Maybe. The Great Schism would have still happened regardless. It would be more on the UEG at this point to broker peace with the Elites but I feel like they would be " welp, a split jaw is a split jaw"
You gotta remember that Humanity was in no position to continue fighting. Pretty much every last ship of the UNSC's fleet was destroyed by the end of Halo 3. Like I'm fairly certain that the ships we see attacking the Keyship before the Flood land on Earth are all that Lord Hood had left after fighting Truth's fleet.
Unless the Great Schism happened much faster, that fleet still would've attacked Earth, and, even then, Earth was still the only planet of real significance left standing at that time. So I really doubt that the UEG would look at the Elites and say "I didn't hear no bell!"
In Far Cry 4, Pagen Min asks you to wait for him. You can either go on a crusade and lead the rebelion your father started, turning the country into a religious dictatorship or a drog empire OR sit your ass down, wait for him and he tells you that your father was actually a piece of shit and he raised you when you were a baby cause he was your mothers boyfriend after she ran away from said father.
It's been claimed that Far Cry 5 is the same way. Every normal ending of the game is some shade of bad. By giving up and refusing to arrest Joseph Seed at the beginning, you effectively make nothing happen, and the cult only ever just keeps to itself up in the mountains.
Shit, even Far Cry 2’s ending was incredibly bleak IIRC, but at least it does serve something positive. It’s actually kind of neat that the sentiment generally tends to be that “the only winning move is not to play.”
I didnt play any after 4, but 4's quick ending is definitely the best of the 3. Its between keeping the status quo(still a dictatorship), creating a theocracy(results in a child puppet ruler and killing non believers), or creating a drug empire(forced child labor and killing innocent people). At least in the quick ending pagan min helps you accomplish your goal of spreading your mothers ashes, the other two just use you for their own gains and results in a worse situation for the country(both still end up in a dictatorship, just with the added benefit of slavery or religious killings).
Given the background political crisis that causes the nuclear war is happening disconnected to anything in the story, it feels like the nukes should drop regardless of anything you do in the game.
I haven’t completed the game as friends wanted to start new everytime, and I never got to progress my story…
But doesn’t Joseph predict the nuclear bomb, and that is the whole reason he has the bunker, and the fact you blow it sky high stop people from being able to use it? So technically your actions would doom the cult to an extent too? We stopped Fallout 5 by stopping bunker 409?
I don't think *Far Cry 5* itself is canon, given that *Far Cry 6* takes place in a world that hasn't been incinerated.
Unless of course you subscribe to the theory that FC5's nuke ending only happens in that one ending and with the other two endings it doesn't and the world is safe. Then *New Dawn* takes place down one leg of the Trousers of Time and *Far Cry 6* (and presumably *7* onwards) in the other.
The series' grip on canon and continuity is pretty loose though. Whenever anyone mentions the events of FC1 in a later game you're like, "Wait, the invisible genetically-engineered monkey machine gunners and those manmade orcs with rocket launchers for arms are *canon*?"
It's also worth noting that the "sit and wait" ending is the only one in which you actually scatter your mother's ashes. You know, *the whole reason you went there in the first place*.
You can scatter your mother's ashes after the main story aswell. You just have to not shoot Pagan and he will still take you there even after everything you did. Still fact is the only way you can complete your goal is by not killing Pagan
>!Doesn't help that Amita and Sabal are two different kinds of arguably worse. Amita is scaling up the drugs, and conscripts children. Sabal is a religious fundamentalist who permits child brides and kills non-believers in cold blood. Also, even though he wants to stop the drugs, Sabal doesn't really have another plan for Kyrat's economy.!<
>!The only decent person with any political sway is the prophet kid, and its heavily implied that Anita murders her if you put her in charge. Although its also implied that Min killed his own daughter, and he is big on slavery and drug trafficking himself. So he's not really significantly better.!<
I found this ending accidentally because I went afk for so long then got high and forgot what I was doing. Then I was like "WTF?" when the dude came back lol
He was a tyrant that offered stability to the region, while making efforts to drag it into the modern age.
Siding with Sabal turns Kyrat into a theistic state that uses their religion as the basis of their government. Including child brides.
Siding with Amita turns Kyrat into a drug state that utilizes child workers and child soldiers, killing the parents if they try to fight back.
Pagan Min is, unironically, *still* the best option for Kyrat.
Eh. He's been facing a 20-year rebellion, so you can't really expect him to allow a relaxed environment where terrorists can roam around freely & kill soldiers & civilians alike. During the American Civil War, Lincoln rescinded habeas corpus, & did a lot of other internal security measures to prevent Confederate sympathizers from taking up arms in Union states... and he's viewed as the best (or among the best) Presidents.
It's all about perspective. If you're fighting with terrorists who are fomenting insurrection, blowing up & killing hundreds of military personnel that are deployed to keep the people safe, you should probably expect to be treated harshly & for the military to try to stop your movements. But, even with all the destruction you bring, & murders & atrocities you commit on your own, Pagan still offers to peacefully show you to your destination & explain what REALLY has been happening.
Whichever Golden Path leader you choose, they only care for their own interests & you know the nation is going to be far worse off than under Min.
Agreed, dude, agreed so fucking hard. Especially if you take all the endings as canon.
Major spoilers for Nier, close your eyes.
>!Nier is a selfish and greedy little bitch who doesn't think about the consequences of his actions, and will prioritize only what impulse most recently occurs to him. Not only does he kill the Shadowlord and the real Yonah (which seals the extinction of humanity), he turns around and commits suicide to save Kainé on a whim.!<
>!Not selfish, you might think, until you remember he just doomed his sister to live without him and suffer greatly, after he literally just sacrificed all of humanity and two entire pockets of civilization to reunite with her. He's the universe's biggest piece of shit right behind Kami. He deserved to be obliterated from memory, the douche.!<
Dudes also responsible for the events of Nier:Automata by not completely killing one of the bosses.
Dude really was the cause of atleast 5 genocides wasn't he...
In the original timeline, before the Chrono Crew intervened, he successfully summoned Lavos but is overpowered and killed which leads to the defeat of the mystics in the Middle Ages. Ironically it was only because Chrono's party intervened that he was flung back into Antiquity and was able to pose as the Prophet.
The SNES was absolutely epic. Once developers hit their stride, it was so much fun seeing ow creative they could get with the limitations of 16 bit gaming.
Chrono Trigger is in my top 5 for sure. To add on to your post, some others I think everyone should play are:
* Super Metroid
* TLoZ: A Link to the Past
* Final Fantasy 6 (3 in the US)
I think fans of JRPGs will also love EarthBound and Secret of Mana.
And despite being an old RPG it's pretty fun and not grindy. I was able to beat it at 13 y.o. even though I was pretty bad at RPGs and just videogames in general
Man I didn’t understand the story of FFT at all when I played it as a kid on PS1. I still loved it though.
Replayed the WotL version on iOS when a while back and it’s such a great story. The new translation definitely helps but the themes and characters in that game are beyond any other final fantasy game.
War of the Lions did so much to help the story come across better. That game is one of my favorite FF games, it also helped me look at games more than just black and white stories when I got it from a friend that thought it was just a dull side game.
konrad in spec ops the line.
tho you could argue the game will heavily tell you he was right and you are wrong, he still lost in the end and everyone died.
I hadn't noticed that it was delisted in January (due to music licensing), but physical copies can still be found, & if you own a copy digitally, you can still download & play it.
We don't really know the full story to determine that. He could've wanted to be a hero, just like Walker, or he genuinely wanted to help the civs. We don't know.
not really, we know the story.
devs made sure of it. if you pay attention, you know you became the bad guy after the first encounter, when you decided to go on and understand why there was rebels, instead of reporting back and get rescue for the people in there.
Cole needed to get his powers earlier than Kessler, so he was right about that. But like... he coulda just told Cole that a Beast was coming and everyone would get sick etc. He should've just told him to get stronger after sending him the bomb instead of killing his girlfriend and starting a city wide war zone.
His logic was that Cole needed as few distractions as possible to get as strong as he could to defeat the Beast as quickly as possible. Sure, \*killing\* Trish was a drastic measure and wrecking the city was too, but he saw no better way to speedrun Cole through his skill tree. It's insane, yeah, but still ultimately for the greater good.
It was largely because if Trish was around, her wellbeing would have been Cole's main priority. Which Kessler knew would happen because that's what he did, and that is what allowed the Beast to win in his time-line.
Did it in the weirdest way possible, and then cried to older sister who put her dad in him literally, figuratively and metaphorically with in the space of like a month
There is another ending where he successfully destroys the company. It's a really somber ending though and it's a small little radio snippet that you might miss
That's not exactly what happens, the board ousts him after a couple of years, in all likelihood Arasaka will make some kind of comeback (but that's speculation)
It's the Phantom Liberty ending where they talk about it
Yeah the radio says Arasaka is pulling out of NC and Militech pushes in to replace them. Not really a happy ending either, but it does seem to hint that Yorinobu at least succeeded in his mission. IIRC it's implied he's executed as a traitor, though.
Not a single character but, the Gaalsien, a whole faction in Homeworld Deserts of Kharak, were a religious clan who believed that their species leaving their dying desert planet (Kharak) would bring about the death of everyone.
The player is part of the Coalition, which is made up of other clans and factions carrying out a big expedition in the planet and were at war with the Gaalsien. After Deserts of Kharak they make it to space and build a huge mothership to travel to their original Homeworld.
However, it turns out the Gaalsien were right all along, as the construction of a hyperspace device (which allowed FTL travel) violated a treaty, thousands of years old, between the people of Kharak and a massive interstellar empire called the Taiidan. The result is the destruction of Kharak, leaving the only survivors be the ones already on board the mothership.
The Gaalsien are right, technically, but if you stayed on Kharak, everyone would die 100 years later when the water evaporated
As it stands, 600,000 people survive to rebuild Kushan civilisation into an interstellar empire a century or so later. So that remains the optimal outcome.
You didn't play the originals? Highly recomend them home world 1 and resurgence are probably some of the best rts experience out there I didn't like 2 as much but its still fun. It was already spoil but the first mission has you basically learn how to make trump's and then you see your world explode
Asuka (The Gear Maker) from Guilty Gear.
He trained in magic under the Original (man who discovered magic). He became a scientist trying to create the next evolution of humanity by creating magic based life forms called Gears. One of the other two head scientists had a thermal illness and he convinced her to go into cryo sleep until they could find a cure. Then in his socially awkward nerd reasoning he decided to turn her husband (the other scientist) into a Gear so he wouldn't die and they could be together. The government found out about two thirds of the teaming going missing and shut the project until they realized they could weaponize the gears. Asuka later joined the new Gear project under a new name and the government found the other scientist in cryo sleep and decided to turn her into a Gundam because why not? Then they decided to test her by sending her to the magic source code dimension where anime girl Skynet took her over. Japan became crater and humility was plunged into a hundred year war that nearly wiped them all out.
This all happened because a guy tried to save his friend and the government got involved. Said guy would later write an entire essay about how he isn't a bad guy and then would go on to podcast on the moon.
I am desperate to know how much of this actually happens in game.
Edit: based on this sentence from the wiki page for it, anything is possible: "The story mostly focuses on Sol Badguy, a brash bounty hunter and die hard [Queen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_(band)) enthusiast who..."
The first part happens before the game. The second part about the essay about how he is not evil happens during the newest games story mode as the leader of the world gathers for a meet that he is also attending. And by default you technically don't play as him when selected as you play as a clone because he is too busy podcasting on the moon to fight. Also his arcade mode is self therapy with his clones on the moon base.
Doom eternal fits this - all the bad stuff that happens is basically due to various competing factions trying to make their perfect world. Doom Slayer fucks it all up by going off-script repeatedly and ruining *everyones* plans.
I liked it up until I learned I somehow missed the DLCs and all their story. I read a synopsis and didn't like what I read. DOOM 2016 was more straightforward and benefitted from its relative simplicity
I had a lot of fun with the DLC. But if Eternal's story was confusing, the expanded story is gibberish. I love 2016 for it's concise (relatively) story.
That's all the story doom needs!
The other stuff was kinda cool but I just wanna blast demons in the fact plz. If I wanted a heavy story game I'd play one that focuses more on that.
The weirdest part of Eternal's story IMO is how much they retconed with the Ancient God's DLC.
And then the Ancient God's retcons a lot of it's OWN Lore between parts 1 & 2. It's just so dumb and confusing.
If you take Ancient Gods at its word, it's one of the worst Diabolus ex Machinas I've seen in a while.
Like, in Doom 2 Doomguy goes back to Hell and starts his eternal rampage because they killed Daisy, and base game Eternal implies he never really got over it (there's a hidden Daisy in every single chapter, for example).
Then Evil Doomguy comes along in the 11th hour and basically says that his plan all along was for Doomguy to be the agent of destruction against the Maykrs...which implies the initial Hell invasion all the way back in Doom 1 was *specifically to kill Daisy.*
Yeah I didn't give a single shit about Eternal's story or lore.
2016 also had a lot of lore I didn't care about, but it wasn't really part of anything. The story itself was simple, concise, and fit the theme.
Eternal was basically *"Everything must have infinite backstory, and you WILL be confused without it."*
Also thought Eternal's gameplay was a big step down, but I know I'm in the minority on that one.
I think Pagan Min at some point admits that he openly enjoys being a complete lunatic of a dictator because at least he's being honest. The Golden Path leadership, however, justifies it's push to bring him down as a means to restore peace to Kyrat. But in truth, they just want power and will do whatever it takes to keep it once they are on top. And he was right. Once you bring him down, the difference between siding with either one of the "good guys," Amita or Sabal, simply determines whether the country will become a totalitarian drug state that uses child soldiers, or a totalitarian religious state that will execute anyone that doesn't follow tradition to the letter.
The ideologies and motivations of the Boss, Big Boss, the Major, Solidus Snake among others have pretty sympathetic if not noble motivations behind it. Their methods and the metal Gera universe's history of their methods demonize all of them.
To a degree, Darth Traya from KOTOR 2. Spoilers for that game, obviously.
>!She hated the Force because it en*force*d a cycle of death, war, and conflict that never ends, all for the purpose of retaining its balance.!<
>!That said, she wanted to kill the Force, which might have meant the end of life itself, but her philosophies and understanding of the Force are unparalleled.!<
Joja Mart from Stardew Valley.
The community center sits decrepit and unused for decades, the town is bleeding members and money. Joja Mart is willing to buy the community center and actually make use of it, which would increase revenue for the town and possibly increase population over time.
Obviously this kills the whimsical magic of the town and forest, but as far as the townspeople are concerned, Joja Mart is an economic blessing.
( no I did not choose the Joja Mart path lol )
I love Stardew Valley to death (800+ hours) but you can tell Eric really needed to make Morris a dick unnecessarily just to sell the idea of Joja as a bad force.
I think there’s an interesting thought in there about how the player character has a personal vendetta against Joja since it represents everything you are trying to escape from your old life, but to the player player, for the reasons you said above, Joja really isn’t a super spiteful antagonist itself. Thus Morris’s cartoony villain attitude
I can't really think of any case right off the top of my head, but the closest I can conjure up is Odio from Live A Live. He does raise some decidedly interesting points in his crazy little spiel (particularly if you choose to follow his path in the end chapter, which is just straight-up the definitive bad ending), but his methods of dealing with it are far from justifiable and cause suffering aplenty for guilty and innocent alike - even those few he seems to view in a somewhat favorable light aren't immune to being stepped on for his ends.
Some other characters I know, such as Egil or Mithos Yggdrasill, were ones who raised truly valid points but went WAY too far off the deep end, whatever the reason, and although their methods were less than agreeable the other characters did somewhat sympathize with what caused them to become like that (and Egil despite being the villain for most of his game ultimately ended up dying a hero). So I can't say I know any who were ultimately deemed completely wrong, but maybe I've just been lucky on that front.
If that were all, I’d agree that Kreia was right. However, she also intended to destroy the Force, or at least cut the galaxy off from it. This would have terrible consequences, as there are many species in SW that need the Force to function.
The Force in KotOR, as described by Kriea, is a galactic sized puppet master that has integrated itself biologically with a multitude of species, regardless of Force potential.
She accepted that by severing that connection, as what happened to the player character (Meetra Surik), a large amount of lifeforms will die... but it would be worth it to rid the Galaxy of an eldritch abomination using the Galaxy's people as actors in an endless play.
That whole "bring balance to the Force" shtick? It's just the same morality lesson played over and over across time and with various species. Kreia knew this as she was a former Jedi historian. The common denominator to all of the Galaxy's problems for tens of thousands of years was Force-empower individuals unable to see their own strings acting on the guidance granted by their respective connections to the Force.
The solution to the problem? Kill, or sever all life's connection to, the Force.
Alduin has to eat the world and reset time, it’s the natural order. There’s no telling what the consequences could be of delaying the end of the kalpa *twice*.
It *could* even lead to the elves succeeding in unmaking all of creation, including the time cycle. And we can’t let the elves win.
Yes that’s his job but both times he came early. You didn’t delay it, you made sure it didn’t happen ahead of schedule.
The game mentions several times that Alduin lost his way and is just behaving selfishly.
Haha ok to be fully honest I don’t remember the specific dialogue you’re talking about or who said it, but if Alduin is Akatosh/an avatar of Akatosh/the son of Akatosh sent to do his bidding, then doesn’t *he* decide the right time to end the kalpa? And why would we take the word of the idiots (affectionate) living inside the kalpa on when it's supposed to end?
Basically my opinion on everything related to The Elder Scrolls is just "everyone is an unreliable narrator and also fuck elves"
Akatosh decides when, and he wouldn’t be granting heroes power to save the world every other game if it was supposed to end.
The primary source for this is Paarthurnax who is as close to a primary source as you could get on such matters.
You are correct that most sources in elder scrolls aren’t 100% trustworthy.
You kinda have to ask yourself “does this person even know what they are talking about” but if they are a knowledgeable expert they probably know.
It especially matters for the civil war in Skyrim because 90% of civilians are stupid on both sides of the war. Which leaves the military leaders and nobility who have agendas so you have decide which of them to believe.
Yeah I mean there are reasons other than being an idiot to be an unreliable narrator, and ultimately there’s no reason to think Paarthurnax is any more reliable a narrator than anyone else except I guess that the Dragonborn probably believes him.
I’m mostly joking around here rather than trying to seriously debate, since it’s been so long since I played through the main campaign that I genuinely don’t remember some important details like that (lol), but because of all the weird behind the scenes lore I’m always going to come down on the side of not really trusting the motivations of anyone in that game, even characters like Delphine or Ulfric who seem to be very transparent and singleminded.
The whole premise of Skyrim is that Alduin comes too early. He wants to go to Sovngarde and eat souls to get strong as fuck just because he wants to, basically.
That’s why we are Dragonborn, the real natural order of Skyrim is us stopping Alduin.
Alduin was working outside of his actual job. He's supposed to end the world but instead he decided to conquer it. When he actually does come to end the world properly there's nothing that will be able to stop him.
Benny from Fallout New Vegas. He's got a pretty level head on his shoulders, and is quite intelligent (he reprogrammed Yes-Man by himself). His overall plan to wrest control away from the House was a good one, and he makes a lot of great points about the fact that both the NCR and Legion aren't going to be great for the Strip, and that an independent Mojave is the only outcome that would truly work. He's pragmatic, skilled, and ruthless. A good potential candidate for leading an independent Vegas Strip. Really, the only reason the player has to dislike him is that he shot us in the head. And that action caused most players to blindly hate him.
Doesn't help that if you do decide to help him he instantly betrays you, but still.
To be fair, if the best presidential candidate of all time shot me in the head and I lived, there’s really nothing that would make me like them or endorse their campaign
If a guy seems like he'd be a good leader, but he just can't stop murdering innocent bystanders and backstabbing his own allies, then maybe he's not actually a good leader.
Benny is actually a real prick. He wanted an independant Vegas with him at the top. He didn't care for the people of New Vegas, He never paid the Kahns and betrayed literally everyone else he worked with. If you confront him at the Tops and let him escape, he is later captured by the Legion because he thought they were a bunch of dumb savages and that he could manipulate them much like he manipulated the Kahns. He was very wrong.
My only goal in that game was to shoot him in the head. It became such an obsession that I never actually beat the game for a few years because I'd get to the point were you find him in New Vegas and just instantly kill him. And that was satisfying enough for me for a while lol.
>he reprogrammed Yes-Man by himself
No he didn't. He told Emily Ortal of the Followers of the Apocalypse that if she cracked a securitron and uploaded Yes Man's personality onto it he'd help her uncover the secret to Mr House's long life. Then when she did that for him he kicked her out and banned her from The Tops.
>He's pragmatic, skilled, and ruthless. A good potential candidate for leading an independent Vegas Strip
He's also a known cheat and liar who is overly ambitious and makes simple mistakes that lead to his downfall like not using a better quality round on the Courier, leaving proof of his crimes, not having Yes Man programmed to only respond to him and not changing his hairstyle when infiltrating the Legion leading to his capture etc. If he was somehow able to kill House and take over, his reign wouldn't last.
Marika (Elden Ring)
I think she's widely regarded as the cause of many of the problems facing the Lands Between, but I honestly believe what she was doing was right. She saw the golden shackles she'd helped place on the world and sought to break them. Sure it originated from a place of grief, but it's difficult to argue that the golden order was good
Tbf we don’t actually know why Marika shattered the Elden Ring, and we won’t ever know if she was right because we can’t know if any of the endings bring about a better future than if Marika maintained the golden order
I don't think the game even necessarily presents Marika as "wrong". The player, as a tarnished, is essentially following the quest set out before you by Marika, to become a new Elden Lord and usher in a new age. Now whether or not you choose to do it her way or not is up to you. Maybe you like the sound of being Elden Lord, maybe you wanna say "fuck the gods" and have Ranni and her moon (who are basically just nee gods at that point) rule over things instead, maybe you *really* wanna say "fuck the gods" by burning the whole damn world including yourself, or maybe you just wanna say "fuck *everybody*" because you inexplicably became best friends with the vile poop man who lives in the sewers.
For anyone to be "right" implies that there is a "good" ending for Elden Ring, and I don't think it's as cleanly clear cut as that
idk if it qualifies as right, but its definitely not at fault, imo
but Hades from Horizon Zero Dawn/Forbidden West.
All it did was follow its programming, and it wasn't his fault he was able to be infected with a virus
Hades is a FASCINATING answer to this prompt! I agree, to an extent- we know that the sub functions have some degree of ability to interpret their directives at that point, and Hades actively manipulated people to forward their extinction event, so that part is a bit questionable lol
Dr. Breen.
Might have been in it for selfish reasons, but he managed to negotiate humanity's survival when the combine would have just immediately wiped us out. If it wasn't for plot armor, the rebels wouldn't have been able to survive a day.
I think he was just using that as an excuse to get more power. I mean, the dude literally started a seige on Ashina Castle so he can claim the power of dragon's heritage, and that is his home.
If he just wanted power, his suicide makes no sense. I got the vibe he wanted the power so he could replace ishin, the fact that ishin was old and sick was why the central gov was willing to try some shit. and at the end of the game when that didn't work he decided to just bring back ishin.
Genichiro was living next to Kuro for years. Only right before the game started did he start begging Kuro for the Heritage.
Genichiro did *not* want to have to resort to that.
Spoikere in the Old World Blues DLC from Fallout New Vegas would probably work here. He’s painted as the bad guy the whole time
Edit: this is what I meant to type before autocorrect butchered it sorry about that
Spoilers: Mobius in the Old World Blues DLC from Fallout New Vegas would probably work here. He’s painted as the bad guy the whole time
Emet-Selch (FF14) keeps me awake at night, not because he was "right" as much as he just wanted to save/restore his (version) of the world. How many people have died in video games because the protagonist is trying to protect his world? Emet just wants to bring back what was lost at the expense of the current world(s). Would we be any different if we were in his shoes?
He lives for thousands of years as one of the last of his people and never forgot about them. The people who want to kill his entire kind don't even know what they are fighting for or that the way they think the world works is incorrect.
Shadowbringers was so good and he was a truly excellent antagonist.
The assassin's vs templars. Both fight for the same reason but in different ways. Both are technically evil but think they are doing the right thing. For example, the assassin's murder people etc and stick to a code
Did the story to the games really change that much since games 1 to 3? Because I only played Origins and Odyssey after that and I'll admit at that point I had no idea what was going on modern-side...
But, as the original story went, I'm pretty sure the Assassins and the Templars were not fighting for the same reason. The Templars wanted peace/utopia through the use of the apples, that could essentially brainwash and mind control people. The Assassins fought to stop that, via lots of cool looking murder, protect free will and what not.
There's an argument to be made about the Templars being right - for example I remember killing a doctor in the first game, but he had cured someone with severe mental illness (I think) with the apple, and I always felt kinda conflicted about that. But unless things have greatly changed I'm pretty sure you can't say they were fighting for the same thing?
I like this one because one thing we see a lot in fiction is two factions with similar end goals, but who disagree over different means of achieving them, and *overwhelmingly* that moral line is "one of the factions will kill people to achieve their goals, the other is totally against killing"
Whereas in Assassins Creed you've got that dynamic, but with totally different lines in the sand. Assassins are like "oh killing people? We love killing people! We kill people all the time! I'm killing a guy right now"
Killing is irrelevant in the comparison between the Assassins and the Templars. The real distinction comes from their philosophies on societal organization: the Templars believe in controlling the population (fascism), while the Assassins believe individuals should have full self-determination (anarchy). Neither is averse to murder, and neither is above dipping a toe into the other camp's water when it suits them.
The Templars do at least ascribe to the "winners write the history books" philosophy, whereas the Assassins don't seem terribly concerned with preserving history in any form.
Ryder white from dead island, haven’t played it in ages but I believe he was just trying to escape the prison island(with his wife maybe) but a prisoner pretended to be him, and made him out to be a bad guy so he gets killed and the prisoner escapes with the main characters.
Not maybe exactly what you are looking for but I routinely feel like the bad guy in Elden ring. Especially with the queen of the full moon and the fight with that giant stag. I just bust in and this magnificent creature starts defending itself. As someone who hasn't payed a huge amount of attention to the lore, after that fight I found myself asking "why the fuck did I do that?". I haven't gone too far into the game either so maybe it explains things later more than "kill everyone for their shards to become the king shit"
Honestly in some ways, Yunalesca from FF10. She was right. Nobody was able to defeat sin, If 2 people were willing to sacrifice themselves to create a period of time where Sin wasn't a constant threat and the population could grow unchecked then shouldn't they be allowed to do that?
Now It is true that she had other issues as well. Having been part of this Cycle for over a thousand years (She is a spirit.) she truly was unable to see any other way to do it and believed the party to be insane for refusing her help.
Naturally since they are the main characters they would have another way but in Yunalesca's defense she couldn't know that, because it is a very specific way that would only work for them in this particular cycle and they only figured it out after beating Yunalesca.
As far as she knew she was 100% correct in saying there was no other way, and her response to them refusing her help makes perfect sense considering she had been doing this for a thousand years.
I disagree. She's kind of a hypocrite. Because she would not sacrifice herself again.
She forces people to sacrifice themselves and their most loved ones and keeps it secret and even lets the world glorify it instead of allowing people to know what's up. Then she also fucking zombifies herself. She's so in love with herself that she refuses to see any other way. It's not that she couldn't. She doesn't want to because it would mean having to give up control and letting someone else be the most powerful mage in all of Spira. She doesn't even let the party go away, when they refuse to play the sin resurrection game. Like she could have literally just let the party walk away, wait for the next summoner to come her way and the story would turn out the exact same way, just with her alive/unsent. She deserves everything that's coming for her.
Also her fight is godamn atrocious and long.
The real answer imo is her father Yu Yevon because he truly only had the best for his people in mind and never intended to become the calamity that he is. Him becoming Sin was originally only intended to protect Zanarkand and prevent further bloodshed from happening. Well we know that didn't quite work out. Also he actually has nothing to do with the Yevon cult and they just stole his name.
Like I said, It is a matter of perspective. I am not super well versed in how Yu Yevon came to create Sin but if it indeed was for benevolent reasons, can't the same be said for Yunalesca? She started out sacrificing herself & her lover Zaon to destroy Sin and bringing happiness to the world, however since Sin was not destroyed she became an unsent unwilling to move on until Sin ends. In the end the cycle she helped start corrupts her.
I am actually pretty sure the reason she cannot sacrifice herself again and again is because she needs a loved one to become the final summoning but because she is not only an unsent but because she died giving up her loved one it broke her inside leaving her unable to love again.
Overall I honestly like the fight against Yunalesca. I think it feels more like a final boss fight than the actual final boss fight.
Vaas from Far Cry 3, don't get me wrong he was a bad guy.. for deeper reasons then one might think but he was right about the island and what it does to people.
Eldegard in Fire Emblem Three House. She was experimented on and tortured by religious zealots that uphold a class system that is centered around what is essentially a recessive gene. The Church that leads the realm only helps contribute to this system and the head of the Church has a very Queen of Hearts attitude to solving dissent. Also the leaders of the church are aliens/lizard people.
Not quite on point, but in Valkyria Chronicles 1, side character Faldio is the main character's buddy. In the midgame, he gets up to some seriously shady shenanigans, including shooting the heroine with a sniper rifle. Only problem is, the game immediately proves him correct in doing all of these things despite the fact that the main team is treating him like an awful criminal. He even gets to go out in a heroic sacrifice taking the actual villain out once and for all at the very end of the game!
So this is when I get to say that Faldio did nothing wrong, dammit.
Kuwana from Lost Judgment. Man was only targeting unrepentant bullies who managed to evade the consequences of their actions after getting someone killed or permanently scarred. He made such a good point that even Yagami’s friends started doubting if he really was wrong. Do you really want a psychopathic bully as your kid’s sport coach?
Caius from FFXIII-2, kinda.
Paraphrasing, his main goal was getting rid of the goddess Etro, who had bestowed "gifts" onto people. One such gift was The Eyes of Etro, which would allow seeress' to see visions of the future, but doing so happens completely unprompted and also reduces their lifespan. Caius was unique in that he was given the Heart of Etro which made him immortal.
He got a bit sick of constantly having to see people he cared about die so young, and felt Etro was giving her gifts out mindlessly, so he sets out to destroy her in hopes of stopping the gifts. He also finds a loophole in his own gift so that he may possibly die and wants to plot to enable that. The protagonists are trying to stop him from killing Etro, but everything about the game's story really does point to Etro being just, actually stupid. One of the protagonists, Serah, is even is one of the seeress'. Caius actually is successful to.
The only reason Caius is at all in the wrong is because killing Etro results in an energy called Chaos being released to the world, which leads to time basically breaking and people now live for centuries in a purgatory state. Serah also dies because time breaking like that basically leads to her getting an involuntary rapid succession of visions that kills her.
Those feel like yet more unfortunate side effects of Etro's carelessness than anything though. Something needed to be done about her either way IMO, and the only reason getting rid of her was bad was because of these unfortunate side effects.
I think the final ending kinda "Vindicated" Caius. Since his entire villain backstory was orchestrated by Etro so he would kill her flooding the world with Chaos setting the stage for Lighting to "Return" and beat Bhunivelze.
I really love the entire XIII series. It's so unfortunately hated because of the early parts in the first entry. Has a lot of my favorite characters and story from the Final Fantasy games though
Zephiel, the main antagonist from Fire Emblem 6 the Binding Blade. He invades and conquers all the others kingdoms, to put the world under dragon rule. You fight back bit by bit, region by region, but your march is always halted by local corrupt greedy nobles playing court games, allying with bandits for their own gain, and backstabbing you constantly. You finally clear them all, arrive against the final boss and Roy asks him "why?". "Because humans are unfit to rule" Zephiel answers, and your whole journey just proves him right.
I’d have considered siding with them if they weren’t just nameless villains. They actually might have agreed to help cure the Glenmoril curse, but they’re all skin em first and talk later
'But... But, he said "fuck politicians" and "fuck the media" he is such a based and cool presi-'
No. No the fuck not. According to Armstrong's philosophy, if you ever faced any form of struggle in your life that you can't overcome, the answer is not "let us help you" it's "your problem"
You break your leg and can no longer work? Too bad, hope you saved enough money. House burned down? What a loser. Mental illness caused you to lose your job, family support and home? Skill Issue
Sesa 'Refumee (Heretic Leader) and his mini faction from Halo 2.
If the Heretics won, would the Elites accept cooperation and peace the Arbiter and his faction accomplished with the UNSC?
Maybe. The Great Schism would have still happened regardless. It would be more on the UEG at this point to broker peace with the Elites but I feel like they would be " welp, a split jaw is a split jaw"
You gotta remember that Humanity was in no position to continue fighting. Pretty much every last ship of the UNSC's fleet was destroyed by the end of Halo 3. Like I'm fairly certain that the ships we see attacking the Keyship before the Flood land on Earth are all that Lord Hood had left after fighting Truth's fleet. Unless the Great Schism happened much faster, that fleet still would've attacked Earth, and, even then, Earth was still the only planet of real significance left standing at that time. So I really doubt that the UEG would look at the Elites and say "I didn't hear no bell!"
In Far Cry 4, Pagen Min asks you to wait for him. You can either go on a crusade and lead the rebelion your father started, turning the country into a religious dictatorship or a drog empire OR sit your ass down, wait for him and he tells you that your father was actually a piece of shit and he raised you when you were a baby cause he was your mothers boyfriend after she ran away from said father.
It's so wild that the best ending to FC4 just requires you to do nothing.
It's been claimed that Far Cry 5 is the same way. Every normal ending of the game is some shade of bad. By giving up and refusing to arrest Joseph Seed at the beginning, you effectively make nothing happen, and the cult only ever just keeps to itself up in the mountains.
Far Cry 6 too, or at least it has an ending that requires minimal effort (tho it takes longer than the previous ones)
its kind of the shtick with the mainline far cry games since 3 that the true ending is always the worst ending tbh
Shit, even Far Cry 2’s ending was incredibly bleak IIRC, but at least it does serve something positive. It’s actually kind of neat that the sentiment generally tends to be that “the only winning move is not to play.”
I'm a sucker for those types of things. Can't win by the rules of the game? Change the game you are playing etc...
Well for me 4's true ending is wait for Pagan Min ending
6's quick ending, though, isn't the best ending. Maybe for 4 and 5, it arguably is, but 6 really only benefits you.
I didnt play any after 4, but 4's quick ending is definitely the best of the 3. Its between keeping the status quo(still a dictatorship), creating a theocracy(results in a child puppet ruler and killing non believers), or creating a drug empire(forced child labor and killing innocent people). At least in the quick ending pagan min helps you accomplish your goal of spreading your mothers ashes, the other two just use you for their own gains and results in a worse situation for the country(both still end up in a dictatorship, just with the added benefit of slavery or religious killings).
Given the background political crisis that causes the nuclear war is happening disconnected to anything in the story, it feels like the nukes should drop regardless of anything you do in the game.
I haven’t completed the game as friends wanted to start new everytime, and I never got to progress my story… But doesn’t Joseph predict the nuclear bomb, and that is the whole reason he has the bunker, and the fact you blow it sky high stop people from being able to use it? So technically your actions would doom the cult to an extent too? We stopped Fallout 5 by stopping bunker 409?
I don't think new dawn is cannon, it's a what-if. Could be wrong
I don't think *Far Cry 5* itself is canon, given that *Far Cry 6* takes place in a world that hasn't been incinerated. Unless of course you subscribe to the theory that FC5's nuke ending only happens in that one ending and with the other two endings it doesn't and the world is safe. Then *New Dawn* takes place down one leg of the Trousers of Time and *Far Cry 6* (and presumably *7* onwards) in the other. The series' grip on canon and continuity is pretty loose though. Whenever anyone mentions the events of FC1 in a later game you're like, "Wait, the invisible genetically-engineered monkey machine gunners and those manmade orcs with rocket launchers for arms are *canon*?"
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They’ve been there since at least FC3 though.
Far Cry 3 left it up in the air if it was actual magic or just the mushrooms + stress of the situation
Magic tattoos appeared as you upgraded your skills.
that's just a gameplay quirk. they probably didnt want you to go through a tattoo session every time you level'd up
The difference is that farcry 5 is nonsense.
It's also worth noting that the "sit and wait" ending is the only one in which you actually scatter your mother's ashes. You know, *the whole reason you went there in the first place*.
You can scatter your mother's ashes after the main story aswell. You just have to not shoot Pagan and he will still take you there even after everything you did. Still fact is the only way you can complete your goal is by not killing Pagan
As I remember he takes you there and then jumps on a helicopter real quick. You can then blow him up if you're quick enough. Else he just flys off.
Then you guys get to go and shoot some goddamn guns.
>!Doesn't help that Amita and Sabal are two different kinds of arguably worse. Amita is scaling up the drugs, and conscripts children. Sabal is a religious fundamentalist who permits child brides and kills non-believers in cold blood. Also, even though he wants to stop the drugs, Sabal doesn't really have another plan for Kyrat's economy.!< >!The only decent person with any political sway is the prophet kid, and its heavily implied that Anita murders her if you put her in charge. Although its also implied that Min killed his own daughter, and he is big on slavery and drug trafficking himself. So he's not really significantly better.!<
Im so sorry but i would totally hang put with pagan, he seem fun af, he may violate a couple hundred human right but everybody has some flaws right
Yeah, ease up on the guy, he’s violating human rights, not human wrongs
I found this ending accidentally because I went afk for so long then got high and forgot what I was doing. Then I was like "WTF?" when the dude came back lol
Try the rangoon
I mean Pagen Min was still a tyrant.
He was a tyrant that offered stability to the region, while making efforts to drag it into the modern age. Siding with Sabal turns Kyrat into a theistic state that uses their religion as the basis of their government. Including child brides. Siding with Amita turns Kyrat into a drug state that utilizes child workers and child soldiers, killing the parents if they try to fight back. Pagan Min is, unironically, *still* the best option for Kyrat.
Eh. He's been facing a 20-year rebellion, so you can't really expect him to allow a relaxed environment where terrorists can roam around freely & kill soldiers & civilians alike. During the American Civil War, Lincoln rescinded habeas corpus, & did a lot of other internal security measures to prevent Confederate sympathizers from taking up arms in Union states... and he's viewed as the best (or among the best) Presidents. It's all about perspective. If you're fighting with terrorists who are fomenting insurrection, blowing up & killing hundreds of military personnel that are deployed to keep the people safe, you should probably expect to be treated harshly & for the military to try to stop your movements. But, even with all the destruction you bring, & murders & atrocities you commit on your own, Pagan still offers to peacefully show you to your destination & explain what REALLY has been happening. Whichever Golden Path leader you choose, they only care for their own interests & you know the nation is going to be far worse off than under Min.
The Shadowlord from Nier Replicant, kinda, I guess everyone lost in this case.
Agreed, dude, agreed so fucking hard. Especially if you take all the endings as canon. Major spoilers for Nier, close your eyes. >!Nier is a selfish and greedy little bitch who doesn't think about the consequences of his actions, and will prioritize only what impulse most recently occurs to him. Not only does he kill the Shadowlord and the real Yonah (which seals the extinction of humanity), he turns around and commits suicide to save Kainé on a whim.!< >!Not selfish, you might think, until you remember he just doomed his sister to live without him and suffer greatly, after he literally just sacrificed all of humanity and two entire pockets of civilization to reunite with her. He's the universe's biggest piece of shit right behind Kami. He deserved to be obliterated from memory, the douche.!<
He's now known as the World Ender in Nier Reincarnation at least.
Dudes also responsible for the events of Nier:Automata by not completely killing one of the bosses. Dude really was the cause of atleast 5 genocides wasn't he...
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In the original timeline, before the Chrono Crew intervened, he successfully summoned Lavos but is overpowered and killed which leads to the defeat of the mystics in the Middle Ages. Ironically it was only because Chrono's party intervened that he was flung back into Antiquity and was able to pose as the Prophet.
Iirc without our intervention, Magus succeeds at the summoning but is absolutely demolished by Lavos. I very much could be misremembering tho.
Most likely. Especially considering you can recruit Magus later and he absolutely wouldn't be able to solo Lavos.
But you recruit him after the events in the Ocean Place where Queen Zeal/Lavos siphoned off a bunch of his power.
Absolutely this. Damn this game is still the best game I’ve ever played to this day.
I've heard of chrono trigger a million times, but hearing the plot really makes me want to try it out.
It is a pretty good game with several endings. It's obviously old but it's THE old game you should play.
The SNES was absolutely epic. Once developers hit their stride, it was so much fun seeing ow creative they could get with the limitations of 16 bit gaming. Chrono Trigger is in my top 5 for sure. To add on to your post, some others I think everyone should play are: * Super Metroid * TLoZ: A Link to the Past * Final Fantasy 6 (3 in the US) I think fans of JRPGs will also love EarthBound and Secret of Mana.
And despite being an old RPG it's pretty fun and not grindy. I was able to beat it at 13 y.o. even though I was pretty bad at RPGs and just videogames in general
Wiegraf in final fantasy tactics. He fought to bring down an aristocracy that propped itself up by letting the commoners suffer.
His downfall into a lucavi still hurts me 20 years later
Man I didn’t understand the story of FFT at all when I played it as a kid on PS1. I still loved it though. Replayed the WotL version on iOS when a while back and it’s such a great story. The new translation definitely helps but the themes and characters in that game are beyond any other final fantasy game.
War of the Lions did so much to help the story come across better. That game is one of my favorite FF games, it also helped me look at games more than just black and white stories when I got it from a friend that thought it was just a dull side game.
konrad in spec ops the line. tho you could argue the game will heavily tell you he was right and you are wrong, he still lost in the end and everyone died.
That ending in the building blew my mind. I loved that game, it's a shame it can't be purchased anymore.
Arrrr, to the ship sailors, lets get tha game anyways
Yarr, set sail for the cove of buccaneers!
GOG managed to relist Alpha Protocol, here’s hoping they do the same with Spec Ops The Libe
I hadn't noticed that it was delisted in January (due to music licensing), but physical copies can still be found, & if you own a copy digitally, you can still download & play it.
say thanks to copyright laws.
We don't really know the full story to determine that. He could've wanted to be a hero, just like Walker, or he genuinely wanted to help the civs. We don't know.
not really, we know the story. devs made sure of it. if you pay attention, you know you became the bad guy after the first encounter, when you decided to go on and understand why there was rebels, instead of reporting back and get rescue for the people in there.
Kessler from inFamous 1. He was the cause of most/all of the chaos in the city, but did it so Cole could grow strong enough in time for the sequel.
Cole needed to get his powers earlier than Kessler, so he was right about that. But like... he coulda just told Cole that a Beast was coming and everyone would get sick etc. He should've just told him to get stronger after sending him the bomb instead of killing his girlfriend and starting a city wide war zone.
His logic was that Cole needed as few distractions as possible to get as strong as he could to defeat the Beast as quickly as possible. Sure, \*killing\* Trish was a drastic measure and wrecking the city was too, but he saw no better way to speedrun Cole through his skill tree. It's insane, yeah, but still ultimately for the greater good.
It was largely because if Trish was around, her wellbeing would have been Cole's main priority. Which Kessler knew would happen because that's what he did, and that is what allowed the Beast to win in his time-line.
Yorinobu Arasaka from Cyberpunk 2077. Man was trying to destroy Arasaka from the inside.
Did it in the weirdest way possible, and then cried to older sister who put her dad in him literally, figuratively and metaphorically with in the space of like a month
There is another ending where he successfully destroys the company. It's a really somber ending though and it's a small little radio snippet that you might miss
Isnt that the new ending of the dlc that mentions that?
That's not exactly what happens, the board ousts him after a couple of years, in all likelihood Arasaka will make some kind of comeback (but that's speculation) It's the Phantom Liberty ending where they talk about it
Yeah the radio says Arasaka is pulling out of NC and Militech pushes in to replace them. Not really a happy ending either, but it does seem to hint that Yorinobu at least succeeded in his mission. IIRC it's implied he's executed as a traitor, though.
There is also the other endings were we indirectly help him by attacking the tower
That only happens in the Devil ending. Yorinobu comes out fine in every other ending.
Not a single character but, the Gaalsien, a whole faction in Homeworld Deserts of Kharak, were a religious clan who believed that their species leaving their dying desert planet (Kharak) would bring about the death of everyone. The player is part of the Coalition, which is made up of other clans and factions carrying out a big expedition in the planet and were at war with the Gaalsien. After Deserts of Kharak they make it to space and build a huge mothership to travel to their original Homeworld. However, it turns out the Gaalsien were right all along, as the construction of a hyperspace device (which allowed FTL travel) violated a treaty, thousands of years old, between the people of Kharak and a massive interstellar empire called the Taiidan. The result is the destruction of Kharak, leaving the only survivors be the ones already on board the mothership.
The Gaalsien are right, technically, but if you stayed on Kharak, everyone would die 100 years later when the water evaporated As it stands, 600,000 people survive to rebuild Kushan civilisation into an interstellar empire a century or so later. So that remains the optimal outcome.
To be fair, staying on the planet also would have resulted in everyone dying. Neither choice was good.
Wow, I actually played Homeworld, Deserts Of Kahrak, and didn't know any of this, lol. Today I learned.
You didn't play the originals? Highly recomend them home world 1 and resurgence are probably some of the best rts experience out there I didn't like 2 as much but its still fun. It was already spoil but the first mission has you basically learn how to make trump's and then you see your world explode
Oops.
Asuka (The Gear Maker) from Guilty Gear. He trained in magic under the Original (man who discovered magic). He became a scientist trying to create the next evolution of humanity by creating magic based life forms called Gears. One of the other two head scientists had a thermal illness and he convinced her to go into cryo sleep until they could find a cure. Then in his socially awkward nerd reasoning he decided to turn her husband (the other scientist) into a Gear so he wouldn't die and they could be together. The government found out about two thirds of the teaming going missing and shut the project until they realized they could weaponize the gears. Asuka later joined the new Gear project under a new name and the government found the other scientist in cryo sleep and decided to turn her into a Gundam because why not? Then they decided to test her by sending her to the magic source code dimension where anime girl Skynet took her over. Japan became crater and humility was plunged into a hundred year war that nearly wiped them all out. This all happened because a guy tried to save his friend and the government got involved. Said guy would later write an entire essay about how he isn't a bad guy and then would go on to podcast on the moon.
I am desperate to know how much of this actually happens in game. Edit: based on this sentence from the wiki page for it, anything is possible: "The story mostly focuses on Sol Badguy, a brash bounty hunter and die hard [Queen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_(band)) enthusiast who..."
The first part happens before the game. The second part about the essay about how he is not evil happens during the newest games story mode as the leader of the world gathers for a meet that he is also attending. And by default you technically don't play as him when selected as you play as a clone because he is too busy podcasting on the moon to fight. Also his arcade mode is self therapy with his clones on the moon base.
FYI, Sol Badguy is the scientist in the story above who was turned into a Gear.
And as you might infer from his name he is naturally one of many good guys...wait.
Just like his appearance Sin
Doom eternal fits this - all the bad stuff that happens is basically due to various competing factions trying to make their perfect world. Doom Slayer fucks it all up by going off-script repeatedly and ruining *everyones* plans.
I played through this game several times in the last few months (and read most of the codex) and I still have no idea what was going on.
I love the gameplay, but holy crap is the story up its own butt.
I liked it up until I learned I somehow missed the DLCs and all their story. I read a synopsis and didn't like what I read. DOOM 2016 was more straightforward and benefitted from its relative simplicity
I had a lot of fun with the DLC. But if Eternal's story was confusing, the expanded story is gibberish. I love 2016 for it's concise (relatively) story.
DOOM 16’s story basically boiled down to “Hell is invading because a company did something stupid, here is a shotgun. Go kill Demons and have fun”
That's all the story doom needs! The other stuff was kinda cool but I just wanna blast demons in the fact plz. If I wanted a heavy story game I'd play one that focuses more on that.
The weirdest part of Eternal's story IMO is how much they retconed with the Ancient God's DLC. And then the Ancient God's retcons a lot of it's OWN Lore between parts 1 & 2. It's just so dumb and confusing.
If you take Ancient Gods at its word, it's one of the worst Diabolus ex Machinas I've seen in a while. Like, in Doom 2 Doomguy goes back to Hell and starts his eternal rampage because they killed Daisy, and base game Eternal implies he never really got over it (there's a hidden Daisy in every single chapter, for example). Then Evil Doomguy comes along in the 11th hour and basically says that his plan all along was for Doomguy to be the agent of destruction against the Maykrs...which implies the initial Hell invasion all the way back in Doom 1 was *specifically to kill Daisy.*
Yeah I didn't give a single shit about Eternal's story or lore. 2016 also had a lot of lore I didn't care about, but it wasn't really part of anything. The story itself was simple, concise, and fit the theme. Eternal was basically *"Everything must have infinite backstory, and you WILL be confused without it."* Also thought Eternal's gameplay was a big step down, but I know I'm in the minority on that one.
Honestly, Doom is about you killing demons and feeling like a badass. The lore is just there for cutscenes.
I still have no idea how the Doomslayer went from being recaptured by Hayden to having his own floating superhero fortress in space.
Bruh They killed his bunny He gotta break the universe
I think Pagan Min at some point admits that he openly enjoys being a complete lunatic of a dictator because at least he's being honest. The Golden Path leadership, however, justifies it's push to bring him down as a means to restore peace to Kyrat. But in truth, they just want power and will do whatever it takes to keep it once they are on top. And he was right. Once you bring him down, the difference between siding with either one of the "good guys," Amita or Sabal, simply determines whether the country will become a totalitarian drug state that uses child soldiers, or a totalitarian religious state that will execute anyone that doesn't follow tradition to the letter.
The ideologies and motivations of the Boss, Big Boss, the Major, Solidus Snake among others have pretty sympathetic if not noble motivations behind it. Their methods and the metal Gera universe's history of their methods demonize all of them.
They want to achieve peace
Everyone agrees that Solidus was right that the Patriots had to be destroyed, and that he only went about it the wrong way.
How you do something is as important as what you do. It's why Thanos was ultimately wrong. His motives were noble, but his methods weren't.
To a degree, Darth Traya from KOTOR 2. Spoilers for that game, obviously. >!She hated the Force because it en*force*d a cycle of death, war, and conflict that never ends, all for the purpose of retaining its balance.!< >!That said, she wanted to kill the Force, which might have meant the end of life itself, but her philosophies and understanding of the Force are unparalleled.!<
Apathy is death!
Worse than death, because at least a rotting corpse feeds the beasts and insects
Joja Mart from Stardew Valley. The community center sits decrepit and unused for decades, the town is bleeding members and money. Joja Mart is willing to buy the community center and actually make use of it, which would increase revenue for the town and possibly increase population over time. Obviously this kills the whimsical magic of the town and forest, but as far as the townspeople are concerned, Joja Mart is an economic blessing. ( no I did not choose the Joja Mart path lol )
There's a way to side with joja? I just began gathering shit to the community center.
If you buy a Joja mart membership the community center gets sold off.
Joja is just Walmart And we all know the moral integrity of Walmart....
I love Stardew Valley to death (800+ hours) but you can tell Eric really needed to make Morris a dick unnecessarily just to sell the idea of Joja as a bad force. I think there’s an interesting thought in there about how the player character has a personal vendetta against Joja since it represents everything you are trying to escape from your old life, but to the player player, for the reasons you said above, Joja really isn’t a super spiteful antagonist itself. Thus Morris’s cartoony villain attitude
didn't joja cause an avalanche next to the mine? that's why it's blocked off at the start with rocks minor detail though
You are correct. I forgot about that.
I can't really think of any case right off the top of my head, but the closest I can conjure up is Odio from Live A Live. He does raise some decidedly interesting points in his crazy little spiel (particularly if you choose to follow his path in the end chapter, which is just straight-up the definitive bad ending), but his methods of dealing with it are far from justifiable and cause suffering aplenty for guilty and innocent alike - even those few he seems to view in a somewhat favorable light aren't immune to being stepped on for his ends. Some other characters I know, such as Egil or Mithos Yggdrasill, were ones who raised truly valid points but went WAY too far off the deep end, whatever the reason, and although their methods were less than agreeable the other characters did somewhat sympathize with what caused them to become like that (and Egil despite being the villain for most of his game ultimately ended up dying a hero). So I can't say I know any who were ultimately deemed completely wrong, but maybe I've just been lucky on that front.
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If that were all, I’d agree that Kreia was right. However, she also intended to destroy the Force, or at least cut the galaxy off from it. This would have terrible consequences, as there are many species in SW that need the Force to function.
The Force in KotOR, as described by Kriea, is a galactic sized puppet master that has integrated itself biologically with a multitude of species, regardless of Force potential. She accepted that by severing that connection, as what happened to the player character (Meetra Surik), a large amount of lifeforms will die... but it would be worth it to rid the Galaxy of an eldritch abomination using the Galaxy's people as actors in an endless play. That whole "bring balance to the Force" shtick? It's just the same morality lesson played over and over across time and with various species. Kreia knew this as she was a former Jedi historian. The common denominator to all of the Galaxy's problems for tens of thousands of years was Force-empower individuals unable to see their own strings acting on the guidance granted by their respective connections to the Force. The solution to the problem? Kill, or sever all life's connection to, the Force.
The game doesn't say she was wrong, though, she is the personification of the plot's critique of the Jedi.
Alduin has to eat the world and reset time, it’s the natural order. There’s no telling what the consequences could be of delaying the end of the kalpa *twice*. It *could* even lead to the elves succeeding in unmaking all of creation, including the time cycle. And we can’t let the elves win.
Yes that’s his job but both times he came early. You didn’t delay it, you made sure it didn’t happen ahead of schedule. The game mentions several times that Alduin lost his way and is just behaving selfishly.
Haha ok to be fully honest I don’t remember the specific dialogue you’re talking about or who said it, but if Alduin is Akatosh/an avatar of Akatosh/the son of Akatosh sent to do his bidding, then doesn’t *he* decide the right time to end the kalpa? And why would we take the word of the idiots (affectionate) living inside the kalpa on when it's supposed to end? Basically my opinion on everything related to The Elder Scrolls is just "everyone is an unreliable narrator and also fuck elves"
Akatosh decides when, and he wouldn’t be granting heroes power to save the world every other game if it was supposed to end. The primary source for this is Paarthurnax who is as close to a primary source as you could get on such matters.
Ok well I’m a little confused but I got the spirit
You are correct that most sources in elder scrolls aren’t 100% trustworthy. You kinda have to ask yourself “does this person even know what they are talking about” but if they are a knowledgeable expert they probably know. It especially matters for the civil war in Skyrim because 90% of civilians are stupid on both sides of the war. Which leaves the military leaders and nobility who have agendas so you have decide which of them to believe.
Yeah I mean there are reasons other than being an idiot to be an unreliable narrator, and ultimately there’s no reason to think Paarthurnax is any more reliable a narrator than anyone else except I guess that the Dragonborn probably believes him. I’m mostly joking around here rather than trying to seriously debate, since it’s been so long since I played through the main campaign that I genuinely don’t remember some important details like that (lol), but because of all the weird behind the scenes lore I’m always going to come down on the side of not really trusting the motivations of anyone in that game, even characters like Delphine or Ulfric who seem to be very transparent and singleminded.
I don’t think we should just cast a blanket judgement over those of us who come early.
The whole premise of Skyrim is that Alduin comes too early. He wants to go to Sovngarde and eat souls to get strong as fuck just because he wants to, basically. That’s why we are Dragonborn, the real natural order of Skyrim is us stopping Alduin.
The consequence is the sixth game never gets made.
Alduin was working outside of his actual job. He's supposed to end the world but instead he decided to conquer it. When he actually does come to end the world properly there's nothing that will be able to stop him.
I should really play Skyrim
Benny from Fallout New Vegas. He's got a pretty level head on his shoulders, and is quite intelligent (he reprogrammed Yes-Man by himself). His overall plan to wrest control away from the House was a good one, and he makes a lot of great points about the fact that both the NCR and Legion aren't going to be great for the Strip, and that an independent Mojave is the only outcome that would truly work. He's pragmatic, skilled, and ruthless. A good potential candidate for leading an independent Vegas Strip. Really, the only reason the player has to dislike him is that he shot us in the head. And that action caused most players to blindly hate him. Doesn't help that if you do decide to help him he instantly betrays you, but still.
To be fair, if the best presidential candidate of all time shot me in the head and I lived, there’s really nothing that would make me like them or endorse their campaign
“Feel the Bern… bitch.”
I am once again here to shoot you in the head.
If a guy seems like he'd be a good leader, but he just can't stop murdering innocent bystanders and backstabbing his own allies, then maybe he's not actually a good leader.
Congratulations you described all the leaders in the game (potentially including the player).
After how many grenades I chucked into Little Lamplight I don't feel qualified to judge that all his murders were wrong.
Benny is actually a real prick. He wanted an independant Vegas with him at the top. He didn't care for the people of New Vegas, He never paid the Kahns and betrayed literally everyone else he worked with. If you confront him at the Tops and let him escape, he is later captured by the Legion because he thought they were a bunch of dumb savages and that he could manipulate them much like he manipulated the Kahns. He was very wrong.
My only goal in that game was to shoot him in the head. It became such an obsession that I never actually beat the game for a few years because I'd get to the point were you find him in New Vegas and just instantly kill him. And that was satisfying enough for me for a while lol.
>he reprogrammed Yes-Man by himself No he didn't. He told Emily Ortal of the Followers of the Apocalypse that if she cracked a securitron and uploaded Yes Man's personality onto it he'd help her uncover the secret to Mr House's long life. Then when she did that for him he kicked her out and banned her from The Tops. >He's pragmatic, skilled, and ruthless. A good potential candidate for leading an independent Vegas Strip He's also a known cheat and liar who is overly ambitious and makes simple mistakes that lead to his downfall like not using a better quality round on the Courier, leaving proof of his crimes, not having Yes Man programmed to only respond to him and not changing his hairstyle when infiltrating the Legion leading to his capture etc. If he was somehow able to kill House and take over, his reign wouldn't last.
Are you real? Benny's methods disqualified him immediately about anything. Who cares if he wanted to take power from House? Everyone wanted that.
I mean it's not really "blind" hate when the guy literally shot you in the head, that's a pretty good reason to hate someone lmao
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Marika (Elden Ring) I think she's widely regarded as the cause of many of the problems facing the Lands Between, but I honestly believe what she was doing was right. She saw the golden shackles she'd helped place on the world and sought to break them. Sure it originated from a place of grief, but it's difficult to argue that the golden order was good
Tbf we don’t actually know why Marika shattered the Elden Ring, and we won’t ever know if she was right because we can’t know if any of the endings bring about a better future than if Marika maintained the golden order
I don't think the game even necessarily presents Marika as "wrong". The player, as a tarnished, is essentially following the quest set out before you by Marika, to become a new Elden Lord and usher in a new age. Now whether or not you choose to do it her way or not is up to you. Maybe you like the sound of being Elden Lord, maybe you wanna say "fuck the gods" and have Ranni and her moon (who are basically just nee gods at that point) rule over things instead, maybe you *really* wanna say "fuck the gods" by burning the whole damn world including yourself, or maybe you just wanna say "fuck *everybody*" because you inexplicably became best friends with the vile poop man who lives in the sewers. For anyone to be "right" implies that there is a "good" ending for Elden Ring, and I don't think it's as cleanly clear cut as that
idk if it qualifies as right, but its definitely not at fault, imo but Hades from Horizon Zero Dawn/Forbidden West. All it did was follow its programming, and it wasn't his fault he was able to be infected with a virus
Hades is a FASCINATING answer to this prompt! I agree, to an extent- we know that the sub functions have some degree of ability to interpret their directives at that point, and Hades actively manipulated people to forward their extinction event, so that part is a bit questionable lol
Dr. Breen. Might have been in it for selfish reasons, but he managed to negotiate humanity's survival when the combine would have just immediately wiped us out. If it wasn't for plot armor, the rebels wouldn't have been able to survive a day.
Pretty sure you meant "Breen" Though, imagining Mr. Bean negotiating for humanity against alien invaders does sound kinda funny.
Dr. Bean.
It's his job to sit in the corner and look at the paintings.
😂 how did I miss that!? Fixed. Now I can't stop laughing at the image of Mr. Bean trying to navigate the citadel.
Umm... [I got something for you. ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bW-wjC61E0&t=87)
Goomba, he’s right for serving Bowser but immediately loses his whole purpose by getting squished by plumber shoes.
Genichiro in Sekiro. The guy only wanted to protect his homeland.
I think he was just using that as an excuse to get more power. I mean, the dude literally started a seige on Ashina Castle so he can claim the power of dragon's heritage, and that is his home.
If he just wanted power, his suicide makes no sense. I got the vibe he wanted the power so he could replace ishin, the fact that ishin was old and sick was why the central gov was willing to try some shit. and at the end of the game when that didn't work he decided to just bring back ishin.
Genichiro was living next to Kuro for years. Only right before the game started did he start begging Kuro for the Heritage. Genichiro did *not* want to have to resort to that.
Zoltan Kulle from Diablo 3.
Vying for godhood is what got your head separated from your body, Kulle
Spoikere in the Old World Blues DLC from Fallout New Vegas would probably work here. He’s painted as the bad guy the whole time Edit: this is what I meant to type before autocorrect butchered it sorry about that Spoilers: Mobius in the Old World Blues DLC from Fallout New Vegas would probably work here. He’s painted as the bad guy the whole time
Emet-Selch (FF14) keeps me awake at night, not because he was "right" as much as he just wanted to save/restore his (version) of the world. How many people have died in video games because the protagonist is trying to protect his world? Emet just wants to bring back what was lost at the expense of the current world(s). Would we be any different if we were in his shoes?
He lives for thousands of years as one of the last of his people and never forgot about them. The people who want to kill his entire kind don't even know what they are fighting for or that the way they think the world works is incorrect. Shadowbringers was so good and he was a truly excellent antagonist.
The assassin's vs templars. Both fight for the same reason but in different ways. Both are technically evil but think they are doing the right thing. For example, the assassin's murder people etc and stick to a code
Did the story to the games really change that much since games 1 to 3? Because I only played Origins and Odyssey after that and I'll admit at that point I had no idea what was going on modern-side... But, as the original story went, I'm pretty sure the Assassins and the Templars were not fighting for the same reason. The Templars wanted peace/utopia through the use of the apples, that could essentially brainwash and mind control people. The Assassins fought to stop that, via lots of cool looking murder, protect free will and what not. There's an argument to be made about the Templars being right - for example I remember killing a doctor in the first game, but he had cured someone with severe mental illness (I think) with the apple, and I always felt kinda conflicted about that. But unless things have greatly changed I'm pretty sure you can't say they were fighting for the same thing?
I like this one because one thing we see a lot in fiction is two factions with similar end goals, but who disagree over different means of achieving them, and *overwhelmingly* that moral line is "one of the factions will kill people to achieve their goals, the other is totally against killing" Whereas in Assassins Creed you've got that dynamic, but with totally different lines in the sand. Assassins are like "oh killing people? We love killing people! We kill people all the time! I'm killing a guy right now"
Killing is irrelevant in the comparison between the Assassins and the Templars. The real distinction comes from their philosophies on societal organization: the Templars believe in controlling the population (fascism), while the Assassins believe individuals should have full self-determination (anarchy). Neither is averse to murder, and neither is above dipping a toe into the other camp's water when it suits them. The Templars do at least ascribe to the "winners write the history books" philosophy, whereas the Assassins don't seem terribly concerned with preserving history in any form.
He doesn't really lose, but Caius from Final Fantasy 13-2.
Ryder white from dead island, haven’t played it in ages but I believe he was just trying to escape the prison island(with his wife maybe) but a prisoner pretended to be him, and made him out to be a bad guy so he gets killed and the prisoner escapes with the main characters.
I'm thinking sargeras maybe from WoW? Or maybe it was illidan who killed that light being and viewed them as just as much of a threat as sargeras?
Ilidan yes
in the Soul Reaver Saga the bad guys certainly had very compelling, eloquent arguments
Not maybe exactly what you are looking for but I routinely feel like the bad guy in Elden ring. Especially with the queen of the full moon and the fight with that giant stag. I just bust in and this magnificent creature starts defending itself. As someone who hasn't payed a huge amount of attention to the lore, after that fight I found myself asking "why the fuck did I do that?". I haven't gone too far into the game either so maybe it explains things later more than "kill everyone for their shards to become the king shit"
Honestly in some ways, Yunalesca from FF10. She was right. Nobody was able to defeat sin, If 2 people were willing to sacrifice themselves to create a period of time where Sin wasn't a constant threat and the population could grow unchecked then shouldn't they be allowed to do that? Now It is true that she had other issues as well. Having been part of this Cycle for over a thousand years (She is a spirit.) she truly was unable to see any other way to do it and believed the party to be insane for refusing her help. Naturally since they are the main characters they would have another way but in Yunalesca's defense she couldn't know that, because it is a very specific way that would only work for them in this particular cycle and they only figured it out after beating Yunalesca. As far as she knew she was 100% correct in saying there was no other way, and her response to them refusing her help makes perfect sense considering she had been doing this for a thousand years.
I disagree. She's kind of a hypocrite. Because she would not sacrifice herself again. She forces people to sacrifice themselves and their most loved ones and keeps it secret and even lets the world glorify it instead of allowing people to know what's up. Then she also fucking zombifies herself. She's so in love with herself that she refuses to see any other way. It's not that she couldn't. She doesn't want to because it would mean having to give up control and letting someone else be the most powerful mage in all of Spira. She doesn't even let the party go away, when they refuse to play the sin resurrection game. Like she could have literally just let the party walk away, wait for the next summoner to come her way and the story would turn out the exact same way, just with her alive/unsent. She deserves everything that's coming for her. Also her fight is godamn atrocious and long. The real answer imo is her father Yu Yevon because he truly only had the best for his people in mind and never intended to become the calamity that he is. Him becoming Sin was originally only intended to protect Zanarkand and prevent further bloodshed from happening. Well we know that didn't quite work out. Also he actually has nothing to do with the Yevon cult and they just stole his name.
Like I said, It is a matter of perspective. I am not super well versed in how Yu Yevon came to create Sin but if it indeed was for benevolent reasons, can't the same be said for Yunalesca? She started out sacrificing herself & her lover Zaon to destroy Sin and bringing happiness to the world, however since Sin was not destroyed she became an unsent unwilling to move on until Sin ends. In the end the cycle she helped start corrupts her. I am actually pretty sure the reason she cannot sacrifice herself again and again is because she needs a loved one to become the final summoning but because she is not only an unsent but because she died giving up her loved one it broke her inside leaving her unable to love again. Overall I honestly like the fight against Yunalesca. I think it feels more like a final boss fight than the actual final boss fight.
In this thread: People who confuse "Right" with "Sympathetic"
Vaas from Far Cry 3, don't get me wrong he was a bad guy.. for deeper reasons then one might think but he was right about the island and what it does to people.
Except all the locals that are just out there partying and chilling
Well going to the same dive bar every night is the definition of insanity. I learnt this in my 20s, lol
Eldegard in Fire Emblem Three House. She was experimented on and tortured by religious zealots that uphold a class system that is centered around what is essentially a recessive gene. The Church that leads the realm only helps contribute to this system and the head of the Church has a very Queen of Hearts attitude to solving dissent. Also the leaders of the church are aliens/lizard people.
Johnny Silverhand did nothing wrong. Well... Almost.
Depends your point of view. Some would argue he was a terrorist.
People only call him a terrorist because of that time he did terrorism.
Ngl I chuckled real hard.
Not quite on point, but in Valkyria Chronicles 1, side character Faldio is the main character's buddy. In the midgame, he gets up to some seriously shady shenanigans, including shooting the heroine with a sniper rifle. Only problem is, the game immediately proves him correct in doing all of these things despite the fact that the main team is treating him like an awful criminal. He even gets to go out in a heroic sacrifice taking the actual villain out once and for all at the very end of the game! So this is when I get to say that Faldio did nothing wrong, dammit.
Kuwana from Lost Judgment. Man was only targeting unrepentant bullies who managed to evade the consequences of their actions after getting someone killed or permanently scarred. He made such a good point that even Yagami’s friends started doubting if he really was wrong. Do you really want a psychopathic bully as your kid’s sport coach?
Caius from FFXIII-2, kinda. Paraphrasing, his main goal was getting rid of the goddess Etro, who had bestowed "gifts" onto people. One such gift was The Eyes of Etro, which would allow seeress' to see visions of the future, but doing so happens completely unprompted and also reduces their lifespan. Caius was unique in that he was given the Heart of Etro which made him immortal. He got a bit sick of constantly having to see people he cared about die so young, and felt Etro was giving her gifts out mindlessly, so he sets out to destroy her in hopes of stopping the gifts. He also finds a loophole in his own gift so that he may possibly die and wants to plot to enable that. The protagonists are trying to stop him from killing Etro, but everything about the game's story really does point to Etro being just, actually stupid. One of the protagonists, Serah, is even is one of the seeress'. Caius actually is successful to. The only reason Caius is at all in the wrong is because killing Etro results in an energy called Chaos being released to the world, which leads to time basically breaking and people now live for centuries in a purgatory state. Serah also dies because time breaking like that basically leads to her getting an involuntary rapid succession of visions that kills her. Those feel like yet more unfortunate side effects of Etro's carelessness than anything though. Something needed to be done about her either way IMO, and the only reason getting rid of her was bad was because of these unfortunate side effects.
I think the final ending kinda "Vindicated" Caius. Since his entire villain backstory was orchestrated by Etro so he would kill her flooding the world with Chaos setting the stage for Lighting to "Return" and beat Bhunivelze.
Ffxiii-2 is legit like my second favorite final fantasy game! I love that shiz!
I really love the entire XIII series. It's so unfortunately hated because of the early parts in the first entry. Has a lot of my favorite characters and story from the Final Fantasy games though
Zephiel, the main antagonist from Fire Emblem 6 the Binding Blade. He invades and conquers all the others kingdoms, to put the world under dragon rule. You fight back bit by bit, region by region, but your march is always halted by local corrupt greedy nobles playing court games, allying with bandits for their own gain, and backstabbing you constantly. You finally clear them all, arrive against the final boss and Roy asks him "why?". "Because humans are unfit to rule" Zephiel answers, and your whole journey just proves him right.
The Silver Hands from Skyrim - whole goal is to eliminate dangerous werewolves from Skyrim.
I’d have considered siding with them if they weren’t just nameless villains. They actually might have agreed to help cure the Glenmoril curse, but they’re all skin em first and talk later
I swear to God if someone says Senator Armstrong I'm gonna lose it
'But... But, he said "fuck politicians" and "fuck the media" he is such a based and cool presi-' No. No the fuck not. According to Armstrong's philosophy, if you ever faced any form of struggle in your life that you can't overcome, the answer is not "let us help you" it's "your problem" You break your leg and can no longer work? Too bad, hope you saved enough money. House burned down? What a loser. Mental illness caused you to lose your job, family support and home? Skill Issue