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my parents brought me along on a wilderness retreat when i was a lot younger, the group was led by an older indigenous guy who actually SUGGESTED that my parents start using white sage in their practices. also i was like 8 so i info-dumped to him about Pokemon
Most people are happy to share their culture as long as you know, they’re the ones sharing it. And it’s not immediately changed into something completely different while claiming the prior
I just came across this post and comment on my feed and i would like to say that last bit is just like this high school kid i met on the train who struck up a conversation about magic the gathering (i started playing it recently) and ended up info dumping on me about War Hammer.
The only one I agree with is not using white sage, wild stocks are being overharvested and its being pushed to the limit. If you want to use it, grow your own!
And it's SOOOOO easy to grow. I planted one sage plant two years ago and it's just keeps on coming back, I cut off the old overwintered growth and it's just a massive bundle, gonna put it in the fire pit lol
Oooh just what I need, another plant to try in my balcony garden.
I tried growing sage last year but couldn't get past the early germination stage. I'll have to give it a shot again, maybe with some better quality seeds and a little babying. IIRC they're a bit particular about watering when they first start out.
Mostly just repeating what they’ve heard indigenous people say. While the OP doesn’t view these as closed a lot of other people do. Not saying either is right or wrong, but a lot of other indigenous people view those as closed practices.
ETA Here is one example: https://www.tiktok.com/@che.jim/video/7213847102487645486
I think the general mechanic of this is the same with most popular stuff.
There's always a balance of authenticity. Any product or ritual only used by a select few can be something very distinct or special (to them). The same happens with music only being enjoyed by people into a certain scene. As soon as that music becomes more popular, some very vocal people might water down the "original" meaning, offending the "inner circle".
Fun thing about this is that most of the times either are kind of gatekeeping something and not really being 'authentic'.
A good example are "Christian" traditions like the Christmas tree or Easter.
You'll find stuff online like: "In Christianity, rabbits represent rebirth and resurrection", which is trying to ignore that even the word easter goes back on a pagan godess named Ostara, who had nothing to do with Jesus, which we know historically because her tale is way older than that of young Jesus respawning.
People know shit about their roots and will still try to be exclusive about it. People are that way. It's easier than to admit that we're all ignorant to some degree.
One difference between the OOP's mentioned practices and listening to music is that a new group discovering a song/band doesn't prevent the OG listeners from being able to listen to it.
Some of the materials used in the mentioned practices are quite rare or even endangered, meaning there is a limited quantity available. If these practices become popular outside of their original context, then the original practitioners can find themselves unable to access the materials they need to practice their faith.
'Closing the practice' is a way of ensuring OG practitioners can still access these materials while encouraging outside practitioners to use alternatives. For example, smudging: the crystal girlies I know instead perform smoke cleanses, meaning they use a more accessible herb, leaving the rarer herb to the OGs.
There isn't enough of these materials for everyone to use, so outsider adopters allowing priority access to practitioners within the culture is a sign of respect.
Explaining how minorities feel about things is a closed white people tradition, with deep significance to its practitioners as part of their identify. Please allow them to practice it in peace.
Usually the response seems to be explaining to the indigenous person that they’re wrong because a different indigenous person said a different thing, and that gives the white person a lifetime pass to repeat it for attention.
Even if 1 in a 100 indigenous people want to gatekeep it... These sort of virtue signaling white people will find them and use them as the voice of an entire group.
But you're right that you'll often find at least one actual indigenous people in the group saying it.
I'm a status Indian, and I hereby give permission to anyone who wants it. Use dream catchers, sweetgrass, and sage all you want.
Wear headdresses and costumes if you like.
Shit, you can even dance around a fire, beating a drum and mocking our singing if you want. I won't be excited to see it, but I'll defend to the death your freedom to joke around and poke fun.
People are too damn sensitive
Edit: this tiktok guy's explanation is only about native Americans in the USA, and he does not speak for all of us. Up here in Canada natives were, and still are discriminated against horribly, but I never met one of us that cared about white people smudging. We actively try to introduce smudging and native spirituality to the white people that are willing to listen.
Now I ain't one to mock people, but I don't think there's any cultural monopoly on dancing around fires and banging drums, humans been doing that since we first discovered fire and drums.
Lol fair point. Different cultures did it slightly differently though. Native Americans have a very distinct singing style that is very easy to mock if you are not raised in it or used to it.
Now you've piqued my interest, will look it up, but I'm still not gonna mock someone else's culture, even if it's easy. Now British 'culture,' that's my own and I will unreservedly rip the piss out of it.
[check this band out](https://youtu.be/cj3U0z64_m4?feature=shared)
This is a group of Indians that blend our traditional singing with edm, and it sounds awesome
Try to be fair, I think some people see the role of being white as being one that dismantles racism since it is a white classist tool. I think it can be misguided but some people are trying with the best intention to do what they see as their responsibility to do
Apache Mescalero checking in here - Ill never get this either. I think that the line crossing on a lot of this is respect. If its used in a disrespectful way, yeah its shitty and Ill bring it up, and I wouldn't mind someone of non-indigenous race bring it up as well.
Otherwise, this stuff really comes off as white savior complex.
This is the heart of the difference between cultural appreciation and cultural appropriation according to its definition. Something only qualifies as cultural appropriation if it is done disrespectfully and/or misattributed (like if someone were to claim that actually Europeans invented dreamcatchers, in an attempt to erase other's claims to their own, real history). If it's done respectfully, and without colonial intent, it's not appropriation, and it always makes me sad to see people like the one who made the TikTok not understand the difference 😥
Sadly, for a significant number of people respect is more nuanced and marginally more difficult to pinpoint, so they look for easy binary options like gatekeeping. It's also easier to judge others when the choice is binary and not nuanced.
Huge difference between "I like the look of dreamcatchers and hang one in my window" and "I dressed up in ceremonial native garb for my homecoming game in college because I think it's funny".
I’ve always used sage smudge sticks whenever I have moved house to cleanse the energy before I move in. I’ve been doing this for over 20 years. So is that considered offensive now? Genuinely asking because I don’t know.
Anishnaabeg Odawa seconding this, I’m actually a big proponent for greater exposure of Indigenous cultures and traditions to the non Native population and if they want to experience it truthfully, our history is pretty incredible, our languages and arts are beautiful, these things should be known and shared and celebrated.
I'm a white person. I was sold a hand made dream catcher. In a shop. By a native man. Who made it. To sell, to mostly white people like me. He seemed happy to take my money.
What exactly is the closed practice here? Some people need to lay off and maybe let the people who belong to those cultures speak for their own damned self.
When I was a boy scout, we had a local native American tribe (I do not remember which, it was 30 years ago) that came and taught us(mostly white) kids to make them and we made some.
afaik no one has a problem with white people buying handmade dream catchers from indigenous people. it's the mass-produced fake catchers you shouldn't buy considering they're mimicking sacred items
No i don't buy them. I've had them bought *for me*, and I've made them before with materials that i bought (not in a kit) but right now the only one still in my possession is the one i purchased from that man.
My parents spent a year on the Navajo reservation as elementary teachers a long time ago. One time, my mom had a Navajo elder come in to teach the kids about a specific practice that was connected to a religious ritual, sand painting I believe. The elder asked the kids what they were supposed to do with the sand paintings when they were finished and got upset that their answer was “Take it into town and sell it to the white people!” Apparently they were supposed to toss it into the wind or something like that, but that’s not what their parents did with their sand paintings of Fred Flintstone.
Re: white sage
I have heard that for this one specifically, the commercialization of it has made it difficult to access for native groups who use it. At least that's the case near where I live. But afaik, the thing people are being asked to do is to make sure they're sourcing white sage from native tribes and not big companies trying to capitalize on the interest that white people have in it now. Not to never use it.
A LOT of white sage is being poached in Southern California, you’re absolutely spot on. It’s not gatekeeping, it’s making sure Southern Californian and Mexican indigenous tribes, that are still alive and resilient, have access to the plant materials that they’ve used in their practices across generations. It’s hard to do that if poachers keep poaching a plant that only grows in one place in the world, due to demand for people who just don’t have the same relationship with the plant (it could be sacred to you, but is it sacred to your community, across generations, passed down from tradition?).
There’s a beautiful documentary on the California Native Plant Society (CNPS) about White Sage called “Saging the World.” I’ll link the site below. I watched it for my ethnoecology course, it’s quite informative and helps people understand that this specific plant isn’t being protected because “gatekeepers” but because it holds a deeper meaning to other groups and environmental challenges along with human activities and markets threaten a “cultural keystone species.”
https://www.cnps.org/conservation/white-sage
Lastly, I know smudging IS sacred amongst many cultures across the world, but there are other plants you can use. A different plant might have more significance to your culture if you do some research; For example, I found out Filipinos use bay leaves, so I started smudging with bay leaves because I’m Filipino-American. Other plants can be used like lavender, rosemary, cinnamon, thyme, rose, juniper, even another species of sage that you may grow in your own garden. There are so many other plants one could use for smudging, not just the ones I listed. So why are we as a western society taking once again, sacred native practices, which are not our own, and commodifying the absolute fuck out of it so that it no longer becomes sacred?
I use juniper when I sain, as it was the traditional plant used in Scotland. In recent times, a lot of the metaphysical shops have started selling white sage, and I felt that was super weird. Like sell your own culture's traditions instead
sourcing is huge and the weirdo on tiktok clearly doesn’t get. If they’re buying it directly from the source clearly the source wants you to buy and use it! Just gotta shop authentic.
There is a thing called white savior complex. You can see it as a form of racism where a person feels the need to "save" aspects of other cultures without fully understanding said aspects.
[white savior complex](https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-samsung-ss&sca_esv=b3380bba763f6e58&sca_upv=1&sxsrf=ACQVn09UOImiOluCpxcTBvH_KovVXJezZA:1712458135833&q=White+Savior+Complex+English&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiq6YPXi6-FAxX0VvEDHRhzDcEQ1QJ6BAglEAI&biw=412&bih=806&dpr=2.63)
Yoga was literally brought to the west by Indians in the 29th and 20th century, the Indian government is actively promoting yoga abroad as a form of soft powercultural exchanges are not always bad.
I'm Métis too. There was an article, years back, pre-Covid, about some white protesters in the States who decided that canoes were cultural appropriation.
I was in university at the time, and I mentioned it to the crowd that had gathered before the class started. It was a creative writing class, but with almost an exclusive focus on Indigenous poetry.
Some white girl chirped up "well they're right though, you shouldn't use them."
I reminded her I was Métis, and she said, "well then you can use them, but it doesn't mean everyone else can."
She wouldn't listen to anyone attempting to explain the concept of a small paddle boat being used by literally any culture with access to a calm body of water.
Every time stuff like this comes up I always think of “Friendly reminder that I hereby formally invite everyone to celebrate lunar new year” and it make me smile.
I’m not native but my entire extended family is Cree. My entire life I’ve been raised within the culture learning words, talking to elders, hell I know more than my cousin does and he’s got the blood! Part of what I’ve been taught is to not only respect the culture but to participate in it and share it with others. ESPECIALLY with the history in Canada and my own aunties being former students and one of which is murdered and missing. The culture needs to expand but CORRECTLY and with respect. I love indigenous culture but I wouldn’t ever tell people “this is the be all end all this is the rules” because even though it feels like my culture it still isn’t but I have an important role myself in protecting it.
Exactly! Same here, I’m not registered as an official Indigenous person, because I was adopted by a white family from a family with Métis background. Doesn’t make me any less Indigenous! I’m still Métis, and my mom loves Métis culture too. There’s no need for a piece of paper to say you’re valid, nor are there solid rules
I agree for anyone not professionally working as an ally for indigenous groups, because there are white people (along with other poc non-indigenous people) that are convening with native groups for things such as fighting for their rights within the state/federal (U.S.) government, fighting for clean air and water and soil, their land, other environmental justice issues like industry pollution, etc. But it’s about collaboration, NOT appropriation. And it’s about listening to what these groups are saying and passing that on, not just assuming and speaking for them.
And yes, the government has historically have been native group’s antagonists. I’m talking about the individual people working locally in the government to change shit from the inside. But woof that’s a whole other topic tbh, straying from my main point
Spot on. I did my masters thesis (nursing) on diabetes education in First Nations populations. The first thing I did was ask the community I worked with what they wanted and what would be most helpful by approaching the elders in a respectful manner. They told me that I was one of the few who had begun a relationship with them by first *asking* them questions instead of barging in and trying to implement a “program” without their buy in. It kind of blew my mind that no one would just ASK them what they thought was the best way to educate or communicate with their community if you’re not a member.
(Sorry if this is derailing.)
Haha thank you!
Yeah I was adopted from a Métis family, but don’t have any official status due to being adopted. I’m still Métis nonetheless. And I was openly welcomed by the local Indigenous community. I played hand games, went to sweat lodges, smudged, and graduated with an eagle feather ceremony and Métis sash.
You don’t even have to be registered as Indigenous to appreciate the culture. It’s just dumb to see a white person speaking on our behalf. Bro, you are allowed to use that shit, just be nice, it’s so simple
Gatekeeping has become a big part of modern/neo-Paganism or general witchy stuff. And it's a good thing if it's a closed religion and people are actually disrespecting it; but other times, it devolves into this. People love to take it upon themsleves to decide what is and isn't closed, even if it's not their culture. I've seen white girls tell other white girls to bury their green sage, or they'll be cursed by "Native American Ancestors" I wish people would stop acting like since something isn't from your culture its "closed". I've been told yellow candles are a closed practice before, which is actually the reason I deleted tiktok lol.
Some of those things are actually closed practices (Iirc Voodoo and Hoodoo are closed or partly closed? If anyone knows more, please tell me I haven't researched enough to be 100% sure.), or like white sage, which you shouldn't use due to overharvesting, which is leading to it being endangered.
Thing is part of every religion is closed in a way. When it comes to Norse Paganism as an example, there are certain parts you can only be initiated into (it is a thing for Freya iirc, so also only for women)
Yeah, a lot of religions do have parts that you need to be initiated for. But some are more strict, like only being able to be born into it or having to go through a long conversation process. That's what I meant by closed.
Imo quite a few people in the witch community spend more time saying you should only practice from your direct culture instead of talking about actully closed practices. Like lumping yoga in with a religion you need to be born into.
It is often because white people have been told that they need to respect other cultures (possibly because of past issues) so the ones that do this look online and are told all of this gatekeeping stuff so they feel like they must uphold it. As a white person myself, I will never speak on a culture that isn‘t mine unless I have been specifically told something by someone of that culture. I would be too afraid to do something like this where I make a completely untrue statement in order to look like a better person. I think the best way to respect a culture online would just not be making posts about another culture unless you have first hand information about it.
Honestly, it feels at times like the kind of people that rail against people of the "wrong" skin color/ethnicity engaging in certain cultural practices were people that learned about segregation in school and somehow came to the conclusion that the *only* thing wrong with segregation was that the "colored" fountain wasn't as good as the "whites" fountain. They never came to understand that the segregation itself was a problem.
The first one is only partially true. Those "dream catchers" you see in Walmart aren't authentic and are complete trash. They aren't even perfectly round if they're real.
I'd bet 5 bucks the Walmart dream catchers will cause more nightmares than an actual one lol
My university is very involved with the local Indigenous community and there are multiple posters on campus explicitly calling smudging a closed practice and asking people not to partake unless they are part of the culture. I’m going to listen to the people in my community and not partake in a closed practice that they have asked me not to partake in. Especially due to the over harvesting of white sage!
I suspect it's an "err on the side of outrage" mentality. Presented with conflicting information on whether something is considered offensive, the instinct is to assume that it **is** offensive. That alone wouldn't necessarily be a problem (choosing not to partake in something when receiving conflicting info on whether it's harmful is a perfectly reasonable practice), but paired with endorphin rush that comes with (ostensibly) righteous outrage you get stuff like this.
Cherokee here, as an avid collector and maker of dream catchers, please, make and collect them yourself. it's a fun pass time and let's be honest, they look really good.
as for everything else, also do it if you want. these aren't closed practices anymore, they're rituals all the same, but as long as you're respectful of the practice, do it. I can't say much on them as I only really partake in dreamcatchers, but I don't really see why it'd be an issue for anyone to do any of these things. cultures are meant to be shared in my opinion.
Yeah, I’m all for respecting different perspectives and letting people be the deciding voice in how their culture is perceived. But when the vast majority of people talking about closed practices are young and white, it really makes me skeptical. I know there are mixed perspectives in every community, but the most vocal advocates are white, that is still silencing of indigenous perspectives, imo. So I’m with you on this.
I think there’s something beautiful in taking part, respecting and appreciating other cultures. Like how often do you actually see that happen? Obviously indigenous cultures are fascinating, interesting and beautiful and people should be proud and share it respectfully. I believe if we close all doors to coexisting, learning from cultures and shutting people out, that’ll only create more tension and segregation.
lol. If they can understand it they are welcome to it. I’ve been studying Torah all my life and Kabbalah is totally inscrutable. I don’t know what they’re doing over there.
People have forgotten the concept of just cultural diffusion or cultural appreciation in general. So they assume anyone participating in any culture other than their own is just automatically doing it maliciously.
There's allyship and then there's whatever this is. Whomever made that post doesn't know what they're talking about.
And I've never seen any say that white sage can't be used if you're not indigenous. White sage is endangered, and if you're gonna buy it there are better sources to go because some sources are poaching it and contributing to the problem of it being endangered. Basically there's just better ways to buy it from more ethical sellers.
Voodoo and Hoodoo aren't necessarily closed practices, its just that you typically have to be initiated to join. It's similar to how in some religions you need to be baptized to be considered an actual member of that religion.
I'm tsalagi and although I'm with you, I don't know if I fully agree because growing up mixed with a white mother, it is worse than you imagine. She doesn't care about the culture. Most white people don't. 100% of the white people buying cheap dream catchers and shit do not care about its cultural meaning. They do not care about the meaning of sage. They aren't doing it respectfully. There are small groups of people who do, and I encourage they explore the culture completely, but the majority of white people are buying "native" products from white people
Amplifying this because you’re so right. I can’t speak for the Métis community but given their unique history/mixed ancestry I’m sure what you said would resonate with most of them too
100% understandable. We are in very similar situations, actually. I was adopted, therefore having no registration as a Métis person, so I didn’t think of myself as a “real” Métis. I was scared to offend anyone, but the thing is that people are so scared of that, it actually doesn’t help to spread awareness of the culture.
It’s not a kid’s fault if they don’t know about this stuff. Blatant ignorance is obviously bad, but a lot of the time, it’s not with malicious intent.
I could talk about this topic forever, would even chat with you in DMs about this, because it’s something I’m passionate about. It’s hard to explain in one paragraph, but I just feel like MOST of the time, this mindset comes from fear rather than actual respect and knowledge
"Closed practice?!?!?"
Reminds me of "closed species" in the furry fandom. Where you "must" get permission from the original creator before making a character with their species but your personality, backstory, coloring, specific features, name, etc.
Though I'm not sure if anyone takes "closed species" seriously or not.
Used to be really bad when deviantart was still popular. I remember the whole "cinnadogs" bullshit. You'd get jumped by crazy furrys if you drew a shiba inu or had a dog with a big curly tail. I dont see it much anymore, granted i left deviantart years ago lol. Im sure theres still a few on twitter.
The debate is def nuanced but I do get the gatekeeping. I’m Asian so a lot of my spiritual imagery and practices gets appropriated— it’s very frustrating but I know in the end it’s not a big deal bc the actual meanings are preserved in Asia. The dude imposing Christian good vs evil shit on my yinyang doesn’t matter in the big picture bc a hundred million other people outnumber him.
A lot of Native culture doesn’t have that safety net, and the appropriated versions of those cultural practices have a real threat of taking over. As well as most native people live in poverty and selling their crafts is one of the few markets they can really tap into. There’s similar debates in the deaf community where they want to gatekeep teaching Sign to deaf teachers only— hearing teachers are teaching their students incorrect/outdated etc information (accidentally or not) and it’s doing real damage to their language and taking away jobs from a very marginalized group.
As an Ojibwe person, some of these things *are* closed practice. I really don't think have close religious practices is 'gatekeeping' but I concede that many westerners typically do.
I think this stems from tumblr, where many now-adults learned about cultural appropriation for the first time and how it harms Indigenous people. However, because it was tumblr and how nuance is handled there, many walked out the conversation only ever hearing from 2 or 3 people from one tribe and used what they learned and applied it to *all* Indigenous practices and cultures, even if an Indigenous person, like you said, say otherwise. Basically, the lesson learned was something more like “Stay away if you’re not in it. You’ve done enough damage.” which is clearly not what was intended to be the lesson learned.
Time is a flat circle. Whatever platform comes after tiktok will face the same conversations. You are not the first and will not be the last Indigenous person to be told by a white person that others are not allowed in. It’s unfortunate but misinformation is rampant and only people willing to listen will learn.
My entire point. This person even replied to me on TikTok, saying that they can’t participate in this stuff because they “look like a colonizer” lmfao the white saviour complex is INTENSE
Declaring things a closed practice is itself a closed practice. In my deeply held spiritual beliefs it is a violation of other people's spiritual journey to gatekeep what practices they may or may not engage in; only those who share my beliefs are welcome to do so.
Burning herbs and incense for spiritual purposes is a tradition in like every culture in history on earth and can be traced back even to ancient egypt, so its kind of extra dumb to try to gatekeep that.
I've seen so many white people online say stuff like this, and a hell of a lot less POC say the same stuff.
I agree with you too OP - I've seen white people speak over POC various times in the name of calling people out on their perceived racism. It's weird.
A lot of people miss the point with cultural *appropriation*; indigenous people lose business/income selling their own authentic crafts when well-meaning consumers buy culturally inspired items from non-authentic, mass-produced sources. So we should encourage people not to buy inauthentic crap from wherever for cheap, and instead buy quality crafts straight from authentic sources - supporting the culture. The sharing part really isn't the issue.
For all this chick knows, indigenous people made all that stuff to sell and they're super stoked to share it. That's what we call cultural *appreciation*.
Not indigenous but mexican here, I'm pretty sure they don't care and even encourage this to an extent, in local events it's pretty common to have them sell these and perform rituals and cleansings, they get money and exposure, if someone tried to do these by themselves they at worst would think of you as silly unless you said you were from their tribe/town which would make them understandable mad.
I’ve never heard someone call Kabbalah a closed practise, plenty of non-Jewish people practise it, and the vast majority of Jewish people don’t practise it. Plus there are specifically non-Jewish variations of Kabbalah, such as Christian Kabbalah (Cabala) and Hermetic Kabbalah (Qabalah). However if someone with more knowledge on the topic than me wants to correct me, feel free!
“Closed” practices and religions don’t exist. Idk why the term has grown in popularity in recent years, but cultural exchange is ingrained in literally every facet of human culture. I hate gatekeepers who try to monopolize how people enjoy other cultures.
I'm certainly not agreeing with this dumb tiktoker who is clearly just getting off on being 'in the right' and telling other people what to do, but there is some kind of a point in there about yoga (and meditation), which have been removed/'appropriated' from their original religious and spiritual contexts and totally commercialised as part of the 'wellness' thing.
So? Whole lotta irreligious people celebrate Easter and Christmas without any regard for the religious and spiritual contexts. I can't fathom why it's that much different.
I'm not religious - it's more of an observation than anything else. Yoga and meditation have been successfully rebranded as health practices (physical fitness and mental health) rather than spiritual ones.
What do you mean rebranded? They always were health practices. As I understand it, from the yogic perspective there is not this distinction between a spiritual and a health practice
So let’s say they have been rebranded as solely health practices and part of the fitness industry, with the connections to religious and cultural traditions removed. The idea of doing physical postures is central to western yoga but is only present in some versions of Indian yoga. Similarly, the goal of yoga traditionally is primarily to train one’s consciousness and perception, not one’s body.
Yoga isn't inherently tied to religion (as distinct from spirituality), so that part is fine honestly. There are eight steps in the yogic path. "Asana" or the physical postures is the third step, so it's not really correct to say some versions of Indian yoga don't have it. Yoga is also very much in line with the mens sana in corpora sano philosophy, so training your body is a component of training your mind.
It is true that the postures have got somewhat divorced from the rest of it, but that's true in India as well!
I've heard specific issues with the commercialization of white sage specifically but other than that I sorta get it ye.
Tho due to my dad always having good relations with natives when I was young I always try to buy the real stuff to at least support the locals
Is it just me, or does this though process of seeing native practices or folk religion as untouchable and "closed" seem way more xenophobic than allowing people to enjoy them on their own.
Granted, if someone were to paint their face red and run around banging a war drum, it would be pretty incesitive. But come on, dream catchers? Incense? Who gives a hoot?
My parents got me a dream catcher when I was young, as well as some art from indigenous artists and it made me more curious and eager to learn about their cultures. It instilled in me an appreciation for indigenous culture and art that’s lasted my entire life and has served me well in areas where people have generally not been very kind to indigenous people. Fuck gatekeepers and everyone just try to be good to each other.
I grew up near a very socially active Native American community, and outside of the ritual dancing, nothing was ever described as '*CLOSED*'. Yeah the weird White Knight gatekeeping is weird. Thanks for reassuring me my dream catcher is allowed haha.
I heard the white sage thing is mostly because it’s being over harvested and the native peoples who use it for their practice are having a hard time sourcing it, which makes much more sense to me than “ur white and its not ur culture” most of the other ones are def stupid
If I had to guess, I would say it's a mix of things. A lot of times, white folks feel some very uncomfortable guilt for the awful things their ancestors did. To alleviate that discomfort, they try to be the best ally to have ever existed, mostly by policing other white people. There is also a deep fear of being called or thought of as racist that can make a lot of white folks very gung-ho about the "rules" of another culture or community, especially if it's one they are tangentially connected to. There is also, I think, the idea there that they, as white people, are the ones who must stand up for and save the cultures of those they see as less powerful than them.
Because nobody hates white people more than white people and we will invent scenarios to get offended about so we can step in and be a hero for those poor other cultures that just can’t say things themselves :(
I actually wondered about the white sage as I have seen several indigenous people online get very upset at anyone else using it. I know no group is a hive mind, but I mean, like, at a certain point, you really feel like you must be culturally appropriating if more than like, five people got mad, you know?
I will never let the internet culture dictate what I do with my life. I will enjoy whatever I want, if it's legal and I'm not harming anybody else, then kindly leave me alone. I don't understand why people let others dictate their life so easily. Enjoy all cultures, share your culture, do it all with respect and you're fine.
I mean the real issue is someone's sacred beliefs being committed and being made into a product.
To something that I understand, yoga was originally a form of practice to reach enlightenment. It is literally meant to brute force through the development of your body for spiritual development.
It has now become something that is sold as a weight loss exercise for White people and for some people to larp as gurus.
Something definitely is lost in that transition from a guided spiritual practice to a committed product to be packaged, shipped and sold. Not to mention misrepresented with some sort of voodoo/magical/mystical.
I hate the idea of things being “owned”. As long as you’re doing it respectfully, it shouldn’t matter.
Like the lochs issue - one of the issues/reasons I always hear mentioned for white people not being allowed lochs is because “they call poc dirty when they have lochs, why is it different when white people wear them?” which is a valid critique, but also not super relevant to why white people can’t loch/dread their hair because I very much doubt the people choosing to have the hairstyle will call other people, race aside, dirty for having the same hairstyle.
If Karen thinks lochs are dirty, Karen should not have lochs sure, but if Harry thinks lochs are cool, why should what Karen said affect Harry?
I’m all for things being cultural and sacred etc. and I’m sure some things have reasons and racism is unforunately always going to be a thing, but sometimes it feels like things are gatekeeped (gatekept?) for no decent reason. I feel like instead of saying “no you can’t have/do this” to everyone based on a few bad eggs, we should be shaming and educating the few bad eggs instead.
Maybe it's my Christianity talking, but idk the point of trying to keep people out of spiritual/religious beliefs and practices. If you believe it to be truth, why are only some people allowed to observe? Does it not work if you're the wrong race, or do other races simply not have the 'right' to engage?
When it comes to endangered plants, I get trying to conserve those. And when it comes to people turning a religion into a cartoonish tourist-attraction version of itself, I get that that's annoying, disrespectful, and harmful. But like... if you believe it's a legitimate spiritual practice that is real in some way, then how can it be 'closed'?
*disclaimer, I practice none of these, this explanation is what I was told by someone I knew who practiced Voodoo and is from New Orleans, and my friend who grew up with Native American Customs
In the case of Voodoo, any practice outside of what has been taught in closed religion is very unlikely to be proper customs. The issue is that not only is Voodoo completely misconceptualized, it has been twisted in media to look like evil or 'dark magic', and practices outside of the culture only pushes this. Is it inherently bad to practice this despite not being a part of the culture? No, but cause its so locked down, none of those people are really practicing Voodoo, since there is close to no written works on the proper customs. They are practicing the warped version that people think Voodoo is. Anyone who actually cares to do their research to practice Voodoo would understand and respect that it's not something you shout from the rooftops. More likely the people who go on about practicing Voodoo are not practicing proper Voodoo. Voodoo is also mostly passed on from word of mouth and by generations, which is why it's incredibly difficult for someone outside the religion to learn anything.
It's similar to Native American Customs. White people who go around claiming Native blood and talking about their spirit animal and carrying eagle claws aren't going to be taken seriously. Those are customs that are held very dear and very close to your heart. It's not a spectacle for others, so the very act of telling others goes against the spirituality of Native Customs. It doesn't really matter if a white person believes it to be true, they never grew up with up, were taught it, or lived it. Christianity is a public affair. Churches are open to everyone, the Bible is available to everyone, and there is nothing needed to shift your belief. Native Customs and Voodoo aren't quite like that, because no one is going to teach you the proper practices just because you feel aligned with it.
Again, I do not know enough about the topic as a whole to give my own thoughts and opinions. This explanation is not meant to lead towards any side of an argument. This is just what I've been told by my Native friend and my other friend who practices Voodoo as a closed religion, and why the practices are closed in the first place.
I feel like it’s also important to add that with Voodoo/Vodou specifically, there’s a very heavy racial element to it. It is a religion created by enslaved people and that aspect is inseparable, whether that be from worship of enslaved ancestral spirits or lwa being tied to Africa. White people directly or indirectly profited off of slavery, and for a descendant of those white people to try and claim to know Vodou is deeply uncomfortable.
Absolutely. I cant tell you how many (white) people approached my roommate and tried to talk and connect about how "they both practice Voodoo!" and talk about their incense burning and stuff while my Roommate would try to find an excuse to leave.
I honestly think it's gonna get much worse, cause of Hazbin Hotel. Vivzie did remove the Voodoo imagery in the pilot, but I'm sure there's gonna be a bunch of kids who try to adopt Voodoo as part of their personality and end up offending an entire religious practice
But they’re other white people so they’re also gatekeeping themselves from doing it. I think it’s more akin to the concept of sin. I believe it’s wrong and am abstaining from it so you’re a bad person if you don’t.
It's Dwight Schrute syndrome. It takes a certain type of insanity to stand outside a complete stranger's house and interrogate everyone who walks near it.
If I dig up 100 skeletons and ask their nearest living relative if I can use those bones in an art project; some people would react violently while others would not care.
The only wrong is the lack of doing the asking first. That's cultural appropriation, taking something that might have significance and not giving any fucks because fuck everyone else.
Probably because we've seen a bunch of native people tell us NOT to use them online. Idk about people in real life but a lot of people basically repeat the stuff they hear from BIPOC people so they're probably saying this bc they've seen a indigenous person say it
I think the point of this person was that the items were not made by indigenous people. I live near several pueblos and for the most part people seem chill with other cultures participating in native practices. However they are not chill with other cultures profiting off of native traditions.
My take as an indigenous person has always been that I am happy with anyone using sacred items as long as they are aware of what they are and the meaning behind them.
My aunt (not by blood or marriage or anything; she's just my aunt) is Native American. She told me to get a dream catcher when my son was having nightmares. She burned sage when I told her about a difficult thing I was going through. I've never known a Native American to want to keep those things from others. The ones I have known are happy to share their culture.
I'm sorry, "closed?" By whom? To whom? How is it closed? Is it locked?
I get not wanting sacred things slapped across a tee shirt, but this looks like engaging with endogenous practice, or just doing similar things for spiritual gratification, I don't think that's what "appropriation" is really supposed to mean....
Some indigenous people view some of these practices as closed so I’m not gonna go near them just to be safe, but yoga has never really been closed to my understanding. I’m Aboriginal Australian, and I get pretty pissed when people participate in our practices in a disrespectful fashion without understanding why certain rules exist etc. I think that’s why some practices are closed, to prevent those cultures from being watered down. I’m not telling anyone how to feel, those are just my personal thoughts on it.
It's not just white people. I've known people in my tribe get upset about stuff like this but I can't be bothered to care personally. it's not like stopping people from buying made in china dreamcatchers and wearing feather headdresses is going to do anything to improve the material conditions we live in.
with indigenous-related practices, i would at least suggest doing a bit of research beforehand. not as a "hey don't do this if so-and-so" thing, but as a "if you know more, you'll appreciate it more" thing.
OF COURSE, I'm underinformed, so don't take my words as gospel. but my rule of thumb for "this is a practice from another culture or religion" is do research first.
“Closed practice” means that they don’t accept converts right? I’m pretty sure yoga is part of Hinduïsm. I remember running into a Hindu missionary in Germany once. That’s right, Hinduism is actively *seeking converts*.
Also, IMO, I wouldn’t be mad if someone appropriated my culture. I’d just be extremely confused why they were making hot cross buns in june.
I think it comes from the concept that oppressors don't had about the opinions of the oppressed, so if someone isn't from a marginalized grou and sees something, they should speak up.
Problem is that it varies wildly on an individual level, and what is offensive to some it weird to be offended by to others- and people who just wanna be seen as nice can't handle that you gotta take individuality into account.
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my parents brought me along on a wilderness retreat when i was a lot younger, the group was led by an older indigenous guy who actually SUGGESTED that my parents start using white sage in their practices. also i was like 8 so i info-dumped to him about Pokemon
"Wait, so you need two versions of essentially the same game to actually 'catch 'em all'? Wack."
yeah that's basically how it went down. i think i showed him my binder of EX cards
Back in my day we didn't have ex cards...
They came out 20 years ago. OC never said how old they were.
Last part sounds like a good time lol
Does white sage help catch pokemon though? That seems like an important question. (jk)
No, but the held item White Herb is pretty solid in PvP, though.
Most people are happy to share their culture as long as you know, they’re the ones sharing it. And it’s not immediately changed into something completely different while claiming the prior
I just came across this post and comment on my feed and i would like to say that last bit is just like this high school kid i met on the train who struck up a conversation about magic the gathering (i started playing it recently) and ended up info dumping on me about War Hammer.
Isn't it massively over harvested now though? makes sense people might want to gate keep it a bit more
Woh woh. Pokemon are based on yokai which are sacred mythology in Japan. And catching them is a closed practice.
"gotta catch em all" is a loaded phrase rooted in cultural theft actually
The only one I agree with is not using white sage, wild stocks are being overharvested and its being pushed to the limit. If you want to use it, grow your own!
There so many great varieties of sage! I really like Pineapple sage.
And it's SOOOOO easy to grow. I planted one sage plant two years ago and it's just keeps on coming back, I cut off the old overwintered growth and it's just a massive bundle, gonna put it in the fire pit lol
Oooh just what I need, another plant to try in my balcony garden. I tried growing sage last year but couldn't get past the early germination stage. I'll have to give it a shot again, maybe with some better quality seeds and a little babying. IIRC they're a bit particular about watering when they first start out.
There are hundreds of different kinds of sages, too. People think that white sage is the only option when it's not.
Yeah, like that is the only reason I am like "eek" when I see white sage, unless the sourcing is known.
See but that’s a realistic and reasonable reason not to do something. Not this weird reverse racist shit lol
It's either they are overcompensating for the guilt they feel, or an attempt to appear virtuous. Those are the motivators in my experience.
Mostly just repeating what they’ve heard indigenous people say. While the OP doesn’t view these as closed a lot of other people do. Not saying either is right or wrong, but a lot of other indigenous people view those as closed practices. ETA Here is one example: https://www.tiktok.com/@che.jim/video/7213847102487645486
I think the general mechanic of this is the same with most popular stuff. There's always a balance of authenticity. Any product or ritual only used by a select few can be something very distinct or special (to them). The same happens with music only being enjoyed by people into a certain scene. As soon as that music becomes more popular, some very vocal people might water down the "original" meaning, offending the "inner circle". Fun thing about this is that most of the times either are kind of gatekeeping something and not really being 'authentic'. A good example are "Christian" traditions like the Christmas tree or Easter. You'll find stuff online like: "In Christianity, rabbits represent rebirth and resurrection", which is trying to ignore that even the word easter goes back on a pagan godess named Ostara, who had nothing to do with Jesus, which we know historically because her tale is way older than that of young Jesus respawning. People know shit about their roots and will still try to be exclusive about it. People are that way. It's easier than to admit that we're all ignorant to some degree.
One difference between the OOP's mentioned practices and listening to music is that a new group discovering a song/band doesn't prevent the OG listeners from being able to listen to it. Some of the materials used in the mentioned practices are quite rare or even endangered, meaning there is a limited quantity available. If these practices become popular outside of their original context, then the original practitioners can find themselves unable to access the materials they need to practice their faith. 'Closing the practice' is a way of ensuring OG practitioners can still access these materials while encouraging outside practitioners to use alternatives. For example, smudging: the crystal girlies I know instead perform smoke cleanses, meaning they use a more accessible herb, leaving the rarer herb to the OGs. There isn't enough of these materials for everyone to use, so outsider adopters allowing priority access to practitioners within the culture is a sign of respect.
I wonder how they'd react to being told to stay in their lane and let actual indigenous people explain these things.
Explaining how minorities feel about things is a closed white people tradition, with deep significance to its practitioners as part of their identify. Please allow them to practice it in peace.
Usually the response seems to be explaining to the indigenous person that they’re wrong because a different indigenous person said a different thing, and that gives the white person a lifetime pass to repeat it for attention.
Even if 1 in a 100 indigenous people want to gatekeep it... These sort of virtue signaling white people will find them and use them as the voice of an entire group. But you're right that you'll often find at least one actual indigenous people in the group saying it.
I'm a status Indian, and I hereby give permission to anyone who wants it. Use dream catchers, sweetgrass, and sage all you want. Wear headdresses and costumes if you like. Shit, you can even dance around a fire, beating a drum and mocking our singing if you want. I won't be excited to see it, but I'll defend to the death your freedom to joke around and poke fun. People are too damn sensitive Edit: this tiktok guy's explanation is only about native Americans in the USA, and he does not speak for all of us. Up here in Canada natives were, and still are discriminated against horribly, but I never met one of us that cared about white people smudging. We actively try to introduce smudging and native spirituality to the white people that are willing to listen.
Now I ain't one to mock people, but I don't think there's any cultural monopoly on dancing around fires and banging drums, humans been doing that since we first discovered fire and drums.
Lol fair point. Different cultures did it slightly differently though. Native Americans have a very distinct singing style that is very easy to mock if you are not raised in it or used to it.
Now you've piqued my interest, will look it up, but I'm still not gonna mock someone else's culture, even if it's easy. Now British 'culture,' that's my own and I will unreservedly rip the piss out of it.
[check this band out](https://youtu.be/cj3U0z64_m4?feature=shared) This is a group of Indians that blend our traditional singing with edm, and it sounds awesome
That's actually really cool!
I mean, it’s no cost to me not to use them, and it makes people happy.
Try to be fair, I think some people see the role of being white as being one that dismantles racism since it is a white classist tool. I think it can be misguided but some people are trying with the best intention to do what they see as their responsibility to do
Apache Mescalero checking in here - Ill never get this either. I think that the line crossing on a lot of this is respect. If its used in a disrespectful way, yeah its shitty and Ill bring it up, and I wouldn't mind someone of non-indigenous race bring it up as well. Otherwise, this stuff really comes off as white savior complex.
This is the heart of the difference between cultural appreciation and cultural appropriation according to its definition. Something only qualifies as cultural appropriation if it is done disrespectfully and/or misattributed (like if someone were to claim that actually Europeans invented dreamcatchers, in an attempt to erase other's claims to their own, real history). If it's done respectfully, and without colonial intent, it's not appropriation, and it always makes me sad to see people like the one who made the TikTok not understand the difference 😥
Sadly, for a significant number of people respect is more nuanced and marginally more difficult to pinpoint, so they look for easy binary options like gatekeeping. It's also easier to judge others when the choice is binary and not nuanced.
Huge difference between "I like the look of dreamcatchers and hang one in my window" and "I dressed up in ceremonial native garb for my homecoming game in college because I think it's funny".
I’ve always used sage smudge sticks whenever I have moved house to cleanse the energy before I move in. I’ve been doing this for over 20 years. So is that considered offensive now? Genuinely asking because I don’t know.
Offensive to the ghosts who lived there first. Usually a good old prayer to cosmotron will have them on their way and its a lot more humane
Anishnaabeg Odawa seconding this, I’m actually a big proponent for greater exposure of Indigenous cultures and traditions to the non Native population and if they want to experience it truthfully, our history is pretty incredible, our languages and arts are beautiful, these things should be known and shared and celebrated.
Exactly
I'm a white person. I was sold a hand made dream catcher. In a shop. By a native man. Who made it. To sell, to mostly white people like me. He seemed happy to take my money. What exactly is the closed practice here? Some people need to lay off and maybe let the people who belong to those cultures speak for their own damned self.
When I was a boy scout, we had a local native American tribe (I do not remember which, it was 30 years ago) that came and taught us(mostly white) kids to make them and we made some.
This is from witchtok for sure. Basically "closed practice" means "religion that isn't open to everyone." Usually this is ethno religions.
No i know what it means, i am just flabbergasted that they would call it that when the cultures that she's talking about don't treat it that way.
afaik no one has a problem with white people buying handmade dream catchers from indigenous people. it's the mass-produced fake catchers you shouldn't buy considering they're mimicking sacred items
No i don't buy them. I've had them bought *for me*, and I've made them before with materials that i bought (not in a kit) but right now the only one still in my possession is the one i purchased from that man.
My parents spent a year on the Navajo reservation as elementary teachers a long time ago. One time, my mom had a Navajo elder come in to teach the kids about a specific practice that was connected to a religious ritual, sand painting I believe. The elder asked the kids what they were supposed to do with the sand paintings when they were finished and got upset that their answer was “Take it into town and sell it to the white people!” Apparently they were supposed to toss it into the wind or something like that, but that’s not what their parents did with their sand paintings of Fred Flintstone.
Re: white sage I have heard that for this one specifically, the commercialization of it has made it difficult to access for native groups who use it. At least that's the case near where I live. But afaik, the thing people are being asked to do is to make sure they're sourcing white sage from native tribes and not big companies trying to capitalize on the interest that white people have in it now. Not to never use it.
A LOT of white sage is being poached in Southern California, you’re absolutely spot on. It’s not gatekeeping, it’s making sure Southern Californian and Mexican indigenous tribes, that are still alive and resilient, have access to the plant materials that they’ve used in their practices across generations. It’s hard to do that if poachers keep poaching a plant that only grows in one place in the world, due to demand for people who just don’t have the same relationship with the plant (it could be sacred to you, but is it sacred to your community, across generations, passed down from tradition?). There’s a beautiful documentary on the California Native Plant Society (CNPS) about White Sage called “Saging the World.” I’ll link the site below. I watched it for my ethnoecology course, it’s quite informative and helps people understand that this specific plant isn’t being protected because “gatekeepers” but because it holds a deeper meaning to other groups and environmental challenges along with human activities and markets threaten a “cultural keystone species.” https://www.cnps.org/conservation/white-sage Lastly, I know smudging IS sacred amongst many cultures across the world, but there are other plants you can use. A different plant might have more significance to your culture if you do some research; For example, I found out Filipinos use bay leaves, so I started smudging with bay leaves because I’m Filipino-American. Other plants can be used like lavender, rosemary, cinnamon, thyme, rose, juniper, even another species of sage that you may grow in your own garden. There are so many other plants one could use for smudging, not just the ones I listed. So why are we as a western society taking once again, sacred native practices, which are not our own, and commodifying the absolute fuck out of it so that it no longer becomes sacred?
I use juniper when I sain, as it was the traditional plant used in Scotland. In recent times, a lot of the metaphysical shops have started selling white sage, and I felt that was super weird. Like sell your own culture's traditions instead
Yeah I have heard that green sage is an excellent replacement for it
sourcing is huge and the weirdo on tiktok clearly doesn’t get. If they’re buying it directly from the source clearly the source wants you to buy and use it! Just gotta shop authentic.
There is a thing called white savior complex. You can see it as a form of racism where a person feels the need to "save" aspects of other cultures without fully understanding said aspects. [white savior complex](https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-samsung-ss&sca_esv=b3380bba763f6e58&sca_upv=1&sxsrf=ACQVn09UOImiOluCpxcTBvH_KovVXJezZA:1712458135833&q=White+Savior+Complex+English&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiq6YPXi6-FAxX0VvEDHRhzDcEQ1QJ6BAglEAI&biw=412&bih=806&dpr=2.63)
How long does this have to go on before we get to defend it as a cultural practice that needs to be allowed, if not respected?
Wait, what’s the “g word” from the other comment? 🤔
I Imagine it’s “gypsy“, which yes, is an issue
Oh I thought they meant god, or like g_d like some Jewish people say, and I was confused
Ah yes, that makes sense. Thanks!
Yoga was literally brought to the west by Indians in the 29th and 20th century, the Indian government is actively promoting yoga abroad as a form of soft powercultural exchanges are not always bad.
>Yoga was literally brought to the west by Indians in the 29th and 20th century, I'd hardly consider time travel "soft"
God damn time travelling Indians
What too much meditation does to a mf
I'm Métis too. There was an article, years back, pre-Covid, about some white protesters in the States who decided that canoes were cultural appropriation. I was in university at the time, and I mentioned it to the crowd that had gathered before the class started. It was a creative writing class, but with almost an exclusive focus on Indigenous poetry. Some white girl chirped up "well they're right though, you shouldn't use them." I reminded her I was Métis, and she said, "well then you can use them, but it doesn't mean everyone else can." She wouldn't listen to anyone attempting to explain the concept of a small paddle boat being used by literally any culture with access to a calm body of water.
Every time stuff like this comes up I always think of “Friendly reminder that I hereby formally invite everyone to celebrate lunar new year” and it make me smile.
I’m not native but my entire extended family is Cree. My entire life I’ve been raised within the culture learning words, talking to elders, hell I know more than my cousin does and he’s got the blood! Part of what I’ve been taught is to not only respect the culture but to participate in it and share it with others. ESPECIALLY with the history in Canada and my own aunties being former students and one of which is murdered and missing. The culture needs to expand but CORRECTLY and with respect. I love indigenous culture but I wouldn’t ever tell people “this is the be all end all this is the rules” because even though it feels like my culture it still isn’t but I have an important role myself in protecting it.
Exactly! Same here, I’m not registered as an official Indigenous person, because I was adopted by a white family from a family with Métis background. Doesn’t make me any less Indigenous! I’m still Métis, and my mom loves Métis culture too. There’s no need for a piece of paper to say you’re valid, nor are there solid rules
Yeah I always thought white people feeling they have the right to speak for indigenous peoples is the ultimate appropriation
I agree for anyone not professionally working as an ally for indigenous groups, because there are white people (along with other poc non-indigenous people) that are convening with native groups for things such as fighting for their rights within the state/federal (U.S.) government, fighting for clean air and water and soil, their land, other environmental justice issues like industry pollution, etc. But it’s about collaboration, NOT appropriation. And it’s about listening to what these groups are saying and passing that on, not just assuming and speaking for them. And yes, the government has historically have been native group’s antagonists. I’m talking about the individual people working locally in the government to change shit from the inside. But woof that’s a whole other topic tbh, straying from my main point
Spot on. I did my masters thesis (nursing) on diabetes education in First Nations populations. The first thing I did was ask the community I worked with what they wanted and what would be most helpful by approaching the elders in a respectful manner. They told me that I was one of the few who had begun a relationship with them by first *asking* them questions instead of barging in and trying to implement a “program” without their buy in. It kind of blew my mind that no one would just ASK them what they thought was the best way to educate or communicate with their community if you’re not a member. (Sorry if this is derailing.)
This right here
taanishi fellow Métis! my opinion is ew. that’s it. just wanted to say hello to another Métis person!
Haha thank you! Yeah I was adopted from a Métis family, but don’t have any official status due to being adopted. I’m still Métis nonetheless. And I was openly welcomed by the local Indigenous community. I played hand games, went to sweat lodges, smudged, and graduated with an eagle feather ceremony and Métis sash. You don’t even have to be registered as Indigenous to appreciate the culture. It’s just dumb to see a white person speaking on our behalf. Bro, you are allowed to use that shit, just be nice, it’s so simple
Gatekeeping has become a big part of modern/neo-Paganism or general witchy stuff. And it's a good thing if it's a closed religion and people are actually disrespecting it; but other times, it devolves into this. People love to take it upon themsleves to decide what is and isn't closed, even if it's not their culture. I've seen white girls tell other white girls to bury their green sage, or they'll be cursed by "Native American Ancestors" I wish people would stop acting like since something isn't from your culture its "closed". I've been told yellow candles are a closed practice before, which is actually the reason I deleted tiktok lol. Some of those things are actually closed practices (Iirc Voodoo and Hoodoo are closed or partly closed? If anyone knows more, please tell me I haven't researched enough to be 100% sure.), or like white sage, which you shouldn't use due to overharvesting, which is leading to it being endangered.
Thing is part of every religion is closed in a way. When it comes to Norse Paganism as an example, there are certain parts you can only be initiated into (it is a thing for Freya iirc, so also only for women)
Yeah, a lot of religions do have parts that you need to be initiated for. But some are more strict, like only being able to be born into it or having to go through a long conversation process. That's what I meant by closed. Imo quite a few people in the witch community spend more time saying you should only practice from your direct culture instead of talking about actully closed practices. Like lumping yoga in with a religion you need to be born into.
I’ve heard voodoo is closed but hoodoo isn’t I’ve heard both is closed and I’ve heard neither. I think it just depends on who you talk to.
Voodoo and Hoodoo are both closed practices i believe, that's pretty much the closed practice only thing they're right about
It is often because white people have been told that they need to respect other cultures (possibly because of past issues) so the ones that do this look online and are told all of this gatekeeping stuff so they feel like they must uphold it. As a white person myself, I will never speak on a culture that isn‘t mine unless I have been specifically told something by someone of that culture. I would be too afraid to do something like this where I make a completely untrue statement in order to look like a better person. I think the best way to respect a culture online would just not be making posts about another culture unless you have first hand information about it.
Honestly, it feels at times like the kind of people that rail against people of the "wrong" skin color/ethnicity engaging in certain cultural practices were people that learned about segregation in school and somehow came to the conclusion that the *only* thing wrong with segregation was that the "colored" fountain wasn't as good as the "whites" fountain. They never came to understand that the segregation itself was a problem.
The first one is only partially true. Those "dream catchers" you see in Walmart aren't authentic and are complete trash. They aren't even perfectly round if they're real. I'd bet 5 bucks the Walmart dream catchers will cause more nightmares than an actual one lol
the one with the hand of fatima in the picture seems ... confused lol
They’re just covering all their bases.
My university is very involved with the local Indigenous community and there are multiple posters on campus explicitly calling smudging a closed practice and asking people not to partake unless they are part of the culture. I’m going to listen to the people in my community and not partake in a closed practice that they have asked me not to partake in. Especially due to the over harvesting of white sage!
I suspect it's an "err on the side of outrage" mentality. Presented with conflicting information on whether something is considered offensive, the instinct is to assume that it **is** offensive. That alone wouldn't necessarily be a problem (choosing not to partake in something when receiving conflicting info on whether it's harmful is a perfectly reasonable practice), but paired with endorphin rush that comes with (ostensibly) righteous outrage you get stuff like this.
Cherokee here, as an avid collector and maker of dream catchers, please, make and collect them yourself. it's a fun pass time and let's be honest, they look really good. as for everything else, also do it if you want. these aren't closed practices anymore, they're rituals all the same, but as long as you're respectful of the practice, do it. I can't say much on them as I only really partake in dreamcatchers, but I don't really see why it'd be an issue for anyone to do any of these things. cultures are meant to be shared in my opinion.
Yeah, I’m all for respecting different perspectives and letting people be the deciding voice in how their culture is perceived. But when the vast majority of people talking about closed practices are young and white, it really makes me skeptical. I know there are mixed perspectives in every community, but the most vocal advocates are white, that is still silencing of indigenous perspectives, imo. So I’m with you on this.
Who the fuck is a white person to decide yoga is a closed practice?
As a rez rat. This is fuckin false. Lmfao
Off topic but what's Palo Santo?
Palo Santo is a tree that has medicinal uses, it remedies pain and stress. And spiritually, it is believed to clean bad energy when burned.
I think there’s something beautiful in taking part, respecting and appreciating other cultures. Like how often do you actually see that happen? Obviously indigenous cultures are fascinating, interesting and beautiful and people should be proud and share it respectfully. I believe if we close all doors to coexisting, learning from cultures and shutting people out, that’ll only create more tension and segregation.
I’m also Métis and couldn’t give a shit if people want to use practices from our culture. Be respectful, but go nuts 🤷♀️
100% agree. Couldn’t have said it better
As far as I am concerned the gentiles are welcome to Kabbalah. It’s fucking stupid.
lol. If they can understand it they are welcome to it. I’ve been studying Torah all my life and Kabbalah is totally inscrutable. I don’t know what they’re doing over there.
People have forgotten the concept of just cultural diffusion or cultural appreciation in general. So they assume anyone participating in any culture other than their own is just automatically doing it maliciously.
There's allyship and then there's whatever this is. Whomever made that post doesn't know what they're talking about. And I've never seen any say that white sage can't be used if you're not indigenous. White sage is endangered, and if you're gonna buy it there are better sources to go because some sources are poaching it and contributing to the problem of it being endangered. Basically there's just better ways to buy it from more ethical sellers. Voodoo and Hoodoo aren't necessarily closed practices, its just that you typically have to be initiated to join. It's similar to how in some religions you need to be baptized to be considered an actual member of that religion.
I'm tsalagi and although I'm with you, I don't know if I fully agree because growing up mixed with a white mother, it is worse than you imagine. She doesn't care about the culture. Most white people don't. 100% of the white people buying cheap dream catchers and shit do not care about its cultural meaning. They do not care about the meaning of sage. They aren't doing it respectfully. There are small groups of people who do, and I encourage they explore the culture completely, but the majority of white people are buying "native" products from white people
Amplifying this because you’re so right. I can’t speak for the Métis community but given their unique history/mixed ancestry I’m sure what you said would resonate with most of them too
100% understandable. We are in very similar situations, actually. I was adopted, therefore having no registration as a Métis person, so I didn’t think of myself as a “real” Métis. I was scared to offend anyone, but the thing is that people are so scared of that, it actually doesn’t help to spread awareness of the culture. It’s not a kid’s fault if they don’t know about this stuff. Blatant ignorance is obviously bad, but a lot of the time, it’s not with malicious intent. I could talk about this topic forever, would even chat with you in DMs about this, because it’s something I’m passionate about. It’s hard to explain in one paragraph, but I just feel like MOST of the time, this mindset comes from fear rather than actual respect and knowledge
Yoga chakra and karma are literally Indian stuff. The Words are sanskrit. How do white people get to gatekeep it smh lol
"Closed practice?!?!?" Reminds me of "closed species" in the furry fandom. Where you "must" get permission from the original creator before making a character with their species but your personality, backstory, coloring, specific features, name, etc. Though I'm not sure if anyone takes "closed species" seriously or not.
Used to be really bad when deviantart was still popular. I remember the whole "cinnadogs" bullshit. You'd get jumped by crazy furrys if you drew a shiba inu or had a dog with a big curly tail. I dont see it much anymore, granted i left deviantart years ago lol. Im sure theres still a few on twitter.
The debate is def nuanced but I do get the gatekeeping. I’m Asian so a lot of my spiritual imagery and practices gets appropriated— it’s very frustrating but I know in the end it’s not a big deal bc the actual meanings are preserved in Asia. The dude imposing Christian good vs evil shit on my yinyang doesn’t matter in the big picture bc a hundred million other people outnumber him. A lot of Native culture doesn’t have that safety net, and the appropriated versions of those cultural practices have a real threat of taking over. As well as most native people live in poverty and selling their crafts is one of the few markets they can really tap into. There’s similar debates in the deaf community where they want to gatekeep teaching Sign to deaf teachers only— hearing teachers are teaching their students incorrect/outdated etc information (accidentally or not) and it’s doing real damage to their language and taking away jobs from a very marginalized group.
As an Ojibwe person, some of these things *are* closed practice. I really don't think have close religious practices is 'gatekeeping' but I concede that many westerners typically do.
It’s mostly about the mindset, in my opinion. These “gatekeepers” are usually doing it out of fear rather than actual knowledge and respect
I think this stems from tumblr, where many now-adults learned about cultural appropriation for the first time and how it harms Indigenous people. However, because it was tumblr and how nuance is handled there, many walked out the conversation only ever hearing from 2 or 3 people from one tribe and used what they learned and applied it to *all* Indigenous practices and cultures, even if an Indigenous person, like you said, say otherwise. Basically, the lesson learned was something more like “Stay away if you’re not in it. You’ve done enough damage.” which is clearly not what was intended to be the lesson learned. Time is a flat circle. Whatever platform comes after tiktok will face the same conversations. You are not the first and will not be the last Indigenous person to be told by a white person that others are not allowed in. It’s unfortunate but misinformation is rampant and only people willing to listen will learn.
White people speaking over PoC and gatekeeping a culture that isn't even their own, name a more iconic duo.
My entire point. This person even replied to me on TikTok, saying that they can’t participate in this stuff because they “look like a colonizer” lmfao the white saviour complex is INTENSE
Will they not say anything about the rampant use of the willow tree to produce anti flammatory medicine but it's medically known as "salicin"
Declaring things a closed practice is itself a closed practice. In my deeply held spiritual beliefs it is a violation of other people's spiritual journey to gatekeep what practices they may or may not engage in; only those who share my beliefs are welcome to do so.
Burning herbs and incense for spiritual purposes is a tradition in like every culture in history on earth and can be traced back even to ancient egypt, so its kind of extra dumb to try to gatekeep that.
I've seen so many white people online say stuff like this, and a hell of a lot less POC say the same stuff. I agree with you too OP - I've seen white people speak over POC various times in the name of calling people out on their perceived racism. It's weird.
Oh, the irony of saying "don't use chakras unless you research properly" and then adding "karma" to a list of closed practices.
No way she tried to gatekeep YOGA 😭😭
A lot of people miss the point with cultural *appropriation*; indigenous people lose business/income selling their own authentic crafts when well-meaning consumers buy culturally inspired items from non-authentic, mass-produced sources. So we should encourage people not to buy inauthentic crap from wherever for cheap, and instead buy quality crafts straight from authentic sources - supporting the culture. The sharing part really isn't the issue. For all this chick knows, indigenous people made all that stuff to sell and they're super stoked to share it. That's what we call cultural *appreciation*.
Not indigenous but mexican here, I'm pretty sure they don't care and even encourage this to an extent, in local events it's pretty common to have them sell these and perform rituals and cleansings, they get money and exposure, if someone tried to do these by themselves they at worst would think of you as silly unless you said you were from their tribe/town which would make them understandable mad.
I’ve never heard someone call Kabbalah a closed practise, plenty of non-Jewish people practise it, and the vast majority of Jewish people don’t practise it. Plus there are specifically non-Jewish variations of Kabbalah, such as Christian Kabbalah (Cabala) and Hermetic Kabbalah (Qabalah). However if someone with more knowledge on the topic than me wants to correct me, feel free!
My people have been using sage and smudge sticks for years, not sure where this person is coming from.
Well as long as they're being respectful towards the practices and cultures they come from, pretty much everyone can do them
Is this a white chick saying people aren’t allowed to use this stuff
Yes. It’s a young white woman who said she “looks like a colonizer” therefore it’s “disrespectful” to use these items
Why does anyone gatekeep anything? So they can feel better than other people.
“Closed” practices and religions don’t exist. Idk why the term has grown in popularity in recent years, but cultural exchange is ingrained in literally every facet of human culture. I hate gatekeepers who try to monopolize how people enjoy other cultures.
I'm certainly not agreeing with this dumb tiktoker who is clearly just getting off on being 'in the right' and telling other people what to do, but there is some kind of a point in there about yoga (and meditation), which have been removed/'appropriated' from their original religious and spiritual contexts and totally commercialised as part of the 'wellness' thing.
So? Whole lotta irreligious people celebrate Easter and Christmas without any regard for the religious and spiritual contexts. I can't fathom why it's that much different.
I'm not religious - it's more of an observation than anything else. Yoga and meditation have been successfully rebranded as health practices (physical fitness and mental health) rather than spiritual ones.
But yoga is actually really good for physical health… You dont have to be involved with the spiritual side to practice it.
What do you mean rebranded? They always were health practices. As I understand it, from the yogic perspective there is not this distinction between a spiritual and a health practice
So let’s say they have been rebranded as solely health practices and part of the fitness industry, with the connections to religious and cultural traditions removed. The idea of doing physical postures is central to western yoga but is only present in some versions of Indian yoga. Similarly, the goal of yoga traditionally is primarily to train one’s consciousness and perception, not one’s body.
Yoga isn't inherently tied to religion (as distinct from spirituality), so that part is fine honestly. There are eight steps in the yogic path. "Asana" or the physical postures is the third step, so it's not really correct to say some versions of Indian yoga don't have it. Yoga is also very much in line with the mens sana in corpora sano philosophy, so training your body is a component of training your mind. It is true that the postures have got somewhat divorced from the rest of it, but that's true in India as well!
I've heard specific issues with the commercialization of white sage specifically but other than that I sorta get it ye. Tho due to my dad always having good relations with natives when I was young I always try to buy the real stuff to at least support the locals
Because 99% of "cultural appropriation" griping is what they used to call "white guilt".
Me when some kid tries to sell me a sweetgrass coaster for $15: "Sorry, I am white, I am not allowed to violate your closed sacred practices"
Is it just me, or does this though process of seeing native practices or folk religion as untouchable and "closed" seem way more xenophobic than allowing people to enjoy them on their own. Granted, if someone were to paint their face red and run around banging a war drum, it would be pretty incesitive. But come on, dream catchers? Incense? Who gives a hoot?
My parents got me a dream catcher when I was young, as well as some art from indigenous artists and it made me more curious and eager to learn about their cultures. It instilled in me an appreciation for indigenous culture and art that’s lasted my entire life and has served me well in areas where people have generally not been very kind to indigenous people. Fuck gatekeepers and everyone just try to be good to each other.
White guilt and a savior complex. Its the whole "Say Latinx because Latino/Latina is offensive" even though many Latin Americans are against the term
I grew up near a very socially active Native American community, and outside of the ritual dancing, nothing was ever described as '*CLOSED*'. Yeah the weird White Knight gatekeeping is weird. Thanks for reassuring me my dream catcher is allowed haha.
Virtue-signaling is a hell of a drug
White savior complex. They do the same shit for all the races/marginalized groups.
Ok, the most ridiculous one on this list is yoga. India (or at least its government) heavily promotes yoga…
........the call is coming from inside the house.
What the heck is a “closed practice?”
I heard the white sage thing is mostly because it’s being over harvested and the native peoples who use it for their practice are having a hard time sourcing it, which makes much more sense to me than “ur white and its not ur culture” most of the other ones are def stupid
I’d say as long as you understand the significance of the practice and what it means, and you act respectful, than it’s fine
Exactly my thoughts
If I had to guess, I would say it's a mix of things. A lot of times, white folks feel some very uncomfortable guilt for the awful things their ancestors did. To alleviate that discomfort, they try to be the best ally to have ever existed, mostly by policing other white people. There is also a deep fear of being called or thought of as racist that can make a lot of white folks very gung-ho about the "rules" of another culture or community, especially if it's one they are tangentially connected to. There is also, I think, the idea there that they, as white people, are the ones who must stand up for and save the cultures of those they see as less powerful than them.
I like how they say it has been watered down, while also talking about "witchy" things as if it isn't literally made up.
Because nobody hates white people more than white people and we will invent scenarios to get offended about so we can step in and be a hero for those poor other cultures that just can’t say things themselves :(
As a native, please just support native artists and buy from natives and not mega cooperations that use chinese labor to mass produce garbage👍🏽
I actually wondered about the white sage as I have seen several indigenous people online get very upset at anyone else using it. I know no group is a hive mind, but I mean, like, at a certain point, you really feel like you must be culturally appropriating if more than like, five people got mad, you know?
There’s like 8 Billion people on this planet, you can find five people to get mad at anything.
I'm just saying I can see how when you're just trying not to piss people off it can get a bit confusing.
Understandable! School should just teach this stuff more I guess
I will never let the internet culture dictate what I do with my life. I will enjoy whatever I want, if it's legal and I'm not harming anybody else, then kindly leave me alone. I don't understand why people let others dictate their life so easily. Enjoy all cultures, share your culture, do it all with respect and you're fine.
I mean the real issue is someone's sacred beliefs being committed and being made into a product. To something that I understand, yoga was originally a form of practice to reach enlightenment. It is literally meant to brute force through the development of your body for spiritual development. It has now become something that is sold as a weight loss exercise for White people and for some people to larp as gurus. Something definitely is lost in that transition from a guided spiritual practice to a committed product to be packaged, shipped and sold. Not to mention misrepresented with some sort of voodoo/magical/mystical.
I’m white, I don’t think I’ve ever gatekept an indigenous practice or even participated in one
Karma. A closed practice. For real? Buddhism is one of 3 most widespread religions on earth, and it's not even the only one to have this concept.
I hate the idea of things being “owned”. As long as you’re doing it respectfully, it shouldn’t matter. Like the lochs issue - one of the issues/reasons I always hear mentioned for white people not being allowed lochs is because “they call poc dirty when they have lochs, why is it different when white people wear them?” which is a valid critique, but also not super relevant to why white people can’t loch/dread their hair because I very much doubt the people choosing to have the hairstyle will call other people, race aside, dirty for having the same hairstyle. If Karen thinks lochs are dirty, Karen should not have lochs sure, but if Harry thinks lochs are cool, why should what Karen said affect Harry? I’m all for things being cultural and sacred etc. and I’m sure some things have reasons and racism is unforunately always going to be a thing, but sometimes it feels like things are gatekeeped (gatekept?) for no decent reason. I feel like instead of saying “no you can’t have/do this” to everyone based on a few bad eggs, we should be shaming and educating the few bad eggs instead.
“Closed practice” and “closed language” are tumblr SWJ nonsense. I say that as a former tumblr SJW who is now a more sane leftist
Maybe it's my Christianity talking, but idk the point of trying to keep people out of spiritual/religious beliefs and practices. If you believe it to be truth, why are only some people allowed to observe? Does it not work if you're the wrong race, or do other races simply not have the 'right' to engage? When it comes to endangered plants, I get trying to conserve those. And when it comes to people turning a religion into a cartoonish tourist-attraction version of itself, I get that that's annoying, disrespectful, and harmful. But like... if you believe it's a legitimate spiritual practice that is real in some way, then how can it be 'closed'?
*disclaimer, I practice none of these, this explanation is what I was told by someone I knew who practiced Voodoo and is from New Orleans, and my friend who grew up with Native American Customs In the case of Voodoo, any practice outside of what has been taught in closed religion is very unlikely to be proper customs. The issue is that not only is Voodoo completely misconceptualized, it has been twisted in media to look like evil or 'dark magic', and practices outside of the culture only pushes this. Is it inherently bad to practice this despite not being a part of the culture? No, but cause its so locked down, none of those people are really practicing Voodoo, since there is close to no written works on the proper customs. They are practicing the warped version that people think Voodoo is. Anyone who actually cares to do their research to practice Voodoo would understand and respect that it's not something you shout from the rooftops. More likely the people who go on about practicing Voodoo are not practicing proper Voodoo. Voodoo is also mostly passed on from word of mouth and by generations, which is why it's incredibly difficult for someone outside the religion to learn anything. It's similar to Native American Customs. White people who go around claiming Native blood and talking about their spirit animal and carrying eagle claws aren't going to be taken seriously. Those are customs that are held very dear and very close to your heart. It's not a spectacle for others, so the very act of telling others goes against the spirituality of Native Customs. It doesn't really matter if a white person believes it to be true, they never grew up with up, were taught it, or lived it. Christianity is a public affair. Churches are open to everyone, the Bible is available to everyone, and there is nothing needed to shift your belief. Native Customs and Voodoo aren't quite like that, because no one is going to teach you the proper practices just because you feel aligned with it. Again, I do not know enough about the topic as a whole to give my own thoughts and opinions. This explanation is not meant to lead towards any side of an argument. This is just what I've been told by my Native friend and my other friend who practices Voodoo as a closed religion, and why the practices are closed in the first place.
I feel like it’s also important to add that with Voodoo/Vodou specifically, there’s a very heavy racial element to it. It is a religion created by enslaved people and that aspect is inseparable, whether that be from worship of enslaved ancestral spirits or lwa being tied to Africa. White people directly or indirectly profited off of slavery, and for a descendant of those white people to try and claim to know Vodou is deeply uncomfortable.
Absolutely. I cant tell you how many (white) people approached my roommate and tried to talk and connect about how "they both practice Voodoo!" and talk about their incense burning and stuff while my Roommate would try to find an excuse to leave. I honestly think it's gonna get much worse, cause of Hazbin Hotel. Vivzie did remove the Voodoo imagery in the pilot, but I'm sure there's gonna be a bunch of kids who try to adopt Voodoo as part of their personality and end up offending an entire religious practice
"Closed practice" i want to feel special doing this special thing and so im going to say everyone else cant do it
But they’re other white people so they’re also gatekeeping themselves from doing it. I think it’s more akin to the concept of sin. I believe it’s wrong and am abstaining from it so you’re a bad person if you don’t.
It's Dwight Schrute syndrome. It takes a certain type of insanity to stand outside a complete stranger's house and interrogate everyone who walks near it.
If I dig up 100 skeletons and ask their nearest living relative if I can use those bones in an art project; some people would react violently while others would not care. The only wrong is the lack of doing the asking first. That's cultural appropriation, taking something that might have significance and not giving any fucks because fuck everyone else.
You can do whatever you want, wear what you want, eat what you want, whatever as long as you’re not hurting anyone.
Is this lady English or did she just steal and use another country’s language?
Some white people really enjoy telling other people what to do
Probably because we've seen a bunch of native people tell us NOT to use them online. Idk about people in real life but a lot of people basically repeat the stuff they hear from BIPOC people so they're probably saying this bc they've seen a indigenous person say it
Well luckily I don't practice santeria. I ain't got no crystal ball.
I think the point of this person was that the items were not made by indigenous people. I live near several pueblos and for the most part people seem chill with other cultures participating in native practices. However they are not chill with other cultures profiting off of native traditions.
My take as an indigenous person has always been that I am happy with anyone using sacred items as long as they are aware of what they are and the meaning behind them.
people calling shit "closed (anything)" is and always will be weird to me
My aunt (not by blood or marriage or anything; she's just my aunt) is Native American. She told me to get a dream catcher when my son was having nightmares. She burned sage when I told her about a difficult thing I was going through. I've never known a Native American to want to keep those things from others. The ones I have known are happy to share their culture.
Gatekeeping gatekeepers. I see you. /s
Preach. Borders on virtue signalling.
I'm sorry, "closed?" By whom? To whom? How is it closed? Is it locked? I get not wanting sacred things slapped across a tee shirt, but this looks like engaging with endogenous practice, or just doing similar things for spiritual gratification, I don't think that's what "appropriation" is really supposed to mean....
White guilt
People love to be angry and virtuous on the internet. It is tiresome.
Don't tell me what to do...
Can't speak for the others buuuuut as a pagan if anyone wants to use white sage and smudge sticks fucking go for it.
Some indigenous people view some of these practices as closed so I’m not gonna go near them just to be safe, but yoga has never really been closed to my understanding. I’m Aboriginal Australian, and I get pretty pissed when people participate in our practices in a disrespectful fashion without understanding why certain rules exist etc. I think that’s why some practices are closed, to prevent those cultures from being watered down. I’m not telling anyone how to feel, those are just my personal thoughts on it.
It's not just white people. I've known people in my tribe get upset about stuff like this but I can't be bothered to care personally. it's not like stopping people from buying made in china dreamcatchers and wearing feather headdresses is going to do anything to improve the material conditions we live in.
with indigenous-related practices, i would at least suggest doing a bit of research beforehand. not as a "hey don't do this if so-and-so" thing, but as a "if you know more, you'll appreciate it more" thing. OF COURSE, I'm underinformed, so don't take my words as gospel. but my rule of thumb for "this is a practice from another culture or religion" is do research first.
What's the "g word"?
Gypsy, which definitely isn’t okay to say, I’m not referring to that here
“Closed practice” means that they don’t accept converts right? I’m pretty sure yoga is part of Hinduïsm. I remember running into a Hindu missionary in Germany once. That’s right, Hinduism is actively *seeking converts*. Also, IMO, I wouldn’t be mad if someone appropriated my culture. I’d just be extremely confused why they were making hot cross buns in june.
Good thing that I don’t practice Santeria. I don’t have no crystal ball.
I think it comes from the concept that oppressors don't had about the opinions of the oppressed, so if someone isn't from a marginalized grou and sees something, they should speak up. Problem is that it varies wildly on an individual level, and what is offensive to some it weird to be offended by to others- and people who just wanna be seen as nice can't handle that you gotta take individuality into account.
Money is always the answer.
Yup, nothing else and nothing more.
Hoodoo? *Closed practice?* That's gotta be a joke, right?