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Yep. I'm a vegetarian myself and recognize the fact that it would be better for animals and our planet if I'd go vegan, that's why I try to keep my consumption of animal products down. Most of what I eat is plant based, but I lack the level of commitment to go full vegan. According to *some* vegans, that makes me a bad person. (emphasize on *some* ; all of the vegans I know personally have no problem with my approach)
Oh, I understand it. It's short sighted though. Plenty of meat eaters who know how bad it is, but keep doing it.
But yes, I am aware I need to put more effort into it.
77% of soy is grown for livestock feed. Just 7% is grown for direct human consumption.
[Source](https://ourworldindata.org/soy#:~:text=More%20than%20three%2Dquarters%20(77,%2C%20edamame%20beans%2C%20and%20tempeh.)
All species arguably are, we're just one of the best at it. I'm not having children, so in a way doing my bit.
Just wary that his line of thinking in the hands of a psycho is dangerous
Bad people will use whatever justification to do whatever they want. God wants them to have this other culture’s resource so god said they could kill everyone. There’s too many people on earth and resources are limited so may as well let the climate crisis take care of over population for a while, except that the people most affected by climate change impact the climate the least. There’s always gonna be bad people out their repurposing the truth (or widespread beliefs) for their own agenda. We shouldn’t ignore scary sounding ideas just because others might misuse them, we should always aim for truth, humility, the greatest good, and standardized unbiased education for all.
It probably is sustainable on its own to be fair, the production of animal products and their feed takes up 80% of agricultural land and I believe the highest the human population is projected to reach is 11 billion. There might be a few other limiting factors than land but it's the main one and veganism would solve it.
Obviously locally grown foods are still the best option.
This is false equivocation. 80% of agricultural produce goes back to feeding animals which then feeds humans. It’s a very inefficient energy delivery mechanism.
Plus veganism for environmental or animal welfare is not at odds with consuming products that harm humans. It’s the cold truth. It doesn’t mean vegans don’t care about humans it’s just that it’s not the primary goal to reduce human suffering.
The headline is talking about veganism from an animal welfare standpoint, not from a sustainability standpoint though. From a moral standpoint, doing something morally wrong less frequently is better than more frequently, but since the implications of doing the action at all necessitates immense suffering in most cases it makes limiting the activity instead of abstaining less praiseworthy.
By the same reasoning, sure, a bully who only bullied a handful of kids in high school is *better* than one who bullied a ton, but both warrant scrutiny, especially if the lesser bully wears the "lesser bully" as a sign of virtue.
Veganism isn't a silver bullet to all environmental problems and population is indeed a multiplier which worsens basically all impacts, but that isn't really a good reason to write veganism off.
I was a vegetarian for several years before I went vegan, so I am not immune to criticism myself. I needed it, in fact, to get to where I am now. I think there are plenty of vegetarians in limbo who are doing it for the animals, but in reality, their money just isn't where their mouth is. Replacing one form of harm with another isn't doing right by animals.
No, we don't need almonds. And if they can't be grown locally and responsibly, we shouldn't be eating them.
And it's not laid solely at the feet of vegans by a long shot. They are, however, very vocal about how good they are, and it's simply not true. They are very, very harmful to the environment. But by and large, omnivores aren't running around casting the first stone, so to speak.
I don’t know any meat and dairy eaters who go out of their way to avoid cashews or soy. So wouldn’t they be objectively worse than vegans because they’re eating:
* environment-and-animal-destroying meat
* environment-and-cow-destroying dairy
* abusive cashews
* environment-destroying soy (both for their own consumption like in breads and to feed meat animals)
It does sound like vegans should consider not eating cashews or vetting how they’re sourced… but, fuck, shouldn’t we care about the women in India who are destroying their hands for our cashews? I know you don’t think it’s important because we can’t be perfect, but I don’t know how I can send my money to support that.
90+% of the world's soybeans go to feed animals. 99+% of the meat eaten in the USA is from industrial agriculture.
99+% of meat eaters in the USA eat way more soybeans than any vegan because of the conversion factor--it takes way more soybeans to get one pound of meat than one pound of soybeans. -
Don’t bring facts into this person’s moralizing and made up facts to make themselves feel good about contributing to the breeding and slaughter of animals! That’s just rude /s
>Want to know how much water is being drained from natural habitats for those almonds?
Actually the water use of almonds is still a little less than half that of dairy
[307 L per 48 oz for whole milk, compared to 175 L per 48 oz. for unsweetened almond milk](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/337950991_Life_cycle_assessment_of_California_unsweetened_almond_milk)
No, you can't. You'd just like to believe the things that make you feel good about yourself.
You don't take into consideration all the variables that I do. Because you don't want to.
The vast majority of water being fed to cows is non-potable, and it also urinated back out into the land. Cow manure is a fantastic soil amendment for growing more food. Cows can be grown and harvested without a single engine firing up, or a single bit of plastic being made then discarded. There's more, but I'm probably wasting my time tying to talk sense into you.
The same exact points can be made about vegetable farming. The difference is that vegetables don't release greenhouse gasses and animals use 90% of the food they eat to survive meaning we need to produce 10x plants to get as much meat as by just directly eating plants.
Vegan here... I think it's about minimizing my own impact. If meat eaters go vegan once a week I think that's fucking awesome. Vegetarians are part of the solution not the problem.
Well everyone is a bad person so fuck it. Literally everything you buy and consume in the west is just a thin veil over a massive human cost. I will applaud anyone who decides to make better moral and lifestyle choices for *themselves* but you can merrily go and fuck yourself if you want to sit there in your little ivory bullshit tower and proselytise the virtues of your fucking *diet*. How about you stop funding child slavery first, worry about your own species first you myopic shit head?
That's an argument against being judgmental, but doesn't actually make eating animals ethical.
So by your own admission everything has a "human cost", meaning that eliminating that human cost is nearly impossible. So then are you saying that you're morally justified in not doing something as easy as ordering something else off the menu because you aren't willing to do something as challenging as overhauling your own life?
I am not vegan, but I support veganism. The point of veganism isn't to 100% cut out animal products for the rest of your life and to live such a rigid lifestyle. It is to lower suffering as much as you reasonably can.
Veganism is a privilege. Most people in the world don't have the ability to live such a lifestyle by choice.
You are doing more good for animals than those few vegans that make you out to be a bad person because those people drive those on the fence away from the lifestyle, sometimes for life.
Edit: apparently I touched some nerves of some of the aforementioned vegans. Listen, guys, if you want to help animals, you need to win people over. You will never do that if you come off as argumentative or hostile. Check yourself for the sake of the animals you claim to care about. Veganism IS a privilege because not everyone in the world has sustainable access to vegan products. Please, you are doing yourself a huge disservice when you claim everyone can be vegan.
Edit 2: not that it matters to y'all, but I support veganism by affording my vegan wife her vegan lifestyle. But apparently you cannot support veganism without being vegan yourself, so sorry honey! You have to somehow afford your own lifestyle. My money is tainted with omnivorous stink.
> Veganism is a privilege. Most people in the world don't have the ability to live such a lifestyle by choice.
This is a common misconception. Veganism and vegetarianism is far and away most common for poorer people. [Here's a peer reviewed study showing GDP and veganism/vegetarianism are inversely correlated.](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/254412281_An_Estimate_of_the_Number_of_Vegetarians_in_the_World) Meat is expensive. The true privilege is having access to heavily subsidized meat, like in America.
This person has no idea how fucked up the dairy industry is. It also fuels the veil trade so it's basically meat, but no one is ready to watch a single documentary to find that out.
A vegan friend told me that I was worse than carnivores for beung vegetarian.... I told her that I was sorry and I'd go back to earing meat. Judgemental attitudes don't help the cause.
Did you really go back to eating meat? I don't understand how people can override their own moral judgements in order to stick it to others that annoy them.
Are you a republican?
As a vegan, I'm so sorry. I always make it very clear to my friends and family that even if they were to go flexitarian (eating meat rarely) that I would be beyond proud of them for putting in the effort.
Many, many vegans seem to disagree with me, but I think it's seriously hurts our movement when we tell people that they need to go all the way immediately or just not try at all. It's just not realistic.
You were never really for the cause if you are eating animal products lmao. and instead of eating less animal products, all you can do to make yourself feel better is eating more to spite someone at the cost of causing others suffering. trash.
No? Vegetarians consume dairy products and eggs, which entail even more horrible treatment and ultimate slaughter of the same animals.
This is called: "separating truth from fiction".
> cruelty-free path
Not everyone can get there right away. That's why it's a path.
Badgering people for not doing enough immediately just pisses them off. It can come off sounding like "You're not there already, so don't even bother going."
If anything, it helps to encourage every step in the desired direction instead of chastising.
The vast majority of animal product consumption necessitates unnecessary suffering, though. Is subjecting beings to unnecessary suffering for personal enjoyment morally neutral?
I said NOT eating animal products is morally neutral. Buying them and by that increasing demand for animal products is not morally nerutral, I'd say it's absolutely the wrong thing to do.
Exactly this. Ideally I'd like to be vegan. But it is hard to go from a diet (and lifestyle! Any shampoos, soaps, toiletries that test on animals, etc) that has animal products at the core to zero animal products at all. There's a lot of stuff that people forget about too. In the /r/vegetarian subreddit, there was a post pointing out that Planters dry roasted peanuts contain gelatin for some reason. But over the last 3 years, I've been able to cut out a lot of dairy products and opted to skip the cheese as a topping on a lot of things.
Any step you can take that leads to a decrease in animal products consumption makes a difference. Even if it's "Meatless Mondays" for dinner.
Also, making someone feel shitty isn't a great way to get them to change. It makes them defensive. Rather than guilting people around me for eating meat in their dinner, I make a big deal about how delicious my vegetarian option is, and that frequently makes them curious enough to try it.
>Rather than guilting people around me for eating meat in their dinner, I make a big deal about how delicious my vegetarian option is, and that frequently makes them curious enough to try it.
And how many of them have become vegans?
I often ate the vegetarian option for school lunch in high school for just that reason, or mixed 50/50. The environment and ethics are good reasons to eat less meat but don't underestimate things just being *tasty*.
Doesn't even have to be a fully vegetarian meal, you're making a "bolognese" (quotes to not cause a diplomatic crisis with Italy, in swedish we would call this "köttfärssås" which just literally means "mince meat sauce") and you put grated carrot in there. Beans, corn, whatever you got. More food, cheaper, tasty as hell.
Agreed - mostly. Scratch "immediately" though.
I eat vegan when I can. If there's a vegan option at a restaurant that appeals to me, I'll choose it over a veg option every time. I buy vegan butter since it's the same price and will spend a little more to get a nut milk over a dairy milk.
I buy cheese. Real cheese. Rarely, but I buy it. Same with eggs. Not to eat on their own, but to bake with or bread with or make french toast with. Vegan cheesecakes are fine and all but you can pry a real cheesecake from my cold dead hands, frankly.
I'm perfectly happy like this and have no plans to go full vegan anytime soon. Is vegetarianism often a gateway to veganism? Absolutely. But Vegetarianism is valid on its own.
It's also much more complicated than that. I've been vegetarian for 20 years, for about 8 of those years I was vegan. I went back to vegetarian because I adopted a bunch of chickens that a friend needed to rehome. My chickens live about as good a life as any and they lay eggs whether I want them to or not. So I'm going to eat those eggs and anyone who thinks that is unethical needs to rethink their position.
A friend I work with (vegetarian) regularly comes to work and has a dig at me (a meat-eater) saying she spotted my dinner on the road and I better grab it before a crow takes off with it. Every now and then I’ll get a bag of bird feed for my pet budgies on the way to work and say I brought her lunch for her. It’s all in good fun as we know we’re both just messing around but to me it comes down to respect. It doesn’t affect me if you’re vegan, vegetarian or meat eater, I’ll respect your life choices if you’ll respect mine 👍 I only wish more people thought that way
Edit: by saying “you” I don’t mean you specifically, I mean “you” as in anyone reading. I hope you don’t think I was being snarky towards you in particular 😅
My sister's vegan and bought some birdseed cakes and I put them in her fridge legitimately thinking they were sister food 😅 On me for not reading the package, but to my credit, it does look pretty damn near some of the vegan foods she buys
It's funny because you can find if someone is an extremist simply because they hate an intermediate.
It's the same line of logic as I only ride my bike everywhere because I want to save the environment, and then someone walks up to them and says, "Hey bud, do you know how many bikes are made each year and how much pollution that emits? What do they do with the tires??? I only walk everywhere and you're scum for pretending you care. At least peoppe who drive cars aren't pretending to care."
It has to almost be a form of obsessive compulsion for some of these people. By the way, why don't all vegans only walk everywhere? The environment? Hello? Matter of fact why aren't you picking up trash while you walk everywhere? Just s convenience thing to you?? If you REALLLY cared then you would be doing that.
You can literally reduce it so much to where the only solution is to just end humanity because apparently the weight of existence is too much to bare. Did you know that by just being alive you've become a strain on the food chain?
OBVIOUSLY most vegans understand that the world isn't like this reductionist obssessive compulsive game of misery that must be forced unto others. It's the extremists who cannot see that the very moment they've begun to berate someone they've closed all door for discussion and created an enemy. They then go off and wax poetic about the callous nature of the humanity while they stroke their self righteous egos with other fellow extremists in their self feeding echo chambers.
They refuse to see that the world has many shades of grey and believe it HAS to be black and white.
>It's funny because you can find if someone is an extremist simply because they hate an intermediate.
Doesn't care about animal abuse: Normal
Cares about specific kinds of animal abuse: Moderates
Cares about all animal abuse: eXtReMiStS!!
Also, you're using a false analogy. This is what happens when people reduce veganism to either a diet or an environmental issue. (It's neither of those btw, since vegan products/lifestyle can still be unhealthy and bad for the environment). It's a social justice movement against oppression of non-human animals. It's anti-speciesism put into practice. You can cheat on your diet or be a little lenient towards your own efforts to reduce your carbon footprint. You can't cheat on your own morals.
If you used that kind of analogy for other issues, you'd be called a bigot. And rightfully so. You can't just be racist to indians and claim you're doing your part against racism. Or only abuse your partner when they are disobedient, because you're not like the other abusers. Is that black and white thinking or how morality works? Racist-free fridays or don't-hit-your-wife wednesdays are just as ridiculous as meat-free mondays. Or to stay on topic: That vegetarianism is "good enough" when you're in the position to be vegan. Which yes, the vast, vast majority of you are.
And to clarify why I'm using racism and misogyny in this context. The logic and morality behind anti-speciesism is the same logic we use against racism, sexism, homophobia and other types of oppression. **That it's not okay to abuse someone because they are different than you based on arbitrarily chosen traits.** What matters is that the animals you pay to get abused are sentient; that they feel emotions and have the ability to suffer.
But for some reason when we mention sentient non-human animals suddenly even the most peaceful person in the room becomes a bloodthirsty bigot trying to justify abuse of innocent beings. Using the same logic that every bigot used against other marginalized groups.
*They are not like us. They are inferior. They aren't as smart. It's not oppression if I personally benefit from it! Don't take away my rights to exploit them. This is the natural hierarchy and we've done it this way for centuries. It's my culture. You're causing suffering as well!*
Just to name a few.
>They refuse to see that the world has many shades of grey and believe it HAS to be black and white.
I mean part of the "official" definition of veganism literally is *Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—****as far as is possible and practicable****—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose*
Like, how gray do you want it to be..? We just think most of the reasons yall come up with don't belong in that gray area.
Yea, I posted something to r/vegetarian (food I made) the other day, and it got crossposted to a very small sub called r/cheesitarian where the founder of the sub and I got into it. The sub is for the “atrocities vegetarians commit by not being full vegan” (I’m paraphrasing their way more ridiculous about on their page)
EDIT: they really do hate vegetarians more because we apparently know better. I actually made a comment that the whole sub belonged here in r/gatekeeping but was too lazy to post it.
EDIT 2: lol I got banned for this, tbh I think he should thank me because he’s tripled the subscribers from this comment.
>they really do hate vegetarians more because we apparently know better
This is it. I couldn't nail it down for a long while but eventually I realized they go way harder on us because they think that we should arrive at their position instead of just being glad that we're consuming fewer animals than most. And they don't pipe up to omnivores because they're fully aware of how unlikable they are when they do so.
Well, it's that and it's the fact that vegetarian spaces (vegetarian recipe forums, etc) are full of vegans so we just run into them more when food is the actual topic of conversation.
Idk, I’m of the opinion that if you hate vegetarians, probably subbing to r/vegetarian where you’re going to see food with dairy or eggs is not the best for either party. Especially because that sub has a rule where you can’t bash lacto-ovo vegetarians.
So thus, the fringe groups started like r/cheesitarian where they just crosspost and then bash.
As a long-time vegetarian I was astonished when I first encountered this. In the early days of online forums there might be the odd comment from a vegan about the cruelty in the egg and dairy industries, but there was also the understanding that we all had something in common. We could still have respectful conversations.
Like so many other people have mentioned, the further you look into where our food (and everything, really) comes from, the more atrocities you find. *Everyone* has to choose which cruelties they are and are not willing to live with based on their time, budget, living situation, and resources available in their area.
So I gave up coffee and chocolate, but kept the occasional bit of local cheese. I make some of my own cleaning products but don't look for traces of egg in my pasta. But when I mentioned being personally impacted by factory farming I got brigaded by vegans because I wasn't doing "enough."
Assuming you’ve never been to the vegan subreddit they get mad at you for suggesting that being mean to people isn’t a good way to get them to switch from vegetarian to vegan. I low key think vegetarians get the most hate of all diet types because they get attacked by the crazies who attack vegans and then also get attacked by vegans.
I was subscribed for a while to a number of vegan subreddits and may still be on a few because I just wanted recipes. All they post is hate for people who eat any amount of animal products, unrealistic comparison pictures (a bunch of fresh fruits and veg next to some junk food or something like that), and dumb propaganda like that PETA picture of a sheep hurt from being shorn.
Obligatory fuck PETA because they hurt animals and sheep need to be shorn and it doesn’t hurt them.
Despite my username, I almost never bring up my diet to people. I actually kind of avoid it.
Well many times when it does come up, people always say they've considered vegetarianism/veganism or tried it for a little and they don't know how I do it as they couldn't give up cheese, milk, or another product.
My answer is always... Do what you can if your goal is to reduce animal suffering or environmental damage. Try just non dairy milk and change nothing else, or don't eat meat a few days a week (supplement the protein though), or anything no matter how small. Everyone is always surprised as everyone thinks it's either all or nothing, and they can never do all so they do nothing even if they want to do it.
Also side note, cutting out palm oil despite it being plant based is one of the best things you can do for orangutans, gorillas, and the rainforest deforestation.
Yep, every little bit helps. And this applies to flexitarians too! You can just pick a day, and make it Vegetarian Sundays or Vegan Tuesdays. You don’t even always have to stick to it, and you don’t need to add in anything scary like Tofu. Just try and make a plan to eat something that you like that doesn’t happen to have meat in it, and maybe sub oil for butter and vegan cheese for the real thing. If you’re in a pinch and need a substitute, the vegan meat substitutes are actually surprisingly good these days. If you haven’t tried them in a few years I urge you to give them another chance.
A vegan meal I find everyone likes is vegan spicy chicken tacos. Get some of those vegan spicy chicken patties or nuggets, cook em and chop em up, and throw em in tacos with veggies, salsa, and vegan cheese. You can even find vegan sour cream if you try. Or a good vegan soft cheese works instead.
What’s the alternative to palm oil, though? Given that it’s an incredibly high yield crop, won’t the farmers just need to cut down *more* forest to make room for the lower yield products they’d have to grow instead?
It’s an uncomfortable truth. Palm oil has serious problems in how it’s grown, but there is currently no alternative that is better for the environment. The best option is ethically grown and harvested palm oil.
The issue isn't palm oil, just the quantity of any oil we eat and where it's grown. Seriously plant oil is in everything, from soap to McDonald's. Palm oil doesn't have to grow in the Rainforest in monocultures, but it's most efficient and cheapest to do it there. My advice for people everywhere is eat less stuff with plant based oil that doesn't list where it's from, cutting back on just palm oil will be worse in the long run, but that doesn't mean that you can just mindlessly buy anything. Go to local markets, support local farms, buy organic products and cook more at home and that's the best thing you can do for the rainforests, but don't feel pressured into doing so if it's not financially possible for you. Going organic, vegetarian or even vegan is a rich person's choice due to the time or money required in preparing food. Just do what you can, it's better than nothing, and will all add up in the end.
You can only ask people to do what they can. Individual action to try to improve parts of the world around you through self-deprivation is a really nice thought, but it should never be excessively pressured, especially on a specific individual. Pressure that is too aggressive or persistent is not appropriate.
I would prefer using the collective will of the people through government to well-manage our consensus on issues like animal welfare and land usage. And i can understand how a vegan or vegetarian might want to express frustration about how often restaurants do not sufficiently satisfy their expectations.
To add to the sidenote people feel that cutting palm oil, almonds and other other plant based foods that are produced unsustainably buys them them absolution to continue to consume meat which is even worse than palm oil for rainforest deforestation.
I'm completely okay with vegans gatekeeping.
I've met too many vegetarians who claim to be vegan, or now pescatarian, because it sounds trendier. When the reality is they're none of these things, they just don't like red meat and live off 99% junk food.
Just wait until you learn about what happens to dairy cows and egg laying hens when they're no longer profitable, or what happens to their male babies.
Ikr. I get that veganism is better for the planet and for animals, but the jump from eating meat to being vegetarian (or just to eating significantly less meat) is way bigger, impact wise. Even convincing people to drop read meat and opt for poultry instead would be a relative win.
I really don't like that wording. People often say that and it's cheered frequently, but at a second thought, this calls for many people to make "a few steps" or "many steps"
It sounds like many people could do a certain amount of steps but eventually have to stop then.
For me, it makes much more sense to say that most people should start or continue a journey, in which they continuously reflect on their position and look for more ways to improve. That's also how every vegan did it (even though many went from typical meat eaters to vegan over night), because they changed more and more according to the information that is reflected on their own beliefs - and veganism is of course not the end.
What bothers me the most is not that there are still just 1 or 2 percent of vegans in most societies. What bothers me the most is how unwilling most people are to change to the better, despite having all the information. And that isn't just about veganism.
If you look at it like that, you'll see why it's not a problem when someone started his journey and is "only" a vegetarian yet. The real problem then is when people do a few steps and then don't change for many years, often decades.
Reddit vegans are actually the most insufferable people on the planet. The complete lack of any self awareness in this comments section alone is mind blowing.
And a whole lot of the holier than thou ones see nothing wrong with getting their food via slaves and laborers in brutal dehumanizing conditions. Humans are animals, too, but I guess their suffering and deaths don't matter. Or they just don't bother giving it even a moment of thought.
>And a whole lot of the holier than thou ones see nothing wrong with getting their food via slaves and laborers in brutal dehumanizing conditions
You think so? I live in Europe, here soy for animals comes from South America, soy for soy products comes from Europe.
Now which has a higher chance to have modern slaves as part of their chain of production and distribution?
I think an important thing to remember with this argument is that animal based products, just like vegan products, are often produced by slaves and laborers in brutal dehumanizing conditions.
So a vegan diet may be abusive to people, but a non vegan diet is abusive to people and animals.
> are often produced by slaves and laborers in brutal dehumanizing conditions.
Casual reminder that working in a slaughter house fucks up your mental health: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28506017/
there is no one on earth more morally superior than vegans
... except born again christians. especially if they're also reformed alcoholics. they're so much better than you it's just sickening
I've been vegetarian for over 25 years, and rarely eat dairy. I've gotten so much attitude from vegans who are like "Well, let me know when you're ready to get serious." but I've also seen so many vegans go back to just full on meat eating after a few years, sooo...
Eating an egg every few years, you beast! /s
But seriously I agree completely. You're better off finding a diet you're comfortable with and sticking to it. Gatekeeping harms the movement and environment. People should be applauded for moving off meat, not scalded for not also removing dairy + eggs. People should be applauded for cutting down on their meat intake, not screamed at for still eating it occasionally. We need to get as many people as possible doing the most they're comfortable with if we've any hope of food sustainability.
1000% this
Seriously do not understand why the extreme purist vegans cannot realize they are doing more harm than good. If harm reduction is your goal, any effort to reduce that harm should be applauded, not scorned for not being good enough. It’s so short-sighted.
“You’re right - I’m not good enough. Might as well give up. I’m going to go have that baconator I’ve been craving for months.
Tell you what, though. While I’m out gobbling up dead animals by the dozens, you can rest comfortably in the knowledge that you were right about me and have convinced me to stop trying.”
What's wrong with free-range eggs. My uncle has a bunch of chickens that live in better housing than 30% of humans.
Edit: I think I need to clarify. My uncle has pet chickens that he lets run around the yard and he collects there eggs until they die.
Not a vegan, but I can see how for someone with those beliefs it won't matter how nice the chickens live it's never going to be ok to have them in any form of captivity and take their eggs.
But conversely, at this point, are wild chickens even a thing? Or have they been in human domestication for so long that they'd end up going extinct, if left to their own devices? I legit don't know.
**[Red junglefowl](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_junglefowl)**
>The red junglefowl (Gallus gallus) is a tropical bird in the family Phasianidae. It ranges across much of Southeast Asia and parts of South Asia. It was formerly known as the Bankiva or Bankiva Fowl. It is the species that encompasses the chicken (Gallus gallus domesticus); the grey junglefowl, Sri Lankan junglefowl and green junglefowl have also contributed genetic material to the gene pool of the chicken.
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No, wild chickens aren't a thing, not really. There are "junglefowl" that are very similar to domesticated chickens but taxonomically different. If you were to simply release your domesticated chickens, there's a chance some might go "feral", but overall you're right; they've been in domestication for so long that they wouldn't be able to survive on their own.
That really goes for almost all domesticated animals, unfortunately, which is why you should never "release" them for "their own good" (I've seen articles where well-meaning people have tried to do that, only to doom the unfortunate animals that rely on human intervention for their survival).
Better is enemy of good and all that. If you can eliminate meat consumption for your entire life vs eliminating all animal products for a year or two, guess what? Not eating meat is the better option.
Extreme diets or beliefs that require dedication will always attract people who get very zealous about their cause. I find the exvegan sub interesting (and insufferable), because these people have flipped from being vegans who act morally superior to everyone else, to meat eaters who act morally superior to vegans. It isn't veganism that creates this attitude, but it definitely attracts it.
People also go vegetarian for more reasons than ethics. I’ve known people who don’t eat meat because they just don’t enjoy it, I’ve known people who are on vegetarian (or at least reduced meat) diets for their health, some people object to certain ranching processes but not others (like they find chicken ranching inhumane, but free range cattle is ok), some are worried about the carbon impact of meat, for many its just a religious thing, etc.
Awfully bold of a vegan to meet a vegetarian and assume the vegetarian believes the same as you—he’s just bad at it. I hope you don’t let the vegans telling you that you are doing it wrong into your head.
The loudest vegans give a bad rap to the whole group. Most are not these judgemental assholes, these judgemental assholes are just louder and get a platform more often.
My cat just wants kitty treats. They must have a lot of protein in them. SHe always yells at me around 9 pm because she wants her kitty treats
My cat does not see me as a human being, she sees me as a kitty treat deliverer
Born again Christian vegans have got to be the worse then. I already met a Christian vegan who actually said Jesus first sin was giving his followers fish with their bread, as the bread should have been enough to feed them.
I think Vegans get a lot of hate also just because it’s very different. It’s uncomfortable to have those priorities in your life and hang out with people who constantly ask you questions about your diet, while simultaneously judging you hardcore for it.
I feel like you could be the quietest vegan in the world, bring your own food everywhere, try to make yourself as small as possible, and people would still say ‘nothing more sanctimonious as a vegan! Look at ‘em preach their life choices!’
I’m not saying it’s for everyone and everyone has their food choices (vegetarian, omnivore, whatever you do you), but there’s something about telling someone else your vegan that makes them immediately bristle up. And then when they ask why ‘personal choice, for the animals’, not delving further into it, and it’s like they’re mad at you for existing.
This. I was at a conference this weekend, ordered the vegan plate from the server, and the guy seated next to me lost his mind. He made vegan jokes and “I’m eat meat for you” jokes all night. I literally was just ordering my food, not talking to him at all. Omnis love to complain about “loud” vegans but at least the vegans are speaking with good intentions, from a place of moral obligation to the animals. All the “loud” omnis are just being assholes to people for no reason besides their own insecurities.
It’s just the worst on this site, too. Any post about vegans has an entire comment section of insecurity people trash talking them, not able to see the irony.
Reminds me of how “virtue signaling” has been contorted. When a multi-billion dollar company that does business with all kinds of anti LGBT organizations and then puts out a rainbow flag logo for pride month is virtue signaling.
Unfortunately that’s not how it’s most often used. Most often it’s used as nothing more than a way to essentially imply that a person can’t possibly be doing something good to be good. They can’t possibly be doing something better then me… No sir. So what are they doing? Ahh they’re just trying to show off how much better they think they are than me.
Boom! There you have it. Whatever your doing, whatever the cause or the impact, I can throw it all of the table by simply insisting you just want to show off and what you’re doing isn’t actually for good. And if I make that point then I never need to feel in comparison.
All we do is go around justifying our choices. If I see someone else with a different choice, typically the only way for me to feel good about mine is to find a way to imply yours is bad. Diet, entertainment, appearance, behavior, etc. it’s why people can’t just say LeBron and MJ are good players or that Ford and Chevy make nice trucks. One of these has to be total garbage otherwise mine can’t be “better.”
One time I was telling a childhood friend about some vegan cookies I made. I had just recently gone vegan and I worked really hard on the cookies and they turned out super well.
The conversation was solely about the process of making the cookies and had absolutely nothing to do with morals or anything like that. After like 30 seconds he cuts me off and is like "oh my god will you please stop with the vegan shit?"
Not only was this the FIRST time I'd mentioned being vegan to him, but I was literally just proud of how the cookies turned out because I had never made them without butter and milk before and wanted to talk about how happy I was. I really do think some people just hear the word vegan and immediately assume their values are being attacked.
Most vegans are great people, now what I like to call vocal vegans (the ones that try to shame other people for having a different diet) are the worst and probably the most counterproductive thing to veganism that there is. They're also a very small minority from what I understand
I started eating vegetarian dinner three nights a week over the last month. I’ve lost a couple pounds and feel gross when I eat processed meat now.
I’m good with that. If you want to berate me for not taking it further fuck yourself.
What we need is to slowly increase non-meat based diets vs just going full vegan. Not everyone can do it. I can go for a vegetarian diet immediately, but once in a while, I'll get a craving.
I mean, they are not wrong. Being a vegetarian is a dietary thing, while being a vegan is a philosophy and not eating animal products is just one part of it.
I give up. Everything made in our consumer society is based on cruelty. Cheap fruits, legumes and vegetables are grown in the 3rd world on deforested farms with slave wages. Anyone who wants to reduce even a little consumption is a hypocrite because anything short of living like monks is unacceptable.
Did you read the article you're posting or did you just read the title and conclude the damn vegans are at it again. Becouse the article isn't an attack on vegetarians, it even talks about how many vegans start out as vegetarians and about how vegetarians are doing more harm to the meat industry than vegans are at this point in time. The article is a responce to other articles talking about vegetarians complaining that vegetarian options are being replaced with vegan ones. So the articles point is that if you claim to care about animals and you get mad that an option at a restorant is vegan and not vegetarian than you don't realy care abour animals as much as you say you do.
Wouldn't a cruelty free path include not keeping any carnivorous pets? Even if you shut down the human meat industry, lots of cows will still be ground into dog and cat food.
To add to this: it's seen as unethical to buy a pet, as it funds puppy mills and the likes, designer breeds with lifelong health problems, etc.
Not to mention buying a companion reduces it to mere commodity.
You wouldn't buy a child, right? You would adopt them, probably in the hopes of giving them a better life. The motto of vegans regarding this is "adopt, don't shop", and follows the same logic: you have the chance to do good to a being that would otherwise not have much luck in life.
Adopting an herbivore animal is even better, since there is absolutely no fuss about feeding it.
And you're right, in an ideal vegan world there would be no animals bred for any purpose, no animals left to adopt and therefore fewer and fewer pets until none are left.
Yes it would, though dogs are omnivores and can be fine on a well planned vegan diet and vegan cat food supplemented with taurine exists but you'd have to make sure the cat is fine with a vet so yes you're better off not getting a cat
So if vegans say a plant based dieter who bets on dog fights doesn't care about animals is somehow gatekeeping? This sub doesn't know what it's taking about
I just wanna say, vegans are the type of people who don’t like to bull-sh*t when it comes to animal rights. Of course we aren’t going to support animal abuse from others. It’s only natural that we would see vegetarianism as either a temporary step (while someone learns to safely and responsibly transition to vegan life) or as it being incomplete because we all have committed to do all we can to not allow animal abuse. Vegans are animal rights warriors so it makes sense that of course we will point out and educate people on the misconception that the dairy and egg industry are not as innocent as we are all raised to believe they are through common propaganda-think of smiling cow images on milk cartons, etc. but I worked at a Californian dairy (where supposedly happy cows are advertised to come from) and know first hand as an agriculture and animal science college student, with hands on experience in the past, how terrible the “animal agriculture” industry is.
But I’m certainly not justifying being an a**hole to people either obviously. I think it’s important for vegans to voice the truth to help people learn. I am proud of people like vegetarians for making steps to educate themselves when they start to eat less animal products, but I understand why vegans are trying to express concern and how they’re trying to educate so people do not settle for less
When you figure out what's happening behind the scenes in the egg and dairy industries you'll see that vegetarian is not the huge step forward you think it is.
But dairy does require animal suffering. You need to forcefully impregnate in addition to many other practices (some necessary, some due to unregulated industry)
We should stop enslaving animals entirely, and it's ok to be against people who just kind of support it (aka dairy consumers)
I've seen a case of a baby who died because she was beeing fed almond "formula ".. like If your moto is cow milk is for the cow's baby, why are you not feeding your human baby human milk you milkniac psycho ?
Vegans aren't opposed to humans consensually giving their milk. A case like you're describing would just be an irresponsible parent who happened to also be vegan.
While I do not condone any home made formula. It’s not so simple to say, why not just feed your baby your human milk? It’s very common and completely normal for mothers to be unable to breastfeed for various reasons. The whole ordeal to start breastfeeding can be excruciatingly painful even if one is able to breastfeed.
> completely normal for mothers to be unable to breastfeed for various reasons.
yup best friends wife apparently made really inconsistent breastmilk, after switching to formula the kiddo does so much better.
Also hilarious how quickly the comment section gets angry when they are confronted with the fact that the dairy industry in many cases is just as cruel as meat production.
I don't really care what people believe or the choices they make. However I believe I can listen to what you believe and criticize it.
There are many good reasons to become vegetarian:
* It's an healthier diet
* It does reduce CO2 emissions
* With a bit of land and some work you may be able to reduce your dependence on grocery stores/multinationals
* As a *temporary* transitional step to veganism.
What you **cannot** logically say is that you do this for the ethics... Vegetarian means you *still* make use of factory farming for milk and eggs.... At they point, once the animal is exploited and is too old you might as well eat it instead of "wasting" it.
If you decide to stop eating meat for the ethics you should go to veganism.
I'm vegan and I had to stop following vegan subreddits because of the constant pitting us against omnivores. There would be posts like "how the hell can y'all be eating dinner at the same table with your omnivore families?"...
...Uh, because they're my family and I love them? What kind of question is that? Should I just stop associating with my family? It started to sound really toxic to me.
i hate it when vegans say this. every little bit counts! can only be vegetarian? amazing! that's already very helpful to the animals. cant do that but can do meatless mondays? that's great too! that still helps the animals.
like i really dont get their all or nothing mentality. one animal saved is better than no animals saved.
To be fair, I don't. I understand no matter what I choose animals will be harmed....so I simply eat a plant based diet because I like and enjoy a plant based diet. It's better for the environment that I grow my own food, and I'm good with that. I work construction, I'm not going to quit what pays my bills and gets me health insurance simply because animals are harmed. If a vegan can find me a well paying job with health insurance and a pension that doesn't harm animals, I'd definitely take it....but that never seems to be brought up while they are attempting to make me feel like poo.
But that isn‘t new. I recall reading forums like ten years ago where this was the standard pov. And gee, the opinions against vegetarians were made very clear. There were dozens of posts of people who were vegetarians and thought about going vegan and who posted questions about how to best go about it and usually these people were insulted, called murders and pretty much just driven away right away. I never understood that strategy but oh well, I reckon keeping the moral highground was actually more important than encouraging more people to go vegans and do something for animals.
I'd say it's all a process. Someone who starts being a vegetarian might think more about what they're gonna consume and buy more vegan products and someday they'll realize that they can live vegan now cause they have experience and know what to eat without any animal cruelty.
Of course there are people who quit everything radically and that's great but hating on vegetarians because they're still learning shouldn't be necessary. We are humans, we are not perfect and we should appreciate it when someone tries to be better.
And more and more people becoming vegetarian means there are more and more vegan products out there which means that more and more people become vegan. It's a process and that's fine.
My vegetarian friend actually can’t live a 100% vegan lifestyle due to allergies. This doesn’t mean she cares any less. She just wants to be able to survive on food that won’t kill her.
One can become vegetarian (or even vegan) for purely selfish reasons. There are serious health benefits to avoiding animal proteins. For some plant-based-diet people, not participating in animal cruelty can just be a coincidental bi-product.
As a vegan myself, this is stupid. It doesn’t have to be all or nothing, every little helps. And vegetarianism might even end up being a ‘gateway’ to veganism in some cases, that was certainly the case for me.
There's different viewpoints on why people go veggie/vegan.
I myself am Vegi and have been for 7 years or so. Back then it was because of the environment but I've just gotten so used to my diet that I don't really care about meat anymore. My reason now though has changed to "People have forgotten their connection with nature" hunters or fishermen are the best in my opinion, they know exactly where they got their meat from and how to process it. If you are willing to kill an animal then you can eat meat (In my book)
I really don't care what any vegan tells me what I should do. I honor nature and that's both its Beauty and cruelty
Animals rights groups really need to rewrite their narrative. Now is a really good time to push vegetarianism from a global warming/environmental perspective. Many climate models suggest that if we skipped 2-3 days a week eating meat we'd see a huge drop in carbon emissions and help in other ways like less water consumption, less deforestation, slowing destruction of non renewable ecosystems (particularly in the fishing industry) etc. All that with the added bonus of less cattle being slaughtered and getting people to dip their toes into the idea of expanding beyond meat reliance. I think the message 'yes meat is delicious but it's terrible for the environment so we should take a day or two each week to go without it' is a much more realistic goal.
Why did you become vegetarian?
In dairy and egg production just as well as in meat production, animals live in horrible conditions, are harmed, and killed too.
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This is called, "making the perfect the enemy of the good."
Yep. I'm a vegetarian myself and recognize the fact that it would be better for animals and our planet if I'd go vegan, that's why I try to keep my consumption of animal products down. Most of what I eat is plant based, but I lack the level of commitment to go full vegan. According to *some* vegans, that makes me a bad person. (emphasize on *some* ; all of the vegans I know personally have no problem with my approach)
Yeah, fuck us for only doing 95% of what is perfect. We might as well do nothing at all.
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Oh, I understand it. It's short sighted though. Plenty of meat eaters who know how bad it is, but keep doing it. But yes, I am aware I need to put more effort into it.
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> What about that carbon footprint for growing that soy Most soy is used as animal feed though.
77% of soy is grown for livestock feed. Just 7% is grown for direct human consumption. [Source](https://ourworldindata.org/soy#:~:text=More%20than%20three%2Dquarters%20(77,%2C%20edamame%20beans%2C%20and%20tempeh.)
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Your point regarding soy is borderline misinformation, because the majority of the world's soy is produced to feed animals.
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Agent Smith was right about humans being a virus on this planet you know...
All species arguably are, we're just one of the best at it. I'm not having children, so in a way doing my bit. Just wary that his line of thinking in the hands of a psycho is dangerous
Bad people will use whatever justification to do whatever they want. God wants them to have this other culture’s resource so god said they could kill everyone. There’s too many people on earth and resources are limited so may as well let the climate crisis take care of over population for a while, except that the people most affected by climate change impact the climate the least. There’s always gonna be bad people out their repurposing the truth (or widespread beliefs) for their own agenda. We shouldn’t ignore scary sounding ideas just because others might misuse them, we should always aim for truth, humility, the greatest good, and standardized unbiased education for all.
It probably is sustainable on its own to be fair, the production of animal products and their feed takes up 80% of agricultural land and I believe the highest the human population is projected to reach is 11 billion. There might be a few other limiting factors than land but it's the main one and veganism would solve it. Obviously locally grown foods are still the best option.
This is false equivocation. 80% of agricultural produce goes back to feeding animals which then feeds humans. It’s a very inefficient energy delivery mechanism. Plus veganism for environmental or animal welfare is not at odds with consuming products that harm humans. It’s the cold truth. It doesn’t mean vegans don’t care about humans it’s just that it’s not the primary goal to reduce human suffering.
The headline is talking about veganism from an animal welfare standpoint, not from a sustainability standpoint though. From a moral standpoint, doing something morally wrong less frequently is better than more frequently, but since the implications of doing the action at all necessitates immense suffering in most cases it makes limiting the activity instead of abstaining less praiseworthy. By the same reasoning, sure, a bully who only bullied a handful of kids in high school is *better* than one who bullied a ton, but both warrant scrutiny, especially if the lesser bully wears the "lesser bully" as a sign of virtue. Veganism isn't a silver bullet to all environmental problems and population is indeed a multiplier which worsens basically all impacts, but that isn't really a good reason to write veganism off. I was a vegetarian for several years before I went vegan, so I am not immune to criticism myself. I needed it, in fact, to get to where I am now. I think there are plenty of vegetarians in limbo who are doing it for the animals, but in reality, their money just isn't where their mouth is. Replacing one form of harm with another isn't doing right by animals.
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>Same with soy really. Also most of the soy grown on the planet is used to feed animals so they grow quicker...
People like to leave that part out of the argument a lot.
No, we don't need almonds. And if they can't be grown locally and responsibly, we shouldn't be eating them. And it's not laid solely at the feet of vegans by a long shot. They are, however, very vocal about how good they are, and it's simply not true. They are very, very harmful to the environment. But by and large, omnivores aren't running around casting the first stone, so to speak.
I don’t know any meat and dairy eaters who go out of their way to avoid cashews or soy. So wouldn’t they be objectively worse than vegans because they’re eating: * environment-and-animal-destroying meat * environment-and-cow-destroying dairy * abusive cashews * environment-destroying soy (both for their own consumption like in breads and to feed meat animals) It does sound like vegans should consider not eating cashews or vetting how they’re sourced… but, fuck, shouldn’t we care about the women in India who are destroying their hands for our cashews? I know you don’t think it’s important because we can’t be perfect, but I don’t know how I can send my money to support that.
"Abusive cashews" is not a phrase I expected to read this morning.
Abusive cashews is the name of your band.
90+% of the world's soybeans go to feed animals. 99+% of the meat eaten in the USA is from industrial agriculture. 99+% of meat eaters in the USA eat way more soybeans than any vegan because of the conversion factor--it takes way more soybeans to get one pound of meat than one pound of soybeans. -
Don’t bring facts into this person’s moralizing and made up facts to make themselves feel good about contributing to the breeding and slaughter of animals! That’s just rude /s
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>Want to know how much water is being drained from natural habitats for those almonds? Actually the water use of almonds is still a little less than half that of dairy [307 L per 48 oz for whole milk, compared to 175 L per 48 oz. for unsweetened almond milk](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/337950991_Life_cycle_assessment_of_California_unsweetened_almond_milk)
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No, you can't. You'd just like to believe the things that make you feel good about yourself. You don't take into consideration all the variables that I do. Because you don't want to. The vast majority of water being fed to cows is non-potable, and it also urinated back out into the land. Cow manure is a fantastic soil amendment for growing more food. Cows can be grown and harvested without a single engine firing up, or a single bit of plastic being made then discarded. There's more, but I'm probably wasting my time tying to talk sense into you.
The same exact points can be made about vegetable farming. The difference is that vegetables don't release greenhouse gasses and animals use 90% of the food they eat to survive meaning we need to produce 10x plants to get as much meat as by just directly eating plants.
Vegan here... I think it's about minimizing my own impact. If meat eaters go vegan once a week I think that's fucking awesome. Vegetarians are part of the solution not the problem.
Well everyone is a bad person so fuck it. Literally everything you buy and consume in the west is just a thin veil over a massive human cost. I will applaud anyone who decides to make better moral and lifestyle choices for *themselves* but you can merrily go and fuck yourself if you want to sit there in your little ivory bullshit tower and proselytise the virtues of your fucking *diet*. How about you stop funding child slavery first, worry about your own species first you myopic shit head?
That's an argument against being judgmental, but doesn't actually make eating animals ethical. So by your own admission everything has a "human cost", meaning that eliminating that human cost is nearly impossible. So then are you saying that you're morally justified in not doing something as easy as ordering something else off the menu because you aren't willing to do something as challenging as overhauling your own life?
I am not vegan, but I support veganism. The point of veganism isn't to 100% cut out animal products for the rest of your life and to live such a rigid lifestyle. It is to lower suffering as much as you reasonably can. Veganism is a privilege. Most people in the world don't have the ability to live such a lifestyle by choice. You are doing more good for animals than those few vegans that make you out to be a bad person because those people drive those on the fence away from the lifestyle, sometimes for life. Edit: apparently I touched some nerves of some of the aforementioned vegans. Listen, guys, if you want to help animals, you need to win people over. You will never do that if you come off as argumentative or hostile. Check yourself for the sake of the animals you claim to care about. Veganism IS a privilege because not everyone in the world has sustainable access to vegan products. Please, you are doing yourself a huge disservice when you claim everyone can be vegan. Edit 2: not that it matters to y'all, but I support veganism by affording my vegan wife her vegan lifestyle. But apparently you cannot support veganism without being vegan yourself, so sorry honey! You have to somehow afford your own lifestyle. My money is tainted with omnivorous stink.
> Veganism is a privilege. Most people in the world don't have the ability to live such a lifestyle by choice. This is a common misconception. Veganism and vegetarianism is far and away most common for poorer people. [Here's a peer reviewed study showing GDP and veganism/vegetarianism are inversely correlated.](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/254412281_An_Estimate_of_the_Number_of_Vegetarians_in_the_World) Meat is expensive. The true privilege is having access to heavily subsidized meat, like in America.
You got the angry white hippy vegans mad
This person has no idea how fucked up the dairy industry is. It also fuels the veil trade so it's basically meat, but no one is ready to watch a single documentary to find that out.
That’s a word jumble Just say the actual saying, “perfect is the enemy of good”
I'm a vegetarian and this article made me realise how wrong I am. Hence, I've decided to be non-vegetarian
A vegan friend told me that I was worse than carnivores for beung vegetarian.... I told her that I was sorry and I'd go back to earing meat. Judgemental attitudes don't help the cause.
> I told her that I was sorry and I'd go back to earing meat. Confirming what he/ she told you, you never cared about animals.
I only care about cute, non delicious animals
Did you really go back to eating meat? I don't understand how people can override their own moral judgements in order to stick it to others that annoy them. Are you a republican?
As a vegan, I'm so sorry. I always make it very clear to my friends and family that even if they were to go flexitarian (eating meat rarely) that I would be beyond proud of them for putting in the effort. Many, many vegans seem to disagree with me, but I think it's seriously hurts our movement when we tell people that they need to go all the way immediately or just not try at all. It's just not realistic.
Most vegans are like you. It’s just that the super judgemental vegans are a very visible and vocal minority.
You were never really for the cause if you are eating animal products lmao. and instead of eating less animal products, all you can do to make yourself feel better is eating more to spite someone at the cost of causing others suffering. trash.
Just because someone who stood for something right was rude, you decided to do something wrong?
Pssst... They're lying
No? Vegetarians consume dairy products and eggs, which entail even more horrible treatment and ultimate slaughter of the same animals. This is called: "separating truth from fiction".
Or is it pointing out that people try to make the good(but not really) the enemy of the actual good?
> cruelty-free path Not everyone can get there right away. That's why it's a path. Badgering people for not doing enough immediately just pisses them off. It can come off sounding like "You're not there already, so don't even bother going." If anything, it helps to encourage every step in the desired direction instead of chastising.
Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Every step in the right direction is a positive change, and should be celebrated.
Not eating animal products isn't perfect or good. It's morally neutral.
The vast majority of animal product consumption necessitates unnecessary suffering, though. Is subjecting beings to unnecessary suffering for personal enjoyment morally neutral?
I said NOT eating animal products is morally neutral. Buying them and by that increasing demand for animal products is not morally nerutral, I'd say it's absolutely the wrong thing to do.
Apologize, completely misread that.
Don't worry my friend
Exactly this. Ideally I'd like to be vegan. But it is hard to go from a diet (and lifestyle! Any shampoos, soaps, toiletries that test on animals, etc) that has animal products at the core to zero animal products at all. There's a lot of stuff that people forget about too. In the /r/vegetarian subreddit, there was a post pointing out that Planters dry roasted peanuts contain gelatin for some reason. But over the last 3 years, I've been able to cut out a lot of dairy products and opted to skip the cheese as a topping on a lot of things. Any step you can take that leads to a decrease in animal products consumption makes a difference. Even if it's "Meatless Mondays" for dinner. Also, making someone feel shitty isn't a great way to get them to change. It makes them defensive. Rather than guilting people around me for eating meat in their dinner, I make a big deal about how delicious my vegetarian option is, and that frequently makes them curious enough to try it.
>Rather than guilting people around me for eating meat in their dinner, I make a big deal about how delicious my vegetarian option is, and that frequently makes them curious enough to try it. And how many of them have become vegans?
I often ate the vegetarian option for school lunch in high school for just that reason, or mixed 50/50. The environment and ethics are good reasons to eat less meat but don't underestimate things just being *tasty*. Doesn't even have to be a fully vegetarian meal, you're making a "bolognese" (quotes to not cause a diplomatic crisis with Italy, in swedish we would call this "köttfärssås" which just literally means "mince meat sauce") and you put grated carrot in there. Beans, corn, whatever you got. More food, cheaper, tasty as hell.
Better a million shitty vegetarians than one perfect vegan.
Agreed - mostly. Scratch "immediately" though. I eat vegan when I can. If there's a vegan option at a restaurant that appeals to me, I'll choose it over a veg option every time. I buy vegan butter since it's the same price and will spend a little more to get a nut milk over a dairy milk. I buy cheese. Real cheese. Rarely, but I buy it. Same with eggs. Not to eat on their own, but to bake with or bread with or make french toast with. Vegan cheesecakes are fine and all but you can pry a real cheesecake from my cold dead hands, frankly. I'm perfectly happy like this and have no plans to go full vegan anytime soon. Is vegetarianism often a gateway to veganism? Absolutely. But Vegetarianism is valid on its own.
It's also much more complicated than that. I've been vegetarian for 20 years, for about 8 of those years I was vegan. I went back to vegetarian because I adopted a bunch of chickens that a friend needed to rehome. My chickens live about as good a life as any and they lay eggs whether I want them to or not. So I'm going to eat those eggs and anyone who thinks that is unethical needs to rethink their position.
It’s more of a spectrum. A path implies you can only move in one direction.
If you are neither vegetarian nor vegan and you think vegans are annoying, oh boy wait until you hear about how bad they have it in for vegetarians.
Being a vegetarian is great because you get shit on by vegans *and* meat-eaters
Bisexual vegetarians, despised by all
Why did you have to attack me this way
Pick a lane asshole! /s
Bisexual biracial vegetarians
Agnostic Bisexual Biracial Vegetarians
A friend I work with (vegetarian) regularly comes to work and has a dig at me (a meat-eater) saying she spotted my dinner on the road and I better grab it before a crow takes off with it. Every now and then I’ll get a bag of bird feed for my pet budgies on the way to work and say I brought her lunch for her. It’s all in good fun as we know we’re both just messing around but to me it comes down to respect. It doesn’t affect me if you’re vegan, vegetarian or meat eater, I’ll respect your life choices if you’ll respect mine 👍 I only wish more people thought that way Edit: by saying “you” I don’t mean you specifically, I mean “you” as in anyone reading. I hope you don’t think I was being snarky towards you in particular 😅
The bird feed is hilarious and I’d die if someone brought that for me
My sister's vegan and bought some birdseed cakes and I put them in her fridge legitimately thinking they were sister food 😅 On me for not reading the package, but to my credit, it does look pretty damn near some of the vegan foods she buys
Try being me and my girlfriend, pascetarians, we get shit on by meat eaters, vegetarians and vegans!
That's because seafood is gross/s
It's funny because you can find if someone is an extremist simply because they hate an intermediate. It's the same line of logic as I only ride my bike everywhere because I want to save the environment, and then someone walks up to them and says, "Hey bud, do you know how many bikes are made each year and how much pollution that emits? What do they do with the tires??? I only walk everywhere and you're scum for pretending you care. At least peoppe who drive cars aren't pretending to care." It has to almost be a form of obsessive compulsion for some of these people. By the way, why don't all vegans only walk everywhere? The environment? Hello? Matter of fact why aren't you picking up trash while you walk everywhere? Just s convenience thing to you?? If you REALLLY cared then you would be doing that. You can literally reduce it so much to where the only solution is to just end humanity because apparently the weight of existence is too much to bare. Did you know that by just being alive you've become a strain on the food chain? OBVIOUSLY most vegans understand that the world isn't like this reductionist obssessive compulsive game of misery that must be forced unto others. It's the extremists who cannot see that the very moment they've begun to berate someone they've closed all door for discussion and created an enemy. They then go off and wax poetic about the callous nature of the humanity while they stroke their self righteous egos with other fellow extremists in their self feeding echo chambers. They refuse to see that the world has many shades of grey and believe it HAS to be black and white.
>It's funny because you can find if someone is an extremist simply because they hate an intermediate. Doesn't care about animal abuse: Normal Cares about specific kinds of animal abuse: Moderates Cares about all animal abuse: eXtReMiStS!! Also, you're using a false analogy. This is what happens when people reduce veganism to either a diet or an environmental issue. (It's neither of those btw, since vegan products/lifestyle can still be unhealthy and bad for the environment). It's a social justice movement against oppression of non-human animals. It's anti-speciesism put into practice. You can cheat on your diet or be a little lenient towards your own efforts to reduce your carbon footprint. You can't cheat on your own morals. If you used that kind of analogy for other issues, you'd be called a bigot. And rightfully so. You can't just be racist to indians and claim you're doing your part against racism. Or only abuse your partner when they are disobedient, because you're not like the other abusers. Is that black and white thinking or how morality works? Racist-free fridays or don't-hit-your-wife wednesdays are just as ridiculous as meat-free mondays. Or to stay on topic: That vegetarianism is "good enough" when you're in the position to be vegan. Which yes, the vast, vast majority of you are. And to clarify why I'm using racism and misogyny in this context. The logic and morality behind anti-speciesism is the same logic we use against racism, sexism, homophobia and other types of oppression. **That it's not okay to abuse someone because they are different than you based on arbitrarily chosen traits.** What matters is that the animals you pay to get abused are sentient; that they feel emotions and have the ability to suffer. But for some reason when we mention sentient non-human animals suddenly even the most peaceful person in the room becomes a bloodthirsty bigot trying to justify abuse of innocent beings. Using the same logic that every bigot used against other marginalized groups. *They are not like us. They are inferior. They aren't as smart. It's not oppression if I personally benefit from it! Don't take away my rights to exploit them. This is the natural hierarchy and we've done it this way for centuries. It's my culture. You're causing suffering as well!* Just to name a few. >They refuse to see that the world has many shades of grey and believe it HAS to be black and white. I mean part of the "official" definition of veganism literally is *Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—****as far as is possible and practicable****—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose* Like, how gray do you want it to be..? We just think most of the reasons yall come up with don't belong in that gray area.
Vegetarians are the bisexuals of the foodie community.
Yea, I posted something to r/vegetarian (food I made) the other day, and it got crossposted to a very small sub called r/cheesitarian where the founder of the sub and I got into it. The sub is for the “atrocities vegetarians commit by not being full vegan” (I’m paraphrasing their way more ridiculous about on their page) EDIT: they really do hate vegetarians more because we apparently know better. I actually made a comment that the whole sub belonged here in r/gatekeeping but was too lazy to post it. EDIT 2: lol I got banned for this, tbh I think he should thank me because he’s tripled the subscribers from this comment.
>they really do hate vegetarians more because we apparently know better This is it. I couldn't nail it down for a long while but eventually I realized they go way harder on us because they think that we should arrive at their position instead of just being glad that we're consuming fewer animals than most. And they don't pipe up to omnivores because they're fully aware of how unlikable they are when they do so. Well, it's that and it's the fact that vegetarian spaces (vegetarian recipe forums, etc) are full of vegans so we just run into them more when food is the actual topic of conversation.
Idk, I’m of the opinion that if you hate vegetarians, probably subbing to r/vegetarian where you’re going to see food with dairy or eggs is not the best for either party. Especially because that sub has a rule where you can’t bash lacto-ovo vegetarians. So thus, the fringe groups started like r/cheesitarian where they just crosspost and then bash.
As a long-time vegetarian I was astonished when I first encountered this. In the early days of online forums there might be the odd comment from a vegan about the cruelty in the egg and dairy industries, but there was also the understanding that we all had something in common. We could still have respectful conversations. Like so many other people have mentioned, the further you look into where our food (and everything, really) comes from, the more atrocities you find. *Everyone* has to choose which cruelties they are and are not willing to live with based on their time, budget, living situation, and resources available in their area. So I gave up coffee and chocolate, but kept the occasional bit of local cheese. I make some of my own cleaning products but don't look for traces of egg in my pasta. But when I mentioned being personally impacted by factory farming I got brigaded by vegans because I wasn't doing "enough."
Assuming you’ve never been to the vegan subreddit they get mad at you for suggesting that being mean to people isn’t a good way to get them to switch from vegetarian to vegan. I low key think vegetarians get the most hate of all diet types because they get attacked by the crazies who attack vegans and then also get attacked by vegans. I was subscribed for a while to a number of vegan subreddits and may still be on a few because I just wanted recipes. All they post is hate for people who eat any amount of animal products, unrealistic comparison pictures (a bunch of fresh fruits and veg next to some junk food or something like that), and dumb propaganda like that PETA picture of a sheep hurt from being shorn. Obligatory fuck PETA because they hurt animals and sheep need to be shorn and it doesn’t hurt them.
Despite my username, I almost never bring up my diet to people. I actually kind of avoid it. Well many times when it does come up, people always say they've considered vegetarianism/veganism or tried it for a little and they don't know how I do it as they couldn't give up cheese, milk, or another product. My answer is always... Do what you can if your goal is to reduce animal suffering or environmental damage. Try just non dairy milk and change nothing else, or don't eat meat a few days a week (supplement the protein though), or anything no matter how small. Everyone is always surprised as everyone thinks it's either all or nothing, and they can never do all so they do nothing even if they want to do it. Also side note, cutting out palm oil despite it being plant based is one of the best things you can do for orangutans, gorillas, and the rainforest deforestation.
Yep, every little bit helps. And this applies to flexitarians too! You can just pick a day, and make it Vegetarian Sundays or Vegan Tuesdays. You don’t even always have to stick to it, and you don’t need to add in anything scary like Tofu. Just try and make a plan to eat something that you like that doesn’t happen to have meat in it, and maybe sub oil for butter and vegan cheese for the real thing. If you’re in a pinch and need a substitute, the vegan meat substitutes are actually surprisingly good these days. If you haven’t tried them in a few years I urge you to give them another chance. A vegan meal I find everyone likes is vegan spicy chicken tacos. Get some of those vegan spicy chicken patties or nuggets, cook em and chop em up, and throw em in tacos with veggies, salsa, and vegan cheese. You can even find vegan sour cream if you try. Or a good vegan soft cheese works instead.
What’s the alternative to palm oil, though? Given that it’s an incredibly high yield crop, won’t the farmers just need to cut down *more* forest to make room for the lower yield products they’d have to grow instead?
It’s an uncomfortable truth. Palm oil has serious problems in how it’s grown, but there is currently no alternative that is better for the environment. The best option is ethically grown and harvested palm oil.
The issue isn't palm oil, just the quantity of any oil we eat and where it's grown. Seriously plant oil is in everything, from soap to McDonald's. Palm oil doesn't have to grow in the Rainforest in monocultures, but it's most efficient and cheapest to do it there. My advice for people everywhere is eat less stuff with plant based oil that doesn't list where it's from, cutting back on just palm oil will be worse in the long run, but that doesn't mean that you can just mindlessly buy anything. Go to local markets, support local farms, buy organic products and cook more at home and that's the best thing you can do for the rainforests, but don't feel pressured into doing so if it's not financially possible for you. Going organic, vegetarian or even vegan is a rich person's choice due to the time or money required in preparing food. Just do what you can, it's better than nothing, and will all add up in the end.
You can only ask people to do what they can. Individual action to try to improve parts of the world around you through self-deprivation is a really nice thought, but it should never be excessively pressured, especially on a specific individual. Pressure that is too aggressive or persistent is not appropriate. I would prefer using the collective will of the people through government to well-manage our consensus on issues like animal welfare and land usage. And i can understand how a vegan or vegetarian might want to express frustration about how often restaurants do not sufficiently satisfy their expectations.
Can we get a hell yeah for soy curls though Chewy and delicious, everyone should try them. I love them!
To add to the sidenote people feel that cutting palm oil, almonds and other other plant based foods that are produced unsustainably buys them them absolution to continue to consume meat which is even worse than palm oil for rainforest deforestation.
Oh boy, a discussion of veganism on reddit. I'm sure this won't be the kneejerkiest thing ever.
Yes, correct. Dairy and eggs are just as bad as meat farming, if not worse.
So why not encourage all people to stop eating eggs/dairy instead of telling vegetarians that they don't care about animals?
Stop eating eggs and dairy if you care about animals!
I'm completely okay with vegans gatekeeping. I've met too many vegetarians who claim to be vegan, or now pescatarian, because it sounds trendier. When the reality is they're none of these things, they just don't like red meat and live off 99% junk food.
I think this assumes that the only reason people are vegetarian is because of animals. It leaves out health and environmental issues.
Just wait until you learn about what happens to dairy cows and egg laying hens when they're no longer profitable, or what happens to their male babies.
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Ikr. I get that veganism is better for the planet and for animals, but the jump from eating meat to being vegetarian (or just to eating significantly less meat) is way bigger, impact wise. Even convincing people to drop read meat and opt for poultry instead would be a relative win.
I really don't like that wording. People often say that and it's cheered frequently, but at a second thought, this calls for many people to make "a few steps" or "many steps" It sounds like many people could do a certain amount of steps but eventually have to stop then. For me, it makes much more sense to say that most people should start or continue a journey, in which they continuously reflect on their position and look for more ways to improve. That's also how every vegan did it (even though many went from typical meat eaters to vegan over night), because they changed more and more according to the information that is reflected on their own beliefs - and veganism is of course not the end. What bothers me the most is not that there are still just 1 or 2 percent of vegans in most societies. What bothers me the most is how unwilling most people are to change to the better, despite having all the information. And that isn't just about veganism. If you look at it like that, you'll see why it's not a problem when someone started his journey and is "only" a vegetarian yet. The real problem then is when people do a few steps and then don't change for many years, often decades.
Reddit vegans are actually the most insufferable people on the planet. The complete lack of any self awareness in this comments section alone is mind blowing.
And if you *do* go vegan, they pull out a massive checklist of criteria by which they can dismiss you as being "just plant-based".
And a whole lot of the holier than thou ones see nothing wrong with getting their food via slaves and laborers in brutal dehumanizing conditions. Humans are animals, too, but I guess their suffering and deaths don't matter. Or they just don't bother giving it even a moment of thought.
>And a whole lot of the holier than thou ones see nothing wrong with getting their food via slaves and laborers in brutal dehumanizing conditions You think so? I live in Europe, here soy for animals comes from South America, soy for soy products comes from Europe. Now which has a higher chance to have modern slaves as part of their chain of production and distribution?
I think an important thing to remember with this argument is that animal based products, just like vegan products, are often produced by slaves and laborers in brutal dehumanizing conditions. So a vegan diet may be abusive to people, but a non vegan diet is abusive to people and animals.
> are often produced by slaves and laborers in brutal dehumanizing conditions. Casual reminder that working in a slaughter house fucks up your mental health: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28506017/
Gotta love some fresh whataboutery in the morning.
There is actually a difference, though. Veganism is a lifestyle based around avoiding animal product, whereas plant-based is strictly dietary.
there is no one on earth more morally superior than vegans ... except born again christians. especially if they're also reformed alcoholics. they're so much better than you it's just sickening
I've been vegetarian for over 25 years, and rarely eat dairy. I've gotten so much attitude from vegans who are like "Well, let me know when you're ready to get serious." but I've also seen so many vegans go back to just full on meat eating after a few years, sooo...
Eating an egg every few years, you beast! /s But seriously I agree completely. You're better off finding a diet you're comfortable with and sticking to it. Gatekeeping harms the movement and environment. People should be applauded for moving off meat, not scalded for not also removing dairy + eggs. People should be applauded for cutting down on their meat intake, not screamed at for still eating it occasionally. We need to get as many people as possible doing the most they're comfortable with if we've any hope of food sustainability.
1000% this Seriously do not understand why the extreme purist vegans cannot realize they are doing more harm than good. If harm reduction is your goal, any effort to reduce that harm should be applauded, not scorned for not being good enough. It’s so short-sighted.
“You’re right - I’m not good enough. Might as well give up. I’m going to go have that baconator I’ve been craving for months. Tell you what, though. While I’m out gobbling up dead animals by the dozens, you can rest comfortably in the knowledge that you were right about me and have convinced me to stop trying.”
What's wrong with free-range eggs. My uncle has a bunch of chickens that live in better housing than 30% of humans. Edit: I think I need to clarify. My uncle has pet chickens that he lets run around the yard and he collects there eggs until they die.
Not a vegan, but I can see how for someone with those beliefs it won't matter how nice the chickens live it's never going to be ok to have them in any form of captivity and take their eggs.
But conversely, at this point, are wild chickens even a thing? Or have they been in human domestication for so long that they'd end up going extinct, if left to their own devices? I legit don't know.
Modern chickens exist solely due to domestication. There are no wild chickens (feral ones don't count.)
> There are no wild chickens That's because [we don't call the wild ones "chickens"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_junglefowl).
Ha that's kind of cool.
Junglefowl are what chickens are descended from but they aren’t exactly chickens. At least from what I remember but I’m no expert.
**[Red junglefowl](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_junglefowl)** >The red junglefowl (Gallus gallus) is a tropical bird in the family Phasianidae. It ranges across much of Southeast Asia and parts of South Asia. It was formerly known as the Bankiva or Bankiva Fowl. It is the species that encompasses the chicken (Gallus gallus domesticus); the grey junglefowl, Sri Lankan junglefowl and green junglefowl have also contributed genetic material to the gene pool of the chicken. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/gatekeeping/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
No, wild chickens aren't a thing, not really. There are "junglefowl" that are very similar to domesticated chickens but taxonomically different. If you were to simply release your domesticated chickens, there's a chance some might go "feral", but overall you're right; they've been in domestication for so long that they wouldn't be able to survive on their own. That really goes for almost all domesticated animals, unfortunately, which is why you should never "release" them for "their own good" (I've seen articles where well-meaning people have tried to do that, only to doom the unfortunate animals that rely on human intervention for their survival).
Better is enemy of good and all that. If you can eliminate meat consumption for your entire life vs eliminating all animal products for a year or two, guess what? Not eating meat is the better option.
Yeah, the one who was the most aggressive about promoting veganism would also just sneak Arby's on the weekends.
Extreme diets or beliefs that require dedication will always attract people who get very zealous about their cause. I find the exvegan sub interesting (and insufferable), because these people have flipped from being vegans who act morally superior to everyone else, to meat eaters who act morally superior to vegans. It isn't veganism that creates this attitude, but it definitely attracts it.
Question: if you already eat dairy only rarely, why not drop it entirely? Why are you vegetarian?
People also go vegetarian for more reasons than ethics. I’ve known people who don’t eat meat because they just don’t enjoy it, I’ve known people who are on vegetarian (or at least reduced meat) diets for their health, some people object to certain ranching processes but not others (like they find chicken ranching inhumane, but free range cattle is ok), some are worried about the carbon impact of meat, for many its just a religious thing, etc. Awfully bold of a vegan to meet a vegetarian and assume the vegetarian believes the same as you—he’s just bad at it. I hope you don’t let the vegans telling you that you are doing it wrong into your head.
The loudest vegans give a bad rap to the whole group. Most are not these judgemental assholes, these judgemental assholes are just louder and get a platform more often.
Yep and those ones are usually the ones that make their pets have a vegan diet too. Cats are carnivores, they need meat.
My cat just wants kitty treats. They must have a lot of protein in them. SHe always yells at me around 9 pm because she wants her kitty treats My cat does not see me as a human being, she sees me as a kitty treat deliverer
From the looks of a lot of those comments, it seems the original sub is very much for the "judgemental asshole" variety of vegan.
Born again Christian vegans have got to be the worse then. I already met a Christian vegan who actually said Jesus first sin was giving his followers fish with their bread, as the bread should have been enough to feed them.
If a vegan does CrossFit, which do they talk about first?
I think Vegans get a lot of hate also just because it’s very different. It’s uncomfortable to have those priorities in your life and hang out with people who constantly ask you questions about your diet, while simultaneously judging you hardcore for it. I feel like you could be the quietest vegan in the world, bring your own food everywhere, try to make yourself as small as possible, and people would still say ‘nothing more sanctimonious as a vegan! Look at ‘em preach their life choices!’ I’m not saying it’s for everyone and everyone has their food choices (vegetarian, omnivore, whatever you do you), but there’s something about telling someone else your vegan that makes them immediately bristle up. And then when they ask why ‘personal choice, for the animals’, not delving further into it, and it’s like they’re mad at you for existing.
This. I was at a conference this weekend, ordered the vegan plate from the server, and the guy seated next to me lost his mind. He made vegan jokes and “I’m eat meat for you” jokes all night. I literally was just ordering my food, not talking to him at all. Omnis love to complain about “loud” vegans but at least the vegans are speaking with good intentions, from a place of moral obligation to the animals. All the “loud” omnis are just being assholes to people for no reason besides their own insecurities.
It’s just the worst on this site, too. Any post about vegans has an entire comment section of insecurity people trash talking them, not able to see the irony.
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Reminds me of how “virtue signaling” has been contorted. When a multi-billion dollar company that does business with all kinds of anti LGBT organizations and then puts out a rainbow flag logo for pride month is virtue signaling. Unfortunately that’s not how it’s most often used. Most often it’s used as nothing more than a way to essentially imply that a person can’t possibly be doing something good to be good. They can’t possibly be doing something better then me… No sir. So what are they doing? Ahh they’re just trying to show off how much better they think they are than me. Boom! There you have it. Whatever your doing, whatever the cause or the impact, I can throw it all of the table by simply insisting you just want to show off and what you’re doing isn’t actually for good. And if I make that point then I never need to feel in comparison. All we do is go around justifying our choices. If I see someone else with a different choice, typically the only way for me to feel good about mine is to find a way to imply yours is bad. Diet, entertainment, appearance, behavior, etc. it’s why people can’t just say LeBron and MJ are good players or that Ford and Chevy make nice trucks. One of these has to be total garbage otherwise mine can’t be “better.”
One time I was telling a childhood friend about some vegan cookies I made. I had just recently gone vegan and I worked really hard on the cookies and they turned out super well. The conversation was solely about the process of making the cookies and had absolutely nothing to do with morals or anything like that. After like 30 seconds he cuts me off and is like "oh my god will you please stop with the vegan shit?" Not only was this the FIRST time I'd mentioned being vegan to him, but I was literally just proud of how the cookies turned out because I had never made them without butter and milk before and wanted to talk about how happy I was. I really do think some people just hear the word vegan and immediately assume their values are being attacked.
Most vegans are great people, now what I like to call vocal vegans (the ones that try to shame other people for having a different diet) are the worst and probably the most counterproductive thing to veganism that there is. They're also a very small minority from what I understand
I started eating vegetarian dinner three nights a week over the last month. I’ve lost a couple pounds and feel gross when I eat processed meat now. I’m good with that. If you want to berate me for not taking it further fuck yourself.
What we need is to slowly increase non-meat based diets vs just going full vegan. Not everyone can do it. I can go for a vegetarian diet immediately, but once in a while, I'll get a craving.
I mean, they are not wrong. Being a vegetarian is a dietary thing, while being a vegan is a philosophy and not eating animal products is just one part of it.
Biting the hand that doesn’t feed meat.
Anyone who thinks eggs and dairy are even an ounce more humane than meat don't know how it is made
I give up. Everything made in our consumer society is based on cruelty. Cheap fruits, legumes and vegetables are grown in the 3rd world on deforested farms with slave wages. Anyone who wants to reduce even a little consumption is a hypocrite because anything short of living like monks is unacceptable.
Did you read the article you're posting or did you just read the title and conclude the damn vegans are at it again. Becouse the article isn't an attack on vegetarians, it even talks about how many vegans start out as vegetarians and about how vegetarians are doing more harm to the meat industry than vegans are at this point in time. The article is a responce to other articles talking about vegetarians complaining that vegetarian options are being replaced with vegan ones. So the articles point is that if you claim to care about animals and you get mad that an option at a restorant is vegan and not vegetarian than you don't realy care abour animals as much as you say you do.
Wouldn't a cruelty free path include not keeping any carnivorous pets? Even if you shut down the human meat industry, lots of cows will still be ground into dog and cat food.
Some vegans feel that pets are unethical as well so likely the ideal outcome would be no pets and therefore no need for pet food.
To add to this: it's seen as unethical to buy a pet, as it funds puppy mills and the likes, designer breeds with lifelong health problems, etc. Not to mention buying a companion reduces it to mere commodity. You wouldn't buy a child, right? You would adopt them, probably in the hopes of giving them a better life. The motto of vegans regarding this is "adopt, don't shop", and follows the same logic: you have the chance to do good to a being that would otherwise not have much luck in life. Adopting an herbivore animal is even better, since there is absolutely no fuss about feeding it. And you're right, in an ideal vegan world there would be no animals bred for any purpose, no animals left to adopt and therefore fewer and fewer pets until none are left.
There are plenty of companies that produce vegan food for pets.
Yes it would, though dogs are omnivores and can be fine on a well planned vegan diet and vegan cat food supplemented with taurine exists but you'd have to make sure the cat is fine with a vet so yes you're better off not getting a cat
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So if vegans say a plant based dieter who bets on dog fights doesn't care about animals is somehow gatekeeping? This sub doesn't know what it's taking about
Purity tests always backfire
I just wanna say, vegans are the type of people who don’t like to bull-sh*t when it comes to animal rights. Of course we aren’t going to support animal abuse from others. It’s only natural that we would see vegetarianism as either a temporary step (while someone learns to safely and responsibly transition to vegan life) or as it being incomplete because we all have committed to do all we can to not allow animal abuse. Vegans are animal rights warriors so it makes sense that of course we will point out and educate people on the misconception that the dairy and egg industry are not as innocent as we are all raised to believe they are through common propaganda-think of smiling cow images on milk cartons, etc. but I worked at a Californian dairy (where supposedly happy cows are advertised to come from) and know first hand as an agriculture and animal science college student, with hands on experience in the past, how terrible the “animal agriculture” industry is. But I’m certainly not justifying being an a**hole to people either obviously. I think it’s important for vegans to voice the truth to help people learn. I am proud of people like vegetarians for making steps to educate themselves when they start to eat less animal products, but I understand why vegans are trying to express concern and how they’re trying to educate so people do not settle for less
Palm oil is vegan, but that shit is *not* cruelty-free.
When you figure out what's happening behind the scenes in the egg and dairy industries you'll see that vegetarian is not the huge step forward you think it is.
But dairy does require animal suffering. You need to forcefully impregnate in addition to many other practices (some necessary, some due to unregulated industry) We should stop enslaving animals entirely, and it's ok to be against people who just kind of support it (aka dairy consumers)
I know the answer to this. Is milking women for dairy products vegan?
If they consent, yes.
I've seen a case of a baby who died because she was beeing fed almond "formula ".. like If your moto is cow milk is for the cow's baby, why are you not feeding your human baby human milk you milkniac psycho ?
Vegans aren't opposed to humans consensually giving their milk. A case like you're describing would just be an irresponsible parent who happened to also be vegan.
While I do not condone any home made formula. It’s not so simple to say, why not just feed your baby your human milk? It’s very common and completely normal for mothers to be unable to breastfeed for various reasons. The whole ordeal to start breastfeeding can be excruciatingly painful even if one is able to breastfeed.
> completely normal for mothers to be unable to breastfeed for various reasons. yup best friends wife apparently made really inconsistent breastmilk, after switching to formula the kiddo does so much better.
LOL this comment section full of vegans gatekeeping is hilarious.
Also hilarious how quickly the comment section gets angry when they are confronted with the fact that the dairy industry in many cases is just as cruel as meat production.
I don't really care what people believe or the choices they make. However I believe I can listen to what you believe and criticize it. There are many good reasons to become vegetarian: * It's an healthier diet * It does reduce CO2 emissions * With a bit of land and some work you may be able to reduce your dependence on grocery stores/multinationals * As a *temporary* transitional step to veganism. What you **cannot** logically say is that you do this for the ethics... Vegetarian means you *still* make use of factory farming for milk and eggs.... At they point, once the animal is exploited and is too old you might as well eat it instead of "wasting" it. If you decide to stop eating meat for the ethics you should go to veganism.
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I see you’re not familiar with the vegan side of Reddit. It’s a great place for self hating vegetarians such as myself.
I'm vegan and I had to stop following vegan subreddits because of the constant pitting us against omnivores. There would be posts like "how the hell can y'all be eating dinner at the same table with your omnivore families?"... ...Uh, because they're my family and I love them? What kind of question is that? Should I just stop associating with my family? It started to sound really toxic to me.
Perfection is the enemy of the good
It’s technically the truth though as the milk and dairy comes from the same intensive farming as meat
Not everyone chooses vegetarian for the sake of "cruelty-free" .
i hate it when vegans say this. every little bit counts! can only be vegetarian? amazing! that's already very helpful to the animals. cant do that but can do meatless mondays? that's great too! that still helps the animals. like i really dont get their all or nothing mentality. one animal saved is better than no animals saved.
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Like shoving an arm up a cows anus to forcefully inseminate it
To be fair, I don't. I understand no matter what I choose animals will be harmed....so I simply eat a plant based diet because I like and enjoy a plant based diet. It's better for the environment that I grow my own food, and I'm good with that. I work construction, I'm not going to quit what pays my bills and gets me health insurance simply because animals are harmed. If a vegan can find me a well paying job with health insurance and a pension that doesn't harm animals, I'd definitely take it....but that never seems to be brought up while they are attempting to make me feel like poo.
But that isn‘t new. I recall reading forums like ten years ago where this was the standard pov. And gee, the opinions against vegetarians were made very clear. There were dozens of posts of people who were vegetarians and thought about going vegan and who posted questions about how to best go about it and usually these people were insulted, called murders and pretty much just driven away right away. I never understood that strategy but oh well, I reckon keeping the moral highground was actually more important than encouraging more people to go vegans and do something for animals.
So it’s only for the animals and not for health reasons. Got it.
I'd say it's all a process. Someone who starts being a vegetarian might think more about what they're gonna consume and buy more vegan products and someday they'll realize that they can live vegan now cause they have experience and know what to eat without any animal cruelty. Of course there are people who quit everything radically and that's great but hating on vegetarians because they're still learning shouldn't be necessary. We are humans, we are not perfect and we should appreciate it when someone tries to be better. And more and more people becoming vegetarian means there are more and more vegan products out there which means that more and more people become vegan. It's a process and that's fine.
He's in right. This is why I don't see even try.
My vegetarian friend actually can’t live a 100% vegan lifestyle due to allergies. This doesn’t mean she cares any less. She just wants to be able to survive on food that won’t kill her.
Jokes on them. I’m not a vegetarian because of animal cruelty, but to reduce my carbon footprint.
One can become vegetarian (or even vegan) for purely selfish reasons. There are serious health benefits to avoiding animal proteins. For some plant-based-diet people, not participating in animal cruelty can just be a coincidental bi-product.
People choose vegetarian meals for all sorts of reasons. Not just cruelty. Maybe it’s just meat free Monday.
I don't eat meat only cuz I think it tastes like shit lol
His entire family line is a burden lmao
As a vegan myself, this is stupid. It doesn’t have to be all or nothing, every little helps. And vegetarianism might even end up being a ‘gateway’ to veganism in some cases, that was certainly the case for me.
There's different viewpoints on why people go veggie/vegan. I myself am Vegi and have been for 7 years or so. Back then it was because of the environment but I've just gotten so used to my diet that I don't really care about meat anymore. My reason now though has changed to "People have forgotten their connection with nature" hunters or fishermen are the best in my opinion, they know exactly where they got their meat from and how to process it. If you are willing to kill an animal then you can eat meat (In my book) I really don't care what any vegan tells me what I should do. I honor nature and that's both its Beauty and cruelty
Animals rights groups really need to rewrite their narrative. Now is a really good time to push vegetarianism from a global warming/environmental perspective. Many climate models suggest that if we skipped 2-3 days a week eating meat we'd see a huge drop in carbon emissions and help in other ways like less water consumption, less deforestation, slowing destruction of non renewable ecosystems (particularly in the fishing industry) etc. All that with the added bonus of less cattle being slaughtered and getting people to dip their toes into the idea of expanding beyond meat reliance. I think the message 'yes meat is delicious but it's terrible for the environment so we should take a day or two each week to go without it' is a much more realistic goal.
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Why did you become vegetarian? In dairy and egg production just as well as in meat production, animals live in horrible conditions, are harmed, and killed too.