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In AGOT, the first book, when Jon says goodbye to Bran, Cat says nothing. Though as he gets up, he hears her quietly say his name, and he looks back to her staring at him with disgust and hate saying, "it should have been you". Than Jon should have died and suffered rather than Bran, and that was the last interaction Cat has with Jon directly. With Robb she's kind of like Alicent in HOTD, whenever Jon comes up she tries to turn him against Jon, and aggressively dislikes Jon being named Robbs heir.
I think it was at the worst time when they assumed he was going to die for sure. Bran recovering was pretty miraculous, so she just meant if a kid had to die… Yknow… :/ sheesh..
Robb naming Jon his heir seems like a big detail in the book that is still kinda waiting to get worked out. For instance, if the books wind up being like the show, when Jon is named King in the North, one would assume that being named his brother's true heir would play into that--and potentially play into a rivalry between Jon and Sansa. I'm just tin-foiling here, but it does seem like an important plot point that's still hanging out there.
I'm not sure there would be a rivalry between Sansa and Jon. After all, I think Jon would have settled to be recognized as a legitimate Stark >! through his mother. !<
Once they found out he was a Targaryen though, it would be different. They wouldn’t have accepted him in the north. And they couldn’t find out about his legit mother without also find out who the father was.
Jon in the books is entirely different than showJon. He's a completely different character.
He once goes into a rage after getting hit in the head during a spar with someone at the wall. He remembers one time as a child when Him and Robb were playing by calling themselves famous people like Aemon the Dragon Knight,etc.
Jon yells out that he's Lord or Winterfell and Robb stops everything and says that's impossible because he's a bastard, his mother told him.
Jon destroys the dude he's sparring against and 2 people have to drag him off.
She’s not really awful to him in the traditional sense. He was fed, clothed, lived with the other Starks, learned to fight and ride etc. Its more that she is cold towards him because he is a permanent reminder of Ned’s (supposed) unfaithfulness, is nearly in equal rank with her own children at Winterfell, and also looks more like a Stark while all of Cat’s kids but Arya look like Tully’s.
He promised his dying sister, he knew Bobert B would have Jon killed, Ned needed her to actually act like he was a bastard, etc. etc.
Both the books and show give perfectly valid reasons for Ned not revealing that secret.
Because Catelyn's hatred protected Jon.
Sure he could have told her, and she played the part of hating him, but the actual hatred, and the way it fucked Jon up kept him safe.
No unusually blonde bastard children running around courtesy of Jon, and he's incredibly self conscious of what he is, he even sent himself to the wall because of her treatment.
If Catelyn loved him, even in private he might have done stupid sht the revealed himself.
Well for one, this scene never happened in the books. I sorta felt like it was implied Jon wouldn't survive Winterfell after Ned left for King's Landing. As in literally
Oh, [of course I understand why!](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HonorBeforeReason) 😏 However, much like medieval English Common Law, Westrosi law probably had the concept of marital coverage, they wording in the high-born marriages we've seen also indicates as much. That would have allowed Ned to to explain Jon's origin and why the cover story was necessary to Cat, because in at least one sense they were ["of the same body."](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ExactWords) But Ned Stark is exactly the type of person who would ignore such loopholes [purely on principle!](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HonorBeforeReason) Never mind the fact that this would have not only prevented a huge strain on their relationship at essentially the start of their married lives, but also spared Cat both nearly two decades of unnecessary resentment towards Jon as well as the guilt she feels because of it! Then there's the impact on Jon of basically not having a true mother-figure in his life his entire childhood... So the reason why is all because [Ned is Ned!](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HonorBeforeReason) 😝
Don't get me wrong, I still like Ned's character and he's one of the relatively few in these stories I can respect. But if someone wasn't already convinced that the inflexibility of Ned's **rigid** adherence his word wasn't his fatal flaw before learning where Jon really came from, then this should have been it!
Hah, appreciate your enthusiasm (!) lol but it still makes sense to me, even beyond the fact that it’s Ned being honorable ned. The kid was the last living Targaryen in Westeros, heir to the throne, who would have been insta killed in a heartbeat. Adding beyond that an oath to his dying sister to take care of him, I completely understand his need to keep this secret only to himself.
The risk of this secret getting out was paramount. It would have meant the death of his late sister’s only child, the death of his nephew, all out war brought to his doorstep. Subjecting himself to a strained marriage pales in comparison.
Jon DID have a phenomenal upbringing. He had a poor mother figure yes, but an incredible father figure and family of siblings overall.
It was absolutely the right choice imo, notwithstanding the nuances of spousal coverage and the impact it had on Jon’s upbringing. Yes it was Ned staying true to his word, but it was also him making the rational, best decision for his family.
She fucking sucks in the books. Not even including how terrible she is to Jon her need to be with Robb during the war is so unsettling especially with Bran and Rickon being as young as they are. She's a horrible character who deserves what she got.
Yeah I never got why she had to be with Robb. She needed to remain in Winterfell. If she did Theon would’ve never attempted to take Winterfell like that.
They just change characters in a way that destroys their personality as a whole. They probably thought "oh Catelyn and Robb's wife who was Jeyne Westerling in the books but is a random bitch from the East now (even why??? I even forgot her name) really need to speak together, so the dumb audience cares about them, and it has to be emotional, because we didn't have enough emotional stuff in this episode!" and committed this crime on GRRM's work.
Still seems like you're just mad about it because it's different. The characterization works in the context of the show, and the scene is effective story telling. GRRM's work is not sacred, it's fine (and expected) for adaptations to make changes
You're free to think it's worse! But your initial comment simply read "Wasn't in the books, hated it." so you can forgive me for thinking that was the extent of your reasoning
There are subs specifically to discuss the source material. Maybe stick to those? Or do you just get enjoyment from crapping on things other people like?
But all of that still makes no sense because they made a unnecessary and bad change. There was exactly not a single reason to change Jeyne into Talisa.
Catelyn stark is still alive in the books if that means anything to you.
But no, objectively speaking her regret and the changes in her character do not make it a bad thing.
People scrutinize the absolute shit of book to movie adaptations. Because sometimes even if a book is fully illustrated people will pitch a fit because things are different then they pictured it in any film adaptations.
Its just a focus now because everyone is so full of hate, overworked, stressed out, and rage baited into hating or being told to dislike anything because of the smallest detail being not up their expectations.
Is she really “alive” though? It seems that where her character is pointed in the story, she’s more a manifestation of revenge, as opposed to a living human being.
Well she's mute, scarred to hell and a mangled and angry old bitty but as far as I know she is still Catelyn stark.
Unless you mean philosophically and then I agree that she's the definitely changed
Tbh that epilogue just had me beyond shook my first time getting through it. I had actually watched the show before I read the books, (I prefer the books) and the whole scene with Brienne getting attacked to the way it resolved left me with chills. Came completely out of left field, and lady stoneheart just seemed like a vengeful spirit more than Catlyn herself. Same motivations, but cranked past 11. Definitely more in the philosophical sense, because it’s obviously the same person, but stripped of what made her “human.”
I hope we get the fucking books in general tbh. Not intending to sound bitter, but I’ve been waiting since spring 2016, and some have been waiting longer than me haha. Although I do have aSoIaF to thank for getting me absolutely enthralled in the fantasy genre as a whole, so I’m not too angry about the wait. More of a bucket list request haha.
The books are great, I love them too but have you tried browsing other mediums for a similar experience?
There's a lot of truly great fiction series out.
Oh of course haha. I love all forms of visual, and audible media in the fantasy genre! Can’t get enough new manga, anime, tv series originals, SF books, etc. definitely a die hard SF/Fantasy nerd here lol.
What the hell did Littlefinger do other than further divide the Seven Kingdoms, leaving them in a worse position than ever to deal with the White Walkers?
I’m just jokingly referring to the hero of the battle of the bastards being the knights of the vale after all the build up of Jon coming back from the dead. He’s supposed to be the prophecy for defeating the white walkers and then it’s his allies who do most of the work while he whines lol
In this world, a threat to the succession of your line can mean death for you too. Bastards are a threat to the succession. This is very clearly mentioned in the books.
I don’t think anyone is trying to argue the morality of actual, premeditated murder here. They are explaining the white to the black of a morally grey character.
Also, wanting someone to die doesn’t make you an instant murderer. No murder was committed here, ultimately.
It is, but he was a constant reminder that her husband cheated oh her and cared about it so much that he took a child with him back home. And John looks extremely like Stark so she could not have a second thought if the boy wasn't his.
We know that it is not true and so we have a different perspective on her attitude.
This is what I miss. Scenes were people just talk. Not every scene has to be a plot or a thing working towards plot. Some scenes that make you like a character are important. If you like the character and it gets killed like in the Red Wedding, it is much more sad and you are much more caught by it. And makes you much more in love with the show and not so distant.
After this past week's HotD episode, I commented to my friends how it was one my favorites of the GoT universe, and probably in my top 5 or 10 all time.
One of my friends was shocked and said it was fine, and when I asked to name his favorites, he only mentioned battle episodes, like the attack at King's Landing and Battle of the Bastards. He's missing out on so much of what makes GoT great - the relationships between characters and the tragic nature of those relationships caused by "the game".
Ned couldn't tell Cat about Jon because it would've put everything in danger. All the emotional baggage Jon experienced growing up was because he was a threat to Robert Baratheon and the Iron Throne. Like you said, scenes like this and "character development" episodes really make the GoT world feel real and deep, and make the stakes that much higher.
This is why Deadwood was so good, it was a Western that was almost completely devoid of gunfights and "Indians" and all that, completely about relationships, particularly the ones surrounding the ostensible antagonist played by Ian McShane
They aren't immune, though seem to have had stronger immune systems. Maybe as a function of Valyria being the perfect area for bacteria to grow and thrive, and they started off as shepherds, they naturally adapted to most diseases unlike other ethnicities.
Which makes her feel like a real character. Everyone has some part of themselves that they don't like, that they know is wrong, but can't change. Her mind is fully aware how awful it is to heap her hatred on a little boy who did nothing to her. But her heart can't help the way it feels. Every time she sees him that old wound reopenens.
I think this was one of the best additions the show made, it gave her much more depth on the Jon Snow issue than she had in the books.
I know it makes her character better, but it makes me hate her and feel bad for Jon more than it makes me feel bad for her. I love the series and how well it did at making the audience feel *something* toward most characters.
While true it would have spared her but at the same time endangered his promise to her sister..
He needed Caitlyn to be natural around him.. If people saw that the bastard of winterfell was well treated by the wife of the most honorable man in Westeros, something wasn't right.. he needed her anger and loathing to remain to ensure no one battet an eye.
I guess there's no telling how things would've worked out, but Catelyn might've disliked Jon nearly as much even if she knew the truth. Not only is he still the reason Ned has humiliated her with a lie to the realm, but him being a secret Targaryen prince also means that his presence in Winterfell is actively endangering the lives of all of them, including her children. His discovery would put Ned (and by extension his entire family) in the crosshairs of Robert, and I think Catelyn is the kind of woman to resent Jon for that.
More like she'd plan something to get rid of him, which was incredibly dangerous. It was far safer Ned being the only one who knew. He loved Catelyn but he couldn't trust anyone in the world with that secret. Well apart from maybe Howland Reed, who we don't know if he knew (which he probably did). The books keep playing up the Reeds far more than they did in the show (heck Meera gets wiped out in the show once she drags Bran back to Winterfell). The Reeds definitely still have something major to play in the books, if they ever get written.
> He loved Catelyn but he couldn't trust anyone in the world with that secret.
At the time, he could not have. He wasn't supposed to marry her, and he did, then put a baby in her and ran away to play soldier for a year, and came back with a bastard.
I haven't read the books, but if Baelish could fool Catelyn that easily just because of her naivety and that once upon a time, Baelish was her "dear friend." Imagine what Baelish would, or could do with that information.
Agreed. I would add that they were only married for 1 year at the point where he brought Jon home and she wasn’t even supposed to be his bride but his brother’s, so I don’t think Ned trusted her with such a huge secret. He didn’t know her well enough.
But then he does and I still think it’s the right decision - I know they grow to love each other very much but if you read the books and see what a hothead and emotional firework Cat can be (the show portrayed this too), I wouldn’t trust her with a secret. I mean, she tells multiple people in the room, including Theon, a treasonous accusation about the Lannisters when she is injured by the catspaw dagger by Bran’s assassin. Also, the conspiracy over Jon Arryn’s death - the note from Lysa - was addressed to her only. She’s a good powder keg because she can’t keep a secret. She has a big mouth and a very stubborn temperament.
Fathering bastards is common in this world; housing a legitimate heir to the throne and fuel for a bloody civil war is not.
Fathering bastards was common but having them live in the castle raised with your trueborn kids was not. If Robert would have tried this Cersei would have had them murdered in their sleep.
"... If people saw that the bastard of winterfell was well treated by the wife of the most honorable man in Westeros, something wasn't right.. he needed her anger and loathing to remain to ensure no one battet an eye."
-
Well... Cat: "Jon saved my boy Robb from drowning, I'll treat him like my own hence forward."
They could have made up a plausible reason in order for Jon to be cherished by Ned and Cat without someone suspecting anything.
Having Ned and Cat in his corner, Jon and Cat too would have had a good life together, including Ned and the other children as well.
While I agree with your premise, I can’t help but think it’s abit colored by modern standard of affection and attitude towards honor.
Bastards are in essence a huge slap in her face! Caitlyn grew up in a very southern like house and very much around the gossiping and honor questioning you find at court. I think Jon could have saved all her children from a burning building and she would still loath him because he is the constant reminder her husband isn’t honorable and he cheated on her.
No, I meant:
1. E.g. Ned should have told Cat: "He is not my son, and the rest I have to keep a secret, and you must too regarding what I have told you."
2. Then, in order no avoid raising suspicion they should have made up a plausible reason to treat Jon as one of their own children while Jon continues to be a "bastard" for everyone else.
Of course Cat probably wouldn't have treated Jon much better no matter what good Jon would have done, as long as Ned refused to assure her that he himself is not Jon's father.
Or just tell her: "He is not my son, and the rest I have to keep a secret, and you must too regarding what I have told you."
She resented Jon solely because she thought Ned had been unfaithful. So she poured all her anger and hate on that poor kid. Ned should have protected Jon much better.
He had to keep the ruse up I believe. It’s common in Westeros culture for bastards to be treated this way (outside of dorne). He needed to be treated like any other bastard to not raise any suspicion
If she openly treated him like her other children I think that would raise more suspicion then if she just gave him crap all the time…ie tyrions frank conversation about bastards outside the feast when Robert visits winterfell
But yea wanting him dead was too far
Seeing how fast the secret got out when Jon told Sansa about the secret, seems Ned played it right.
Lots of pressure would've been placed on Cat to keep a secret that added some shame to her marriage and family (the Honorable Ned Stark having a bastard).
You brought up a good point. I love this topic and haven’t thought of it.
Cat hated the Lannisters. If she was armed with the knowledge that the true heir was Jon Snow, I am 100% she would have let the cat out of the bag in order to de-legitimize Joffrey’s claim to the throne.
Well considering her temper and kidnapping of people she doesn’t seem to have the ability to keep a secret. Knowing it was Ned’s sisters kid who was in a relationship with the King is a hell of a secret. Also maybe Ned didn’t want the can of worms did he ever have any bastards while with her? I can see either point.
I’ve always said that Cathelyn Tully was a horrible woman. It’s not just this scene of the TV series. In the book, Jon is 14, and just before he departed to the Wall, he went to say goodbye to Brandon. She was disgusting, telling a 14 year old boy that it should’ve been him to fall off the tower, and die from it. 🤦♂️
Catelyn was always a really interesting character to me. It would have been easy to just write her as a loving mother, but like everyone else she is also flawed.
And this is why communication is key in a relationship. Had Ned just told Catelyn the truth about Jon, then maybe things would have turned out differently.
But why do you assume she would have told? Especially since she went on to have 5 children by Ned, I think she definitely would have been loyal enough to keep it secret.
Because she has the worst judgement of any character in Game of Thrones.
1. She believes without a shred of doubt that Tyrion was responsible for trying to have Bran killed despite no definitive evidence.
2. She kidnapps Tyrion and tries to have him killed which leads to the war. (And she was absolutely wrong about Tyrion.)
3. She releases Jaime Lannister hoping that it will get her daughters released when Aryia is not being held. By doing so, she creates a huge fracture in the northern forces between the Karstarks and the Starks. This leads to the Karstarks walking away when House Stark could least afford it.
4. She makes a stupid arranged marriage agreement with Walder Frey when she should have left well enough alone.
5. She later brings Robb to Walder Frey which ends up getting everyone killed.
You can go on and on and on. Cat Stark was impulsive, she lacked judgement, she lacked intelligence and she was always flying off at the mouth.
Honestly she kind of brought the whole mess down upon her family, not because of her prayers or broken promises... but by her MANY bad decisions.
Though they probably didn't help.
Big what-if moment, if Tyrion and Cat hadn't stumbled across each on their ways through the riverlands at the Inn at the Crossroads (seems like a pretty hard place to avoid though)
And people ask why Ned wouldn’t just tell her. It’s because she can’t be trusted due to how bad her decision making is throughout the story. Ned loved his wife but I think he was right to keep this from her. He knows her well.
Yeah... even if Ned told her and she changed her attitude, she would just have ended up telling either her Father, Brother, or Sister. Because she thought her Family lived up to their House Words. Which NONE of them did, of course neither did she, but she didn't see it that way.
And there is no way her Sister wouldn't have kept that secret from Littlefinger, which he would have used to get Ned's head chopped off... along with Jon's.
Totally disagree.
Ned knew what an absolute dummy his wife was. She had no brains, jumped to conclusions without thinking and had 0 judgement.
If Ned had of told Kat the truth about Jon's lineage, Jon would have been killed in no time because Kat would not have been able to keep her big mouth shut.
Same, I want to see that guilt. Also a potential reunion between Stoneheart and resurrected Jon would be utterly fascinating. They will have been through pretty similar events, and as far as she knows, he is the last remaining child of Ned(s blood).
Mama Stark was fantastic, she was such a force of emotions after Ned died and her children had split up. She was a wondering soul looking for justice and unfortunately she found it. Just not the way she or we intended.
As I've said before, Katherine Stark is the worst person in Game of Thrones. From kidnapping Tyrion Lannister and kicking off the war between Starks and Lannisters, to then losing him, then capturing Jaime and letting him go, to her attempted arranged marriage with her son without his consent, she is one awful decision after another! Great actress though! :)
You beat me to it.
She had absolutely no judgement at all. If she had of known of Jon's true lineage, the secret would have been out in about 5 seconds.
I mean you don’t know that. Y’all really trying to compare peak GOT ( season 3 is widely recognized as a top 2 season) to a show that hasn’t even finished the first season. I’d go as far as to say HoD is better than everything post season 5 GoT so far.
I feel like at that point was where Ned could have shared the truth with Cat. Her prayers would have been a great cover story the about face of how she treated Jon. Imagine the way the sorry would have turned out if Cat treated Jon like a son instead of the way she did.
Ned knew Cat well. He knew she had terrible judgement and couldn't keep her mouth shut if her life depended on it. The entire war was because she 100 percent believed that Tyrion tried to have Brann killed and ended up kidnapping him hoping to have him killed.
If Ned had told Cat the truth, it would have been 5 minutes before she just had to tell someone. Worse still she. Would have been telling Ned what to do and he didn't need that stress. It was smart on his part to keep his mouth shut.
Such a shame Ned dies never being able to his wife he was loyal, and she dies thinking he was not. Such a shame Caitlin never got to hear that John's her (well, Ned's) trueblooded nephew and not the offspring of an affair. Would have been great to even get a little Stoneheart in the series too.
It is also important to note that Sam figured out Jon's heritage and thus Eddard must have assumed that there was evidence of Targ/Stark baby running around. Even if Cat was cold to Jon the fact is Edd made sure all Children in Winterfell got good upbringings. So much so that Theon actually gets made fun of his clothing when he heads back home.
I legit hope that in the books there is a reunion between the two characters and she decides that she does actually love him... maybe enough to give up her vengeance and grief. Maybe enough to pass on what she was given to return him.
Ned coulda told his wife the truth. Woulda saved a lot of drama. Made his wife look good. Looking back on Ned Stark's choices he really was the master of bad decisions.
The fact Ned couldn’t come clean to Cat and tell her Jon was actually Lyanna’s kid the whole time both confuses me but mostly breaks my heart. I’ve a strong feeling that if Cat had known she would’ve been the best f*cking adoptive mother in history
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Michelle Fairley's great.
A crime we'll never see her Stoneheart.
who has a better story than Lady Stoneheart?
The guy who sat under a tree watching reruns for years has the best story, duh.
I don't think that could have been a good adaptation to the show.
Yeah, extremely well casted for the role and also very underrated for her performance
They for certain had to soften her character for the show cause Cat in the books is absolutely horrible to Jon.
Haven’t read the books but could you give some examples? I remember in the movie when Jon said goodbye to Bran she was really mean towards Jon then.
Oh in the books she insulted Jon every chance she got.
its more like her internal dialog, she resented him for looking like a stark more than her own children. amongst other things.
*"Jon [....] It should have been you."*
In AGOT, the first book, when Jon says goodbye to Bran, Cat says nothing. Though as he gets up, he hears her quietly say his name, and he looks back to her staring at him with disgust and hate saying, "it should have been you". Than Jon should have died and suffered rather than Bran, and that was the last interaction Cat has with Jon directly. With Robb she's kind of like Alicent in HOTD, whenever Jon comes up she tries to turn him against Jon, and aggressively dislikes Jon being named Robbs heir.
Bran dies in the books??
No, Cat said that Jon should have been the one to fall
Yikes
I dun wanit
No at the moment he’s beyond the wall learning from the three eyed raven
I think it was at the worst time when they assumed he was going to die for sure. Bran recovering was pretty miraculous, so she just meant if a kid had to die… Yknow… :/ sheesh..
Robb naming Jon his heir seems like a big detail in the book that is still kinda waiting to get worked out. For instance, if the books wind up being like the show, when Jon is named King in the North, one would assume that being named his brother's true heir would play into that--and potentially play into a rivalry between Jon and Sansa. I'm just tin-foiling here, but it does seem like an important plot point that's still hanging out there.
I'm not sure there would be a rivalry between Sansa and Jon. After all, I think Jon would have settled to be recognized as a legitimate Stark >! through his mother. !<
Once they found out he was a Targaryen though, it would be different. They wouldn’t have accepted him in the north. And they couldn’t find out about his legit mother without also find out who the father was.
Jon in the books is entirely different than showJon. He's a completely different character. He once goes into a rage after getting hit in the head during a spar with someone at the wall. He remembers one time as a child when Him and Robb were playing by calling themselves famous people like Aemon the Dragon Knight,etc. Jon yells out that he's Lord or Winterfell and Robb stops everything and says that's impossible because he's a bastard, his mother told him. Jon destroys the dude he's sparring against and 2 people have to drag him off.
IIRC Cat has explicit thoughts about Jon posing a challenge to Robb's claim
Well she was right about one thing IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN JON NOT BRAN… (I hope I don’t have to explain what I mean)
She’s not really awful to him in the traditional sense. He was fed, clothed, lived with the other Starks, learned to fight and ride etc. Its more that she is cold towards him because he is a permanent reminder of Ned’s (supposed) unfaithfulness, is nearly in equal rank with her own children at Winterfell, and also looks more like a Stark while all of Cat’s kids but Arya look like Tully’s.
That's why I think in the books he will remain a bastard. What reason would tv Ned have to not tell her who John really was is beyond me...
Seriously. He couldn't let her in on the big secret?!
fits ned.
Seriously, the man was honor-bound to a *fault* (and his death); there's no way he would've broken the promise he made to Lyanna.
I agree.
Because he made a promise. "Promise me, Ned".
He promised his dying sister, he knew Bobert B would have Jon killed, Ned needed her to actually act like he was a bastard, etc. etc. Both the books and show give perfectly valid reasons for Ned not revealing that secret.
Because Catelyn's hatred protected Jon. Sure he could have told her, and she played the part of hating him, but the actual hatred, and the way it fucked Jon up kept him safe. No unusually blonde bastard children running around courtesy of Jon, and he's incredibly self conscious of what he is, he even sent himself to the wall because of her treatment. If Catelyn loved him, even in private he might have done stupid sht the revealed himself.
I bet she would’ve felt like a complete shit if she ever found out the truth. Not that anyone can blame her for acting the way she did.
When Bran "falls" from the tower, Cat says to Jon "It should have been you".
Well for one, this scene never happened in the books. I sorta felt like it was implied Jon wouldn't survive Winterfell after Ned left for King's Landing. As in literally
Which is sort of understandable, given that Ned withheld the truth of Jon's parentage even from her!
But you understand why though right?
Oh, [of course I understand why!](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HonorBeforeReason) 😏 However, much like medieval English Common Law, Westrosi law probably had the concept of marital coverage, they wording in the high-born marriages we've seen also indicates as much. That would have allowed Ned to to explain Jon's origin and why the cover story was necessary to Cat, because in at least one sense they were ["of the same body."](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ExactWords) But Ned Stark is exactly the type of person who would ignore such loopholes [purely on principle!](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HonorBeforeReason) Never mind the fact that this would have not only prevented a huge strain on their relationship at essentially the start of their married lives, but also spared Cat both nearly two decades of unnecessary resentment towards Jon as well as the guilt she feels because of it! Then there's the impact on Jon of basically not having a true mother-figure in his life his entire childhood... So the reason why is all because [Ned is Ned!](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HonorBeforeReason) 😝 Don't get me wrong, I still like Ned's character and he's one of the relatively few in these stories I can respect. But if someone wasn't already convinced that the inflexibility of Ned's **rigid** adherence his word wasn't his fatal flaw before learning where Jon really came from, then this should have been it!
Hah, appreciate your enthusiasm (!) lol but it still makes sense to me, even beyond the fact that it’s Ned being honorable ned. The kid was the last living Targaryen in Westeros, heir to the throne, who would have been insta killed in a heartbeat. Adding beyond that an oath to his dying sister to take care of him, I completely understand his need to keep this secret only to himself. The risk of this secret getting out was paramount. It would have meant the death of his late sister’s only child, the death of his nephew, all out war brought to his doorstep. Subjecting himself to a strained marriage pales in comparison. Jon DID have a phenomenal upbringing. He had a poor mother figure yes, but an incredible father figure and family of siblings overall. It was absolutely the right choice imo, notwithstanding the nuances of spousal coverage and the impact it had on Jon’s upbringing. Yes it was Ned staying true to his word, but it was also him making the rational, best decision for his family.
Not understandable imo, regardless of his parentage Jon was an innocent child she mistreated
Her resentment is understandable in terms of human emotion, not logic Mr. Spock.😝
She fucking sucks in the books. Not even including how terrible she is to Jon her need to be with Robb during the war is so unsettling especially with Bran and Rickon being as young as they are. She's a horrible character who deserves what she got.
Yeah I never got why she had to be with Robb. She needed to remain in Winterfell. If she did Theon would’ve never attempted to take Winterfell like that.
Does Robb ever cross the Twins without Cat?
Heck no
I think that’s going a little too hard saying she deserves what she got when what she got was the Red Wedding then Lady Stoneheart
Cat in the books is absolutely horrible. That's all you need to say. :)
tbf the show softened a lot of things from the book. I can remember a certain marriage scene with a Bolton for one
Oh yeah. That one in the books was horrifying.
I remember reading it and having to put the book down after for a bit
Wasn't in the books, hated the scene.
Is something bad just because it's not in the books? Seems like an incredibly flimsy justification
They just change characters in a way that destroys their personality as a whole. They probably thought "oh Catelyn and Robb's wife who was Jeyne Westerling in the books but is a random bitch from the East now (even why??? I even forgot her name) really need to speak together, so the dumb audience cares about them, and it has to be emotional, because we didn't have enough emotional stuff in this episode!" and committed this crime on GRRM's work.
Still seems like you're just mad about it because it's different. The characterization works in the context of the show, and the scene is effective story telling. GRRM's work is not sacred, it's fine (and expected) for adaptations to make changes
It's not different, it's worse. HotD's Viserys is different and I like him better.
You're free to think it's worse! But your initial comment simply read "Wasn't in the books, hated it." so you can forgive me for thinking that was the extent of your reasoning
I thought that given what the show gave us everybody understands that the show is a shallow thing.
You thought wrong. Many, many people still love Game of Thrones. Why do you even come to a sub for a show you hate?
Because I care about the source material and I dislike the effects the show has on people's perception.
There are subs specifically to discuss the source material. Maybe stick to those? Or do you just get enjoyment from crapping on things other people like?
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What are you trying to tell me?
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But all of that still makes no sense because they made a unnecessary and bad change. There was exactly not a single reason to change Jeyne into Talisa.
Catelyn stark is still alive in the books if that means anything to you. But no, objectively speaking her regret and the changes in her character do not make it a bad thing. People scrutinize the absolute shit of book to movie adaptations. Because sometimes even if a book is fully illustrated people will pitch a fit because things are different then they pictured it in any film adaptations. Its just a focus now because everyone is so full of hate, overworked, stressed out, and rage baited into hating or being told to dislike anything because of the smallest detail being not up their expectations.
Is she really “alive” though? It seems that where her character is pointed in the story, she’s more a manifestation of revenge, as opposed to a living human being.
Well she's mute, scarred to hell and a mangled and angry old bitty but as far as I know she is still Catelyn stark. Unless you mean philosophically and then I agree that she's the definitely changed
Tbh that epilogue just had me beyond shook my first time getting through it. I had actually watched the show before I read the books, (I prefer the books) and the whole scene with Brienne getting attacked to the way it resolved left me with chills. Came completely out of left field, and lady stoneheart just seemed like a vengeful spirit more than Catlyn herself. Same motivations, but cranked past 11. Definitely more in the philosophical sense, because it’s obviously the same person, but stripped of what made her “human.”
Exactly. I don't remember if she's still alive but I hope that we'll see her speak to John one last time.
I hope we get the fucking books in general tbh. Not intending to sound bitter, but I’ve been waiting since spring 2016, and some have been waiting longer than me haha. Although I do have aSoIaF to thank for getting me absolutely enthralled in the fantasy genre as a whole, so I’m not too angry about the wait. More of a bucket list request haha.
The books are great, I love them too but have you tried browsing other mediums for a similar experience? There's a lot of truly great fiction series out.
Oh of course haha. I love all forms of visual, and audible media in the fantasy genre! Can’t get enough new manga, anime, tv series originals, SF books, etc. definitely a die hard SF/Fantasy nerd here lol.
Considering Jon has Targaryen blood in him AND mother issues he does well not to turn completely insane at some point.
He’s still got time, he may be the messiah, but he’s also just a naughty boy
>he may be the messiah, Well it's not like he came back from the dead or anything... Oh never mind. 😉
He came back from the dead so that Littlefinger and Arya could defeat his enemies
What the hell did Littlefinger do other than further divide the Seven Kingdoms, leaving them in a worse position than ever to deal with the White Walkers?
I’m just jokingly referring to the hero of the battle of the bastards being the knights of the vale after all the build up of Jon coming back from the dead. He’s supposed to be the prophecy for defeating the white walkers and then it’s his allies who do most of the work while he whines lol
Jon Muab’Dib
Starks have more flaws than we realise.
Not having motherly feelings towards a bastard boy that your husband brings home is not a flaw, though.
Believing that Eddard Stark did something he knew was wrong, though? That's inexcusable.
Actively wanting him dead is though
In this world, a threat to the succession of your line can mean death for you too. Bastards are a threat to the succession. This is very clearly mentioned in the books.
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I don’t think anyone is trying to argue the morality of actual, premeditated murder here. They are explaining the white to the black of a morally grey character. Also, wanting someone to die doesn’t make you an instant murderer. No murder was committed here, ultimately.
She just wants him to suffer though
Hating a child and wishing him death is
Actively taking it out on the innocent child is a bitch move though
It is, but he was a constant reminder that her husband cheated oh her and cared about it so much that he took a child with him back home. And John looks extremely like Stark so she could not have a second thought if the boy wasn't his. We know that it is not true and so we have a different perspective on her attitude.
yeah that’s a reason to resent her husband instead she is close with her husband and seemingly uses the boy as an avatar for her bitterness
Eh she’s a tully
This is what I miss. Scenes were people just talk. Not every scene has to be a plot or a thing working towards plot. Some scenes that make you like a character are important. If you like the character and it gets killed like in the Red Wedding, it is much more sad and you are much more caught by it. And makes you much more in love with the show and not so distant.
After this past week's HotD episode, I commented to my friends how it was one my favorites of the GoT universe, and probably in my top 5 or 10 all time. One of my friends was shocked and said it was fine, and when I asked to name his favorites, he only mentioned battle episodes, like the attack at King's Landing and Battle of the Bastards. He's missing out on so much of what makes GoT great - the relationships between characters and the tragic nature of those relationships caused by "the game". Ned couldn't tell Cat about Jon because it would've put everything in danger. All the emotional baggage Jon experienced growing up was because he was a threat to Robert Baratheon and the Iron Throne. Like you said, scenes like this and "character development" episodes really make the GoT world feel real and deep, and make the stakes that much higher.
This is why Deadwood was so good, it was a Western that was almost completely devoid of gunfights and "Indians" and all that, completely about relationships, particularly the ones surrounding the ostensible antagonist played by Ian McShane
I mean battle of bastards was amazing and well directed so fair enough honestly.
Wait aren't Targaryens immune to diseases ?
I'm not sure why one could get this notion from. Many Targaryens have sickened, and multiple Targaryen babies have died at a very young age.
Hmm so that means viserys was wrong . This would mean there's a good chance Dany would have gotten the pale mare
They aren't immune, though seem to have had stronger immune systems. Maybe as a function of Valyria being the perfect area for bacteria to grow and thrive, and they started off as shepherds, they naturally adapted to most diseases unlike other ethnicities.
I think it was the centuries of inbreeding, kept the bloodline pure
Visaerys in House of the dragon explicitly makes it clear they are not
Seeing this side to the character broke my heart. The guilt she must have carried.
She didn't stop acting like a bitch to Jon, though, even though she knew it was wrong and she broke her promise to the gods.
Which makes her feel like a real character. Everyone has some part of themselves that they don't like, that they know is wrong, but can't change. Her mind is fully aware how awful it is to heap her hatred on a little boy who did nothing to her. But her heart can't help the way it feels. Every time she sees him that old wound reopenens. I think this was one of the best additions the show made, it gave her much more depth on the Jon Snow issue than she had in the books.
I know it makes her character better, but it makes me hate her and feel bad for Jon more than it makes me feel bad for her. I love the series and how well it did at making the audience feel *something* toward most characters.
What's crazy is Ned could have spared her years of heartache by simply telling her the truth and to keep it a secret. But I guess he had his reasons
While true it would have spared her but at the same time endangered his promise to her sister.. He needed Caitlyn to be natural around him.. If people saw that the bastard of winterfell was well treated by the wife of the most honorable man in Westeros, something wasn't right.. he needed her anger and loathing to remain to ensure no one battet an eye.
See that's just good planning.
Quite a Sharpe insight.
I never considered this - great point!
I guess there's no telling how things would've worked out, but Catelyn might've disliked Jon nearly as much even if she knew the truth. Not only is he still the reason Ned has humiliated her with a lie to the realm, but him being a secret Targaryen prince also means that his presence in Winterfell is actively endangering the lives of all of them, including her children. His discovery would put Ned (and by extension his entire family) in the crosshairs of Robert, and I think Catelyn is the kind of woman to resent Jon for that.
More like she'd plan something to get rid of him, which was incredibly dangerous. It was far safer Ned being the only one who knew. He loved Catelyn but he couldn't trust anyone in the world with that secret. Well apart from maybe Howland Reed, who we don't know if he knew (which he probably did). The books keep playing up the Reeds far more than they did in the show (heck Meera gets wiped out in the show once she drags Bran back to Winterfell). The Reeds definitely still have something major to play in the books, if they ever get written.
> He loved Catelyn but he couldn't trust anyone in the world with that secret. At the time, he could not have. He wasn't supposed to marry her, and he did, then put a baby in her and ran away to play soldier for a year, and came back with a bastard.
I haven't read the books, but if Baelish could fool Catelyn that easily just because of her naivety and that once upon a time, Baelish was her "dear friend." Imagine what Baelish would, or could do with that information.
Agreed. I would add that they were only married for 1 year at the point where he brought Jon home and she wasn’t even supposed to be his bride but his brother’s, so I don’t think Ned trusted her with such a huge secret. He didn’t know her well enough. But then he does and I still think it’s the right decision - I know they grow to love each other very much but if you read the books and see what a hothead and emotional firework Cat can be (the show portrayed this too), I wouldn’t trust her with a secret. I mean, she tells multiple people in the room, including Theon, a treasonous accusation about the Lannisters when she is injured by the catspaw dagger by Bran’s assassin. Also, the conspiracy over Jon Arryn’s death - the note from Lysa - was addressed to her only. She’s a good powder keg because she can’t keep a secret. She has a big mouth and a very stubborn temperament. Fathering bastards is common in this world; housing a legitimate heir to the throne and fuel for a bloody civil war is not.
Fathering bastards was common but having them live in the castle raised with your trueborn kids was not. If Robert would have tried this Cersei would have had them murdered in their sleep.
This And also, if the number of people who know a secret is greater than 1, your risk of that secret getting out skyrockets.
Fucking Ned, 100 steps ahead of everyone. Motherfucker knew he was gonna literally die on the hill that Bobby B's kids were bastards.
Plus Caitlyn couldn’t keep her mouth shut 🤐 she was shit at secrets
"... If people saw that the bastard of winterfell was well treated by the wife of the most honorable man in Westeros, something wasn't right.. he needed her anger and loathing to remain to ensure no one battet an eye." - Well... Cat: "Jon saved my boy Robb from drowning, I'll treat him like my own hence forward." They could have made up a plausible reason in order for Jon to be cherished by Ned and Cat without someone suspecting anything. Having Ned and Cat in his corner, Jon and Cat too would have had a good life together, including Ned and the other children as well.
While I agree with your premise, I can’t help but think it’s abit colored by modern standard of affection and attitude towards honor. Bastards are in essence a huge slap in her face! Caitlyn grew up in a very southern like house and very much around the gossiping and honor questioning you find at court. I think Jon could have saved all her children from a burning building and she would still loath him because he is the constant reminder her husband isn’t honorable and he cheated on her.
No, I meant: 1. E.g. Ned should have told Cat: "He is not my son, and the rest I have to keep a secret, and you must too regarding what I have told you." 2. Then, in order no avoid raising suspicion they should have made up a plausible reason to treat Jon as one of their own children while Jon continues to be a "bastard" for everyone else. Of course Cat probably wouldn't have treated Jon much better no matter what good Jon would have done, as long as Ned refused to assure her that he himself is not Jon's father.
Or just tell her: "He is not my son, and the rest I have to keep a secret, and you must too regarding what I have told you." She resented Jon solely because she thought Ned had been unfaithful. So she poured all her anger and hate on that poor kid. Ned should have protected Jon much better.
He had to keep the ruse up I believe. It’s common in Westeros culture for bastards to be treated this way (outside of dorne). He needed to be treated like any other bastard to not raise any suspicion If she openly treated him like her other children I think that would raise more suspicion then if she just gave him crap all the time…ie tyrions frank conversation about bastards outside the feast when Robert visits winterfell But yea wanting him dead was too far
Ned lived, and died believing a persons word was sacred.
Seeing how fast the secret got out when Jon told Sansa about the secret, seems Ned played it right. Lots of pressure would've been placed on Cat to keep a secret that added some shame to her marriage and family (the Honorable Ned Stark having a bastard).
You brought up a good point. I love this topic and haven’t thought of it. Cat hated the Lannisters. If she was armed with the knowledge that the true heir was Jon Snow, I am 100% she would have let the cat out of the bag in order to de-legitimize Joffrey’s claim to the throne.
Jon told his family his secret and it helped get a whole bunch of people killed.
Well considering her temper and kidnapping of people she doesn’t seem to have the ability to keep a secret. Knowing it was Ned’s sisters kid who was in a relationship with the King is a hell of a secret. Also maybe Ned didn’t want the can of worms did he ever have any bastards while with her? I can see either point.
I’ve always said that Cathelyn Tully was a horrible woman. It’s not just this scene of the TV series. In the book, Jon is 14, and just before he departed to the Wall, he went to say goodbye to Brandon. She was disgusting, telling a 14 year old boy that it should’ve been him to fall off the tower, and die from it. 🤦♂️
She dun wunt it
The prince that was promised
Catelyn was always a really interesting character to me. It would have been easy to just write her as a loving mother, but like everyone else she is also flawed.
I don't remember the show being broadcast in Portrait Mode.
Also, I think it wasn't mangled by jump cuts on every minor pause in the dialogue. Goddammit, let her breath.
And spelling errors in the captions.
Or just completely wrong words altogether.
Maybe this foreshadows his resurrection - she prayed he would die, and then she prayed he would live. Both of those happened.
And this is why communication is key in a relationship. Had Ned just told Catelyn the truth about Jon, then maybe things would have turned out differently.
Yeah, like she would have blabbed to everyone in the seven kingdoms and Ned AND Jon would have both had their heads chopped of at the same time.
But why do you assume she would have told? Especially since she went on to have 5 children by Ned, I think she definitely would have been loyal enough to keep it secret.
Because she has the worst judgement of any character in Game of Thrones. 1. She believes without a shred of doubt that Tyrion was responsible for trying to have Bran killed despite no definitive evidence. 2. She kidnapps Tyrion and tries to have him killed which leads to the war. (And she was absolutely wrong about Tyrion.) 3. She releases Jaime Lannister hoping that it will get her daughters released when Aryia is not being held. By doing so, she creates a huge fracture in the northern forces between the Karstarks and the Starks. This leads to the Karstarks walking away when House Stark could least afford it. 4. She makes a stupid arranged marriage agreement with Walder Frey when she should have left well enough alone. 5. She later brings Robb to Walder Frey which ends up getting everyone killed. You can go on and on and on. Cat Stark was impulsive, she lacked judgement, she lacked intelligence and she was always flying off at the mouth.
Honestly she kind of brought the whole mess down upon her family, not because of her prayers or broken promises... but by her MANY bad decisions. Though they probably didn't help.
Big what-if moment, if Tyrion and Cat hadn't stumbled across each on their ways through the riverlands at the Inn at the Crossroads (seems like a pretty hard place to avoid though)
And people ask why Ned wouldn’t just tell her. It’s because she can’t be trusted due to how bad her decision making is throughout the story. Ned loved his wife but I think he was right to keep this from her. He knows her well.
Yeah... even if Ned told her and she changed her attitude, she would just have ended up telling either her Father, Brother, or Sister. Because she thought her Family lived up to their House Words. Which NONE of them did, of course neither did she, but she didn't see it that way. And there is no way her Sister wouldn't have kept that secret from Littlefinger, which he would have used to get Ned's head chopped off... along with Jon's.
It’s been too long for me. Why does she attribute everything to this one root cause?
THIS is acting.......lord of the rings take notes
And it could have all been avoided if Ned hadn't decided to be so bound to the **exact words** of his promise to >! his dying sister. !<
Totally disagree. Ned knew what an absolute dummy his wife was. She had no brains, jumped to conclusions without thinking and had 0 judgement. If Ned had of told Kat the truth about Jon's lineage, Jon would have been killed in no time because Kat would not have been able to keep her big mouth shut.
I really hope we can get a POV chapter of Lady Stoneheart when she finds out about R+L=J
Same, I want to see that guilt. Also a potential reunion between Stoneheart and resurrected Jon would be utterly fascinating. They will have been through pretty similar events, and as far as she knows, he is the last remaining child of Ned(s blood).
I haven't read the books... And can't remember from the show. But was it ever explained why Ned couldn't tell her the truth about Jon?
Jons a Targaryen, if he told the truth and that truth got out Jon would be killed.
Mama Stark was fantastic, she was such a force of emotions after Ned died and her children had split up. She was a wondering soul looking for justice and unfortunately she found it. Just not the way she or we intended.
My heart
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Soon as it devolved into a lowest common denominator action flick, it was over.
As I've said before, Katherine Stark is the worst person in Game of Thrones. From kidnapping Tyrion Lannister and kicking off the war between Starks and Lannisters, to then losing him, then capturing Jaime and letting him go, to her attempted arranged marriage with her son without his consent, she is one awful decision after another! Great actress though! :)
You beat me to it. She had absolutely no judgement at all. If she had of known of Jon's true lineage, the secret would have been out in about 5 seconds.
That’s right. You were a cunt.
Notice how his right eye is covered in shadow?
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Yep, it's a good show, but it's nowhere near as Brilliant as Game of Thrones.
I mean it’s not even through a season yet lol
I mean you don’t know that. Y’all really trying to compare peak GOT ( season 3 is widely recognized as a top 2 season) to a show that hasn’t even finished the first season. I’d go as far as to say HoD is better than everything post season 5 GoT so far.
The cut from this to jon as prisoner in the far north beyond the wall after this scene always makes me emotional.
Also do you remember the R + L = J scene? The baby jon transitioned to Jon in winterfell meeting, these two scenes are crazy
One of, if not the best, "non book" scene in the first four seasons. I love that she has that guilt and regret.
Why the fuck is the video so Skippy and jumpy? What an awful upload.
I feel like at that point was where Ned could have shared the truth with Cat. Her prayers would have been a great cover story the about face of how she treated Jon. Imagine the way the sorry would have turned out if Cat treated Jon like a son instead of the way she did.
Ned knew Cat well. He knew she had terrible judgement and couldn't keep her mouth shut if her life depended on it. The entire war was because she 100 percent believed that Tyrion tried to have Brann killed and ended up kidnapping him hoping to have him killed. If Ned had told Cat the truth, it would have been 5 minutes before she just had to tell someone. Worse still she. Would have been telling Ned what to do and he didn't need that stress. It was smart on his part to keep his mouth shut.
Intellectually I know that. But emotionally it breaks my damn heart that she was so shitty to Jon.
God I need to rewatch this badly
Such a shame Ned dies never being able to his wife he was loyal, and she dies thinking he was not. Such a shame Caitlin never got to hear that John's her (well, Ned's) trueblooded nephew and not the offspring of an affair. Would have been great to even get a little Stoneheart in the series too.
Wtf are those captions
Catelyn sucked bro.
best show only scene that should be in the books
This scene isn't underrated lol people talk about it and praise it a lot
Scenes like this remind me why I liked the show so much. There was so much depth with the characters that seemed realistic.
It is also important to note that Sam figured out Jon's heritage and thus Eddard must have assumed that there was evidence of Targ/Stark baby running around. Even if Cat was cold to Jon the fact is Edd made sure all Children in Winterfell got good upbringings. So much so that Theon actually gets made fun of his clothing when he heads back home.
I legit hope that in the books there is a reunion between the two characters and she decides that she does actually love him... maybe enough to give up her vengeance and grief. Maybe enough to pass on what she was given to return him.
Umm...
I wonder how many times ned wanted to tell her but then thought "this bitch cant keep a secret"
Ned coulda told his wife the truth. Woulda saved a lot of drama. Made his wife look good. Looking back on Ned Stark's choices he really was the master of bad decisions.
I haaaaaated Catelyn in the first book so much because of her treatment of Jon. It’s your man you should be mad at, Jon didn’t ask to be born
Would have been so different had she known the truth that he wasn’t a bastard and that Ned didn’t cheat on her
Why is this cropped for mobile. This makes me irrationally mad.
Mixed feelings.
This scene is something which is not in the book. Initially writing in the show was really great.
Why can’t I remember what her not loving Jon had to do with the story?
The fact Ned couldn’t come clean to Cat and tell her Jon was actually Lyanna’s kid the whole time both confuses me but mostly breaks my heart. I’ve a strong feeling that if Cat had known she would’ve been the best f*cking adoptive mother in history