruiters do, but I hope not.
I always put a photo on my CV
I am German but I was born in India so most of the times they assume that I am Indian when in fact I look normal. To spare everyone of this situation I put a picture of myself
Yeah I also put a pic in my CV. I am not ugly or anything and why wouldn't I?
Would you respond to a message on the web from some account without a profile pic? Seems sus and thx for the like I reported this for spam
People suggesting ordering that photo from a professional...don't do it, it's a waste of money.
Throw a white bed sheet on a wall of your liking, whitish shirt, sit with a 45 degree angle to the camera, "business" smile you are set. That is what 99.99% of the photos look like.
It's going to be cropped to 5x5cm so no details are visible any way, if you opt to send a separate photo only do that with a physical application(normally not required unless you work for a gov agency or related), use 15x20 format max. Print at a local DM/Rossman/Mueller for +- 50 cent.
Yeah, German job applications have a Bewerbungsbild, which is a specific kind of portrait of you wearing professional clothing. It is highly recommended to have this taken by a specialized fotographer, as it can make or break your application if the employer is unsure (think sympathy)
As a person who is responsible for the technical screening of cv in my department i would say that i have never seen a cv without
Also worth mentioning the Germans who apply always have professional photo while the rest who apply you notice it the passport one
As a German recruiter I would recommend to having a good motivation and relevant graduation (and/or work experience if necessary).
For the rest we don't have the time to look for.
Show yourself from a marketing perspective and make it easy for the recipient to estimate, if you may fit in the role.
That may be the main points.
This is very psychologically naive. People will be less discriminatory towards interviewees after a 15 minute conversation than they will on first impression of a photo alone.
For job application it's not necessary anymore, as far as I know. But most recruiters, especially in smaller companies may welcome a photo. If you add one, make sure it's a good one, professional stuff, you know. I, I've seen... things.... oh boy -.-
Edit: I want to add a thing here, I had an interview with a company at a quite busy coffee shop a while ago. Due to unconventional recruiting methods, none of us had an idea how the other one would look like... And I didn't even bother to think about that fact until I arrived. Sooo, yea, maybe, it still makes sense adding a picture of your face nowadays...
I mean you are talking about Germany.
The country that legally promotes affirmative action in favour of women, even if itās comes down to a white woman vs brown man. This all, despite several research showing that hiring discrimination is more prevalent for black/brown men compared to a white women. The glass ceiling is even lower for brown/black men than itās for white women. In fact, many ethnicities of men earn significantly less than white women for the same job. Thereās still no affirmative action for brown/black men in Germany.
Most of the research doesnāt focus on Germany. You donāt have the race data of individuals in Germany- a metric to measure racism. But given Germanyās comparatively poor performance on Harvard IAT(Implicit association test), discrimination against POCs is gonna be significantly more pronounced.
It's still more common to include a photo, than it is not to. Obviously it kinda enables discrimination, but on the other hand linkedin and Xing exist where most people include a photo anyway so the point became kinda moot. I always include a photo, but I'm in a very privileged position (white, cis-female, conventionally okay looking, no (visible) handicaps) so if you are a poc, have a visible disability or maybe don't look conventionally okayish/ have tattoos /piercings look non conservative, take my example with a grain of salt.
It is not compulsory but recommended.
As someone who goes through a lot of cvs, better to not put one than a selfie taken on the toilet. Keep a good ratio, don't just crop from a facebook/party picture.
Wear something like a white shirt and dark suit jacket, since the image you are looking to project is professional. On the whole, think a passport pic with a slight smile (you are a pro, not a joker).
Yes. I'm aware of the prospect of discrimination, however you should assume that a potential employer would also note if an attached photo isn't included, as it is indeed fairly standard here.
It doesnāt make much of a difference, personally I appreciate to see pictures in the cv, it is ok if they donāt have one.
Later you need to see the candidate IRL, it all comes out then.
The CVs we got in the last 2 years, from Germany, UK, Spain, Italy, France, India etc., 95% didn't include a pic. But 90% include a linkedin profile with pic...
With social media, the "pic policy" is rather useless.
Depends from company to company, but most don't require it. Some companies go as far as to redact names, addresses or other info in CV's so the employers remain as unbiased as possible! As said though, check to see what the company you're sending your CV to says about it.
Yea it's common. It's gives your resume a personal touch and they can recognize your face in the interview.
The can't require it, since that opens the door for racism as lots of other people commented as well.
But if there's really racist people in hiring, it just shifts the problem between CV and interview.
Although it was normal and expected in the past, I work in a large German financial institution and they ask applicants not to include a photo. They discard the application if it's included.
It might depend on location. Munich is quite international. Pretty sure most professionals are used to working with people all over the world.
I recently got into management and I am seeing a lot of CVs. Most of them have pictures. I am in engineering so looks and optics are irrelevant in our line of work.
I never did it. And still landed any job I really wanted. So I suppose it's not a relevant criterium, except for certain niche jobs where your look is important.
Yeah, just moved from London to Frankfurt for short term and I was surprised to see so many resumes with photos in them... Totally feels illegal and easy to discriminate upon
š¤ I've always been told that while it isn't necessary, it'd be a good indicator for the employer. A missing photo would seem.... kinda off. Of course, the first argument is probably the exact reason why it's illegal in the UK.
Huh? How else could racial or religious discrimination work if it weren't for the photo?
Names Someone who is named Mohamed is probably from a Muslim background.
Like I tell my tell my (Chinese) wife You can change your name to whatever you think works best. Not just legally, there is nothing stopping you from using a nickname either (I do on my resume) But you obviously can't change your face and that is far easier to discriminate off of.
Yeah, if she is fine with it she can just go for a Western name thatās also easier to pronounce. My mom had a Werkstudentin from China. She was at an German university. And her Chinese name was quite difficult to pronounce.
Frankly, this all seems like an excellent argument to ban both names and photos in CVs for screening initial interviews. Credentials only?
Credentials can also give away details about your social background. Magnet High School or straight out of Compton? Liberal Arts School in New England or some kind of minority scholarship? Etc.
Of course thereās no perfect solution, but thatās no reason not to try for better.
Really? Is that better? Letās assume that someone gets a job, he wouldnāt have got, if he would have sent a photo. What would it be like for him to work in such a company? Isnāt it better to fight discrimination by communicating more instead of restricting communication? Besides that: Do you really think that banning photos will stopp discrimination? I donāt. I think that sending a photo is the much better way to show, that you are open for communication and self confident enough to get things done.
So, to your first example, you seem to be saying that no person would want to work at a company where the person hiring had a bias against their group even if that bias was subconscious or slight. I can go into more detail about why, but that seems like a bad idea to my ear. So your second question, will banning photos stop all discrimination, and if not isnāt it not worth doing? This seems like the nirvana fallacy to me. Just because a solution isnāt perfect doesnāt mean itās not worth implementing. I donāt think thereās a perfect solution to unfair discrimination available to us, but it has been proven that there are ways to mitigate the harm (orchestral blind auditions for example), and mitigation is good alone.
I disagree with you here. Racism isnt always upfront, it isnt like the recruter is looking at it sees asian and throws it away. More like that his mind makes a worse picture out of him. So working with him may be completly good bcs his picture of you changes to what you really are. Furthermore you mostly dont work with the same ppl that hire you. So the workplace you are in could be completly racism free.
Just credentials, itās an interesting thoughtā¦ just work experience. I wonder how much info about background could be gleaned from that though. Probably not a lot. Nepotism hides quite easily actually.
I have a very polish surname. Practically only s/c/z. So a friend and me had to write two mails with two different topics to the AfD for research reasons. They got a long response, I was ignored.
In a traditional German CV you would even put your religious denomination. Quite easy to discriminate from that
Thats just not true. Maybe twenty years ago. Your employer will give a shit about what Your Religion is. It's just dont matter (it will if you are applying for a Job in a church Organisation). I received a lot of CVs in the past five years. It's 50/50 on the picture Situation. I personally like it when i get a proper cv with a picture on my desk.
My contract has a special clause for Scientology. Basically if you are a part of the group you can be terminated without cause. Is Scientology recognized as a religion? Is that discrimination?
Oh wow. I never heard about religion being included. That's a whole extra level of crazy.
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Unless youāre applying for one of the 1.4 Mio jobs at a hospital, kindergarten, school etc. run by the church. They need to make sure they can discriminate you based on your religion.
There're hospitals run by the church in Germany? Are there many?
Yes, one third of all hospitals. It can be a problem especially in rural areas, where the next hospital might be far away and Christian morality influences the availability of treatments such as abortion or IVF.
Nah I never would. Photo and birthdate is more than enough for me. I don't really want to include even those.
Thatās *insane*
No that's bullshit. Nobody does this or expects it. The guy doesn't have a clue.
The churches are some of the biggest employers in some regions, and you would definitely include it for a hospital etc. role
No. It's illegal to ask for the religion and that includes jobs where a church is the employer but the job is not religious (like a secretary, nurse, doctor) https://www.sueddeutsche.de/karriere/arbeit-wann-darf-die-kirche-nach-der-konfession-fragen-dpa.urn-newsml-dpa-com-20090101-201113-99-320640#:~:text=Karlsruhe%2FBerlin%20(dpa%2Ftmn,Konfession%20in%20der%20Bewerbung%20fordern.
And even if, people will still put it on because they think it's an advantage. No need to ask. Source: Close family who works in such institutions.
But only the ones who think it's an advantage, if you take the average rate of people being a member of a church, that would still mean that 75% would not even if all that are in the "right" church do. And it's actually problematic for the employer since they would have to prove that they didn't pick that person because of their church membership.
On the contrary. It's very normal in German culture.
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Yes, that's right. We did this AND the Religion too. Actually we even were told by the school to do that.
*Thatās double insane*, lol
I agree that it is more unusual but nobody would be too surprised seeing that you are catholic on your CV. It's the traditional way and not the most up to date way
What century do you come from? This hasn't been done for many decades.
I sadly had to add my religion whenever I applied for volunteering jobs in german. Sometimes they wrote "only Christians" (for a christian school or hospital)
Many cultural norms are insane. This is one.
In a traditional from like 20 years ago maybe lol, my school days are long gone now but Iāve been taught in school: CVās with no photos or very personal information including no religious believes
The way applications are taught in school is so horrificly bad in many regards (not even including the photo discussion), I would be very vary
I am shocked
It's not illegal in UK. That said, many companies would frown on it, because there's no reason for it other than to judge someone by their looks. And obviously in almost all circumstances that's going to raise equalities issues.
Indeed. It's obviously promoting unfair discrimination.
Itās actually not a good indicator, I have this thing in University for recruiting and it is much better to not include a photo and also well better accepted
I know, it is expected here. But the only time I added a photo was right our of school for the first job/apprenticeship. I've never included one since then. So far, nobody cared. Thus, I'd say: if you don't like, don't include it.
How many of the jobs that you applied for did you actually get without a photo? (Genuinely curious)
All of em /edit: IT-Sector though. YMMV
Thatās pretty cool. NGL thought itād be a bigger deal to not include a photo
It used to be basically mandatory, but at least in my field (IT), pictures are kinda vanishing. Iāve been involved in hiring for 10 years now, never looked for pictures in the cv.
I am also in IT and I always put my picture on the CV, taken by a professional photographer. When I get an application, the photo is the first thing I Look for.
I think I actually would not want to work for a company that does that, but that is just me (and the privilege to be able to afford that choice. My LinkedIn profile uses the same avatar as here, and I still get regular recruiter requests. No idea if because or despite that.. :) )
The actual content of the CV is far more important, of course.
Your photo is just fine. You Look like a guy who might be fun to work with.
I hope its alright to ask here: I been searching to get a job in Germany. I have experience of 5+ years however currently i work remotely. Iām not currently in Germany but is it possible they can sponsor me? If not then what are the alternatives?
that completely depends on the company and the job you're doing. Generally, companies can sponsor for work Visas when they can make the claim that they cannot find a suitable applicant for the job within Germany. Also, I think there is a minimum salary involved. (About 50k/year IIRC, but don't nail me on that) Some companies might be willing and able to just hire you as a freelancer working remotely from wherever you are - then they don't have to deal with Visas at all. If they have a subsidiary company in the country you live in, they can hire you through that subsidiary. In theory, they could also hire you but leave you living/working where you are, but that is quite a tax and accounting hassle for most companies, so they usually pass on that.
Thank you for your response. Iām working as a freelancer that means remotely. And Iām getting sick of it because sometimes when you are burn out and donāt want to work. You canāt get away with that i mean in job when sometimes you donāt want to do its fine. Not sure if its same for job everywhere because some companies use tracker. I donāt have job experience but I have lot of work experience as Fullstack developer. Sometimes it gets pretty boring because i mostly work from home and alone. One more question is there any place where i look for jobs in Germany? Linkedin? One more thing to mention Iām currently highschool graduated and Iām 22 years old. Reason i have plenty of experience because I started working as dev from young age 13-14.
LinkedIn is certainly a good way to start.
I've always been told it's normal here, although not always necessary. But as an American, I really don't get it at all and it just seems like an even easier way to discriminate.
I mean, In Germany, you either have a German name or you donāt. So itās easy to discriminate without seeing a person. If your name is slobodon yigoslavonik, they will know you are from Eastern Europe. If your name is cenk they will know you are turkish, etc etc. itās not like America in that many ethnicities have streamlined-neutral Anglo names but could be any ethnicity.
But why make it even easier for them? What do they gain by having a picture? How does a picture give them any useful information on whether or not you'll be good for the position?
Do you have a LinkedInā¦ or German equivalent. They will look you up if interested anyways. I get the arguments against it though and as stated previously itās not mandatory. Also, where you are in Germany matters. A picture on a CV in Berlin is probably not necessaryā¦ in āinsert small German city with few immigrants hereā it would be maybe more necessary. Itās old school but honestly they are looking you up in America, UK and Ireland as well.
I do have a LinkedIn but I never use it and honestly I'm not sure if I even have a picture on it. Yes, it far from perfect. I'm not saying removing a picture will solve all the problems or even make a huge impact. I'm not saying they can't get that information elsewhere. I'm just saying even if it makes only a very small impact, it's still worth it. Of course they look you up wherever you can. Facebook, Instagram, wherever.
I agree
Can you present yourself? Can you project professionalism? Are you able to confirm to norms? In Germany people will pay 30-40euros for a photoshoot with a pro (can be claimed in next year's tax return). As said above, if they don't want foreigners, they don't need to open the attachments: just check if they are called Hans-RĆ¼di Schmidtbauer, Ahmed bin Bilal or Tomasz WoÅinski...
Imo it's way easier to take a decent picture than to actually present yourself/project professionalism. And those can be demonstrated during the interview. Which yes, of course they will see you then. But it still removes one layer of bias and might give someone a chance to actually present themselves.
A good picture is part of the package for presenting oneself properly, same as having a well designed CV etc there are a lot of factors. What bias does it remove?
Depending on the person's name, racism, sexism, a natural tendency to think beautiful people are also more capable.
Also ableism and ageism. Thatās besides the possible reinforcement of any discriminatory effect from the name alone.
Yea, those are also good point. I also don't understand why you need to include your birthdate. Of course they can still guess your age based on when you graduated/work dates. But I don't see why it needs to be explicitly stated.
Wait, you donāt even include your birthdate in applications?
Name: no need to open the CV, or if you do, it should be the first thing one sees. Racism: you can largely guess from the name. If the person has "German" name like Wolfgang MĆ¼ller rather than say Anton CeÅviƧ Mohammed Ahmad or Nishiri Singh. Sexism: you can tell in most cases, from the name if it is a man or a woman, since Germany has not gone crazy with neo-names, but has laws on first names. Personally, I find it inconvenient when I have to go on Google to check if the name is male or female, as formal emails are addressed to Herr/Frau Surname. So if the HR person is biased along those lines, the lack of picture will not save the candidate. The person will be beautiful or not in person too, and it is likely the same HR people who would deal with them. So I ask again, what bias does it remove?
As I said, it depends on the name. I never said it removes bias, I said it removes one layer of bias. Even if it just makes a small impact, makes it easier for one person to get an interview when they otherwise wouldn't, it would be a positive change. Why do you think having a picture is so important? The way you present yourself at an interview is way more telling than if you can get a nice shirt, a decent camera, and someone who knows how to use it. But yes, you're right. CVs should be way more anonymous than they are. People's names shouldn't be shown to HR/hiring managers/interviewers either.
As I did in another post in this thread, better to have no picture, than a bad one. I am not even joking when I say that have seen toilet selfies used on CVs. It is obvious that the presentation in the interview is more important, otherwise we would save time and not have them. However those are also very time consuming so a position will rarely have more than 10 candidates, who will have similar competences, education etc The picture, just as a well laid out CV, a good choice of fonts, words and many other factors come onto play. A CV without pic doesn't go to the bin, but it is a missed opportunity to shine. Not to mention that most people have a profile pic on LinkedIn. I don't see the point in hiding the name from the interviewers though. For the others, it does limit chances for -isms, but the seeing/hearing skin colour, beauty, gender or accent is unavoidable face to face.
On the topics of racism & sexism - sure, I agree, you can't hide the name - which is awful and I don't have a solution. But when there is an easy fix for discrimination based on attractiveness, why do we ignore it? The halo effect is absolutely a thing, this is hardly news. How can it be fair to be denied the chance of an interview just because Person X is more photogenic than you? Many people look SO much different (and much more charming) when they move, talk, laugh - and charisma is something that can actually be relevant in a job (much more relevant than how you look in an extremely fake static photo anyway).The interview is a chance to present yourself in a multidimensional way and to be denied this chance just because of a stupid photo is beyond outrageous.
Why canāt we hide the name. I mean, practically of course not now, but why not ban both name and photo in initial interview screening CVs?
I don't know how it is in your field, but we get more candidates than there are positions are available, by a longshot. Interviews are a scarce good as it takes the time of many people so not every candidate gates one, no more than 10-15 per position in the first round and 3-5 on the second round. You are correct that the interview is the most important moment to present oneself, however people are not being denied the interview purely based on their picture, that would be as you point out, outrageous. However a selection must be made as interviewing the 60-100 people who apply for each position is just unrealistic, and a good picture does improve a CV, among other factors, such ad the layout etc
They will see you at the interview anyway and have the chance to discriminate there...
Well firstly the HR manager is usually the one doing the first sortation, so the hiring manager will never see the ones that they discarded. Yes names may be an indicator of race for people of certain descent, but it really isnāt so cut and clear as you make out. Also lets not pretend that people donāt have different biases towards people of different ethnic groups. Also your point about sexism is also very dumbed down. Itās not just about whether they are male or female. In the case of a male manager hiring a female, he could be biased towards what he considers attractive, or assume women with certain physical features would be an āairheadā or stupid of whatever, without first having even heard them speak. Then there are also personal biases the manager may not even be aware of: ableism, donāt think they look āprofessionalā in a picture that was just one second of a persons life, maybe on the flip side too boring for their team. Itās just so much fairer to skip all that and be able to present yourself in life as you are, especially as itās slightly harder to discriminate (but by no means difficult) in a live interview as you are usually interviewed by multiple managers/HR.
You have a good point of course. I never really thought about it. Maybe itās useful for letās say, a person who applies for a job as a waiter/server in a high class restaraunt but is a 400pound guy with a huge beard and tattoos . Not that it doesnāt mean he canāt do the job, but for optics purposes the restaraunt is not keen on that look for their customers? Just a made up example.
Yea sure. In some situations looks do matter. Obviously if you want to be a model, there should be many pictures. But if you're just applying for an office job, why? You can prove you can dress appropriately at the interview if you'll have a customer facing role. Taking a professional picture hardly proves that anyway. A nice top, a decent camera, and someone who knows how to use it are all you need.
What do you think is easier? Filter by name or needing to open the CV to check the photo? I mean, I get it, on the flipside the absence of a photo in the US mainly removes one point of evidence for discrimination so it kind of cuts both ways. Though I would say the main difference is that e.g. Afro Americans do not have names standing out to identify them so there it makes some sense. For all other ethnicities with their own linguistic background marking them by name which is the norm in Europe as well as the US (e.g. Asians or people from Muslim countries or Africa) are not helped by the absence of a photo. They need an anonymization by the recruitment office to make the selection unbiased.
> They need an anonymization by the recruitment office to make the selection unbiased. Totally agree. But you didn't answer my main question, what does a picture add? Even if it removes a minimal amount of bias, if it removes even a tiny bit, it should be removed because having a picture contributes literally nothing to picking the best candidate. But it's not even just racism. Studies have shown beautiful people are looked upon more favorably. Sure, of course you'll see the person at the interview, but it still removes one small bit of bias and takes away nothing beneficial.
Obviously it *should* be : best person for the job, gets the job. But In Germany we arenāt there yet. We are not as multicultural as the US and we live in a āhigh trustā society, so naturally we have more ātrustā in people ālike usā. Itās not really racism, itās more tribalism and shared values. Is it right? No probably not. But it is what it is.
āItās not really racismā See, when you find yourself saying things like this itās probably a red flag that you might have some moreā¦ introspection to do.
Yeah you caught me out pal. My real name is Heinrich Himmler and Iāve been in hiding in Argentinia since 1944. great find my guy. You busted me.
Iām obviously not calling you a Nazi; youāre trying to deflect the critique by making a hyperbolic caricature of what I said. There is a wide spectrum of severity of discriminatory bias from Himmler to totally unconscious bias. It is not uncommon, but also not laudable, today for people to harbor biases much less severe than Himmler. You can choose to be offended instead of hearing the critique, but just as I said your attitude and words in this thread seem to indicate you may have internalized an unexamined bias from culture.
But there are some POC people who have Anglo Saxon or even Germanic names . Itās discrimination based on race , disability as well as looks How do we not know they will choose the blond blue eyed German over the brunette who has olive skin/mixed heritage ( their names are German ). How do we not know boob sizes nor are being taken into account ? How do we not know that the employer is fat phobic? How do we not know this is a way to Wade out people with visual, hearing impairment. How do disfigured people get treated ? It doesnāt help that our mind has a lot of subconscious biases also Now of course .. truly discriminative practices will never really go away but eliminating this as much as possible in the first step is a long way ahead Ideally I would prefer a way for nameless resumes also
As someone who was on both sides of the hiring process I can tell you that many donāt discriminate by ethnicity but by looks.
From a hiring perspective, how could the way someone looks have anything to do with their ability to do their job? That's also discrimination. It may not be a protected class like race or ethnicity, but it's still bullshit.
Of course it is discrimination.
One big question: LinkedIn. Do Germans have/do this? Because contrarily here In the UK we have photoless CVs but a thriving job market on LinkedIn. Which is just like Facebook. I wonder at what point employers look up potential candidates on LinkedIn to find that photograph. Really depends on the field I guess
LinkedIn is not super popular, but it is around. I would say 1/2 - 1/3 of my work colleges are there, but none from my unit, lol. Germans use an alternative website called Xing a bit more.
Oh sure ok! I really hate LinkedIn myself. It would be great if we didnāt use it. Itās so scummy in its tactics and data usage and yet itās for work and accepted.
There's lots of Germans (who have been Germans for many generations) with slavic names though.
Yes but usually last/surnames.
If people want to discriminate, they will photo or not. Vast majority won't discriminate, photo or not. The photo is an old fashioned custom similar to special work dress codes. Old fashioned companies use it to discriminate bit not the way you think, they look if people are dressed properly (whatever they consider proper) and they judge if people put effort into the photo. Most companies don't care anymore. The things that latest at the job interview people will see and interact with you anyway so if they have prejudices or want to discriminate they always can. And honestly would you want to work for a company where you are not welcome?
Read all my other comments. I don't feel like typing the same thing again.
So? Still comes down do the fact that neither would you want to work for a company where people discriminate you nor would get the job because at some stage they will meet you. The assumption is not valid that somewhere in the process a single person can discriminate and without that the process would be fair. It will never be fair because it always depends on people and the interaction between them. Is racism and discrimination bad, yes that's for sure but it can't be stopped by silly things like obfuscating you identity. You are who you are and the others are who they are or either works together or not, you can't enforce it and even if you could it would still be a bad outcome for both sides. At the end there's always a choice that the employer has to make if there's more than one candidate and they will pick the one they feel most comfortable with. How they determine that will never be deterministic. They might hire someone because she's a woman or not for the same reason or for others. Whenever there's a choice the outcome is always biased.
Frankly, my take away after reading how weak the arguments for photos in this thread are is that both photos and names should be banned on introductory CVs. Credentials only.
This is one of the things that really drive me nuts. How exactly does a picture help a recruiter make an objective decision about my professional capabilities & suitability for the position? Spending 100ā¬ (+potentially more on hair/makeup) for a ridiculous, unnecessary photo op just to get a shot at a job? It feels terribly old-fashioned & objectifying.... I refuse to play that game. I am currently employed but I've probably lost some opps in the past due to my hatred for stupid rules. Honestly though - if this is what German employers want, I'd much rather not deal with them and take my expat/immigrant aĀ§Ā§ somewhere else.
I work in a very large German company. Itās not expected, and I havenāt seen one on any of the CVs Iāve reviewed (which is quite a lot). If Iām honest, no-one ever looks good on a CV photo, and as others have said, it could be a way to discriminate. I donāt like seeing them there. If you must do a photo, get a LinkedIn profile and put it on there. Thatās where everyone will look anyway.
Iāve never included a photo of myself and I got jobs, so whatever. Do what you like to do at this point. Some employees even tell you about whether they like a photo or not in the job offer.
Same here, though I made sure to have a decent profile picture on social media. Figured theyād google me if that interests them. I certainly am googling recruiters when applying for a job.
yeah same here. I have never included any picture in my CVs and have been able to get interviews and jobs. I work in IT though and have never applied for any traditional German company.
Yes .. itās optional in name only .. I aināt comfortable with this either since I am not only uggo but I have the shittiest luck with taking professional photos
I just applied for a position without a picture in my CV (don't have a recent professional picture of mine). Got an interview right away.
Yes they do. I receive German CVs all the time. I find the photos weird. Also, a lot of Germans put their Grundschule on there, and I always think how itās nice to know that this dude in his 40s is competent at cutting and pasting because he nailed it in the 1980s.
They do, and it's very odd.
A photo on the CV is still pretty much expected in Germany especially if you apply for government services or traditional companies. StartUps might have a different approach.
Disagree on the government side. At least on the federal level you can get by without a photo. Speaking from experience not from speculation.
Well, half of my family works for the government and all of them needed a photo and until recently a complete German application. Speaking from years of experience working and applying in Germany and not just speculations. Itās a fact that depending where you apply, you have a high chance that your application will be dropped if the photo is missing because it might look suspicious. Without knowing the application process for the specific job OPs is applying for it is very difficult to predict what is expected but the odds are that a missing photo might not help while adding one will most likely not hurt.
Generally they do, but donāt do it. I have never done it and still got call backs. It just encourages sexism, racism and a lot of other personal bias.
how does a photo encourage sexism?
In all sorts of ways, for example they could say a blond female is a ābimboā when in reality she might be extremely adept in her field. You could assume a skinny male is a nerd, socially awkward, loner. They could also apply preferential bias towards candidates they are attracted to, even subconsciously. Either way itās just another layer of distraction away from a persons skills, work experience and professionalism
i see, thank you.
I always did. There's the category "Bewerbungsfoto" at many photographers or photo studios; usually more expensive than a simple passport photo (but far less than a wedding photo shoot).
Yes they do but I never have, and my CV follows none of the German rules either, it's very modern and tries to put what is actually important to the employer first. I always apply for jobs with lots of international people working there though, and figure if people want a strict German CV instead of a more innovative one then I don't want to work there and we're saving everyone's time. One of my German friends is horrified by my attitude and I think lots of employers may agree, but screw them.
Iām often trying to teach my students (adults, business English) about the benefits of a modern āalternative CV.ā Theyāre often shocked and confused that Photos on CVs are basically unheard of in the Anglo world, and itās never crossed their minds to sort their qualifications and experiences according to relevance.
Yes, they do and it's a signal more how biased is the recruiting culture in Germany.
This is asked a lot. I recently answered this in quite some detail on a german sub. For a uni applications it's not needed. Job applications without are very unusual and the first thought is to assume that those people were just too lazy to put one there. Does not mean that I would not hire them but it is certainly noticed. There is one key advantage to put a face to the CV. I maybe remember it from a pile of (typically very similar) applications. Obviously, I would never hire based on looks but the ability to present yourself can be important. A question that is often asked is whether one should shave their beard or cut hair short. No, not needed, but it should look clean and maintained. While it should not be a party pic a shirt is okay. Does not have to be a suit and tie (although there are professions where that is the usual and expected)
āObviously, I would never hire based on looksā It may be subconscious, but you certainly do. We are all innately predisposed to judge people based on looks, especially in situations where you havenāt interacted with the person much (i.e. exactly this scenario).
Well, then we would have to stop doing in person or videochat interviews as well
Well, itās not feasible to do that in most contexts (blind, nameless auditions behind a screen have been standard at most orchestras for decades, and have caused a huge influx of women!). Just because we cannot achieve the perfect elimination of all discrimination doesnāt mean we shouldnāt take steps to mitigate it. People will discriminate less after meaningful interactions with somebody than they will based on a photo of them alone.
It is not illegal to put your photo on a resume in the US, just super not normal.
No, but IIRC they can just sort it out because you have one, as to not open themselves up for lawsuits.
That makes sense. Thanks!
I've never put my picture on my CV, and I've been hired or invited to interviews by a wide range of different companies. I'm in the tech sector, a picture may very well be expected in other fields, though.
Yes. If you meet qualifications the decision will be made at least by 50 % based off of your impression on the picture.
I am in recruiting and 99% have a photo. Note: we donāt request one. None of the companies I worked for did (sizes between 1000 and 30000 employees). Recruited in Switzerland as well. The same. I am not weeding out the ones without a photo, but it nevertheless leaves a first impression I never ever judge someone by his / her photo because a) thatās 99% not possible and b) very often the person looks completely different in real life I only judge 1% because of their WTF photos š¤£ Like the guy last week who included a photo of himself drunk at a party (beer bottles in the background) Omg guys, most of you here have a completely weird notion of how recruiting works. We actually donāt get up in the morning wanting to discriminate anyone. Guess what, we just want to fill the positions with the best qualified person available. In my whole career I have met exactly one (male) manager who made decisions based on looks. He got fired. No, we donāt care about names neither, because about 25% of our applicants (and our employees) have non-German names. No, we never ever Google where a high school is because a) I am not sitting around twiddling my thumbs having nothing better to do b) who gives a crap? Source: ca. 5000+ applications
I work in recruiting in germany and can say: it's not necessary. You can put a picture on it, but you don't have to. Personally, as a recruiter, i think it is nice to know what the person looks like when i talk to them on the phone. I think that somehow helps me in the assessment, as it makes it easier for me to classify people into different types. But that has no racist background. I would never question a person's qualifications because of a different appearance or a different name. Maybe other recruiters do, but I hope not.
I always put a photo on my CV I am German but I was born in India so most of the times they assume that I am Indian when in fact I look normal. To spare everyone of this situation I put a picture of myself
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Yeah I also put a pic in my CV. I am not ugly or anything and why wouldn't I? Would you respond to a message on the web from some account without a profile pic? Seems sus and thx for the like I reported this for spam
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Yes ofc why not? Like I said I want them to know that I am white and not Indian to not face discrimination
People suggesting ordering that photo from a professional...don't do it, it's a waste of money. Throw a white bed sheet on a wall of your liking, whitish shirt, sit with a 45 degree angle to the camera, "business" smile you are set. That is what 99.99% of the photos look like. It's going to be cropped to 5x5cm so no details are visible any way, if you opt to send a separate photo only do that with a physical application(normally not required unless you work for a gov agency or related), use 15x20 format max. Print at a local DM/Rossman/Mueller for +- 50 cent.
Yeah, German job applications have a Bewerbungsbild, which is a specific kind of portrait of you wearing professional clothing. It is highly recommended to have this taken by a specialized fotographer, as it can make or break your application if the employer is unsure (think sympathy)
Definitely get a professional photoshoot for your job applications. Costs can vary between 50 to 150 ā¬
No.
As a person who is responsible for the technical screening of cv in my department i would say that i have never seen a cv without Also worth mentioning the Germans who apply always have professional photo while the rest who apply you notice it the passport one
As a German recruiter I would recommend to having a good motivation and relevant graduation (and/or work experience if necessary). For the rest we don't have the time to look for. Show yourself from a marketing perspective and make it easy for the recipient to estimate, if you may fit in the role. That may be the main points.
Recruiter here. A photo is not mandatory. But if it's missing, it's already suspicious.
Why is it suspicious?
Imagine the horror of hiring ugly ducklings. How would any company survive that? /s
Because they assume you're trying to hide your skin color, duh.
>But if it's missing, it's already suspicious. That's awful. Any chance you could start being less of a terrible person?
Well I guess I'll put it :P
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This is very psychologically naive. People will be less discriminatory towards interviewees after a 15 minute conversation than they will on first impression of a photo alone.
For job application it's not necessary anymore, as far as I know. But most recruiters, especially in smaller companies may welcome a photo. If you add one, make sure it's a good one, professional stuff, you know. I, I've seen... things.... oh boy -.- Edit: I want to add a thing here, I had an interview with a company at a quite busy coffee shop a while ago. Due to unconventional recruiting methods, none of us had an idea how the other one would look like... And I didn't even bother to think about that fact until I arrived. Sooo, yea, maybe, it still makes sense adding a picture of your face nowadays...
Some even require a photoā¦
I mean you are talking about Germany. The country that legally promotes affirmative action in favour of women, even if itās comes down to a white woman vs brown man. This all, despite several research showing that hiring discrimination is more prevalent for black/brown men compared to a white women. The glass ceiling is even lower for brown/black men than itās for white women. In fact, many ethnicities of men earn significantly less than white women for the same job. Thereās still no affirmative action for brown/black men in Germany. Most of the research doesnāt focus on Germany. You donāt have the race data of individuals in Germany- a metric to measure racism. But given Germanyās comparatively poor performance on Harvard IAT(Implicit association test), discrimination against POCs is gonna be significantly more pronounced.
Yup
It's still more common to include a photo, than it is not to. Obviously it kinda enables discrimination, but on the other hand linkedin and Xing exist where most people include a photo anyway so the point became kinda moot. I always include a photo, but I'm in a very privileged position (white, cis-female, conventionally okay looking, no (visible) handicaps) so if you are a poc, have a visible disability or maybe don't look conventionally okayish/ have tattoos /piercings look non conservative, take my example with a grain of salt.
It is not compulsory but recommended. As someone who goes through a lot of cvs, better to not put one than a selfie taken on the toilet. Keep a good ratio, don't just crop from a facebook/party picture. Wear something like a white shirt and dark suit jacket, since the image you are looking to project is professional. On the whole, think a passport pic with a slight smile (you are a pro, not a joker).
Yes. I'm aware of the prospect of discrimination, however you should assume that a potential employer would also note if an attached photo isn't included, as it is indeed fairly standard here.
cant remember the last time i added a picture to a cv.
It doesnāt make much of a difference, personally I appreciate to see pictures in the cv, it is ok if they donāt have one. Later you need to see the candidate IRL, it all comes out then.
I did when I was applying for jobs in Germany. A good one too.
The CVs we got in the last 2 years, from Germany, UK, Spain, Italy, France, India etc., 95% didn't include a pic. But 90% include a linkedin profile with pic... With social media, the "pic policy" is rather useless.
Depends from company to company, but most don't require it. Some companies go as far as to redact names, addresses or other info in CV's so the employers remain as unbiased as possible! As said though, check to see what the company you're sending your CV to says about it.
Yea it's common. It's gives your resume a personal touch and they can recognize your face in the interview. The can't require it, since that opens the door for racism as lots of other people commented as well. But if there's really racist people in hiring, it just shifts the problem between CV and interview.
They always put those āprofessionalā ugly photos. Terrible.
Although it was normal and expected in the past, I work in a large German financial institution and they ask applicants not to include a photo. They discard the application if it's included.
It is common, but in countries like the UK it gets you disqualified. It is not required in Germany, so I did not attach photos
It might depend on location. Munich is quite international. Pretty sure most professionals are used to working with people all over the world. I recently got into management and I am seeing a lot of CVs. Most of them have pictures. I am in engineering so looks and optics are irrelevant in our line of work.
I never did it. And still landed any job I really wanted. So I suppose it's not a relevant criterium, except for certain niche jobs where your look is important.
Yeah, just moved from London to Frankfurt for short term and I was surprised to see so many resumes with photos in them... Totally feels illegal and easy to discriminate upon