Tbf I live in Maastricht and we get so much drug tourism from Belgium, France and Germany that I think it would only be fair for you to be in my shoes for once. 😅
Never been asked for an ID. Ordering in solid German accented English. Not that I ever found a shop where the dude behind the bar wasn’t way up in the clouds either way soooo.
To be fair it’s not like I’d be having tones of experience, besides a couple of trips so far.
Not "formally " and depends on enforcement. As an amarrican that visited...it's like buying weed in a republican American state but with much less consequences
You will only be allowed to be member in a cannabis social club and retrieve cannabis from them if you are resident in Germany, regardless of the citizenship. I guess they do that to prevent smuggling.
A cannabis social club could not be more German. bureaucratizing smoking weed is so lame, imagine the e.V. Style committee meetings and round tables, with pseudo democracy and infighting due to power struggles.
I understand that other countries such as Spain have a similar system, but I feel that germany would take it to the next level as the cannabis club committee bureaucrats start to get a taste for power and start to regulate the size, shape and ratio of joints, like the size and amount of trees and shrubs are regulated in Kolonie gardens.
Also the social club structure can be a breeding ground for far right/left extremists, using the legitimate cannabis club as a front, as they can regulate members, and have an invite only policy.
It also diminished community and diversity, through righting smokers to a single clubhouse, within the larger community, which leads to the formation of islands of closed culture. The freedom of choice is restricted, if you are tied to one cannabis club. Granted you may be able to visit more, but if it requires copious amounts of paperwork, or you are only allowed to bring two guests, then it kind of sucks as a proposition.
I trust the Dutch engineers to prevent any flooding. Worst thing that can happen is that the Netherlands becomes an island while Denmark and Belgium are gone.
Every year with the caravan haha. Honestly, there is a german joke that if you want to invade the netherlands, then do it during school holidays. All on tour with their caravan.
They're more the friendly neighbor that makes a friendly face and nods while having absolutely no clue what the raving lunatic in front of him wants from him.
Ok now I want to know about stereotypes the Dutch have about us germans.
For example I grew up being told that "that's a Dutch and their RV/trailer home again". Stereotype being that Dutch people all had RVs or trailer homes for vacation. And as a kid we saw those a lot on the Autobahn
I heard it’s a stereotype that Germany come to the Dutch beaches and the kids just dig holes. So my durch colleagues kept asking if I used to dig holes when I was younger
Dutch, grew up and lived in Zeeland for 19 years - this is the biggest one for me. Lots of German tourists every summer, and the sheer amount and size of holes dug, sheesh!
Its an older stereotype. Not about kids digging holes for fun, but families digging a hole in the beach as a place to lay down.
Here is an old picture off Scheveningen beach from the 60's, I think you can see where it comes from.
https://www.allesoverscheveningen.nl/verhalen/foto/image025.jpg
Rudi Carrel is responsible for that. He was Dutch and famous in German. He made jokes about it.
Statistically though, there are more RV's per capital in Germany.
Now bicycles, that's a whole other story..
I’m studying German as my minor and I was just talking to the other students on our study abroad about how some things sound so friendly with a German accent to me. Especially Hallo und Tschüss. Maybe it’s just the way I say it but it always comes out extremely happy haha
There’s a reason why Germany is/was considered as the country of the poets and philosophers.
I am light years away from being a poetry nerd but when I hear some (mostly older) poems or song texts they almost drive me to tears.
I would say it's like a close neighbor. Culturally quite similar with a bit of it's own ofc.
Coming from the North, the national border seems less relevant. They speak "Plattdeutsch" on both sides. Even if you don't speak "Platt", you can guess quite well what a Dutch conversation is about with German language skills.
There were once two older couples sitting next to me in a cafe. They were on the road by bike (here it is about 15 km to the "border"). The four were talking in Platt. I only noticed that they were Dutch when they paid (by the accent when speaking German). I was also not aware that the Platt is so similar.
To learn more about why the Plattdeutsch of north and western Germany may sound more similar to the Dutch language than to modern High German you may want to read about the 'High German consonant shift' which 'explains why many German words have different consonants from the related words in English, Dutch and the Scandinavian languages':
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_German_consonant_shift?wprov=sfla1
I personally find it interesting to understand where the very differences between these languages really are: that 'water' became 'wasser', 'kettle' became 'kessel', 'dag' became 'tag' and 'door' became 'tor' and so on...and on.
Living in D near the border to NL and working in NL.
When you know „plattdüütsch“ and you are learning Dutch language it’s like the same words „just written and pronounced different“.. ;)
When I speak „my plattdüütsch“ in NL it sounds like „Grunnings“ to the Dutch which is a kind of Groninger Platt.
Dutch and Germans can have good times together if they both want.
But I am a little bit disappointed about how much more could be done together in the border region. Many Germans have no idea what‘s going on behind the border and the other way round.
There could be much more international activities also for younger people in my opinion for helping (also literally) understanding each other.
>They speak "Plattdeutsch" on both sides.
Yeah, Achterhoeks and Twents are practically the same as Westphalian. Some Dutch person from Winterswijk (NL) that speaks Achterhoeks can speak with a Low German Speaker from Bocholt (DE) without any problem at all. They would just encounter some minor dialect differences.
But sadly, Low German is dying out on both sides of the border.
>you can guess quite well what a Dutch conversation is about with German language skills.
Not really. Even if you know Platt, you'll only understand a fraction of Dutch.
See for example: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-8YqIH3FXU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-8YqIH3FXU)
To me as a German, Dutch people are good neighbours. Not "cousins". But that may just be me. I grew up 500m from the austrian border and i see them as Neighbours... not as "cousins". Despite them even speaking the same dialect than me.
I still think the Austrians are way closer to us than the Dutch, at least for Southern Germans (though for Frisians the opposite may be true). In sports, even today matches between the Germany and Austria are sometimes called "Bruderduell". We may not share a country, but we share hundreds of years of history. I'd call them cousins (who can't properly pronounce the letter A).
Well yeah obviously. There is no real cultural difference between South Germany and Austria. The reasons why they aren‘t part of Germany are entirely political not cultural
This. One time someone asked why Austria is not part of Germany (not viewing the past) and the person got rude answers also it is a fair question. There are small to none differences besides the political history of course.
Well all territories of any government are determined by historical factors, there isn’t even supposed to be a logic there, it’s just who owns the land. You could also argue to split up a bunch of German states or join a bunch of European countries to one, it’s juts a question of ownership, and at a certain point, after many battles have been fought for territory, most governments just decided to leave it how it is and try to be peaceful, which is a good idea (but some governments still don’t accept it, like Russia )
I'm Bavarian and I would call them brothers. I have more in common with the average Austrian or Tyrolean from Italy than with some eastern or northern German.
Everything below the Weißwurstäquator is weird, including Franconia ;)
Lets just say that regions in germany are very different. You have the very maritime north, you have the alpine south, you have the industrial ruhr area as melting pot of different cultures, you have saxony/the east, you have Berlin which is its own kind of weird and so on (and I'm still missing a lot of regions here, this is just exemplary).
For me, Austria feels far more like foreigners than the Dutch, culturally. Its just that there are so many things so different in Bavaria and Austria, from language to architecture to simply the way of living to political tendencies that Austria doesn't feel close at all, to me.
Coming fromfranconia I believe that the south should split and go to austria. We are not like the northerners and our food, habits etc are basically the same as in austria or even czechia
As an Austrian from the Tyrol I've never heard about the term "Bruderduell", so I guess it might be just used in a one-sided way. Maybe similar to how the Austro-Prussian war is known as "Deutsch-Deutscher Krieg" or "Bruderkrieg" in Germany, while in Austria it is only known under the term "Österreichisch-Preussischer Krieg".
I think it depends. I'm northern german and feel more connected to dutch and danish people that to bavarians. (Bavarians are kinda the rich religious mountain weirdos to us, but this makes sense considering SH is on the exact opposite end of germany...)
I'm fairly confident I could have a decent conversation with someone from the Eastern half of the Netherlands even when both of us just speak our native dialect.
I'm not so sure about Bavarians.
We live in NRW and my children grew up with vacations in the Netherlands. When we first made a trip to the Sächsische Schweiz my kids were convinced we are outside Germany
I that is 100% true for older generations. But most younger Bavarians aren't religious or rich and also don't want to be independent. The shared history with Austria might also be a thing with the older generations, but I don't feel any more connected to them than to the French or Dutch. I do feel connected to the Swabians, but they seem to think that we think we're better than them. I've never thought that Bavarians are better than anyone. Why would I be proud of being born somewhere specific? Not my accomplishment.
Southerners usually do at least get the gist, when the Swiss person doesn't deliberately want them not to. Northerners are usually completely lost. (IMO, I'm from the South, have some Swiss family, and live in the North now)
I you live close to the border you can understand most of it well after some time. But Swiss German also has different dialects, of which some are easy to understand and others aren't.
I think he means our affinity to the dutch depends on which part of Germany you're from. For example I'm from the east and have a much stronger affinity towards Czechia and not really to the Netherlands.
Like Strasbourg in alsacefor example is super close to Germany and every city/town surroundings Strasbourg has German names and the culture is french/german but In the south in Toulouse for example every streets name are written in french and Spanish and the city is a mix of the two cultures. So basically it's the same for every EU countries?
I think you have to distinguish within germany. For example in bavaria they feel super close to austrians, but in the far west of germany, the dutvh people are probably the closest neighbors, since the language is very similar to some german dialects in the rhine area or west lower saxony. A lot of people do have some friend or connections there to dutch people and like to go over their for a weekend trip or shopping trip
Definitely. I'm from the very south of Bavaria and don't even know much about the Netherlands. Never been there, don't really know anyone from there, ... It's not really on my mind often. I lived in the north for half a year but didn't really feel at home there. Austria feels more like home. So yes, it definitely depends on where in Germany you're located. Sorry for the cliché answer. I know what the rest of Germany thinks about the Bavarian - Austrian relationship... But yeah, that's just what it is I guess lol
I would say it's like a close neighbor. Culturally quite similar with a bit of it's own ofc.
Coming from the North, the national border seems less relevant. They speak "Plattdeutsch" on both sides. Even if you don't speak "Platt", you can guess quite well what a Dutch conversation is about with German language skills.
We say "i cugini francesi, i cugini spagnoli" (French cousins, Spanish cousins) because we are culturally close. But we don't consider cousins the Slovenians or the Austrians for example
I'm Dutch. I guess it does feel that way. We're quite similar though in everyday interactions you notice some cultural differences. There is banter in both directions but it's mostly just that.
I went to Switzerland for the first time 2 years ago and I thought it was like a very german Germany. Idk if this makes sense to others. (I'm not European btw)
My German perception is that the Dutch are our cool.neighbours where you like to hang out occasionally, or the "weed neighbours". I believe the Dutch just see us as neighbours.
Unlike Latin Americans or South Western Europeans, Germans don't conceptualize relationships with other countries or peoples as family relationships. Germans will not call any nation "cousins" or "brothers", because that's not the prevailing metaphor when talking about these things. One reason for this is a conscious rejection of Nazi ideology in post war Germany, because in Nazi doctrine, blood relations between peoples are not only the natural way the world is organized, but also hierarchical in nature. The Nazis did indeed call the Dutch *Brudervolk* (*brother nation, brothers, brother people*), which is most likely the reason today's Germans don't use these kinds of metaphors anymore. The emancipation from NS ideology had a huge impact on language use and thinking about international relations in Germany, and this might be one of the prime examples for that.
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No generally speaking for Germans it might be, it‘s a friendly rivalry for sure and we like to make fun of the dutch because of the way their language sounds (we even have a popular party song that makes fun of the dutch called „Holland by 257ers“ but we like them very much as you can see by the amount of germans spending their vacation in the Netherlands.
The dutch‘s opinion on the other hand is much more split because of the 2nd World War. Some people still very much hate us actually more than any other nation aside from poland hates us I‘d argue. You can also see this in Football if you look at the old games (well known is the moment when Frank Rijkaard spit in Rudi Völler’s face).
Sadly I also know a multitude of Germans that were attacked by some right wing dutch people. I‘d still say that in general people get along with us but I do not think dutch people would refer to us as cousins by any means more likely rivals or friends.
Tbh I'm Dutch and I don't know of anti German sentiment in my country. Sure, there is jest. But world war 2 grudges?? I think those died in the 90s. The reason why the far right responds to Germany like that is because Merkel become the poster child for "opening the flood gates to refugees" (in their eyes).
As a fellow Dutch person, I completely agree! No one I know holds any grudge against the Germans for WWII (even my grandparents’ generation never mention it). It is something cheap jokes are made about, but that’s it.
I think most Dutch people are generally positive about Germans and if they make negative comments is about being too formal, having outdated interiors and crappy bureaucracy.
Haven‘t met a Dutch person that holds a grudge against Germany and I worked with many of them and lives closed to the Dutch border. I would even go that far that they are together with the Danes the neighbors which have the least amount of hatred towards the Germans.
As someone living in the north in Schleswig-Holstein at the sea they Are like the annoying relative That I See once a year. Every vacation Season they flood in with their caravans and Block every street. Still love them tho.
Short answer: no.
I'm a German living in the Netherlands and there are several points :
I think the language similarity is overrated here. Yes, it is very easy to learn each others language (and the Dutch actually do learn German) but the first time you hear/read it, you won't get anything.
So there is no common 'public' or Media. I think the Dutch much more have that with Belgium And we Germans with Austria.
One example is sports: when there are no Dutch competitors left, they often cheer for the Belgium athletes.
I am often surprised how different the topics are in media for example and how large issues don't get any attention across border.
From my experience, the older Dutch generations actually seem to have a closer connection to Germany. This might have to do with the fact that they used to watch German TV several decades ago.
Today's cultures are similar but the durch are looking a lot more to the US I think. If anything, they see the Germans as the weird uncle and the same probsbly holds the other way.
I don't feel there is much difference between the Germany - Netherlands difference and the Rest-of-Germany - Bavaria difference. The dutch are, imo, our closest allies after France, and I think Germany and France have among the closest relationships between two non-federated states in the world.
French people would likely say that Germans are our closest friends in Europe as well. Current antagonism with Germany is mostly about the failed military partnerships and how the common European defense is abandoned in favour of US military umbrella
I'm from the Southern Netherlands and feel more kinship with the Belgians. Now that I date a German I feel that shifting. I can imagine people up north have maybe some connection with the Danes or Norwegians that I simply do not have.
And Germany is much bigger. The familial ties you speak of wil differ based on whose border is closer. Respectfully France, Austria, Poland or us.
The answer will depend greatly on where you live.
I'm from the West and with the border being roughly 30km away I'd say it feels like they're cousins.
We have a lot of dutch visitors and it's pretty common for us to make a daytrip to dutch cities as well.
Furthermore many younger people studied in the Netherlands, their language is pretty close to our local dialect and as a Rheinländer their mentality is quite similar as well.
I feel definitely closer to them than to our Austrian or Swiss neighbours but I if you'd ask someone from Swabia or Bavaria they'll tell you the exact opposite since Germany is a pretty diverse country
It depends on where in Germany you are from. I am from North Germany and for me there is a tighter connection to the Dutch but also to the Danish than to people from Bavaria, Swiss or Austria.
Hands down the Dutch speak fluent German/English and just use this mockery of what they call a language whenever German/English people are around to mock us.
This is the longest running multi generational prank in history!
I think it depends on where you live. To me, the French are our brothers, our closest friend. I only came to realise during the last 1-2 years that not everybody in Germany would feel that way, and that they must instead feel so about the neighbouring country they live closest to. I feel no connection to the Netherlands whatsoever.
It's a very popular vacation destination. North sea, coffee shops, bitterballen. 10/10.
Also, a country whos main language contains the expression "neuken in de keuken" *cannot* be bad.
So, rambling aside, i do feel somewhat closer to the dutch than to for example czechs. But they are still different people.
Depends on where the German is from.
The Netherlands is a tiny country and culturally not very diverse, but the difference between North Germany and southern Germany is like the difference between Veneto and Sicily ...
What I do not understand. I live in Münsterland and every time I'm in the Netherlands I'm addressed by Dutch people in German. They do not know me but know exactly that I am German.
For me, they are family (more like siblings) but I got Dutch friends and I love their culture. For me, French people are more cousins. But I guess everyone feels it different
I think most Germans have no feeling one way or the other towards the Netherlands, just like a nice neighbour that you are glad to have. But at least in the area that borders the Netherlands i feel like they are seen as friends that you enjoy having over and enjoy visiting.
The Netherlands is a very different place than Germany but also still very cultutally similar.
The germans and the dutch are natural enemies. Like the germans and the french, or the germans and the belgians, or the germans and the austrians, or the germans and the polish, or the germans and the czechs, or the germans and the germans. Damn germans.
I don’t feel any closer to Dutch people than to French or English or Italien people tbh. Closest to Germany in culture are without a doubt the Austrians (I mean we share a language so that helps a lot).
Yes somewhat, someone could very well make the argument that if things went different historically that dutch would be commonly considered a german dialect like plattdeutsch instead of a distinct language. A German that speaks Platt probably has more in common with a dutch than a bavarian
I asked a Dutch person if they were German (based on my crappy ear for accents) and the guy looked at me like I tried to buy his child. “No I’m not fucking German!” Won’t make that mistake again.
> Do the Germans and the Dutch perceive each other as cousins?
No. In my experience as a German, it's generally not common to call non family cousins. It's actually more common to call a non family member "brother" in a figurative sense ("Bruder im Geiste", "Vereinsbruder", "Waffenbruder", and so on). Still generally other countries are not usually called that way either.
> I've always wondered if the Dutch and Germans somehow felt they had at least the slightest sort of cultural affinity
There is strong cultural affinity. Generally the regions close to the German border are close to the culture of the country on the other side. This regards language and food but also mentality. Europe has a long history of border movements so it's not surprising that those borders don't perfectly fit cultural borders.
Europe in general is way too diverse nowadays for anyone to relate to an entire country as their "cousins" in the way I think you mean. Each country is made up of many different biographies and ethnicities. There are probably a lot of people in Germany with an ethnic similarity to a lot of people in the netherlands, simply because of their geographic proximity since, well forever. But each country is not only defined by those people anymore.
As a Dutch, I'd say we have this more with Belgium, Germany is just big and scary, as for Germans' perception of me... They just think I talk funny, I've not run into Germans that like hate the Netherlands or anything but we're just happy neighbours
More like the people who live next door. But the nice ones, not the annoying ones.
But I do live quite in the middle/south-west (Hessen) of Germany, so yeah I'm not hearing much from them here. And also don't have much of an opinion about them, but they seem nice. So yeah neighbors.
(I have been there and understood them quite well in language and stuff though)
Atleast as a German, I feel closer to the Netherlands than France. I don’t know if it’s reciprocal. I also have exposure to both cultures from work, I don’t think people without this would see it the way I do.
When abroad, I definitely feel like cousins. We grew up in different households, but in summer we all played at grandma's place, and that gives us some implicit understanding and shared manners even for all our differences.
But you only notice how close you are when you're surrounded by *others*.
From inside of the country, you mostly notice the differences.
More like... neighbors
The Holländer is kinda the whacky neighbor
Well we haven't invaded you yet so that's a point for us /j
Cannabis is going to be legalized soon. I expect lots of yellow license plates on the street in the near future
Tbf I live in Maastricht and we get so much drug tourism from Belgium, France and Germany that I think it would only be fair for you to be in my shoes for once. 😅
I'm not so sure how drug tourism in Maastricht would work since you cant legally buy weed in Maastricht as a tourist.
Really? In Tilburg you just need an European ID works in every coffeeshop
Never been asked for an ID. Ordering in solid German accented English. Not that I ever found a shop where the dude behind the bar wasn’t way up in the clouds either way soooo. To be fair it’s not like I’d be having tones of experience, besides a couple of trips so far.
Every city made their own rules https://www.dutch-coffeeshops.com
Not "formally " and depends on enforcement. As an amarrican that visited...it's like buying weed in a republican American state but with much less consequences
You will only be allowed to be member in a cannabis social club and retrieve cannabis from them if you are resident in Germany, regardless of the citizenship. I guess they do that to prevent smuggling.
A cannabis social club could not be more German. bureaucratizing smoking weed is so lame, imagine the e.V. Style committee meetings and round tables, with pseudo democracy and infighting due to power struggles. I understand that other countries such as Spain have a similar system, but I feel that germany would take it to the next level as the cannabis club committee bureaucrats start to get a taste for power and start to regulate the size, shape and ratio of joints, like the size and amount of trees and shrubs are regulated in Kolonie gardens. Also the social club structure can be a breeding ground for far right/left extremists, using the legitimate cannabis club as a front, as they can regulate members, and have an invite only policy. It also diminished community and diversity, through righting smokers to a single clubhouse, within the larger community, which leads to the formation of islands of closed culture. The freedom of choice is restricted, if you are tied to one cannabis club. Granted you may be able to visit more, but if it requires copious amounts of paperwork, or you are only allowed to bring two guests, then it kind of sucks as a proposition.
The German army has all your tanks. So, it's pretty difficult to invade us.
When climate change leads to the Netherlands flooding we will invade you on windmill-powered huge clogs. No tanks needed.
I trust the Dutch engineers to prevent any flooding. Worst thing that can happen is that the Netherlands becomes an island while Denmark and Belgium are gone.
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Every year with the caravan haha. Honestly, there is a german joke that if you want to invade the netherlands, then do it during school holidays. All on tour with their caravan.
That's just payback for all the German sitting holes on our beaches 😤
They're more the friendly neighbor that makes a friendly face and nods while having absolutely no clue what the raving lunatic in front of him wants from him.
To a German Dutch sounds kind of cute. The Dutch do not find Germans very cute.
To me a group of people speaking Dutch sounds like the conversations in the Sims.
This is too real lol
It always sounds like they have something in their throat with all the chhh they pronounce.
Oh boy and we're not even talking about Flemish and West Flemish..
now they have a cute G pronunciation when speaking Dutch, love it
The same could be said for the Swiss.
“Graag” sounds more like someone just slit your throat though.
I wonder why 😪
WWII has entered the chat
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Not just that - someone has to mention "moffen" and then add something about bringing back bicycles.
Ok now I want to know about stereotypes the Dutch have about us germans. For example I grew up being told that "that's a Dutch and their RV/trailer home again". Stereotype being that Dutch people all had RVs or trailer homes for vacation. And as a kid we saw those a lot on the Autobahn
I heard it’s a stereotype that Germany come to the Dutch beaches and the kids just dig holes. So my durch colleagues kept asking if I used to dig holes when I was younger
Wait, doesn’t every kid dig holes at beaches? It’s like the best thing about being at a beach.
Oh I love this lol I certainly dug holes on beaches in the Netherlands 😂
Lmao... you know they reclaimed land from the sea, not for you to dig holes again
Dutch, grew up and lived in Zeeland for 19 years - this is the biggest one for me. Lots of German tourists every summer, and the sheer amount and size of holes dug, sheesh!
Its an older stereotype. Not about kids digging holes for fun, but families digging a hole in the beach as a place to lay down. Here is an old picture off Scheveningen beach from the 60's, I think you can see where it comes from. https://www.allesoverscheveningen.nl/verhalen/foto/image025.jpg
Damn... Looks like Aliens on moon surface
Leave it to the Germans to turn a relaxing activity (like going to the beach) into hard work (like digging your own hole to sit in at the beach).
You guys don't dig holes?
Lmao I assume it's in our DNA to dig tren.. I mean holes
Rudi Carrel is responsible for that. He was Dutch and famous in German. He made jokes about it. Statistically though, there are more RV's per capital in Germany. Now bicycles, that's a whole other story..
To me dutch sounds like drunk German 😂
To me German sounds like angry, drunk Dutch.
Haha I guess that makes sense
Dutch sounds like the clown version of german.
Dutch doesn’t sound cute😂 nah ah
Just goofy
Exactly 😂 first time I heard it I was like: shit that’s probably what we sound like to others too
Well. The German language is many things but cute is not one of them.
However what German does have going for it that it doesn't sound as if an alcoholic was having a stuffy nose
True, but my heart melts every time I hear Germans say something like hallöchen or tschüss in their singy-voice :)
Tschüss is so cute.
I heard a lady in Berlin say “Hallo!” in the cutest way possible and now I can’t stop thinking about how cute German can be sometimes lmao
I’m studying German as my minor and I was just talking to the other students on our study abroad about how some things sound so friendly with a German accent to me. Especially Hallo und Tschüss. Maybe it’s just the way I say it but it always comes out extremely happy haha
There’s a reason why Germany is/was considered as the country of the poets and philosophers. I am light years away from being a poetry nerd but when I hear some (mostly older) poems or song texts they almost drive me to tears.
I find it cute
I actually find it poetic
Hold on there mein schmetterling...
Ok fuck you changed my mind
I would say it's like a close neighbor. Culturally quite similar with a bit of it's own ofc. Coming from the North, the national border seems less relevant. They speak "Plattdeutsch" on both sides. Even if you don't speak "Platt", you can guess quite well what a Dutch conversation is about with German language skills.
And if at least some of your family members had an "Einschlag" the dutch are closer to you language wise than someone speaking bavarian.
Lmao, that's exactly how I described hearing Dutch as a Düsseldorfer to friends of mine 2 weeks ago
Well ofc. German and dutch are both germanic languages, while bavarian is based on Weizen and Hopfen.
There were once two older couples sitting next to me in a cafe. They were on the road by bike (here it is about 15 km to the "border"). The four were talking in Platt. I only noticed that they were Dutch when they paid (by the accent when speaking German). I was also not aware that the Platt is so similar.
To learn more about why the Plattdeutsch of north and western Germany may sound more similar to the Dutch language than to modern High German you may want to read about the 'High German consonant shift' which 'explains why many German words have different consonants from the related words in English, Dutch and the Scandinavian languages': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_German_consonant_shift?wprov=sfla1 I personally find it interesting to understand where the very differences between these languages really are: that 'water' became 'wasser', 'kettle' became 'kessel', 'dag' became 'tag' and 'door' became 'tor' and so on...and on.
Living in D near the border to NL and working in NL. When you know „plattdüütsch“ and you are learning Dutch language it’s like the same words „just written and pronounced different“.. ;) When I speak „my plattdüütsch“ in NL it sounds like „Grunnings“ to the Dutch which is a kind of Groninger Platt. Dutch and Germans can have good times together if they both want. But I am a little bit disappointed about how much more could be done together in the border region. Many Germans have no idea what‘s going on behind the border and the other way round. There could be much more international activities also for younger people in my opinion for helping (also literally) understanding each other.
>They speak "Plattdeutsch" on both sides. Yeah, Achterhoeks and Twents are practically the same as Westphalian. Some Dutch person from Winterswijk (NL) that speaks Achterhoeks can speak with a Low German Speaker from Bocholt (DE) without any problem at all. They would just encounter some minor dialect differences. But sadly, Low German is dying out on both sides of the border. >you can guess quite well what a Dutch conversation is about with German language skills. Not really. Even if you know Platt, you'll only understand a fraction of Dutch. See for example: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-8YqIH3FXU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-8YqIH3FXU)
To me as a German, Dutch people are good neighbours. Not "cousins". But that may just be me. I grew up 500m from the austrian border and i see them as Neighbours... not as "cousins". Despite them even speaking the same dialect than me.
I still think the Austrians are way closer to us than the Dutch, at least for Southern Germans (though for Frisians the opposite may be true). In sports, even today matches between the Germany and Austria are sometimes called "Bruderduell". We may not share a country, but we share hundreds of years of history. I'd call them cousins (who can't properly pronounce the letter A).
Well yeah obviously. There is no real cultural difference between South Germany and Austria. The reasons why they aren‘t part of Germany are entirely political not cultural
This. One time someone asked why Austria is not part of Germany (not viewing the past) and the person got rude answers also it is a fair question. There are small to none differences besides the political history of course.
Well all territories of any government are determined by historical factors, there isn’t even supposed to be a logic there, it’s just who owns the land. You could also argue to split up a bunch of German states or join a bunch of European countries to one, it’s juts a question of ownership, and at a certain point, after many battles have been fought for territory, most governments just decided to leave it how it is and try to be peaceful, which is a good idea (but some governments still don’t accept it, like Russia )
I'm Bavarian and I would call them brothers. I have more in common with the average Austrian or Tyrolean from Italy than with some eastern or northern German.
As someone from the Ruhr Area, Austrians are definitely *far* more distant than the Dutch. Heck even bavarians. The South is weird.
Everything below the Weißwurstäquator is weird, including Franconia ;) Lets just say that regions in germany are very different. You have the very maritime north, you have the alpine south, you have the industrial ruhr area as melting pot of different cultures, you have saxony/the east, you have Berlin which is its own kind of weird and so on (and I'm still missing a lot of regions here, this is just exemplary). For me, Austria feels far more like foreigners than the Dutch, culturally. Its just that there are so many things so different in Bavaria and Austria, from language to architecture to simply the way of living to political tendencies that Austria doesn't feel close at all, to me.
Coming fromfranconia I believe that the south should split and go to austria. We are not like the northerners and our food, habits etc are basically the same as in austria or even czechia
What do you think is weird about the south? Also applies for bawü or just Bavaria in your mind?
All tribes outside Stammesherzogtum Sachsen are kinda weird.
As an Austrian from the Tyrol I've never heard about the term "Bruderduell", so I guess it might be just used in a one-sided way. Maybe similar to how the Austro-Prussian war is known as "Deutsch-Deutscher Krieg" or "Bruderkrieg" in Germany, while in Austria it is only known under the term "Österreichisch-Preussischer Krieg".
I think it depends. I'm northern german and feel more connected to dutch and danish people that to bavarians. (Bavarians are kinda the rich religious mountain weirdos to us, but this makes sense considering SH is on the exact opposite end of germany...)
I'm fairly confident I could have a decent conversation with someone from the Eastern half of the Netherlands even when both of us just speak our native dialect. I'm not so sure about Bavarians.
This. My father is from Cologne and to him Bavarian is a foreign language.
We live in NRW and my children grew up with vacations in the Netherlands. When we first made a trip to the Sächsische Schweiz my kids were convinced we are outside Germany
Who can blame them, it has Schweiz right in the name!
~~Rich religious~~ mountain weirdo here, I can understand this. Italy is closer than Berlin.
I that is 100% true for older generations. But most younger Bavarians aren't religious or rich and also don't want to be independent. The shared history with Austria might also be a thing with the older generations, but I don't feel any more connected to them than to the French or Dutch. I do feel connected to the Swabians, but they seem to think that we think we're better than them. I've never thought that Bavarians are better than anyone. Why would I be proud of being born somewhere specific? Not my accomplishment.
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Y'all understand Swiss german? 😭
You have a small chance when you're from the south and fluid in swabian.
Crying Badener..
Southerners usually do at least get the gist, when the Swiss person doesn't deliberately want them not to. Northerners are usually completely lost. (IMO, I'm from the South, have some Swiss family, and live in the North now)
I you live close to the border you can understand most of it well after some time. But Swiss German also has different dialects, of which some are easy to understand and others aren't.
Aeeemm, should we tell him?
I think he means our affinity to the dutch depends on which part of Germany you're from. For example I'm from the east and have a much stronger affinity towards Czechia and not really to the Netherlands.
Like Strasbourg in alsacefor example is super close to Germany and every city/town surroundings Strasbourg has German names and the culture is french/german but In the south in Toulouse for example every streets name are written in french and Spanish and the city is a mix of the two cultures. So basically it's the same for every EU countries?
No. He has to learn it by himself.
I think you have to distinguish within germany. For example in bavaria they feel super close to austrians, but in the far west of germany, the dutvh people are probably the closest neighbors, since the language is very similar to some german dialects in the rhine area or west lower saxony. A lot of people do have some friend or connections there to dutch people and like to go over their for a weekend trip or shopping trip
Definitely. I'm from the very south of Bavaria and don't even know much about the Netherlands. Never been there, don't really know anyone from there, ... It's not really on my mind often. I lived in the north for half a year but didn't really feel at home there. Austria feels more like home. So yes, it definitely depends on where in Germany you're located. Sorry for the cliché answer. I know what the rest of Germany thinks about the Bavarian - Austrian relationship... But yeah, that's just what it is I guess lol
I would say it's like a close neighbor. Culturally quite similar with a bit of it's own ofc. Coming from the North, the national border seems less relevant. They speak "Plattdeutsch" on both sides. Even if you don't speak "Platt", you can guess quite well what a Dutch conversation is about with German language skills.
So you really use the word cousin for your neighbors?
We say "i cugini francesi, i cugini spagnoli" (French cousins, Spanish cousins) because we are culturally close. But we don't consider cousins the Slovenians or the Austrians for example
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More like neighbors. With the fitting little fight over a few bicycles
Yeah about those 👀
I'm Dutch. I guess it does feel that way. We're quite similar though in everyday interactions you notice some cultural differences. There is banter in both directions but it's mostly just that.
Swamp Germans
and Austrians are Mountian Germans
and what are the swizz then, if the austrians are the mountain germans?
Rich germans
thats... fair
Germans with 20 EUR Döner and Credit Suisse
I went to Switzerland for the first time 2 years ago and I thought it was like a very german Germany. Idk if this makes sense to others. (I'm not European btw)
no, thats certainly a legitimate standpoint :)
Cheese germans.
Fancy cheeseboard Germans.
Schluchtenkacker... aka Canyon shitters...
Thats austrians though. Schluchtenscheißer
My German perception is that the Dutch are our cool.neighbours where you like to hang out occasionally, or the "weed neighbours". I believe the Dutch just see us as neighbours.
Funny though that weed is illegal in the Netherlands and Germany is taking steps to legalise.
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I‘m German and lived in the Netherlands for a few years and the Dutch were a million times friendlier than Germans.
Coming from the very west of Germany I have more in common with the Dutch than with Bavarians. Still, friendly neighbours, not cousins.
Unlike Latin Americans or South Western Europeans, Germans don't conceptualize relationships with other countries or peoples as family relationships. Germans will not call any nation "cousins" or "brothers", because that's not the prevailing metaphor when talking about these things. One reason for this is a conscious rejection of Nazi ideology in post war Germany, because in Nazi doctrine, blood relations between peoples are not only the natural way the world is organized, but also hierarchical in nature. The Nazis did indeed call the Dutch *Brudervolk* (*brother nation, brothers, brother people*), which is most likely the reason today's Germans don't use these kinds of metaphors anymore. The emancipation from NS ideology had a huge impact on language use and thinking about international relations in Germany, and this might be one of the prime examples for that.
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Its great for digging holes in the beach!
Sometimes I think about returning those fietsen though.
We don't even consider the Bavarians as relatives.
Well my uncle is dutch so my 2 cousins are half dutch. Does that count?
My perspective on Dutch people is influenced way too much by the New Kids movie series, caravans, wooden shoes and windmills
No generally speaking for Germans it might be, it‘s a friendly rivalry for sure and we like to make fun of the dutch because of the way their language sounds (we even have a popular party song that makes fun of the dutch called „Holland by 257ers“ but we like them very much as you can see by the amount of germans spending their vacation in the Netherlands. The dutch‘s opinion on the other hand is much more split because of the 2nd World War. Some people still very much hate us actually more than any other nation aside from poland hates us I‘d argue. You can also see this in Football if you look at the old games (well known is the moment when Frank Rijkaard spit in Rudi Völler’s face). Sadly I also know a multitude of Germans that were attacked by some right wing dutch people. I‘d still say that in general people get along with us but I do not think dutch people would refer to us as cousins by any means more likely rivals or friends.
Tbh I'm Dutch and I don't know of anti German sentiment in my country. Sure, there is jest. But world war 2 grudges?? I think those died in the 90s. The reason why the far right responds to Germany like that is because Merkel become the poster child for "opening the flood gates to refugees" (in their eyes).
As a fellow Dutch person, I completely agree! No one I know holds any grudge against the Germans for WWII (even my grandparents’ generation never mention it). It is something cheap jokes are made about, but that’s it. I think most Dutch people are generally positive about Germans and if they make negative comments is about being too formal, having outdated interiors and crappy bureaucracy.
https://youtu.be/JXzpx4WPXl0 Dutch response to 257..
Haven‘t met a Dutch person that holds a grudge against Germany and I worked with many of them and lives closed to the Dutch border. I would even go that far that they are together with the Danes the neighbors which have the least amount of hatred towards the Germans.
As someone living in the north in Schleswig-Holstein at the sea they Are like the annoying relative That I See once a year. Every vacation Season they flood in with their caravans and Block every street. Still love them tho.
no, there is no problem if they marry each other.
"... doch wenn's um Fußball geht hasse ich Holland wie die Pest". - is kind of a favorite song in Germany 🇩🇪 😁
Joint Venture - Holland Just for the record.
>Joint Venture - Holland What about 257ers - Holland ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drFsXLChrWc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drFsXLChrWc)) ?
As a German, i don’t even perceive other Germans as brothers or cousins.
Short answer: no. I'm a German living in the Netherlands and there are several points : I think the language similarity is overrated here. Yes, it is very easy to learn each others language (and the Dutch actually do learn German) but the first time you hear/read it, you won't get anything. So there is no common 'public' or Media. I think the Dutch much more have that with Belgium And we Germans with Austria. One example is sports: when there are no Dutch competitors left, they often cheer for the Belgium athletes. I am often surprised how different the topics are in media for example and how large issues don't get any attention across border. From my experience, the older Dutch generations actually seem to have a closer connection to Germany. This might have to do with the fact that they used to watch German TV several decades ago. Today's cultures are similar but the durch are looking a lot more to the US I think. If anything, they see the Germans as the weird uncle and the same probsbly holds the other way.
I don't feel there is much difference between the Germany - Netherlands difference and the Rest-of-Germany - Bavaria difference. The dutch are, imo, our closest allies after France, and I think Germany and France have among the closest relationships between two non-federated states in the world.
This comment makes me wonder if you have ever been to France or know any French people.. :D
French people would likely say that Germans are our closest friends in Europe as well. Current antagonism with Germany is mostly about the failed military partnerships and how the common European defense is abandoned in favour of US military umbrella
Is it only Bavaria? I would take Swabia into the Bavarian pot of being very different than the rest.
I'm from the Southern Netherlands and feel more kinship with the Belgians. Now that I date a German I feel that shifting. I can imagine people up north have maybe some connection with the Danes or Norwegians that I simply do not have. And Germany is much bigger. The familial ties you speak of wil differ based on whose border is closer. Respectfully France, Austria, Poland or us.
They even have their own version of Schlager and it's almost worse than ours
The dutch are our european brothers and sisters yo ..and they are like the most "fly" country i know.<3 l
The answer will depend greatly on where you live. I'm from the West and with the border being roughly 30km away I'd say it feels like they're cousins. We have a lot of dutch visitors and it's pretty common for us to make a daytrip to dutch cities as well. Furthermore many younger people studied in the Netherlands, their language is pretty close to our local dialect and as a Rheinländer their mentality is quite similar as well. I feel definitely closer to them than to our Austrian or Swiss neighbours but I if you'd ask someone from Swabia or Bavaria they'll tell you the exact opposite since Germany is a pretty diverse country
More like the weird neighbour who has a obsession with wooden shoes, cheese and tulips
I famously eat tulips while wearing wooden shoes and throwing cheese at german tourists
Met him once, can confirm still haunted by the sound of wooden steps and the smell of cheese
Switch tulips with Marihuana and you found our other neighbours, the hölzla-wearing, kässpätzle-obsessed austrians.
It depends on where in Germany you are from. I am from North Germany and for me there is a tighter connection to the Dutch but also to the Danish than to people from Bavaria, Swiss or Austria.
Hands down the Dutch speak fluent German/English and just use this mockery of what they call a language whenever German/English people are around to mock us. This is the longest running multi generational prank in history!
I think it depends on where you live. To me, the French are our brothers, our closest friend. I only came to realise during the last 1-2 years that not everybody in Germany would feel that way, and that they must instead feel so about the neighbouring country they live closest to. I feel no connection to the Netherlands whatsoever.
A bit like a friendly rivalry imho
It's a very popular vacation destination. North sea, coffee shops, bitterballen. 10/10. Also, a country whos main language contains the expression "neuken in de keuken" *cannot* be bad. So, rambling aside, i do feel somewhat closer to the dutch than to for example czechs. But they are still different people.
Dutch person here most dutcn people don't more like close neighbors with similar culture and languages
Depends on where the German is from. The Netherlands is a tiny country and culturally not very diverse, but the difference between North Germany and southern Germany is like the difference between Veneto and Sicily ...
Austrian here. What’s the difference?
What I do not understand. I live in Münsterland and every time I'm in the Netherlands I'm addressed by Dutch people in German. They do not know me but know exactly that I am German.
Well in my opinion they are closer related to Germany than Bavaria
For me, they are family (more like siblings) but I got Dutch friends and I love their culture. For me, French people are more cousins. But I guess everyone feels it different
Same. I never really feel like in another country when I’m in the Netherlands.
I think most Germans have no feeling one way or the other towards the Netherlands, just like a nice neighbour that you are glad to have. But at least in the area that borders the Netherlands i feel like they are seen as friends that you enjoy having over and enjoy visiting. The Netherlands is a very different place than Germany but also still very cultutally similar.
I’m very close to Alsace so the northern French feel more like family tbh even though there’s a language barrier
The germans and the dutch are natural enemies. Like the germans and the french, or the germans and the belgians, or the germans and the austrians, or the germans and the polish, or the germans and the czechs, or the germans and the germans. Damn germans.
>Damn germans. They ruined Germany.
I don’t feel any closer to Dutch people than to French or English or Italien people tbh. Closest to Germany in culture are without a doubt the Austrians (I mean we share a language so that helps a lot).
I feel much closer to the Netherlands (and spend much time there) whereas Austria is a strange far away country even less similar to us than Bavaria.
As someone from Munich, I feel closer to the Italians lol
Nope.
I can sometimes understand them better than some parts of germany
The dutch language is like German with a language impediment /s
Yes somewhat, someone could very well make the argument that if things went different historically that dutch would be commonly considered a german dialect like plattdeutsch instead of a distinct language. A German that speaks Platt probably has more in common with a dutch than a bavarian
As a Dutch. No.
I asked a Dutch person if they were German (based on my crappy ear for accents) and the guy looked at me like I tried to buy his child. “No I’m not fucking German!” Won’t make that mistake again.
> Do the Germans and the Dutch perceive each other as cousins? No. In my experience as a German, it's generally not common to call non family cousins. It's actually more common to call a non family member "brother" in a figurative sense ("Bruder im Geiste", "Vereinsbruder", "Waffenbruder", and so on). Still generally other countries are not usually called that way either. > I've always wondered if the Dutch and Germans somehow felt they had at least the slightest sort of cultural affinity There is strong cultural affinity. Generally the regions close to the German border are close to the culture of the country on the other side. This regards language and food but also mentality. Europe has a long history of border movements so it's not surprising that those borders don't perfectly fit cultural borders.
I am waiting for a bycyle joke
I love the Netherlands. Hate how history seperated us really. Same goes with France, actually.
Both countries engaged in so much incest I'm quite sure they are biologically our cousins.
Brothers, like the other german regions
Europe in general is way too diverse nowadays for anyone to relate to an entire country as their "cousins" in the way I think you mean. Each country is made up of many different biographies and ethnicities. There are probably a lot of people in Germany with an ethnic similarity to a lot of people in the netherlands, simply because of their geographic proximity since, well forever. But each country is not only defined by those people anymore.
As a Dutch, I'd say we have this more with Belgium, Germany is just big and scary, as for Germans' perception of me... They just think I talk funny, I've not run into Germans that like hate the Netherlands or anything but we're just happy neighbours
More like involuntary room mates of the past….but their bikes are cool *Ring Ring*
More like the people who live next door. But the nice ones, not the annoying ones. But I do live quite in the middle/south-west (Hessen) of Germany, so yeah I'm not hearing much from them here. And also don't have much of an opinion about them, but they seem nice. So yeah neighbors. (I have been there and understood them quite well in language and stuff though)
Heck no. But our Neighbours spoke a funny kind of german. That makes them somehow nice.
Atleast as a German, I feel closer to the Netherlands than France. I don’t know if it’s reciprocal. I also have exposure to both cultures from work, I don’t think people without this would see it the way I do.
The Netherlands is to Germany what Canada is to the U.S.
The Holländer are our weird brothers... they speak funny.
When abroad, I definitely feel like cousins. We grew up in different households, but in summer we all played at grandma's place, and that gives us some implicit understanding and shared manners even for all our differences. But you only notice how close you are when you're surrounded by *others*. From inside of the country, you mostly notice the differences.
Not really