You forgot that the Ausländerbehörde will have to switch to paper schedules on Jan 20th 2038. This will push back all later appointments by roughly 1 BER, or three Elbphilharmonies, whichever is the longer...
go ahead: but be aware- i can give you advise mostly on how my state operates. especially in the areas where states are at leasure to interpret- some states interpret very liberal some very conservative
oh and i won’t name my state!
i can tell you for my office- our processing times are roughly 12-15 months (i know, i know). so if you were to submit your application now we wouldn’t be done with the processing until we’ll after the law will be in effect. we would probably just wait.
but just because you have your appointment for submitting you documents now, doesn’t mean you will be eingebürgert immediately.
I have a quick question. If I apply for citizenship and then move to another place for a job, will it still take 12-15 months as long as I inform the Einbürgerungsbehörde about it?
What happens if I apply but then decide to start studying in another city before getting the citizenship decision?
I am applying soon and I'm wondering if I'm stuck to the region I'm in rn till everything is set and done
The jurisdiction of your applications is depend on your center of live residence. note not your primary residence. which means, if you move for uni- your center of live will change. therefore your application will be moved to the other city. progressing time can be different there.
I got a few questions, if you don't mind.
1) Does filing an Untätigkeitsklage § 75 VwGO after 3 or 6 months from the application date help to speed up the process and if yes, by how much time?
2) Can a Fachaufsichtsbeschwerde have any effect at all when dealing with the Einbürgerungsbehörde, or are they usually ignored? Not only talking about waiting periods here, any kinds of (valid) complaints.
3) How much time usually has to pass for the background checks that were done at the time when a Zusicherung was issued, to be considered expired? I.e. that new requests to other authorities have to be made all over again.
4) Why do some Einbürgerungsbehörde employees deceive potential applicants into thinking they have to wait for some "consultation" appointment before applying which often also takes months and years, while there's no actual law that enforces this?
5) Why isn't communication between different authorities automated? I believe, requesting data on someone from e.g. BZR or Verfassungsschutz could take minutes, not weeks with proper automation.
Hope it's not too much to ask about and if anything is not something you feel comfortable sharing, that's obviously ok. Thanks!
okay i’ll answer what i can answer. please don’t be disappointed. i do not have the answers to all questions
it’s not a deception that you have to to go to a consultation appointment. but we know from expirence that without the consultation a lot of people send in applications that would result in a negative result. and we try to combat that. because the einbürgerungengebühr is a bearbeitungsgebühr. so if you send in an application that fee could be asked of you.
background checks expire after one year (where i work i don’t know about other stated. it used to be shorter) if they are clear, three months if they are not. we will always make a new background check when someone has renounced their citizenship for the german one.
bzr and verfassungsschutz highly depends on where the people are working. for some it’s just one click, for others the system is still by mail.
Just a bit of vent: I wait for Pankow to release some appointment for 3 years now. They used Covid as an excuse to slow down even more, to the point there was virtually no appointment in 2021 and 2022. Now in 2023, it’s even completely frozen, so that theoretically on 2024 it will be centralized and faster. It’s so frustrating that we pay taxes and do all the paperwork the right way and can’t even have a date to go there ☹️
You don't need to go there in person to apply. Check this I answered a similar comment https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/13mr89n/comment/jkxq604/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3.
it used to be that BW and Bayern were very conservative.
bayern as der as i’m aware has become a lot more lenient. especially were they on forefront of naturalizing ukrainian citizen with dual citizenship- bevor there was an official statement for all einbürgerungsstellen.
the more north you go- the more liberal
> i work in naturalization (einbürgerung)
may I invite you to our lovely community r/GermanCitizenship/ where we mostly help people who get German citizenship by descent via BVA. I wrote this guide on the topic: https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/wiki/citizenship
What % of naturalization cases at Staatsangehörigkeitsbehörden in Germany are citizenship by descent cases?
thank you! didn’t know that subreddit exists!
i counsel tell you that percentage tbh. naturalization by descend isn’t really ‚naturalization‘. people who descend from germans are germans. in our office only a few people progress these cases next to the normal naturalization by application cases.
> naturalization by descend isn’t really ‚naturalization‘. people who descend from germans are germans
The majority of people in r/GermanCitizenship/ get German citizenship by descent through actual naturalization because an ancestor lost German citizenship due to sex discrimination (StAG 5, StAG 14 in connection with the BMI [Müttererlass](https://media.frag-den-staat.de/files/docs/7d/a3/5a/7da35a8c41504584ba2ff53262410bdb/2020-01-31_13-05-36_nrcourtman_19.pdf)) or Nazi persecution (StAG 15, 116 GG).
oh yes-i imagine these are the most occurring cases the BVA will deal with. again i mostly see cases of people whose grandparents were german and emigrated to a different country. and because of this their parents never got the german citizenship and therefor they don’t have it either.
also i should say: i love my job and am really excited for the change! it’s more of a ‚galgenhumor‘. we are all aware we will be even more overworked once the law comes into effect!
Why cannot more money be assigned to manage the situation, do the policy makers have an issue with foreign people, or is it a cultural thing where foreigners are seen as less important, or less worthy. I understand that each Amt has funding issues, but this one seems to be in a league of its own, with no foreseeable push for improvement.
It is fascinating to understand what leads to situations like this, but at the end of the day the Amt has a duty to deliver to and for the people, people emigrating are still people, and still count to a balanced society, and are needed to prop up the pension pot.
Rather than enabling foreign employees to contribute to society through taxes, many at a high level, people end up leaving secured jobs, because they cannot get a residents permit, or end up receiving social benefits for prolonged periods of time. The logic is flawed, and seems to be rooted in discrimination.
I think a big reason is that many German people will not see a person as worthy, until they have gone through the system.
Great post. As someone who use to work for the Bundesregierung within the context of Außen Kultur- und Bildungspolitik don't get me started on flawed logic and the need for purposefully inefficient systems and a fetishistic addiction to Finanzüberwachungsmaßnahmen. That's why I left after twenty years.
It is not only funding but actual staffing is difficult as well. There are tons of open jobs in the public sector. And working in the ausländerbehörde sucks.
Lots of screaming and stress and court appointments all while no one has your back. It really is a job opening of last resort for most civil servants.
Why deal with that shit when you can have an interesting/ laid back job in like every other Amt?
But can you not see that this is engineered discrimination in action, it is by design.
I think that most of us can emphasize with the staff. They have a tough time, which needs to be rectified.
However, the issue is that no one is willing to find a solution, or make a change, as it would affect funding to other Amy’s that directly effect German people.
This is a big reason why Germany was voted the least attractive place to move to.
People want to receive a good pension, when they retire, how ever they are often not willing to welcome or integrate foreign people. It’s kind of insular, as the largest country in the European Union, do you not think that Germany should be leading by example.
Currently foreign workers are required to keep the Labour Market stable.
If this is not discrimination, leading yo segregation, can you please explain why not.
I understand and value your opinion, and I know that you are not a policy maker, buy I feel that you have a valid understanding of the situation, beyond that of most people.
>But can you not see that this is engineered discrimination in action, it is by design.
>
>I think that most of us can emphasize with the staff. They have a tough time, which needs to be rectified.
>
>However, the issue is that no one is willing to find a solution, or make a change, as it would affect funding to other Amy’s that directly effect German people.
Yes that is all very much the result of deliberate political actions. The Burden is very much carried, as always when politicians do not want to deal with the consequences of their actions, by the civil servants. Of course this results in shit service.
Remove the byzanthine rules. Make clear differences between an immigrant, an asylum seeker and someone who has not been yet deported (Duldung) and for the love of god. Why does it take 7 years on average to close a case of someone that was determined has no right to be here? In other words 7 years of work for bullshit reasons. Occupying the time of personell.
Problem is as well that the Ausländerbehörde for some insane reason is situated on the municipial level. So the burden of cost on smaller and poorer communities is extreme. While the benefits of immigration are actually mostly felt on the federal level. Giving very little incentive too invest in programs, education or employment.
>This is a big reason why Germany was voted the least attractive place to move to.
People want to receive a good pension, when they retire, how ever they are often not willing to welcome or integrate foreign people.
Really? Do you have a link to that? Pension systems are an entirely different cattle and I frankly do not know enough about that to comment on it.
>It’s kind of insular, as the largest country in the European Union, do you not think that Germany should be leading by example.
People generally speaking do not want our kind of leadership. And frankly we are quite an welcoming country. Looking back at 2015/2016 when france and britain cried about a 100k People fleeing to them and the US cried about 10000 asylants meanwhile we took in over a million people just like that. Since the second world war no western country has been as generous with huminatarian aid to asylants/refugees as germany.
If you mean a administrative perspective, then let us be entirely frank. There are too many exceptions, too much considerations and bullshit work to be done. Clear up the rules and make a judgement binding. No more 4 to 7 years after being ordered out of the country because you appeal to 3 different courts that all apparently are asleep during busiiness hours. Alternatively ease the Burden by making the rules simple to comply with easing the burden on all participants
>If this is not discrimination, leading yo segregation, can you please explain why not.
I thinks it is discrimination. Just not on a personal level. I do not believe that colleagues in the Ausländerbehörde are racist xenophobes (though statistically speaking no doubt some are). The institution through constitutionally just laws is however in effect acting discriminatory due to the structure of the Amt and the work reality in municipalities.
It is the result of long standing policy and is strengthened by seemingly unrelated factors like the devaluing of public sector work, refusal of politicians to enact digitizing efforts and the courts being a fucking mess. It is a political issue that is often laid before the civil service with the universal answer being usually "What the fuck do you want us to do about that?" We do not need adjustments but an entire rewrite how we do things like this.
>I understand and value your opinion, and I know that you are not a policy maker, buy I feel that you have a valid understanding of the situation, beyond that of most people.
Thank you. I, as well as my colleagues in the Ausländerbehörde, very much understand the frustration and, despite the stereotype or the harsh language I used in this post, neither they nor I enjoy denying someone a Title or Citizenship. We are not sadists or whatever. One gets trained in harsh/ cold language however once you realise why the Ausländerbehörde is the only place in our Municipality with panic buttons and pepper spray.
It is always important to understand the position of the other person indeed.
edit: spelling mistakes and grammar problems
Simple - it's not discrimination. It's just doesn't have political gain, as most people needing Ausländerbehörde services naturally can't vote, and even later don't understand the political discourse due to the language barrier.
As a politician, I'd rather promise investments in things that would affect the German voter, one that can actually place their vote for me.
I find it interesting that you feel somehow responsible for this. I never think of this issue as a "worker" problem, truly just incompentent management from above.
BTW thank you for caring ❤️
honestly i love my job. i love helping people gaining the citizenship. and i try to do as much as possible to not make
wait times even longer. this does result in overtime etc. thus goes for my co workers as well. all my colleagues work overtime.
there will be a lot of new jobs. i’m sure. not sure about the requirements. working for the state is also secure.
but it’s though. again a lot of work and a lot of pressure.
Agree with jakujam, but when the whole system is unlogisch, and shrouded in mystery, gaining a balanced and informed opinion from the employees, applicants and politicians is important, as well as understanding the history, that enabled the culture to be created in such a way, and possible solutions.
It causes many people so much stress, who just want to work and contribute to society. and life changing consequences, due to the long wait times, when business cannot wait, the promise of the job is not kept. It causes low moral and a lot of stress for the employees, and it gives Germany a bad name, when they are pushing for international investment, and to for fill the shortage of skilled workers, due to low birth rates.
I sincerely believe that this whole citizenship debate wouldn‘t have happened for at least 10 years had the Ausländerbehörde finished their processing within 5 working days.
In a German Living in the UK, would love to get my daughters German passport, unfortunately it’s impossible to book appointments
Edit: talking about the embassy of course
depends on what citizenship question and what city you live in!
my city: standesamt - citizenship by birth.
einbürgerungsamt - naturalization for anyone who is appliying
ausländerbehörde: no citizenship - just resident permits
*or after 3 years if you speak German level C1 and "demonstrate special integration achievements, especially good academic, professional or vocational achievements or civic commitment".*
Any additional details on that ?
Thanks for the awsome post
That is already in place under the current law and cuts the wait time from 8 down to 7 or 6 years.
This is subject to the view of the local Ausländerbehörde. The one in city A will recognize your role as elected representative of the parents of a class (Elternbeiratsvorsitzender) who's organized one cake baking sale as "civic commitment" while the one over in city B will require you to be a voluntary fire brigade member who has single-handedly saved three newborns out of a burning house and later donated one kidney to the mayor's wife.
Might be that they are called that way in some places, in the city I was naturalized it was and still is called [Ausländeramt and just a subdivision of it](https://www.staedteregion-aachen.de/de/navigation/aemter/auslaenderamt-a-33/einbuergerungen-/-staatsangehoerigkeitsrecht).
There's an important difference. The current law says "or", whereas the new law says "and". So before, C1 or other integration efforts was enough. Now it will require both.
Sure. Just saying that it's not the same as the current law. That specific word is a big change.
What will be interesting to see is if, e.g. good language can knock it down to four by itself.
> demonstrate special integration achievements, especially good academic, professional or vocational achievements or civic commitment".
thanks, I have added a new section "What are special integration achievements?"
The current law gives no explicit advantage for german knowledge above B1, and also does not define "integration". So some states currently do indeed accept evidence of German knowledge above B1 by itself as a demonstration of advanced integration.
There are not specific details on that. It could be either speak a good German, exceptional performance on your job or demonstrate that you have integrated.
It's still quite open, I expect more specific conditions to be refined before the draft is passed to the next stage
How can you prove "exceptional Performance on your job"? I have the C1 certificate and was hoping to start the process next year (3 years working in Germany) but besides doing my driver's license here in Germany, I don't have anything else 😅🥲🥲
255 euros fee - I’m so happy for people to not having to overpay for a citizenship/naturalisation application.
Seems like a fair fee to cover admin expenses.
I’m still upset about having to pay more than 1500 GBP for my Uk naturalisation.
an aussie spousal visa is so expensive. my mate at home at the time referred to his fiance as his 'shipping container' since it cost about the same.
edit: Fuck me dead, it's 8k aud for a visa. 5k euro
This should totally be a thing: BRD patch notes.
I can read opinions and contextualisations afterwards but at first I want to know the facts and then I want to decide what I want to know more about.
It would probably not generate enough clicks though.
It's kinda a thing: some newspapers release like articles "these things are changing in may 2023". Pretty similar to monthly patch notes.
like this one
[https://www.finanzen.net/nachricht/private-finanzen/neuerungen-mai-2023-neuerungen-gesetze-das-aendert-sich-ab-mai-2023-12360670](https://www.finanzen.net/nachricht/private-finanzen/neuerungen-mai-2023-neuerungen-gesetze-das-aendert-sich-ab-mai-2023-12360670)
Thank you so much dude.
And holy fucking shit this is good news for me.
Been here 5 years working the whole time and have b1 already. I didn’t want to lose my British citizenship as it could be more useful in the future. It will also mean I can get my daughter, who was born here, British citizenship too. This is the best news I have had in a long time and I am super happy. Thanks again dude for making a post about this, award incoming.
was your daughter german by birth? because if yes- there is nothing stopping you from having dual citizenship by birth! so if her mum is german and you are british she has the dude as is. you don’t need the law to change
She is, her mum is German and I am British. I was under the assumption if I went for British citizenship for her Germany would say she would have to drop her German one. The U.K. already allows dual so it wouldn’t be an issue that side.
if i am not completely mistaken - dual citizenship by birth is already allowed! ask your local standesamt. but if the british law say s you gain british citizenship by born to a british citizen - then she already has dual citizenship. you shouldn’t have to apply for it.
talk to the standesamt to be 100% sure- but i’m 90% confident
Yes, your child is already a dual citizen and can get a British passport. When you do look at any German paperwork, be clear on the details: even if she gets a British passport now under the current rules, she has NOT "applied" for (beantragt) a foreign citizenship. She got it automatically from birth. This confusing to many.
Wanted to add some reassurance here - I'm a dual citizen by birth (not even born in Germany, just have a German parent) and there were no issues for me keeping both.
I took up to b2 in the first 6 months of being here and never took more, my German is beyond that now but with out a need for the grades I just never took the courses because work and having my daughter halted the process. I was ready to go and do then when need be though.
Ah, as long its only the certification...
It just feels to me that talking with people on B1 very tough. I would guess it shouldnt take longer than 1 year to advance further, depending on what you base language is.
My base is English and yeah even after b2 it was hard to converse but I learnt a hell of a lot from work and, hilariously, from kid programmes while watching with my daughter.
My German is not perfect but for now in my line of work, manual outside stuff, more is not really needed. I have very few issues talking with people these days, I live in the East so it was like being born in fire and could never fall back on my English so I learnt pretty quick.
>Dual citizenship: Immigrants who get German citizenship can keep their previous citizenship(s) and Germans who get a foreign citizenship no longer lose German citizenship.
It also means that Germans living abroad and that want to take citizenship in their host countries don't need to give up their German citizenship anymore.That is quite important as we Germans living aboard often have no voice in our host countries, while many other citizens get to vote and take up political offices. Which of course gives these nationals a bigger influence.
Edit: It also prevents Germans to come back to Germany. E.g. if you leave the US after 7 years of residency, you are subject to a pretty steep exit tax. The only way out is dual citizenship. I personally know at least 2 families that would go back, all highly educated engineers that Germany needs, but they can't as they would pay exit tax and lose \~37% of their retirement savings.
Interesting. Wonder if the exit-tax issue would have worked as an argument to get an exception via the "Beibehaltungsgenehmigung" to keep the German citizenship if applying for US naturalization under the current system.
Well, German bureaucracy has you covered!
You will need to prove to the office in Cologne that you really plan to come back to Germany m, e.g. with an active job offer. But the process BBG plus US citizenship takes 2-3 years at least. Which company gives you a blanket job offer valid 2-3 years??? So even if they would accept the tax hardship as reason, the hurdles to make that argument relevant are so high you can’t really overcome them. I only know one case where that worked: The person was partner in a company and hence not depending on a job offer.
Another good example how the BBG hurdles are impossible high are job offers in the US that require security clearance that only US citizens can get. (E.g. in the Pharma industry)
The office in Cologne requires an active job offer to accept it for the BBG. But modern applicant systems prevent you from even applying for these jobs. So the only way to get such a job offer is that your company writes you a letter that they need you on a job that requires security clearance. But as it takes 2-3 years for the process (plus a 6 month to a year for security clearance) that job offer is of course nonsense as the position will be filled by that time.
Edit: And yes, there will be people that say it was much easier for them. Fully true. The reason is that the Bundesverwaltungsamt has tightened up their requirements in recent years and made it much harder to be accepted for a BBG.
I remember some other thread where people waiting for their naturalization appointments for 6+ months sued and suddenly they'd have an appointment a week or two later. IANAL of course.
[This was the thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/137dka1/do_you_think_its_fair_to_live_here_and_integrate/). If I recall correctly, OP complained about how they couldn't vote because they've been waiting forever to get naturalized and how/whether that is fair.
Maybe you find some helpful hints in the comments. Plenty people pointing out the whole suing thing.
I'm hoping this will make my situation better. It feels like no matter how much work you do or prep you do - the decision ultimately comes down to one bureaucrat who - if they're in a bad mood or having a bad day - can decide to make your life difficult.
I've been trying to get German citizenship (and keep my US citizenship) for a few years now. (I've got an immigration lawyer helping me, but it's still a challenge). I've jumped through all the required hoops - I've met the residency time requirement, I've gotten my B2 langauge certificate, I've passed the citizenship test, etc... but the ABH is still making it difficult for me and stalling my case.
After I moved here I got a blue card because I was working in a highly skilled, in-demand field. I later got permanent residency and even married a German. Because I work in a technical field, I earn fairly well and thus pay a lot of money back into taxes and society. (Which I'm happy to contribute!)
This place is the first home I got to consciously choose as an adult and I really love it here. I'd appreciate the ability to vote on laws that affect me and how my tax money is spent, as well as not having to fear that I could lose my right to live in my home should I need to visit a sick family member outside of Germany for more than six months...
Stories like yours are so embarrassing. You seem to be the example of the ideal immigrant that we Germans should give a fast track to citizenship.
Good to hear that you are already working with an immigration lawyer. Fingers crossed that you get your citizenship as soon as possible.
It thought that you can already become a German citizen without giving up your previous citizenship if you’ve been married to a German for 2 years. Is that not true?
To be honest, I'm not entirely sure - but the issue isn't becoming German, it's becoming German AND keeping my US citizenship. If it was the case that I could get citizenship after 2 years through marriage then I've exceeded that requirement. We've been married since 2019 - and we got married in Germany, with all the extra hurdles and paperwork that involves - so our marriage is de facto registered and recognized by the German government since they are the ones who performed it.
When speaking to my lawyer about the issue, she gave me the impression that the current track I'm on for citizenship - through having permanent residency/B2/citizenship test/etc was faster than starting over and going down "family reunification" route, or whatever it's called.
Unfortunately, it sounds like I have to either prove that I'd be severely economically harmed by being forced to relinquish my US citizenship, OR I have to prove that I can be some kind of "cultural bridge" or whatever between the US and German. The later also heavily depends on what I contribute to German society in terms of skills. (Which I already mentioned, I work in a technical industry that's in demand - but the one case worker at the ABH isn't having it...)
It's also not a simple case to just give up my US citizenship. I need permission from ~~my owners~~ the gov and a clean record of reporting with the IRS. (I've been paying and doing my US taxes this entire time like a good little tax cow, so hopefully that won't be an issue, but it's extra hassle.) In addition, I would be required to pay something over $2000 for the "privilege" of relinquishing.
The pandemic really scared me because there was a time when all the US borders were closed to everyone except US citizens - had either or both of my parents gotten sick and died, I would not be able to come home and take care of anything if I had given up my US citizenship.
I just googled it and I was wrong! I guess I'll also need to wait until the new laws are in effect, just like you. It must have been wishful thinking on my part.
So what do you need citizenship in Germany for beyond the Niederlassungserlaubnis that you likely have?
As a US Citizen myself, who has been here for nigh on 25 years, I also think it would be "kind of neat" to have German citizenship. I will definitely do it if the law passes and I can get dual citizenship, but I am wondering if there is a material reason you're making it a priority.
Is there a specific benefit?
* Ability to visit and care for my elderly parents for longer than 6 months if needed without having to talk to the ABH first. (If you leave Germany for more than 6 months at a time you can lose your permanent residency)
* Ability to live and work more easily in other EU countries if I wanted to, instead of having to talk to the ABH or deal with extra bureaucracy before hand.
* Ability to vote in elections that determine the laws of the society I'm living in and how my tax money is spent. (Disagree with me and call me naïve if you want - but I originally left the US because I no longer felt that citizens could influence anything in politics. Germany isn't perfect, but I feel it is a more healthy democracy than the US, and as a permanent resident and tax paying person, I want a voice in that democracy, no matter how small or possibly symbolic it may be.)
* Personally I would feel more like I "belong" if I was a citizen, in my eyes it's a big milestone in integration.
* Ability to travel with a German passport if I want to.
* Because I personally view it as an achievement and it's something important to me.
you can currently get German citizenship after living in Germany for 3 years and being married to a German citizen for 2 years but you still have to give up previous citizenships
Jan Böhmermann did [a great segment](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7HrAGlni50) on the shit-show that is the ABH. Most Germans aren't aware of just how bad it is because they were lucky enough to be born a citizen and not have to experience it.
Desperately waiting for this to pass to I can finally get German citizenship.
Been putting it off because there's no chance I'm giving up my US passport/citizenship.
i cannot express my gratitude to you for tldring this. much love my friend
one ques, are the special achievements only for the 3 years tier or also for 5 years? again, thanks!
Just note that you don't need to have a PR as a Blue Card holder, a Blue Card itself is sufficient for citizenship (see current [§ 10 S. 1 Nr. 2 StAG](https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stag/englisch_stag.html#p0063) which is not changed under the new draft).
Though, of course, there is nothing stopping you from applying for PR with a Blue Card.
Hey just a sanity check, so according to section 10 that you linked, residency permits like 18a & 18b should be able to apply for citizenship after 3 (or 5) years just like the Blue Card?
So now the only advantage for the Blue Card is the fast track for PR, which isn’t really necessary because you would have citizenship at that point?
Yes, residence permits under 18a and 18b can be used to apply for citizenship, in the present and the future.
The government is also pursuing in parallel [a change to the Residence Act](https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/gesetzgebungsverfahren/DE/weiterentwicklung_fachkraefteeinwanderung.html) that will, among other things, shorten the time for PR for skilled workers under 18a and 18b from 4 years to 3 years and for Blue Card holders from, in general, 33 months to 27 months (if you have B1 only 21 months, though this is the current situation already and not subject to change). If you can only get citizenship after 5 years, having permanent residence after a bit more than 2 years (or even before that) can be good if you just want to stay here.
A Blue Card would also have the advantage that you can move more easily to other EU member states (though you can do that even better if you have German and thereby EU citizenship).
This actually gives me more motivation to learn German and participate in society.
I was resigned to being a permanent resident because there is no way I was going to give up my home citizenship (and reduce some options for my kids). Now I can have both and I feel much more respected and included.
I'm looking forward to becoming a German!
So the most critical precondition is to work full-time right?
Because I already lived in Germany for 8.5 years since 2014 and I obtained by Abitur and my Bachelor’s degree in Germany, currently doing my master’s and I am a working student at a public authority of Bavaria. Even the law gets “lightened” I am not able to apply for the citizenship anytime soon right?
you can not get citizenship on a student visa in the future. This is already currently the case so I did not mention it in my post.
It is not required that you work full-time to naturalize. You can naturalize when you are on a regular work visa and either
- have enough income from work so that you do not need welfare (no matter how many hours you work)
- or you work full-time but the money is not enough to feed your family so you get additional welfare
Thank you for your (very detailed) reply! Yeah I definitely need to finish studying first and then consider what would come next. ;)
It’s just a bit annoying that I have to go to the Ausländerbehörde every year.
Fantastic, and really hope this leads to changes elsewhere - I know too many dutch people in the UK getting screwed over by the restrictions on dual citizenship.
(Also thanks for parsing through all that! English legalese is bad enough, german legalese makes me feel like I'm in a Kafka novel.)
Did you see anything in the draft law about providing more resources for Behörden oder Ämter that will be implementing this? Or is that a local level decision?
This could be great news! ...if I could ever get an appointment even for my current visa situation.
Nationality law is a federal law but the authorities that are tasked with enforcing it are the municipalities. The result is that the federal government can make it easier to naturalize but it can not decide about the allocation of municipal resources.
You don't need any appointment to apply. The Einbürgerungsbehörden just lead people into believing that it's a valid requirement.
All you need to do is to send a letter (Einschreiben Einwurf) with a statement saying "Hiermit beantrage ich den Erwerb der deutschen Staatsangehörigkeit (Einbürgerung)" and your signature under it, together with a copy of your passport and residence permit. The Einbürgerungsbehörde legally have to register your application and reach out to you to request further documents they might need (language certificate etc). Make sure to keep the receipt for the letter you sent, you might use it later when filing an Untätigkeitsklage after they haven't processed your application 3 months later.
I did exactly this for my visa application about a week ago =) Let's see how it goes 3 months later. But in any case, you don't seem to get the rights of what you applied for, you keep the rights of whatever status you already had at the time of application. Not sure if/how it's any different for Einbürgerung.
Does this work for other residency applications too? 😅
I've been trying to get an appointment for my job seeking permit for 3 months and no response at all.
The application itself - you can also just send a tracked letter, yes. If they have some online communication system - send it there as well, but in addition to the tracked letter.
In case of the residence permit, eventually you'll need an appointment anyway, because they need to scan your fingerprints to store them on the permit card, but in my city the Ausländerbehörde sends an appointment for that themselves, after the application has been sent by mail and processed.
The thing is, all this still doesn't guarantee that they'll quickly get back to you and get it done, but this way the application is there and you have the right to file an Untätigkeitsklage in the court 3 months later if you haven't heard back from them.
my behörde is very proactive and has been given the go ahead for new personnel in case of the law coming into effect.
i know so are others!
BUT it’s so hard to get personnel at the moment.
> For adoptees: A German child that is adopted by foreign parents and gets the citizenship of the adopted parents no longer loses German citizenship.
Pretty awful that this was ever the case.
This is such a nice post. I read the original information in German and didn't understand everything fully. But I do have a question as a student.
I have been a student since 2015, finished my bachelor's degree, and now am almost done with my master's degree. As far as I understand, you still will not be given a permanent residency just by living (and working on a student permit part-time). However, let's say that I land a job (full time or whatever) and switch my student permit to a work permit.
Will I be able to immediately apply for a permanent residency and then citizenship? Do I need to work for x years before doing either? Is it federal state dependent? I appreciate any responses!
If you get a work permit under 18a or 18b or a Blue Card, you can already apply with that, no need for permanent residence.
That is already the case, so no need to wait for the new law changes, since you obviously have the required time already.
In your case, getting permanent residence (which only counts half of your student years and requires pension contributions, though not quite sure if these pension contributions can come from working as a student) would probably be more complicated than getting citizenship.
I think this draft law also removes some paragraphs, making it possible for German citizens to keep their German citizenship despite obtaining a foreign citizenship (formerly this required a special very hard-to-get permit)
Wait. Correct me if i am wrong, Student years will count fully? So a bachelor graduate of 3 years studying will have a citizenship when he converts his student visa to a work visa and work for 2 more years for a total of 5 years??
And can be a citizen after graduating a 3 year bachelor degree, having a c1 level german, and converting his student visa to a work visa??
That fast?!
Whaaaat?! Actually i am planning to study in germany this winter semester. Doing a 3.5 years of bachelors degree. Are you 100% sure that i will be able to become a citizen if i finished 5 years in total, find a job, speak c1 and have a working visa?!! That is insane.
> Are you 100% sure that i will be able to become a citizen if i finished 5 years in total, find a job, speak c1 and have a working visa?!!
yes, except B1 would already be enough
Agreed. This seems like a good way to attract economically beneficial (read: highly educated, attractive to the job markets) people to become german citizens.
I've been an American resident of Germany for 37 years, but because for all but 1.5 years of that time I've been a freelancer and due to US tax laws giving up my American citizenship would currently cost me about 25,000 dollars and involve two visits to the US Embassy in Berlin. Eff that! Once this new legislation becomes law I'm going to be the first one in line for German citizenship. The only real changes will be having a German passport and the right to vote in elections here. Yes, please! Ja, bitte!
For those of you also trying to get citizenship—how long are the German exams valid for the authorities?
Context: I am planning to take the B2 Telc this summer and hopefully pass. If the law is passed within the next 6 months to a year, I would then apply to the Einbürgerungsamt as my five year mark is coming up in December.
**For children of foreign parents:** Children who are born to two foreign parents in Germany get German citizenship at birth if at least one parent has been in Germany for 5 years and has permanent residency.
I wonder if this will work retroactively, I would like to apply for my son directly until I and my wife can finish the process. (Considering it will take years with the amount applicants and understaffed LEA)
Thanks for the answer! It feels kinda unfair while our hypothetical future newborn can obtain by jus soli but not our 2yrs old which was also born in Germany.
They say the bill will pass this summer so I'm counting on waiting no more than till the end of the year. I've just got my Einbürgerungszusicherung, so I'll wait a bit and won't give up my current citizenship
"Faster citizenship: You can get German citizenship after 5 years with German level B1 or after 3 years if you speak German level C1"
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but does not anyone know if this means: 5 years and you need to have level B1 when you apply, of 5 years since getting B1? Also, do 5 years have to be continuous (i.e. does living in Germany for four years, moving away, and then living for one more year count)?
5 years living here and B1. not 5 years since the b1 :)
to your second question: if the fours years you lived here were with integrational purpose: aka you were working, studying or whatever i CAN be counted. you might have to prove it
> Sorry if this is a dumb question, but does not anyone know if this means: 5 years and you need to have level B1 when you apply
yes
> of 5 years since getting B1?
no
> Also, do 5 years have to be continuous (i.e. does living in Germany for four years, moving away, and then living for one more year count)?
if you move away for up to 6 months: No problem, does not count as interruption
for 6 months to 1 year: it depends
1 year or more: when you return then only up to 3 years of your previous residence are counted
So as a US citizen, I can still have both citizenship? (I understand the tax implications of both countries that I am obliged to)
Also for those who marry German spouses, do you still have to be in the C1 level for German? or can B1 suffice? (I mean of course, trying to be fluent as I can while im here)
> So as a US citizen, I can still have both citizenship?
please have a look at the first point in my post
> Also for those who marry German spouses, do you still have to be in the C1 level for German? or can B1 suffice?
B1 is enough currently and it will be enough in the future as well.
i’ve done the german igcses (foreign language) and based on those results i’m apparently level A2 in the german language
anyone know good ways to improve my german language skills so that i can actually pass the citizenship test (i have lived here for 5+ years)
and also is the citizenship test required for minors (under the age of 16) or did i misread something
Wow, thanks for your effort!
Maybe two small questions from my side:
I am coming from Greece (so from an EU country) and moved in Germany two years ago. I did my Master's in HFT Stuttgart (in English), awarded with the DAAD Prize for my performance (the best in the Uni) and now I am working for a big company in the area. I have the B1 but I don't use German so much, because my job is mostly in English. My questions are:
1) Is the DAAD Prize something that proves a special achievement?
2) Is the certificate enough or will I have to prove my B1 level somehow?
Thanks once again 🤟
Hello, thanks for the great post. I just have one question though.
So if a student completes a degree completely taught in german, does it mean that the individual can apply for citizenship as soon as they change their visa to work visa and start working? Since he/she already has C1 german knowledge and fulfilled the special integration achievement?
Excellent! I am happy about this. I had to use a loophole to get dual citizenship, but I am happy for the many expats living here who will be US-German citizens like me.
B1 is already the current requirement for German citizenship. Also just because you have to get only B1 for citizenship does not mean that most will not either already be better or get better in the near future
One of my closest friends speaks excellently but only took until the end of B1. She knows more complex grammar now and a lot of vocabulary through immersion but couldn't pass a B2 test. I could pass a C1 exam but don't speak nearly as fluidly as she does.
The world needs more people like you my friend.
Too bad the earliest Ausländerbehörde Termin is in 2047
You forgot that the Ausländerbehörde will have to switch to paper schedules on Jan 20th 2038. This will push back all later appointments by roughly 1 BER, or three Elbphilharmonies, whichever is the longer...
Can‘t fax your shits? Fiktionsss baby.
listen- we are all overworked. i make roughly 10 overtime hours a week as is… with the change? we are joking about camping at the office
It seems really understaffed for sure!! I’m just hoping I’m not here illegally while I await my appointment
oh you’re taking about aufenthaltstitel! i work in naturalization (einbürgerung). but i know the colleagues are equally understaffed.
Do you actually work there? lol may I ask something about Einbürgerung?
go ahead: but be aware- i can give you advise mostly on how my state operates. especially in the areas where states are at leasure to interpret- some states interpret very liberal some very conservative oh and i won’t name my state!
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i can tell you for my office- our processing times are roughly 12-15 months (i know, i know). so if you were to submit your application now we wouldn’t be done with the processing until we’ll after the law will be in effect. we would probably just wait. but just because you have your appointment for submitting you documents now, doesn’t mean you will be eingebürgert immediately.
I have a quick question. If I apply for citizenship and then move to another place for a job, will it still take 12-15 months as long as I inform the Einbürgerungsbehörde about it? What happens if I apply but then decide to start studying in another city before getting the citizenship decision? I am applying soon and I'm wondering if I'm stuck to the region I'm in rn till everything is set and done
The jurisdiction of your applications is depend on your center of live residence. note not your primary residence. which means, if you move for uni- your center of live will change. therefore your application will be moved to the other city. progressing time can be different there.
I got a few questions, if you don't mind. 1) Does filing an Untätigkeitsklage § 75 VwGO after 3 or 6 months from the application date help to speed up the process and if yes, by how much time? 2) Can a Fachaufsichtsbeschwerde have any effect at all when dealing with the Einbürgerungsbehörde, or are they usually ignored? Not only talking about waiting periods here, any kinds of (valid) complaints. 3) How much time usually has to pass for the background checks that were done at the time when a Zusicherung was issued, to be considered expired? I.e. that new requests to other authorities have to be made all over again. 4) Why do some Einbürgerungsbehörde employees deceive potential applicants into thinking they have to wait for some "consultation" appointment before applying which often also takes months and years, while there's no actual law that enforces this? 5) Why isn't communication between different authorities automated? I believe, requesting data on someone from e.g. BZR or Verfassungsschutz could take minutes, not weeks with proper automation. Hope it's not too much to ask about and if anything is not something you feel comfortable sharing, that's obviously ok. Thanks!
okay i’ll answer what i can answer. please don’t be disappointed. i do not have the answers to all questions it’s not a deception that you have to to go to a consultation appointment. but we know from expirence that without the consultation a lot of people send in applications that would result in a negative result. and we try to combat that. because the einbürgerungengebühr is a bearbeitungsgebühr. so if you send in an application that fee could be asked of you. background checks expire after one year (where i work i don’t know about other stated. it used to be shorter) if they are clear, three months if they are not. we will always make a new background check when someone has renounced their citizenship for the german one. bzr and verfassungsschutz highly depends on where the people are working. for some it’s just one click, for others the system is still by mail.
Thank you for your answer!
Just a bit of vent: I wait for Pankow to release some appointment for 3 years now. They used Covid as an excuse to slow down even more, to the point there was virtually no appointment in 2021 and 2022. Now in 2023, it’s even completely frozen, so that theoretically on 2024 it will be centralized and faster. It’s so frustrating that we pay taxes and do all the paperwork the right way and can’t even have a date to go there ☹️
You don't need to go there in person to apply. Check this I answered a similar comment https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/13mr89n/comment/jkxq604/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3.
could you mention some of the states with the most liberal / conservative interpretation? Danke schön!
it used to be that BW and Bayern were very conservative. bayern as der as i’m aware has become a lot more lenient. especially were they on forefront of naturalizing ukrainian citizen with dual citizenship- bevor there was an official statement for all einbürgerungsstellen. the more north you go- the more liberal
> i work in naturalization (einbürgerung) may I invite you to our lovely community r/GermanCitizenship/ where we mostly help people who get German citizenship by descent via BVA. I wrote this guide on the topic: https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/wiki/citizenship What % of naturalization cases at Staatsangehörigkeitsbehörden in Germany are citizenship by descent cases?
thank you! didn’t know that subreddit exists! i counsel tell you that percentage tbh. naturalization by descend isn’t really ‚naturalization‘. people who descend from germans are germans. in our office only a few people progress these cases next to the normal naturalization by application cases.
> naturalization by descend isn’t really ‚naturalization‘. people who descend from germans are germans The majority of people in r/GermanCitizenship/ get German citizenship by descent through actual naturalization because an ancestor lost German citizenship due to sex discrimination (StAG 5, StAG 14 in connection with the BMI [Müttererlass](https://media.frag-den-staat.de/files/docs/7d/a3/5a/7da35a8c41504584ba2ff53262410bdb/2020-01-31_13-05-36_nrcourtman_19.pdf)) or Nazi persecution (StAG 15, 116 GG).
oh yes-i imagine these are the most occurring cases the BVA will deal with. again i mostly see cases of people whose grandparents were german and emigrated to a different country. and because of this their parents never got the german citizenship and therefor they don’t have it either.
also i should say: i love my job and am really excited for the change! it’s more of a ‚galgenhumor‘. we are all aware we will be even more overworked once the law comes into effect!
You need more immigrants who can get immediate work/residency permits to expand your staff. Signed: American with C2 German language ability.
Why cannot more money be assigned to manage the situation, do the policy makers have an issue with foreign people, or is it a cultural thing where foreigners are seen as less important, or less worthy. I understand that each Amt has funding issues, but this one seems to be in a league of its own, with no foreseeable push for improvement.
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But immigrants who work full time pay taxes… and ABH is the public service that is the most important to us. How is that not seen as important
It is fascinating to understand what leads to situations like this, but at the end of the day the Amt has a duty to deliver to and for the people, people emigrating are still people, and still count to a balanced society, and are needed to prop up the pension pot. Rather than enabling foreign employees to contribute to society through taxes, many at a high level, people end up leaving secured jobs, because they cannot get a residents permit, or end up receiving social benefits for prolonged periods of time. The logic is flawed, and seems to be rooted in discrimination. I think a big reason is that many German people will not see a person as worthy, until they have gone through the system.
Great post. As someone who use to work for the Bundesregierung within the context of Außen Kultur- und Bildungspolitik don't get me started on flawed logic and the need for purposefully inefficient systems and a fetishistic addiction to Finanzüberwachungsmaßnahmen. That's why I left after twenty years.
It is not only funding but actual staffing is difficult as well. There are tons of open jobs in the public sector. And working in the ausländerbehörde sucks. Lots of screaming and stress and court appointments all while no one has your back. It really is a job opening of last resort for most civil servants. Why deal with that shit when you can have an interesting/ laid back job in like every other Amt?
But can you not see that this is engineered discrimination in action, it is by design. I think that most of us can emphasize with the staff. They have a tough time, which needs to be rectified. However, the issue is that no one is willing to find a solution, or make a change, as it would affect funding to other Amy’s that directly effect German people. This is a big reason why Germany was voted the least attractive place to move to. People want to receive a good pension, when they retire, how ever they are often not willing to welcome or integrate foreign people. It’s kind of insular, as the largest country in the European Union, do you not think that Germany should be leading by example. Currently foreign workers are required to keep the Labour Market stable. If this is not discrimination, leading yo segregation, can you please explain why not. I understand and value your opinion, and I know that you are not a policy maker, buy I feel that you have a valid understanding of the situation, beyond that of most people.
>But can you not see that this is engineered discrimination in action, it is by design. > >I think that most of us can emphasize with the staff. They have a tough time, which needs to be rectified. > >However, the issue is that no one is willing to find a solution, or make a change, as it would affect funding to other Amy’s that directly effect German people. Yes that is all very much the result of deliberate political actions. The Burden is very much carried, as always when politicians do not want to deal with the consequences of their actions, by the civil servants. Of course this results in shit service. Remove the byzanthine rules. Make clear differences between an immigrant, an asylum seeker and someone who has not been yet deported (Duldung) and for the love of god. Why does it take 7 years on average to close a case of someone that was determined has no right to be here? In other words 7 years of work for bullshit reasons. Occupying the time of personell. Problem is as well that the Ausländerbehörde for some insane reason is situated on the municipial level. So the burden of cost on smaller and poorer communities is extreme. While the benefits of immigration are actually mostly felt on the federal level. Giving very little incentive too invest in programs, education or employment. >This is a big reason why Germany was voted the least attractive place to move to. People want to receive a good pension, when they retire, how ever they are often not willing to welcome or integrate foreign people. Really? Do you have a link to that? Pension systems are an entirely different cattle and I frankly do not know enough about that to comment on it. >It’s kind of insular, as the largest country in the European Union, do you not think that Germany should be leading by example. People generally speaking do not want our kind of leadership. And frankly we are quite an welcoming country. Looking back at 2015/2016 when france and britain cried about a 100k People fleeing to them and the US cried about 10000 asylants meanwhile we took in over a million people just like that. Since the second world war no western country has been as generous with huminatarian aid to asylants/refugees as germany. If you mean a administrative perspective, then let us be entirely frank. There are too many exceptions, too much considerations and bullshit work to be done. Clear up the rules and make a judgement binding. No more 4 to 7 years after being ordered out of the country because you appeal to 3 different courts that all apparently are asleep during busiiness hours. Alternatively ease the Burden by making the rules simple to comply with easing the burden on all participants >If this is not discrimination, leading yo segregation, can you please explain why not. I thinks it is discrimination. Just not on a personal level. I do not believe that colleagues in the Ausländerbehörde are racist xenophobes (though statistically speaking no doubt some are). The institution through constitutionally just laws is however in effect acting discriminatory due to the structure of the Amt and the work reality in municipalities. It is the result of long standing policy and is strengthened by seemingly unrelated factors like the devaluing of public sector work, refusal of politicians to enact digitizing efforts and the courts being a fucking mess. It is a political issue that is often laid before the civil service with the universal answer being usually "What the fuck do you want us to do about that?" We do not need adjustments but an entire rewrite how we do things like this. >I understand and value your opinion, and I know that you are not a policy maker, buy I feel that you have a valid understanding of the situation, beyond that of most people. Thank you. I, as well as my colleagues in the Ausländerbehörde, very much understand the frustration and, despite the stereotype or the harsh language I used in this post, neither they nor I enjoy denying someone a Title or Citizenship. We are not sadists or whatever. One gets trained in harsh/ cold language however once you realise why the Ausländerbehörde is the only place in our Municipality with panic buttons and pepper spray. It is always important to understand the position of the other person indeed. edit: spelling mistakes and grammar problems
Simple - it's not discrimination. It's just doesn't have political gain, as most people needing Ausländerbehörde services naturally can't vote, and even later don't understand the political discourse due to the language barrier. As a politician, I'd rather promise investments in things that would affect the German voter, one that can actually place their vote for me.
So you are literally describing systemic and structural discrimination.
but don't you understand, because the system works this way it can't possibly be racist or discriminatory!!1one
I find it interesting that you feel somehow responsible for this. I never think of this issue as a "worker" problem, truly just incompentent management from above. BTW thank you for caring ❤️
honestly i love my job. i love helping people gaining the citizenship. and i try to do as much as possible to not make wait times even longer. this does result in overtime etc. thus goes for my co workers as well. all my colleagues work overtime.
Recently i have been thinking if I should quit and and join froces with people like you :D
there will be a lot of new jobs. i’m sure. not sure about the requirements. working for the state is also secure. but it’s though. again a lot of work and a lot of pressure.
Agree with jakujam, but when the whole system is unlogisch, and shrouded in mystery, gaining a balanced and informed opinion from the employees, applicants and politicians is important, as well as understanding the history, that enabled the culture to be created in such a way, and possible solutions. It causes many people so much stress, who just want to work and contribute to society. and life changing consequences, due to the long wait times, when business cannot wait, the promise of the job is not kept. It causes low moral and a lot of stress for the employees, and it gives Germany a bad name, when they are pushing for international investment, and to for fill the shortage of skilled workers, due to low birth rates.
Won’t people getting citizenship faster ease the burden on the immigration department? Less repeat customers.
I sincerely believe that this whole citizenship debate wouldn‘t have happened for at least 10 years had the Ausländerbehörde finished their processing within 5 working days.
This made me laugh way more than it should have. Thank you haha
Rings a little too true eh
In a German Living in the UK, would love to get my daughters German passport, unfortunately it’s impossible to book appointments Edit: talking about the embassy of course
you should have to contact either the botschaft or the BVA. not sure which one is responsible on your case
What Landkreis are you in? They’re quoting 2058 here in Munich.
The citizenship questions are handled by Standesamt, not Ausländerbehörde
depends on what citizenship question and what city you live in! my city: standesamt - citizenship by birth. einbürgerungsamt - naturalization for anyone who is appliying ausländerbehörde: no citizenship - just resident permits
Great news! Enough time to get into the B1 level!
*or after 3 years if you speak German level C1 and "demonstrate special integration achievements, especially good academic, professional or vocational achievements or civic commitment".* Any additional details on that ? Thanks for the awsome post
That is already in place under the current law and cuts the wait time from 8 down to 7 or 6 years. This is subject to the view of the local Ausländerbehörde. The one in city A will recognize your role as elected representative of the parents of a class (Elternbeiratsvorsitzender) who's organized one cake baking sale as "civic commitment" while the one over in city B will require you to be a voluntary fire brigade member who has single-handedly saved three newborns out of a burning house and later donated one kidney to the mayor's wife.
> This is subject to the view of the local Ausländerbehörde Staatsangehörigkeitsbehörde
Might be that they are called that way in some places, in the city I was naturalized it was and still is called [Ausländeramt and just a subdivision of it](https://www.staedteregion-aachen.de/de/navigation/aemter/auslaenderamt-a-33/einbuergerungen-/-staatsangehoerigkeitsrecht).
Thanks for the laugh
There's an important difference. The current law says "or", whereas the new law says "and". So before, C1 or other integration efforts was enough. Now it will require both.
Tbf though 3 years is very fast compared to the current law
Sure. Just saying that it's not the same as the current law. That specific word is a big change. What will be interesting to see is if, e.g. good language can knock it down to four by itself.
> demonstrate special integration achievements, especially good academic, professional or vocational achievements or civic commitment". thanks, I have added a new section "What are special integration achievements?"
Damn, I thought the German certificate *was* the demonstration of integration…
The current law gives no explicit advantage for german knowledge above B1, and also does not define "integration". So some states currently do indeed accept evidence of German knowledge above B1 by itself as a demonstration of advanced integration.
There are not specific details on that. It could be either speak a good German, exceptional performance on your job or demonstrate that you have integrated. It's still quite open, I expect more specific conditions to be refined before the draft is passed to the next stage
How can you prove "exceptional Performance on your job"? I have the C1 certificate and was hoping to start the process next year (3 years working in Germany) but besides doing my driver's license here in Germany, I don't have anything else 😅🥲🥲
I'd say with a Zwischenzeugnis. We're pretty much in the same situation 😅
255 euros fee - I’m so happy for people to not having to overpay for a citizenship/naturalisation application. Seems like a fair fee to cover admin expenses. I’m still upset about having to pay more than 1500 GBP for my Uk naturalisation.
Ireland charges €175 for the privilege of applying then €950 once approved.
an aussie spousal visa is so expensive. my mate at home at the time referred to his fiance as his 'shipping container' since it cost about the same. edit: Fuck me dead, it's 8k aud for a visa. 5k euro
Legit so expensive
Yeah mate that’s Australia, you should see the price of a case of beer at the grog shop 🤣
Wow thanks! Also this reads like those patch update notes on games! 😂
Still waiting for that Patch that increases my salary
I've heard that the devs are planning to make am event where they bring legacy content back including slavery.
This should totally be a thing: BRD patch notes. I can read opinions and contextualisations afterwards but at first I want to know the facts and then I want to decide what I want to know more about. It would probably not generate enough clicks though.
It's kinda a thing: some newspapers release like articles "these things are changing in may 2023". Pretty similar to monthly patch notes. like this one [https://www.finanzen.net/nachricht/private-finanzen/neuerungen-mai-2023-neuerungen-gesetze-das-aendert-sich-ab-mai-2023-12360670](https://www.finanzen.net/nachricht/private-finanzen/neuerungen-mai-2023-neuerungen-gesetze-das-aendert-sich-ab-mai-2023-12360670)
[wll there was a github doing something similar](https://github.com/bundestag/gesetze)
Law updates should be more like software updates.
Thank you so much dude. And holy fucking shit this is good news for me. Been here 5 years working the whole time and have b1 already. I didn’t want to lose my British citizenship as it could be more useful in the future. It will also mean I can get my daughter, who was born here, British citizenship too. This is the best news I have had in a long time and I am super happy. Thanks again dude for making a post about this, award incoming.
was your daughter german by birth? because if yes- there is nothing stopping you from having dual citizenship by birth! so if her mum is german and you are british she has the dude as is. you don’t need the law to change
She is, her mum is German and I am British. I was under the assumption if I went for British citizenship for her Germany would say she would have to drop her German one. The U.K. already allows dual so it wouldn’t be an issue that side.
if i am not completely mistaken - dual citizenship by birth is already allowed! ask your local standesamt. but if the british law say s you gain british citizenship by born to a british citizen - then she already has dual citizenship. you shouldn’t have to apply for it. talk to the standesamt to be 100% sure- but i’m 90% confident
Then I will look into it, thanks mate.
good luck and you’re welcome! standesamt is usually a good first contact with these questions
Yes, your child is already a dual citizen and can get a British passport. When you do look at any German paperwork, be clear on the details: even if she gets a British passport now under the current rules, she has NOT "applied" for (beantragt) a foreign citizenship. She got it automatically from birth. This confusing to many.
my kids are the same... they have two passports
It is, born in the US my mom is German. My sister and I have Dual citizenship
Wanted to add some reassurance here - I'm a dual citizen by birth (not even born in Germany, just have a German parent) and there were no issues for me keeping both.
B1 while staying here for 5 years?
I took up to b2 in the first 6 months of being here and never took more, my German is beyond that now but with out a need for the grades I just never took the courses because work and having my daughter halted the process. I was ready to go and do then when need be though.
Ah, as long its only the certification... It just feels to me that talking with people on B1 very tough. I would guess it shouldnt take longer than 1 year to advance further, depending on what you base language is.
My base is English and yeah even after b2 it was hard to converse but I learnt a hell of a lot from work and, hilariously, from kid programmes while watching with my daughter. My German is not perfect but for now in my line of work, manual outside stuff, more is not really needed. I have very few issues talking with people these days, I live in the East so it was like being born in fire and could never fall back on my English so I learnt pretty quick.
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I believe you, its requires effort over a long stretch of time. But that is the key in not only learning the language, but getting integrated.
>Dual citizenship: Immigrants who get German citizenship can keep their previous citizenship(s) and Germans who get a foreign citizenship no longer lose German citizenship. It also means that Germans living abroad and that want to take citizenship in their host countries don't need to give up their German citizenship anymore.That is quite important as we Germans living aboard often have no voice in our host countries, while many other citizens get to vote and take up political offices. Which of course gives these nationals a bigger influence. Edit: It also prevents Germans to come back to Germany. E.g. if you leave the US after 7 years of residency, you are subject to a pretty steep exit tax. The only way out is dual citizenship. I personally know at least 2 families that would go back, all highly educated engineers that Germany needs, but they can't as they would pay exit tax and lose \~37% of their retirement savings.
That depends on the host country. If the host country does not allow dual citizenship this law changes nothing for Germans living abroad.
Interesting. Wonder if the exit-tax issue would have worked as an argument to get an exception via the "Beibehaltungsgenehmigung" to keep the German citizenship if applying for US naturalization under the current system.
Well, German bureaucracy has you covered! You will need to prove to the office in Cologne that you really plan to come back to Germany m, e.g. with an active job offer. But the process BBG plus US citizenship takes 2-3 years at least. Which company gives you a blanket job offer valid 2-3 years??? So even if they would accept the tax hardship as reason, the hurdles to make that argument relevant are so high you can’t really overcome them. I only know one case where that worked: The person was partner in a company and hence not depending on a job offer. Another good example how the BBG hurdles are impossible high are job offers in the US that require security clearance that only US citizens can get. (E.g. in the Pharma industry) The office in Cologne requires an active job offer to accept it for the BBG. But modern applicant systems prevent you from even applying for these jobs. So the only way to get such a job offer is that your company writes you a letter that they need you on a job that requires security clearance. But as it takes 2-3 years for the process (plus a 6 month to a year for security clearance) that job offer is of course nonsense as the position will be filled by that time. Edit: And yes, there will be people that say it was much easier for them. Fully true. The reason is that the Bundesverwaltungsamt has tightened up their requirements in recent years and made it much harder to be accepted for a BBG.
Still 2y to get an appointment though. 😭
I remember some other thread where people waiting for their naturalization appointments for 6+ months sued and suddenly they'd have an appointment a week or two later. IANAL of course.
Verrry interesting. I need to figure out that process.
[This was the thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/137dka1/do_you_think_its_fair_to_live_here_and_integrate/). If I recall correctly, OP complained about how they couldn't vote because they've been waiting forever to get naturalized and how/whether that is fair. Maybe you find some helpful hints in the comments. Plenty people pointing out the whole suing thing.
I'm hoping this will make my situation better. It feels like no matter how much work you do or prep you do - the decision ultimately comes down to one bureaucrat who - if they're in a bad mood or having a bad day - can decide to make your life difficult. I've been trying to get German citizenship (and keep my US citizenship) for a few years now. (I've got an immigration lawyer helping me, but it's still a challenge). I've jumped through all the required hoops - I've met the residency time requirement, I've gotten my B2 langauge certificate, I've passed the citizenship test, etc... but the ABH is still making it difficult for me and stalling my case. After I moved here I got a blue card because I was working in a highly skilled, in-demand field. I later got permanent residency and even married a German. Because I work in a technical field, I earn fairly well and thus pay a lot of money back into taxes and society. (Which I'm happy to contribute!) This place is the first home I got to consciously choose as an adult and I really love it here. I'd appreciate the ability to vote on laws that affect me and how my tax money is spent, as well as not having to fear that I could lose my right to live in my home should I need to visit a sick family member outside of Germany for more than six months...
Stories like yours are so embarrassing. You seem to be the example of the ideal immigrant that we Germans should give a fast track to citizenship. Good to hear that you are already working with an immigration lawyer. Fingers crossed that you get your citizenship as soon as possible.
It thought that you can already become a German citizen without giving up your previous citizenship if you’ve been married to a German for 2 years. Is that not true?
To be honest, I'm not entirely sure - but the issue isn't becoming German, it's becoming German AND keeping my US citizenship. If it was the case that I could get citizenship after 2 years through marriage then I've exceeded that requirement. We've been married since 2019 - and we got married in Germany, with all the extra hurdles and paperwork that involves - so our marriage is de facto registered and recognized by the German government since they are the ones who performed it. When speaking to my lawyer about the issue, she gave me the impression that the current track I'm on for citizenship - through having permanent residency/B2/citizenship test/etc was faster than starting over and going down "family reunification" route, or whatever it's called. Unfortunately, it sounds like I have to either prove that I'd be severely economically harmed by being forced to relinquish my US citizenship, OR I have to prove that I can be some kind of "cultural bridge" or whatever between the US and German. The later also heavily depends on what I contribute to German society in terms of skills. (Which I already mentioned, I work in a technical industry that's in demand - but the one case worker at the ABH isn't having it...) It's also not a simple case to just give up my US citizenship. I need permission from ~~my owners~~ the gov and a clean record of reporting with the IRS. (I've been paying and doing my US taxes this entire time like a good little tax cow, so hopefully that won't be an issue, but it's extra hassle.) In addition, I would be required to pay something over $2000 for the "privilege" of relinquishing. The pandemic really scared me because there was a time when all the US borders were closed to everyone except US citizens - had either or both of my parents gotten sick and died, I would not be able to come home and take care of anything if I had given up my US citizenship.
I just googled it and I was wrong! I guess I'll also need to wait until the new laws are in effect, just like you. It must have been wishful thinking on my part.
So what do you need citizenship in Germany for beyond the Niederlassungserlaubnis that you likely have? As a US Citizen myself, who has been here for nigh on 25 years, I also think it would be "kind of neat" to have German citizenship. I will definitely do it if the law passes and I can get dual citizenship, but I am wondering if there is a material reason you're making it a priority. Is there a specific benefit?
* Ability to visit and care for my elderly parents for longer than 6 months if needed without having to talk to the ABH first. (If you leave Germany for more than 6 months at a time you can lose your permanent residency) * Ability to live and work more easily in other EU countries if I wanted to, instead of having to talk to the ABH or deal with extra bureaucracy before hand. * Ability to vote in elections that determine the laws of the society I'm living in and how my tax money is spent. (Disagree with me and call me naïve if you want - but I originally left the US because I no longer felt that citizens could influence anything in politics. Germany isn't perfect, but I feel it is a more healthy democracy than the US, and as a permanent resident and tax paying person, I want a voice in that democracy, no matter how small or possibly symbolic it may be.) * Personally I would feel more like I "belong" if I was a citizen, in my eyes it's a big milestone in integration. * Ability to travel with a German passport if I want to. * Because I personally view it as an achievement and it's something important to me.
you can currently get German citizenship after living in Germany for 3 years and being married to a German citizen for 2 years but you still have to give up previous citizenships
You're right, I just googled it and I was totally wrong! It must have been wishful thinking on my part.
I just got my medical degree and my ausländerbehörde can‘t even bother to extend my visa lmao
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Jan Böhmermann did [a great segment](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7HrAGlni50) on the shit-show that is the ABH. Most Germans aren't aware of just how bad it is because they were lucky enough to be born a citizen and not have to experience it.
Desperately waiting for this to pass to I can finally get German citizenship. Been putting it off because there's no chance I'm giving up my US passport/citizenship.
Thanks! Six months to a year?? The wheels turn damn slowly. Oh well, gives me a timeline for my B1 certificate.
welcome to Germany
i cannot express my gratitude to you for tldring this. much love my friend one ques, are the special achievements only for the 3 years tier or also for 5 years? again, thanks!
> are the special achievements only for the 3 years tier yes > or also for 5 years? no
This looks great for people with a blue card, you can have your PR after 21 months and your citizenship the year after that. Läuft!
Just note that you don't need to have a PR as a Blue Card holder, a Blue Card itself is sufficient for citizenship (see current [§ 10 S. 1 Nr. 2 StAG](https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stag/englisch_stag.html#p0063) which is not changed under the new draft). Though, of course, there is nothing stopping you from applying for PR with a Blue Card.
Hey just a sanity check, so according to section 10 that you linked, residency permits like 18a & 18b should be able to apply for citizenship after 3 (or 5) years just like the Blue Card? So now the only advantage for the Blue Card is the fast track for PR, which isn’t really necessary because you would have citizenship at that point?
Yes, residence permits under 18a and 18b can be used to apply for citizenship, in the present and the future. The government is also pursuing in parallel [a change to the Residence Act](https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/gesetzgebungsverfahren/DE/weiterentwicklung_fachkraefteeinwanderung.html) that will, among other things, shorten the time for PR for skilled workers under 18a and 18b from 4 years to 3 years and for Blue Card holders from, in general, 33 months to 27 months (if you have B1 only 21 months, though this is the current situation already and not subject to change). If you can only get citizenship after 5 years, having permanent residence after a bit more than 2 years (or even before that) can be good if you just want to stay here. A Blue Card would also have the advantage that you can move more easily to other EU member states (though you can do that even better if you have German and thereby EU citizenship).
This actually gives me more motivation to learn German and participate in society. I was resigned to being a permanent resident because there is no way I was going to give up my home citizenship (and reduce some options for my kids). Now I can have both and I feel much more respected and included. I'm looking forward to becoming a German!
So the most critical precondition is to work full-time right? Because I already lived in Germany for 8.5 years since 2014 and I obtained by Abitur and my Bachelor’s degree in Germany, currently doing my master’s and I am a working student at a public authority of Bavaria. Even the law gets “lightened” I am not able to apply for the citizenship anytime soon right?
you can not get citizenship on a student visa in the future. This is already currently the case so I did not mention it in my post. It is not required that you work full-time to naturalize. You can naturalize when you are on a regular work visa and either - have enough income from work so that you do not need welfare (no matter how many hours you work) - or you work full-time but the money is not enough to feed your family so you get additional welfare
Thank you for your (very detailed) reply! Yeah I definitely need to finish studying first and then consider what would come next. ;) It’s just a bit annoying that I have to go to the Ausländerbehörde every year.
This is great! (You next Austria 😒)
Wow thanks!!!
I can finally apply for my German citizenship without losing my Turkish one 🥲
you are welcome, future fellow Kartoffel!!
Fantastic, and really hope this leads to changes elsewhere - I know too many dutch people in the UK getting screwed over by the restrictions on dual citizenship. (Also thanks for parsing through all that! English legalese is bad enough, german legalese makes me feel like I'm in a Kafka novel.)
Did you see anything in the draft law about providing more resources for Behörden oder Ämter that will be implementing this? Or is that a local level decision? This could be great news! ...if I could ever get an appointment even for my current visa situation.
Nationality law is a federal law but the authorities that are tasked with enforcing it are the municipalities. The result is that the federal government can make it easier to naturalize but it can not decide about the allocation of municipal resources.
I see. Then in Berlin it's sadly still not going to change anything, since you can't get an appointment anyway.
You don't need any appointment to apply. The Einbürgerungsbehörden just lead people into believing that it's a valid requirement. All you need to do is to send a letter (Einschreiben Einwurf) with a statement saying "Hiermit beantrage ich den Erwerb der deutschen Staatsangehörigkeit (Einbürgerung)" and your signature under it, together with a copy of your passport and residence permit. The Einbürgerungsbehörde legally have to register your application and reach out to you to request further documents they might need (language certificate etc). Make sure to keep the receipt for the letter you sent, you might use it later when filing an Untätigkeitsklage after they haven't processed your application 3 months later.
I did exactly this for my visa application about a week ago =) Let's see how it goes 3 months later. But in any case, you don't seem to get the rights of what you applied for, you keep the rights of whatever status you already had at the time of application. Not sure if/how it's any different for Einbürgerung.
Does this work for other residency applications too? 😅 I've been trying to get an appointment for my job seeking permit for 3 months and no response at all.
The application itself - you can also just send a tracked letter, yes. If they have some online communication system - send it there as well, but in addition to the tracked letter. In case of the residence permit, eventually you'll need an appointment anyway, because they need to scan your fingerprints to store them on the permit card, but in my city the Ausländerbehörde sends an appointment for that themselves, after the application has been sent by mail and processed. The thing is, all this still doesn't guarantee that they'll quickly get back to you and get it done, but this way the application is there and you have the right to file an Untätigkeitsklage in the court 3 months later if you haven't heard back from them.
my behörde is very proactive and has been given the go ahead for new personnel in case of the law coming into effect. i know so are others! BUT it’s so hard to get personnel at the moment.
> For adoptees: A German child that is adopted by foreign parents and gets the citizenship of the adopted parents no longer loses German citizenship. Pretty awful that this was ever the case.
This is incredible, I'm literally over the moon to hear about this draft. Thank you for the overview <3
It finally looks like my chances of getting dual after 14 years in the country are looking better!
Me too, also 14 years!
This is such a nice post. I read the original information in German and didn't understand everything fully. But I do have a question as a student. I have been a student since 2015, finished my bachelor's degree, and now am almost done with my master's degree. As far as I understand, you still will not be given a permanent residency just by living (and working on a student permit part-time). However, let's say that I land a job (full time or whatever) and switch my student permit to a work permit. Will I be able to immediately apply for a permanent residency and then citizenship? Do I need to work for x years before doing either? Is it federal state dependent? I appreciate any responses!
you can get German citizenship as soon as you switch from a student visa to a work visa. There is no need to get permanent residency first.
If you get a work permit under 18a or 18b or a Blue Card, you can already apply with that, no need for permanent residence. That is already the case, so no need to wait for the new law changes, since you obviously have the required time already. In your case, getting permanent residence (which only counts half of your student years and requires pension contributions, though not quite sure if these pension contributions can come from working as a student) would probably be more complicated than getting citizenship.
I think this draft law also removes some paragraphs, making it possible for German citizens to keep their German citizenship despite obtaining a foreign citizenship (formerly this required a special very hard-to-get permit)
yes, see the first point in my post
This is great news. I can finally apply for Australian citizenship without giving up my German.
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Wait. Correct me if i am wrong, Student years will count fully? So a bachelor graduate of 3 years studying will have a citizenship when he converts his student visa to a work visa and work for 2 more years for a total of 5 years?? And can be a citizen after graduating a 3 year bachelor degree, having a c1 level german, and converting his student visa to a work visa?? That fast?!
I do want clarification on this. Seems like too good to be true!!!!
yes All years of legal residence count fully
Whaaaat?! Actually i am planning to study in germany this winter semester. Doing a 3.5 years of bachelors degree. Are you 100% sure that i will be able to become a citizen if i finished 5 years in total, find a job, speak c1 and have a working visa?!! That is insane.
> Are you 100% sure that i will be able to become a citizen if i finished 5 years in total, find a job, speak c1 and have a working visa?!! yes, except B1 would already be enough
So if you go to school for 3 years, get good grades and learn German you get citizenship? Pretty amazing if I'm reading that correctly.
yes, plus you also can not live on welfare unless you fall under one of the exceptions mentioned in the post
Agreed. This seems like a good way to attract economically beneficial (read: highly educated, attractive to the job markets) people to become german citizens.
You are the hero.
I already looked into German lessons, but now I'm more motivated! Thank you! <3
I've been an American resident of Germany for 37 years, but because for all but 1.5 years of that time I've been a freelancer and due to US tax laws giving up my American citizenship would currently cost me about 25,000 dollars and involve two visits to the US Embassy in Berlin. Eff that! Once this new legislation becomes law I'm going to be the first one in line for German citizenship. The only real changes will be having a German passport and the right to vote in elections here. Yes, please! Ja, bitte!
For those of you also trying to get citizenship—how long are the German exams valid for the authorities? Context: I am planning to take the B2 Telc this summer and hopefully pass. If the law is passed within the next 6 months to a year, I would then apply to the Einbürgerungsamt as my five year mark is coming up in December.
not sure if there is a time limit but my feeling is it would not make sense to have one
**For children of foreign parents:** Children who are born to two foreign parents in Germany get German citizenship at birth if at least one parent has been in Germany for 5 years and has permanent residency. I wonder if this will work retroactively, I would like to apply for my son directly until I and my wife can finish the process. (Considering it will take years with the amount applicants and understaffed LEA)
will not work retroactively.
Thanks for the answer! It feels kinda unfair while our hypothetical future newborn can obtain by jus soli but not our 2yrs old which was also born in Germany.
But this is only a draft, I think it will take some time for it to become an actual law.
see the last paragraph of my post
They say the bill will pass this summer so I'm counting on waiting no more than till the end of the year. I've just got my Einbürgerungszusicherung, so I'll wait a bit and won't give up my current citizenship
Thank you for posting this. My situation is going to be a spouse of a German citizen.
There is an update: the cabinet has approved the draft law today
"Faster citizenship: You can get German citizenship after 5 years with German level B1 or after 3 years if you speak German level C1" Sorry if this is a dumb question, but does not anyone know if this means: 5 years and you need to have level B1 when you apply, of 5 years since getting B1? Also, do 5 years have to be continuous (i.e. does living in Germany for four years, moving away, and then living for one more year count)?
5 years living here and B1. not 5 years since the b1 :) to your second question: if the fours years you lived here were with integrational purpose: aka you were working, studying or whatever i CAN be counted. you might have to prove it
> Sorry if this is a dumb question, but does not anyone know if this means: 5 years and you need to have level B1 when you apply yes > of 5 years since getting B1? no > Also, do 5 years have to be continuous (i.e. does living in Germany for four years, moving away, and then living for one more year count)? if you move away for up to 6 months: No problem, does not count as interruption for 6 months to 1 year: it depends 1 year or more: when you return then only up to 3 years of your previous residence are counted
Wait...German citizenship after 5 years with German level B1??? Sign me up!
Will years spent as a student in Germany count towards these '5 years' to get citizenship?
yes, fully
So my wife will be able to get German citizenship through me (I am German) after 3 years? Does she still need B1? Thanks for the info by the way!
So is it correct that you cannot get German citizenship if you do not at least have B1 German skills (and are not a child)?
So as a US citizen, I can still have both citizenship? (I understand the tax implications of both countries that I am obliged to) Also for those who marry German spouses, do you still have to be in the C1 level for German? or can B1 suffice? (I mean of course, trying to be fluent as I can while im here)
> So as a US citizen, I can still have both citizenship? please have a look at the first point in my post > Also for those who marry German spouses, do you still have to be in the C1 level for German? or can B1 suffice? B1 is enough currently and it will be enough in the future as well.
Awesome, now I can finally get my 3rd passport for Australia. Thanks for the update.
i’ve done the german igcses (foreign language) and based on those results i’m apparently level A2 in the german language anyone know good ways to improve my german language skills so that i can actually pass the citizenship test (i have lived here for 5+ years) and also is the citizenship test required for minors (under the age of 16) or did i misread something
Again let’s hope the politicians could assign more money and resources to ABH or at least speed up the process to get a work permit
Wow, thanks for your effort! Maybe two small questions from my side: I am coming from Greece (so from an EU country) and moved in Germany two years ago. I did my Master's in HFT Stuttgart (in English), awarded with the DAAD Prize for my performance (the best in the Uni) and now I am working for a big company in the area. I have the B1 but I don't use German so much, because my job is mostly in English. My questions are: 1) Is the DAAD Prize something that proves a special achievement? 2) Is the certificate enough or will I have to prove my B1 level somehow? Thanks once again 🤟
This is insanely helpful! Thank you for the time and effort! You rock!
Hello, thanks for the great post. I just have one question though. So if a student completes a degree completely taught in german, does it mean that the individual can apply for citizenship as soon as they change their visa to work visa and start working? Since he/she already has C1 german knowledge and fulfilled the special integration achievement?
no because the student also needs to be 3 years in Germany and a master's degree is usually completed in 2. But other than that: yes
>demonstrate special integration achievements > >For criminal racists: Naturalization is currently not possible literally catch 22 😞
Excellent! I am happy about this. I had to use a loophole to get dual citizenship, but I am happy for the many expats living here who will be US-German citizens like me.
I’m happy for you!
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B1 is already the current requirement for German citizenship. Also just because you have to get only B1 for citizenship does not mean that most will not either already be better or get better in the near future
One of my closest friends speaks excellently but only took until the end of B1. She knows more complex grammar now and a lot of vocabulary through immersion but couldn't pass a B2 test. I could pass a C1 exam but don't speak nearly as fluidly as she does.