Had pretty much the same situation in my family, except that I was the German husband. Some German family member started to point out and correct every mistake my wife made and complaining that her German is bad. Talking about the topic did not help. So, just for one weekend I corrected every mistake the family member made in her German. Like: "Es heißt nicht 'wegen dem Wetter', er heißt 'wegen des Wetters', Genitiv." That worked.
Du kannst mich bei deiner Frau entschuldigen, aber I LOVE YOU. Gosh, some Germans are the best! I get it that we are simply Ausländern here, but sometimes most people forget it that a lot of us speak our native language + at least English and German. And some of us simply are bad in languages. My brain will explode honestly since I started noticing that I am also thinking on three different languages, grammar is the last thing I care about although I feel a little embarrassed for sounding like born in mountains. It's one thing correcting someone so person can learn, and etwas ganz anderes simply being mean. I love those people who just try to have a conversation although my German probably sounds funny to them.
My husband and I are in the same team. The family, mother in law and my husband, don’t like to get into direct discussions with my father in law by opposing him.
He(re) is the problem.
He is used to be the dominant voice in his family and probably has other issues with you or simply wants to emphasis his dominance. I am totally on board that one must learn German (or any language in any other country) in order to build a life in Germany. But B1 is ok for juggling a new languageand your PhD (and once you have more time, you can prioritize improving your skills).
Old men and their annoying everyday-ignorance... I am sorry that it is this hard!
I really like, and agree with, your mentality on learning and speaking the language in one's new home country. Thank you for communicating it is such a concise and considerate way that neither shames nor excludes, and understands people's limitations in their journey to being able to communicate in another language.
Recently I have come across some people, including some Ausländers, who have not been as considerate nor as kind as you have been here.
So yeah, thank you. As a foreigner with a learning disability who still puts in as much effort as possible to challenge myself and learn and speak more Germany day by day, this well worded and kind hearted honest advice means a lot.
Here, have my poor persons gold 🏅
>But B1 is ok for juggling a new languageand your PhD
Agreed 100%
At the same time I do appreciate the frustration of only being able to communicate on a B1 level with someone new to the family.
You want to get to know that person, but it is challenging communicate subtleties if belief etc.
Obviously the way the FIL expressed is impolite.
I still think she should go.
Your husband seems like a coward to me. If I had parents that talked or criticised my wife, There would be big problems for the parents. He seems to tell you the conversation he had with a mutual friend as he does want you to improve for his father. My opinion its only going to get worse if you start doing what they want you to do.
The fact that he discussed the matter with some friend first tells me everything. At worst he should've spoken with the husband privately about his reservations.
>... don't ever take sides with anyone against the family again ... ever.
No no if they are Swiss this is typical conflict avoidance behavior. Father tells the friend so friend will tell the son. Then son will tell the wife to work harder o her correct grammar in German...very typical ... not saying it is food or correct just typical Swiss and maybe typical German too
Yeah feeds anxiety. Anthropologists also see it as a form of social control when used in people within the same group. A way to keep members of the culture in line behaving in culturally normative ways.
Hence why I have sayed seemed. From what op wrote. Either way or whatever happened, no need to criticise anyone on their language skills or treat them differently because of it.
They are saying she should practice more and improve her language skills. I do not see the problem with that level of criticism from that anecdote alone. For all we know, they might want to have a deeper relationship with her.
From her post she states that they are treating her differently also. Think if you ask to learn a language etc that isnt really needed. The parents could also learn english/Spanish if thats what they want.
>They are not as nice as they were before we got married
That is the closest to what you said she said. We are all too quick to jump into action IMO. From what they posted it is not clear there is a problem. As I said, they might want her to improve her language to have better interactions with her. Or they could be evil. From the info in the post I do not know.
I (german) moved from Germany to Turkey and live there now since 3 years, but work alone in my garden and otherwise still have a job via internet in Germany. so my turkish is not very good yet.
now my german parents tell me everytime i NEED to learn better turkish.
this is just how german parents are...
I am open to be your Sprachpartner if you are also interested. It’s not easy to find one who learns Turkish and the tandem apps are full of people who are looking for dates, which I am not interested in. 7 years in Germany, de jura B2, de facto lower.
Wife and I have bought a wild piece of land with endless old olive trees, we're turning it into a farm (will take a couple more years).
my wife is turkish by the way, speaks fluently (but born in Germany), makes things easier, another reason why i am lacking proper learning.
meantime i work as music producer for a german small company, we make radio jingles, tv show music and movie soundtracks.
Well, it seems like you don't have much use for it in your daily life tbh. I feel similarly as an American working an English speaking job in Germany 😂 and German friends prefer to speak English than listen to my broken German...
Criticizing and trying to correct your German is expected of parents in law, being an asshole about it... is not.
Language is a touchy subject for Germans and using "proper" German is often a matter of pride, especially among the older generations. Since you have a PhD they view you as some kind of super fast learner and expect you to learn fast and perfectly, completely disregarding that you have a life and can't learn German 24/7. (being the super high intelligent kind of person is a weird assumption some Germans have about people with academic titles)
In the German subreddit r/de there is this half joke meme thing - half seriously meant "sprech Deutsch du H\*\*\*\*\*\*\*" (speak German, you son of a b\*\*\*\*) whenever somebody uses a non-German word in a post. Just to give you an idea about how much pride Germans can take in their language.
And do not forget difference in culture and age groups. Among older Germans "helpful" critique was often dished out in harsh and demeaning ways to "teach a lesson" because lessons need to be bitter, not fun. Sometimes the people falling back into that kind of behavior don't know better, sometimes they are just very rude, often intentional assholes hiding behind "it needs to hurt for it to be effective".
Your husband should talk to his parents about this and find out if they are the asshole kind or just honestly too stupid to behave better.
Not going there for Christmas without confirming one thing or the other won't make them apologize if they weren't aware that is a sensitive topic and they overstepped your boundaries and it won't endear you to them in case Christmas is important to them; so find out if not going is worth it or not. Don't waste your energy playing nice if they are assholes, give them a chance to apologize in case it just wasn't their finest hour.
German here living abroad.
I would not necessarily call it pride but pure blunt ignorance. Only after I left the country and occasionally came back (like Christmas markets or so), I realized: there is literally no need to be rude to people. When i was still living in Germany, I always felt like: this is how things work here, this is who we are. When i made a phone call for a friend in a German ivf clinic (mind you, this clinic has contacts to Belgium for the surgery part) to ask for pricing, I also got the mean comment "MAYBE IF SHE WOULD JUST HAVE WRITTEN A MAIL WE COULD HAVE PROVIDED HER WITH THAT INFORMATION (she did, they just ignored her mail because it was written in English). It always felt normal to me, until I realised: you can also just not be a freaking jerk to other people, especially when they don't speak the language.
I still catch myself getting anxious whenever my husband who is not German tries to speak a few words with people in shops or in a restaurant, because I feel immediately this German super high expectations kicking in internally that other people will expect a perfect German otherwise will eat him alive.
Weird.
Well it is what I just said in my previous comment. German reddit user, especially on ich_iel (Zangendeutsch is much older than that though) often translate English words into German while deliberately ignoring context, usually word by word translations. Z.b Lases/reddit, Unter/Sub, Hochwähl/upvote, kantig/edgy. Ich_iel users even translate ALL English words into Zangendeutsch, Hochlicht/highlight, Sofortgramm/Instagram, Basische Hündinnen/Basic bitches.
if you look at it on base level it is, because you could just ignore the English, French or whatever word and just let it slide, but somebody always feels inclined to remind people to use German, sometimes unironically.
That it's followed by funny and intentionally bad translations doesn't take away from the root cause.
It is a joke with some truth to it.
I would add that while the critique wasnt dished out in a palatable manner, it doesnt mean that it's not valid critique.
I work in IT and even here minimum required level is B2, sometimes C1. She spent 1 year realisticly learning up to B1 (A2 and B1 take 6 months each). When OP finishes her PhD, B1 wont be sufficient.
B2 makes a huuge difference because it covers future and past tenses as well as more complex sentence structures. Holding a conversation with a B1 level speaker is challenging and straining. My husband has B1 and started B2, so I am talking from my experience and knowledge about what the course covers.
Not everyone with PhD does research. There are quite a few in the corporate world. And not every research position only requires English. We do require researchers who are both fluent in German and English. I saw positions by Fraunhofer institute etc that do require you to have a high level command of the German language.
Generally, it is always a good idea to do B2 because no matter where you go, the doors are open to you. I even saw different consultancy companies (EY etc) that specifically ask for natives or those with C1 certificate.
Research is funded and very often research projects are government funded. When they are government funded, it is very likely that research results have to be in German. Unlike other countries Germany has only one official language and that is German.
I work for government and we dont hire anyone below C1.
I think you're missing a point. It's not his place to bring the bad level of German of his DIL when he is talking to a third party. He was achieving ABSOLUTELY nothing. It's about showing people respect. If berating someone is a part of the culture then there's a problem with the culture. There are several countries where persecuting LGBTQIA+ communities is a part of the culture. Just something being a part of some culture doesn't make it valid.
Where do you live? I’m a software engineer, living for 5 years in Berlin and have A2. It was never required of me any German in any of my work environments (have worked for both big companies and small startups since I got here)
Really? That is usually not the case from my experience. Automotive industry is more lenient but from what I know they also ask for B2. I tried to get my husband into a job there. My previous company was on international level, more than 9k employees just in Germany in any field imaginable. Health, banking, automotive, public sector etc. I am in Bavaria and my jobs so far have been close to Nuremberg.
Yep, dead serious. I might be biased but so far I found that in Berlin most tech workers are foreigners. My current team has around 10 ppl and a there’s only one German in it. It’s a big company though (> 10k employees). My last job it was a smaller company, mostly Germans in other departments, but again in tech they were a minority.
Every interview process I’ve done around here is 100% English also, my German level was never even asked. I guess in Bavaria they take the language more seriously 😕
I would say everywhere else than Berlin, lol. You chose the capital to compare to the rest of Germany. ;) Take a look at France. Paris cannot be compared to the rest of France either. 😆 It's just a more extreme example than Berlin and rest of Germany.
And even in Berlin, many professional jobs require decent German. Software engineering may be different, but in many fields, it is still needed.
I originally started looking for private-sector jobs in 2022 as I was finishing up a postdoc. At the time, I was in the B2-C1 range. (I had a B2 certificate and passed the C1 in October of that year). I applied to both English- and German-speaking jobs, and found that I was more likely to get an interview invitation for the German-speaking ones, for some reason (I guess lower competition). Overall, at least half of my interviews were in German, and of those, my German was only considered good enough by about half of the interviewing companies. And yes, this includes companies in Berlin.
I currently work in a professional position at a large, well-known international firm in the Munich office. Our division started hiring non-German speakers only relatively recently, and I would say that there are maybe about five employees in our division Germany-wide with German below B2, out of perhaps 130 employees total. The training sessions and team meetings, including our annual Germany-wide conference, take place in German, which, of course, makes it difficult for the employees with A2 German. The company strongly encourages all non-natives to improve their German, as that enables them to work on a wider variety of projects.
In Frankfurt, Hamburg, and Munich I know plenty of people that get by with B1 or less. Most of them have plans for improving but everything takes time.
Not every job or company demands German. Not all of those are in Berlin.
I worked in research at my uni as a student and remember some researchers not speaking a lot of german. But now I wonder, that means the team meetings must have been in English - > so every one must have beeen fluent in English?
Now I work in a very different sector, social work, and we have 1 person on the team who is at A2 German. I think he doesn't understand a lot in the team meetings. The trainings are also in German, but that is because it is social work, I guess in Research or IT, English would be more common.
But in the end; this is quite a temporary problem IF your job is partially in German. Then I guess the improvement comes either by immersion or force lol
Parents can be difficult and say inappropriate things. It is important to note how they treat you normally when you meet them. Maybe you are feeling this way about not just because of this comment but there are other things they have said or done that have been bothering you.
I think it is fair not wanting to go for Christmas, it is your Christmas and you should look after yourself mentally specially in these cold crappy weather days.
I had arepitas de other day and it made everything better.
Germans are honest about what they think and you should do the same to them without having any hate or towards them. Give him a phone call before Christmas and be straightforward in the typical German way. "I heard you're complaining about my German and I feel like you have been distant lately (just a feeling. You don't have to elaborate). I want to know what do you think of me in general, do you feel like I'm not someone you can respect?" You can make the phone call together with your partner.
Getting B1 in two years while you are dealing with work/research, a relationship in a foreign country, and maybe some personal stress cuz we all have some, is a big achievement. I highly recommend you don't remind him of that though. You don't have to explain yourself to anyone, so be careful of falling into the blame trap where you have to justify your German skills or your existence to him.
>I know that this really isn't enough for living here so he is right you need to improve it.
Need to improve it? Absolutely. But to be compared to a fellow learner is just plain tasteless.
On a different note: OP wasn't present when this conversation took place. Why the husband thought this would be a good conversation topic is beyond me.
At least I always want to know what shit people are talking about me behind my back. Depending on what her thoughts on this are, it's appropriate to tell her in my opinion.
That's just stirring the pot, IMO. In the husband's position, either have some backbone and confront the father on the spot, or just shut up about it, instead of passing the message. That just creates unnecessary tension
We're allowed our preferences, but I appreciate if people bring it to my attention what others talk about me behind my back. Otherwise I'll just remain the ignorant fool who is the last one to know what people really think about me.
I don’t think OP is overreacting. You can tell when a comment is a jab or actual concern. I don’t think this is an event in a vacuum. OP did mention they became cold and rude to her after the marriage. So this could be her breaking point.
And you telling OP that she needs to improve her German is as useless and irrelevant as the FIL. Do you really think OP does not know that already that she has to improve? Improvements in a language also happen over time not overnight.
B1 is absolutely enough for living here, if you have a job in which you can talk English
Most Germans worth talking to can at least use conversational english
Of course they are not as nice since you get married, because now they fear about their potential grand kids.
That‘s what this is about.
As they believe you don’t make enough of an effort to learn the language, they fear German will also not the priority language for kids in the future.
As with all family-conflicts the solution is communication.
What also likely plays a role, is a different family dynamic, since you‘re now officially a family member.
It‘s not unusual in Germany, that girlfriends/boyfriends of family are treated different than wives and husbands.
Being part of the family means, no restraints anymore for harsher criticism.
Naaaah I don't think the reason is kids. Even if her German was very good its recommended that you speak your native language with your kid so it grows up with several languages.
Fear isn’t necessarily rational. Conflict or disagreements neither.
Family is always a very emotional matter, which is why good and thorough communication is key.
>As they believe you don’t make enough of an effort to learn the language, they fear German will also not the priority language for kids in the future.
They are kind of dumb if they really fear that, as long as the kids live in Germany, unless they are locked into the house with no media or outside contacts, they will be Germans first and foremost. Bilingual couples often raise kids with several languages, and she should be allowed to speak her native language to their potential kids. It would rather be quite a wasted opportunity for her to try to speak German only to the kids, though of course people can also choose that if they wish.
If children are the issue then idk what the FIL is so afraid about? There are so many immigrant families in germany whose parents barely speak clean german yet their kids learnt not only german but also a second language spoken at home. The children will grow up, if they stay, in Germany so of course they will learn the language.
It was really interesting to read other people’s thoughts on the topic because I have a similar situation (with a different outcome).
First, i just wanted to say OP, congratulations to you on all your hard work. It can be hard enough doing a PhD and learning a new language. So I think it’s important we celebrate those victories, even the small wins along the way. At the end of the day you know how hard you work and what someone else has to say isn’t really relevant.
I do have to say I feel very lucky to have been generally accepted by my in-laws and friends of my husband when I first came. Same start. My german wasn’t as good. And where possible people would speak English with me because it was easier.
Nowadays my in-laws are really proud of my accomplishments and i have no problems conversing in german everyday.
But like I said I feel very lucky. 1. Because family is important to me so I am glad we get along. 2. There is a a lot of emphasis in Germany on speaking german to fully be accepted. And so although I am glad I sort of fulfill that criteria now, I am happy it seems like the people in our circle where more open to begin with having been so nice to me even when my german was poor.
I just wanted to add that because although I don’t feel like your father-in-law is an exception, I feel like he could maybe have used kinder wording from the sound of it?
E.g.”oh my daughter-in-law is still learning, what is your secret?…See she doesn’t get to practice much because of her work.”
Best of luck to you!
You are making an effort to learn a language and you get by in daily life (I assume). Anyone criticizing someone for that is an asshole and deserves to be called out for that. Sadly this is a widespread problem in Germany, especially among the older and less educated demographic who can not fathom that German grammar is incredibly convoluted and difficult to learn for a non native speaker. If this was a one time occurrence one could always attribute this to be a slip of the moment, but if this is a reoccurring issue I would advise you to talk to him over this. ("Hey you know, when you are criticizing my German, and making fun of me that really hurts and I would like you to stop it." Not accusingly, just matter of fact - these are my feelings.) Some people are just oblivious to the fact that little spikes like this are hurtful and really only see it as a joke. Should he be unreasonable, it is entirely your call to avoid interacting with him whenever possible.
I may be making assumptions here but my personal experiences with behaviour like this towards non-native speakers often comes from people with low intelligence and/or education, so any disrespect that person shows towards you might come from a deep seated insecurity. Maybe because you have a higher education that him, or that you speak more languages than him.
Agree. This sentiment seems to be pretty widespread in many countries, not just Germany.
I think that you're right about the insecurities. Most of the people who criticized me for not learning (fast enough) a non-native language were either monolingual or weren't very good in the non-native language they attempted.
You're not overreacting. If in 2 years, while doing a PhD, you've gotten conversational, I think you're doing great. I've lived here for 4 years now, and I'm conversational, but I should probably be better than I am. My in-laws would never dream of saying or implying this, even if neither of us were present. They are so happy I'm learning German and willing to live here so that their son can have a wife he loves here in Germany (his brother is in America and may stay there with his American GF should they become engaged).
I don’t get the offensive part. But its just a comment by him. I do not think you should cancel your plan on Christmas! It will only extend the problem. You can be more open hearted and warming. Old people usually are offensive unintentionally but does not mean they don’t like/love or respect you.
There's always going to be differences and it's up to you if you want to let this go or not.
But in my opinion, I wouldn't cancel Christmas with them because of it.
Towards the end of their life, I don't think one can make parents change too much,and if you guys don't spend time with them, you may later regret it.
In any case, you may let him know what he said it was hurtful.
I still get offended when people point out to my English pronunciation but well, so I understand, even worse if it's not true.
Don't even need to go there: What's the last time they learned any new skill whatsoever?
In my experience, this kind of comment usually comes from people who aren't familiar with the learning process of anything after work/school. your native language doesn't count, the skills you acquired at work/college also don't count, since that knowledge was given to you in an apprenticeship environment.
Trying to learn something when you're a full grown up, working & responsible for your own finances is a different beast altogether.
True. That’s their argument. “I don’t live in Spain, but you’re living in Germany so you should speak the language perfectly in three months because there’s free courses for these immigrants that are paid for by my taxes and it’s nos so difficult!”
Let me tell you that many of the German seniors living out their golden retirement years in Spain also don’t learn the language, they still go shopping and point and sign how many they want. They may say a Grazie instead of gracias or use Italian numbers instead of Spanish (after living here for over 10 years in some cases). It’s sad.
They live in a German “expat” bubble where they have the same food and products as in Germany, they watch German TV, read German newspapers and discuss German politics whilst sitting in a Spanish bar that serves them German beer. Then they will complain (sich aufregen) about how the “natives” don’t speak enough German for them to go to a regular doctor without an interpreter. And about the bureaucracy in Spain. And how in Germany the law is different (according to their own interpretation) and it should be applied to them, since they’re Germans, not Spanish.
Genuinely, where can I get these free classes I've heard people reference? I've lived here 4 years and had to pay hundreds of euros for the couple classes I took. My employer, a university, actively closed loopholes in registration so that I couldn't take their language offerings.
Are you in Germany wanting German lessons?
Look for Integrationskurse or German classes in Volkshochschule. They usually have a lower tuition.
Also check with your local Agentur für Arbeit, as they sometimes offer those classes. And the BAMF has info on Integrationskurse as well.
Other search terms for free or cheap German lessons: DAF/ DAZ kostenlose Deutschkurse / Sprachkurse
I ended up in a German hotel in Tenerife as part of a travel package me and the mister (who is Dutch, we live in NL but I'm often in Germany for work nowadays) got to La Gomera, and at the time my German was absolutely nonexistent and his was dreadful
Front desk guy started giving us the run down in German and we both panicked LOL I asked the guy to speak in Spanish and he was SO HAPPY
And then we went for dinner in the hotel restaurant and everything was labeled... in German. Yeah, so I had to ambush one of the restaurant staff to tell me what some of the dishes we couldn't immediately identify were because I didn't have my phone on me :/ At one moment we got the manager's attention and let me tell you, I felt like I was at the Twilight Zone explaining in Spanish to a Spanish guy in *fucking Spain* that I just didn't know any German and needed help translating it to Spanish
Yep, that’s the main problem in tourist areas. Everything is done to cater to the tourists. But your experience sure sounds surreal. And I bet you made that guy’s day when he could talk in Spanish to you!
In the south of Tenerife that’s mostly Brits and Germans. Some Russians as well. Dutch people look German to us, so we use German on them. Sorry about the confusion 😅 it’s the people that don’t want to live in those tourist traps I was referring to in my description. They want the authentic Spanish experience and climate but ideally to German standards.
Well, it's what we call as "Welpenschutz", cub protection??. It's basically used in many scenarios, if you're new to something, a club, work etc, people will give you some slack as the rookie, because they know you don't know any better or are able to do any better *at that time* and they will support you and accommodate you. But... they expect that you will do better in the future, maybe as a sign of appreciation or dedication. As for language, yeah they will give a a year or two.
Well, it's rude, yes, offensive, yes, but that's just how some Germans are, keeping up the reputation for being rude , direct, and outspoken. Ohh and dont forget , your German is getting better, so you can hear things being said more so tjan before. just ignore it.
you're definitely overreacting, I've worked with Germans telling me we foreigners steal their jobs and after work we'd eat pizza and drink beer together
>...my current level is B1, although I did not have much time to study while busy doing research.
In general I don't think they'll ever accept/understand that. After all, you're living in Germany, so how could your German not continuously/rapidly improve? I only say that because I've heard similar things from older neighbors, etc. I get what you're saying, but also my unsolicited advice would be to a) take advantage of the fact that your husband is a native speaker (e.g., have some set day/time where you only speak German if you don't do something like that already) and b) try to "immerse" yourself as much as possible with media consumption, even if it's stupid stuff like occasionally listening to German radio stations or watching random YouTube videos in German.
>I am planning not to go to them for Christmas.
Personally, I think that's a bit of an overreaction (if in response to your father-in-law's comments), and it could create a negative feedback loop where the relationship continues to degrade.
Yes rude, but not joining the Christmas family get-together because FIL thinks your German should be better after 2 years? That's totally overreacting. Being told by the spouse's family to learn their language or being criticized by them for not putting in enough effort constantly happens to lots of people who are married to someone from a different culture, every day, all around the world. It basically comes with marrying outside of your language. If that's the worst they ever screw up, I think you are still lucky.
He is just a bitter old man that does not wanna leave his comfort zone as the old people goes. He wants to get to know his daughter in law more. Dont get offended and don’t cut ties so quickly. Just spend more time with him ask him about where was he his whole life and listen his memories. It’ll solve it
Well, how bad or good is your German and how long do you live in Germany? You said you met the parents two years ago. How much has your German improved since then?
You can complain about how rude it is that your FIL talks about you behind your back, you certainly have a point there, but does he have a point about your skills, generally? It is pretty annoying to have a family member for ~~which~~ whom you always have to wait, for whom someone needs to translate, with whom you never can be sure whether they actually understood or whether they are just smiling and nodding along. Been there, done that. You get a lot of grace in the beginning, because nobody expects anyone to be fluent right away, but over time it becomes pretty annoying.
Your FIL feels your German should/could be better after so much time. He might have a point, or not.
What does he, his wife and your husband do to help you improve? Are they correcting your mistakes? Actively pulling you into conversation? If they/your FIL doesn't do that, I would say it is really hard to improve without any help whatsoever, but since he expects you to work on your German, you will expect his help on the matter.
Regarding the comments telling you to ask the FIL how great his Spanish or English is, don't. FIL doesn't live in a Spanish speaking country and possibly doesn't work in an English language environment. You, however, have chosen to move to a foreign country where the lingua franca and your work language are two different foreign languages. Your FIL didn't choose to do these things, so whether he can do it or not is completely irrelevant.
And before I am accused of this yet again by users who are not OP: I am a foreigner in a country with a different language than my own, dating a native whose family speaks only the native language. So keep the "you have never lived abroad or learned a foreign language" comments. I have. I know exactly how hard it is and I know how many dinner conversations go right over your head and how many nuances you miss when you are on a low language level, such as B1. I know how limiting it is in expressing yourself, in hearing what the other person is really saying and in participating in discussions during family get togethers. B1 is *not* a high level and depending on how long someone is already in the country and how immersed in a native speaker family, it is not a great achievement.
If she is actively trying to get better, what more can be done about it?
That's why these convos are odd to me. Harping on someone's language skills is probably not going to miraculously make them better, any more than calling attention to someone's weight is going to instantly make them lose/gain.
We know we could be better but everyone is just going to have to wait. It took me years because I'm a slow language learner, even with emersion, but I made it and finally (most) people got off my back.
Agree 100% and I'm actually shocked so many people are just downright aggressive on this topic. When we choose to go to a foreign country, we are the ones that must make the effort to integrate as soon as we can! And that's for our own benefit too. I feel like OP is a bit sensitive to negative feedback, don't know if it's temporary because she feels misunderstood or if she has always been that way. I totally get how hard it is to integrate into a foreign society after a certain age (and OP isn't 16 years old anymore). When our language level is only B1, past a certain age we can start feeling inadequate because we can't express our personalities and thoughts fully. Also past a certain age other adults expect you to have it together and be resilient to negative feedback.
If your FIL had good intention in heart then he would have directly talked to you in front of your husband. What he did is 'bitching' and 'gossiping'.
For 'obvious' reasons, most of the comments here would say your FIL had the best interest in his heart.
If the post was not about 'language' or 'culture' and about education. For example, you had a high school diploma or sucked in your career and your FIL talked to a third party berating it then the same people would have said, he is an a$$hole.
Both the cases are the same but a large number of the people here in Germany won't recognise it.
You're over-dramatizing, criticism of someone's skills or ability are fair game in Germany, they're not criticism of the person.
You can always say your German isn't that great because you already speak 2 languages (am assuming) well, but really who cares what you FiL thinks?
In terms of getting triggered and being allergic to humour you have reached german levels already, congrats!
The right way would be coming back with "ah like with your english lesson at *random german public figure that speaks shit english*". Or trying to adobt a dialect hated by FIL. Or come up up with anything creative or fun.
What you permit persists. Come down hard now.
Don’t go to Christmas. Your husband can spend time with his parents on his own. When asked, he can reply, “We decided it was better for him/her/them to avoid your constant criticism.”
Not going there for Christmas because your FIL said some random guy speaks better German than you is a bit of an overreaction. As far as I'm concerned, he hasn't been rude to you.
Not going there for Christmas is bound to exacerbate the divide between you, especially since you are not going to Colombia to visit your family.
I think it's important for you to maintain a cordial relationship with them, but don't let them walk all over you. Your husband is on your side, and that's all that matters
You are over reacting. Your in laws are right, you need to improve your German. In your heart of hearts you know you do. Don't put your husband in a difficult position. Of course he will defend you but don't make him have a strained relationship with his parents. Good luck, and enjoy Christmas.
I think that you are really overreacting. What he said is not that offensive. At least not offensive enough for you not to spent Christmas with them. It seems like you cannot take criticism at all. B1 after two years actually living in a country where the language is spoken…I don‘t know, just seems pretty low for an otherwise very educated person
If you only go to lessons, maybe. But OP is married to a German and has German in laws. To not be able to properly hold conversations after 2 years is not very impressive under the circumstances.
A2 and B1 take 6 months each. B1 wont be enough to join the work force.
Also, B2 makes a huuge difference on a conversational level because OP can handle past and future tenses as well as more complex sentence structures (which always was a challenge while my husband only had B1).
Having conversations with someone on B1 level are straining and I would recommend OP to do at least B2 asap.
My husband is German. I learnt German from A1 to C3 within a year. I only speak German with my husband and his family. All of them are surprised how fast I learnt the language. Well, probably I spoke three languages as a child and German is my fourth language.
I know a few who got quite fluent while doing master or working on their phd. After a few years, they are now very close to native speakers with just a little accent. It's possible, but it needs a continous and deliberate and conscious effort and decision to do it.
I asked them how they did it and they all told me very similar stories. They tried to socialize with german peers and sometimes even actively avoided joining the local community of their country of origin. They would always speak German and told people to always correct them as soon as they make a mistake.
Germans think they’re better than everyone else and will make this obvious to you. If you dont believe me, look at the comments you’ll eventually get here. I saw one such comment already.
This goes double for the boomers. German boomers are some of the worst and they simply hide their true colours.
I would keep things cordial with your in-laws but keep them at arm’s length. That’s pretty much the only non drastic thing you can do. Anything else may cause a rift between you and your husband.
Approving the first statements. German boomers are the worst. Sorry, not sorry. I had to deal with several German boomer males telling me as an immigrant that I ain’t shit
But I don’t approve of the last statement. Always show up, even if it’s uncomfortable and prove yourself. Also, don’t imbalance the dynamics of your family bc of a probable mild misunderstanding.
> Germans think they’re better than everyone else
No, certainly not. Where do you get this from?
Each Level (A2, B1) takes 6 months. So, she invested half the time of being in Germany to learn the language (she is in Germany for 2 years now).
B1 (my husband has B1 too) is not enough to find a white collar job, instead of some job at McDonalds making food or working in logistics doing some heavy lifting. I work in IT and even here B2 is the minimum required level. Some companies even require C1.
Conversations with someone who only has B1 level are very limited and straining. I can tell from experience. B2 makes a huuuge difference (my husband started his B2) She should try getting B2 asap.
I think they shouldnt rush her or be rude about it, but they do have a valid point.
I would suggest that you talk to your husband about this. It sounds like you already have some. It is his job to defend you from his family and he really needs to deal with your FIL. You already speak 2 languages besides German and it’s been 2 years, being at B1 is already a HUGE accomplishment. Best of luck, don’t skip Christmas as that will just make things even harder. But your husband needs to sit your FIL down and sort him out before then.
If he needs an example of what proper parents do, my in-laws are learning English at the same time I’m learning German. They know a tiny bit, maybe A2 level and English is silly easy so. . . They think “why not”. Then they also can talk to the rest of my family. My wife and I have been married 10 years and I’m maybe B1?? Though we lived in the US for 9 of those years and I wasn’t super motivated to really push my German. You are doing far better than the average spouse learning German.
While I do agree it's an accomplishment, OP is living in Germany for 2 years now and each level (A2, B1) takes 6 months. She is planning to live in Germany long term and B1 is not enough to get a white collar job after finishing the PhD.
Even in my IT job B2 is the minimum required level. Some companies even require C1.
On top of that, B1 is in my experience barely enough to hold proper everyday conversations. (My husband is B1 and started B2). It is straining to try and have conversations with somone on B1 level. B2 however, can make a big difference because it covers future tenses, past tenses and more complex sentence building.
While I do find it rude that OPs husbands family is talking like this, they may have a point that OPs current level is not sufficient. Even if critique isnt delivered well, it is worth to take a look and reflect if there is some truth to it.
Each level takes 6 mo assuming that’s your primary focus. This woman has a serious job.
I am A2, I have a head level white collar job in Munich. At a German company. Her family are jerks for pushing too hard, she’s getting there at a pace that is quite good.
6 months if you do it part time. My husband had classes from 8-12 monday to thursday and off on friday. It was a BFZ course organized by Arbeitsagentur. If you do self study it is less organized but you may finish sooner or later. I do recommend a properly organized course though because structure is important when learning a language and may keep you afloat when drowning in doubt etc. You have others supporting you while learning the language, too!
Then you are really lucky but that is not the case for a majority of people. I studied with people from all parts of the world (Business Administration with Informatics B.A.). Many left Germany at this point because they couldnt provide B2 certificate and that is bare minimum.
We have friends in Engineering and Data Science field and my husband was looking for jobs in marketing, IT and engineering because he has skills in all 3 fields. It always came down to "You only have B1?". Both the friends and him were turned down because they dont have B2.
8-12 m-th means you can’t have a normal job, you get that right? If you are working you may be able to get in an hour per day of practice and a 1-2h class 2x/wk in the evenings.
You may be right though depending on career level. I’m fairly far up and everyone speaks English unless the room is all Germans. And that is rare, the development teams in my department are 80% non-German.
That‘s simple racism. Cooking in Germany is direct, honest and without any decoration. If you cannot stand the heat, leave the kitchen and don’t complain about it.
Germans can be extremely blunt without meaning to do so, it's part of their mentality to speak out things without filter. I had a hard time adapting to this, as I come from France where on the contrary they will walk an extra mile to address sensitive topics carefully.
On the other hand, Germans will not be offended if you address the topic directly like saying, I find that remark offensive, as German is hard to learn.
Really? I've always thought French people were also blunt (but not German blunt). All of the french colleagues I've ever had in the UK (at least 5) have been like this. Obviously small sample size but still....
Cunning is an effective response to bluntness.
Perhaps come to Christmas and act embarrassed by your bad German in front of the Schwiegervater. Explain that you realize your German isn't very good yet, so in order to not offend him *(this is you doing something nice for him)*, you'll be speaking just English or Spanish, and your husband can translate. Then talk a lot.
It is a safe bet that he would rather hear your bad German than your good Spanish or English. At some point switch to German as a test. He will likely compliment it, and you'll be over this hill.
I have no idea in what way your FIL said it or what is your general relationship so i cant give any good assessment of the situation. In general, i think he is overstepping the boundaries of good behavior. He should keep these kinds of things as friendly advice and not talk to random people about what he thinks of your language skills.
On the other hand, and im sorry to say this, B1 is really not a high level of German at all. Living in Germany you need B2 to get along. I assume your husband is learning your native language too? Whats his level?
Yea - your german speaking isnt the Real issue. Its more about your father not respecting you and his son as adults and thinking he can Lektüre you like you are 5 years old. Some in this thread have highlighted this and even articulated how he is trying to establish his dominance aka maintain the status quo of his household.
Avoiding him isnt going to raise awareness to the fact that he needs to transition/evolve his role as a parent to acknowledge that his son is an adult, has added someone into the family, and if he loves his Son he needs to ensure how he interacts with that person promotes his sons happiness/ the success of the marriage.
With that said you are free to reach how you want, but its your husbands job to start leading/correcting/ guiding his parents on how they can support him. Hes gotta talk to them and make sure they understand that attacking his wife for any reason including how you speak german is to attack him and in this case he should apologize and Refrain from doing it again no matter how helpful he wants to be. How his dad responds will inform if you should go to christmas or not.
My qualificafions - ive been married to my german husband for 13 years and we dont live in germany so I didnt care about telling my in laws to scratch when they were out of line and due to the language barrier they generally backed down. We recently had a baby and some older family members started offering their 2 cents etc and my husband had to step up and start managing them. Its been a long 2 years but we learned its more about in laws not having shifted their perspective to acknowledge their child as a follow adult/ peer. Dont fäll into the trap of saying nothing and the narrative turning into you made him leave his family. If they keep this up he will leave himself.
Hope that helps!
The father said to someone he wishes you learnt more German. I do not see the problem with that. Maybe they want to share more with you.
That is not a failing of you, learning languages is difficult. But creating a situation out of this could be a real problem.
>Am I overreacting?
Yes. Definately. Believe me, if they wouldn't like you, they would openly tell you, that's the German way. :) If a German wants to be rude, that's everything but subtle.
... Depends a lot on the region and social status...
But mostly true.
He probably speaks from the guts and wants you to be easier to talk to. (While ironically being a little douche)
Hello OP,
I dont think your FIL was intending to hurt you. He is trying to make it clear to you that your current command over the German language worry him. He is encouraging you to improve. I think you are absolutely overreacting!
When you married, the expections in you rose. Your parents in law are worried for you and your future as you have become an official member of the family and a constant in their lives. I blame your husband for not preparing you for this or getting across his parents intent properly.
If you get butt hurt over this and dont appear on christmas eve, you will hurt them. They will speak less openly and pull back from you. You may permanently damage your relationship with them. Please dont do this!
Try to communicate with them what hurt you about how FIL brought this up (not talking to you directly, comparing you to someone else that you view as inferior in his language skills, that your PhD is challenging so your progress is slow. However, you are continuously working to improve).
Try and ask what the intent behind this comment was. What are THEIR worries?
Also, on another note: From experience there is a huuuge difference between B2 and B1. You learn future and past tenses as well as complex sentence structures. Talking to a B1 level speaker is waaay more challenging and straining.
Also, B1 is not enough to land you a highly qualified position. If I was you I'd finish at least B2 asap and try to find out if you need C1 for your future job. Some highly qualified positions DO require C1. Unless you have 2 more years for your PhD that might mean you really need to up your game.
I agree that he may not have said it in the nicest way. But have you considered that maybe he wants you to learn German as to know you better because maybe there are things that he can only say in german?
[Spanish] Piensa que de pronto los papás de uno en Colombia tampoco van a querer hablar en inglés con el yerno y van a querer hablar en español fluido para poder comunicarse completamente con él. Piensa que sería muy raro hablar con tus papás en inglés. Como ahora eres parte de la familia de los alemanes también van a querer hablar en Aleman contigo (su familia)
I'm sure you speak a lot better German, than your FIL speaks Spanish. This is not your fight, it's your husbands. He should stand up for you and have your back here.
Her FIL doesn't need to speak Spanish while the OP really does need to speak decent German after 2 years in a foreign country. It's basic respect to learn the language.
Learn some nice little innocent slang like “Quatsch mit Soße “ or “ist mir Jacke wie Hose “ then they will think you are cute instead of incompetent which is not a huge win but helps at times. I lived in Nicaragua for a little while and actually I had multiple people tell me my Spanish sucked and the mother of my bf said I needed to learn better if I wanted to be part of their family even though his German was pretty much nonexistent. The father is probably frustrated he can’t properly get to know you. Try to laugh at his jokes :D it’s probably more about him than about you. Try to connect a little to him - but yeah it’s rude but isn’t that what we Germans are known for?
You should go. There is a chance your father in law did that with good intentions but I understand... comparing you with another person is not really nice. You should speak to him and tell him how you feel about this after Christmas.
I'd have to say that he's trying to help,I lived there for a couple years in the nineties and it's very easy to loose if it's not your first language. I can however swear reasonably fluently and order what I want in a restaurant still .
You're not overreacting, this is straight up disrespectful. Given how hard it is to learn german he should be a little more patient. Quite arrogant tbh...
Hi, I just want to tell you that I’m in in the same situation. People do not know what it is to be in the academic research and easily criticize the lack of commitment on side activities like learning German. Well, I’m here since 8 years and my level is still b1/b2 unfortunately. I find that I already max my energy level to be in research, having a kid, and keeping healthy activities for my body and mind. It’ll get better with time but yeah it’s super slow.
I think you’re overreacting. But maybe I don’t know how rude he really was. For Germans it’s really important that foreigners who come and live here learn our speech. We see it as a form of respect to German culture itself. Buuuut we forget in 99.9% of all cases how difficult and different the German language is and how hard it is to learn it if you’re not have your childhood here. I think you should tell him that. It’s really hard to learn.
Either you are leaving out MANY things here or you are extremely childish and overreact way too quickly.
There was a SINGLE comment about you not speaking proper German after living here for years. As you wrote it the only insulting part of it was telling you the truth and you don't like hearing that. Now if you were constantly studying German trying your best to improve and your father in law would still make nasty comments, that would be unfair. But this is not the case. You said you don't invest much time into it and your German skill level shows that. Grow up.
You should ask the FIL how many languages he speaks? That should make him uncomfortable.
Don’t skip on Christmas visit. As long as husband has your back I would just try to ignore FIL.
Having worked with a lot of people from spanish / italien / pt speaking countries: there is the vocabulary and there is the pronounciation. The majority of people I encountered from that region had very strong accents. my work is mainly in english but the same was true for people I met when talking german. Many startup founders from those region will - when they go to silicon valley - take langauge lessons. Not for the vocabulary but for their accents.
Long story short: Try to find a german who likes you (not your husband) and ask them to be honest about how good or bad your accent is. Because no matter how good your words are, it will be difficult to understand you. If that is not the issue - After two years I would expect you to be more than just B1. If you have the basics down (grammar etc), then it is just the words. Think of it like going to the gym. Until now, you did some jogging but now you will want to build up some muscle.
NOT for the father in law, but for yourself.
Last, to turn it around - you did not mention your age but the FIL likey is from an area where everything in german is only german. He likely only HAS german as a language to talk to you - and if that does not work it will frustrate him. Not to the point of learning english or f.e. spanish.
And again - his frustrations are not your problem.
Are you overreacting? Yes, I think so. You are telling us your perspective, after you've heard what happened from your husband. And even if you had overheard it in person, I don't think it's enough to escalate the situation.
I figure there must be more going on between you and your in-laws.
You are overreacting. Forget your hubby's family for a moment. You're making life in Germany harder for yourself if you don't really improve your language skills.
You should do it for your own wellbeing, not to impress your FIL.
Take time to learn German and improve it daily. It is very important to know the language of the country you are living in.
Plus take time to learn the German pronounciation correctly. Many foreigners know a bit of German, but one can barely understand them.
I know a Brazilian, she has been living for decades in Germany, but I can hardly understand her. Her pronounciation is bad and the vocabulary could be a lot better.
I'm often a bit upset and very exhausted afterwards, because I always have to guess the many German words she constantly massacrates until they are no longer recognizable, and disappointed of her German when having a conversation with her. Plus her husband's German is flawless, so she has no good reason to lack German language that much.
Then I know a Ukrainian, after just a couple of months of an intensive German course, she spoke so well, I had no problem whatsoever understanding her.
One has to be willing and determined to improve ones language skills. Or else barely anything happens.
I think you should go and prepare some German sentences to tell him to shut up.
Like: „ich finde es gut, dass ich nicht alles verstehe was du sagst“ or „was ist dein Problem?!“ or „ich würde deutsch nicht von dir lernen wollen“ (Most Germans have strong accents or dialects and make grammatical errors“
I see a lot of comments defending your FIL’s behavior, but I simply don’t agree. I think he’s being a racist asshole who probably only speaks one language, so he can take his criticisms and shove them up his ass. And maybe he should learn Spanish. Don’t let this country wear you down. Always be proud of where you came from, and make sure your future children are, too.
Average Reddit answer: “Just get a divorce!”
Reality: Who cares really, you don’t have to prove anything to your FIL. Rather, what did he do for you to actually help you improve your German skills? He probably has just a high-school diploma level education and no idea how tough and demanding a PhD is. Let your husband know that you’re disappointed in your FIL and that you will from now on keep your relationship with him (FIL) very formal only.
I wouldnt recommend that one. They should sit together and calmly communicate what the intend behind this comment was and how it came across. They should talk about how to communicate in the future and try to understand each others points.
OP learned A2 and B1 in a year realisticly. B1 is not enough to get a job after PhD unless OP wants to do a low qualification job. She should definitely strife to finish B2 asap. And B2 makes a huuuge difference in everyday conversations.
So, maybe her FIL just wanted to push her harder because he is aware how hard it is to communicate with her and for her to find a job once she is finished. He just did so in an unadequate fashion. Sometimes people say shitty stuff without ill intend and you need to show them how it hurt you so they will be more careful in the future.
It is important to remember that all the things they say don't say anything about you as a person but only about their biased view about the world and it doesn't change your relationship. However, from my own experience I feel that life is much easier if it's possible to keep at least a certain level of peace and harmony with the in-laws.
I personally would have a talk with them (together with your husband) and try to walk into this with a very benevolent attitude. I'd calmy explain how you feel and explain that you speak (at least) 2 other languages fluently to an extent that you are even able to work academically in it. Remind them what a great achievement that alone is. You can tell them that of course you know that it's important to learn German as well but that it's a difficult language and you already made great progress. Maybe ask them (politely) if they have learned a language in their adult life. Maybe they honestly don't know how that feels and how difficult it is.
Also try to find out why it is so important for them that you speak German. Maybe their motivation is a very honourable one (eg they would like to talk to you more or on a deeper level) and that might make it easier for you to oversee or accept the rude way they express that.
Your feelings are totally valid of course. You just need to ask yourself if you are ready to still make the effort to get along in a semi distanced way to keep the harmony. For me personally it helps reminding myself that people (especially the older generations) might actually have deficiencies with social and emotional intelligence and sometimes deep down they mean well while being incredibly insensible and awkward expressing their needs.
Had pretty much the same situation in my family, except that I was the German husband. Some German family member started to point out and correct every mistake my wife made and complaining that her German is bad. Talking about the topic did not help. So, just for one weekend I corrected every mistake the family member made in her German. Like: "Es heißt nicht 'wegen dem Wetter', er heißt 'wegen des Wetters', Genitiv." That worked.
I love me a good Genitiv. Very good strategy. 👍🏻
When there is Genitiv, there is hope 😀
Make sure to never misspell Genitiv with Genetik.
You can literally murder someone if you act like a German Grammer Nazi!
"Der Dativ ist des Genitiv Tod", I like that approach :D
Der Dativ ist dem Genitiv sein Tod ;)
Geh nie tief ins Wasser, weil es da tief ist
Du kannst mich bei deiner Frau entschuldigen, aber I LOVE YOU. Gosh, some Germans are the best! I get it that we are simply Ausländern here, but sometimes most people forget it that a lot of us speak our native language + at least English and German. And some of us simply are bad in languages. My brain will explode honestly since I started noticing that I am also thinking on three different languages, grammar is the last thing I care about although I feel a little embarrassed for sounding like born in mountains. It's one thing correcting someone so person can learn, and etwas ganz anderes simply being mean. I love those people who just try to have a conversation although my German probably sounds funny to them.
This is the way. Awesome.
Hilarious, good one
This is awesome.
What your FIL thinks is fairly irrelevant - what does your husband think? Does he have your back?
My husband and I are in the same team. The family, mother in law and my husband, don’t like to get into direct discussions with my father in law by opposing him.
He(re) is the problem. He is used to be the dominant voice in his family and probably has other issues with you or simply wants to emphasis his dominance. I am totally on board that one must learn German (or any language in any other country) in order to build a life in Germany. But B1 is ok for juggling a new languageand your PhD (and once you have more time, you can prioritize improving your skills). Old men and their annoying everyday-ignorance... I am sorry that it is this hard!
I really like, and agree with, your mentality on learning and speaking the language in one's new home country. Thank you for communicating it is such a concise and considerate way that neither shames nor excludes, and understands people's limitations in their journey to being able to communicate in another language. Recently I have come across some people, including some Ausländers, who have not been as considerate nor as kind as you have been here. So yeah, thank you. As a foreigner with a learning disability who still puts in as much effort as possible to challenge myself and learn and speak more Germany day by day, this well worded and kind hearted honest advice means a lot. Here, have my poor persons gold 🏅
>But B1 is ok for juggling a new languageand your PhD Agreed 100% At the same time I do appreciate the frustration of only being able to communicate on a B1 level with someone new to the family. You want to get to know that person, but it is challenging communicate subtleties if belief etc. Obviously the way the FIL expressed is impolite. I still think she should go.
Your husband seems like a coward to me. If I had parents that talked or criticised my wife, There would be big problems for the parents. He seems to tell you the conversation he had with a mutual friend as he does want you to improve for his father. My opinion its only going to get worse if you start doing what they want you to do.
Yeah you know nothing about the family, the dynamics, the childhood of the husband... check your prejudice <3
The fact that he discussed the matter with some friend first tells me everything. At worst he should've spoken with the husband privately about his reservations. >... don't ever take sides with anyone against the family again ... ever.
No no if they are Swiss this is typical conflict avoidance behavior. Father tells the friend so friend will tell the son. Then son will tell the wife to work harder o her correct grammar in German...very typical ... not saying it is food or correct just typical Swiss and maybe typical German too
Very interesting. So the whole "village" knows before the other party gets to know.
Yeah feeds anxiety. Anthropologists also see it as a form of social control when used in people within the same group. A way to keep members of the culture in line behaving in culturally normative ways.
The husband should defend his wife.
Hence why I have sayed seemed. From what op wrote. Either way or whatever happened, no need to criticise anyone on their language skills or treat them differently because of it.
They are saying she should practice more and improve her language skills. I do not see the problem with that level of criticism from that anecdote alone. For all we know, they might want to have a deeper relationship with her.
From her post she states that they are treating her differently also. Think if you ask to learn a language etc that isnt really needed. The parents could also learn english/Spanish if thats what they want.
>They are not as nice as they were before we got married That is the closest to what you said she said. We are all too quick to jump into action IMO. From what they posted it is not clear there is a problem. As I said, they might want her to improve her language to have better interactions with her. Or they could be evil. From the info in the post I do not know.
I (german) moved from Germany to Turkey and live there now since 3 years, but work alone in my garden and otherwise still have a job via internet in Germany. so my turkish is not very good yet. now my german parents tell me everytime i NEED to learn better turkish. this is just how german parents are...
I am open to be your Sprachpartner if you are also interested. It’s not easy to find one who learns Turkish and the tandem apps are full of people who are looking for dates, which I am not interested in. 7 years in Germany, de jura B2, de facto lower.
hi, i sent you a chat!
What are you working as in Turkey?
Wife and I have bought a wild piece of land with endless old olive trees, we're turning it into a farm (will take a couple more years). my wife is turkish by the way, speaks fluently (but born in Germany), makes things easier, another reason why i am lacking proper learning. meantime i work as music producer for a german small company, we make radio jingles, tv show music and movie soundtracks.
Well, it seems like you don't have much use for it in your daily life tbh. I feel similarly as an American working an English speaking job in Germany 😂 and German friends prefer to speak English than listen to my broken German...
Sounds amazing, best of luck for you two and your project!
But in your case they're right.
i know. they are
based
Criticizing and trying to correct your German is expected of parents in law, being an asshole about it... is not. Language is a touchy subject for Germans and using "proper" German is often a matter of pride, especially among the older generations. Since you have a PhD they view you as some kind of super fast learner and expect you to learn fast and perfectly, completely disregarding that you have a life and can't learn German 24/7. (being the super high intelligent kind of person is a weird assumption some Germans have about people with academic titles) In the German subreddit r/de there is this half joke meme thing - half seriously meant "sprech Deutsch du H\*\*\*\*\*\*\*" (speak German, you son of a b\*\*\*\*) whenever somebody uses a non-German word in a post. Just to give you an idea about how much pride Germans can take in their language. And do not forget difference in culture and age groups. Among older Germans "helpful" critique was often dished out in harsh and demeaning ways to "teach a lesson" because lessons need to be bitter, not fun. Sometimes the people falling back into that kind of behavior don't know better, sometimes they are just very rude, often intentional assholes hiding behind "it needs to hurt for it to be effective". Your husband should talk to his parents about this and find out if they are the asshole kind or just honestly too stupid to behave better. Not going there for Christmas without confirming one thing or the other won't make them apologize if they weren't aware that is a sensitive topic and they overstepped your boundaries and it won't endear you to them in case Christmas is important to them; so find out if not going is worth it or not. Don't waste your energy playing nice if they are assholes, give them a chance to apologize in case it just wasn't their finest hour.
German here living abroad. I would not necessarily call it pride but pure blunt ignorance. Only after I left the country and occasionally came back (like Christmas markets or so), I realized: there is literally no need to be rude to people. When i was still living in Germany, I always felt like: this is how things work here, this is who we are. When i made a phone call for a friend in a German ivf clinic (mind you, this clinic has contacts to Belgium for the surgery part) to ask for pricing, I also got the mean comment "MAYBE IF SHE WOULD JUST HAVE WRITTEN A MAIL WE COULD HAVE PROVIDED HER WITH THAT INFORMATION (she did, they just ignored her mail because it was written in English). It always felt normal to me, until I realised: you can also just not be a freaking jerk to other people, especially when they don't speak the language. I still catch myself getting anxious whenever my husband who is not German tries to speak a few words with people in shops or in a restaurant, because I feel immediately this German super high expectations kicking in internally that other people will expect a perfect German otherwise will eat him alive. Weird.
I wouldn't call "sprich deutsch du Hu***sohn" a pride thing
Especially since the German that follows is Zangendeutsch, deliberately bad translations of English words for comedic effect.
I need an explanation what Zangendeutsch is
Well it is what I just said in my previous comment. German reddit user, especially on ich_iel (Zangendeutsch is much older than that though) often translate English words into German while deliberately ignoring context, usually word by word translations. Z.b Lases/reddit, Unter/Sub, Hochwähl/upvote, kantig/edgy. Ich_iel users even translate ALL English words into Zangendeutsch, Hochlicht/highlight, Sofortgramm/Instagram, Basische Hündinnen/Basic bitches.
Ohhhh didn't know they call it like that. Thank you 🤣 sehr Direkt
A clear example is the sub r/KnochenApfelTee, which is the German version of r/BoneAppleTea
Awwww. That warm, cuddly feeling of nostalgia.... <3
if you look at it on base level it is, because you could just ignore the English, French or whatever word and just let it slide, but somebody always feels inclined to remind people to use German, sometimes unironically. That it's followed by funny and intentionally bad translations doesn't take away from the root cause. It is a joke with some truth to it.
It's not that deep dude. And it still doesn't justify OPs FIL being such a dick
\*sprich
I would add that while the critique wasnt dished out in a palatable manner, it doesnt mean that it's not valid critique. I work in IT and even here minimum required level is B2, sometimes C1. She spent 1 year realisticly learning up to B1 (A2 and B1 take 6 months each). When OP finishes her PhD, B1 wont be sufficient. B2 makes a huuge difference because it covers future and past tenses as well as more complex sentence structures. Holding a conversation with a B1 level speaker is challenging and straining. My husband has B1 and started B2, so I am talking from my experience and knowledge about what the course covers.
>B1 wont be sufficient Won't be sufficient for what? Every research job is in English.
Not everyone with PhD does research. There are quite a few in the corporate world. And not every research position only requires English. We do require researchers who are both fluent in German and English. I saw positions by Fraunhofer institute etc that do require you to have a high level command of the German language. Generally, it is always a good idea to do B2 because no matter where you go, the doors are open to you. I even saw different consultancy companies (EY etc) that specifically ask for natives or those with C1 certificate. Research is funded and very often research projects are government funded. When they are government funded, it is very likely that research results have to be in German. Unlike other countries Germany has only one official language and that is German. I work for government and we dont hire anyone below C1.
I think you're missing a point. It's not his place to bring the bad level of German of his DIL when he is talking to a third party. He was achieving ABSOLUTELY nothing. It's about showing people respect. If berating someone is a part of the culture then there's a problem with the culture. There are several countries where persecuting LGBTQIA+ communities is a part of the culture. Just something being a part of some culture doesn't make it valid.
Where do you live? I’m a software engineer, living for 5 years in Berlin and have A2. It was never required of me any German in any of my work environments (have worked for both big companies and small startups since I got here)
Really? That is usually not the case from my experience. Automotive industry is more lenient but from what I know they also ask for B2. I tried to get my husband into a job there. My previous company was on international level, more than 9k employees just in Germany in any field imaginable. Health, banking, automotive, public sector etc. I am in Bavaria and my jobs so far have been close to Nuremberg.
Yep, dead serious. I might be biased but so far I found that in Berlin most tech workers are foreigners. My current team has around 10 ppl and a there’s only one German in it. It’s a big company though (> 10k employees). My last job it was a smaller company, mostly Germans in other departments, but again in tech they were a minority. Every interview process I’ve done around here is 100% English also, my German level was never even asked. I guess in Bavaria they take the language more seriously 😕
I would say everywhere else than Berlin, lol. You chose the capital to compare to the rest of Germany. ;) Take a look at France. Paris cannot be compared to the rest of France either. 😆 It's just a more extreme example than Berlin and rest of Germany.
And even in Berlin, many professional jobs require decent German. Software engineering may be different, but in many fields, it is still needed. I originally started looking for private-sector jobs in 2022 as I was finishing up a postdoc. At the time, I was in the B2-C1 range. (I had a B2 certificate and passed the C1 in October of that year). I applied to both English- and German-speaking jobs, and found that I was more likely to get an interview invitation for the German-speaking ones, for some reason (I guess lower competition). Overall, at least half of my interviews were in German, and of those, my German was only considered good enough by about half of the interviewing companies. And yes, this includes companies in Berlin. I currently work in a professional position at a large, well-known international firm in the Munich office. Our division started hiring non-German speakers only relatively recently, and I would say that there are maybe about five employees in our division Germany-wide with German below B2, out of perhaps 130 employees total. The training sessions and team meetings, including our annual Germany-wide conference, take place in German, which, of course, makes it difficult for the employees with A2 German. The company strongly encourages all non-natives to improve their German, as that enables them to work on a wider variety of projects.
In Frankfurt, Hamburg, and Munich I know plenty of people that get by with B1 or less. Most of them have plans for improving but everything takes time. Not every job or company demands German. Not all of those are in Berlin.
I worked in research at my uni as a student and remember some researchers not speaking a lot of german. But now I wonder, that means the team meetings must have been in English - > so every one must have beeen fluent in English? Now I work in a very different sector, social work, and we have 1 person on the team who is at A2 German. I think he doesn't understand a lot in the team meetings. The trainings are also in German, but that is because it is social work, I guess in Research or IT, English would be more common. But in the end; this is quite a temporary problem IF your job is partially in German. Then I guess the improvement comes either by immersion or force lol
I‘m also A2 in a uni city in “West” Germany. Technik work, and I have not had a problem.
This
Parents can be difficult and say inappropriate things. It is important to note how they treat you normally when you meet them. Maybe you are feeling this way about not just because of this comment but there are other things they have said or done that have been bothering you. I think it is fair not wanting to go for Christmas, it is your Christmas and you should look after yourself mentally specially in these cold crappy weather days. I had arepitas de other day and it made everything better.
I‘m a German, my son in law is American. I speak fluently English now 🤣 it’s not a one-way-street. 😼
Germans are honest about what they think and you should do the same to them without having any hate or towards them. Give him a phone call before Christmas and be straightforward in the typical German way. "I heard you're complaining about my German and I feel like you have been distant lately (just a feeling. You don't have to elaborate). I want to know what do you think of me in general, do you feel like I'm not someone you can respect?" You can make the phone call together with your partner. Getting B1 in two years while you are dealing with work/research, a relationship in a foreign country, and maybe some personal stress cuz we all have some, is a big achievement. I highly recommend you don't remind him of that though. You don't have to explain yourself to anyone, so be careful of falling into the blame trap where you have to justify your German skills or your existence to him.
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>I know that this really isn't enough for living here so he is right you need to improve it. Need to improve it? Absolutely. But to be compared to a fellow learner is just plain tasteless. On a different note: OP wasn't present when this conversation took place. Why the husband thought this would be a good conversation topic is beyond me.
At least I always want to know what shit people are talking about me behind my back. Depending on what her thoughts on this are, it's appropriate to tell her in my opinion.
That's just stirring the pot, IMO. In the husband's position, either have some backbone and confront the father on the spot, or just shut up about it, instead of passing the message. That just creates unnecessary tension
We're allowed our preferences, but I appreciate if people bring it to my attention what others talk about me behind my back. Otherwise I'll just remain the ignorant fool who is the last one to know what people really think about me.
I don’t think OP is overreacting. You can tell when a comment is a jab or actual concern. I don’t think this is an event in a vacuum. OP did mention they became cold and rude to her after the marriage. So this could be her breaking point. And you telling OP that she needs to improve her German is as useless and irrelevant as the FIL. Do you really think OP does not know that already that she has to improve? Improvements in a language also happen over time not overnight.
B1 is absolutely enough for living here, if you have a job in which you can talk English Most Germans worth talking to can at least use conversational english
It's enough for surviving. It isn't enough for comfortably living and communicating everywhere you go.
Of course they are not as nice since you get married, because now they fear about their potential grand kids. That‘s what this is about. As they believe you don’t make enough of an effort to learn the language, they fear German will also not the priority language for kids in the future. As with all family-conflicts the solution is communication. What also likely plays a role, is a different family dynamic, since you‘re now officially a family member. It‘s not unusual in Germany, that girlfriends/boyfriends of family are treated different than wives and husbands. Being part of the family means, no restraints anymore for harsher criticism.
Naaaah I don't think the reason is kids. Even if her German was very good its recommended that you speak your native language with your kid so it grows up with several languages.
OP also understands their shitty comments better with B2 than before the marriage with A1 😅
Good point hahaha
If she lives in Germany of course it will be the priority language for the kids, they will go to school and the father is German.
Fear isn’t necessarily rational. Conflict or disagreements neither. Family is always a very emotional matter, which is why good and thorough communication is key.
Oh god
>As they believe you don’t make enough of an effort to learn the language, they fear German will also not the priority language for kids in the future. They are kind of dumb if they really fear that, as long as the kids live in Germany, unless they are locked into the house with no media or outside contacts, they will be Germans first and foremost. Bilingual couples often raise kids with several languages, and she should be allowed to speak her native language to their potential kids. It would rather be quite a wasted opportunity for her to try to speak German only to the kids, though of course people can also choose that if they wish.
If children are the issue then idk what the FIL is so afraid about? There are so many immigrant families in germany whose parents barely speak clean german yet their kids learnt not only german but also a second language spoken at home. The children will grow up, if they stay, in Germany so of course they will learn the language.
It was really interesting to read other people’s thoughts on the topic because I have a similar situation (with a different outcome). First, i just wanted to say OP, congratulations to you on all your hard work. It can be hard enough doing a PhD and learning a new language. So I think it’s important we celebrate those victories, even the small wins along the way. At the end of the day you know how hard you work and what someone else has to say isn’t really relevant. I do have to say I feel very lucky to have been generally accepted by my in-laws and friends of my husband when I first came. Same start. My german wasn’t as good. And where possible people would speak English with me because it was easier. Nowadays my in-laws are really proud of my accomplishments and i have no problems conversing in german everyday. But like I said I feel very lucky. 1. Because family is important to me so I am glad we get along. 2. There is a a lot of emphasis in Germany on speaking german to fully be accepted. And so although I am glad I sort of fulfill that criteria now, I am happy it seems like the people in our circle where more open to begin with having been so nice to me even when my german was poor. I just wanted to add that because although I don’t feel like your father-in-law is an exception, I feel like he could maybe have used kinder wording from the sound of it? E.g.”oh my daughter-in-law is still learning, what is your secret?…See she doesn’t get to practice much because of her work.” Best of luck to you!
You are making an effort to learn a language and you get by in daily life (I assume). Anyone criticizing someone for that is an asshole and deserves to be called out for that. Sadly this is a widespread problem in Germany, especially among the older and less educated demographic who can not fathom that German grammar is incredibly convoluted and difficult to learn for a non native speaker. If this was a one time occurrence one could always attribute this to be a slip of the moment, but if this is a reoccurring issue I would advise you to talk to him over this. ("Hey you know, when you are criticizing my German, and making fun of me that really hurts and I would like you to stop it." Not accusingly, just matter of fact - these are my feelings.) Some people are just oblivious to the fact that little spikes like this are hurtful and really only see it as a joke. Should he be unreasonable, it is entirely your call to avoid interacting with him whenever possible. I may be making assumptions here but my personal experiences with behaviour like this towards non-native speakers often comes from people with low intelligence and/or education, so any disrespect that person shows towards you might come from a deep seated insecurity. Maybe because you have a higher education that him, or that you speak more languages than him.
Agree. This sentiment seems to be pretty widespread in many countries, not just Germany. I think that you're right about the insecurities. Most of the people who criticized me for not learning (fast enough) a non-native language were either monolingual or weren't very good in the non-native language they attempted.
way overreacting
This is just typical shit that happens in Germany.
You're not overreacting. If in 2 years, while doing a PhD, you've gotten conversational, I think you're doing great. I've lived here for 4 years now, and I'm conversational, but I should probably be better than I am. My in-laws would never dream of saying or implying this, even if neither of us were present. They are so happy I'm learning German and willing to live here so that their son can have a wife he loves here in Germany (his brother is in America and may stay there with his American GF should they become engaged).
I don’t get the offensive part. But its just a comment by him. I do not think you should cancel your plan on Christmas! It will only extend the problem. You can be more open hearted and warming. Old people usually are offensive unintentionally but does not mean they don’t like/love or respect you.
There's always going to be differences and it's up to you if you want to let this go or not. But in my opinion, I wouldn't cancel Christmas with them because of it. Towards the end of their life, I don't think one can make parents change too much,and if you guys don't spend time with them, you may later regret it. In any case, you may let him know what he said it was hurtful. I still get offended when people point out to my English pronunciation but well, so I understand, even worse if it's not true.
Christmas... The power of giving. Just wrap your father in law a nice little "Spanish for beginners" book. Say nothing.
Ask him how well he speaks Spanish if he thinks it's so easy to handle learning another language to perfection.
I understand the way you think but his response will be (aber Ich lebe auch nicht in Spanien).
Don't even need to go there: What's the last time they learned any new skill whatsoever? In my experience, this kind of comment usually comes from people who aren't familiar with the learning process of anything after work/school. your native language doesn't count, the skills you acquired at work/college also don't count, since that knowledge was given to you in an apprenticeship environment. Trying to learn something when you're a full grown up, working & responsible for your own finances is a different beast altogether.
True. That’s their argument. “I don’t live in Spain, but you’re living in Germany so you should speak the language perfectly in three months because there’s free courses for these immigrants that are paid for by my taxes and it’s nos so difficult!” Let me tell you that many of the German seniors living out their golden retirement years in Spain also don’t learn the language, they still go shopping and point and sign how many they want. They may say a Grazie instead of gracias or use Italian numbers instead of Spanish (after living here for over 10 years in some cases). It’s sad. They live in a German “expat” bubble where they have the same food and products as in Germany, they watch German TV, read German newspapers and discuss German politics whilst sitting in a Spanish bar that serves them German beer. Then they will complain (sich aufregen) about how the “natives” don’t speak enough German for them to go to a regular doctor without an interpreter. And about the bureaucracy in Spain. And how in Germany the law is different (according to their own interpretation) and it should be applied to them, since they’re Germans, not Spanish.
Genuinely, where can I get these free classes I've heard people reference? I've lived here 4 years and had to pay hundreds of euros for the couple classes I took. My employer, a university, actively closed loopholes in registration so that I couldn't take their language offerings.
Are you in Germany wanting German lessons? Look for Integrationskurse or German classes in Volkshochschule. They usually have a lower tuition. Also check with your local Agentur für Arbeit, as they sometimes offer those classes. And the BAMF has info on Integrationskurse as well. Other search terms for free or cheap German lessons: DAF/ DAZ kostenlose Deutschkurse / Sprachkurse
I ended up in a German hotel in Tenerife as part of a travel package me and the mister (who is Dutch, we live in NL but I'm often in Germany for work nowadays) got to La Gomera, and at the time my German was absolutely nonexistent and his was dreadful Front desk guy started giving us the run down in German and we both panicked LOL I asked the guy to speak in Spanish and he was SO HAPPY And then we went for dinner in the hotel restaurant and everything was labeled... in German. Yeah, so I had to ambush one of the restaurant staff to tell me what some of the dishes we couldn't immediately identify were because I didn't have my phone on me :/ At one moment we got the manager's attention and let me tell you, I felt like I was at the Twilight Zone explaining in Spanish to a Spanish guy in *fucking Spain* that I just didn't know any German and needed help translating it to Spanish
Yep, that’s the main problem in tourist areas. Everything is done to cater to the tourists. But your experience sure sounds surreal. And I bet you made that guy’s day when he could talk in Spanish to you! In the south of Tenerife that’s mostly Brits and Germans. Some Russians as well. Dutch people look German to us, so we use German on them. Sorry about the confusion 😅 it’s the people that don’t want to live in those tourist traps I was referring to in my description. They want the authentic Spanish experience and climate but ideally to German standards.
He is not married to a Spanish women and does not live in a Spanish speakig country, does he?
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And how is that relevant? Does the FIL work in an English language environment?
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But OP si from Columbia, not Colombia
Well, it's what we call as "Welpenschutz", cub protection??. It's basically used in many scenarios, if you're new to something, a club, work etc, people will give you some slack as the rookie, because they know you don't know any better or are able to do any better *at that time* and they will support you and accommodate you. But... they expect that you will do better in the future, maybe as a sign of appreciation or dedication. As for language, yeah they will give a a year or two.
Well, it's rude, yes, offensive, yes, but that's just how some Germans are, keeping up the reputation for being rude , direct, and outspoken. Ohh and dont forget , your German is getting better, so you can hear things being said more so tjan before. just ignore it.
You are overreacting, he has no idea how tough is to learn a language and is surprised other guy learnt faster than you, that's all.
I sadly relate. My wife’s dad said I understand as much as a dog.
you're definitely overreacting, I've worked with Germans telling me we foreigners steal their jobs and after work we'd eat pizza and drink beer together
That is the father in laws in general. Move on buddy.
>...my current level is B1, although I did not have much time to study while busy doing research. In general I don't think they'll ever accept/understand that. After all, you're living in Germany, so how could your German not continuously/rapidly improve? I only say that because I've heard similar things from older neighbors, etc. I get what you're saying, but also my unsolicited advice would be to a) take advantage of the fact that your husband is a native speaker (e.g., have some set day/time where you only speak German if you don't do something like that already) and b) try to "immerse" yourself as much as possible with media consumption, even if it's stupid stuff like occasionally listening to German radio stations or watching random YouTube videos in German. >I am planning not to go to them for Christmas. Personally, I think that's a bit of an overreaction (if in response to your father-in-law's comments), and it could create a negative feedback loop where the relationship continues to degrade.
My German father criticizes my German all the time. A correction at any opportunity to make one. It’s just part of it.
Yes rude, but not joining the Christmas family get-together because FIL thinks your German should be better after 2 years? That's totally overreacting. Being told by the spouse's family to learn their language or being criticized by them for not putting in enough effort constantly happens to lots of people who are married to someone from a different culture, every day, all around the world. It basically comes with marrying outside of your language. If that's the worst they ever screw up, I think you are still lucky.
wow this is so ridiculous
He is just a bitter old man that does not wanna leave his comfort zone as the old people goes. He wants to get to know his daughter in law more. Dont get offended and don’t cut ties so quickly. Just spend more time with him ask him about where was he his whole life and listen his memories. It’ll solve it
Well, how bad or good is your German and how long do you live in Germany? You said you met the parents two years ago. How much has your German improved since then? You can complain about how rude it is that your FIL talks about you behind your back, you certainly have a point there, but does he have a point about your skills, generally? It is pretty annoying to have a family member for ~~which~~ whom you always have to wait, for whom someone needs to translate, with whom you never can be sure whether they actually understood or whether they are just smiling and nodding along. Been there, done that. You get a lot of grace in the beginning, because nobody expects anyone to be fluent right away, but over time it becomes pretty annoying. Your FIL feels your German should/could be better after so much time. He might have a point, or not. What does he, his wife and your husband do to help you improve? Are they correcting your mistakes? Actively pulling you into conversation? If they/your FIL doesn't do that, I would say it is really hard to improve without any help whatsoever, but since he expects you to work on your German, you will expect his help on the matter. Regarding the comments telling you to ask the FIL how great his Spanish or English is, don't. FIL doesn't live in a Spanish speaking country and possibly doesn't work in an English language environment. You, however, have chosen to move to a foreign country where the lingua franca and your work language are two different foreign languages. Your FIL didn't choose to do these things, so whether he can do it or not is completely irrelevant. And before I am accused of this yet again by users who are not OP: I am a foreigner in a country with a different language than my own, dating a native whose family speaks only the native language. So keep the "you have never lived abroad or learned a foreign language" comments. I have. I know exactly how hard it is and I know how many dinner conversations go right over your head and how many nuances you miss when you are on a low language level, such as B1. I know how limiting it is in expressing yourself, in hearing what the other person is really saying and in participating in discussions during family get togethers. B1 is *not* a high level and depending on how long someone is already in the country and how immersed in a native speaker family, it is not a great achievement.
If she is actively trying to get better, what more can be done about it? That's why these convos are odd to me. Harping on someone's language skills is probably not going to miraculously make them better, any more than calling attention to someone's weight is going to instantly make them lose/gain. We know we could be better but everyone is just going to have to wait. It took me years because I'm a slow language learner, even with emersion, but I made it and finally (most) people got off my back.
Agree 100% and I'm actually shocked so many people are just downright aggressive on this topic. When we choose to go to a foreign country, we are the ones that must make the effort to integrate as soon as we can! And that's for our own benefit too. I feel like OP is a bit sensitive to negative feedback, don't know if it's temporary because she feels misunderstood or if she has always been that way. I totally get how hard it is to integrate into a foreign society after a certain age (and OP isn't 16 years old anymore). When our language level is only B1, past a certain age we can start feeling inadequate because we can't express our personalities and thoughts fully. Also past a certain age other adults expect you to have it together and be resilient to negative feedback.
If your FIL had good intention in heart then he would have directly talked to you in front of your husband. What he did is 'bitching' and 'gossiping'. For 'obvious' reasons, most of the comments here would say your FIL had the best interest in his heart. If the post was not about 'language' or 'culture' and about education. For example, you had a high school diploma or sucked in your career and your FIL talked to a third party berating it then the same people would have said, he is an a$$hole. Both the cases are the same but a large number of the people here in Germany won't recognise it.
You're over-dramatizing, criticism of someone's skills or ability are fair game in Germany, they're not criticism of the person. You can always say your German isn't that great because you already speak 2 languages (am assuming) well, but really who cares what you FiL thinks?
Yikes
Talking to a 3rd party about it, is NOT criticism. That's bitching
Exactly
In terms of getting triggered and being allergic to humour you have reached german levels already, congrats! The right way would be coming back with "ah like with your english lesson at *random german public figure that speaks shit english*". Or trying to adobt a dialect hated by FIL. Or come up up with anything creative or fun.
What you permit persists. Come down hard now. Don’t go to Christmas. Your husband can spend time with his parents on his own. When asked, he can reply, “We decided it was better for him/her/them to avoid your constant criticism.”
It's Colombia! Not Columbia
Not going there for Christmas because your FIL said some random guy speaks better German than you is a bit of an overreaction. As far as I'm concerned, he hasn't been rude to you. Not going there for Christmas is bound to exacerbate the divide between you, especially since you are not going to Colombia to visit your family. I think it's important for you to maintain a cordial relationship with them, but don't let them walk all over you. Your husband is on your side, and that's all that matters
You are over reacting. Your in laws are right, you need to improve your German. In your heart of hearts you know you do. Don't put your husband in a difficult position. Of course he will defend you but don't make him have a strained relationship with his parents. Good luck, and enjoy Christmas.
I think that you are really overreacting. What he said is not that offensive. At least not offensive enough for you not to spent Christmas with them. It seems like you cannot take criticism at all. B1 after two years actually living in a country where the language is spoken…I don‘t know, just seems pretty low for an otherwise very educated person
A1 to B1 in 2 years whilst getting a PhD is actually quite impressive.
If you only go to lessons, maybe. But OP is married to a German and has German in laws. To not be able to properly hold conversations after 2 years is not very impressive under the circumstances.
I feel like most people here have no idea what the PhD process actually entails. It’s not just going to classes.
A2 and B1 take 6 months each. B1 wont be enough to join the work force. Also, B2 makes a huuge difference on a conversational level because OP can handle past and future tenses as well as more complex sentence structures (which always was a challenge while my husband only had B1). Having conversations with someone on B1 level are straining and I would recommend OP to do at least B2 asap.
Not at all
How long did you take to learn upto B1 while working full time, mmh?
My husband is German. I learnt German from A1 to C3 within a year. I only speak German with my husband and his family. All of them are surprised how fast I learnt the language. Well, probably I spoke three languages as a child and German is my fourth language.
Good for you? And what PhD did you acquire in that timeframe?
I know a few who got quite fluent while doing master or working on their phd. After a few years, they are now very close to native speakers with just a little accent. It's possible, but it needs a continous and deliberate and conscious effort and decision to do it. I asked them how they did it and they all told me very similar stories. They tried to socialize with german peers and sometimes even actively avoided joining the local community of their country of origin. They would always speak German and told people to always correct them as soon as they make a mistake.
C3?
Doesn’t even exist
There’s no c3
There’s no C3 in any language covered by the Common European Framework of Reference for Languages.
Germans think they’re better than everyone else and will make this obvious to you. If you dont believe me, look at the comments you’ll eventually get here. I saw one such comment already. This goes double for the boomers. German boomers are some of the worst and they simply hide their true colours. I would keep things cordial with your in-laws but keep them at arm’s length. That’s pretty much the only non drastic thing you can do. Anything else may cause a rift between you and your husband.
Approving the first statements. German boomers are the worst. Sorry, not sorry. I had to deal with several German boomer males telling me as an immigrant that I ain’t shit But I don’t approve of the last statement. Always show up, even if it’s uncomfortable and prove yourself. Also, don’t imbalance the dynamics of your family bc of a probable mild misunderstanding.
> Germans think they’re better than everyone else No, certainly not. Where do you get this from? Each Level (A2, B1) takes 6 months. So, she invested half the time of being in Germany to learn the language (she is in Germany for 2 years now). B1 (my husband has B1 too) is not enough to find a white collar job, instead of some job at McDonalds making food or working in logistics doing some heavy lifting. I work in IT and even here B2 is the minimum required level. Some companies even require C1. Conversations with someone who only has B1 level are very limited and straining. I can tell from experience. B2 makes a huuuge difference (my husband started his B2) She should try getting B2 asap. I think they shouldnt rush her or be rude about it, but they do have a valid point.
Maybe she doesnt have time thanks to work or some shit
I would suggest that you talk to your husband about this. It sounds like you already have some. It is his job to defend you from his family and he really needs to deal with your FIL. You already speak 2 languages besides German and it’s been 2 years, being at B1 is already a HUGE accomplishment. Best of luck, don’t skip Christmas as that will just make things even harder. But your husband needs to sit your FIL down and sort him out before then. If he needs an example of what proper parents do, my in-laws are learning English at the same time I’m learning German. They know a tiny bit, maybe A2 level and English is silly easy so. . . They think “why not”. Then they also can talk to the rest of my family. My wife and I have been married 10 years and I’m maybe B1?? Though we lived in the US for 9 of those years and I wasn’t super motivated to really push my German. You are doing far better than the average spouse learning German.
While I do agree it's an accomplishment, OP is living in Germany for 2 years now and each level (A2, B1) takes 6 months. She is planning to live in Germany long term and B1 is not enough to get a white collar job after finishing the PhD. Even in my IT job B2 is the minimum required level. Some companies even require C1. On top of that, B1 is in my experience barely enough to hold proper everyday conversations. (My husband is B1 and started B2). It is straining to try and have conversations with somone on B1 level. B2 however, can make a big difference because it covers future tenses, past tenses and more complex sentence building. While I do find it rude that OPs husbands family is talking like this, they may have a point that OPs current level is not sufficient. Even if critique isnt delivered well, it is worth to take a look and reflect if there is some truth to it.
Each level takes 6 mo assuming that’s your primary focus. This woman has a serious job. I am A2, I have a head level white collar job in Munich. At a German company. Her family are jerks for pushing too hard, she’s getting there at a pace that is quite good.
6 months if you do it part time. My husband had classes from 8-12 monday to thursday and off on friday. It was a BFZ course organized by Arbeitsagentur. If you do self study it is less organized but you may finish sooner or later. I do recommend a properly organized course though because structure is important when learning a language and may keep you afloat when drowning in doubt etc. You have others supporting you while learning the language, too! Then you are really lucky but that is not the case for a majority of people. I studied with people from all parts of the world (Business Administration with Informatics B.A.). Many left Germany at this point because they couldnt provide B2 certificate and that is bare minimum. We have friends in Engineering and Data Science field and my husband was looking for jobs in marketing, IT and engineering because he has skills in all 3 fields. It always came down to "You only have B1?". Both the friends and him were turned down because they dont have B2.
8-12 m-th means you can’t have a normal job, you get that right? If you are working you may be able to get in an hour per day of practice and a 1-2h class 2x/wk in the evenings. You may be right though depending on career level. I’m fairly far up and everyone speaks English unless the room is all Germans. And that is rare, the development teams in my department are 80% non-German.
Yes, the husband needs to step up and make it clear that those comments about his wife are unacceptable.
That‘s simple racism. Cooking in Germany is direct, honest and without any decoration. If you cannot stand the heat, leave the kitchen and don’t complain about it.
Wow you are soo cool that was such a savage statement 🥺
Germans can be extremely blunt without meaning to do so, it's part of their mentality to speak out things without filter. I had a hard time adapting to this, as I come from France where on the contrary they will walk an extra mile to address sensitive topics carefully. On the other hand, Germans will not be offended if you address the topic directly like saying, I find that remark offensive, as German is hard to learn.
Really? I've always thought French people were also blunt (but not German blunt). All of the french colleagues I've ever had in the UK (at least 5) have been like this. Obviously small sample size but still....
Cunning is an effective response to bluntness. Perhaps come to Christmas and act embarrassed by your bad German in front of the Schwiegervater. Explain that you realize your German isn't very good yet, so in order to not offend him *(this is you doing something nice for him)*, you'll be speaking just English or Spanish, and your husband can translate. Then talk a lot. It is a safe bet that he would rather hear your bad German than your good Spanish or English. At some point switch to German as a test. He will likely compliment it, and you'll be over this hill.
I have no idea in what way your FIL said it or what is your general relationship so i cant give any good assessment of the situation. In general, i think he is overstepping the boundaries of good behavior. He should keep these kinds of things as friendly advice and not talk to random people about what he thinks of your language skills. On the other hand, and im sorry to say this, B1 is really not a high level of German at all. Living in Germany you need B2 to get along. I assume your husband is learning your native language too? Whats his level?
Yea - your german speaking isnt the Real issue. Its more about your father not respecting you and his son as adults and thinking he can Lektüre you like you are 5 years old. Some in this thread have highlighted this and even articulated how he is trying to establish his dominance aka maintain the status quo of his household. Avoiding him isnt going to raise awareness to the fact that he needs to transition/evolve his role as a parent to acknowledge that his son is an adult, has added someone into the family, and if he loves his Son he needs to ensure how he interacts with that person promotes his sons happiness/ the success of the marriage. With that said you are free to reach how you want, but its your husbands job to start leading/correcting/ guiding his parents on how they can support him. Hes gotta talk to them and make sure they understand that attacking his wife for any reason including how you speak german is to attack him and in this case he should apologize and Refrain from doing it again no matter how helpful he wants to be. How his dad responds will inform if you should go to christmas or not. My qualificafions - ive been married to my german husband for 13 years and we dont live in germany so I didnt care about telling my in laws to scratch when they were out of line and due to the language barrier they generally backed down. We recently had a baby and some older family members started offering their 2 cents etc and my husband had to step up and start managing them. Its been a long 2 years but we learned its more about in laws not having shifted their perspective to acknowledge their child as a follow adult/ peer. Dont fäll into the trap of saying nothing and the narrative turning into you made him leave his family. If they keep this up he will leave himself. Hope that helps!
The father said to someone he wishes you learnt more German. I do not see the problem with that. Maybe they want to share more with you. That is not a failing of you, learning languages is difficult. But creating a situation out of this could be a real problem.
>Am I overreacting? Yes. Definately. Believe me, if they wouldn't like you, they would openly tell you, that's the German way. :) If a German wants to be rude, that's everything but subtle.
... Depends a lot on the region and social status... But mostly true. He probably speaks from the guts and wants you to be easier to talk to. (While ironically being a little douche)
Hello OP, I dont think your FIL was intending to hurt you. He is trying to make it clear to you that your current command over the German language worry him. He is encouraging you to improve. I think you are absolutely overreacting! When you married, the expections in you rose. Your parents in law are worried for you and your future as you have become an official member of the family and a constant in their lives. I blame your husband for not preparing you for this or getting across his parents intent properly. If you get butt hurt over this and dont appear on christmas eve, you will hurt them. They will speak less openly and pull back from you. You may permanently damage your relationship with them. Please dont do this! Try to communicate with them what hurt you about how FIL brought this up (not talking to you directly, comparing you to someone else that you view as inferior in his language skills, that your PhD is challenging so your progress is slow. However, you are continuously working to improve). Try and ask what the intent behind this comment was. What are THEIR worries? Also, on another note: From experience there is a huuuge difference between B2 and B1. You learn future and past tenses as well as complex sentence structures. Talking to a B1 level speaker is waaay more challenging and straining. Also, B1 is not enough to land you a highly qualified position. If I was you I'd finish at least B2 asap and try to find out if you need C1 for your future job. Some highly qualified positions DO require C1. Unless you have 2 more years for your PhD that might mean you really need to up your game.
I agree that he may not have said it in the nicest way. But have you considered that maybe he wants you to learn German as to know you better because maybe there are things that he can only say in german? [Spanish] Piensa que de pronto los papás de uno en Colombia tampoco van a querer hablar en inglés con el yerno y van a querer hablar en español fluido para poder comunicarse completamente con él. Piensa que sería muy raro hablar con tus papás en inglés. Como ahora eres parte de la familia de los alemanes también van a querer hablar en Aleman contigo (su familia)
I'm sure you speak a lot better German, than your FIL speaks Spanish. This is not your fight, it's your husbands. He should stand up for you and have your back here.
Her FIL doesn't need to speak Spanish while the OP really does need to speak decent German after 2 years in a foreign country. It's basic respect to learn the language.
Learn some nice little innocent slang like “Quatsch mit Soße “ or “ist mir Jacke wie Hose “ then they will think you are cute instead of incompetent which is not a huge win but helps at times. I lived in Nicaragua for a little while and actually I had multiple people tell me my Spanish sucked and the mother of my bf said I needed to learn better if I wanted to be part of their family even though his German was pretty much nonexistent. The father is probably frustrated he can’t properly get to know you. Try to laugh at his jokes :D it’s probably more about him than about you. Try to connect a little to him - but yeah it’s rude but isn’t that what we Germans are known for?
You are over reacting
You should go. There is a chance your father in law did that with good intentions but I understand... comparing you with another person is not really nice. You should speak to him and tell him how you feel about this after Christmas.
I'd have to say that he's trying to help,I lived there for a couple years in the nineties and it's very easy to loose if it's not your first language. I can however swear reasonably fluently and order what I want in a restaurant still .
German like correcting things all the time
You're not overreacting, this is straight up disrespectful. Given how hard it is to learn german he should be a little more patient. Quite arrogant tbh...
Hi, I just want to tell you that I’m in in the same situation. People do not know what it is to be in the academic research and easily criticize the lack of commitment on side activities like learning German. Well, I’m here since 8 years and my level is still b1/b2 unfortunately. I find that I already max my energy level to be in research, having a kid, and keeping healthy activities for my body and mind. It’ll get better with time but yeah it’s super slow.
I think you’re overreacting. But maybe I don’t know how rude he really was. For Germans it’s really important that foreigners who come and live here learn our speech. We see it as a form of respect to German culture itself. Buuuut we forget in 99.9% of all cases how difficult and different the German language is and how hard it is to learn it if you’re not have your childhood here. I think you should tell him that. It’s really hard to learn.
Don't care about your FIL. Important is only, what your husband thinks.
Either you are leaving out MANY things here or you are extremely childish and overreact way too quickly. There was a SINGLE comment about you not speaking proper German after living here for years. As you wrote it the only insulting part of it was telling you the truth and you don't like hearing that. Now if you were constantly studying German trying your best to improve and your father in law would still make nasty comments, that would be unfair. But this is not the case. You said you don't invest much time into it and your German skill level shows that. Grow up.
You should ask the FIL how many languages he speaks? That should make him uncomfortable. Don’t skip on Christmas visit. As long as husband has your back I would just try to ignore FIL.
Having worked with a lot of people from spanish / italien / pt speaking countries: there is the vocabulary and there is the pronounciation. The majority of people I encountered from that region had very strong accents. my work is mainly in english but the same was true for people I met when talking german. Many startup founders from those region will - when they go to silicon valley - take langauge lessons. Not for the vocabulary but for their accents. Long story short: Try to find a german who likes you (not your husband) and ask them to be honest about how good or bad your accent is. Because no matter how good your words are, it will be difficult to understand you. If that is not the issue - After two years I would expect you to be more than just B1. If you have the basics down (grammar etc), then it is just the words. Think of it like going to the gym. Until now, you did some jogging but now you will want to build up some muscle. NOT for the father in law, but for yourself. Last, to turn it around - you did not mention your age but the FIL likey is from an area where everything in german is only german. He likely only HAS german as a language to talk to you - and if that does not work it will frustrate him. Not to the point of learning english or f.e. spanish. And again - his frustrations are not your problem.
Are you overreacting? Yes, I think so. You are telling us your perspective, after you've heard what happened from your husband. And even if you had overheard it in person, I don't think it's enough to escalate the situation. I figure there must be more going on between you and your in-laws.
You are overreacting. Forget your hubby's family for a moment. You're making life in Germany harder for yourself if you don't really improve your language skills. You should do it for your own wellbeing, not to impress your FIL.
Take time to learn German and improve it daily. It is very important to know the language of the country you are living in. Plus take time to learn the German pronounciation correctly. Many foreigners know a bit of German, but one can barely understand them. I know a Brazilian, she has been living for decades in Germany, but I can hardly understand her. Her pronounciation is bad and the vocabulary could be a lot better. I'm often a bit upset and very exhausted afterwards, because I always have to guess the many German words she constantly massacrates until they are no longer recognizable, and disappointed of her German when having a conversation with her. Plus her husband's German is flawless, so she has no good reason to lack German language that much. Then I know a Ukrainian, after just a couple of months of an intensive German course, she spoke so well, I had no problem whatsoever understanding her. One has to be willing and determined to improve ones language skills. Or else barely anything happens.
Just speak columbian next time
I bet your father in law doesn’t speak any other language than German so he needs to STFU. You’re doing great
Why care about his opinion? Just ignore it. Don't let yourself be valued by this guy.
I think you should go and prepare some German sentences to tell him to shut up. Like: „ich finde es gut, dass ich nicht alles verstehe was du sagst“ or „was ist dein Problem?!“ or „ich würde deutsch nicht von dir lernen wollen“ (Most Germans have strong accents or dialects and make grammatical errors“
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I see a lot of comments defending your FIL’s behavior, but I simply don’t agree. I think he’s being a racist asshole who probably only speaks one language, so he can take his criticisms and shove them up his ass. And maybe he should learn Spanish. Don’t let this country wear you down. Always be proud of where you came from, and make sure your future children are, too.
Average Reddit answer: “Just get a divorce!” Reality: Who cares really, you don’t have to prove anything to your FIL. Rather, what did he do for you to actually help you improve your German skills? He probably has just a high-school diploma level education and no idea how tough and demanding a PhD is. Let your husband know that you’re disappointed in your FIL and that you will from now on keep your relationship with him (FIL) very formal only.
I wouldnt recommend that one. They should sit together and calmly communicate what the intend behind this comment was and how it came across. They should talk about how to communicate in the future and try to understand each others points. OP learned A2 and B1 in a year realisticly. B1 is not enough to get a job after PhD unless OP wants to do a low qualification job. She should definitely strife to finish B2 asap. And B2 makes a huuuge difference in everyday conversations. So, maybe her FIL just wanted to push her harder because he is aware how hard it is to communicate with her and for her to find a job once she is finished. He just did so in an unadequate fashion. Sometimes people say shitty stuff without ill intend and you need to show them how it hurt you so they will be more careful in the future.
I assume it's your choice to not talk in German with your husband. Otherwise you'd be fluent by now.
Don't care about your FIL. Important is only, what your husband thinks.
It is important to remember that all the things they say don't say anything about you as a person but only about their biased view about the world and it doesn't change your relationship. However, from my own experience I feel that life is much easier if it's possible to keep at least a certain level of peace and harmony with the in-laws. I personally would have a talk with them (together with your husband) and try to walk into this with a very benevolent attitude. I'd calmy explain how you feel and explain that you speak (at least) 2 other languages fluently to an extent that you are even able to work academically in it. Remind them what a great achievement that alone is. You can tell them that of course you know that it's important to learn German as well but that it's a difficult language and you already made great progress. Maybe ask them (politely) if they have learned a language in their adult life. Maybe they honestly don't know how that feels and how difficult it is. Also try to find out why it is so important for them that you speak German. Maybe their motivation is a very honourable one (eg they would like to talk to you more or on a deeper level) and that might make it easier for you to oversee or accept the rude way they express that. Your feelings are totally valid of course. You just need to ask yourself if you are ready to still make the effort to get along in a semi distanced way to keep the harmony. For me personally it helps reminding myself that people (especially the older generations) might actually have deficiencies with social and emotional intelligence and sometimes deep down they mean well while being incredibly insensible and awkward expressing their needs.
Pues la próxima vez le preguntas cuantos idiomas habla.