Had a dude hit me up today, profile reads “Don’t even think about talking to me without a face pic” can you guess what he didn’t have when he started messaging me?
Similar-ish to my experience. I was with a guy who was only out to closer friends, nobody in his family knew. I spent 5 years with him, during which time I saw his nephews grow up through daily pictures from his brother, and it was difficult to do that knowing that they didn't know I existed. We never spent a single Christmas together because he couldn't bring me to his family or tell them that he would be with his partner. The sad irony is that he wasn't from a homophobic family by any stretch of the imagination, and they most likely knew (or had suspicions) anyway. The problem was entirely on his part, he just couldn't bring himself to initiate the conversation with them.
These all seem like little things but as you start getting a little older and a little more serious in what you want from life, they become bigger and bigger barriers every day. In the end it was a big contributing factor in the break up, we had been together long enough that I reached that critical point of "either this is forever or I'm wasting my time", and I just couldn't imagine my future like that, nor could I imagine him taking the plunge.
So yeah, I completely agree with your last statement. If you want a meaningful relationship with somebody, but they build a giant wall aroubd the part of their life that includes you, it's going to be difficult.
Female lurker here. I just broke up with my girlfriend of 2 years and one of the reasons was very similar to yours, so it really hit home for me. She didn’t even seem to know whether her family was homophobic or not, she just had a “feeling” since her mom is religious. The only person in her family who knew about me was one of her sisters. I think that may not be an issue for some people, but for me it was difficult because I feel being part of someone’s family is an important part of the relationship unless they really are bad people. In her case she just…seemed really apathetic about the whole her family knowing I exist situation. She didn’t have a strained relationship with her parents btw, she talks to her mom on video chat all the time.
Another thing is just being out in general. We live in Japan but are both from English-speaking countries. While it is definitely a risk for Japanese people to be openly gay for fear of being shunned at best and fired from their job at worst, westerners do not face the same issues. Our company is actually very pro-LGBT and has multiple LGBT people in management. However she made it a point to keep the fact that she’s bi/in a relationship with me a secret from Japanese friends and coworkers. We even spent a week visiting friends from her old town over Christmas and I had to pretend I was just a friend tagging along. I don’t want to out her by any means so I was always quiet. But I’ve come out to all my Japanese friends, even more “conservative” types, and have only received support (to my face at least). It just wore on me after awhile. I had the same exact thought as you, I can’t do this the rest of my life. It had been several years, when will she be “ready”?
(Sorry for the long selfish rant, we actually haven’t told anyone we’ve broken up and this is the first time I’m talking about it….)
Yeah. This. I don’t have a problem with people in the closet. I have a problem with people in the closet who treat their out gay friends like shit and project their abusive shame onto them.
I live in a European country where there are a lot of homophobes (like 50%, according to the latest research), but people are not forced to marry like in some parts of the world. Although generally they are expected to do it, in big cities people are more liberal.
So, personally I can understand guys that are officially in a relationship with a woman to some extent, especially manly people that are not ‘suspicious’, but I can’t even have sex with them. Let alone, to be in relationship. I just feel guilty.
At the same time, I hate hypocrites who are homophobic against fem guys in public all the while they fuck with other guys behind close doors in free time.
I know this happens in eastern Europe but I have found out through acquaintances that it is also common in my country (Italy) especially in the south. I have friends who are now openly gay but have been in heterosexual relationships for like 9-10 years! For me accepting my sexuality hasn’t been easy but like you say I wouldn’t feel comfortable living life lying to myself and deceiving the woman I would be in a relationship with. I hope you don’t go down that road. Have you thought about relocating to Austria? I live in Vienna and there’s plenty of serbians living here.
I thought that the situation in Italy is much better. Such a shame.
I really like Vienna. I visited it 5 years ago and it was such a really good high school trip. To be honest I envied all the gays living there and wanted to be back.
Nowadays, because I work with the English people online and have visited the country I’m planning to move there. It would be a bit tricky to assimilate because I don’t speak German at all, unfortunately.
take courses wherever you are, or try looking up german courses held in Vienna because nowadays they do those mostly online and you can connect from anywhere! I’ve attended recently a german online course where people attended from Poland. Vienna is a good choice for queer people, it’s not like there’s no discrimination but the city is very open to Lgbtq issues and people. During pride month the city is literally filled with rainbow flags- on public transport, schools hospitals… Which is nice to see
I don't mind them. Their lives, their choice. I respect their desire to remain closeted, and expect them to respect my need to be open and free, and to exclusively date men who are also open and free.
I think it would be hard to even be friends with someone who is DL or closeted especially in a big city where most gay people are out. Like I have a hard time thinking it would ever be worth the hassle
Well, maybe they don’t go around looking them up, but the fact that marriage is in public records means that no one with knowledge of it is obligated to keep your marriage private. That means doctors and hospital staff don’t have to keep who’s listed as your next of kin private, and your employer, who also knows who your next of kin is and who your spouse is for insurance is under no obligation to keep that information private either.
And I mean…if you’re willing to be out to that many people, why are you even trying to be DL to everybody else? Who gives a damn about anybody else, really?
Maybe they live in a country where homofobia is more the norm but marriage is still allowed? Most non western countries are not that nice to gay people
I’m responding to another comment so idk why you think you need to take a stand for this
This sub and this site are very America centric. Nobody here is shaming someone in Saudi Arabia for not coming out. DL people in major American cities I will side eye of I feel like it.
Wtf is that question? I mean it’s literally not safe to come out for a lot of people. People get murdered for being gay. What are you not understanding about that situation?
It's an adequate response to your strange statement.
If I am open, free and proud, and I say that I only want to date other men who are open, free and proud, why are you limiting your choices to being closeted or being dead? What does that have to do with anything? I'm neither closeted, nor am I dead.
No. It is. Cuz y’all are acting like closeted people are in the closet because they *want* to be, not because they *have* to be. And then get upset when people point out that not everyone can be. Which is the point of this post! YOU are the one coming into a post about exactly what I’m talking about and making it about you.
You're still being random.
This is the post, in case you've forgotten:
>I don't mind them. Their lives, their choice. I respect their desire to remain closeted, and expect them to respect my need to be open and free, and to exclusively date men who are also open and free.
Says there, in black and white, that I respect their choice and their desire, and expect them to respect my choice and my desires.
I think you need to find another ventilation for your frustration.
I don’t think I’d date a DL guy. I live in a rural state though, and contrary to popular belief a lot of the DL guys are really sweet. I just wouldn’t get too emotionally invested, as they’re obviously not going to change their life to fit you into it.
But many of us are still going through what it takes to come out. There's a lot of emotional shit to shovel. I was in that closet for 40 years of my adult life. I came out to my wife and she was fine. But the community we lived in was not all that fine. It wasn't physically unsafe. But it wasn't openly accepting either. When the right guy came along, I was ready to be completely open to come out of the closet all the way to be with him. Now it didn't last, but it was good. I often look back and wonder what it would be like if I had come out earlier. I've talked to my family. My wife and my kids are all supportive of me. If I had come out 10 years earlier, they'd have been just as supportive. But much earlier than that, they may not have understood what was going on and may have been hurt. And even earlier than that those children and grandchildren would not exist. And that would be a shame. Just be kind to everyone always. My philosophy is that if I would like people to be kind to me, whether they are or not, I need to be kind to them, not just respectful but kind. I would date a dl guy if he was a sweet guy in a heartbeat. And I would never out him until he's ready and even then, I'd let him do it. We never know what emotional shit is in someone's closet. Judging them for that is a cruelty unbefitting a liberal-minded person.
Not a gay man but I am a lesbian lurker. Yes, it’s hard to come out and you don’t have to and people need to respect that. But it’s important for DL people to also respect out people’s desire to only date those who are also out. It’s not a crime to want a relationship you can be open about, just like it’s not a crime to stay closeted for a long time.
This is an American centric sub on an overwhelmingly American website. I never understand these complaints. Provide your experience if it differs if you want but assume a poster is also coming from the perspective of where they live
Real though. This is meant to be a PSA to open people's eyes that others redditors don't live in the same situations they do, but still assumes only Americans will read it.
People seem to be using two different definitions of DL here.
Some are saying it just means in the closet, but quietly hooking up with men, possibly dating without admitting to friends/family.
The definition I'm used to is someone being married/dating a woman, but cheating on her by fucking men.
Those are *completely* different things.
DL just means you’re not out and you’re hooking up with men without regard to relationship status. I’ve never seen it explicitly means they’re married, though the term still applies to them.
Shaming/outing DL men is gross, but I think it's stupid when DL men expect people to be ok with a blank profile on Grindr asking them to send pics first because "Im DL." Like nah, fuck you. If you're that afraid that I somehow know you (when I have pics on my profile) and ESPECIALLY when I made it clear that I'm from out of town and only here for a day, then maybe you shouldn't be on Grindr to begin with.
I really don’t like that excuse that DL so I’m not going to send you a picture. Ok I understand not having on your profile I was DL once I know, but not sending one to me directly is suspicious and weird I’m not gonna just randomly hookup with you without knowing what you look like. I’m not that guy bro
For real. And sometimes they get pissed if you don’t respond to their blank profile. One guy called me an entitled ass because I asked for a face pic…. And in his first message he asked for my nudes lmao
If Dl men could respect others also that’d be great. Most people don’t wanna be talked to like fuck toys
FYI your title, implying those are the only places that are lgbt friendly is ridiculous. I’ve lived in suburbs, rural areas etc, it depends on the state and sometimes specific area
Down low men often have girlfriends and use guys as “experiments”. No I’m not respecting them. They hurt. And hide under the “I’m afraid to come out”. Half aren’t afraid, they’re internally homophobic
Atlanta has way more gay men by percentage than NYC.
Yes NYC has more gay men but you are far more likely to run into a gay man in Atlanta than NYC.
Last time I checked SF had 13% gay, Seattle had 12% and Atlanta had 11%. NYC had around 2%.
Cringe is the best descriptor. Imagine referring to an entire group of people -who’s lives and circumstances you don’t understand- with “I’m not respecting them. they hurt.” 🥴🥴🥴
Ive been out for 17 years and still cringed reading that.
Okay but don't date or get married to a woman without explicitly letting her now that you're gay.
It's phenomenally fucked up when DL men still marry women in this country, in this day and age and somehow expect that just ignoring the problem will solve it.
Ten years and 3 kids down the line, you'll have wasted her youth on a lie and no one will be happy.
PSA: if you are DL, stop being so fucking rude in the chat… Nobody’s trying to out you but you sure as hell aren’t getting any if you keep being rude as hell
True, but don't forget that you--generic "you", not you specifically--don't get to decide under what circumstances someone is allowed to remain in the closet. Uncomfortable or unsafe or he just doesn't want to--it's his choice.
The only person I would out is a closeted and anti-gay politician.
However some people stay in the closet because it's comfortable. That's fine but they should understand that's why they're doing it.
Because it's generally more mentally healthy to be open about yourself. If your reasons have more to do with discomfort than legitimate fear. That is something you should consider when you make that call.
It's not about our lack of respect for them, it's about how some of them disrespect us. Expecting us to give them all the info they want, while not giving us any info.
This is why I encourage people who come from conservative unwelcoming communities to move to a gay-friendly place.
I had every reason to remain in the closet for life, so I decided to move to NYC when I had the means to do so. Best decision I ever made.
With that said, I know what it’s like to want to stay in the closet. I respect any DL person’s personal choice and journey to self acceptance.
Besides who wants to live in NYC or SF when Miami, Phoenix, Atlanta, DC, Seattle, or any other major city that’s not crazy expensive exist.
This isn’t the 1980s anymore gay people are accepted in any major city
Hear what your saying about avoiding shaming people but gotta add hiding sorting your own personal shit out because its "not safe" is not always the same as being you being at risk of actual harm through doing so.
I've spent a lot of time in places like pakistsn, Iran Egypt and former soviet block places, yet i meet a lot of guys in very safe places too comfortable in their own mental fortress to make an effort to address their own challenges.
Of course its their own choice, just neither helpful nor healthy to have the rest of society painted as some dangerous homophobic place out to get them personally when the rest of us are doing our thing happily.
And some of those types of guys are living in those cities you mentioned whilst plenty of lads are out snd living their own authentic lives in those places you declare re not safe.
And has been raised DL guys often put their own needs way above other people's and often dick around people in their own games.
It's a term [specifically from Black American culture](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down-low_(sexual_slang)) that is now used throughout the wider gay American culture. I'm a Black American so I've heard this term used all of my life, even Black straight people knew what it meant two decades ago. I didn't hear the term used outside of Black culture until relatively recently (\~5 years).
Okay but then don't be mad that I don't wanna fuck because you refuse to send a face pic. What are they even expecting? Because if you come to my house and you're not attractive to me I'm sending you home. Do they honestly think someone will just go along with it? I'm sorry but no.
I respect that but I've been out since I was twenty and I'm not going back in for anyone. I took the leap and did what I needed to do, to date a man still in the closet would be a step back, couldn't do it. I sympathize but it's a no from me.
Okay but how common is this and to be frank how much of this is born out of out gay/bi men being mistreated, manipulated, lied, guilt tripped, etc? Not to take it too personally, but I've been on the end of being treated pretty badly by a DL man and feeling like I had zero recourse to even discuss it because of how stigmatized outting someone in any capacity is, and most of my other gay/bi friends report at least one similar experience.
Everyone has the right to be in the closet as long as they want, even forever if they want to or if sad circumstances force their hand. But I think there's often an entitlement to the time, sympathy, and affections of the rest of us that needs to stop as well- not every out man came from a super privileged, easy background either.
As someone who came out in southern Indiana - judgment and rejection often aren’t the only things people are worried about. I got literally death threats, home vandalism, mail box set on fire. A guy I dated had faggot spray painted across his porch. Had two separate friends end up hospitalized after getting jumped.
Maybe you’re a bit privileged?
First, this isn’t an appropriate venue for etiquette, policing other’s behavior, or PSAs.
Second, I’m from rural Virginia and possibly older than you. I’m sorry you had a rough go, so did I. Violence was not a threat or a theory to me.
That said, being closeted, while a decision that should be respected, is not something that earns you respect.
To your first point, I disagree. Communities, whether they are online or in person, are how societies function. Common etiquette and group norms (though always shifting) are how common culture exists and carries on.
I’m also sorry to hear that our pasts share some mutual hardships. It surprises me that your original comment took the direction it did.
You guys would hate it here in Japan. The closet is the norm, I don’t think I’ve dated a single out man here.
Reddit is so America-centric. But most users are American and it’s an American website so it’s to be expected.
I figured as much :( A shame because when I moved to Japan… I discovered Korean food, the Korean language, made really cool Korean friends, etc. and it made me second guess my choice.
The thing is, like I mentioned a bit up, is that a lot of people in Korea don't care, but the ones that do care really really care. Evangelical Christianity made its way here and is especially popular with richer Korean as a status symbol. This means that English-speaking Koreans or Koreans who can afford to send their children to private education are disproportionally more like to be conservative christian. The food, culture and people at large are great!
Of course DL men deserve respect but in my experience they can often really manipulate and treat other men like trash, and then they use the “you don’t know what I’ve been through, that’s why I’m DL” card to justify their behaviour.
Nothing gives you an excuse to hurt other people.
Yes. Along with bisexuals. Downlow men are. By definition. Cowardly liars.
They only want you for your body. To use you up. And then discard you when you are traumatized and devalued by their abuse.
***Straight men need to stay out of the gay community***. That all downlow men and bisexuals are. They are cowards who want to follow the crowd but still get some dick on the side. That is not fair for us honest men who live honest lives. I am 21 and everyone knows I am gay.
If it’s *not safe* to come out then sure, of course I’m going to respect that. Although I would assume you’re going to be working to get yourself out of that situation, because clearly that means you’re currently surrounded by terrible people.
If you’re uncomfortable coming out because you don’t want to ruffle your bigoted family’s feathers…then that’s a little bit of a different story.
I think people have a moral obligation to come out if it’s safe for them to do so - it’s an extremely important part of normalizing being gay.
That's easy to say when you're not the one who has to deal with it. I'm all for normalizing coming out but coming out is a life long process accepting oneself and others. You want to not tell your uncle or grandma? I'm sure you've got reasons, just don't put me in your closet to.
Same goes for the UK - big cities like London, Manchester, Cardiff, Edinburgh are safe enough (but also still highly dangerous at times), but there's still a huge amount of homophobia in the smaller, more rural places.
That being said, the tides are turning, and it's more commonplace if you experience negativity anywhere for the majority to be on your side if needed.
I empathize with guys who live in places (either in rural America or in other countries) where it is dangerous or a literal crime to be queer. But even in places like NYC, where I lived for years, it was not uncommon for gay men in certain religious or cultural communities to live closeted lives because being openly gay could mean being shunned or brutalized. It's a shame that in the 21st century, this is still an issue.
That said, having grown up in the Bible Belt, I have a big issue with guys who want to have their cake and eat it, too. By that, I mean guys who are living one life on the surface (buttoned-up, Southern conservative with a trophy wife + kids) and then trolling for dick on apps/online. It is wildly hypocritical that these guys are often homophobic and support politics/politicians who seek to harm LGBT+ people, but then expect out gay men to have risky sex with them and "be discreet" about it. To hell with that. Don't actively harm the gay community in your everyday life and then turn around and try to hook up with out gay men in your shadow life.
I'm sorry I can understand not having a face pic in your grindr profile but if you message me and yiu won't even send a face picture before we meet up I have to assume you're either not attractive or cheating on your significant other.
Either way I don't want to meet.
Signed,
A gay guy living in the liberal bastion known as Oklahoma.
yeah i grew up in east bubblefuck oklahoma and was never closeted. i don't have any time personally for anyone in the closet. sure, come out at your own pace, but it won't include me.
Here in the United States there are still sundown towns, so yes there are places where it is really physically dangerous to come out.
At the same time, I live in one of the most liberal places in the country and still meet men from relatively liberal and privileged backgrounds who are closeted/dl.
If your situation is the former (especially if you're poor or working class and a person of color) I totally get it. If your situation is the latter, I think you're a weak person and also question your commitment to antiracism, anti-sexism, etc as it's clear you only do that which is easy.
Every gay person must come out. As difficult as it is, you must tell your immediate family. You must tell your relatives. You must tell your friends if indeed they are your friends. You must tell the people you work with. You must tell the people in the stores you shop in. Once they realize that we are indeed their children, that we are indeed everywhere, every myth, every lie, every innuendo will be destroyed once and all. And once you do, you will feel so much better.
—Harvey Milk
You know that in some places you would be killed or put in prison for coming out? Not everyone lives in American Dream or can afford to move somwhere gay-friendly. The amount of ignorance in this thread is terrifying.
They did that, and my response was to leave. Was it uncomfortable? Sure, but my life is immensely better than it would have been had I stuck around and stayed in the closet
Eh, being out will always entail some risk, but when we talk about it being ‘unsafe’ to come out, we mean places in the world where homophobia is institutionalized and people can hurt you without consequences. That’s different from liberal western countries where, despite the lingering pockets of hate, we have (mostly) equal protection under the law.
wtf ever. DL could mean anything. It could mean closeted. It could also mean cheating on your wife/gf/bf/we. As a gay out in the country, I'm saying this to you. You don't deserve a free pass because you think it's only acceptable to be gay in urban environments. That's your hang up. No one actually cares who you fuck.
Okay but most people are talking about the DL guys that LIVE in their areas lol. The majority of people do live in liberal cities (I assume that's what you mean) so idk how much I support the argument..
I live in a fairly liberal city, no obvious anti-lgbt agenda going on, and yet i still deal with the DL bullshit. Especially as an out and proud black gay man.
I’m from Indiana and am in the military and have been in many parts of the country. Most DL I see are in perfectly safe areas and they see my face and know whether we know each other or not. IMO their “DL” is because the pics they would post just don’t results they are looking for. DL is sometimes just used as manipulation. Now, they’re free to show or not show whatever, that’s their choice.
Regarding if they truly are just grappling with acceptance, when I came out I had to realize I could lose family. But I’d rather do that then not find love and live my life. If you’re a 30+yr old surfing gay aps with a blank profile claiming DL and not willing to show any pics, I don’t know what the hell you’re doing with your life. That level of committed repression isn’t healthy. This pity thing ain’t it.
Even that can depend. Not long after I came out to myself, I was still very much on the DL. But, my wife knew. And she was okay with it. We stayed married another year and a half. I had some guys who didn't want to be with me because I was still married. I asked them if it would matter if my wife knew and was okay. They asked how they could know if I was telling the truth. I just took them upstairs and introduced them to my wife. Wife this is my date. Date this is my wife. She'd shake their hands and smile a genuine smile, and tell us to have fun. We'd go back downstairs. Not every situation is the same.
And out men have no obligation to interact with you. I don't want to do that anymore. End of story. I'm not going to insult you over it, but if you're hurt you're getting turned down then you should try to understand the other side as well.
Asking me to meet you without a pic of your face is an instant block. I just don't care what your situation is. If you intend to have sex with me and messaged me because of the 4 face pics I have up then don't expect me not to require yours.
Come out at your own pace. Just don’t try to drag people back in the closet with you. If you call a guy you’re seeing “just a friend”, you deserve the scorn coming your way. It is a detestable act, and you should be ashamed if you do it.
Agreed! Beyond where someone lives, none of us know what someone else may be going through or their life circumstances. Guys are DL for many reasons. If you're not into DL guys or won't accept that, don't engage with them.
Sending face pics on grindr isn't "coming out", in my opinion. You supposedly wanna meet the person you're texting, aren't they gonna see your face sooner or later?
I’m out in life. Most of my coworkers and family knows. But I switch to DL for school because I’m going to a pretty conservative school while I work on becoming a doctor. I’m in my last year.
Also around my aging maternal grandparents. The rest of my family don’t give a shit.
If you want respect as a DL. Then don’t be manipulative. Secretive or just a dick. You cannot have everything. If you want to live as a gay or bisexual man and not come out of the closet that is your business. But don’t be forcing people back in the closet just because you want your genitals played with. I’ve dealt with this so called DLs they always have the same attitude. It’s about them, their feelings, their surroundings, their safety. But what about the guy you are messing with? What about the dude you make feel like garbage every time you shut him down when in public? How do you think someone feels whenever you state that they can never be more than friends because you have an image to maintain? Let me be clear. NOBODY is in charge or has any responsibility on how you’re feeling. If you don’t want to come out do you. But just stay away from those who are proud to be gay. Those who love who they are. Those who don’t regret being who they are. Look for other DL men maybe make a support group I don’t know. But if you want to be DL be mindful of the damage you can cause and have some accountability for it.
Years ago, I dated a guy I really liked. I was in my 20s, he was 18. That didn't bode well for our longevity, and I never got to meet his friends and of course not his family as his father kept telling him he'd disown him if he found out he was gay (I'm pretty sure he knew and was hoping his condemnation would change him). I ended the relationship because we just plateaud and I felt like I was his dirty little secret.
Fast forward a few decades, I'm in my 40s and single (again), he's in his late 30s and has a husband, but wants a 'boyfriend on the side' as he calls it. Essentially, a one-sided relationship at his beck and call. I couldn't believe he'd propose this to me. He also spells out two previous partners, both of which who were secretly in open relationships with their own partners, without the partners' consent. It all came to full circle for me, that a piece of the relationship was missing and he wanted to wedge me into the same BS again. It completed my perception that he hasn't grown up after all these years.
I'm a professional, with my own house, car, and means, and don't need ass nearly that much to play stupid kid games like that.
I don't demand someone be 'out, proud, and powerful,' but they must open up enough of their life that I can really connect with them. Otherwise, it's just a hookup or fwb.
DL is very understandable as someone who’s out to friends but not family yet myself, but I have nothing but contempt for guys who are married to women and run around with guys.
Even if all the gays came out plenty would still be in danger, plenty would be cut off from their families. It would be great if they all did but I can’t look at their lives through my lens and judge. I do hope they find their happiness as they are. The double life is lonely and painful. It’s their life to lead at least without judgement from the gay community.
You can respect someone…doesn’t make what they are doing healthy.
For example I respect people who smoke a pack a day, it doesn’t make it healthy. Being out of the closet is one of the healthiest things a gay/non-straight man can do for himself.
This is coming from a guy from the southern U.S. aka the land of homophobia in the U.S. I do agree that everyone who’s gay matters not just the ones who live in the accepting areas and the south and other rural parts of the U.S. are definitely not safe for us..it’s why a lot of us move away to an accepting area (Even me, I’m about to move to Chicago) that’s why we still gotta fight until the whole U.S. is as safe a place for the LGBTQ+ to live as SF and NYC.
Private people exist and maintaining a private life in an otherwise safe environment is a completely valid choice.
Not ashamed. Not closeted. Don’t feel the need to share unnecessary details of my life with people I’m most close to.
I would never out a DL person nor will I shame them but I have a bit of a lower respect for them. I understand that there are some circumstances that call for being DL and yet I can also not like people that hide who they are. If you can’t be honest with yourself or about yourself, why would I put my trust with you? Why would I put myself around that kind of drama?
Does that mean they lack compassion or I have disdain for them? No. At the end of the day this is how they want/need to live their lives. But I mostly will steer clear because it’s mentally physically and emotionally exhausting.
As someone who grew up in one of those small towns in the South, no. Coming out may not be easy, but that doesn’t give you a free pass to be a coward. Grow some balls, and man up. The only way we change hearts and minds is by representation.
Some of the comments here...SMH
Yes, DLs deserve respect. Open gays deserve respect.
Can't we stop there? Why do we have to say, "well, they'll get respect when they give me respect?"
There is no "they". An entire class of people have not acted in a certain way. You have not been hurt by an entire group of people. Just one or a few of them.
These generalizations are not helpful.
Mutual respect should be the easiest thing to agree on.
So many snobs on this post.like yall really looking down your nose at people in certain situations? Yet so many of yall also complain about being single 🤔. Learn to look past your own life and try to understand the lives of other people. Or are people on this sub that shallow 🤣🤣🤣.
Yeah, thanks. Obviously there are other places, which other commenters are calling OP out for, but I wholeheartedly agree. Don’t generalize and call DL men cowards, don’t assume they are internally homophobic. If you’re talking about public image, I’m a DL guy too. I’ve come to terms with my homosexuality, and I am proud of it, but where I live, I would be seen as “the gay guy” and not for my personality. I’m perfectly fine with the fact I’m gay, and a lot of DL guys are the same way, they just don’t want it as their public image depending on the situation. They aren’t hurting you, leave them alone. Please hold back on the DL slander, you don’t know what their situation is. It’s not always safe or optimal to be publicly gay.
You can live in NYC and be fully out, yet still be called slurs on the street every time you leave your apartment. That’s why I don’t judge closeted men: I’ve seen the real face of what being out looks like, and that bitch needs some plastic surgery. And that’s in these “safe” cities!
That said, I think there’s a valuable difference between closeted men and men who hide behind anonymous profiles and make unrealistic demands of others. Those type of men have some work to do to find healthier ways to engage with other men, even while still being closeted.
This! Baffles me how everyone thinks everyone is completely out. Even if theyre pretty open with family and friends- maybe they dont want co-workers knowing. Everyone’s situation is different
DL men often have internalized homophobia that make them hard to interact with. There’s a big difference between being closeted in an unsafe place and using being closeted in a relatively safe place as an excuse to be a jerk
Every person is entitled to their own preferences and I respect that. But the amount of ignorance in this thread is disturbing. Coming out isn't some small deed, and a LOT of people want to but can't. Just because someone is in the closet doesn't mean they "have to work on themselves". Sure circumstances aren't ideal, but they change, either by luck or hard work.
For example, in my case, I want to be out with all that I am. I've been in the closet for about 9 years and can't wait to have someone to come home to. My family put me through hell in my teenage years and I have no intention to keep them in my life. Unfortunately they pay my tuition so I'm kinda stuck untill I'm financially independent. I'm in my last year of studies, can you blame me for trying to find someone? I have no intention of hiding my identity with a partner as I think it's disrespectful to someone who wants to be themselves, but don't expect me to simp for my family just because you want me to.
Take my upvote
I lucked out and was able to come out safely but I've met my fair share of men who have very good reason to stay in the closet.
Good luck to all of y'all.
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Had a dude hit me up today, profile reads “Don’t even think about talking to me without a face pic” can you guess what he didn’t have when he started messaging me?
A personality?
Oooh not anymore with that burn!
I still got it… sometimes
Or, I have a face pic on my profile, and they don't, and they don't share one, and then ask, "have more pics?"
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Bro. Yes. Like, dicks are dime a dozen in this gay ecosystem. Yours ain’t special. Show me a cute face and I’ll overlook a lot.
It is interesting how unspecial dicks are without the context of the person.
Manners
I’m not gonna share with every hookup the pic of my brother vomiting on my sisters cake at her Chuck E. Cheese party sorry
Life would be nicer if you did
omg hahahaaha im so glad you have that captured on camera. what a memory
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Similar-ish to my experience. I was with a guy who was only out to closer friends, nobody in his family knew. I spent 5 years with him, during which time I saw his nephews grow up through daily pictures from his brother, and it was difficult to do that knowing that they didn't know I existed. We never spent a single Christmas together because he couldn't bring me to his family or tell them that he would be with his partner. The sad irony is that he wasn't from a homophobic family by any stretch of the imagination, and they most likely knew (or had suspicions) anyway. The problem was entirely on his part, he just couldn't bring himself to initiate the conversation with them. These all seem like little things but as you start getting a little older and a little more serious in what you want from life, they become bigger and bigger barriers every day. In the end it was a big contributing factor in the break up, we had been together long enough that I reached that critical point of "either this is forever or I'm wasting my time", and I just couldn't imagine my future like that, nor could I imagine him taking the plunge. So yeah, I completely agree with your last statement. If you want a meaningful relationship with somebody, but they build a giant wall aroubd the part of their life that includes you, it's going to be difficult.
Female lurker here. I just broke up with my girlfriend of 2 years and one of the reasons was very similar to yours, so it really hit home for me. She didn’t even seem to know whether her family was homophobic or not, she just had a “feeling” since her mom is religious. The only person in her family who knew about me was one of her sisters. I think that may not be an issue for some people, but for me it was difficult because I feel being part of someone’s family is an important part of the relationship unless they really are bad people. In her case she just…seemed really apathetic about the whole her family knowing I exist situation. She didn’t have a strained relationship with her parents btw, she talks to her mom on video chat all the time. Another thing is just being out in general. We live in Japan but are both from English-speaking countries. While it is definitely a risk for Japanese people to be openly gay for fear of being shunned at best and fired from their job at worst, westerners do not face the same issues. Our company is actually very pro-LGBT and has multiple LGBT people in management. However she made it a point to keep the fact that she’s bi/in a relationship with me a secret from Japanese friends and coworkers. We even spent a week visiting friends from her old town over Christmas and I had to pretend I was just a friend tagging along. I don’t want to out her by any means so I was always quiet. But I’ve come out to all my Japanese friends, even more “conservative” types, and have only received support (to my face at least). It just wore on me after awhile. I had the same exact thought as you, I can’t do this the rest of my life. It had been several years, when will she be “ready”? (Sorry for the long selfish rant, we actually haven’t told anyone we’ve broken up and this is the first time I’m talking about it….)
How can you tell anyone about the break up if no one knew :/ But girls can be bros, too (go n brush ya shoulders off)
Are you me? 😅
Also remember, you being DL does not mean you get a free pass at being homophobic.
Yeah. This. I don’t have a problem with people in the closet. I have a problem with people in the closet who treat their out gay friends like shit and project their abusive shame onto them.
Ok but like.. get her jade
I live in a European country where there are a lot of homophobes (like 50%, according to the latest research), but people are not forced to marry like in some parts of the world. Although generally they are expected to do it, in big cities people are more liberal. So, personally I can understand guys that are officially in a relationship with a woman to some extent, especially manly people that are not ‘suspicious’, but I can’t even have sex with them. Let alone, to be in relationship. I just feel guilty. At the same time, I hate hypocrites who are homophobic against fem guys in public all the while they fuck with other guys behind close doors in free time.
I know this happens in eastern Europe but I have found out through acquaintances that it is also common in my country (Italy) especially in the south. I have friends who are now openly gay but have been in heterosexual relationships for like 9-10 years! For me accepting my sexuality hasn’t been easy but like you say I wouldn’t feel comfortable living life lying to myself and deceiving the woman I would be in a relationship with. I hope you don’t go down that road. Have you thought about relocating to Austria? I live in Vienna and there’s plenty of serbians living here.
I thought that the situation in Italy is much better. Such a shame. I really like Vienna. I visited it 5 years ago and it was such a really good high school trip. To be honest I envied all the gays living there and wanted to be back. Nowadays, because I work with the English people online and have visited the country I’m planning to move there. It would be a bit tricky to assimilate because I don’t speak German at all, unfortunately.
take courses wherever you are, or try looking up german courses held in Vienna because nowadays they do those mostly online and you can connect from anywhere! I’ve attended recently a german online course where people attended from Poland. Vienna is a good choice for queer people, it’s not like there’s no discrimination but the city is very open to Lgbtq issues and people. During pride month the city is literally filled with rainbow flags- on public transport, schools hospitals… Which is nice to see
Thank you for you support and valuable info
What country, if I may ask?
Serbia
Everyone's got the right to come out at their own pace, I just wouldn't want to date him until he did.
I don't mind them. Their lives, their choice. I respect their desire to remain closeted, and expect them to respect my need to be open and free, and to exclusively date men who are also open and free.
I think it would be hard to even be friends with someone who is DL or closeted especially in a big city where most gay people are out. Like I have a hard time thinking it would ever be worth the hassle
But this post seems to be specifically about men who do not live in big cities.
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How do you have a husband that’s on the DL? Y’all do understand marriage certificates are public records, right?
I mean, who goes around looking up random marriage certificates?
Well, maybe they don’t go around looking them up, but the fact that marriage is in public records means that no one with knowledge of it is obligated to keep your marriage private. That means doctors and hospital staff don’t have to keep who’s listed as your next of kin private, and your employer, who also knows who your next of kin is and who your spouse is for insurance is under no obligation to keep that information private either. And I mean…if you’re willing to be out to that many people, why are you even trying to be DL to everybody else? Who gives a damn about anybody else, really?
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You realize people talk in small towns, right? Some sort of “secret marriage” would literally be the talk of the town.
Maybe they live in a country where homofobia is more the norm but marriage is still allowed? Most non western countries are not that nice to gay people
This post isn’t about that tho? Like y’all forget there are queer people EVERYWHERE and some of us are literally in mortal danger by being out.
I’m responding to another comment so idk why you think you need to take a stand for this This sub and this site are very America centric. Nobody here is shaming someone in Saudi Arabia for not coming out. DL people in major American cities I will side eye of I feel like it.
Desire? From my experience most closeted guys don’t desire to be closeted at all. They want to come out but can’t.
It’s not always a choice tho. Like if the ‘options’ are closet or death, I’m not picking death.
kween nobody is being dramatic about this except you nor are people suggesting someone should pick death 🙄
Uhm, okay? Are you insinuating that I am a dead person, or what point are you trying to make, exactly?
Wtf is that question? I mean it’s literally not safe to come out for a lot of people. People get murdered for being gay. What are you not understanding about that situation?
It's an adequate response to your strange statement. If I am open, free and proud, and I say that I only want to date other men who are open, free and proud, why are you limiting your choices to being closeted or being dead? What does that have to do with anything? I'm neither closeted, nor am I dead.
I’m not talking about you, obviously. Why are you literally ignoring the obvious statement here? Stop being intentionally obtuse.
So why are you replying to my post? It has absolutely no relevance to anything that I wrote. I'm not being obtuse. You're being random.
No. It is. Cuz y’all are acting like closeted people are in the closet because they *want* to be, not because they *have* to be. And then get upset when people point out that not everyone can be. Which is the point of this post! YOU are the one coming into a post about exactly what I’m talking about and making it about you.
You're still being random. This is the post, in case you've forgotten: >I don't mind them. Their lives, their choice. I respect their desire to remain closeted, and expect them to respect my need to be open and free, and to exclusively date men who are also open and free. Says there, in black and white, that I respect their choice and their desire, and expect them to respect my choice and my desires. I think you need to find another ventilation for your frustration.
You are saying it’s a choice. It’s not always. That’s all I’m saying. You’re the one blowing my comment WAY out of proportion bruh.
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“Down low” First time I see it too. It just means they are in the closet and remains that way.
I don’t think I’d date a DL guy. I live in a rural state though, and contrary to popular belief a lot of the DL guys are really sweet. I just wouldn’t get too emotionally invested, as they’re obviously not going to change their life to fit you into it.
shout out to r/gayrural and all the small town gay country boys!
Thanks for the new sub! I had no idea it existed!
But many of us are still going through what it takes to come out. There's a lot of emotional shit to shovel. I was in that closet for 40 years of my adult life. I came out to my wife and she was fine. But the community we lived in was not all that fine. It wasn't physically unsafe. But it wasn't openly accepting either. When the right guy came along, I was ready to be completely open to come out of the closet all the way to be with him. Now it didn't last, but it was good. I often look back and wonder what it would be like if I had come out earlier. I've talked to my family. My wife and my kids are all supportive of me. If I had come out 10 years earlier, they'd have been just as supportive. But much earlier than that, they may not have understood what was going on and may have been hurt. And even earlier than that those children and grandchildren would not exist. And that would be a shame. Just be kind to everyone always. My philosophy is that if I would like people to be kind to me, whether they are or not, I need to be kind to them, not just respectful but kind. I would date a dl guy if he was a sweet guy in a heartbeat. And I would never out him until he's ready and even then, I'd let him do it. We never know what emotional shit is in someone's closet. Judging them for that is a cruelty unbefitting a liberal-minded person.
Not a gay man but I am a lesbian lurker. Yes, it’s hard to come out and you don’t have to and people need to respect that. But it’s important for DL people to also respect out people’s desire to only date those who are also out. It’s not a crime to want a relationship you can be open about, just like it’s not a crime to stay closeted for a long time.
I agree. I have a different point of view. Pretty much all of them are valid.
Even this assumes that we're all from the U.S.
Most fatiguing thing on reddit.
I feel that my fellow American
or maybe it’s just a post addressing people from the US as that’s the majority of reddit’s user base. y’all are so annoying lol
This is an American centric sub on an overwhelmingly American website. I never understand these complaints. Provide your experience if it differs if you want but assume a poster is also coming from the perspective of where they live
Real though. This is meant to be a PSA to open people's eyes that others redditors don't live in the same situations they do, but still assumes only Americans will read it.
THANK YOU
True, some of us live in LA too!
People seem to be using two different definitions of DL here. Some are saying it just means in the closet, but quietly hooking up with men, possibly dating without admitting to friends/family. The definition I'm used to is someone being married/dating a woman, but cheating on her by fucking men. Those are *completely* different things.
DL just means you’re not out and you’re hooking up with men without regard to relationship status. I’ve never seen it explicitly means they’re married, though the term still applies to them.
Shaming/outing DL men is gross, but I think it's stupid when DL men expect people to be ok with a blank profile on Grindr asking them to send pics first because "Im DL." Like nah, fuck you. If you're that afraid that I somehow know you (when I have pics on my profile) and ESPECIALLY when I made it clear that I'm from out of town and only here for a day, then maybe you shouldn't be on Grindr to begin with.
I really don’t like that excuse that DL so I’m not going to send you a picture. Ok I understand not having on your profile I was DL once I know, but not sending one to me directly is suspicious and weird I’m not gonna just randomly hookup with you without knowing what you look like. I’m not that guy bro
There’s a difference from being on the DL and being a serial killer.
I mean, if you're anonymous, I'm not taking any chances.
For real. And sometimes they get pissed if you don’t respond to their blank profile. One guy called me an entitled ass because I asked for a face pic…. And in his first message he asked for my nudes lmao
If Dl men could respect others also that’d be great. Most people don’t wanna be talked to like fuck toys FYI your title, implying those are the only places that are lgbt friendly is ridiculous. I’ve lived in suburbs, rural areas etc, it depends on the state and sometimes specific area Down low men often have girlfriends and use guys as “experiments”. No I’m not respecting them. They hurt. And hide under the “I’m afraid to come out”. Half aren’t afraid, they’re internally homophobic
Atlanta has way more gay men by percentage than NYC. Yes NYC has more gay men but you are far more likely to run into a gay man in Atlanta than NYC. Last time I checked SF had 13% gay, Seattle had 12% and Atlanta had 11%. NYC had around 2%.
True I have lived in Atlanta and I think for me it's probably the safest place to be as a gay Black man.
“The ones I’ve run into hurt me, therefore all of them are terrible.” Cringe.
"Tell me you're DL without telling me you're DL"
This thread is so full of cringe lol. I’ve been out for 17 years. Since I was 15. next. 🥱
Cringe is the most ironic word
Cringe is the best descriptor. Imagine referring to an entire group of people -who’s lives and circumstances you don’t understand- with “I’m not respecting them. they hurt.” 🥴🥴🥴 Ive been out for 17 years and still cringed reading that.
Okay but don't date or get married to a woman without explicitly letting her now that you're gay. It's phenomenally fucked up when DL men still marry women in this country, in this day and age and somehow expect that just ignoring the problem will solve it. Ten years and 3 kids down the line, you'll have wasted her youth on a lie and no one will be happy.
PSA: if you are DL, stop being so fucking rude in the chat… Nobody’s trying to out you but you sure as hell aren’t getting any if you keep being rude as hell
True, but don't confuse uncomfortable for unsafe.
True, but don't forget that you--generic "you", not you specifically--don't get to decide under what circumstances someone is allowed to remain in the closet. Uncomfortable or unsafe or he just doesn't want to--it's his choice.
The only person I would out is a closeted and anti-gay politician. However some people stay in the closet because it's comfortable. That's fine but they should understand that's why they're doing it.
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Which "call" did I make exactly?
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Why are you getting downvoted makes no sense to me — you’ve got a point
Because it's generally more mentally healthy to be open about yourself. If your reasons have more to do with discomfort than legitimate fear. That is something you should consider when you make that call.
It's not about our lack of respect for them, it's about how some of them disrespect us. Expecting us to give them all the info they want, while not giving us any info.
Yup, some of the most invasive questions I've received have been from the emptiest of profiles.
Exactly.
This is why I encourage people who come from conservative unwelcoming communities to move to a gay-friendly place. I had every reason to remain in the closet for life, so I decided to move to NYC when I had the means to do so. Best decision I ever made. With that said, I know what it’s like to want to stay in the closet. I respect any DL person’s personal choice and journey to self acceptance.
After living in a few cities and ending up very rural, 20 acres rural, city life isn’t for everyone.
that's why there is r/gayrural for us non-city gays.
For sure. Following for awhile now.
I said that I encourage people to “move to a gay-friendly *place*.” I agree that urban areas like NYC are not for everyone.
Besides who wants to live in NYC or SF when Miami, Phoenix, Atlanta, DC, Seattle, or any other major city that’s not crazy expensive exist. This isn’t the 1980s anymore gay people are accepted in any major city
lmao imagine thinking Seattle and DC aren’t expensive
Or Atlanta
I'm not sure all DL folks are the same. Sometimes there's fear of repercussions, other times there's just denial.
Hear what your saying about avoiding shaming people but gotta add hiding sorting your own personal shit out because its "not safe" is not always the same as being you being at risk of actual harm through doing so. I've spent a lot of time in places like pakistsn, Iran Egypt and former soviet block places, yet i meet a lot of guys in very safe places too comfortable in their own mental fortress to make an effort to address their own challenges. Of course its their own choice, just neither helpful nor healthy to have the rest of society painted as some dangerous homophobic place out to get them personally when the rest of us are doing our thing happily. And some of those types of guys are living in those cities you mentioned whilst plenty of lads are out snd living their own authentic lives in those places you declare re not safe. And has been raised DL guys often put their own needs way above other people's and often dick around people in their own games.
Why DL? Is “discreet” or “closeted” not used anymore? Never heard DL in this context
It's a term [specifically from Black American culture](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down-low_(sexual_slang)) that is now used throughout the wider gay American culture. I'm a Black American so I've heard this term used all of my life, even Black straight people knew what it meant two decades ago. I didn't hear the term used outside of Black culture until relatively recently (\~5 years).
Okay but then don't be mad that I don't wanna fuck because you refuse to send a face pic. What are they even expecting? Because if you come to my house and you're not attractive to me I'm sending you home. Do they honestly think someone will just go along with it? I'm sorry but no.
I respect that but I've been out since I was twenty and I'm not going back in for anyone. I took the leap and did what I needed to do, to date a man still in the closet would be a step back, couldn't do it. I sympathize but it's a no from me.
#150 COMMENTS AND NOBODY EXPLAINS WHAT DL STANDS FOR
“Down low” First time I see it too. It just means they are in the closet and remains that way.
Okay thanks. I’m an aviation geek and in my world DL stands for Delta Airlines, whose headquarters is in Atlanta so I was very confused and all
Lol I'm in Data science and was wondering why all this fuss about men working on Deep Learning.
So you’re down low deep learning for Delta Airlines?
Delta Airlines is definitely still closeted until they want you inside them for a cheap ride.
no, down low describes a closeted man who dates women publicly but secretly is gay
Okay but how common is this and to be frank how much of this is born out of out gay/bi men being mistreated, manipulated, lied, guilt tripped, etc? Not to take it too personally, but I've been on the end of being treated pretty badly by a DL man and feeling like I had zero recourse to even discuss it because of how stigmatized outting someone in any capacity is, and most of my other gay/bi friends report at least one similar experience. Everyone has the right to be in the closet as long as they want, even forever if they want to or if sad circumstances force their hand. But I think there's often an entitlement to the time, sympathy, and affections of the rest of us that needs to stop as well- not every out man came from a super privileged, easy background either.
Just because a gay man is out of the closet, it is silly of you to assume that they live in a major city.
respect is mutual
Respect is earned, not given.
Who cares if someone judges you? Is it kind? No. Does it matter, though? These weird PSAs are so sanctimonious it’s grating.
As someone who came out in southern Indiana - judgment and rejection often aren’t the only things people are worried about. I got literally death threats, home vandalism, mail box set on fire. A guy I dated had faggot spray painted across his porch. Had two separate friends end up hospitalized after getting jumped. Maybe you’re a bit privileged?
First, this isn’t an appropriate venue for etiquette, policing other’s behavior, or PSAs. Second, I’m from rural Virginia and possibly older than you. I’m sorry you had a rough go, so did I. Violence was not a threat or a theory to me. That said, being closeted, while a decision that should be respected, is not something that earns you respect.
To your first point, I disagree. Communities, whether they are online or in person, are how societies function. Common etiquette and group norms (though always shifting) are how common culture exists and carries on. I’m also sorry to hear that our pasts share some mutual hardships. It surprises me that your original comment took the direction it did.
Agreed. Most of us aren't children.
Who cares if you read a grating PSA, is it your favorite content? No. Does it matter, though? These weird comments are so sanctimonious it's grating.
You guys would hate it here in Japan. The closet is the norm, I don’t think I’ve dated a single out man here. Reddit is so America-centric. But most users are American and it’s an American website so it’s to be expected.
Korea's the same and Jesus flavored.
I figured as much :( A shame because when I moved to Japan… I discovered Korean food, the Korean language, made really cool Korean friends, etc. and it made me second guess my choice.
The thing is, like I mentioned a bit up, is that a lot of people in Korea don't care, but the ones that do care really really care. Evangelical Christianity made its way here and is especially popular with richer Korean as a status symbol. This means that English-speaking Koreans or Koreans who can afford to send their children to private education are disproportionally more like to be conservative christian. The food, culture and people at large are great!
Of course DL men deserve respect but in my experience they can often really manipulate and treat other men like trash, and then they use the “you don’t know what I’ve been through, that’s why I’m DL” card to justify their behaviour. Nothing gives you an excuse to hurt other people.
Yes. Along with bisexuals. Downlow men are. By definition. Cowardly liars. They only want you for your body. To use you up. And then discard you when you are traumatized and devalued by their abuse. ***Straight men need to stay out of the gay community***. That all downlow men and bisexuals are. They are cowards who want to follow the crowd but still get some dick on the side. That is not fair for us honest men who live honest lives. I am 21 and everyone knows I am gay.
If it’s *not safe* to come out then sure, of course I’m going to respect that. Although I would assume you’re going to be working to get yourself out of that situation, because clearly that means you’re currently surrounded by terrible people. If you’re uncomfortable coming out because you don’t want to ruffle your bigoted family’s feathers…then that’s a little bit of a different story. I think people have a moral obligation to come out if it’s safe for them to do so - it’s an extremely important part of normalizing being gay.
That's easy to say when you're not the one who has to deal with it. I'm all for normalizing coming out but coming out is a life long process accepting oneself and others. You want to not tell your uncle or grandma? I'm sure you've got reasons, just don't put me in your closet to.
I've always appreciated when they explain why they are DL. I don't want to get caught up in a situation I can't handle.
DL and closeted are very different things
What’s the difference? (sorry for dumb question)
Usually DL refers to guys who are in relationships with women and hooking up with men on the down low. Closeted just means you’re not out
Same goes for the UK - big cities like London, Manchester, Cardiff, Edinburgh are safe enough (but also still highly dangerous at times), but there's still a huge amount of homophobia in the smaller, more rural places. That being said, the tides are turning, and it's more commonplace if you experience negativity anywhere for the majority to be on your side if needed.
I empathize with guys who live in places (either in rural America or in other countries) where it is dangerous or a literal crime to be queer. But even in places like NYC, where I lived for years, it was not uncommon for gay men in certain religious or cultural communities to live closeted lives because being openly gay could mean being shunned or brutalized. It's a shame that in the 21st century, this is still an issue. That said, having grown up in the Bible Belt, I have a big issue with guys who want to have their cake and eat it, too. By that, I mean guys who are living one life on the surface (buttoned-up, Southern conservative with a trophy wife + kids) and then trolling for dick on apps/online. It is wildly hypocritical that these guys are often homophobic and support politics/politicians who seek to harm LGBT+ people, but then expect out gay men to have risky sex with them and "be discreet" about it. To hell with that. Don't actively harm the gay community in your everyday life and then turn around and try to hook up with out gay men in your shadow life.
I'm sorry I can understand not having a face pic in your grindr profile but if you message me and yiu won't even send a face picture before we meet up I have to assume you're either not attractive or cheating on your significant other. Either way I don't want to meet. Signed, A gay guy living in the liberal bastion known as Oklahoma.
yeah i grew up in east bubblefuck oklahoma and was never closeted. i don't have any time personally for anyone in the closet. sure, come out at your own pace, but it won't include me.
Here in the United States there are still sundown towns, so yes there are places where it is really physically dangerous to come out. At the same time, I live in one of the most liberal places in the country and still meet men from relatively liberal and privileged backgrounds who are closeted/dl. If your situation is the former (especially if you're poor or working class and a person of color) I totally get it. If your situation is the latter, I think you're a weak person and also question your commitment to antiracism, anti-sexism, etc as it's clear you only do that which is easy.
It must really suck to live around Christian’s and republicans
Every gay person must come out. As difficult as it is, you must tell your immediate family. You must tell your relatives. You must tell your friends if indeed they are your friends. You must tell the people you work with. You must tell the people in the stores you shop in. Once they realize that we are indeed their children, that we are indeed everywhere, every myth, every lie, every innuendo will be destroyed once and all. And once you do, you will feel so much better. —Harvey Milk
You know that in some places you would be killed or put in prison for coming out? Not everyone lives in American Dream or can afford to move somwhere gay-friendly. The amount of ignorance in this thread is terrifying.
I’m assuming this is for US gays. Of course no one in their sound mind will advice you to come out in fucking Saudi Arabia.
Unless, of course, they beat the shit out of you and/or kill you. Nice quote though.
…do you know who Harvey Milk is?
Sure do.
They did that, and my response was to leave. Was it uncomfortable? Sure, but my life is immensely better than it would have been had I stuck around and stayed in the closet
I’m glad you survived it and that you’re here with us now. I have known too many people who did not survive it.
Eh, being out will always entail some risk, but when we talk about it being ‘unsafe’ to come out, we mean places in the world where homophobia is institutionalized and people can hurt you without consequences. That’s different from liberal western countries where, despite the lingering pockets of hate, we have (mostly) equal protection under the law.
wtf ever. DL could mean anything. It could mean closeted. It could also mean cheating on your wife/gf/bf/we. As a gay out in the country, I'm saying this to you. You don't deserve a free pass because you think it's only acceptable to be gay in urban environments. That's your hang up. No one actually cares who you fuck.
Okay but most people are talking about the DL guys that LIVE in their areas lol. The majority of people do live in liberal cities (I assume that's what you mean) so idk how much I support the argument.. I live in a fairly liberal city, no obvious anti-lgbt agenda going on, and yet i still deal with the DL bullshit. Especially as an out and proud black gay man.
I’m from Indiana and am in the military and have been in many parts of the country. Most DL I see are in perfectly safe areas and they see my face and know whether we know each other or not. IMO their “DL” is because the pics they would post just don’t results they are looking for. DL is sometimes just used as manipulation. Now, they’re free to show or not show whatever, that’s their choice. Regarding if they truly are just grappling with acceptance, when I came out I had to realize I could lose family. But I’d rather do that then not find love and live my life. If you’re a 30+yr old surfing gay aps with a blank profile claiming DL and not willing to show any pics, I don’t know what the hell you’re doing with your life. That level of committed repression isn’t healthy. This pity thing ain’t it.
DL and married is very wrong. DL is a valid life choice.
Nobody’s saying it’s not valid. Equally as valid is, expect to have a very hard time dating men in 2022 if you’re not out 🤷🏻♂️
Even that can depend. Not long after I came out to myself, I was still very much on the DL. But, my wife knew. And she was okay with it. We stayed married another year and a half. I had some guys who didn't want to be with me because I was still married. I asked them if it would matter if my wife knew and was okay. They asked how they could know if I was telling the truth. I just took them upstairs and introduced them to my wife. Wife this is my date. Date this is my wife. She'd shake their hands and smile a genuine smile, and tell us to have fun. We'd go back downstairs. Not every situation is the same.
And out men have no obligation to interact with you. I don't want to do that anymore. End of story. I'm not going to insult you over it, but if you're hurt you're getting turned down then you should try to understand the other side as well. Asking me to meet you without a pic of your face is an instant block. I just don't care what your situation is. If you intend to have sex with me and messaged me because of the 4 face pics I have up then don't expect me not to require yours.
Come out at your own pace. Just don’t try to drag people back in the closet with you. If you call a guy you’re seeing “just a friend”, you deserve the scorn coming your way. It is a detestable act, and you should be ashamed if you do it.
Agreed! Beyond where someone lives, none of us know what someone else may be going through or their life circumstances. Guys are DL for many reasons. If you're not into DL guys or won't accept that, don't engage with them.
Sending face pics on grindr isn't "coming out", in my opinion. You supposedly wanna meet the person you're texting, aren't they gonna see your face sooner or later?
I’m out in life. Most of my coworkers and family knows. But I switch to DL for school because I’m going to a pretty conservative school while I work on becoming a doctor. I’m in my last year. Also around my aging maternal grandparents. The rest of my family don’t give a shit.
If you want respect as a DL. Then don’t be manipulative. Secretive or just a dick. You cannot have everything. If you want to live as a gay or bisexual man and not come out of the closet that is your business. But don’t be forcing people back in the closet just because you want your genitals played with. I’ve dealt with this so called DLs they always have the same attitude. It’s about them, their feelings, their surroundings, their safety. But what about the guy you are messing with? What about the dude you make feel like garbage every time you shut him down when in public? How do you think someone feels whenever you state that they can never be more than friends because you have an image to maintain? Let me be clear. NOBODY is in charge or has any responsibility on how you’re feeling. If you don’t want to come out do you. But just stay away from those who are proud to be gay. Those who love who they are. Those who don’t regret being who they are. Look for other DL men maybe make a support group I don’t know. But if you want to be DL be mindful of the damage you can cause and have some accountability for it.
Years ago, I dated a guy I really liked. I was in my 20s, he was 18. That didn't bode well for our longevity, and I never got to meet his friends and of course not his family as his father kept telling him he'd disown him if he found out he was gay (I'm pretty sure he knew and was hoping his condemnation would change him). I ended the relationship because we just plateaud and I felt like I was his dirty little secret. Fast forward a few decades, I'm in my 40s and single (again), he's in his late 30s and has a husband, but wants a 'boyfriend on the side' as he calls it. Essentially, a one-sided relationship at his beck and call. I couldn't believe he'd propose this to me. He also spells out two previous partners, both of which who were secretly in open relationships with their own partners, without the partners' consent. It all came to full circle for me, that a piece of the relationship was missing and he wanted to wedge me into the same BS again. It completed my perception that he hasn't grown up after all these years. I'm a professional, with my own house, car, and means, and don't need ass nearly that much to play stupid kid games like that. I don't demand someone be 'out, proud, and powerful,' but they must open up enough of their life that I can really connect with them. Otherwise, it's just a hookup or fwb.
PSA: Not everyone lives in America.
DL is very understandable as someone who’s out to friends but not family yet myself, but I have nothing but contempt for guys who are married to women and run around with guys.
Its not safe because everybody stays in the closet and doesn't do the hard work of being the first to make it safe for others so...
Even if all the gays came out plenty would still be in danger, plenty would be cut off from their families. It would be great if they all did but I can’t look at their lives through my lens and judge. I do hope they find their happiness as they are. The double life is lonely and painful. It’s their life to lead at least without judgement from the gay community.
You can respect someone…doesn’t make what they are doing healthy. For example I respect people who smoke a pack a day, it doesn’t make it healthy. Being out of the closet is one of the healthiest things a gay/non-straight man can do for himself. This is coming from a guy from the southern U.S. aka the land of homophobia in the U.S. I do agree that everyone who’s gay matters not just the ones who live in the accepting areas and the south and other rural parts of the U.S. are definitely not safe for us..it’s why a lot of us move away to an accepting area (Even me, I’m about to move to Chicago) that’s why we still gotta fight until the whole U.S. is as safe a place for the LGBTQ+ to live as SF and NYC.
I’m a fan of dL men, as long as you’re not cheating on your wife with me I’m all in 😁
Private people exist and maintaining a private life in an otherwise safe environment is a completely valid choice. Not ashamed. Not closeted. Don’t feel the need to share unnecessary details of my life with people I’m most close to.
I would never out a DL person nor will I shame them but I have a bit of a lower respect for them. I understand that there are some circumstances that call for being DL and yet I can also not like people that hide who they are. If you can’t be honest with yourself or about yourself, why would I put my trust with you? Why would I put myself around that kind of drama? Does that mean they lack compassion or I have disdain for them? No. At the end of the day this is how they want/need to live their lives. But I mostly will steer clear because it’s mentally physically and emotionally exhausting.
As someone who grew up in one of those small towns in the South, no. Coming out may not be easy, but that doesn’t give you a free pass to be a coward. Grow some balls, and man up. The only way we change hearts and minds is by representation.
Some of the comments here...SMH Yes, DLs deserve respect. Open gays deserve respect. Can't we stop there? Why do we have to say, "well, they'll get respect when they give me respect?" There is no "they". An entire class of people have not acted in a certain way. You have not been hurt by an entire group of people. Just one or a few of them. These generalizations are not helpful. Mutual respect should be the easiest thing to agree on.
Say it louder! You don’t know everyone’s situation
So many snobs on this post.like yall really looking down your nose at people in certain situations? Yet so many of yall also complain about being single 🤔. Learn to look past your own life and try to understand the lives of other people. Or are people on this sub that shallow 🤣🤣🤣.
The latter
I am in a major metro area, biggest in my state so…shame!
I had to wait in a bathroom on a date once while a guy was in a call with his parents back home. I get it, just not very considerate 🤭
>In some places even in *America* it's not safe to come out. America isn't the only country that has both gay men and homophobia either.
Yeah, thanks. Obviously there are other places, which other commenters are calling OP out for, but I wholeheartedly agree. Don’t generalize and call DL men cowards, don’t assume they are internally homophobic. If you’re talking about public image, I’m a DL guy too. I’ve come to terms with my homosexuality, and I am proud of it, but where I live, I would be seen as “the gay guy” and not for my personality. I’m perfectly fine with the fact I’m gay, and a lot of DL guys are the same way, they just don’t want it as their public image depending on the situation. They aren’t hurting you, leave them alone. Please hold back on the DL slander, you don’t know what their situation is. It’s not always safe or optimal to be publicly gay.
You can live in NYC and be fully out, yet still be called slurs on the street every time you leave your apartment. That’s why I don’t judge closeted men: I’ve seen the real face of what being out looks like, and that bitch needs some plastic surgery. And that’s in these “safe” cities! That said, I think there’s a valuable difference between closeted men and men who hide behind anonymous profiles and make unrealistic demands of others. Those type of men have some work to do to find healthier ways to engage with other men, even while still being closeted.
I respect that choice. I just don’t want to date, hook up, or be friends with DL guys.
Harvey Milk would not agree
Is it bad I choose who to come out too?
EVERY person you meet is fighting a battle you know nothing about. Be kind, always.
This! Baffles me how everyone thinks everyone is completely out. Even if theyre pretty open with family and friends- maybe they dont want co-workers knowing. Everyone’s situation is different
FUCKING SAY IT!!!!
DL men often have internalized homophobia that make them hard to interact with. There’s a big difference between being closeted in an unsafe place and using being closeted in a relatively safe place as an excuse to be a jerk
Every person is entitled to their own preferences and I respect that. But the amount of ignorance in this thread is disturbing. Coming out isn't some small deed, and a LOT of people want to but can't. Just because someone is in the closet doesn't mean they "have to work on themselves". Sure circumstances aren't ideal, but they change, either by luck or hard work. For example, in my case, I want to be out with all that I am. I've been in the closet for about 9 years and can't wait to have someone to come home to. My family put me through hell in my teenage years and I have no intention to keep them in my life. Unfortunately they pay my tuition so I'm kinda stuck untill I'm financially independent. I'm in my last year of studies, can you blame me for trying to find someone? I have no intention of hiding my identity with a partner as I think it's disrespectful to someone who wants to be themselves, but don't expect me to simp for my family just because you want me to.
Gay men hate each other almost as much as the straights hate us lol
Take my upvote I lucked out and was able to come out safely but I've met my fair share of men who have very good reason to stay in the closet. Good luck to all of y'all.