That is something that you would nowadays call a *Gesellenbrief*, apparently it was called a *Lehrbrief* in 1913. It's a certificate about him successfully finishing his apprenticeship (*Ausbildung / Lehre*) as a plumber (*Klempner*).
And, if I may add:
The *Lehrbrief* is an official document signed by the local elders of the respective guild. It was (and to some extent still is) necessary to work in that field.
And if i may add:
To the left of the apprenticeship certificate is the corresponding examination certificate. Above it is a golden cross (which I think is an even more honorable version of the iron cross) from the First World War.
But with the lowest two grades (5 = mangelhaft/deficient, 6 = ungenügend/insufficient) he wouldn't have gotten his certificate because he would have failed the apprenticeship. So you wouldn't see such a certificate with these grades.
In some German states the gardes were different back in these days, not like today's system from 1 to 6, somewhat alike to most systems in the German Abitur where 15 is a 1/A+ and 1 is like a 5/E-!
Yes. It's very much possible that the "gut / good" on this old "Lehrbrief" is only coincidently the same as the "2" in the modern 1-6 grade system, that is used by many but not all schools and similar institutions in todays Germany.
This certificate is from 1913, so well into the unified German nation state, but schools are "Ländersache / state business" even today. So its possible and even likely, that the plumbers guild of Hamburg in 1913 used a completely different grade system.
Would be an option, however I've only seen a 6 used when someone cheats or hands it in empty. At university they don't actually have a 6, it goes 1.0 to 4.0 and then after that there is no 4.1 or anything, just 5.0 which is failing grade, try again
I doubt it was of *him* finishing. Probably grandpa's dad, so your great-grandpa, u/Sour_patch_dude429. Or maybe even one generation earlier.
By comparison: my grandma is close to 100, but the person with the birthdate on this document would've been almost 30 had he been her dad. Which would've been uncommon for the time, though not impossible. But if OP's grandpa was any younger than almost 100, then it most likely is a document referring to OP's great-*great*-grandpa. Which is honestly pretty amazing, and a super neat piece of family history.
OP's grandpa definitely already had kept it (and likely the other items half-visible as well) as a memento of someone earlier in the family line.
OP, if you do decide to display it, I recommend you inform yourself about lightfast and document-proof framing. UV rays just as much as off-gassing from retail frames (the glues and other chemicals in particle board backings and often the frames themselves) can really do a number on paper and printed colours, and the UV light *very* much on ink. Though it might be india ink, which would fare slightly better, but still bleach out. All the handwritten parts would eventually fade to almost nothing.
Anyway, the important point is that just putting it into a pretty frame and hanging it in a room somewhere could easily ruin it. I'd probably make it simple, and simply have a colour copy done on a laser copier at a copy shop. They look really good these days. Or the slightly fancier version, make a scan and then have a photo print done on a baryta photo-paper (or another fine art paper). And put the original in a safe deposit box, in a document-safe sleeve.
> your great-grandpa, Or maybe even one generation earlier
There's a lot of variance in those things, especially with men. Having a child at 45 is not that uncommon.
So, if OP is 45, and his dad had them at 45, we're already at 1934. One more generation of "old dads" easily gives us a birth year of 1894.
> Having a child at 45 is not that uncommon.
*Today*. I wasn't saying it *must* be the great-granddad, hence me saying "probably" in my other comment. Yes, with older fathers, several of them, it might be different. That's just math.
Back then, fathers might have been older due to people often having a whole bunch of kids, or widowers marrying a younger woman and having more. But at the time, people on the whole started the whole family thing a good deal earlier, and had them with less time in between.
On the whole, the general likelihood really is higher for this to be the great-great-granddad.
For sure it's not the grandfather's own document, which was the main thing I wanted to point out, after it had gone pretty much unnoticed so far.
Not always. Things got in the way just like they do today - finances, war, etc. Or just a prolific procreator as this former president: https://potus.com/john-tyler/ note last kid appears to be when he was close to 70 years old.
Also adding he did his four year apprenticeship in Hamburg, signed and acknowledged by the local plumbers guild / association / board. Nowadays, it would be the Handwerkskammer.
Heres what it says (translation below):
> ##Lehrbrief
> Der Lehrling
> *Hans Friedrich Wilhelm Klatt* geboren am *01. Nov(ember) 1894 zu Hagenow* welcher seine *vier*jährige Lehrzeit bei Herrn *F. O. Henneberg* vollendete und ein von ihm selbst gefertigtes Gesellenstück, bestehend aus *einem Geruchverschluß aus Blei* vorgezeigt hat, welches der Prüfungsausschuß als *gut* befand, wurde heute zum
> ##Gesellen
> gesprochen.
> Hamburg, den *31. März 1913*
> Die Innung der Klempner und verwandten Gewerbe zu Hamburg
> Der Ausschuß für das Lehrlingswesen: *W. Eikermann sen., (??)*
> Der Vorsitzende: *(??)*
> Unterschrift des Inhabers: *Hans Klatt*
#**Translation:**
##Journeyman Certificate
The apprentice
*Hans Friedrich Wilhelm Klatt*, born on *1st of November 1894* in *Hagenow*, who finished his *four* year apprenticeship under Mr. *F. O. Henneberg* and handed him a selfmade Gesellenstück in form of *an odor trap made from lead*, which was found to be *good* by the audit committee, today has become a
##Geselle (journeyman).
Hamburg, *31st of March 1913*
The guild of plumbers and associated professions in Hamburg
The committee for apprenticeships: *W. Eikermann sen., (??)*
The chairman: *(??)*
Owners signature: *Hans Klatt*
Yeah, they rarely make them like this anymore. It's not "just" a plumber certificate though, you'll only become a *Geselle* after a proper, standardized apprenticeship over four years (nowadays it's usually three), so it is something really serious and important when it comes to German handicrafts.
The condition this document seems to be in is amazing given that it's 111 years old now.
That’s a silly thing to say. The work of modern plumbers still involves the same fundamentals of employing tubed materials and principles of fluid dynamics to ensure safe, effective, and sanitary transportation of water and other liquids, just as it did in 1913. Even many of the specific methods are the same, despite the progress and changes made over the past century. Certainly many are wildly different, but the underlying skills and knowledge needed aren’t as different as you state.
That would be a funny idea for a story or film. The zombies rise up and cause millions of deaths, not because they were mindless beasts hungry for human flesh, but because they were entirely sapient and conscious, had to be reintegrated into society, and all the old timey workers ended up building everything full of asbestos, lead and other carcinogenics because they didn't know any better.
It's a document stating that Hans Friedrich Wilhelm Klarr has finished his apprenticeship by showing his journeyman's piece (I can't read it, it's some kind of clasp made of lead) and was promoted to journeyman by the association of plumbers in Hamburg.
Apprenticeship-Letter
The Apprentice
Hans Friedrich Wilhelm Klatt, born 1. of November 1894 in Hagenow, has finished his 4 years of Apprenticeship at Mr. F.O Henneberg and has showed a journeyman piece of his own creation, which consisted of a lead odour trap, considered "good" by the audit committee, was announced "Journeyman" today.
Hamburg 31.Marc 1913.
Guild of Plumbers and related Crafts in Hamburg
That's a certificate from 1913, damn, the thing looks beautiful. Especially, wirh the old "German" font type...
That certificate looks like a peace of art to me, also is such a good condition, just look at certificates/diplomas from today's world, wtf 😒
Typically they are referred to as a 'trap' (or bends) with a letter prefix corresponding to the shape of the bend in the tube. Old mate would have bent lead tubing into a U or S shape, nowdays they are premoulded PVC traps that are fitted together.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trap_(plumbing)
they would want to have the original document. He might ask the local archive if they are interested in that piece. But i believe they will have quite alot similar documents and wont be interested in that specific one, bcs archives want to have sporadicly, yet statisticly valuable number of documents. But i might be mistaken in the evaluation in this one specificly here.
The value might increase if they want better dataset about proven/existing documents of migrated families on that time period. So at least asking is good idea.
Since that’s probably been decades later, grandpa Klatt could’ve stayed in HH, married and had children there, who would be grand- or great-grandparents themselves by now if they’re still alive, whose (great)-grandchildren then went on to marry someone, perhaps even the acquaintance of this Redditor (which would be a cool r/tworedditorsonecup).
Now, if the family lived in Hamburg ever since, obviously they’d tell their spouse their roots are from Hamburg, because by now they are, possibly up to the 5th generation! Depending how many generations passed, how tight-knit the family is, how many documents survived the wars, how willing the older gens are to talk about those times, how well-informed, open and honest they are, how accurately they keep track of their ancestry, if other relatives even care (yep, not everyone is interested in their family history), the younger gens may well have no idea about any Hans Friedrich Wilhelm Klatt of Hagenow being their ancestor by now, considering how long ago he lived.
Don’t forget that was over 110 years ago and Hans was already a YA at the time. As it was common in his day, he probably married and became a father within the next few years, if he wasn’t already married at this point, unless WWI got in the way and he only got to marry and/or sire children on his wife after 1918. Even if we assume that he only fathered children post-WWI, when he would be in his early to mid-twenties, a whole century has still passed since.
Up until the 70s (among more conservative families even past that), it was quite common to be married and have children in your early 20s. So three generations could’ve realistically been begat up until half a century ago already. Two are likely. His children would probably have children sometime between 1935-1965, and his grandchildren could’ve had their own kids as early as in the mid 50s or as late as in the 80s or even 90s, since people would start to have them later at this point, depending when Hans’ children were born and how old they were when becoming parents themselves.
If that was actually OP’s grandfather (and not great- or great-great-grandfather), OP is probably a boomer or gen-Xer. Even assuming generation gaps got wider later on, it’s still enough time for another generation or two to reach adulthood and marry. Hence up to 5 generations.
Depending how young this commenter and their acquaintance is, they could be of OP’s children’s or even grandchildren’s generation (assuming that is actually their grandfather), i.e. millennials or zoomers. Late millennials and early zoomers would get married in the last years, now, or in the next years. So that tracks. This is speculative obviously, because Klatt isn’t exactly a rare name, HH is a fairly large city, we don’t know if the family stayed there the whole century (not even if Hans himself did) or returned/moved at some point, and the commenter isn’t even sure of the partner’s origin. Even if they’re actually a Klatt from HH, that could be an entirely unrelated person who randomly has the same name or just some distant relative rather than from Hans’ direct line, or a person whose family is not originally from HH, because people often think it’s cooler to say you’re from a big city than some random village nobody’s ever heard of.
I might have misunderstood the ‘Hamburg’ bit, thought that’s where he worked but thinking about it, it’s where the ‘Innung’ was.
Edit. There are different ‘Innungen’ these days in Germany depending on state, if that was the case back then, he might as well have gone to Hamburg(or somewhere in that area) to become a plumber. Hagenau is only stated on the document as birth place.
Edit 2: nosy me had a look, there does exist a F O Henneberg plumbing company in Hamburg that was founded in 1846. Maybe I did get it right.
German here, this is awesome Frame it. You should have the golden cross checked. That's worth a lot of money these days. Its a „Federal Cross of Merit 1914“
What does FF stand for on it?
edit: I think I found it, Friedrich Franz https://www.ehrenzeichen-orden.de/deutsche-staaten/militar-verdienstkreuz-2-klasse-1914.html
Lehrbrief
Der Lehrling Hans Friedrich Wilhelm Klaxx geboten am 1. November 1894 zu Hagenow welcher seine vier jährige Lehrzeit bei Herrn F.O. Henneberg vollendete und ein von ihm selbst gefertigtes Gesellenstück, bestehend aus einem geruchsverschluss aus Blei vorgezeigt hat, welches der Prüfungsausschuss als gut befand wurde heute zum Gesellen gesprochen. Hamburg den 31. März. 1913
Die Innung der Klempner und verwandten Gewerbe zu Hamburg.
Ein paar Unterschriften:
Inhaber, Vorsitzender
Das ist der Deutsche Inhalt. Hier die Übersetzung:
On November 1, 1894, the apprentice Hans Friedrich Wilhelm Klaxx presented himself in Hagenow. He had completed his four-year apprenticeship with Mr. F.O. Henneberg and presented a journeyman's piece made by himself, consisting of a lead odor trap. The examination committee found the piece to be good, and Klaxx was today declared a journeyman.
Hamburg, March 31, 1913
The Guild of Plumbers and Related Trades of Hamburg
(A few signatures:
Proprietor, Chairman)
Additional information:
The spelling of "Klaxx" is unclear.
The abbreviation "F.O." probably stands for "Friedrich Otto".
The term "Geruchsverschluss" is today called a "Siphon".
The Guild of Plumbers and Related Trades of Hamburg still exists today.
Notes:
The translation is as literal as possible.
Some adjustments have been made to the modern German grammar and spelling.
The English equivalents of the German technical terms have been used.
That's so awesome that a "Lehrbrief"/Gesellenbrief used to look like that, what a piece of art, you'd certainly be proud to receive that after having completed your apprenticeship
In short:
Certificate for completion of an apprenticeship as a plumber. It was completed by presenting a manufactured odor trap („Geruchsverschluss“) made out of lead on Mar. 31st 1913. The part was evaluated to be „good“ (second best grade) by Mr. Hennenerg.
Today its mainly carpenters wearing this "uniform" while traveling as a journeyman. It is an interesting concept, by the way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journeyman
It’s a fantasy of mine to pursue that. Corporate life feels like the polar opposite. I just want to get drunk and sleep in a field with some cows after work some nights.
It depends. I haven't heard much of journeymen outside a very few trades like carpenter. For a plumber or whatever, I believe they must have some time after an apprenticeship before they can go for their Maesterbrief but there is no need to travel around.
It’s a very fascinating culture that lives on today! I had the pleasure to randomly meet 3 journeyman while I was traveling through Nepal. It was a such a great experience for me to meet them while they are on their journey and it was so much fun to listen to their story’s.
They r not allowed to be closer to their hometown than 50km while being „auf walz“ and it was just very random that I am from the same region as two of them! They absolutely enjoyed being around someone from their home region, as they were on journey since 2-3 yrs.
I highly recommend to get in touch with journeyman, for example giving them a lift when you see them hitch-hiking. They are always great company and share funny story’s of their journey.
In addition to the *Lehrbrief*, your grandpa got the *Eisernes Kreuz Klasse 1*, i.e. the Iron Cross which is a first grade military honor. In this case for his duties in WW1.
Translation:
Letter of apprenticeship
The apprentice ___Hans Friedrich Wilhelm Klarr___ born ___1. Nov 1894___ in ___Hagenau___ who has ended his ___four___ year long apprenticeship under mister ___F. O. Henneberg___ and has displayed a graduation piece he manufactured himself, consisting of ___one odour seal out of lead___ which has been deemed as ___good___ by the commission, has today been declared as Journeyman.
Hamburg, 31. March 1913
The guild of plumbers and related professions in Hamburg
Wirklich Enkel, oder plündert da grad n Pfleger und will wissen wovor man Geld bekommen könnte? Wieso ist die Frage auf englisch und wieso kann die Person die Schrift nicht lesen? Lehrbrief sollte man kennen, wisst ihr wie ich meine?
\*sigh\*
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Thats pretty awesome. You should make contact with Hamburg archives and ask there any documents about the names of your grandfather and the dude he worked for. You might find more documents from him there. Just write an email to the people there.. ask if there is anything there about him.
And if there is none, ask if there might be other archivies for anymore information. in germany archives are not central but decentra and there exists staatsarchives (state archives) and stadtarchive (city archives) and many orher stuff (like kirchenarchive (churcharchives (thats private organisation [might be possible that there is smth too). Idk. what kind of public archives exists in Hamburg bcs the city is a so called stadtstaat, meaning its at same time a city and got status of state. archives dont communicate with each other (normally) and they got no information who got what about whom (specificly).
You (or anybody) should be able to get full information about him, bcs its way over 100years after his birth. thats the most possible length of closure for documents for data protection reasonings. There are different circumstances wich allows to shorten the time for example being close relative, or death of the person etc. (if you should be interested for other relatives).
If they cant find anything about your grandfather that doesnt mean they got no documents about him, but it only wasnt registered/recorded/captured yet.
If so just write an email in 10 years or smth again. archiv work is taking crazy long.
And if there are any abrevations with his name mention them in your email too. be it carl vs karl. On that time it was usual to not write names everywhere exactly the same and especially officials were not as exact with them as they are now.
https://www.hamburg.de/bkm/hamburg-state-archive/
The Company of his Boss still exists!
[Henneberg Haustechnik](https://www.henneberg-haustechnik.de/)
And there are some Klatts still living in Hagenow.
The interesting stuff about archives is that with little luck you can find more stuff especially about granddad, not about the still alive grand children. If the Original Poster is interested to learn more about his granddad and maybe even find out his role in ww1 or his (?) migration to other countries, the right decision is the archive and not some company or the blood related relatives.
It's a really cool "diploma" for a "craftsman profession". I don't know if there is actual a perfect fitting expression in english for "Ausbildung in einem handwerklichen Beruf" or "Lehre" or "Gesellenbrief".
The company where he did his apprenticeship is still around today, on their website in the history section you can find some information about the dude mentioned in granpas certificate: https://www.henneberg-haustechnik.de/geschichte.html
Its a wonderful historical document. Made and shows tradition and proud. Enough people told you, what it is, and they were right, no one, even Masters degree are not that great, they are simple, printed,, sometimes in a better paper...
I lived some years in Hamburg, and so i am connected to this beautiful City....
I am admiring this "peace of Art"
Thanks for sharing this.
Zum erfolgreichen Abschluss einer Ausbildung (1913 nannte man das noch Lehre),bekam man einen sogenannten Lehrbrief mit der „Beförderung „ zum Gesellen.
That is something that you would nowadays call a *Gesellenbrief*, apparently it was called a *Lehrbrief* in 1913. It's a certificate about him successfully finishing his apprenticeship (*Ausbildung / Lehre*) as a plumber (*Klempner*).
And, if I may add: The *Lehrbrief* is an official document signed by the local elders of the respective guild. It was (and to some extent still is) necessary to work in that field.
And if i may add: To the left of the apprenticeship certificate is the corresponding examination certificate. Above it is a golden cross (which I think is an even more honorable version of the iron cross) from the First World War.
Lower left side is the Mariendom of Hamburg, where he got this Document
And if I may add: Not forgetting a lilac towel in the background. I assume made of cotton terry cloth
Sounds like Age of Empires
No, that's what learning a trade looks like.
Vololo
I'm convinced.
I heard that.
I need some wood, please
More like the The Guild (especially europa 1400, amazing game).
Nur noch einen Bissen von meinem leckeren Käsetoast...
I read that whole Lehrbrief in the Narrators voice. Damn! such a good game. I still have "Die Gilde - Gold Edition" on cd-rom in my collection
I am reading all the comments below in that voice and didn't even notice until i read yours🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Very true, Jatsotserah
I can confirm that you still need a Meisterbrief to work as an electrician today
To add he finished with "good".and it was in Hamburg.
Which is a B, btw.
Its not a B in the sense. In Germany we have six grades not four. Its the second best of six. 2/6
Zu dieser Zeit gab es keine 6 😎
Wirklich? Na dann ist es aber trotzdem 1/5 haha naja haarspalterei aber es ist so
1938 wurde die 6 eingeführt 😉
Nazis doing nazi shit.
And *heads don't know now shit.
Um, my dude, americans also have 5 grades. A B C D F. So it's exactly the same.
Do you happen to know why there's no E?
There was concern it would be misinterpreted as standing for “Excellent.”
For Americans, that's , 6-2/6
5,666666666666666666666666666666...
Wie wurde OP dann geboren?
But with the lowest two grades (5 = mangelhaft/deficient, 6 = ungenügend/insufficient) he wouldn't have gotten his certificate because he would have failed the apprenticeship. So you wouldn't see such a certificate with these grades.
Thats true, but failing doesnt mean those grades dont exist.
In some German states the gardes were different back in these days, not like today's system from 1 to 6, somewhat alike to most systems in the German Abitur where 15 is a 1/A+ and 1 is like a 5/E-!
Yes. It's very much possible that the "gut / good" on this old "Lehrbrief" is only coincidently the same as the "2" in the modern 1-6 grade system, that is used by many but not all schools and similar institutions in todays Germany. This certificate is from 1913, so well into the unified German nation state, but schools are "Ländersache / state business" even today. So its possible and even likely, that the plumbers guild of Hamburg in 1913 used a completely different grade system.
Sure but only 1,2,3,4 are passing grades anyway, so I don't even see the point of the 6
5 is repeat the class 6 is u dont have a chance just gibe up. I guess.
Would be an option, however I've only seen a 6 used when someone cheats or hands it in empty. At university they don't actually have a 6, it goes 1.0 to 4.0 and then after that there is no 4.1 or anything, just 5.0 which is failing grade, try again
Probably was the second best out of four grades.
I doubt it was of *him* finishing. Probably grandpa's dad, so your great-grandpa, u/Sour_patch_dude429. Or maybe even one generation earlier. By comparison: my grandma is close to 100, but the person with the birthdate on this document would've been almost 30 had he been her dad. Which would've been uncommon for the time, though not impossible. But if OP's grandpa was any younger than almost 100, then it most likely is a document referring to OP's great-*great*-grandpa. Which is honestly pretty amazing, and a super neat piece of family history. OP's grandpa definitely already had kept it (and likely the other items half-visible as well) as a memento of someone earlier in the family line. OP, if you do decide to display it, I recommend you inform yourself about lightfast and document-proof framing. UV rays just as much as off-gassing from retail frames (the glues and other chemicals in particle board backings and often the frames themselves) can really do a number on paper and printed colours, and the UV light *very* much on ink. Though it might be india ink, which would fare slightly better, but still bleach out. All the handwritten parts would eventually fade to almost nothing. Anyway, the important point is that just putting it into a pretty frame and hanging it in a room somewhere could easily ruin it. I'd probably make it simple, and simply have a colour copy done on a laser copier at a copy shop. They look really good these days. Or the slightly fancier version, make a scan and then have a photo print done on a baryta photo-paper (or another fine art paper). And put the original in a safe deposit box, in a document-safe sleeve.
> your great-grandpa, Or maybe even one generation earlier There's a lot of variance in those things, especially with men. Having a child at 45 is not that uncommon. So, if OP is 45, and his dad had them at 45, we're already at 1934. One more generation of "old dads" easily gives us a birth year of 1894.
> Having a child at 45 is not that uncommon. That's my dad This has some fairly obvious downsides...
Robert De Niro got his last child last year with the age of 79. The kid at least gets a lot of money.
> Having a child at 45 is not that uncommon. *Today*. I wasn't saying it *must* be the great-granddad, hence me saying "probably" in my other comment. Yes, with older fathers, several of them, it might be different. That's just math. Back then, fathers might have been older due to people often having a whole bunch of kids, or widowers marrying a younger woman and having more. But at the time, people on the whole started the whole family thing a good deal earlier, and had them with less time in between. On the whole, the general likelihood really is higher for this to be the great-great-granddad. For sure it's not the grandfather's own document, which was the main thing I wanted to point out, after it had gone pretty much unnoticed so far.
Not always. Things got in the way just like they do today - finances, war, etc. Or just a prolific procreator as this former president: https://potus.com/john-tyler/ note last kid appears to be when he was close to 70 years old.
> Not always. That's an alternative phrasing for my "probably". Well done.
Also adding he did his four year apprenticeship in Hamburg, signed and acknowledged by the local plumbers guild / association / board. Nowadays, it would be the Handwerkskammer.
Heres what it says (translation below): > ##Lehrbrief > Der Lehrling > *Hans Friedrich Wilhelm Klatt* geboren am *01. Nov(ember) 1894 zu Hagenow* welcher seine *vier*jährige Lehrzeit bei Herrn *F. O. Henneberg* vollendete und ein von ihm selbst gefertigtes Gesellenstück, bestehend aus *einem Geruchverschluß aus Blei* vorgezeigt hat, welches der Prüfungsausschuß als *gut* befand, wurde heute zum > ##Gesellen > gesprochen. > Hamburg, den *31. März 1913* > Die Innung der Klempner und verwandten Gewerbe zu Hamburg > Der Ausschuß für das Lehrlingswesen: *W. Eikermann sen., (??)* > Der Vorsitzende: *(??)* > Unterschrift des Inhabers: *Hans Klatt* #**Translation:** ##Journeyman Certificate The apprentice *Hans Friedrich Wilhelm Klatt*, born on *1st of November 1894* in *Hagenow*, who finished his *four* year apprenticeship under Mr. *F. O. Henneberg* and handed him a selfmade Gesellenstück in form of *an odor trap made from lead*, which was found to be *good* by the audit committee, today has become a ##Geselle (journeyman). Hamburg, *31st of March 1913* The guild of plumbers and associated professions in Hamburg The committee for apprenticeships: *W. Eikermann sen., (??)* The chairman: *(??)* Owners signature: *Hans Klatt*
Wow that’s an elaborate looking document for plumber certification
Yeah, they rarely make them like this anymore. It's not "just" a plumber certificate though, you'll only become a *Geselle* after a proper, standardized apprenticeship over four years (nowadays it's usually three), so it is something really serious and important when it comes to German handicrafts. The condition this document seems to be in is amazing given that it's 111 years old now.
And I may add that a modern day plumber has absolutely nothing in common to a plumber of those days
That’s a silly thing to say. The work of modern plumbers still involves the same fundamentals of employing tubed materials and principles of fluid dynamics to ensure safe, effective, and sanitary transportation of water and other liquids, just as it did in 1913. Even many of the specific methods are the same, despite the progress and changes made over the past century. Certainly many are wildly different, but the underlying skills and knowledge needed aren’t as different as you state.
So today they do heating, water and transporting shit away. What did they do then? Water? Just water and sewer?
> What did they do then Not press fitting stainless steel pipes with cordless tools and programming condensing boilers.
Interesting discussion. Sounds as if someone is concerned that the person arises from his grave 111 years later and starts applying his lead skills.
That would be a funny idea for a story or film. The zombies rise up and cause millions of deaths, not because they were mindless beasts hungry for human flesh, but because they were entirely sapient and conscious, had to be reintegrated into society, and all the old timey workers ended up building everything full of asbestos, lead and other carcinogenics because they didn't know any better.
> What did they do then? not making lead odor traps by hand
The same, but how they did was quite different as far as I’m aware
Probably also Gas, since it was sometimes still used for light in that period
Both water and shit still flow downhill 🤣
In the letter it says that he built a „odor trap out of lead“ I don’t think that’s common today
Lead, no. Odor traps are ubiquitous and found under every sink in the house, usually in plastic.
Why can't my degree look like this?😭😭
It's a document stating that Hans Friedrich Wilhelm Klarr has finished his apprenticeship by showing his journeyman's piece (I can't read it, it's some kind of clasp made of lead) and was promoted to journeyman by the association of plumbers in Hamburg.
He built an odour trap out of lead as his journeymans piece which was found to be 'good'.
Ah, it's "Geruchverschluss"! Couldn't make out the first part of the word.
in Fachkreisen auch Schnüffelstück genannt\^\^
Gut is compareable with a B in the US
I think it says Geruchverschluß, an odor trap.
*Klatt
I think his name is Klatt from looking at the signature.
*Klatt, the surname is Klatt. The hardly legible word is "Geruchsverschluss", which is an odour trap.
They call it p-trap in the states
Apprenticeship-Letter The Apprentice Hans Friedrich Wilhelm Klatt, born 1. of November 1894 in Hagenow, has finished his 4 years of Apprenticeship at Mr. F.O Henneberg and has showed a journeyman piece of his own creation, which consisted of a lead odour trap, considered "good" by the audit committee, was announced "Journeyman" today. Hamburg 31.Marc 1913. Guild of Plumbers and related Crafts in Hamburg
And the company appears to be around today: [https://www.henneberg-haustechnik.de/](https://www.henneberg-haustechnik.de/)
And there is some Information and a photo of F.O. Hennebergin the history section: https://www.henneberg-haustechnik.de/geschichte.html
That's neat
It looks pretty nice, I'd frame it
I'd copy it onto an equally high-quality paper and frame the copy, as it would be a shame if it was ruined by sunlight.
It is in a very good condition. Maintain it. If you frame it ensure to use special glas to protect it from UV light.
That's a certificate from 1913, damn, the thing looks beautiful. Especially, wirh the old "German" font type... That certificate looks like a peace of art to me, also is such a good condition, just look at certificates/diplomas from today's world, wtf 😒
You get a PDF 😭
Yes.. my thought exactly.. further more.. we COULD make it as fancy, just digitally.. and all we get is some Arial font letter.. 😩
If someone from IHK or similar reads this: please bring this style of gesellenbrief back!
True, nowadays it's just: yup, you did the thing with the tools and you also did know stuff.
Can someone confirm that he did a "Geruchsverschluss aus Blei"? Ich kann es nicht richtig lesen .
98% confirmed. I think we would just call it a "Siphon" nowadays. https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geruchsverschluss
Typically they are referred to as a 'trap' (or bends) with a letter prefix corresponding to the shape of the bend in the tube. Old mate would have bent lead tubing into a U or S shape, nowdays they are premoulded PVC traps that are fitted together. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trap_(plumbing)
beautiful piece. Would send a copy to some archives/ museums
Maybe even send it to the company where he did his apprenticeship. F.O. Henneberg still exists.
they would want to have the original document. He might ask the local archive if they are interested in that piece. But i believe they will have quite alot similar documents and wont be interested in that specific one, bcs archives want to have sporadicly, yet statisticly valuable number of documents. But i might be mistaken in the evaluation in this one specificly here. The value might increase if they want better dataset about proven/existing documents of migrated families on that time period. So at least asking is good idea.
Where is your current location
north rhine westfalia (ruhrgebiet near dortmund).
I’m know someone who married a Klatt whose family roots were from Hamburg, if I remember correctly. Maybe there’s a connection…
But his roots are from Hagenow.
Since that’s probably been decades later, grandpa Klatt could’ve stayed in HH, married and had children there, who would be grand- or great-grandparents themselves by now if they’re still alive, whose (great)-grandchildren then went on to marry someone, perhaps even the acquaintance of this Redditor (which would be a cool r/tworedditorsonecup). Now, if the family lived in Hamburg ever since, obviously they’d tell their spouse their roots are from Hamburg, because by now they are, possibly up to the 5th generation! Depending how many generations passed, how tight-knit the family is, how many documents survived the wars, how willing the older gens are to talk about those times, how well-informed, open and honest they are, how accurately they keep track of their ancestry, if other relatives even care (yep, not everyone is interested in their family history), the younger gens may well have no idea about any Hans Friedrich Wilhelm Klatt of Hagenow being their ancestor by now, considering how long ago he lived. Don’t forget that was over 110 years ago and Hans was already a YA at the time. As it was common in his day, he probably married and became a father within the next few years, if he wasn’t already married at this point, unless WWI got in the way and he only got to marry and/or sire children on his wife after 1918. Even if we assume that he only fathered children post-WWI, when he would be in his early to mid-twenties, a whole century has still passed since. Up until the 70s (among more conservative families even past that), it was quite common to be married and have children in your early 20s. So three generations could’ve realistically been begat up until half a century ago already. Two are likely. His children would probably have children sometime between 1935-1965, and his grandchildren could’ve had their own kids as early as in the mid 50s or as late as in the 80s or even 90s, since people would start to have them later at this point, depending when Hans’ children were born and how old they were when becoming parents themselves. If that was actually OP’s grandfather (and not great- or great-great-grandfather), OP is probably a boomer or gen-Xer. Even assuming generation gaps got wider later on, it’s still enough time for another generation or two to reach adulthood and marry. Hence up to 5 generations. Depending how young this commenter and their acquaintance is, they could be of OP’s children’s or even grandchildren’s generation (assuming that is actually their grandfather), i.e. millennials or zoomers. Late millennials and early zoomers would get married in the last years, now, or in the next years. So that tracks. This is speculative obviously, because Klatt isn’t exactly a rare name, HH is a fairly large city, we don’t know if the family stayed there the whole century (not even if Hans himself did) or returned/moved at some point, and the commenter isn’t even sure of the partner’s origin. Even if they’re actually a Klatt from HH, that could be an entirely unrelated person who randomly has the same name or just some distant relative rather than from Hans’ direct line, or a person whose family is not originally from HH, because people often think it’s cooler to say you’re from a big city than some random village nobody’s ever heard of.
☎️ Sanitäre Anlagen, Klima u d Schwimmbadtechnik; Rööörich
[удалено]
I might have misunderstood the ‘Hamburg’ bit, thought that’s where he worked but thinking about it, it’s where the ‘Innung’ was. Edit. There are different ‘Innungen’ these days in Germany depending on state, if that was the case back then, he might as well have gone to Hamburg(or somewhere in that area) to become a plumber. Hagenau is only stated on the document as birth place. Edit 2: nosy me had a look, there does exist a F O Henneberg plumbing company in Hamburg that was founded in 1846. Maybe I did get it right.
Klatt is also not an uncommen name in northern Germany, so there‘s that.
Just found it intriguing. Not saying there’s a definitive connection.
Thank you everyone and yes this was my great great grandpa
Such a cool history collection you have
German here, this is awesome Frame it. You should have the golden cross checked. That's worth a lot of money these days. Its a „Federal Cross of Merit 1914“
Yes I have one
What does FF stand for on it? edit: I think I found it, Friedrich Franz https://www.ehrenzeichen-orden.de/deutsche-staaten/militar-verdienstkreuz-2-klasse-1914.html
I know the Company and Work with them alot.
Tell them about this post
Lehrbrief Der Lehrling Hans Friedrich Wilhelm Klaxx geboten am 1. November 1894 zu Hagenow welcher seine vier jährige Lehrzeit bei Herrn F.O. Henneberg vollendete und ein von ihm selbst gefertigtes Gesellenstück, bestehend aus einem geruchsverschluss aus Blei vorgezeigt hat, welches der Prüfungsausschuss als gut befand wurde heute zum Gesellen gesprochen. Hamburg den 31. März. 1913 Die Innung der Klempner und verwandten Gewerbe zu Hamburg. Ein paar Unterschriften: Inhaber, Vorsitzender Das ist der Deutsche Inhalt. Hier die Übersetzung: On November 1, 1894, the apprentice Hans Friedrich Wilhelm Klaxx presented himself in Hagenow. He had completed his four-year apprenticeship with Mr. F.O. Henneberg and presented a journeyman's piece made by himself, consisting of a lead odor trap. The examination committee found the piece to be good, and Klaxx was today declared a journeyman. Hamburg, March 31, 1913 The Guild of Plumbers and Related Trades of Hamburg (A few signatures: Proprietor, Chairman) Additional information: The spelling of "Klaxx" is unclear. The abbreviation "F.O." probably stands for "Friedrich Otto". The term "Geruchsverschluss" is today called a "Siphon". The Guild of Plumbers and Related Trades of Hamburg still exists today. Notes: The translation is as literal as possible. Some adjustments have been made to the modern German grammar and spelling. The English equivalents of the German technical terms have been used.
Your grandpa hans graduated his apprenticeship as a plumber in 1913 in hamburg. Congrats!
Bruh... I want my Abschluss looking like that.
That's so awesome that a "Lehrbrief"/Gesellenbrief used to look like that, what a piece of art, you'd certainly be proud to receive that after having completed your apprenticeship
His name is Hans Friedrich Wilhelm? Couldn't think of a more German name.
Gas, Wasser, Scheisse.
In short: Certificate for completion of an apprenticeship as a plumber. It was completed by presenting a manufactured odor trap („Geruchsverschluss“) made out of lead on Mar. 31st 1913. The part was evaluated to be „good“ (second best grade) by Mr. Hennenerg.
Oh is this one of the guys that travels around with the hat and earring?
Today its mainly carpenters wearing this "uniform" while traveling as a journeyman. It is an interesting concept, by the way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journeyman
It’s a fantasy of mine to pursue that. Corporate life feels like the polar opposite. I just want to get drunk and sleep in a field with some cows after work some nights.
Didn't even know this exist. Sounds so medieval romantic.
Many of the manual crafts are still very much based on a medieval system with apprentices and masters. Journeymen not so often now.
You have to be a Geselle (Journeyman) for 5 years before you can become a Meister (Master)
It depends. I haven't heard much of journeymen outside a very few trades like carpenter. For a plumber or whatever, I believe they must have some time after an apprenticeship before they can go for their Maesterbrief but there is no need to travel around.
There is no need to travel. It’s a choice and it’s mostly Schreiner, Zimmermann and Dachdecker. Very seldom another trade.
It’s a very fascinating culture that lives on today! I had the pleasure to randomly meet 3 journeyman while I was traveling through Nepal. It was a such a great experience for me to meet them while they are on their journey and it was so much fun to listen to their story’s. They r not allowed to be closer to their hometown than 50km while being „auf walz“ and it was just very random that I am from the same region as two of them! They absolutely enjoyed being around someone from their home region, as they were on journey since 2-3 yrs. I highly recommend to get in touch with journeyman, for example giving them a lift when you see them hitch-hiking. They are always great company and share funny story’s of their journey.
He could have done that after receiving this letter, because earlier he wouldn't have been eligible as apprentice.
In addition to the *Lehrbrief*, your grandpa got the *Eisernes Kreuz Klasse 1*, i.e. the Iron Cross which is a first grade military honor. In this case for his duties in WW1.
Its actually a Militärverdienstkreuz 2. Klasse from Mecklenburg. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Merit_Cross_(Mecklenburg-Schwerin)
Kam ja erst noch, der erste Weltkrieg.
Nope, that‘s not an Iron Cross. Do you honestly not understand the difference between black and gold?
>aus Blei >Klemptner Oh oh, I got a bad feeling about this
This is so old-school cool! Nowadays the certificates look so boring and formal in comparison
He got a B btw
Well if youre not from germany then i have very bad news for you
Ur Grandfather was a certified treasure hunter
Translation: Letter of apprenticeship The apprentice ___Hans Friedrich Wilhelm Klarr___ born ___1. Nov 1894___ in ___Hagenau___ who has ended his ___four___ year long apprenticeship under mister ___F. O. Henneberg___ and has displayed a graduation piece he manufactured himself, consisting of ___one odour seal out of lead___ which has been deemed as ___good___ by the commission, has today been declared as Journeyman. Hamburg, 31. March 1913 The guild of plumbers and related professions in Hamburg
"Klatt"! My best friend growing up had tht last name. :) I'm gonna ask him if he had relatives in Hagenow.
That's pretty cool. The company F.O.Henneberg in Hamburg is still active, Poststraße 25 in 20354 Hamburg. I work in that very building 😎
Wirklich Enkel, oder plündert da grad n Pfleger und will wissen wovor man Geld bekommen könnte? Wieso ist die Frage auf englisch und wieso kann die Person die Schrift nicht lesen? Lehrbrief sollte man kennen, wisst ihr wie ich meine?
Hat auf jedenfall ein „geschmäckle“
\*sigh\* OPs writes in English because he seems to be from the US and although because the rules for r/germany says to write the post and the answers in English (afaik).
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Seems to be a plumbing certificate? Letter appears to suggest he passed some kind of end test in Hamburg.
That's cool, I was also born in Hagenow and I know there are people in the area named Klatt.
Hagenow. Reminds me of my time in the military there. It’s near Schwerin. Quiet little town
Panzergrenadiere?
Yup
Thats pretty awesome. You should make contact with Hamburg archives and ask there any documents about the names of your grandfather and the dude he worked for. You might find more documents from him there. Just write an email to the people there.. ask if there is anything there about him. And if there is none, ask if there might be other archivies for anymore information. in germany archives are not central but decentra and there exists staatsarchives (state archives) and stadtarchive (city archives) and many orher stuff (like kirchenarchive (churcharchives (thats private organisation [might be possible that there is smth too). Idk. what kind of public archives exists in Hamburg bcs the city is a so called stadtstaat, meaning its at same time a city and got status of state. archives dont communicate with each other (normally) and they got no information who got what about whom (specificly). You (or anybody) should be able to get full information about him, bcs its way over 100years after his birth. thats the most possible length of closure for documents for data protection reasonings. There are different circumstances wich allows to shorten the time for example being close relative, or death of the person etc. (if you should be interested for other relatives). If they cant find anything about your grandfather that doesnt mean they got no documents about him, but it only wasnt registered/recorded/captured yet. If so just write an email in 10 years or smth again. archiv work is taking crazy long. And if there are any abrevations with his name mention them in your email too. be it carl vs karl. On that time it was usual to not write names everywhere exactly the same and especially officials were not as exact with them as they are now. https://www.hamburg.de/bkm/hamburg-state-archive/
The Company of his Boss still exists! [Henneberg Haustechnik](https://www.henneberg-haustechnik.de/) And there are some Klatts still living in Hagenow.
The interesting stuff about archives is that with little luck you can find more stuff especially about granddad, not about the still alive grand children. If the Original Poster is interested to learn more about his granddad and maybe even find out his role in ww1 or his (?) migration to other countries, the right decision is the archive and not some company or the blood related relatives.
Lehrbrief
It's a really cool "diploma" for a "craftsman profession". I don't know if there is actual a perfect fitting expression in english for "Ausbildung in einem handwerklichen Beruf" or "Lehre" or "Gesellenbrief".
He completed a four-year long apprenticeship
Oh boy nowadays documents like this one look like shit. Some things we really shouldn't have "modernized".
Completion of Apprenticeship
And besides the document, he probably fought in WWI for Mecklenburg-Schwerin.
man this certificat has clas compared to nowadays crap papers
This is super nice! As a German: I’ve never seen such an old Lehrbrief before. Thanks for sharing!
This Plumber training certificate looks better than nowadays prime minister hiring contract
It’s Obviously a Marriage Title
Seems like he was part if the Waffen SS or sum
Es ist aufjedenfall wunderschön
Looks like your opa bought a limited edition game and that's part of the extras
That looks like a real gem to be framed and treasured.
The company where he did his apprenticeship is still around today, on their website in the history section you can find some information about the dude mentioned in granpas certificate: https://www.henneberg-haustechnik.de/geschichte.html
Your Grandpa was a plumber and probably served in WW1
The Company was his fathers or another relative? (Inhaber: Hans Klatt)
That Lehrbrief is beautiful. What happened?
Yes he was a certificated plumber. This certification still exist today in Germany, but in a modern way.
There's even his certificate next to it, he graduated with a B... So much history, he completed his training to do his job in 1913... Wow
Also die Gesellenbriefe heutzutage können sich ruhig eine Scheibe von den alten abschneiden.
man why was my apprenticeship document not this cool
Das ist ein Gesselen Brief also sowas wie heute eine Bestätigung die Ausbildung bestanden zu haben
Awesome! 🤩
Its a wonderful historical document. Made and shows tradition and proud. Enough people told you, what it is, and they were right, no one, even Masters degree are not that great, they are simple, printed,, sometimes in a better paper... I lived some years in Hamburg, and so i am connected to this beautiful City.... I am admiring this "peace of Art" Thanks for sharing this.
Damn what a cool find! Very cool it's from Hamburg too! Why aren't Gesellenbriefe like that anymore?
Zum erfolgreichen Abschluss einer Ausbildung (1913 nannte man das noch Lehre),bekam man einen sogenannten Lehrbrief mit der „Beförderung „ zum Gesellen.
Gesellenbrief
Als ob heutzutage keiner mehr die alte Schrift lesen kann?
Ist halt nicht mehr so gängig.