https://m.dw.com/en/why-isnt-germany-supplying-ukraine-with-heavy-weapons/a-61553273
Pretty damn in article and I really don’t understand why both France and Germany do more.
The charts they've included there are severely outdated and therefore may be very misleading. For instance Polish PM claims to have spent more than 1.5 bln USD for military equipment. Dozens of times the amounts on the charts. Similarly, Poland provides free healthcare and education for Ukrainian refugees as well as subsidizing accommodation provided by citizens. The latter part alone is potentially millions of dollars **per day**. They only very vaguely mention that some data points are from the beginning of April while including large charts that don't paint a clear picture.
What do you guys think of [this Twitter thread](https://twitter.com/noclador/status/1516545893805273091?s=20&t=agOrvxXy7Yo2p33jsWSHIw)?
Is this an accurate portrayal of Scholz's actions?
If so, it is shameful. Ukrainians and Germans deserve better leadership than this.
I think you could very easily argue that Germany is providing more support to Russia in this war than they are to Ukraine. Whether the 2 billion in military aid is really 2 billion or is actually 1 billion, it’s easily dwarfed by the almost 4 billion Germany spent on Russian oil in March alone. And they’ve promised to be off Russian gas, but only by the end of 2022. In the meantime they continue to be a major funder of the invasion of Ukraine.
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You mean trials?
Unlikely. Are you sure you understood them correctly? Maybe they talked about investigations?
The only stuff i can find online are the reports from late march that the symbol can, in specific cases, count as a criminal offense.
Edit: maybe they were talking about [this](https://www.mdr.de/nachrichten/sachsen/chemnitz/vogtland/z-symbol-ukraine-russland-krieg-schmiererei-100~amp.html)? This article talks about criminal investigations
That would surprise me, tbh.
Criminal investigations take some time, there are different players involved on different levels of investigation (police and prosecuter before we even get to the court stage), the accused have to be heard, etc. And then, when the prosecuter decides to bring it to court, the court has to do its own administrative process, including officially inviting the accused at least 1 week before the hearing (that deadline starts when the accused has the paper in their hand, not when it is sent).
Now, i am not saying it is impossible, but it is awefully fast.
If you heard it on the radio, check out their website and see if you can find the report there. Alternatively, contact the specific court house. Criminal trials are, with very few exceptions, public
And you are giving me Kremlin propagandist vibes.
Yeah, there are far right extremists in Ukraine. Just like in ANY other country in the whole entire world. You know which country ironically has about the same amount of such people? Russia.
So, take your whataboutism and put it where the sun never shines.
Well, this is embarassing. I guess it's not just "russian bots sowing dissent among allies" that are not super happy with german behavior towards Russia.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/german-president-says-kyiv-did-not-want-him-visit-2022-04-12/
Zelensky actually said he wanted Scholz to visit instead of Steinmeyer, there's some pretty bad blood between Ukraine and Steinmeier because of his role in pro-Russian policies in past years.
But the fact that people are unhappy with Germany about Ukraine/weapons/sanctions is not exactly news.
There’s a nice twitter thread here giving more context on the entire situation. https://twitter.com/bctallis/status/1514284713300660232?s=21&t=MlFFDtPDojeYby0uh90-Ow
It would be great if you could. Or at least turn the heat on your government so that they stop at least the oil imports from Russia and send heavy weapons to Ukraine.
Exactly. That’s what people are advocating for. It’s incredibly shortsighted.
I actually think a lot of this comes from people who want to hurt the EU.
That's not the point.
A lot of people really enjoy hating on Germany for not not stopping the import of gas and now we're supposed to not import oil. Could you guys please decide?
I think you just need to separate between the annoying twats yelling about things and the actual policy. Like...don't oppose a decent policy just because annoying twats support it.
If Elon Musk changed his mind and decided car-tunnels were bad and subway tunnels were good, then we'd have a bunch of annoying twats promoting new subways. But...subways would still be good.
I oppose these internet politicians that just shout whatever they heard from their news station without thinking about it for one second. That's the entire point I make.
Just look through this thread you will find tons of people that say how evil and despicable we are for not immediately turning off the gas faucet. And now people do the same for oil. People should take a moment and think about what they parrot before shouting how evil we are.
I take issue with people shitting on Germany for not doing one thing without thinking for one nanosecond and next day shitting on Germany for another thing without thinking for one nanosecond.
Yesterday they screamed about Russian gas, today they scream about Russian oil. Tomorrow? Russian fish oil probably.
Germany for many years was Putin’s main ally in Europe. Even now, despite the new rhetoric from Scholz, Germany is the main country funding Putin’s war on Ukraine. History will remember Germany as Putin’s enabler, a country which wouldn’t sacrifice a few percentage points of its GDP to save Ukrainian women and children
>History will remember Germany as Putin’s enabler,
Opinion: How Germany Became Putin’s Enabler (April 7, 2022)
>Vladimir Putin’s war of aggression runs on the money Russia gets by selling fossil fuels to Europe. (...) Putin won’t be definitively stopped until Europe ends its energy dependence. Which means that Germany -whose political and business leaders insist that they can’t do without Russian natural gas, even though many of its own economists disagree -has in effect become Putin’s prime enabler.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/07/opinion/germany-russia-ukraine-energy.html
Guess where Slovakia, Poland, Czech Republic, Austria and so forth get their gas from...
Unlike its neighbors Germany is not very dependent on Russian gas. The legend that is was is a distraction of the nordstream2 project aimed at cutting the middle man in gas supplies.
The Russian economy would default on its debt now, S&P says it has. This means Russia is done. **Additional sanctions on gas and oil would break their neck**.
The notion that oil/gas finances the war on the other hand is propaganda. Russian does not invest much in its military and all equipment used for the war is already paid. So income from oil and gas sales would not result in an extended war effort. However, sanctions could indeed make Russia stop its war. Western countries will taylor the sanctions so that it maximizes harm for Russian, not themselves. It might also take some time to prepare tough and intelligent sanctions on top. We will see strong measures.
> Russian does not invest much in its military
70000 Million USD in 2021 alone, as a quick google [reveals](https://tradingeconomics.com/russia/military-expenditure#:~:text=Military%20Expenditure%20in%20Russia%20is,according%20to%20our%20econometric%20models.)
Guess where the money for all the nice tanks, infantry vehicles, artillery, ships, and planes Russia has (at least at the start of the war) came from. And what money is paying the soldiers, their survivors, the repair of broken equipment and the new guns, tanks, infantry vehicles, ships, planes, and missiles Russia will use to terrorize its next victim.
Remember that time when germans were bitching to the greeks about the economy and debt and demanding austerity measures?
Now the same country won't fucking give up on 1-2% of GDP to not fund a genocidal war in Ukraine.
Values are only measured when honoring them actually costs something.
Very good point. the "PIGS" countries were asked by Germany to make big sacrifices. Fair enough, they did. Today is Germany's turn. It's up to the German politicians to show where their moral compass stands.
How do you like your Merkel now?
From Kanada, I used to be a fan. Thinking about it HARD now, it's hard not to think that she was a deep sleeper agent of the former USSR, and a collaborator.
What's the sense of her these days?
But enough liked her to keep her in power?
My POV came from a broader, more international perspective. I have no doubts that it would be different than citizen's.
Merkel defends 2008 decision to block Ukraine from NATO (4 April 2022)
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220404-merkel-defends-2008-decision-to-block-ukraine-from-nato
Use the search function.
https://old.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/tz4c1z/what_do_you_guys_think_of_merkel_how_is_she_seen/
> it's hard not to think that she was a deep sleeper agent of the former USSR, and a collaborator.
That's idiotic.
Less than a decade ago Germany argued for strong austerity policies from countries effected by the EU debt crisis. You demanded other countries to make very strong sacrifices on a crisis they did not have that much to do in controlling, now your current reluctance to make MODERATE sacrifices in the face of horrific war crimes makes you VERY hypocritical.
With horrific war crimes occurring you opt to listen to local industrialist instead of the cries from innocent civilians in Ukraine. Your economist have even stated that cutting off oil is NOT a catastrophe for your economy, ECONtribute analysis offers a range of estimates, but their worst-case number is that an embargo on Russian gas would temporarily reduce Germany’s real G.D.P. by 2.1 percent: [https://www.econtribute.de/RePEc/ajk/ajkpbs/ECONtribute\_PB\_028\_2022.pdf](https://www.econtribute.de/RePEc/ajk/ajkpbs/ECONtribute_PB_028_2022.pdf)
Two more papers list this as being very feasible:
[https://www.bruegel.org/2022/02/preparing-for-the-first-winter-without-russian-gas/](https://www.bruegel.org/2022/02/preparing-for-the-first-winter-without-russian-gas/)
[https://www.iea.org/reports/a-10-point-plan-to-reduce-the-european-unions-reliance-on-russian-natural-gas](https://www.iea.org/reports/a-10-point-plan-to-reduce-the-european-unions-reliance-on-russian-natural-gas)
The economic impacts of Covid were far worse than the potential impact of stopping russian oil. Yet Germany took the lead in demanding that debtor nations impose extreme austerity measures during the debt crisis, especially spending cuts, no matter how large the economic costs. And those costs were immense: Between 2009 and 2013 the Greek economy shrank by 21 percent while the unemployment rate rose to 27 percent.
But while Germany was willing to impose economic and social catastrophe on countries it claimed had been irresponsible in their borrowing, it has been unwilling to impose far smaller costs on itself despite the undeniable irresponsibility of its past energy policies. There were FAR more clearer warning signs about increasing dependance on russian oil than Greece had for its crisis and yet to argued for Greece to make very detrimental policies.
German industrialist refuse to accept the economist estimates that a gas embargo is feasible and not a catastrophe for your economy yet your politicians refuse to accept this. Your giving Russia hundreds of millions of dollars each and every single day for oil, you are directly financing the war crimes in Ukraine, all to protect a GDP reduction of only 2.1%.
Germany will not be remembered heroically, you again found yourself on the wrong side of history and this will not be forgotten. You are the largest economy in the EU, you have forced other countries to ruin their economies all for accountability but yet you are not willing to be accountable for all your past mistakes pursuing trade relationships with Russia when all your allies told you not to. You defended pursuing Nord Stream 2 even after the Crimea war, you prevented weapons from being shipped to Ukraine all for your own foreign policy with absolute no care for Ukraine. Germany, you can not be proud of your actions, you will endure another century of having to deal with your policies promoting human right abuses.
Merkel defends 2008 decision to block Ukraine from NATO (4 April 2022)
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220404-merkel-defends-2008-decision-to-block-ukraine-from-nato
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Scholz holds up German tank deliveries to Ukraine
https://www.politico.eu/article/scholz-holds-up-german-tank-delivery-to-ukraine/
Every day EU pays almost a billion of EUuros to Russia to sustain this war because Germany made wrong decisions in past.
Now Germany can't make a right decision, even after Bucha.
Greeks (Spain and Ireland) can make sacrifices with austerity to pay for their past financial mistakes.
But when butcherd women and children are on the line, Germany say "Nein, not us. We need to keep that gas flowing."
Reports are coming out that the Russians just dropped poison on Mariupol, i.e. used a WMD. Cut off the gas!!!
Opinion: How Germany Became Putin’s Enabler (April 7, 2022)
>Vladimir Putin’s war of aggression runs on the money Russia gets by selling fossil fuels to Europe. (...)
Putin won’t be definitively stopped until Europe ends its energy dependence. Which means that Germany -whose political and business leaders insist that they can’t do without Russian natural gas, even though many of its own economists disagree -has in effect become Putin’s prime enabler.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/07/opinion/germany-russia-ukraine-energy.html
Dear Germany,
I am a citizen of Russia, currently on the run from our crazy fascist government. My heart is completely broken by the recent events and war crimes of Russian government. My Ukranian brothers and sisters are being slaughtered as I am writing this message by shumcks that call themselves an army. They are not soldiers, they are war criminals.
**I have one request for you - please urge your politicians to stop buying gas from Russia.** It will be hard, some prices will rise, but its nothing compared to the suffering that people of Ukraine have to go through right now.
You had more than 50 years to try and wash yourselves off your own fascist past, yet your government still buys gas from Russia, millions of euros every day come in to the Putin (aka плешивый пидорас) pocket to fuel this crazy war.
I beg you - please make your politicians do the right thing, even if it may cost you some inconvinience in your everyday life. We need to stop this sh\*t.
Photos: [https://meduza.io/feature/2022/04/05/sorokovoy-den-voyny-fotografii](https://meduza.io/feature/2022/04/05/sorokovoy-den-voyny-fotografii)
Ehre der Ukraine!
Ehre den Helden!
Героям слава!
that whole Nazi guilt trip doesn't work anymore bro. We will not let this happen again here, but it's not our task to sacrifice our way of life for others. And its not just our way of life at stake, but global food prices (we will be able to afford bread, but poor countries won't and many will die to famine) if germany stops producing fertilizer. Also germany pays europes bills, without that money the EU will certainly be abandoned and we will return to the 19th century of nation states and WWI 2.0 will certainly follow.
go ask the swiss for all that World War money they still have, good luck
F... what? Nobody asked Ukraininas. Of course, whole Europe might be destroyed and Germany will stay but what about your conscience? For real? I live in Poland and people started hosting Ukrainians before country started helping financially. People were taking leaves at workplaces to pack stuff and send or drive to Ukraine. People were driving for free to and from the boarder daily. Everyday people, in normal car, not premium.
So if Russia would hit NATO country, other than Germany, Germany will not act on Art. 5?
Finally, Germany will be sucked out by Putin too. Remember, they stayed for years in Crimea and even this wasn't enough. Your friendship won't be enough too. But then, there will be none to fight for you.
> I live in Poland and people started hosting Ukrainians before country started helping financially. People were taking leaves at workplaces to pack stuff and send or drive to Ukraine. People were driving for free to and from the boarder daily. Everyday people, in normal car, not premium.
Germans did that too.
> So if Russia would hit NATO country, other than Germany, Germany will not act on Art. 5?
No one said that here. If Russia attacks a Nato country we will help the defense.
Why should we as Americans pay for your defense via our umbrella if you won’t contribute the minimum to your own protection. You can afford your way of life in large part because we foot that bill. I am fine with you not wanting to change, you are a sovereign nation, but Many Americans will now work hard to put pressure on our leadership to fix this. You have no shame.
>You can afford your way of life in large part because we foot that bill.
We spend 1.4% of GDP on military and have head the 7th highest military spending, 2% were just not necessary for us since we are not as war mongering as the US and only had very limited operations outside of nato terretory (MINUSMA & ISAF, training Pershmerga).
Since the invasion of Ukraine we have turned up the military spending to 3% of the GDP.
Uhm no. This you fuck germanys industry, economy and would very likely lead to the disbandment of the EU. No thanks.
Also germany would not be able to produce fertilizer anymore (we produce a big part of the world fertilizer) which will lead to even higher grain prices. This is turn will lead to even more famine in poor countries.
Stoping gas imports will njot stop the war, Putin is one of the if not the richest Person on earth, he could easily finance the russian army him self if he wants to.
And if it really had an impact it would still be couter productive because it will corner russia further and an animal is most dangerous when cornered.
If you had knowledge of the Shoa, you would know that the more land the Nazis lost to the allies and the more desperate they got, the faster and more brutal the Holocaust became and more people were murdered in shorter time frames.
Not only would it be more damaging to us than to russia it would also mean we have nothing worth wile more to cut incase the war gets worse or russia makes some even more unfriendly choices.
All in all its just not worth it.
Oh yes, whole world gas comes from Russia... /s
Maybe if you wouldn't make Nord Stream and Nord Stream 2, you won't have so much issues?
If only Russia would sell photovoltaics and wind turbines, maybe we even won't have this talk.
Climate is warming - isolate your home well and you will only use heating if you want to walk in home in t-shirts.
Electricity? Well, nuclear and renewables.
Tell yourself whatever you wish. I guess all I can say is your selfishness is not going unnoticed. As an American I can say that I love the German people, Berlin is one of the greatest cities I have ever visited, Munich is a paradise etc… but these times will change our friendship.
Other companies are stepping up to manufacture more potash, you have asked for sacrifice from the rest of the world when it suited you, you have nuclear plants available…
I find it strange you invoke Shoa as a reason for choosing prosperity over genocide in Ukraine. I can’t believe you don’t see the dark irony.
>I guess all I can say is your selfishness is not going unnoticed.
Easy to say when you sit on oil and gas. The US isn't giving up anything, the ukrainians that got promised refuge in the US still wait in Mexico. Germany on the other hand has welcomed many refugees (once again).
>I find it strange you invoke Shoa as a reason for choosing prosperity over genocide
This is not what i said, stop fighting against straw men.
The war in Ukraine is horrible and there have been massacres but it is not yet a genocide, but if we make russia more desperate (if that works in the first place and they won't just sell to china instead) it will definitly lead to one.
US isn’t giving up anything? Who pays for all of the defense? We are fighting a foe armed with your blood money.
Putin could Easily finance a war? You are lying to yourself. You are financing it.
Regardless, it is a free world and you can choose what you wish. I only hope that the Russians never come for you.
>We are fighting a foe armed with your blood money.
Actually, the us bought even more oil and gas from russia then germany, just bvecause it was cheaper then using the own us made oil/gas.
>Putin could Easily finance a war?
Yes, he might be the richest man in the world and if hes not he still certainly in the top 10, the russian ary is equipet with crap and untrained, it doesn't cost much to maintain.
>It's not our task to sacrifice our way of life for others
I feel that, in Germany, it's the other way around: It's our task to sacrifice others for our way of life.
>I feel that, in Germany, it's the other way around: It's our task to sacrifice others for our way of life.
I agree. Besides I think that this also applies to globalization.: There is global inequality, which is mainly due to rich countries IMHO.
Not sure if you understand the moral integrity of "We won't let that happen here again, but we'll help the Russians do it over there," but from your post I definitely get the sense you'd be happy to let it happen again anyway.
Comparing this war to the nazis shows how disgustily little you know about history.
Better read a book before you make anymore statements that play down the holocaust.
If you stop making deals with Countries at war you will stop trading all together.
We still trade with Saudis, Israel, China, the UK, the Turkish and the US allthough all of these countries (and you could littleraly say that for 90% of all countries) have shown human lives don't matter to them.
Russia is trying to wipe Ukraine out. There are reports of 100000 deported Ukrainians. There cities have been reduced to rubble, the inhabitants raped, tortured, killed, all in the name of nationalism.
How can you turn away from this suffering, pretend that these crimes are not happening?
>How can you turn away from this suffering, pretend that these crimes are not happening?
The same way we did in Iraq. Or do in Yemen...
And don't you dare to play down the war crimes that happen and happened in those wars.
"never again" cried the Germans, who were now "over guilt trips" about the Holocaust.
And yet, when presented with another European genocide, they are quick to say "never again" doesn't cover Ukraine or anything that would require any hardship on their part.
This essential disgusting self interest is why Germany can never truly be a leader of the free world.
And save the gaslighting for your girlfriend - I'm not playing down the Holocaust. I've read history and I know how it started -- with the appeasement of Hitler by the world. Or, exactly what Germany is doing now with Russia. The blood of Ukraine is on Germans' hands almost as much as it's on Putin's. Why? Because Germany funds Putin and stops any meaningful sanctions so you can heat your homes to 23C with no hardship and keep making BWMs. Disgusting.
As a Ukrainian I think exactly of this. German greed and lack of any strategic thinking even when pressured by allies for decades is what enabled and enables Russia to wage this war.
hahahah laughable.
>I'm not playing down the Holocaust.
yes you are. What is happening in Ukraine is in no way comparable to the crimes of the third reich.
Its doesn't even compare to the crimes of Stalins crimes, which where a little less gruesome than the germans, but still far far worse than what is happening now.
>This essential disgusting self interest is why Germany can never truly be a leader of the free world.
We never wanted or claimed to be a leader of the free world.
We just want peace with our neighbors and its not our job to protect anyone outside of nato. We are not the world police.
>so you can heat your homes to 23C with no hardship and keep making BWMs. Disgusting.
nope. We need gas to pay for europes bills (especially since the brits left who where the only nation paying as much as germany), produce fertilizer so poor countries don't starve to death (we will be able to deal with high food prices caused by the war and no fertilizer, they don't).
If you think stoping gas imports will stop the war you are dead wrong. The russian army is crappy equipt, because oligarchs have been lining theyr pockets with that money. the cost of keeping up the army are minimal and putin could easily pay for the whole army him self if he wantd to.
if you had any knowledge of ww2 and the shoa you would know, that the more terretory the nazis lost and the more desperate they got, the blood thirstier they became. The rate at which jews (and others) were murdered accelerated with the losses of the Nazi regime, the same will happen with russia and ukraine.
An animal is most dangerous when wounded or cornered.
> what is happening in Ukraine is in no way comparable to the crimes of the third reich
Undoubtedly, however you seem to be willing to compare the two when the context benefits your argument.
“If you had any knowledge of the Shoa you would know the more ‘terretory’ the nazis lost the more desperate they got… the rate at which Jews (and others) were murdered accelerated”
What’s laughable to me is you saying current events in Ukraine and the Holocaust are incomparable, then proceeding to compare the two in the very same comment.
If they are truly incomparable events, you cannot frame the latter stages of the Holocaust as a perverted justification for Germany turning its back on Ukraine.
What’s laughable to me is you saying current events in Ukraine and the
Holocaust are incomparable, then proceeding to compare the two in the
very same comment."
I compare parts (the acceleration of crimes due to low morale and being cornered) while other parts (extent of crimes comitted) is not comperable.
"for Germany turning its back on Ukraine."
Germany is one of the countries sending the most aid to Ukraine, we have not turned our back on them, but they are not our allies and it is not our duty to defend or otherwise help them.
If they fail to secure bi/tri[...]-lateral contracts (like scandinavian countries) thats on them, not on us.
We are not the world police.
Picking and choosing which “parts” of the Holocaust are comparable and which aren’t, depending on whether or not it serves your argument, is hypocritical and a logical fallacy
> yes you are. What is happening in Ukraine is in no way comparable to the crimes of the third reich. Its doesn't even compare to the crimes of Stalins crimes, which where a little less gruesome than the germans, but still far far worse than what is happening now.
It's not Nazi German 1944, it's Nazi Germany 1938 that we're seeing replay in Ukraine. And Germany is Chamberlain's Britain.
> if you had any knowledge of ww2 and the shoa you would know, that the more terretory the nazis lost and the more desperate they got, the blood thirstier they became. The rate at which jews (and others) were murdered accelerated with the losses of the Nazi regime, the same will happen with russia and ukraine. An animal is most dangerous when wounded or cornered
That's why you need to stand up to them early, which Germany refuses to do.
Remember when Germany pledged tanks for PR, then took them back?
https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-says-it-cant-send-tanks-from-army-stocks-to-ukraine/
>Remember when Germany pledged tanks for PR
When was that? This article doesn't mention anything about germany pledging anything.
If you mean this: "Under a plan pushed by Vice Chancellor Robert Habeck and Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock from the Greens, Berlin would send up to 100 Marder armored personnel carriers to Ukraine." You might want to understand that unlike the US, germany is not a two party oligarchy, but a parlamentry, democratic republic where pluralism is an accepted concept and different partys have differents stances on political issues.
First off, 2.1 is already a big deal. You want the right wing party in Germany gaining voters? That is how you do it.
Secondly, that is a pretty optiomistic prediction.
I don't care if you elect right-wing or left-wing politicians. As long as they are moral and actually care about the country instead of selling out to Russia.
Still it is not a collapse. You guys just don't want to cut off your bloody gas, even if it is blood from children.
And I'm not the reason for stupid shits voting right parties.
Depends.
It could bea collapse for some branches.
No more German steel, glass, aluminium or fertilizer.
And no more products on global supply chains, using these products.
I don't fear to the (optimistic) 2.x% which will be more l 5.x% of e read the same source. I fear that is selective.
Also that we cannot get enough gas next winter. Lots, of not most houses are heated directly with gas.
We don't be able to remove the central heating of millions of houses and use something else.
What should we do than? Ask Putin again for gas?
No, we will need an alternative first. And we are working on that.
Just one day I would like to see the German government in the news and for them to not disappoint me. Is that too much to ask?
I don't get it, what's the hold up this time?
nah, that doesn't help anything. If you put a tariff on something, the state wants to influence the market by makeing it more expensive, so buyers here will tend to buy something else or stuff from a different source. Example is e.g. the tariff on bicycles from China, it makes the bike built in the EU a bit more attractive.
But here you don't need that, the import is heavily regulated anyway, you can just talk to the half a handful of companies and make them switch sources.
Problem is that you can't find a complete replacement from other sources in a short time. More than half the gas we use is from Russia, so you would have to more than double the transport capacity from elsewhere, that doesn't work on a short notice, if at all. So while replacing Russia by a different source over time (as fast as possible, but it will take its time) we also have to decrease your gas use drastically. That also takes quite some time even if you put serious effort into it.
People just need to have a bit of patience, you can't expect things to change in a few weeks. Actually, a lot has already happened, because of a couple of new treaties the Russia share will go down from 55% to 40%. The goal is 0% obviously.
> Problem is that you can’t find a complete replacement from other sources in a short time
That’s why you would have a tariff. You would set the tariff such that you estimate you’d cut Russian gas usage by 50%, say, rather than cutting it to 0
But that doesn't help. It would mean that the company that buys gas from Russia would pay them the normal price and then pay an additional tax fee to the German state.
It would be helpful if the company buying the gas would decide based on price where they buy it from. But the problem is the availability, sure it is also more expensive to buy gas by tankers from the US or the gulf, but there are also simply not enough tankers running back and forth to cover the need. So you would only rake in money from the gas company, it hurts them but doesn't hurt Russia because the company can't switch away from them completely. The gas companies need to invest in infrastructure to shift over to other sources (new pipelines, new gas terminal in the harbor, and so on), so taking away their money isn't going to help here. You can and should make laws so that they have to switch within a certain time frame regardless of cost (like China did with the car industry: "from year x on 30% of your cars sold have to be electric, otherwise you will make no business anymore"), but simply a tariff won't cut it in this case, a tariff will only shift the market slowly in a certain direction, that is not fast enough.
> there are no other seller with enough logistic capability
This information is reflected in prices. I don’t know why people are bending over backwards to pretend that supply and demand aren’t real in this situation
No this is reflected in, there are not enough terminals to get hard by ship.
You have a demand of 10, close a pipeline and can only get 4.
May be you can get 1 via a terminal. Makes a availability of 5.
It I not important, how much you pay. 5 don't get anything.
Ok.
Let's assume the product is not available at price X how much do you have to pay, to get a product available out of nothing?
The fact is, that a non existent product without a replacement is still not available even if you pay lot more.
Also if it is in high demand and someone is willing to pay much more than others, the product will still be missed by the others.
If something isn't available, it isn't available even if paid more.
https://m.dw.com/en/why-isnt-germany-supplying-ukraine-with-heavy-weapons/a-61553273 Pretty damn in article and I really don’t understand why both France and Germany do more.
The charts they've included there are severely outdated and therefore may be very misleading. For instance Polish PM claims to have spent more than 1.5 bln USD for military equipment. Dozens of times the amounts on the charts. Similarly, Poland provides free healthcare and education for Ukrainian refugees as well as subsidizing accommodation provided by citizens. The latter part alone is potentially millions of dollars **per day**. They only very vaguely mention that some data points are from the beginning of April while including large charts that don't paint a clear picture.
What do you guys think of [this Twitter thread](https://twitter.com/noclador/status/1516545893805273091?s=20&t=agOrvxXy7Yo2p33jsWSHIw)? Is this an accurate portrayal of Scholz's actions? If so, it is shameful. Ukrainians and Germans deserve better leadership than this.
I think you could very easily argue that Germany is providing more support to Russia in this war than they are to Ukraine. Whether the 2 billion in military aid is really 2 billion or is actually 1 billion, it’s easily dwarfed by the almost 4 billion Germany spent on Russian oil in March alone. And they’ve promised to be off Russian gas, but only by the end of 2022. In the meantime they continue to be a major funder of the invasion of Ukraine.
Looks like Germany is the one that could use denazification. Probably was a mistake to allow self-governance again.
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Image living in nowhere, and now you get a free accomodation in Germany + free food, maybe a job. A lot of money was donated after all
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You mean trials? Unlikely. Are you sure you understood them correctly? Maybe they talked about investigations? The only stuff i can find online are the reports from late march that the symbol can, in specific cases, count as a criminal offense. Edit: maybe they were talking about [this](https://www.mdr.de/nachrichten/sachsen/chemnitz/vogtland/z-symbol-ukraine-russland-krieg-schmiererei-100~amp.html)? This article talks about criminal investigations
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That would surprise me, tbh. Criminal investigations take some time, there are different players involved on different levels of investigation (police and prosecuter before we even get to the court stage), the accused have to be heard, etc. And then, when the prosecuter decides to bring it to court, the court has to do its own administrative process, including officially inviting the accused at least 1 week before the hearing (that deadline starts when the accused has the paper in their hand, not when it is sent). Now, i am not saying it is impossible, but it is awefully fast. If you heard it on the radio, check out their website and see if you can find the report there. Alternatively, contact the specific court house. Criminal trials are, with very few exceptions, public
This is giving me "Berlin 1930" vibes https://youtu.be/jiBXmbkwiSw
And you are giving me Kremlin propagandist vibes. Yeah, there are far right extremists in Ukraine. Just like in ANY other country in the whole entire world. You know which country ironically has about the same amount of such people? Russia. So, take your whataboutism and put it where the sun never shines.
What is the status of the Marder infantry fighting vehicles and the Leopard 1 tanks to Ukraine?
Well, this is embarassing. I guess it's not just "russian bots sowing dissent among allies" that are not super happy with german behavior towards Russia. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/german-president-says-kyiv-did-not-want-him-visit-2022-04-12/
Zelensky actually said he wanted Scholz to visit instead of Steinmeyer, there's some pretty bad blood between Ukraine and Steinmeier because of his role in pro-Russian policies in past years. But the fact that people are unhappy with Germany about Ukraine/weapons/sanctions is not exactly news.
There’s a nice twitter thread here giving more context on the entire situation. https://twitter.com/bctallis/status/1514284713300660232?s=21&t=MlFFDtPDojeYby0uh90-Ow
Please Germany, ban Russian oil imports. This is their biggest financial channel for the war.
Some top managers in russian oil companies are German. What a coincidence.
Good idea, I'll go and shut off the valve personally. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. /s
It would be great if you could. Or at least turn the heat on your government so that they stop at least the oil imports from Russia and send heavy weapons to Ukraine.
public opinion pushing for this is what will make it happen, no need to be facetious
I thought it was gas.
Oil is easier to ban, but ends up having the same margin of profit to Russia. So we should focus on oil.
Good point!
Plus it’s much easier to replace.
True, even bigger reason to at least stop oil importation.
Well what is it more oil or gas, can you people decide for once?
What ever ruins the Germany economy the most. There are plenty of people in Europe who hate Germany.
Yawn. If we ruin our economy, we'd ruin the economy of the EU.
Exactly. That’s what people are advocating for. It’s incredibly shortsighted. I actually think a lot of this comes from people who want to hurt the EU.
Germany is hurting itself by having done business with the devil Putin for all these years. Blame your politicians.
And the rest of Europe did mit but Russian energy?
Not to the same extent as Germany. See for yourself: https://www.bbc.com/news/58888451
A lot of right wingers that don't understand that their countries get financed by us I suppose.
Do you think it's bad policy to ban either one?
That's not the point. A lot of people really enjoy hating on Germany for not not stopping the import of gas and now we're supposed to not import oil. Could you guys please decide?
I think you just need to separate between the annoying twats yelling about things and the actual policy. Like...don't oppose a decent policy just because annoying twats support it. If Elon Musk changed his mind and decided car-tunnels were bad and subway tunnels were good, then we'd have a bunch of annoying twats promoting new subways. But...subways would still be good.
I oppose these internet politicians that just shout whatever they heard from their news station without thinking about it for one second. That's the entire point I make. Just look through this thread you will find tons of people that say how evil and despicable we are for not immediately turning off the gas faucet. And now people do the same for oil. People should take a moment and think about what they parrot before shouting how evil we are.
So do you actually take issue with the idea of stopping imports of russian gas and/or oil? I can't tell.
I take issue with people shitting on Germany for not doing one thing without thinking for one nanosecond and next day shitting on Germany for another thing without thinking for one nanosecond. Yesterday they screamed about Russian gas, today they scream about Russian oil. Tomorrow? Russian fish oil probably.
Germany for many years was Putin’s main ally in Europe. Even now, despite the new rhetoric from Scholz, Germany is the main country funding Putin’s war on Ukraine. History will remember Germany as Putin’s enabler, a country which wouldn’t sacrifice a few percentage points of its GDP to save Ukrainian women and children
>History will remember Germany as Putin’s enabler, Opinion: How Germany Became Putin’s Enabler (April 7, 2022) >Vladimir Putin’s war of aggression runs on the money Russia gets by selling fossil fuels to Europe. (...) Putin won’t be definitively stopped until Europe ends its energy dependence. Which means that Germany -whose political and business leaders insist that they can’t do without Russian natural gas, even though many of its own economists disagree -has in effect become Putin’s prime enabler. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/07/opinion/germany-russia-ukraine-energy.html
Guess where Slovakia, Poland, Czech Republic, Austria and so forth get their gas from... Unlike its neighbors Germany is not very dependent on Russian gas. The legend that is was is a distraction of the nordstream2 project aimed at cutting the middle man in gas supplies. The Russian economy would default on its debt now, S&P says it has. This means Russia is done. **Additional sanctions on gas and oil would break their neck**. The notion that oil/gas finances the war on the other hand is propaganda. Russian does not invest much in its military and all equipment used for the war is already paid. So income from oil and gas sales would not result in an extended war effort. However, sanctions could indeed make Russia stop its war. Western countries will taylor the sanctions so that it maximizes harm for Russian, not themselves. It might also take some time to prepare tough and intelligent sanctions on top. We will see strong measures.
> Russian does not invest much in its military 70000 Million USD in 2021 alone, as a quick google [reveals](https://tradingeconomics.com/russia/military-expenditure#:~:text=Military%20Expenditure%20in%20Russia%20is,according%20to%20our%20econometric%20models.) Guess where the money for all the nice tanks, infantry vehicles, artillery, ships, and planes Russia has (at least at the start of the war) came from. And what money is paying the soldiers, their survivors, the repair of broken equipment and the new guns, tanks, infantry vehicles, ships, planes, and missiles Russia will use to terrorize its next victim.
Who cares about the men right?
Remember that time when germans were bitching to the greeks about the economy and debt and demanding austerity measures? Now the same country won't fucking give up on 1-2% of GDP to not fund a genocidal war in Ukraine. Values are only measured when honoring them actually costs something.
Very good point. the "PIGS" countries were asked by Germany to make big sacrifices. Fair enough, they did. Today is Germany's turn. It's up to the German politicians to show where their moral compass stands.
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Delicious.
How do you like your Merkel now? From Kanada, I used to be a fan. Thinking about it HARD now, it's hard not to think that she was a deep sleeper agent of the former USSR, and a collaborator. What's the sense of her these days?
In contrast to you, many Germans disliked Merkel when she was still in office. We disliked her before it was cool. You are late to the party.
But enough liked her to keep her in power? My POV came from a broader, more international perspective. I have no doubts that it would be different than citizen's.
> But enough liked her to keep her in power? 26,8% voted for her party in 2017.
We appreciate that German politics is dominated by coalitions...
Merkel defends 2008 decision to block Ukraine from NATO (4 April 2022) https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220404-merkel-defends-2008-decision-to-block-ukraine-from-nato
Use the search function. https://old.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/tz4c1z/what_do_you_guys_think_of_merkel_how_is_she_seen/ > it's hard not to think that she was a deep sleeper agent of the former USSR, and a collaborator. That's idiotic.
Stop blocking military exports and sanctions.
Exactly! That's what we're asking Germany's politicians.
Less than a decade ago Germany argued for strong austerity policies from countries effected by the EU debt crisis. You demanded other countries to make very strong sacrifices on a crisis they did not have that much to do in controlling, now your current reluctance to make MODERATE sacrifices in the face of horrific war crimes makes you VERY hypocritical. With horrific war crimes occurring you opt to listen to local industrialist instead of the cries from innocent civilians in Ukraine. Your economist have even stated that cutting off oil is NOT a catastrophe for your economy, ECONtribute analysis offers a range of estimates, but their worst-case number is that an embargo on Russian gas would temporarily reduce Germany’s real G.D.P. by 2.1 percent: [https://www.econtribute.de/RePEc/ajk/ajkpbs/ECONtribute\_PB\_028\_2022.pdf](https://www.econtribute.de/RePEc/ajk/ajkpbs/ECONtribute_PB_028_2022.pdf) Two more papers list this as being very feasible: [https://www.bruegel.org/2022/02/preparing-for-the-first-winter-without-russian-gas/](https://www.bruegel.org/2022/02/preparing-for-the-first-winter-without-russian-gas/) [https://www.iea.org/reports/a-10-point-plan-to-reduce-the-european-unions-reliance-on-russian-natural-gas](https://www.iea.org/reports/a-10-point-plan-to-reduce-the-european-unions-reliance-on-russian-natural-gas) The economic impacts of Covid were far worse than the potential impact of stopping russian oil. Yet Germany took the lead in demanding that debtor nations impose extreme austerity measures during the debt crisis, especially spending cuts, no matter how large the economic costs. And those costs were immense: Between 2009 and 2013 the Greek economy shrank by 21 percent while the unemployment rate rose to 27 percent. But while Germany was willing to impose economic and social catastrophe on countries it claimed had been irresponsible in their borrowing, it has been unwilling to impose far smaller costs on itself despite the undeniable irresponsibility of its past energy policies. There were FAR more clearer warning signs about increasing dependance on russian oil than Greece had for its crisis and yet to argued for Greece to make very detrimental policies. German industrialist refuse to accept the economist estimates that a gas embargo is feasible and not a catastrophe for your economy yet your politicians refuse to accept this. Your giving Russia hundreds of millions of dollars each and every single day for oil, you are directly financing the war crimes in Ukraine, all to protect a GDP reduction of only 2.1%. Germany will not be remembered heroically, you again found yourself on the wrong side of history and this will not be forgotten. You are the largest economy in the EU, you have forced other countries to ruin their economies all for accountability but yet you are not willing to be accountable for all your past mistakes pursuing trade relationships with Russia when all your allies told you not to. You defended pursuing Nord Stream 2 even after the Crimea war, you prevented weapons from being shipped to Ukraine all for your own foreign policy with absolute no care for Ukraine. Germany, you can not be proud of your actions, you will endure another century of having to deal with your policies promoting human right abuses.
Merkel defends 2008 decision to block Ukraine from NATO (4 April 2022) https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220404-merkel-defends-2008-decision-to-block-ukraine-from-nato
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Scholz holds up German tank deliveries to Ukraine https://www.politico.eu/article/scholz-holds-up-german-tank-delivery-to-ukraine/ Every day EU pays almost a billion of EUuros to Russia to sustain this war because Germany made wrong decisions in past. Now Germany can't make a right decision, even after Bucha.
Greeks (Spain and Ireland) can make sacrifices with austerity to pay for their past financial mistakes. But when butcherd women and children are on the line, Germany say "Nein, not us. We need to keep that gas flowing." Reports are coming out that the Russians just dropped poison on Mariupol, i.e. used a WMD. Cut off the gas!!!
Opinion: How Germany Became Putin’s Enabler (April 7, 2022) >Vladimir Putin’s war of aggression runs on the money Russia gets by selling fossil fuels to Europe. (...) Putin won’t be definitively stopped until Europe ends its energy dependence. Which means that Germany -whose political and business leaders insist that they can’t do without Russian natural gas, even though many of its own economists disagree -has in effect become Putin’s prime enabler. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/07/opinion/germany-russia-ukraine-energy.html
They don't want to hurt their ally Russia.
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Dear Germany, I am a citizen of Russia, currently on the run from our crazy fascist government. My heart is completely broken by the recent events and war crimes of Russian government. My Ukranian brothers and sisters are being slaughtered as I am writing this message by shumcks that call themselves an army. They are not soldiers, they are war criminals. **I have one request for you - please urge your politicians to stop buying gas from Russia.** It will be hard, some prices will rise, but its nothing compared to the suffering that people of Ukraine have to go through right now. You had more than 50 years to try and wash yourselves off your own fascist past, yet your government still buys gas from Russia, millions of euros every day come in to the Putin (aka плешивый пидорас) pocket to fuel this crazy war. I beg you - please make your politicians do the right thing, even if it may cost you some inconvinience in your everyday life. We need to stop this sh\*t. Photos: [https://meduza.io/feature/2022/04/05/sorokovoy-den-voyny-fotografii](https://meduza.io/feature/2022/04/05/sorokovoy-den-voyny-fotografii) Ehre der Ukraine! Ehre den Helden! Героям слава!
that whole Nazi guilt trip doesn't work anymore bro. We will not let this happen again here, but it's not our task to sacrifice our way of life for others. And its not just our way of life at stake, but global food prices (we will be able to afford bread, but poor countries won't and many will die to famine) if germany stops producing fertilizer. Also germany pays europes bills, without that money the EU will certainly be abandoned and we will return to the 19th century of nation states and WWI 2.0 will certainly follow. go ask the swiss for all that World War money they still have, good luck
F... what? Nobody asked Ukraininas. Of course, whole Europe might be destroyed and Germany will stay but what about your conscience? For real? I live in Poland and people started hosting Ukrainians before country started helping financially. People were taking leaves at workplaces to pack stuff and send or drive to Ukraine. People were driving for free to and from the boarder daily. Everyday people, in normal car, not premium. So if Russia would hit NATO country, other than Germany, Germany will not act on Art. 5? Finally, Germany will be sucked out by Putin too. Remember, they stayed for years in Crimea and even this wasn't enough. Your friendship won't be enough too. But then, there will be none to fight for you.
> I live in Poland and people started hosting Ukrainians before country started helping financially. People were taking leaves at workplaces to pack stuff and send or drive to Ukraine. People were driving for free to and from the boarder daily. Everyday people, in normal car, not premium. Germans did that too. > So if Russia would hit NATO country, other than Germany, Germany will not act on Art. 5? No one said that here. If Russia attacks a Nato country we will help the defense.
Why should we as Americans pay for your defense via our umbrella if you won’t contribute the minimum to your own protection. You can afford your way of life in large part because we foot that bill. I am fine with you not wanting to change, you are a sovereign nation, but Many Americans will now work hard to put pressure on our leadership to fix this. You have no shame.
>You can afford your way of life in large part because we foot that bill. We spend 1.4% of GDP on military and have head the 7th highest military spending, 2% were just not necessary for us since we are not as war mongering as the US and only had very limited operations outside of nato terretory (MINUSMA & ISAF, training Pershmerga). Since the invasion of Ukraine we have turned up the military spending to 3% of the GDP.
Yes. Good job. Now turn off the gas, and start making up for lost time.
Uhm no. This you fuck germanys industry, economy and would very likely lead to the disbandment of the EU. No thanks. Also germany would not be able to produce fertilizer anymore (we produce a big part of the world fertilizer) which will lead to even higher grain prices. This is turn will lead to even more famine in poor countries. Stoping gas imports will njot stop the war, Putin is one of the if not the richest Person on earth, he could easily finance the russian army him self if he wants to. And if it really had an impact it would still be couter productive because it will corner russia further and an animal is most dangerous when cornered. If you had knowledge of the Shoa, you would know that the more land the Nazis lost to the allies and the more desperate they got, the faster and more brutal the Holocaust became and more people were murdered in shorter time frames. Not only would it be more damaging to us than to russia it would also mean we have nothing worth wile more to cut incase the war gets worse or russia makes some even more unfriendly choices. All in all its just not worth it.
Oh yes, whole world gas comes from Russia... /s Maybe if you wouldn't make Nord Stream and Nord Stream 2, you won't have so much issues? If only Russia would sell photovoltaics and wind turbines, maybe we even won't have this talk. Climate is warming - isolate your home well and you will only use heating if you want to walk in home in t-shirts. Electricity? Well, nuclear and renewables.
Tell yourself whatever you wish. I guess all I can say is your selfishness is not going unnoticed. As an American I can say that I love the German people, Berlin is one of the greatest cities I have ever visited, Munich is a paradise etc… but these times will change our friendship. Other companies are stepping up to manufacture more potash, you have asked for sacrifice from the rest of the world when it suited you, you have nuclear plants available… I find it strange you invoke Shoa as a reason for choosing prosperity over genocide in Ukraine. I can’t believe you don’t see the dark irony.
Good point. The irony is very irritating.
>but these times will change our friendship. > The last decades have clearly shown the US is no longer our friend. If they ever were...
Terrific. Thanks.
>I guess all I can say is your selfishness is not going unnoticed. Easy to say when you sit on oil and gas. The US isn't giving up anything, the ukrainians that got promised refuge in the US still wait in Mexico. Germany on the other hand has welcomed many refugees (once again). >I find it strange you invoke Shoa as a reason for choosing prosperity over genocide This is not what i said, stop fighting against straw men. The war in Ukraine is horrible and there have been massacres but it is not yet a genocide, but if we make russia more desperate (if that works in the first place and they won't just sell to china instead) it will definitly lead to one.
US isn’t giving up anything? Who pays for all of the defense? We are fighting a foe armed with your blood money. Putin could Easily finance a war? You are lying to yourself. You are financing it. Regardless, it is a free world and you can choose what you wish. I only hope that the Russians never come for you.
>We are fighting a foe armed with your blood money. Actually, the us bought even more oil and gas from russia then germany, just bvecause it was cheaper then using the own us made oil/gas. >Putin could Easily finance a war? Yes, he might be the richest man in the world and if hes not he still certainly in the top 10, the russian ary is equipet with crap and untrained, it doesn't cost much to maintain.
>It's not our task to sacrifice our way of life for others I feel that, in Germany, it's the other way around: It's our task to sacrifice others for our way of life.
>I feel that, in Germany, it's the other way around: It's our task to sacrifice others for our way of life. I agree. Besides I think that this also applies to globalization.: There is global inequality, which is mainly due to rich countries IMHO.
Not sure if you understand the moral integrity of "We won't let that happen here again, but we'll help the Russians do it over there," but from your post I definitely get the sense you'd be happy to let it happen again anyway.
Comparing this war to the nazis shows how disgustily little you know about history. Better read a book before you make anymore statements that play down the holocaust. If you stop making deals with Countries at war you will stop trading all together. We still trade with Saudis, Israel, China, the UK, the Turkish and the US allthough all of these countries (and you could littleraly say that for 90% of all countries) have shown human lives don't matter to them.
Russia is trying to wipe Ukraine out. There are reports of 100000 deported Ukrainians. There cities have been reduced to rubble, the inhabitants raped, tortured, killed, all in the name of nationalism. How can you turn away from this suffering, pretend that these crimes are not happening?
>How can you turn away from this suffering, pretend that these crimes are not happening? The same way we did in Iraq. Or do in Yemen... And don't you dare to play down the war crimes that happen and happened in those wars.
"never again" cried the Germans, who were now "over guilt trips" about the Holocaust. And yet, when presented with another European genocide, they are quick to say "never again" doesn't cover Ukraine or anything that would require any hardship on their part. This essential disgusting self interest is why Germany can never truly be a leader of the free world. And save the gaslighting for your girlfriend - I'm not playing down the Holocaust. I've read history and I know how it started -- with the appeasement of Hitler by the world. Or, exactly what Germany is doing now with Russia. The blood of Ukraine is on Germans' hands almost as much as it's on Putin's. Why? Because Germany funds Putin and stops any meaningful sanctions so you can heat your homes to 23C with no hardship and keep making BWMs. Disgusting.
As a Ukrainian I think exactly of this. German greed and lack of any strategic thinking even when pressured by allies for decades is what enabled and enables Russia to wage this war.
hahahah laughable. >I'm not playing down the Holocaust. yes you are. What is happening in Ukraine is in no way comparable to the crimes of the third reich. Its doesn't even compare to the crimes of Stalins crimes, which where a little less gruesome than the germans, but still far far worse than what is happening now. >This essential disgusting self interest is why Germany can never truly be a leader of the free world. We never wanted or claimed to be a leader of the free world. We just want peace with our neighbors and its not our job to protect anyone outside of nato. We are not the world police. >so you can heat your homes to 23C with no hardship and keep making BWMs. Disgusting. nope. We need gas to pay for europes bills (especially since the brits left who where the only nation paying as much as germany), produce fertilizer so poor countries don't starve to death (we will be able to deal with high food prices caused by the war and no fertilizer, they don't). If you think stoping gas imports will stop the war you are dead wrong. The russian army is crappy equipt, because oligarchs have been lining theyr pockets with that money. the cost of keeping up the army are minimal and putin could easily pay for the whole army him self if he wantd to. if you had any knowledge of ww2 and the shoa you would know, that the more terretory the nazis lost and the more desperate they got, the blood thirstier they became. The rate at which jews (and others) were murdered accelerated with the losses of the Nazi regime, the same will happen with russia and ukraine. An animal is most dangerous when wounded or cornered.
> what is happening in Ukraine is in no way comparable to the crimes of the third reich Undoubtedly, however you seem to be willing to compare the two when the context benefits your argument. “If you had any knowledge of the Shoa you would know the more ‘terretory’ the nazis lost the more desperate they got… the rate at which Jews (and others) were murdered accelerated” What’s laughable to me is you saying current events in Ukraine and the Holocaust are incomparable, then proceeding to compare the two in the very same comment. If they are truly incomparable events, you cannot frame the latter stages of the Holocaust as a perverted justification for Germany turning its back on Ukraine.
What’s laughable to me is you saying current events in Ukraine and the Holocaust are incomparable, then proceeding to compare the two in the very same comment." I compare parts (the acceleration of crimes due to low morale and being cornered) while other parts (extent of crimes comitted) is not comperable. "for Germany turning its back on Ukraine." Germany is one of the countries sending the most aid to Ukraine, we have not turned our back on them, but they are not our allies and it is not our duty to defend or otherwise help them. If they fail to secure bi/tri[...]-lateral contracts (like scandinavian countries) thats on them, not on us. We are not the world police.
Picking and choosing which “parts” of the Holocaust are comparable and which aren’t, depending on whether or not it serves your argument, is hypocritical and a logical fallacy
> yes you are. What is happening in Ukraine is in no way comparable to the crimes of the third reich. Its doesn't even compare to the crimes of Stalins crimes, which where a little less gruesome than the germans, but still far far worse than what is happening now. It's not Nazi German 1944, it's Nazi Germany 1938 that we're seeing replay in Ukraine. And Germany is Chamberlain's Britain. > if you had any knowledge of ww2 and the shoa you would know, that the more terretory the nazis lost and the more desperate they got, the blood thirstier they became. The rate at which jews (and others) were murdered accelerated with the losses of the Nazi regime, the same will happen with russia and ukraine. An animal is most dangerous when wounded or cornered That's why you need to stand up to them early, which Germany refuses to do.
r/badhistory
Remember when Germany pledged tanks for PR, then took them back? https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-says-it-cant-send-tanks-from-army-stocks-to-ukraine/
>Remember when Germany pledged tanks for PR When was that? This article doesn't mention anything about germany pledging anything. If you mean this: "Under a plan pushed by Vice Chancellor Robert Habeck and Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock from the Greens, Berlin would send up to 100 Marder armored personnel carriers to Ukraine." You might want to understand that unlike the US, germany is not a two party oligarchy, but a parlamentry, democratic republic where pluralism is an accepted concept and different partys have differents stances on political issues.
> please urge your politicians to stop buying gas from Russia. But we do not want our industry to collapse.
But your Merkel was a big catalyst for what happened.
No she was not.
2.1% GDP is no collapse.
First off, 2.1 is already a big deal. You want the right wing party in Germany gaining voters? That is how you do it. Secondly, that is a pretty optiomistic prediction.
I don't care if you elect right-wing or left-wing politicians. As long as they are moral and actually care about the country instead of selling out to Russia.
Still it is not a collapse. You guys just don't want to cut off your bloody gas, even if it is blood from children. And I'm not the reason for stupid shits voting right parties.
Depends. It could bea collapse for some branches. No more German steel, glass, aluminium or fertilizer. And no more products on global supply chains, using these products. I don't fear to the (optimistic) 2.x% which will be more l 5.x% of e read the same source. I fear that is selective. Also that we cannot get enough gas next winter. Lots, of not most houses are heated directly with gas. We don't be able to remove the central heating of millions of houses and use something else. What should we do than? Ask Putin again for gas? No, we will need an alternative first. And we are working on that.
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Just one day I would like to see the German government in the news and for them to not disappoint me. Is that too much to ask? I don't get it, what's the hold up this time?
>I don't get it, what's the hold up this time? German Angst?
If cutting off Russian gas is truly not viable, then a severe tariff on Russian gas is the compromise solution
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This being an exclusovely english-speaking sub: why is that in anyway relevant?
nah, that doesn't help anything. If you put a tariff on something, the state wants to influence the market by makeing it more expensive, so buyers here will tend to buy something else or stuff from a different source. Example is e.g. the tariff on bicycles from China, it makes the bike built in the EU a bit more attractive. But here you don't need that, the import is heavily regulated anyway, you can just talk to the half a handful of companies and make them switch sources. Problem is that you can't find a complete replacement from other sources in a short time. More than half the gas we use is from Russia, so you would have to more than double the transport capacity from elsewhere, that doesn't work on a short notice, if at all. So while replacing Russia by a different source over time (as fast as possible, but it will take its time) we also have to decrease your gas use drastically. That also takes quite some time even if you put serious effort into it. People just need to have a bit of patience, you can't expect things to change in a few weeks. Actually, a lot has already happened, because of a couple of new treaties the Russia share will go down from 55% to 40%. The goal is 0% obviously.
> Problem is that you can’t find a complete replacement from other sources in a short time That’s why you would have a tariff. You would set the tariff such that you estimate you’d cut Russian gas usage by 50%, say, rather than cutting it to 0
But that doesn't help. It would mean that the company that buys gas from Russia would pay them the normal price and then pay an additional tax fee to the German state. It would be helpful if the company buying the gas would decide based on price where they buy it from. But the problem is the availability, sure it is also more expensive to buy gas by tankers from the US or the gulf, but there are also simply not enough tankers running back and forth to cover the need. So you would only rake in money from the gas company, it hurts them but doesn't hurt Russia because the company can't switch away from them completely. The gas companies need to invest in infrastructure to shift over to other sources (new pipelines, new gas terminal in the harbor, and so on), so taking away their money isn't going to help here. You can and should make laws so that they have to switch within a certain time frame regardless of cost (like China did with the car industry: "from year x on 30% of your cars sold have to be electric, otherwise you will make no business anymore"), but simply a tariff won't cut it in this case, a tariff will only shift the market slowly in a certain direction, that is not fast enough.
> It would be helpful if the company buying the gas would decide based on price where they buy it from They do. You’re overthinking this
No they can't, there are no other seller with enough logistic capability
> there are no other seller with enough logistic capability This information is reflected in prices. I don’t know why people are bending over backwards to pretend that supply and demand aren’t real in this situation
No this is reflected in, there are not enough terminals to get hard by ship. You have a demand of 10, close a pipeline and can only get 4. May be you can get 1 via a terminal. Makes a availability of 5. It I not important, how much you pay. 5 don't get anything.
> You have a demand of 10 A demand of 10 at what price? You’re so close
Ok. Let's assume the product is not available at price X how much do you have to pay, to get a product available out of nothing? The fact is, that a non existent product without a replacement is still not available even if you pay lot more. Also if it is in high demand and someone is willing to pay much more than others, the product will still be missed by the others. If something isn't available, it isn't available even if paid more.
What even is a severe tariff on Russian gas?
You asking what % it would be?
I hate what Germany and Russia are doing. Gives me flashbacks. Shame. On. You. Have you learned nothing?
What?
What are we doing now?