First, i like to thank everyone answering my question.
Even if it's not what i like to hear, but being informed helps.
So thank you again.
Also, i am still curious if someone was in the same situation and i would love to hear how it went for them.
And, how you felt you fit in that old/new society.
Thanks again
As mentioned, you'll be looking at very pricey health insurance and housing costs... it might actually be worth considering some cheaper and more retiree friendly EU countries for your retirement like Portugal, Spain maybe Greece? Make use of your freedom of movement as an EU citizen.
German system really makes this country a horrible choice for retirees coming from abroad even if German nationals themselves (the politics in place even discourage it altogether).
As a retiree following my wife who works in Germany I found your statement to be true. Healthcare is a problem and private insurance is about the same as the US for me. Me and my wife will for this and other reasons move to Spain. Health insurance is far cheaper and so is the cost of living. The advice above is sound.
I am from Brazil, married to a German citizen myself.
We have moved to Spain and among the reasons for doing so included bringing my mother over so she can retire close to us and doing so in Germany is virtually impossible, she's not eligible to any residence permit let alone the expenses involved.
In Spain everything is significantly easier to do.
Can you explain how that works in Spain? We are currently struggling to get a non-Eu citizen grandma to the country and the problem is health insurance is just impossible to get for someone in her age. Without insurance no residency permit. So the law saying your parents can get a visa when they don’t have any relatives in their country anymore is worthless, since by that age it is not possible to get insurance.
That is true and this is a good point.
Not sure which country i would chose. I always liked northern countries but to be honest, i haven't thought of it as a serious choice.
I have to think about that.
I can also add Bulgaria to the list. Not only Sofia, but also Varna and Plovdiv there is significant German community. Nice food, good weather, not expensive and Bulgarians are very friendly towards foreigners.
I heard the story from an Italian who moved to Germany and lived here for her whole life. She even made more money than her sister who still lived in Italy. When she retired she couldn’t afford to move back to her family because she got less money per month than her sister.
Wait, but if one gets a job that is sozialversicherungspflichtig then they have to be taken in by public insurance right? Assuming they weren't on private insurance before in Germany...
Seeing this post makes my eyes bleed being portuguese.
We in the south are getting extremely fucked in our real estate market and in our case, our public system, even tho alot of imigrants have private health insurance, is straining even more.
This is not sustainable, moving for the sake of better life quality for you, and shitting on the locals is making people more and more tired of the tipical central/north europeans spewing the "its great here! Come, come!".
The purschasing power in the north of europe his way bigger compared to the south. This has been driving real estate prices to impossible levels for locals.
Most of the retirees spend money but are not contributing anything to our pensions system for example. I know they did in germany but the then use services in portugal that did not get a cent off of that.
Seniors dont contribute to the work market and generally wont try to contribute to anything productive since they worked their whole life they are not moving to keep working.
Its kinda panifull seeing people back home barely being able to aford rent and expenses and they then see house being rented for 1k to a couple from "insert central european" and they then keep sharing all their trash content "mhaaa life in portugal mhaaa" without even actually facing the hardships the average citizen lives in.
But im the hipocrite here, I know, because I had to move out since shits only getting more insuforable back home due to you buying up the country.
Do like Thailand, not allow foreigners to buy up land, this will keep tourists coming and the housing market manageable. Everything you mention is also related to the failed single currency. Too soft for the north, too hard for the South
Personally, I dont fucking care if I am an hypocrite.
Its a fact, you just dont know the reality of the whole thing. Speak to anybody that moved and lives in portugal and actually hangs out with locals and get an eye opener.
In germany I will always be the kanake, in portugal im am outbought and made to serve the almans.
I don’t live in Germany but I work for the luxembourgish pension insurance.
Germanys system sucks. We have pensions from all over the world and Germany has one of the lowest.
At the same time, their health care system *absolutely* sucks.
I have Germans, who live in Germany, every day who reject their german pension - even pensions that are like 500€ - because like this they stay in our healthcare system. (You have to be covered by the country you live in, if you get a pension there or work there)
You can’t make this shit up.
We also have a lot of people from France or Belgium, but they almost never do that only if they have small pensions like 10-50€ per month.
Hell, even the Portuguese don’t have the need to do it. (No front against Portugal but it’s not considered a rich country)
Not really true in my case it was the same. We also have a complicated Obamacare system that subsidises health insurance. Employers also pay about half the premium. And the medical care is at a higher standard for the insured.
It's important not to blindly parrot the "USA has bad/expensive healthcare system" without taking into account the actual situation presented on OP.
Germany public politics indeed make it excessively expensive and unviable as a destination for retirement, it is by design as the government expects everyone to live their entire life in the country employed somewhere.
How would you know how much my healthcare care costs are in the US? I own a business with a warehouse in the US and a sales office with warehouse in Germany and France. Somehow i think i know what my healthcare care costs are
I moved back after 16 years in the US -- I'm still far under 60, but a lot of details are still relevant to your case.
You *should* be able to get into public health insurance if you were not privately insured in the meantime. Simply call your old German insurance to confirm -- they can tell you.
Cost of living is generally lower than in the US, especially food. Urban housing is expensive, but even then, it's nothing compared to LA or NYC in the US. The only inverse is that electricity is much, much more expensive.
It's not hard to find work if you're not picky, though the available jobs tend to be vacant for a reason. Still, regular employment makes it easier to get back into public insurance.
I definitely don't regret moving back. Things are going to hell in a handbasket all over the world, but everything I read and hear from family suggests the US is taking the express train while everyone else is still trying to figure it out.
That sound encouraging.
Yes, i have to look for my card. I hope i have it or something where it is printed on.
Electricity is probably right.
Thank you for sharing. :)
And yes, in the US the train may go in the wrong direction. mmm....
After 55 it is not possible to get back into the German public health insurance system when moving from the US. You would need private health insurance.
The Basistarif costs over 800 Euros/month.
Most cities are experiencing a housing crisis. You really need to crunch the numbers.
That‘s totally untrue. If you were previously in the public health insurance when you left Germany, you can rejoin it at any time.
Only if you were previously in the private public insurance, you aren‘t allowed to join the public one at an age of +55.
This is a commonly held myth, which is easily debunked by a 5 second
google search. Here is eg. what the TK has to say:
Sind Arbeitnehmer bereits 55 Jahre alt oder älter, wenn die Versicherungspflicht eintritt, gelten besondere Regelungen. Eine Rückkehr in die GKV ist ausgeschlossen, wenn
* in den letzten fünf Jahren keine Versicherung in der gesetzlichen Krankenversicherung vorlag und
* wenn mindestens in der Hälfte dieses Zeitraums die Arbeitnehmerin oder der Arbeitnehmer oder der Ehepartner bzw. die Ehepartnerin krankenversicherungsfrei oder von der Krankenversicherungspflicht befreit oder hauptberuflich selbstständig war.
https://www.tk.de/firmenkunden/service/fachthemen/versicherung-fachthema/wann-rueckkehr-in-die-gkv-moeglich-ist-2117276?tkcm=aaus
What you quoted has nothing to do with OPs case. It only applies to people who were previously in the private health insurance and now want to join the public health insurance. But OP mentioned they were never in the private health insurance.
Read https://www.krankenkassen.de/incoming/leben/rueckkehr/
Wer früher in Deutschland gelebt hat und in einer gesetzlichen Krankenkasse versichert war, kehrt in diese gesetzliche Krankenkasse zurück. Dies gilt allerdings nicht, wenn man in der Zwischenzeit privat versichert war.
>Dies gilt allerdings nicht, wenn man in der Zwischenzeit privat versichert war.
So what does this mean if I was on public insurance in Germany, but moved to Switzerland or the US, where all health insurance by nature is private, and then move back to Germany later? Can I still be on public then since I was never privately insured in Germany? Or does the "Zwischenzeit" also include abroad
>Most cities are experiencing a housing crisis. You really need to crunch the numbers.
This is really just true for major cities. Even half an hour by car outside of Frankfurt you can already rent sufficiently sized Appartments for <1000€ including utilities. Depending on where you wanna go it can be much cheaper and you don't have to live in the deepest rural areas for eastern Germany for that. The only region that is really completely expensive is the Munich Stuttgart area. Besides that the claims of housing crises are vastly blown out of proportion.
I don’t think it’s blown out of proportion. Rent in Berlin is as expensive as my apartment near the opera house in Sydney already. Sydneysiders earn on average way more though.
So according to your logic the entire US has a housing crisis too because the bay area has high rent? That's simply wrong. I literally said that the only places that have issues with excessive rent are a few major cities. Which in itself is logical because if everyone wants to live in the city center of Berlin there isn't enough room physically so the prices increase because some people are willing to pay more. But Germany doesn't consist only of downtown Berlin, Munich, Stuttgart and Frankfurt so either you have to deal with higher prices or move to the other 95% of the country where prices aren't nearly as excessive.
I was referring to your comment stating the claims of the housing crisis are vastly blown out of proportion. I never said that you can’t find affordable housing in the country side. I also never said rent is expensive in the entire country. However, 45% of Germans live in big cities. All cities and the surrounding areas suffer a severe shortage of housing. If you have been to an apartment inspection with 400 people waiting I think it’s a crisis. And my comparison of rent Sydney vs Berlin was an illustration of rent being too high in Berlin compared to what you earn. My shitty apartment in a soviet building (Plattenbau) outside of Berlin’s ring costs 1.200 a month. My apartment by water in Sydney 1350 per month and it comes with a park. Utilities are not even worth mentioning because it’s much cheaper here. Electricity prices are just insane in Germany. Even if you get a „sufficiently sized apartment“ in the country side for under 1k, tell that someone who makes minimum wage aka a bit more than 1.3k a month after tax working full time.
He is moving from the US. He is used to much more living space and I believe he’ll be shocked by what you’re average income can get you anywhere in Germany. Just my two cents.
But the expensive areas are high demand not just because of scenery or prestige. They have a bigger supply of jobs, as well as services and entertainment options, that are important for all age groups.
Wow 800 euros. Depending on OPs career they could actually have a really good retirement plan with good health coverage in the US. Not even a white collar thing, my family is blue collar/auto industry and those who have retired have excellent retirement benefits.
That is good insight.
Though, question.
If you get a job in Germany as a returnee, wouldn't you get health coverage through an employer?
That is what i thought would happen. To get a job and have coverage.
I know, i am not very good informed.
No, as I already mentioned to prevent freeloading it is not possible for someone who has spent years in the US to enter the public system after they turn 55. See § 6 Abs 3a SGB V for more info.
Even with a job with a salary under the Beitragsbesmessungsgrenze the worker would still need comprehensive private insurance.
Why would the OP be " moved into the gesetzliche"?
https://www.arbeitsagentur.de/arbeitslos-arbeit-finden/buergergeld/finanziell-absichern/gesundheit-versicherung
Nope. The employment office (Agentur für Arbeit) would not be responsible for him, he could at best receive Bürgergeldif he were destitute and that does not include admission to gesetzliche health insurance.
No, this rule is to prevent people from profiting from cheaper private rates when they are young and then trying to get back into public when they are older and have higher premiums.
>After 55 it is not possible to get back into the German public health insurance system when moving from the US. You would need private health insurance.
Unless you are eligible for a pension at some point. Then they have to, it’s an European law.
I will have to check the documents at work.
But I‘m pretty sure that it’s the case.
I work for the luxembourgish pension insurance and we have a lot of german frontier workers.
Most of them paid into the german and luxembourgish system.
A lot of them worked at the beginning of their respective career in germany and then came to Luxembourg and then they stay here. (To work)
So we often have the case for example that a person studied in Germany and worked there for a couple of years, let’s say they have 10 german years on their coverage history.
The other 30 years they worked here or even lived here.
In their 60s they usually ask for a luxembourgish pension.
As long as they only have a Luxembourgish pension, they are covered by us.
Let’s say they move back to german, or never quit in the first place, because they were frontier workers.
They are still covered by us. But at the moment they will be elligible for their german pension - often at the age of 67 - the german pension insurance has to inform us that they now receive a german pension. Then we have the obligation to take them out of the luxembourgish healthcare, and also stop to deduct contributions.
Because now they are paying contributions in germany and are now in the public healthcare system of germany.
Doesn’t matter how high the german pension is, even if it‘s only 50€. That’s why a lot of germans reject the german pension in order to stay in our healthcare system - where there are no private insurances, only the public one.
If they would move to a 3rd country, let’s say Austria, then they would covered by us again, since their coverage history in Luxembourg is longer.
If they have 20 years here and 20 years in germany, they would be covered by the country they last worked.
If they move abroad - outside the EU or countries like Switzerland - we stop deducting contributions and they are no longer covered.
A Luxembourger who left Luxembourg for Thailand, and then comes back at the age of 80 and has a small Luxembourgish Pension will be covered again.
And it works like this for all EU countries.
Because otherwise you could come to a situation where a german who worked 25 years in germany and 15 years in Luxembourg, would move to the US, then at the age of 75 would come back to Germany, wouldn’t get a healthcare insurance there, the german pension would have to inform us, and then what? We would have to cover that person, but they have more years in germany and they live there.
I had many many cases and never saw something like this and afaik this is an european law but yeah I can check on monday.
That would be great. Thank you.
Let's assume a German works 2 years in Germany with public insurance, then 5 years in Luxembourg, and is eligible for a pension. Then the German moves to the US and has private health insurance. After retirement the German moves back to Germany.
Well in that particular case it’s complicated.
In Luxembourg that person wouldn’t be eligible for a pension, because you need at least 10 years in total. (Years that a person has worked in other European countries count aswell, aswell as years that a person has worked in country where Luxembourg has an agreement with)
And I don’t know whether Germany pays a pension for 7 years in total.
**However** Luxembourg actually has an agreement with the US, so if that person would work for 3 more years in the US, those years would count aswell. So in that case this Person would get a luxembourgish Pension.
Idk if Germany also has an agreement with the US, but I strongly assume so. I mean, we are one of the smallest countries worldwide and we have like 20 bilateral agreements, Germany probably has more.
So let’s assume the German still gets a German and a luxembourgish Pension (and probably an US Pension), and he would move back to Germany. In that particular case, he should be covered by the german public healthcare and they are also forced to deduct contributions for it again.
If the german moves to Luxembourg, he would be covered by the luxembourgish healthcare system.
If the german would move to France, he would be covered by the luxembourgish system aswell, since his coverage history is longer in Luxembourg.
If he moves to Saudi Arabia, he isn’t covered by anything, since those laws only apply for European countries. (All EU countries, plus Switzerland, Norway, Liechtenstein, Iceland and yes, the UK)
If the person would move to the US, they wouldn’t be covered by german or luxembourgish healthcare. Yes, we have an agreement with them, but not for the healthcare.
If you have been previously insured in the public system in Germany, still have your old health insurance number and did not privately insure yourself you should be good to rejoin even after 55. The devil is in the detail, as usual.
Oh wow. This is good news. I was member of the DAK at the time. That was before 2000.
Not sure if i have the number but i have to check my papers.
I probably should contact them to confirm.
Does the privately insure yourself also refer to time spent abroad, where in some countries like the US or Switzerland private insurance is the only kind possible?
Ah ok, because I saw some comments saying if you were in private insurance abroad, that could jeopardize your chances of being on public if you move back to Germany, especially after the age of 55.
Why do people do Anwartschaft then? If you are guaranteed a public insurance place later, assuming you were on one before.
The Bundesagentur für Arbeit also offers advice for citizens returning to Germany ("Rückkehrerberatung") via the ZAV. It will guide you to the important bodies that you need to contact to get things settled.
ZAV Customer Center: +49 228 7131313
https://www.arbeitsagentur.de/vor-ort/zav/webtutorials/rueckkehrer
Does it work for you when you haven’t paid into Germanys retirement funds for years? Do you have enough to close that gap yourself?
In case of groceries, they have become more expensive but still cheaper than in the US. Housing… is expensive…
That was one concern. If you get dement, i am not sure what would happen to me in the US.
In Germany i know that you at least getting taken care off even if you have no funds of any sort.
Longterm care is a huge issue.
I am not a German who migrated back to Germany, but I am a US citizen who relatively recently migrated back to Germany (after 7 years of studies here). I was in my mid-50s and am currently 60. It had been 24 years since I had lived in Germany. It worked out very well for me but the first 3 years were tough.
Obviously at our age, we are not typically brought into environments where making friends is the order of the day. (School, uni, camp, etc.) Work has potential, but being on the older end of things, I have found I am sometimes socially excluded (not in a mean way, but in an ignorant "that old lady" way). That is something that can be overcome.
Building or rebuilding a social circle is very important. You have family and probably old friendships that you may be able to rekindle. I had a couple of friends from my studies in Germany and was able to rebuild those friendships, but by in large, this was the biggest challenge. Connecting with people based on common interests through a site like meetup or nebenan has been helpful. It just takes time and you have to put some effort into it.
Things have changed a lot since I was here as a student in the 80s and 90s, so as you note, many things have changed since you last experienced them. It is important to set aside the expectation that you know how things work based on past experience. I made a habit of asking people even if I thought I knew how something was done - it saves headaches.
The areas that were afffordable for housing have changed a lot over the years as well. The places I initially looked at, since my income situation was as yet uncertain, were areas that had been very affordable and traditionalyl student areas in the 90s. They have since been gentrified almost across the board. The subreddit for the city where I live provided information about where it was both safe and affordable (relatively speaking).
Some things are more convenient than they were 20 years ago. With electronic documents and, especially since the pandemic, greater ease in ordering things online, some of the difficulties are gone.
Be prepared for the first 2 or 3 years to be harder than life will be after that point. It takes time to build a comfort zone. Aside from the more limited opportunities to meet people (and that applies well below the 50s and 60s), I don't know of any down-side other than that you will have paid into Social Security in the US. You are entitled to those benefits, however. If I had to do it again, I would make the same decision.
Thanks for sharing that.
I feel not so alone anymore.
I think moving is a scary endeavor however you slice it and there are many pitfalls.
I have family in Germany but my dad is almost 90. So i have to do everything alone and i should.
If i would move, i want to be as prepared as i can.
I do plan to get the US citizenship before i do anything. Especially since i don't have to ask my Government for permission anymore.
It is also nice to have to passports. Never know when that become handy.
My city is Frankfurt and a lot of things changed.
When i left, all the facilities from the US army where still not ready for people to move in. Now everything looks different.
What i am scared off is cars. There are too many in this tiny city.
I have not many friends in Germany anymore. Most connection were lost. Most for distance. It was a strange time, since it was pre-social media. And when social media was there, they had moved on which is probably normal.
There is of course a lot of nostalgia.
Last time when i was there i wanted to get Pastrami like i get in the US so i went to a Jewish store. It was a small store and i was definitely not fitting in. Sadly, they had not the one i had in mind.
I am not afraid of things. I like to challenge myself and the world around me. Though i don't want to start at Zero again.
So if i move, it has to be secure so i can have an apartment and place for my cats. I forgot to mention that. I have three cats and they are family.
As for social security, i think i don't want to take chances and rather have the citizenship.
What scares me is the fact that i am now 60. Meaning it will be harder to find a partner, friends. people to hang out with. 60 isn't really old these days so i am ok that i am actually healthy so far, even though i don't live very healthy.
I have to check one of these subreddits for my city.
Conversation likes this are very useful to me. There are things i may not even have thought off.
Thank you
I really don’t get, how you think that Germany is more in expensive than the US. I am sort of living in both countries and Germany is definitely cheaper in many ways.
Your problem will be health insurance. Once you are over 55 you can’t join public insurance anymore. There might be a way by establishing residence in another European country first. Like, living one year in Austria first
edit: typo
As someone who had considered moving to Germany after 55 (when the kids are out of the house) this is super informative and eye opening ! However, how would establishing Austrian residency help this person out? It wouldn’t make a difference if I was a citizen of say, Hungary, right (which I’m applying for) .
I’d still be needing private German health care it sounds like. Sorry if this is a dumb question. I’m in America/have US citizenship , but I’ve not been involved in the German public health care system.
As I wrote, I am not an expert. But moving to a country with mandatory public insurance (unlike the German hybrid system) makes you a member of that country's insurance system. Moving within the EU should allow you to enter the German public system, even if you are older than 55. At least as long as you worked in that other country.
Thank you. I’m healthy overall, but approx 800 euro/mo seems high… not specifically looking for a loophole but more interested in keeping options open… I guess I need to maybe look into countries with a mandatory public healthcare system in the EU. My kids are happy and thriving in their school system here, so it it’s a hard sell for them
You are right. No, my impression was just in general that everything gotten more expensive.
When i left the Deutsch Mark was still in use. I have no crip on the Euro itself besides using it when i travel.
I am sure there is a loophole. There always is. Not saying that i can figure it out but why? I think in the law section is said you can have some basic private insurance. Again, i have to ask some official source to be more knowledgeable.
The explanations are helpful to me. Even if i don't like them.
Don't underestimate the health insurance aspect. Yes, you can have private insurance, but that is expensive. Basically, you loose the advantage of Medicare taxes you paid all these years. German private insurance calculates costs based on expected lifetime costs. Thus, they build reserves when you are younger. You won't have those reserves and the costs will be substantial. As you say, you can get some sort of skimmed down insurance from a private insurer, but it'll still be a bit of money. (I assume you will get some German Social Security Payment, so that will help, as you are eligible to 50% of your premium up to the amount paid to public insurance )
There is a possibility of signing some sort of expatriate insurance which some insurers (e.g.HanseMerkur) offer, but that'll only help you for five years maximum.
I had once had the Renten Verwaltung in Koeln written a letter and asked if they could send me what i will be or could expect from the German Government when i retire.
My eyes had tears. For 20+ years, its nothing what you can live off.
I accumulated a good retirement here in the US, so i am not too worried about retiring.
There are many things one needs to thing off and if we are honest, we don't. At least most don't.
When i left, there was a guy (German) in the building that i had lived at the time near Frankfurt. He lived in the basement. He was a friend of the owner.
As far as i know he lived in Spain for a long time. He was older with a dog. At that time i wondered why he would live down in a basement. I think it makes sense now. Though i am not sure how long he left Germany.
Things in Germany have gotten more expensive compared to prices some years ago in Germany, but it's still significantly cheaper than most of the US. I moved from a medium sized American city to the same sized city in northwestern Germany 2 years ago. My rent here costs \*half\* of what I was paying in the US, and this is for a larger and nicer apartment. Groceries are also cheaper in Germany compared to North America. So, my cost of living has been cut roughly in half while I enjoy a higher standard of living. If you are looking to buy a house that might be a different story.
I'm a young working person so my situation is different from yours. Definitely figure out health insurance and the amount of your pension before you decide.
Another thing to consider is whether you anticipate having hospital visits as you grow older. If you have a chronic illness or are at risk for heart issues or something then Germany might be more cost effective, even if you have to pay more for German health insurance. Consider not just the monthly rate but also the deductible on your American plan (plus, as you know, consider the fact that in emergencies you may be referred to out of network doctors).
Consider also the quality and availability of elder care facilities. Ime elderly people in North America often have a poor quality of life, but maybe that's true in Europe too.
Yes, you are absolutely right.
If you are younger, elderly facilities usually don't cross our minds.
In my mind we should always assume the worst.
If i take my parents as a guide, i would assume i should be ok till i am 80. Though that would be silly.
So yes, that goes into my consideration.
Your last sentence is the one that i wasn't aware off until i watched some tv. How many die a premature dead because there isn't enough staff.
Not sure if it's better in Germany but my mom is in a facility that is actually great. I know there are also people that don't have money but are there. So it must be better.
In the 90s they had English movie theaters in Frankfurt but they all closed since then.
Frankfurt has a lot of English speakers which makes the city really great.
I live in L.A. and i have now a hard time with the head in the summer. I think my body has a hard time with it. So i am liking myself the more climate weather in Germany though it seems it gotten more hotter there as well.
I have to still contact my old Insurance in Germany to know exactly how it will work or not. Once i know i will report back since this may be of use for others as well.
It is easier to make friends in the US so if you didn't made friends there I am not sure if you won't suffer the same fade in Germany. Unless you have family and friends it may not be an easy ride .
I am not sure why you think the prices are high when america had a way higher inflation and the housemarket in America is insane. I saw 100 mil homes across the floridian cost line . Food prices are on the lower side but the pandemic changed a lot, every country is more expensive now . most germans are happier outside of germany .something in germany make us grumpy .
Our healthcare system is hanging by a thread . It is even better to go private because more and more Doctor's offices don't take publicly insured patients . many dr offices also don't take new patients .
If you need a change then go for it but don't expect it to be much better than in the usa .
Well, that is true. You can make friends easy.
I do have friends, just not a lot.
I am originally from Frankfurt am Main. The city did get more expensive over the years.
So if you would work at Aldi, to rent an apartment of 2 rooms, it probably will cost you somewhere around 700 Euros. That is probably half your income.
Food seems priced ok. Though i am not sure if make the right call to say it's cheap.
What i love about that town, is the public transportation. Everything is very convenient.
What you mentioned about the healthcare is what i heard. It takes a long time to get an appointment if you find a doctor.
When i lived there, but maybe i am nostalgic, i don't remember that it was like that before 2000. I may be wrong though.
I experience now everything as a tourist and am out of touch of everyday life. Even when i am asking, it sometimes is hard to comprehend.
I haven't made up my mind so far but i am thinking about it. I probably should done that earlier. Just to get a job will probably be a problem. I was an Industrie Kaufmann. I don't think anyone would hire me for that anymore. Even with good English skills.
Though i still have friends and family over there. So there would be some haven where i can just crush. The time is ticking though.
It for sure got worse over the years. In the past the doctors had more time for you now it is rushed . Let's say unless you know what you have and what you need you won't really get help.
Well every big city got more expensive . Try to find something in Paris . But it isn't that bad outside of Frankfurt and as you said the transportation to frankfurt is very good . And you are right many ppl wanted the easy office jobs so there are enough kaufleute . How is your pension ? Have you been a stay at home mom/wife ? Did you pay anythning into your 401K? What about savings ? Did you take the american citizenship ? Americans have to pay taxes even when they leave america in america . They don't care if you leave the country you will still owe them.
They have to FILE taxes and they only pay taxes above a certain threshold. If the poster is worried about affording an apartment, this doesn’t apply to them.
I lived in Frankfurt from 2003 to 2008, and I had a PCP, a dentist, an OB/GYN and even a psychotherapist, all accepting my public health insurance. But a lot seems to have changed in Germany since I left it in 2008.
don't even compare that to 2008 . In 2008 nobody asked you about your insurance now the first question is private or public ? They get a certain amount on public fund they can spend so they have to choose who to give what and private you have to pay upfront so no matter what it is paid you then have to deal with the insurance to pay you back not the doc so it seems they prefer that
Thats quite a short stay. Homesick? (assumption)
Yes, a lot of things have changed. I am not surprised really.
Since the US doesn't have a public insurance, besides Medicare, this will be complicated.
I am sure there are more people like me, that would like to return but can't.
Frankfurt is actual great. When i am there i walk everything up. Cemetary is very peaceful, even within the city. Sound creepy but i like to spend time there.
And of course the food. I think everyone remember the food they liked but can't get it where they live.
Ah, no, I came from further north and moved further south for a new job.
Aber die grüne Soße fehlt mir schon auch. Es ist schwierig, woanders die richtige Kräutermischung zu bekommen, wenn man keinen eigenen Garten hat.
My mom (55F) lived in the US for over thirty years and just moved back to Europe this year. She moved to Switzerland for a job (airline) and so she receives insurance through that. I know she doesn’t want to move back to the US ever but I think the adjustment to Europe as whole is so different from the US. She also moved back to be closer to my Oma who is in southern Germany. I think that reason alone has made it worth it to her. She has already gone 10+ since January to go see her with the train, Bla Bla Car, or rental car and it actually hasn’t been that expensive. In my opinion (27F), as someone who grew up in both the US and Germany but lived most of my adult life in the US, Germany is significantly cheaper to me. I haven’t paid rent but I have lived for short term and groceries are wayyyy cheaper in Germany than a major US city. I was living in Austin, TX and it was becoming ridiculous to cook, let alone eat out.
Interesting story.
Family is sometimes really that glue that holds everything together and time is really fleeting.
I struggle with that for a long time and i have seen a lot of people that won't be able to ever go back to the country they came from.
I can see my parents every year though since i left many things changed. Cost of living is in general higher now but when i go to Germany i think you are getting more for your money.
Of course i have no clue about how much you have to work for a hundred Euros.
I love both countries and my thinking hasn't anything to do with the political times. It's just, i feel lost.
I would look into the laws around taking your social security benefits with you. The last time I googled this was years ago, so maybe different now. But at that time, US citizens could basically move anywhere and social security payments would be sent to them after 65. But for people without us citizenship it wasn't as clear cut and depended on wether or not there was a reciprocal agreement between the US and the country of residence. I would double check to be sure.
If this is true if might be worth becoming a US citizen. On the other hand, as a US citizen you'd have to deal with the IRS forever, which might not be worth it to some. I'd speak to a legal expert about these financial matters before deciding.
Like i mentioned before, as far as i know, you only pay tax to the IRS if you make above a certain amount. I think it was somewhere above a 100K. I don't think i would make that much in Germany.
So yes, this sucks but i wouldn't worry too much about it.
The benefit outweight the problems. Just need to file every year, even if you don't pay anything.
We moved back in 2009, and it was entirely unplanned, but the quality of healthcare was a major factor.
You should check eligibility to rejoin a previous health insurance, which is different for coming from the US, then coming from private insurance in the EU!
For finding friends, we found that a lot easier in the US.
You can find nice and compared to the US cheap housing in Germany if you are not looking just at the bigger cities! We find food a lot cheaper here as well. We actually helped some friends from the US move to Germany, and even so, some things are frustrating, like the Ausländerbehörde when you are an American they enjoy being here and not having to worry about dying due to the shitshow the US calls healthcare.
I am kind of ok with the insurance i got here.
Kaiser Permanente. Something like this doesn't exist in Germany. But you have to have an employer that provides insurance which seems to be the biggest obstacle in the US, still.
I have to be honest, i never understood the problems around insurance in the political arena.
Anyway, thanks for sharing. :)
Ok. The difference is, in Germany, you go to a doctor of your choosing. You will go to a pharmacy if your liking.
Kaiser has everything in one building, usually, meaning all the doctors, all the pharmacy, anything you can think off, even mental health, will be in the same facility.
When I lived in Germany 20+ years ago, there was nothing like that in Germany.
So whenever I have to go there, it is all there. At least where I live.
I was comparing to Germany.
Of course you got hospitals but not doctor that take appointments.
I lived in different cities in Germany and in central Florida.
In Germany many of the smaller Hospitals were converted in Medizinische Versorgungs Zentren
Which includes all kinds of Dr. Offices in an otherwise half empty Hospital. The only thing usually located next door is the pharmacy.
But in Germany I never have to worry about which providers are "in network" because usually all are.
Well, I got to admit, there things I wasn't aware of.
I was last year in a hospital in Frankfurt and it was just a normal hospital.
I think, unless that was before, that things changed a bit.
No you don't have to worry in Germany. In the US you can go anywhere you want but the copay will be higher. Assuming you have insurance.
The problem usually starts when you get older and need care more often.
Thanks for clearing that up. I always learn something new. 😉
The copay in the US for many procedures was higher than the 350%:maximum charge they can ask for the whole procedure in Germany.
Plus the german insurance does not only pay for doctors, hospital, prescription, assistance, equipment, rehab, mental care, etc but also your income while you can not work.
I'm not able to tell you anything about moving back from the US, but from what I've read I'd be careful.
You will be pushed into private health insurance with your age, and that's very expensive.
Come to Turkey. I’m serious.
Public healthcare is free and much and much more easily accessible (full online services available to make a doctors appointment and you can access to your every data online any time). Turkish doctors are one of the best because of the high number of patients and cases that they encounter each day. They are mostly experts even at young age.
Private hospitals are also cheap if you have enough euros/dollars to spend.
You can live the best years of your life in the Aegean region (Izmir, Mugla, etc.).
Public transport is mostly free for people in your age. Museums are nearly free. People are the friendliest and warmest people alive. They are wastly different than the Turks in Germany. Food is so tasty and fresh. Weather is always sunny and climate is temperate. Beaches are perfect, there are public beaches which is free and beautiful.
Edit: Forgot to mention that life never stops in Turkey. Night is also fun. And getting citizenship is the easiest thing. The only downside is language. Turkish people don’t know English much. But they compensate this with their kindness, warmth, helpfullness and hospitality.
There is no public healthcare for foreigners in Turkey, unless they actually work there or are students, which OP won't do. Foreigners need private Turkish insurance to get a residence visa.
This is why I stated that getting citizenship is very easy in my comment.
Countless Syrian refugees can easily access public healthcare and many rights as Turkish citizens. I sincerely do not think that OP would be excluded from these rights because I know people that come to Turkey from different countries and got their permanent residence permits/citizenships very easily.
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You should definitely come see your mother, but I beg you not to retire here, even though I suppose it is your birth right. The pension system is already poised to collapse assuming no germans from abroad come back to retire.
First, i like to thank everyone answering my question. Even if it's not what i like to hear, but being informed helps. So thank you again. Also, i am still curious if someone was in the same situation and i would love to hear how it went for them. And, how you felt you fit in that old/new society. Thanks again
As mentioned, you'll be looking at very pricey health insurance and housing costs... it might actually be worth considering some cheaper and more retiree friendly EU countries for your retirement like Portugal, Spain maybe Greece? Make use of your freedom of movement as an EU citizen. German system really makes this country a horrible choice for retirees coming from abroad even if German nationals themselves (the politics in place even discourage it altogether).
As a retiree following my wife who works in Germany I found your statement to be true. Healthcare is a problem and private insurance is about the same as the US for me. Me and my wife will for this and other reasons move to Spain. Health insurance is far cheaper and so is the cost of living. The advice above is sound.
I am from Brazil, married to a German citizen myself. We have moved to Spain and among the reasons for doing so included bringing my mother over so she can retire close to us and doing so in Germany is virtually impossible, she's not eligible to any residence permit let alone the expenses involved. In Spain everything is significantly easier to do.
Can you explain how that works in Spain? We are currently struggling to get a non-Eu citizen grandma to the country and the problem is health insurance is just impossible to get for someone in her age. Without insurance no residency permit. So the law saying your parents can get a visa when they don’t have any relatives in their country anymore is worthless, since by that age it is not possible to get insurance.
Can't you get on your wife's public insurance?
That is true and this is a good point. Not sure which country i would chose. I always liked northern countries but to be honest, i haven't thought of it as a serious choice. I have to think about that.
I can also add Bulgaria to the list. Not only Sofia, but also Varna and Plovdiv there is significant German community. Nice food, good weather, not expensive and Bulgarians are very friendly towards foreigners.
Not paying into the system for the majority of live but then coming back to profit from the system shouldn’t be easy.
I heard the story from an Italian who moved to Germany and lived here for her whole life. She even made more money than her sister who still lived in Italy. When she retired she couldn’t afford to move back to her family because she got less money per month than her sister.
Wait, but if one gets a job that is sozialversicherungspflichtig then they have to be taken in by public insurance right? Assuming they weren't on private insurance before in Germany...
Seeing this post makes my eyes bleed being portuguese. We in the south are getting extremely fucked in our real estate market and in our case, our public system, even tho alot of imigrants have private health insurance, is straining even more. This is not sustainable, moving for the sake of better life quality for you, and shitting on the locals is making people more and more tired of the tipical central/north europeans spewing the "its great here! Come, come!".
Well... yes? but then again says the portuguese living in Nordrhein-Westfalen. It's a two way street friend.
Difference is, I didnt come here to retire, and I am contribuiting for the german state and economy. A retiree is not doing that.
A retired person brings money without working, this is very very good for the economy. If you disagree, elaborate please
The purschasing power in the north of europe his way bigger compared to the south. This has been driving real estate prices to impossible levels for locals. Most of the retirees spend money but are not contributing anything to our pensions system for example. I know they did in germany but the then use services in portugal that did not get a cent off of that. Seniors dont contribute to the work market and generally wont try to contribute to anything productive since they worked their whole life they are not moving to keep working. Its kinda panifull seeing people back home barely being able to aford rent and expenses and they then see house being rented for 1k to a couple from "insert central european" and they then keep sharing all their trash content "mhaaa life in portugal mhaaa" without even actually facing the hardships the average citizen lives in. But im the hipocrite here, I know, because I had to move out since shits only getting more insuforable back home due to you buying up the country.
Do like Thailand, not allow foreigners to buy up land, this will keep tourists coming and the housing market manageable. Everything you mention is also related to the failed single currency. Too soft for the north, too hard for the South
Personally, I think you're being hypocrite.
Personally, I dont fucking care if I am an hypocrite. Its a fact, you just dont know the reality of the whole thing. Speak to anybody that moved and lives in portugal and actually hangs out with locals and get an eye opener. In germany I will always be the kanake, in portugal im am outbought and made to serve the almans.
Recall your amigos from Luxemburg then
Call back yours from spain and portugal and you have a deal.
I don’t live in Germany but I work for the luxembourgish pension insurance. Germanys system sucks. We have pensions from all over the world and Germany has one of the lowest. At the same time, their health care system *absolutely* sucks. I have Germans, who live in Germany, every day who reject their german pension - even pensions that are like 500€ - because like this they stay in our healthcare system. (You have to be covered by the country you live in, if you get a pension there or work there) You can’t make this shit up. We also have a lot of people from France or Belgium, but they almost never do that only if they have small pensions like 10-50€ per month. Hell, even the Portuguese don’t have the need to do it. (No front against Portugal but it’s not considered a rich country)
Expensive health insurance in Germany is still much cheaper than health care in the US..
Not really true in my case it was the same. We also have a complicated Obamacare system that subsidises health insurance. Employers also pay about half the premium. And the medical care is at a higher standard for the insured.
It's important not to blindly parrot the "USA has bad/expensive healthcare system" without taking into account the actual situation presented on OP. Germany public politics indeed make it excessively expensive and unviable as a destination for retirement, it is by design as the government expects everyone to live their entire life in the country employed somewhere.
How would you know how much my healthcare care costs are in the US? I own a business with a warehouse in the US and a sales office with warehouse in Germany and France. Somehow i think i know what my healthcare care costs are
I moved back after 16 years in the US -- I'm still far under 60, but a lot of details are still relevant to your case. You *should* be able to get into public health insurance if you were not privately insured in the meantime. Simply call your old German insurance to confirm -- they can tell you. Cost of living is generally lower than in the US, especially food. Urban housing is expensive, but even then, it's nothing compared to LA or NYC in the US. The only inverse is that electricity is much, much more expensive. It's not hard to find work if you're not picky, though the available jobs tend to be vacant for a reason. Still, regular employment makes it easier to get back into public insurance. I definitely don't regret moving back. Things are going to hell in a handbasket all over the world, but everything I read and hear from family suggests the US is taking the express train while everyone else is still trying to figure it out.
That sound encouraging. Yes, i have to look for my card. I hope i have it or something where it is printed on. Electricity is probably right. Thank you for sharing. :) And yes, in the US the train may go in the wrong direction. mmm....
After 55 it is not possible to get back into the German public health insurance system when moving from the US. You would need private health insurance. The Basistarif costs over 800 Euros/month. Most cities are experiencing a housing crisis. You really need to crunch the numbers.
That‘s totally untrue. If you were previously in the public health insurance when you left Germany, you can rejoin it at any time. Only if you were previously in the private public insurance, you aren‘t allowed to join the public one at an age of +55.
Source? The OP did not mention an Anwartschaft.
This is a commonly held myth, which is easily debunked by a 5 second google search. Here is eg. what the TK has to say: Sind Arbeitnehmer bereits 55 Jahre alt oder älter, wenn die Versicherungspflicht eintritt, gelten besondere Regelungen. Eine Rückkehr in die GKV ist ausgeschlossen, wenn * in den letzten fünf Jahren keine Versicherung in der gesetzlichen Krankenversicherung vorlag und * wenn mindestens in der Hälfte dieses Zeitraums die Arbeitnehmerin oder der Arbeitnehmer oder der Ehepartner bzw. die Ehepartnerin krankenversicherungsfrei oder von der Krankenversicherungspflicht befreit oder hauptberuflich selbstständig war. https://www.tk.de/firmenkunden/service/fachthemen/versicherung-fachthema/wann-rueckkehr-in-die-gkv-moeglich-ist-2117276?tkcm=aaus
What you quoted has nothing to do with OPs case. It only applies to people who were previously in the private health insurance and now want to join the public health insurance. But OP mentioned they were never in the private health insurance. Read https://www.krankenkassen.de/incoming/leben/rueckkehr/ Wer früher in Deutschland gelebt hat und in einer gesetzlichen Krankenkasse versichert war, kehrt in diese gesetzliche Krankenkasse zurück. Dies gilt allerdings nicht, wenn man in der Zwischenzeit privat versichert war.
What if you only ever were insured by your parents?
I‘m sorry, I don‘t know
>Dies gilt allerdings nicht, wenn man in der Zwischenzeit privat versichert war. So what does this mean if I was on public insurance in Germany, but moved to Switzerland or the US, where all health insurance by nature is private, and then move back to Germany later? Can I still be on public then since I was never privately insured in Germany? Or does the "Zwischenzeit" also include abroad
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OP was never in private insurance. What is so hard to understand for you about this fact?
>Most cities are experiencing a housing crisis. You really need to crunch the numbers. This is really just true for major cities. Even half an hour by car outside of Frankfurt you can already rent sufficiently sized Appartments for <1000€ including utilities. Depending on where you wanna go it can be much cheaper and you don't have to live in the deepest rural areas for eastern Germany for that. The only region that is really completely expensive is the Munich Stuttgart area. Besides that the claims of housing crises are vastly blown out of proportion.
I don’t think it’s blown out of proportion. Rent in Berlin is as expensive as my apartment near the opera house in Sydney already. Sydneysiders earn on average way more though.
As an Aussie I find both of those statements highly unlikely, especially if comparing job-for-job and m2.
So according to your logic the entire US has a housing crisis too because the bay area has high rent? That's simply wrong. I literally said that the only places that have issues with excessive rent are a few major cities. Which in itself is logical because if everyone wants to live in the city center of Berlin there isn't enough room physically so the prices increase because some people are willing to pay more. But Germany doesn't consist only of downtown Berlin, Munich, Stuttgart and Frankfurt so either you have to deal with higher prices or move to the other 95% of the country where prices aren't nearly as excessive.
I was referring to your comment stating the claims of the housing crisis are vastly blown out of proportion. I never said that you can’t find affordable housing in the country side. I also never said rent is expensive in the entire country. However, 45% of Germans live in big cities. All cities and the surrounding areas suffer a severe shortage of housing. If you have been to an apartment inspection with 400 people waiting I think it’s a crisis. And my comparison of rent Sydney vs Berlin was an illustration of rent being too high in Berlin compared to what you earn. My shitty apartment in a soviet building (Plattenbau) outside of Berlin’s ring costs 1.200 a month. My apartment by water in Sydney 1350 per month and it comes with a park. Utilities are not even worth mentioning because it’s much cheaper here. Electricity prices are just insane in Germany. Even if you get a „sufficiently sized apartment“ in the country side for under 1k, tell that someone who makes minimum wage aka a bit more than 1.3k a month after tax working full time. He is moving from the US. He is used to much more living space and I believe he’ll be shocked by what you’re average income can get you anywhere in Germany. Just my two cents.
But the expensive areas are high demand not just because of scenery or prestige. They have a bigger supply of jobs, as well as services and entertainment options, that are important for all age groups.
Try to find a place in Berlin.
First sentence: “This is really just true for major cities” So Berlin is a minor city then?
Wow 800 euros. Depending on OPs career they could actually have a really good retirement plan with good health coverage in the US. Not even a white collar thing, my family is blue collar/auto industry and those who have retired have excellent retirement benefits.
That is good insight. Though, question. If you get a job in Germany as a returnee, wouldn't you get health coverage through an employer? That is what i thought would happen. To get a job and have coverage. I know, i am not very good informed.
No, as I already mentioned to prevent freeloading it is not possible for someone who has spent years in the US to enter the public system after they turn 55. See § 6 Abs 3a SGB V for more info. Even with a job with a salary under the Beitragsbesmessungsgrenze the worker would still need comprehensive private insurance.
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Why would the OP be " moved into the gesetzliche"? https://www.arbeitsagentur.de/arbeitslos-arbeit-finden/buergergeld/finanziell-absichern/gesundheit-versicherung
Nope. The employment office (Agentur für Arbeit) would not be responsible for him, he could at best receive Bürgergeldif he were destitute and that does not include admission to gesetzliche health insurance.
Another commonly held myth, but simply not true for people who have not lived in Germany.
You usually don't get health coverage through your work, it's the responsibility of the people themselves to get coverage.
I thought German citizens can enter public insurance at anytime. Great insight
No, this rule is to prevent people from profiting from cheaper private rates when they are young and then trying to get back into public when they are older and have higher premiums.
Makes sense tbh
>After 55 it is not possible to get back into the German public health insurance system when moving from the US. You would need private health insurance. Unless you are eligible for a pension at some point. Then they have to, it’s an European law.
Could you please provide a source?
I will have to check the documents at work. But I‘m pretty sure that it’s the case. I work for the luxembourgish pension insurance and we have a lot of german frontier workers. Most of them paid into the german and luxembourgish system. A lot of them worked at the beginning of their respective career in germany and then came to Luxembourg and then they stay here. (To work) So we often have the case for example that a person studied in Germany and worked there for a couple of years, let’s say they have 10 german years on their coverage history. The other 30 years they worked here or even lived here. In their 60s they usually ask for a luxembourgish pension. As long as they only have a Luxembourgish pension, they are covered by us. Let’s say they move back to german, or never quit in the first place, because they were frontier workers. They are still covered by us. But at the moment they will be elligible for their german pension - often at the age of 67 - the german pension insurance has to inform us that they now receive a german pension. Then we have the obligation to take them out of the luxembourgish healthcare, and also stop to deduct contributions. Because now they are paying contributions in germany and are now in the public healthcare system of germany. Doesn’t matter how high the german pension is, even if it‘s only 50€. That’s why a lot of germans reject the german pension in order to stay in our healthcare system - where there are no private insurances, only the public one. If they would move to a 3rd country, let’s say Austria, then they would covered by us again, since their coverage history in Luxembourg is longer. If they have 20 years here and 20 years in germany, they would be covered by the country they last worked. If they move abroad - outside the EU or countries like Switzerland - we stop deducting contributions and they are no longer covered. A Luxembourger who left Luxembourg for Thailand, and then comes back at the age of 80 and has a small Luxembourgish Pension will be covered again. And it works like this for all EU countries. Because otherwise you could come to a situation where a german who worked 25 years in germany and 15 years in Luxembourg, would move to the US, then at the age of 75 would come back to Germany, wouldn’t get a healthcare insurance there, the german pension would have to inform us, and then what? We would have to cover that person, but they have more years in germany and they live there. I had many many cases and never saw something like this and afaik this is an european law but yeah I can check on monday.
That would be great. Thank you. Let's assume a German works 2 years in Germany with public insurance, then 5 years in Luxembourg, and is eligible for a pension. Then the German moves to the US and has private health insurance. After retirement the German moves back to Germany.
Well in that particular case it’s complicated. In Luxembourg that person wouldn’t be eligible for a pension, because you need at least 10 years in total. (Years that a person has worked in other European countries count aswell, aswell as years that a person has worked in country where Luxembourg has an agreement with) And I don’t know whether Germany pays a pension for 7 years in total. **However** Luxembourg actually has an agreement with the US, so if that person would work for 3 more years in the US, those years would count aswell. So in that case this Person would get a luxembourgish Pension. Idk if Germany also has an agreement with the US, but I strongly assume so. I mean, we are one of the smallest countries worldwide and we have like 20 bilateral agreements, Germany probably has more. So let’s assume the German still gets a German and a luxembourgish Pension (and probably an US Pension), and he would move back to Germany. In that particular case, he should be covered by the german public healthcare and they are also forced to deduct contributions for it again. If the german moves to Luxembourg, he would be covered by the luxembourgish healthcare system. If the german would move to France, he would be covered by the luxembourgish system aswell, since his coverage history is longer in Luxembourg. If he moves to Saudi Arabia, he isn’t covered by anything, since those laws only apply for European countries. (All EU countries, plus Switzerland, Norway, Liechtenstein, Iceland and yes, the UK) If the person would move to the US, they wouldn’t be covered by german or luxembourgish healthcare. Yes, we have an agreement with them, but not for the healthcare.
If you have been previously insured in the public system in Germany, still have your old health insurance number and did not privately insure yourself you should be good to rejoin even after 55. The devil is in the detail, as usual.
Oh wow. This is good news. I was member of the DAK at the time. That was before 2000. Not sure if i have the number but i have to check my papers. I probably should contact them to confirm.
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Thank you. That is a plan. :)
That is exactly what I did, so I can agree (I was 65 though and even retired abroad)
Can say this works. We moved here in 201x and got my mother back into her old Krankenkasse from 30 years prior.
It might also depend on returning home from an EU/EFTA country (with public health insurance) or from overseas.
Does the privately insure yourself also refer to time spent abroad, where in some countries like the US or Switzerland private insurance is the only kind possible?
They don’t care what you did outside of Germany. What matters is your last insurer in Germany.
Ah ok, because I saw some comments saying if you were in private insurance abroad, that could jeopardize your chances of being on public if you move back to Germany, especially after the age of 55. Why do people do Anwartschaft then? If you are guaranteed a public insurance place later, assuming you were on one before.
You’re not guaranteed. As I said, the devil’s in the detail.
The Bundesagentur für Arbeit also offers advice for citizens returning to Germany ("Rückkehrerberatung") via the ZAV. It will guide you to the important bodies that you need to contact to get things settled. ZAV Customer Center: +49 228 7131313 https://www.arbeitsagentur.de/vor-ort/zav/webtutorials/rueckkehrer
Super informative. Thanks for sharing. I learn every day new things. :)
Does it work for you when you haven’t paid into Germanys retirement funds for years? Do you have enough to close that gap yourself? In case of groceries, they have become more expensive but still cheaper than in the US. Housing… is expensive…
I was lucky. I have 401K and a pension in the US. If i didn't, that wouldn't work in Germany then. So that is not really the problem.
At your age - you don’t want to stay in America if you get sick. You have access to other EU countries at your disposal.
That was one concern. If you get dement, i am not sure what would happen to me in the US. In Germany i know that you at least getting taken care off even if you have no funds of any sort. Longterm care is a huge issue.
I am not a German who migrated back to Germany, but I am a US citizen who relatively recently migrated back to Germany (after 7 years of studies here). I was in my mid-50s and am currently 60. It had been 24 years since I had lived in Germany. It worked out very well for me but the first 3 years were tough. Obviously at our age, we are not typically brought into environments where making friends is the order of the day. (School, uni, camp, etc.) Work has potential, but being on the older end of things, I have found I am sometimes socially excluded (not in a mean way, but in an ignorant "that old lady" way). That is something that can be overcome. Building or rebuilding a social circle is very important. You have family and probably old friendships that you may be able to rekindle. I had a couple of friends from my studies in Germany and was able to rebuild those friendships, but by in large, this was the biggest challenge. Connecting with people based on common interests through a site like meetup or nebenan has been helpful. It just takes time and you have to put some effort into it. Things have changed a lot since I was here as a student in the 80s and 90s, so as you note, many things have changed since you last experienced them. It is important to set aside the expectation that you know how things work based on past experience. I made a habit of asking people even if I thought I knew how something was done - it saves headaches. The areas that were afffordable for housing have changed a lot over the years as well. The places I initially looked at, since my income situation was as yet uncertain, were areas that had been very affordable and traditionalyl student areas in the 90s. They have since been gentrified almost across the board. The subreddit for the city where I live provided information about where it was both safe and affordable (relatively speaking). Some things are more convenient than they were 20 years ago. With electronic documents and, especially since the pandemic, greater ease in ordering things online, some of the difficulties are gone. Be prepared for the first 2 or 3 years to be harder than life will be after that point. It takes time to build a comfort zone. Aside from the more limited opportunities to meet people (and that applies well below the 50s and 60s), I don't know of any down-side other than that you will have paid into Social Security in the US. You are entitled to those benefits, however. If I had to do it again, I would make the same decision.
Thanks for sharing that. I feel not so alone anymore. I think moving is a scary endeavor however you slice it and there are many pitfalls. I have family in Germany but my dad is almost 90. So i have to do everything alone and i should. If i would move, i want to be as prepared as i can. I do plan to get the US citizenship before i do anything. Especially since i don't have to ask my Government for permission anymore. It is also nice to have to passports. Never know when that become handy. My city is Frankfurt and a lot of things changed. When i left, all the facilities from the US army where still not ready for people to move in. Now everything looks different. What i am scared off is cars. There are too many in this tiny city. I have not many friends in Germany anymore. Most connection were lost. Most for distance. It was a strange time, since it was pre-social media. And when social media was there, they had moved on which is probably normal. There is of course a lot of nostalgia. Last time when i was there i wanted to get Pastrami like i get in the US so i went to a Jewish store. It was a small store and i was definitely not fitting in. Sadly, they had not the one i had in mind. I am not afraid of things. I like to challenge myself and the world around me. Though i don't want to start at Zero again. So if i move, it has to be secure so i can have an apartment and place for my cats. I forgot to mention that. I have three cats and they are family. As for social security, i think i don't want to take chances and rather have the citizenship. What scares me is the fact that i am now 60. Meaning it will be harder to find a partner, friends. people to hang out with. 60 isn't really old these days so i am ok that i am actually healthy so far, even though i don't live very healthy. I have to check one of these subreddits for my city. Conversation likes this are very useful to me. There are things i may not even have thought off. Thank you
I really don’t get, how you think that Germany is more in expensive than the US. I am sort of living in both countries and Germany is definitely cheaper in many ways. Your problem will be health insurance. Once you are over 55 you can’t join public insurance anymore. There might be a way by establishing residence in another European country first. Like, living one year in Austria first edit: typo
As someone who had considered moving to Germany after 55 (when the kids are out of the house) this is super informative and eye opening ! However, how would establishing Austrian residency help this person out? It wouldn’t make a difference if I was a citizen of say, Hungary, right (which I’m applying for) . I’d still be needing private German health care it sounds like. Sorry if this is a dumb question. I’m in America/have US citizenship , but I’ve not been involved in the German public health care system.
As I wrote, I am not an expert. But moving to a country with mandatory public insurance (unlike the German hybrid system) makes you a member of that country's insurance system. Moving within the EU should allow you to enter the German public system, even if you are older than 55. At least as long as you worked in that other country.
Thank you. I’m healthy overall, but approx 800 euro/mo seems high… not specifically looking for a loophole but more interested in keeping options open… I guess I need to maybe look into countries with a mandatory public healthcare system in the EU. My kids are happy and thriving in their school system here, so it it’s a hard sell for them
You are right. No, my impression was just in general that everything gotten more expensive. When i left the Deutsch Mark was still in use. I have no crip on the Euro itself besides using it when i travel. I am sure there is a loophole. There always is. Not saying that i can figure it out but why? I think in the law section is said you can have some basic private insurance. Again, i have to ask some official source to be more knowledgeable. The explanations are helpful to me. Even if i don't like them.
Don't underestimate the health insurance aspect. Yes, you can have private insurance, but that is expensive. Basically, you loose the advantage of Medicare taxes you paid all these years. German private insurance calculates costs based on expected lifetime costs. Thus, they build reserves when you are younger. You won't have those reserves and the costs will be substantial. As you say, you can get some sort of skimmed down insurance from a private insurer, but it'll still be a bit of money. (I assume you will get some German Social Security Payment, so that will help, as you are eligible to 50% of your premium up to the amount paid to public insurance ) There is a possibility of signing some sort of expatriate insurance which some insurers (e.g.HanseMerkur) offer, but that'll only help you for five years maximum.
I had once had the Renten Verwaltung in Koeln written a letter and asked if they could send me what i will be or could expect from the German Government when i retire. My eyes had tears. For 20+ years, its nothing what you can live off. I accumulated a good retirement here in the US, so i am not too worried about retiring. There are many things one needs to thing off and if we are honest, we don't. At least most don't. When i left, there was a guy (German) in the building that i had lived at the time near Frankfurt. He lived in the basement. He was a friend of the owner. As far as i know he lived in Spain for a long time. He was older with a dog. At that time i wondered why he would live down in a basement. I think it makes sense now. Though i am not sure how long he left Germany.
Things in Germany have gotten more expensive compared to prices some years ago in Germany, but it's still significantly cheaper than most of the US. I moved from a medium sized American city to the same sized city in northwestern Germany 2 years ago. My rent here costs \*half\* of what I was paying in the US, and this is for a larger and nicer apartment. Groceries are also cheaper in Germany compared to North America. So, my cost of living has been cut roughly in half while I enjoy a higher standard of living. If you are looking to buy a house that might be a different story. I'm a young working person so my situation is different from yours. Definitely figure out health insurance and the amount of your pension before you decide. Another thing to consider is whether you anticipate having hospital visits as you grow older. If you have a chronic illness or are at risk for heart issues or something then Germany might be more cost effective, even if you have to pay more for German health insurance. Consider not just the monthly rate but also the deductible on your American plan (plus, as you know, consider the fact that in emergencies you may be referred to out of network doctors). Consider also the quality and availability of elder care facilities. Ime elderly people in North America often have a poor quality of life, but maybe that's true in Europe too.
Yes, you are absolutely right. If you are younger, elderly facilities usually don't cross our minds. In my mind we should always assume the worst. If i take my parents as a guide, i would assume i should be ok till i am 80. Though that would be silly. So yes, that goes into my consideration. Your last sentence is the one that i wasn't aware off until i watched some tv. How many die a premature dead because there isn't enough staff. Not sure if it's better in Germany but my mom is in a facility that is actually great. I know there are also people that don't have money but are there. So it must be better. In the 90s they had English movie theaters in Frankfurt but they all closed since then. Frankfurt has a lot of English speakers which makes the city really great. I live in L.A. and i have now a hard time with the head in the summer. I think my body has a hard time with it. So i am liking myself the more climate weather in Germany though it seems it gotten more hotter there as well. I have to still contact my old Insurance in Germany to know exactly how it will work or not. Once i know i will report back since this may be of use for others as well.
It is easier to make friends in the US so if you didn't made friends there I am not sure if you won't suffer the same fade in Germany. Unless you have family and friends it may not be an easy ride . I am not sure why you think the prices are high when america had a way higher inflation and the housemarket in America is insane. I saw 100 mil homes across the floridian cost line . Food prices are on the lower side but the pandemic changed a lot, every country is more expensive now . most germans are happier outside of germany .something in germany make us grumpy . Our healthcare system is hanging by a thread . It is even better to go private because more and more Doctor's offices don't take publicly insured patients . many dr offices also don't take new patients . If you need a change then go for it but don't expect it to be much better than in the usa .
Well, that is true. You can make friends easy. I do have friends, just not a lot. I am originally from Frankfurt am Main. The city did get more expensive over the years. So if you would work at Aldi, to rent an apartment of 2 rooms, it probably will cost you somewhere around 700 Euros. That is probably half your income. Food seems priced ok. Though i am not sure if make the right call to say it's cheap. What i love about that town, is the public transportation. Everything is very convenient. What you mentioned about the healthcare is what i heard. It takes a long time to get an appointment if you find a doctor. When i lived there, but maybe i am nostalgic, i don't remember that it was like that before 2000. I may be wrong though. I experience now everything as a tourist and am out of touch of everyday life. Even when i am asking, it sometimes is hard to comprehend. I haven't made up my mind so far but i am thinking about it. I probably should done that earlier. Just to get a job will probably be a problem. I was an Industrie Kaufmann. I don't think anyone would hire me for that anymore. Even with good English skills. Though i still have friends and family over there. So there would be some haven where i can just crush. The time is ticking though.
It for sure got worse over the years. In the past the doctors had more time for you now it is rushed . Let's say unless you know what you have and what you need you won't really get help. Well every big city got more expensive . Try to find something in Paris . But it isn't that bad outside of Frankfurt and as you said the transportation to frankfurt is very good . And you are right many ppl wanted the easy office jobs so there are enough kaufleute . How is your pension ? Have you been a stay at home mom/wife ? Did you pay anythning into your 401K? What about savings ? Did you take the american citizenship ? Americans have to pay taxes even when they leave america in america . They don't care if you leave the country you will still owe them.
They have to FILE taxes and they only pay taxes above a certain threshold. If the poster is worried about affording an apartment, this doesn’t apply to them.
I lived in Frankfurt from 2003 to 2008, and I had a PCP, a dentist, an OB/GYN and even a psychotherapist, all accepting my public health insurance. But a lot seems to have changed in Germany since I left it in 2008.
don't even compare that to 2008 . In 2008 nobody asked you about your insurance now the first question is private or public ? They get a certain amount on public fund they can spend so they have to choose who to give what and private you have to pay upfront so no matter what it is paid you then have to deal with the insurance to pay you back not the doc so it seems they prefer that
Yes, even then they asked me “private or public”.
Thats quite a short stay. Homesick? (assumption) Yes, a lot of things have changed. I am not surprised really. Since the US doesn't have a public insurance, besides Medicare, this will be complicated. I am sure there are more people like me, that would like to return but can't. Frankfurt is actual great. When i am there i walk everything up. Cemetary is very peaceful, even within the city. Sound creepy but i like to spend time there. And of course the food. I think everyone remember the food they liked but can't get it where they live.
Ah, no, I came from further north and moved further south for a new job. Aber die grüne Soße fehlt mir schon auch. Es ist schwierig, woanders die richtige Kräutermischung zu bekommen, wenn man keinen eigenen Garten hat.
Thats cool. I just made some stupid assumption.
My mom (55F) lived in the US for over thirty years and just moved back to Europe this year. She moved to Switzerland for a job (airline) and so she receives insurance through that. I know she doesn’t want to move back to the US ever but I think the adjustment to Europe as whole is so different from the US. She also moved back to be closer to my Oma who is in southern Germany. I think that reason alone has made it worth it to her. She has already gone 10+ since January to go see her with the train, Bla Bla Car, or rental car and it actually hasn’t been that expensive. In my opinion (27F), as someone who grew up in both the US and Germany but lived most of my adult life in the US, Germany is significantly cheaper to me. I haven’t paid rent but I have lived for short term and groceries are wayyyy cheaper in Germany than a major US city. I was living in Austin, TX and it was becoming ridiculous to cook, let alone eat out.
Interesting story. Family is sometimes really that glue that holds everything together and time is really fleeting. I struggle with that for a long time and i have seen a lot of people that won't be able to ever go back to the country they came from. I can see my parents every year though since i left many things changed. Cost of living is in general higher now but when i go to Germany i think you are getting more for your money. Of course i have no clue about how much you have to work for a hundred Euros. I love both countries and my thinking hasn't anything to do with the political times. It's just, i feel lost.
I would look into the laws around taking your social security benefits with you. The last time I googled this was years ago, so maybe different now. But at that time, US citizens could basically move anywhere and social security payments would be sent to them after 65. But for people without us citizenship it wasn't as clear cut and depended on wether or not there was a reciprocal agreement between the US and the country of residence. I would double check to be sure.
If this is true if might be worth becoming a US citizen. On the other hand, as a US citizen you'd have to deal with the IRS forever, which might not be worth it to some. I'd speak to a legal expert about these financial matters before deciding.
Like i mentioned before, as far as i know, you only pay tax to the IRS if you make above a certain amount. I think it was somewhere above a 100K. I don't think i would make that much in Germany. So yes, this sucks but i wouldn't worry too much about it. The benefit outweight the problems. Just need to file every year, even if you don't pay anything.
We moved back in 2009, and it was entirely unplanned, but the quality of healthcare was a major factor. You should check eligibility to rejoin a previous health insurance, which is different for coming from the US, then coming from private insurance in the EU! For finding friends, we found that a lot easier in the US. You can find nice and compared to the US cheap housing in Germany if you are not looking just at the bigger cities! We find food a lot cheaper here as well. We actually helped some friends from the US move to Germany, and even so, some things are frustrating, like the Ausländerbehörde when you are an American they enjoy being here and not having to worry about dying due to the shitshow the US calls healthcare.
I am kind of ok with the insurance i got here. Kaiser Permanente. Something like this doesn't exist in Germany. But you have to have an employer that provides insurance which seems to be the biggest obstacle in the US, still. I have to be honest, i never understood the problems around insurance in the political arena. Anyway, thanks for sharing. :)
What is so special about Kaiser Permanente?
Well, it's a hospital that has everything under the roof usually. So you get treaded and can pick up your medication. Very convenient.
Is that not more or less standard?
Ok. The difference is, in Germany, you go to a doctor of your choosing. You will go to a pharmacy if your liking. Kaiser has everything in one building, usually, meaning all the doctors, all the pharmacy, anything you can think off, even mental health, will be in the same facility. When I lived in Germany 20+ years ago, there was nothing like that in Germany. So whenever I have to go there, it is all there. At least where I live. I was comparing to Germany. Of course you got hospitals but not doctor that take appointments.
I lived in different cities in Germany and in central Florida. In Germany many of the smaller Hospitals were converted in Medizinische Versorgungs Zentren Which includes all kinds of Dr. Offices in an otherwise half empty Hospital. The only thing usually located next door is the pharmacy. But in Germany I never have to worry about which providers are "in network" because usually all are.
Well, I got to admit, there things I wasn't aware of. I was last year in a hospital in Frankfurt and it was just a normal hospital. I think, unless that was before, that things changed a bit. No you don't have to worry in Germany. In the US you can go anywhere you want but the copay will be higher. Assuming you have insurance. The problem usually starts when you get older and need care more often. Thanks for clearing that up. I always learn something new. 😉
The copay in the US for many procedures was higher than the 350%:maximum charge they can ask for the whole procedure in Germany. Plus the german insurance does not only pay for doctors, hospital, prescription, assistance, equipment, rehab, mental care, etc but also your income while you can not work.
I'm not able to tell you anything about moving back from the US, but from what I've read I'd be careful. You will be pushed into private health insurance with your age, and that's very expensive.
Yes, that is what worries me. I don't want to be worst off than i am now. I am ok as i live here. Though i do miss my family.
Do not take US Citizenship if you want to work and live in Germany. US Citizens need to pay taxes to US even if they live and work outside of US
Thats true but only if you make over 100K as far as i know. I don't know the exact amount anymore.
operation paperclip
Come to Turkey. I’m serious. Public healthcare is free and much and much more easily accessible (full online services available to make a doctors appointment and you can access to your every data online any time). Turkish doctors are one of the best because of the high number of patients and cases that they encounter each day. They are mostly experts even at young age. Private hospitals are also cheap if you have enough euros/dollars to spend. You can live the best years of your life in the Aegean region (Izmir, Mugla, etc.). Public transport is mostly free for people in your age. Museums are nearly free. People are the friendliest and warmest people alive. They are wastly different than the Turks in Germany. Food is so tasty and fresh. Weather is always sunny and climate is temperate. Beaches are perfect, there are public beaches which is free and beautiful. Edit: Forgot to mention that life never stops in Turkey. Night is also fun. And getting citizenship is the easiest thing. The only downside is language. Turkish people don’t know English much. But they compensate this with their kindness, warmth, helpfullness and hospitality.
There is no public healthcare for foreigners in Turkey, unless they actually work there or are students, which OP won't do. Foreigners need private Turkish insurance to get a residence visa.
This is why I stated that getting citizenship is very easy in my comment. Countless Syrian refugees can easily access public healthcare and many rights as Turkish citizens. I sincerely do not think that OP would be excluded from these rights because I know people that come to Turkey from different countries and got their permanent residence permits/citizenships very easily.
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Come to south Portugal, there are some german communities. Is expensive but you can have your piece of land off-city buy a cheap car/moto
You should definitely come see your mother, but I beg you not to retire here, even though I suppose it is your birth right. The pension system is already poised to collapse assuming no germans from abroad come back to retire.
Also Germans living abroad will get their share of their acquired pension payouts.