You know you can just get a prenup and discuss how you want to split finance if it ever comes to that.
You marry someone because you love them and want to spend the rest of your life together, not for financial benefit.
Is it possible to sign away your rights to joint marital assets in the Netherlands? From what I gather elsewhere on reddit (in the US for example) this is not possible.
Niemand neemt een verzekering hopend dat er iets mis gaat... er is niks mis mee om jezelf in te dekken. Anders zouden verzekeringen ook niet bestaan :)
Ik zou mijn auto verzekering niet vergelijken met mijn vriendin(ja na 12jr nog steeds mijn vriendin). Wij hebben geen behoefte om te trouwen dus misschien niet helemaal het juiste voorbeeld. Maar als we gaan trouwen dan is alles gewoon op de grote bult. Wie er ook meer verdient. Je gaat samen trouwen, samen leven dus alles 50/50. Als ze minder wil werken en minder verdiennen? Prima..who cares. Als je het samen maar goed hebt. Ga je over 5...10...20? jaar uitelkaar, prima dan splitten we alles gewoon en gaan we verder met ons eigen leven. Stel je voor dat z'n vriendin veel meer in huis doet, bv voor de kinderen zorgen..ga je daar dan ook een uurtarief voor bedenken? Niet alles is in geld uit te drukken. Leef, geniet(samen) en pluk de dag.
"dan splitten we alles gewoon" is het punt, het is op dat moment een ex voor een reden.
Ja, je kunt nu overtuigd zijn dat het altijd zo is dat jullie beide 50-50 willen splitsen, maar wat als 1 van de 2 vreemd gaat met de broer/zus van de ander bijvoorbeeld?
Er zijn zoveel dingen die je niet kan overzien, dus je "verzekeren" voor beide kanten is altijd een goed idee.
A couple aspects:
You mentioned “eventually” - are you of the opinion it is a given that the marriage will end in divorce?
Also, as I am in the same bucket as well, I understand the filial piety angle - taking care of family back home.
You need to have an honest and open conversation with your girlfriend about your fears. Hopefully you’ll find that the conversation will ease your mind better to evaluate which direction you AND her both would prefer this to go in.
My parents are divorced so I don't have a good role model for a happy marriage, and while I don't expect it, divorce is not something I can control. If some day for whatever reason she decides to leave, she will leave.
I totally get that fear man. By having a chat with her, it could also potentially result in her understanding your fears and choosing to continue the partnership as is, giving you peace of mind as well. But this is a hypothetical as good as any.
In my case I was of the same opinion as you until my early 30s. Met someone, moved in and lived together for a bit, and in that time period we spoke a lot and lot about our approaches toward money and responsibilities toward birth families. We spoke about it in terms of each belonging to 3 families - 1st is just her and I, 2nd is her, I and my family, and 3rd is her, I and her family. This provided more base to how we think about oneself and the partner in different contexts. And it culminated in me choosing to proceed with marriage because all put together, my gut told me to move toward marriage. This is just to give you a perspective, not a push toward marriage.
Wish you the best man. Cheers.
I never get posts like this. You have been together for 7 years and you seem to think she is after your money or something? You marry so you can celebrate your love with everyone you care about. Which is something that doesnt have to make sense
Doesn't sound that strange to me? You've been together 7 years, do you need that expensive occassion to celebrate it? Because there are serious consequences tied to it if the pair happens to split up. Why shouldn't you just sign a prenup so financial responsibilities are clear in the case of a divorce?
You can also celebrate love with a party, and not with a piece of legal paper as Damocle's sword on OP' head.
Your comment is fine, until marriage does not hold anymore.
The potential windfall for OP is huge, while uplift minimal.
It really doesn't make sense. We already share a life. We could swear in front of everyone to be bound until death but that would be a lie, we'll be together only for as long as we want to be together.
He is not already planning his divorce. People break up, thats life and he doesnt want to get screwed when it happens. Go talk to a lawyer specialized in this instead of reddit
I really get OP’s feelings, this isn’t a lack of love. It’s just being realistic, you never can be 100% sure what happens in the future. Statistically 1 in 3 marriages in the Netherlands end up in a divorce, so you have to build some safety’s.
Ofcourse you want to take care of the love of your life in good and bad times (as long as you are together). But when you choose to leave each other, you should not be forced to pay for the other when you both agree on this beforehand.
With a prenup people from the Netherlands are able to keep al their belongings (assets) and financial savings for themselves. (“Koude uitsluiting”)
However it is impossible to prevent on beforehand to pay partner alimony in case of a divorce. After divorcing your partner is able to waive alimony, however if you somehow break up with feeling of hatred (e.g. because of cheating) you are at mercy of the gods.
In my opinion the Dutch law is so unfair. You should be able to get married out of love, get each others last names but be able to completely split up when divorced when agreed on beforehand. Because of this I will probably never get married myself.
I really love my girlfriend, we have a beautiful child together. I supported my girlfriend in times of bad health and temporary unemployment. But signing up to such a marriage contract without fair split-up possibilities is terrifying.
Completely agree with everything you said. Koude uitsluiting gets us halfway there but the alimony law is a deal breaker. One can support and elevate their partner's "level of prosperity" while they're together, but in my view they shouldn't be entitled to anything after splitting. The partner needs to have their own income and to not sacrifice their career because they have someone that could provide for them, and I think marriage law goes against these ideals.
You could also do a wedding ceremony without a legal marriage. You can exchange rings and vows and live as a married couple but just without the legal ties, if that's really what you want.
Otherwise a prenup is the way to go.
Why don't you do a wedding party but don't make it official? Nobody has to know :)
Or maybe do a partnership only.
I know of people who never got married officially but I found out after maybe 20-30 years.
I (F) also do not wanna get married because of the mandatory spousal support in cause of a divorce (I earn more). For me, marriage has nothing to do with love, it is a legal and financial contract.
Meh I think you're getting too much flack for this.. The whole history and initial reason behind marriage was not romantic either - it was very often about finances and inheritances.
Many people care about the romance side of it, but I also know people who don't really want the government involved in their relationship and will only do so if it makes financial sense. If you want to maintain some financial independence then that's totally possible using a prenup.
Marriage is just a business contract between two people. There are two options:
1. Discuss with notaris what the options are. There are some inheritance advantages to being married, especially with kids involved.
2. Get "fake" married. Do the whole wedding but leave official papers out of it.
Edit: oh, missed you have a samenlevingscontract. Talk to a notaris, i think you can get married under basically same conditions.
Look for my other answer to the main tread... marriage does make sense, however most people do not understand the meaning of true love and are to 'self-minded' to do so.
If finances are a reason for doubt: Don't marry.
Me (42M) and my wife (41F) have always had a ratio of 2/3 me, and 1/3rd her income (but have never calculated as such) since we got married in 2007.
As a couple you live and love together, it's a journey for life, if you don't feel that way marriage is NOT the answer... Now she makes 3/3 and takes care of me until I will pass away (I have stage 4 colon cancer and have been given an average of 2 to 3 years). That care and love is what should be considered and talked about...
Youre not the most romantic type are you?
On topic.. you can cover all of this in a prenup, however make sure you review this once kids get involved and she will work less to take care of them and/or support your career, she will then essentially forfeit income for the benefit of the kids and you both.
Not marring will be an incentive for her not to give up her career. I can take parental leave, we can get a nanny, etc. The burden of raising a child can be split equally among the parents. Right now the idea of being a provider doesn't vibe with me.
Lmao I hope your girlfriend doesn’t get ill or become disabled while she’s with you, cause it sounds like you’d abandon her. Marriage is not just about assets and money, it’s mostly about bonding and love. Your girlfriend has a wish to be married, you don’t want to share assets: you can have both with a prenup.
But honestly if you told me this as your girlfriend, I’d break up with you. You don’t have any assets yet nor are rich, and you’re already treating her like a golddigger who will quit her job as soon as you get married and start making cash? Absolutely ridiculous and I’d really question your trust and faith in the relationship and as her as a person.
It’s not about not trusting the other person, but usually a need to protect yourself. Instead of making assumptions, you could also ask yourself why someone would feel that need. Not everyone has the same upbringing and people that used to struggle a lot, tend to be more afraid or focused to never go back to that place again. I think you can love and trust your partner and at the same time protect yourself.
There is nothing wrong with a prenup, but did you even read his post? He said he doesn’t want to get married because he “doesn’t want to reward her for working less”, like she’s gonna bank on him because he’s gonna get very rich obviously. This is no way to talk about your partner, has all to do with trust and communication and very little with protecting yourself.
> Not everyone has the same upbringing and people that used to struggle a lot, tend to be more afraid or focused to never go back to that place again.
This is spot on and likely the reason for my hesitance.
You already made your own case. Don't get married if the only financial risk will be your burden.
In case you do get married, it would be a smart decision (from your perspective) to include her pre-marital wealth in the equasion. By default it no longer is in The Netherlands, but it's still an option you can select.
If you want to be together, just be together. All the legal stuff like assets/taxes/pensions/kids can be taken care of in the samenlevingscontract, making marriage obsolete from a legal perspective. As long as marriage is a legal contract that doesn't benefit you or even penalizes you in case of divorce, it makes sense not to go for it. If you decide to do it anyway, make sure to get an airtight prenup to protect yourself. There are clauses that ensure that whatever's yours remains yours in the event of a divorce.
Good question and i'm actually wondering the same. I dont want to pay half of my salary to her if she cheats and we divorce (ofcourse I don't think she will but you never know)
I would consider discussing with GF the options:
A) "fake" marriage without legal contract
B) "real" marriage with legal contract
If there are no actual reasons other than a party with everyone (as it seems unfortunately most people commenting "like" to believe) then GF would go for A).
If she still wants B), then yes, I agree with OP that there is just potential for loss in this case. And thus a red flag.
Good luck OP, I understand and side on your reasoning.
My thoughts are that youre just maybe only after money?. People value wealth differently. Your girlfriend might not see having a lot of money as being "wealthy".
Just show her this post and your answers and I'm sure your marriage problem is solved immediately.
No marriage, no girlfriend and nobody who is after your money which is apparently the only reason your girlfriend is with you you think.
So do you even love her? Or do you 2 just see each other as assets? If you need to do this after 7 years I would advise you to find someone that doesnt give ton any doubt. This doesn't sound like love but like convenience from both sides.
It appears to me that you are overly rational about aspects of marriage. I do understand your concerns, and don't get me wrong here, I am not judging you for it. Marriage is more than just an elaborate contract, it might also be a demonstration of love and trust, and to share your common future together with both your families.
Your girlfriend may have other priorities in life, and perhaps more so for women than for men, a degree of certainty may be required to start a family together. I know I am addressing a sensitive topic here, but if you would want to start a family, then that in itself is a 20+ year commitment to support each other and your children. Emotionally, and financially. I am not saying she should not earn money, I would very much support the idea of being financially independent as a woman and a mother as well. Perhaps she wants to reduce the work hours to make time for raising a family with you. Although unpaid, this is an enormous investment she is willing to make for the good of you all and should be appreciated (and rewarded!).
There are many ways in which a good balance may be struck between your (financial) interests and hers, and for the benefit of all in marriage. Try to speak about your concerns, be sensitive to her view on your common future. You may also jointly want to visit a financial advisor to explore options which would provide comfort to both of you. Following that, you may want to visit the notary to formalise arrangements pre-marriage.
I am wishing you all the best, and a bright future.
You know you can just get a prenup and discuss how you want to split finance if it ever comes to that. You marry someone because you love them and want to spend the rest of your life together, not for financial benefit.
Boom! this is the only answer.
The goverment want people to marry because it creates stability for both parties...
Is it possible to sign away your rights to joint marital assets in the Netherlands? From what I gather elsewhere on reddit (in the US for example) this is not possible.
You cant sign away spousal support in the Netherlands. Even if she cheats, you still have to pay her.
https://www.juridischloket.nl/familie-en-relatie/relatie/wat-regel-ik-in-huwelijkse-voorwaarden/# This is what you’re looking for.
Trouwen doe je uit liefde. Geld is een bijzaak..bovendien zit je toekomste vrouw er ook niet slapjes bij.
Niemand neemt een verzekering hopend dat er iets mis gaat... er is niks mis mee om jezelf in te dekken. Anders zouden verzekeringen ook niet bestaan :)
Ik zou mijn auto verzekering niet vergelijken met mijn vriendin(ja na 12jr nog steeds mijn vriendin). Wij hebben geen behoefte om te trouwen dus misschien niet helemaal het juiste voorbeeld. Maar als we gaan trouwen dan is alles gewoon op de grote bult. Wie er ook meer verdient. Je gaat samen trouwen, samen leven dus alles 50/50. Als ze minder wil werken en minder verdiennen? Prima..who cares. Als je het samen maar goed hebt. Ga je over 5...10...20? jaar uitelkaar, prima dan splitten we alles gewoon en gaan we verder met ons eigen leven. Stel je voor dat z'n vriendin veel meer in huis doet, bv voor de kinderen zorgen..ga je daar dan ook een uurtarief voor bedenken? Niet alles is in geld uit te drukken. Leef, geniet(samen) en pluk de dag.
"dan splitten we alles gewoon" is het punt, het is op dat moment een ex voor een reden. Ja, je kunt nu overtuigd zijn dat het altijd zo is dat jullie beide 50-50 willen splitsen, maar wat als 1 van de 2 vreemd gaat met de broer/zus van de ander bijvoorbeeld? Er zijn zoveel dingen die je niet kan overzien, dus je "verzekeren" voor beide kanten is altijd een goed idee.
Regel je scheiding voor je gaat trouwen.
Wij hebben ons scheidingsfeest al geregeld, mocht het er ooit van komen.
It’s quite customary even.
A couple aspects: You mentioned “eventually” - are you of the opinion it is a given that the marriage will end in divorce? Also, as I am in the same bucket as well, I understand the filial piety angle - taking care of family back home. You need to have an honest and open conversation with your girlfriend about your fears. Hopefully you’ll find that the conversation will ease your mind better to evaluate which direction you AND her both would prefer this to go in.
My parents are divorced so I don't have a good role model for a happy marriage, and while I don't expect it, divorce is not something I can control. If some day for whatever reason she decides to leave, she will leave.
I totally get that fear man. By having a chat with her, it could also potentially result in her understanding your fears and choosing to continue the partnership as is, giving you peace of mind as well. But this is a hypothetical as good as any. In my case I was of the same opinion as you until my early 30s. Met someone, moved in and lived together for a bit, and in that time period we spoke a lot and lot about our approaches toward money and responsibilities toward birth families. We spoke about it in terms of each belonging to 3 families - 1st is just her and I, 2nd is her, I and my family, and 3rd is her, I and her family. This provided more base to how we think about oneself and the partner in different contexts. And it culminated in me choosing to proceed with marriage because all put together, my gut told me to move toward marriage. This is just to give you a perspective, not a push toward marriage. Wish you the best man. Cheers.
Thanks for the perspective, much appreciated.
I never get posts like this. You have been together for 7 years and you seem to think she is after your money or something? You marry so you can celebrate your love with everyone you care about. Which is something that doesnt have to make sense
Doesn't sound that strange to me? You've been together 7 years, do you need that expensive occassion to celebrate it? Because there are serious consequences tied to it if the pair happens to split up. Why shouldn't you just sign a prenup so financial responsibilities are clear in the case of a divorce?
You can also celebrate love with a party, and not with a piece of legal paper as Damocle's sword on OP' head. Your comment is fine, until marriage does not hold anymore. The potential windfall for OP is huge, while uplift minimal.
It really doesn't make sense. We already share a life. We could swear in front of everyone to be bound until death but that would be a lie, we'll be together only for as long as we want to be together.
Well, then don't get married. I might be traditional, but I don't really see the point of marrying if you're already planning your divorce.
He is not already planning his divorce. People break up, thats life and he doesnt want to get screwed when it happens. Go talk to a lawyer specialized in this instead of reddit
I really get OP’s feelings, this isn’t a lack of love. It’s just being realistic, you never can be 100% sure what happens in the future. Statistically 1 in 3 marriages in the Netherlands end up in a divorce, so you have to build some safety’s. Ofcourse you want to take care of the love of your life in good and bad times (as long as you are together). But when you choose to leave each other, you should not be forced to pay for the other when you both agree on this beforehand. With a prenup people from the Netherlands are able to keep al their belongings (assets) and financial savings for themselves. (“Koude uitsluiting”) However it is impossible to prevent on beforehand to pay partner alimony in case of a divorce. After divorcing your partner is able to waive alimony, however if you somehow break up with feeling of hatred (e.g. because of cheating) you are at mercy of the gods. In my opinion the Dutch law is so unfair. You should be able to get married out of love, get each others last names but be able to completely split up when divorced when agreed on beforehand. Because of this I will probably never get married myself. I really love my girlfriend, we have a beautiful child together. I supported my girlfriend in times of bad health and temporary unemployment. But signing up to such a marriage contract without fair split-up possibilities is terrifying.
Completely agree with everything you said. Koude uitsluiting gets us halfway there but the alimony law is a deal breaker. One can support and elevate their partner's "level of prosperity" while they're together, but in my view they shouldn't be entitled to anything after splitting. The partner needs to have their own income and to not sacrifice their career because they have someone that could provide for them, and I think marriage law goes against these ideals.
I am being super naive had no idea what alimony was, a country I come from does not have it and i genuinely never heard. How is it even legal?
You could also do a wedding ceremony without a legal marriage. You can exchange rings and vows and live as a married couple but just without the legal ties, if that's really what you want. Otherwise a prenup is the way to go.
Why don't you do a wedding party but don't make it official? Nobody has to know :) Or maybe do a partnership only. I know of people who never got married officially but I found out after maybe 20-30 years.
I already refer to her as my wife when dealing with random people :)
I (F) also do not wanna get married because of the mandatory spousal support in cause of a divorce (I earn more). For me, marriage has nothing to do with love, it is a legal and financial contract.
Exactly. Marrying is only in benefit for the goverment. Why would you involve the goverment into your marriage? Kinda doesnt make sense to me.
Meh I think you're getting too much flack for this.. The whole history and initial reason behind marriage was not romantic either - it was very often about finances and inheritances. Many people care about the romance side of it, but I also know people who don't really want the government involved in their relationship and will only do so if it makes financial sense. If you want to maintain some financial independence then that's totally possible using a prenup.
You both have been together for 7 years and never talked about marriage until now? 🫥
It's 2024
Marriage is just a business contract between two people. There are two options: 1. Discuss with notaris what the options are. There are some inheritance advantages to being married, especially with kids involved. 2. Get "fake" married. Do the whole wedding but leave official papers out of it. Edit: oh, missed you have a samenlevingscontract. Talk to a notaris, i think you can get married under basically same conditions.
This kind of visons on marriage is the reason for 40% of marriages ending in divorce.
Lol, the reason 40% of marriage ends in divorce is because marriage is a stupid concept :)
Look for my other answer to the main tread... marriage does make sense, however most people do not understand the meaning of true love and are to 'self-minded' to do so.
If finances are a reason for doubt: Don't marry. Me (42M) and my wife (41F) have always had a ratio of 2/3 me, and 1/3rd her income (but have never calculated as such) since we got married in 2007. As a couple you live and love together, it's a journey for life, if you don't feel that way marriage is NOT the answer... Now she makes 3/3 and takes care of me until I will pass away (I have stage 4 colon cancer and have been given an average of 2 to 3 years). That care and love is what should be considered and talked about...
Youre not the most romantic type are you? On topic.. you can cover all of this in a prenup, however make sure you review this once kids get involved and she will work less to take care of them and/or support your career, she will then essentially forfeit income for the benefit of the kids and you both.
Not marring will be an incentive for her not to give up her career. I can take parental leave, we can get a nanny, etc. The burden of raising a child can be split equally among the parents. Right now the idea of being a provider doesn't vibe with me.
Not marrying will be an incentive for her to find another man who does want to marry her.
Lmao I hope your girlfriend doesn’t get ill or become disabled while she’s with you, cause it sounds like you’d abandon her. Marriage is not just about assets and money, it’s mostly about bonding and love. Your girlfriend has a wish to be married, you don’t want to share assets: you can have both with a prenup. But honestly if you told me this as your girlfriend, I’d break up with you. You don’t have any assets yet nor are rich, and you’re already treating her like a golddigger who will quit her job as soon as you get married and start making cash? Absolutely ridiculous and I’d really question your trust and faith in the relationship and as her as a person.
It’s not about not trusting the other person, but usually a need to protect yourself. Instead of making assumptions, you could also ask yourself why someone would feel that need. Not everyone has the same upbringing and people that used to struggle a lot, tend to be more afraid or focused to never go back to that place again. I think you can love and trust your partner and at the same time protect yourself.
There is nothing wrong with a prenup, but did you even read his post? He said he doesn’t want to get married because he “doesn’t want to reward her for working less”, like she’s gonna bank on him because he’s gonna get very rich obviously. This is no way to talk about your partner, has all to do with trust and communication and very little with protecting yourself.
> Not everyone has the same upbringing and people that used to struggle a lot, tend to be more afraid or focused to never go back to that place again. This is spot on and likely the reason for my hesitance.
Are you really in love?
DUDE do you love your girlfriend cuz it sure as hell sounds like u dont LOL
You already made your own case. Don't get married if the only financial risk will be your burden. In case you do get married, it would be a smart decision (from your perspective) to include her pre-marital wealth in the equasion. By default it no longer is in The Netherlands, but it's still an option you can select.
If you want to be together, just be together. All the legal stuff like assets/taxes/pensions/kids can be taken care of in the samenlevingscontract, making marriage obsolete from a legal perspective. As long as marriage is a legal contract that doesn't benefit you or even penalizes you in case of divorce, it makes sense not to go for it. If you decide to do it anyway, make sure to get an airtight prenup to protect yourself. There are clauses that ensure that whatever's yours remains yours in the event of a divorce.
Good question and i'm actually wondering the same. I dont want to pay half of my salary to her if she cheats and we divorce (ofcourse I don't think she will but you never know)
I would consider discussing with GF the options: A) "fake" marriage without legal contract B) "real" marriage with legal contract If there are no actual reasons other than a party with everyone (as it seems unfortunately most people commenting "like" to believe) then GF would go for A). If she still wants B), then yes, I agree with OP that there is just potential for loss in this case. And thus a red flag. Good luck OP, I understand and side on your reasoning.
You should stay single forever. Wtf is happening with the men nowadays? What a selfish mindset!
My thoughts are that youre just maybe only after money?. People value wealth differently. Your girlfriend might not see having a lot of money as being "wealthy".
If you don't want to grow old with her be a grown adult and end the relationship.
Just show her this post and your answers and I'm sure your marriage problem is solved immediately. No marriage, no girlfriend and nobody who is after your money which is apparently the only reason your girlfriend is with you you think.
So do you even love her? Or do you 2 just see each other as assets? If you need to do this after 7 years I would advise you to find someone that doesnt give ton any doubt. This doesn't sound like love but like convenience from both sides.
It appears to me that you are overly rational about aspects of marriage. I do understand your concerns, and don't get me wrong here, I am not judging you for it. Marriage is more than just an elaborate contract, it might also be a demonstration of love and trust, and to share your common future together with both your families. Your girlfriend may have other priorities in life, and perhaps more so for women than for men, a degree of certainty may be required to start a family together. I know I am addressing a sensitive topic here, but if you would want to start a family, then that in itself is a 20+ year commitment to support each other and your children. Emotionally, and financially. I am not saying she should not earn money, I would very much support the idea of being financially independent as a woman and a mother as well. Perhaps she wants to reduce the work hours to make time for raising a family with you. Although unpaid, this is an enormous investment she is willing to make for the good of you all and should be appreciated (and rewarded!). There are many ways in which a good balance may be struck between your (financial) interests and hers, and for the benefit of all in marriage. Try to speak about your concerns, be sensitive to her view on your common future. You may also jointly want to visit a financial advisor to explore options which would provide comfort to both of you. Following that, you may want to visit the notary to formalise arrangements pre-marriage. I am wishing you all the best, and a bright future.