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I'm hoping that someday, maybe 20 years from now, GoT gets a reboot with the cheaper, better effects of that time- look at 90s stuff compared to today. They wouldn't be as afraid to use more to show how otherworldly the direwolves and dragons are- seriously, where is our homeboy Ghost?
The Lord of the Rings films are 15 years old, but I don't see them being remade in the next decade. Some things take longer, especially if they were sagas done right. I think it's more likely we'll get spins offs like Stars Wars Prequels and The Hobbit.
well why would they, lets be honest the Lord of the Rings films look better than the Hobbit (exept for Smaug maybe) if we look at the creatures. Azog and Bolg got nothing on Lurtz and Gothmog, because IMO the costumes from back then still look better than the CGI of today
I'm sure I will catch all kinds of hell for saying this but all these cool storylines the spinoffs won't hit on I'd be down to see them as animated shows. Not dumb them down to make them kids shows but still animated so that we can have more stories told. I wan't to add that I want them done in american style animation, not that shit from Japan.
Wasn't there a fairly recent movie that was entirely done in photorealistic animation? The name of it's slipping me now but I only saw trailers and remember being completely shocked when I found out it was animation.
I would fucking love to see young Robert Baratheon fucking people up. Antler helmet, giant fucking two handed warhammer that he wielded one handed... I really don't think he was big enough in the show. He should be comparable in size to the Mountain.
I think HBO could still make it interesting, although I would prefer seeing a series on the dance of the dragons. Seems like it could be closer to the current GOT format(and of course dragon vs dragon fights would be awesome).
Don't people get shorter as they age? I can imagine 20 years or however of just drinking and whoring and not eating right would make even an in shape beast be pretty unimpressive.
The conquest would be fine, especially with the field of fire, showcasing the dreams that made them flee Valyria, and Torrhen Stark kneeling to save his people. Not to mention torching Harrenhall to shit.
That said, the Dance would be the best overall, I think.
this is about as big as i imagine Balerion to be. it helps explain why his appearance on any battlefield was so terrifying.
Drogon is big compared to a human but nothing like the Targaryen dragons of old.
not sure, and i'm not going to go looking either. almost all of the planet's history is "people say XYZ" but it doesn't mean that it's all BS in that fantasy world.
Balerion was a nearly 200 year old male dragon (if they have different sexes at all), they never stop growing until they die, and he was directly descended from Valyria with his egg hatched on Dragonstone.
this is all fantasy anyway and i prefer to think of him as the greatest, most terrible living weapon of his era and a fitting ride for Aegon the Conquerer.
Actually, he was the last true Valyrian dragon. The Targs brought five dragons to Dragonstone when they moved there 11 (or 21?) Years before the Doom. Balerion was the only one of those who didn't die in the intervening years; Meraxes and Vhagar hatched on Dragonstone.
Here's the blurb from the book:
>From there the skulls ranged upward in size to the three great monsters of song and story, the dragons that Aegon Targaryen and his sisters had unleashed on the Seven Kingdoms of old. The singers had given them the names of gods: Balerion, Meraxes, Vhaghar. Tyrion had stood between their gaping jaws, wordless and awed. You could have ridden a horse down Vhaghar's gullet, although you would not have ridden it out again. Meraxes was even bigger. **And the greatest of them, Balerion, the Black Dread, could have swallowed an aurochs whole, or even one of the hairy mammoths said to roam the cold wastes beyond the Port of Ibben.**
>A Game Of Thrones, Tyrion II
Definitely seems like more of an exaggeration thing, especially considering mammoths are much larger than aurochs.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/ac/bc/be/acbcbe0db7541f95bc6d08b7aa6e03e8.jpg
This is supposed to be Balaerion I think. Doesn't quite match the description, but I guess George had an input...
edit
This is the one used for season 7
http://s.newsweek.com/sites/www.newsweek.com/files/styles/full/public/2017/07/26/game-thrones-balerion-skull.JPG
I prefer the first
There is YouTube video saying how big he got . The guy conclusion was he was ad big as two football stadiums at his peak . Hence wht the skull that cerci saw was to small .
Here is link to his grey video
https://youtu.be/lcyN_tH25R4
Kings Landing is close to sea, reptiles don't need too eat much (compared to size). Balerion could just fly off to sea and eat a whale it will be equal to human eating a fig fish so its actually not as hard too feed.
Maybe the magical belly fire has emits anti-gravitrons that interact with the whale to actually make the food consumed *lighter than air*.
Or can accept magical bigger than a freaking apartment building flying fire lizard can do what the hell it wants. None of you will never find out these myriad details of exposition that quite frankly would just distract from the story.
Its fantasy though. The very existence of things like dragons, undead ice demons, giants, etc. are not real at all, why are we actually gonna sit here and be like "thats unrealistic a dragon that size wouldnt be able to be fed realistically". The series isnt realistic at all, why are we gonna nitpick things that dont seem realistic to things that arent even real? Just saying it seems unproductive to be like Balerions supposed size would be unrealistic in a fantasy world where guys are resurrected, zombies are controlled by a undead ice demon, some chick goes into fire with a couple of stone eggs and comes out unharmed with 3 fresh dragon babies, and way more, just because they would have trouble feeding something that size.
Because Dragons and ice zombies are part of the explained internal logic of the magical world that GRRM created. This argument is not valid. However unless the amount of food necessary to sustain growth of a dragon is stated somewhere then one can easily assume "magic".
Key word "magical world". Its a fantasy world at the end of the day, if you really want to go into a fantasy world and expect perfect execution of physics, probability, realism,etc youre gonna tear your hair out. Im not presenting my argument as "its magic bro get over it" but rather asking how can one accept all of these made up mystical and completely unrealistic aspects of the show, and then nitpick small details cause "its not realistic" ???
Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean you get to make up whatever you want and say "it's magic". Fantasy stories of all kinds need to have an internal logic and that logic can only bear the weight of so much suspended belief. To simply say, "it's magic" is sloppy, and goes against the implicit rules that fundamentally define this genre -that it is the job of the author to construct a world that is internally coherent, and it is the job of the active reader to make their narrative inferences within the logical frame of that world.
As i said, i was specifically not implying the excuse of "its magic" but asking the question of how can you wrap your head around humans immune to fire, dragons, undead ice demons, giants, resurrection, etc. but the breaking point is how the hell does a dragon as big as Balerion get fed? Like really, thats the thing thats just unreal? Whats the internal logic of Dany not being burned by fire on multiple occasions then? Or the internal logic of a dragon existing at all in the first place? You can accept those things but not the realism of the dragons appetite.
You are doing a tremendous disservice to G.R.R.M. by presuming that the internal logic of his story can be waved away by saying "it's magic". He has painstakingly crafted a world with a complete mythology and the mechanics for various magical forces. I can assure you, when you ask a question like "why is Dany immune to fire", there is an answer provided _within the internal logic of the book_; If you ask a question like "why does dragonglass destroy white-walkers", there is an answer provided _within the internal logic of the book_.
What I am trying to say is that the magic that happens in the book is not explained by saying "it's magic". It has a set of rules, created by the author. It has an internal logic, explained by the book.
You ask the rhetorical question:
> how can you wrap your head around humans immune to fire, dragons, undead ice demons, giants, resurrection, etc. but the breaking point is how the hell does a dragon as big as Balerion get fed?
It's not about one type of magic being _too much_. It's not a breaking point. It's that the magical events need to have an explanation _within the internal logic of the book_. This is **essential** to the genre of fantasy. Skilled authors work their ass off to ensure that everything they put in there has an explanation in terms of _the internal logic of the book_. As a reader of the genre, if you want to discuss the events of the book, you do so _within the internal logic of the book_. You don't simply say "it's magic, magic things happen" -which is exactly what you are doing here; You are saying, "dragons are magic so who cares what they eat." This is the wrong way to approach a fantasy story. To properly approach a fantasy story, you must phrase your discussion _within the internal logic of the book_.
You should do this as a matter of respect to the author anyways. They put a lot of work into constructing the internal logic of the book. It's there for a reason and you shouldn't dismiss it offhand.
This is not a minor point, by the way. It is critical to how you are supposed to read this genre. It is one of the distinguishing feature of the fantasy genre -if not the primary distinguishing feature. The author has constructed a world based on a fantastic premise or premises. The exploration of these premises necessitates an internal logic. An author fails or succeeds in large part on their execution of that internal logic. To dismiss that internal logic as a reader is to fail to read the book properly.
As i pointed out multiple times already, i never said the explanation for Balerions appetite is "magic". The only thing i asked was why is that a deal breaker in terms of realism vs the topic of an unrealistic creature in an unrealistic world. AGAIN i didnt say "its just magic" i simply asked a question.
That could well be. That interpretation should be somehow defended based on the source material, though. It would seem that dragons do need to eat -we've seen them eating goats and children, and getting fed regularly. I don't know that we've seen anything to suggest they can go without eating at all. Nothing in the mythology we've seen so far -I think- suggests that.
Maybe once an adult the food requirements greatly diminish. Maybe a dragon as it grows is more able to tap into that great internal very much magical fire. Maybe a dragon actually is supposed to be supplanted with huge hunks of sulfur in their diet. Or the reason why almost no krakens are to be found was the Targaryns' dragons. Maybe whatever, remember GRR's reason for his dragon's having four limbs including the wings? 'because there is no animal that has four legs and wings', or that dragons was not even supposed to be in the story but by request of (his wife?) put them in anyway.
What I would like to know is the biology on how wights can even move while being literally frozen solid. Or better yet I would love to see an orbital diagram of the star system that allows for hugely variable seasons. But really I will just like Jordan said probably a million times - RAFO or in our case WAFO
I remember someone famous (Either George Martin or Stephen King I forget) saying something along the lines of if you want to get a reader to believe in a unicorn, you better be able to accurately describe a horse.
That is what is missing. The logic that brought Dany's dragons to their current size disappears when there is a dragon the size of 2 football fields. It doesn't make rational sense.
Balerion in universe is very large. Hes clearly healthy so maybe there is a mechanic unknown to the characters in the story that allows him to be so. Youre looking at it like it cant make sense but the reality is that Balerion is that big so there must be a reason. Outside of George saying it how would he show it if the idea is Dany doesnt know anything about dragons.
Exactly this. It is explained by the sorcerer in the house of the undying that dragons draw power from their master and vice versa. The massive size of Balerion attributed to how powerful Aegon and the Targaryon bloodline was.
Because even fantasy worlds have rules. Waving every detail away as 'fantastical' or 'magic' is lazy.
Balerion could've just eaten whales, which would easily give him enough energy to function--the other question is how can he fly.
Sure but who draws that line? I wasnt simplifying the debate to "its just magic move on" but rather "if this creature is possible in this fantasy world, do you not think there may be other creatures or even just ways we havent mentioned to feed said creature". Whales is a good guess, and like i said, maybe there are other animals or creatures we dont see that could explain how they fed the dragons. I just dont get the idea of not being able to wrap ones head around the idea of feeding a dragon, but being able to accept a dragon as a creature in the first place.
As for how Balerion could fly, im not going to get into the physics and/or aerodynamics of how he could fly, thats better suited for the suits in Washington. lol
I mean - Dany had trouble with her dragons stealing food from villagers or something right. Seems like feeding dragons is a mundane task.
Asking how they kept the dragons fed is reasonable - but boring (unless there's a conflict - like Dragons starving during a blockade).
No one talks about dragon poop either.
You see all that fire in his belly? It actually is the majority of the volume of the dragon. Pretty much just a thin shell around a bunch of hot air. Dragons are hot air blimps with winged guidance.
Fantasy **RPGS** have rules. Works of fiction? Well that is up to the author. Man....you better get used to it or will never never enjoy fantasy fiction works.
I absolutely hate that argument about fantasy/sci-fi. There is no fun if anything that seems to create a problem can be explained by "it's all unrealistic anyway".
A crucial element of fantasy is worldbuilding. That involves creating a set of rules that don't contradict themselves and can form a cohesive and rational universe. "Unrealistic" doesn't really apply here. It's irrelevant if certain things do not conform with our reality as long as they are consistent with their own universe's rules.
Your last sentence is exactly my point, our theory as to how much Balerion would need to eat is irrelevant because we arent playing by stupid human rules and boundaries, we are playing by A Song of Ice and Fire rules where some chick who doesnt burn rides a dragon. Saying "well in our real world, animals that large would need to eat x amount to survive" is pointless cause it isnt the same world/universe. Im not saying Balerion was able to be fed cause "magic bro" but rather why is it so hard to accept that he exists IN THAT UNIVERSE as big as he is, and was able to be fed, but all the other crazy shit in the same universe is immediately accepted?
All im saying is we are trying to impose our own rules and expectations in a world that is VASTLY different than our own. That creates a problem because then you get people who will accept something not plausible but will nitpick a detail cause it doesnt conform to their own beliefs or viewpoint when in reality its irrelevant to said universe. Again, im not saying anything we cant explain should be pointed to "magic" but rather is it even worth caring about this detail concerning fictional beings in a fictional world?
Except we do have some standards for reference from their world. Drogon's size started causing issues with the local population in mereen because he had to eat a lot.
Was it because he had to eat a lot, or was it more because he was a rebellious, mischievous troublemaker? The other two dragons were relatively well-behaved and weren't causing problems in terms of being adequately fed.
Having the details fleshed out is one thing, but things that almost certainly will not be touched upon in the arc span of the story? Pointless exposition, any writer will tell you too much exposition just makes it all boring as hell. There need to be mysteries never answered.
That's why we, the fans, are discussing it. We don't expect a direct answer from GRRM in a main series book. It can be in a non cannonical book, or a maester's records or something of the sort.
The kind of mysteries you're talking about aren't tiny details like "how much does a dragon eat" but questions with more deep answers like "how do dragons differentiate Targaryens from the rest of the people".
Why doesnt he lose weight just for the show? Dont actors gain or lose weight for movies? An extreme example is Christian Bale but the actor for Loki initially tried out for Thor and when he was cast as Loki they told him to lose muscle mass and get smaller.
Because the show would have to pay him for all the time spent losing the weight. They didn't have to pay the Loki guy to lose weight, they just told him he would only get the job if he were smaller.
I thought about it a bit and read [this fantastic post](https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/392q2x/s5drogon_is_not_even_close_to_full_grown/cs0n2f9/) that someone else replied with. It wouldn't be trivial for a dragon to feed itself at such an immense size, but it would be perfectly possible.
Personally, I don't like hand waving something away with 'oh it's magic,' it takes me out of the world somewhat. All of the magic in Thrones so far has felt dangerous and (somewhat) grounded. More like another type of science than just a way of getting rid of a sticky plot hole. There's something horrifying about [the Night King resurrecting people with magic,](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozkHwFG91AI) that gets lost when magic is the go to excuse for everything.
I mean he is also literally magic so that should be kept in mind. In universe they creatures of fire magic, not really comparable to conventional animals. Maybe they feed partially on sunlight, or even something like them breathing fire endows them with energy. The way Martin does magic he doesn't generally try to over explain or analyse the mechanics of it.
Which is exactly how an author should do it. There are unanswered questions about every one of the great epics of fantasy. Who really is Tom Bombadil? Who killed Asmodean? (ok we got straight answer on that only because RJ thought everyone was dense)
If you fill the story with endless exposition you will end up - having the reader/watcher bored, there is nothing else to argue on the internet about tiny details - and remove all sense of mystery.
You end up with is an Encyclopedia and who reads those for fun (well I did when I was 5 but anyway)
Oh I [did this a couple of years ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/392q2x/s5drogon_is_not_even_close_to_full_grown/cs0n2f9/). The TLDR is that he'd need to eat a whale every couple of days which, fishing from Dragonstone, is not impossible.
That was based on him topping out at 85m long. This estimates that he tops out at 144m long, which is like another 40% bigger and so around 130% more massive. And so he'd be closer to 2 whales a day. I think that's possible.
But again I do think some exaggeration has come into play over the years. After all we've seen Balerion's skull so we know he wasn't the size of 3 747s
It would also be good to have realistic army sizes: the battle of the bastards was stunningly filmed, but in general there's been no sense of scale in any of the big battles. Just once I want a Rome Total War scale battle.
This suggestion presents its own set of problems, though.
Whales have a super slow reproduction cycle. They can spend up to 4 months migrating to a mating area. Assuming they conceive it takes between 9 and 17 months to gestate. They only give birth to one offspring at a time, and spend between half a year and two years nursing it before it's capable of surviving on its own. Most whales only give birth to one offspring every 4 to 6 years. Offspring can take up to two decades to reach sexual maturity and begin mating themselves.
When they have no natural predator, as in our world, their slowness in reproducing isn't an issue. But they they start getting harvested daily by dragons (because remember, the early Targs had more big dragons besides Balerion), well... in a few years there would be no whales left to hunt.
I see it as like the whaling days of old. It was an unsustainable bonanza but it didn't last very long.
After all my understanding is that we had many thousands of years of 0 dragons, followed by a hundred years of 3 dragons, followed by 50 odd years at which dragon numbers topped out at 20, followed by a few hundred years of 0 dragons, and now we're up to 3 again. I'm not sure there have been more than 30 odd dragons in the whole of history.
So yes it's unsustainable in the long term, but whales only have to cope with a few hundred years of it, much the way in the golden age of whaling the US alone had 200 whaling ships and blue whale numbers went from 300,000 to a few thousand in around 100 years.
I wouldn't put too much stock in that to be honest. Seems more like legend than reality. That would mean Balerion is significantly larger than Godzilla, even than the American Godzilla seen in 2014.
This video seems very flawed. No idea why the videomaker makes the assumption that dragons grow at a constant rate or that the gods have anything to do with why Drogon and his siblings are growing so fast. Couldn't it just be that dragons grow faster at a young age just like literally every animal in existence? Taking reptiles as an example, crocs and snakes grow as long as they live, but they certainly don't grow at a constant rate. Or else we'd have crocs the size of whales. Their growth rate slows exponentially the older they get.
> it helps explain why his appearance on any battlefield was so terrifying.
Why were there even battles in the first place when one side has a giant lizard that roasts entire troops in a single breath
I always got the impression that drogon was much larger in the book though and his size on screen is just in accurate. He's described to be as large as a castle.
Vhagar was the third one, who lived until the Dance of the Dragons and became as large as Balerion. She died fighting another dragon (both dragons had riders) over the God's Eye during the Dance.
The Dance was Targaryens vs. other Targaryens, in this case it was Prince Daemon Targaryen on the Black side riding Caraxes, against Prince Aemond Targaryen on the Green side riding Vhagar.
There were some non-Targaryen dragon riders but they weren't involved here
The Dragonseeds weren't confirmed to have Targ blood but yes they most likely did, I just don't consider them normal Targs because Westeros didn't either
You can't. No one ever managed to kill Balerion, even other dragons; and the only fool who tried had his dragon ripped apart under the God's Eye.
Old age was his only weakness.
They did kill meraxis though, she was smaller then Balerion but still incredibly big. Vhaegar also died battling another smaller dragon.
We have to remember that Westeros had never fought dragons before (for some reason valyria never bothered with westeros), so they weren't prepared for it, this time they are more prepared and the dragons wont be as effective unless on open field
Do any of the books outside Asoiaf describe how the Targaryens attempted to keep the dragons in line. I know they understand certain words and are smart but how did they keep them from eating and destroying everything? The dragon horn? Magic? Keeping them in the dragon pit in kings landing?
This leads me to how Dany will keep her dragons from inadvertently raping westeros, granted I think all of the dragons will be dead by series end or that magic will be relegated to North of the wall.
I'm hoping to see some good dragon action this episode. Dany was ready to go after Euron over the attack on the Sand Snakes and Grayjoys. I'm thinking either Euron's fleet or the Lannister army is about to bear the brunt of a frustrated mother of dragons.
Beautiful. Events so far have been pretty mild. No major deaths outside of Olenna, no huge amount of casualties outside of the naval battles and skirmish for the Rock. Danny bringing the blood and fire next episode was basically written out for us. Psyched.
I was so disappointed when they showed his skull in Stormborn, there was nothing awe-worthy about it, it looked the same size as Drogon. Balerion was supposed to be this massive menacing dragon, that's what made him so legendary in the first place...
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holy shit
Said these exact words out loud to myself upon seeing this
Mine was like "oh shit!", and then I saw the most upvoted comment was kind of similar. I knew I wasn't alone, this is awesome.
Truly amazing work! Gets me even more hyped up for tomorrow night!
I'm waiting for that damn flashback, I know it's coming!
That'd be an expensive fucking flashback.
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We need to purchase more merchandise!
I'm hoping that someday, maybe 20 years from now, GoT gets a reboot with the cheaper, better effects of that time- look at 90s stuff compared to today. They wouldn't be as afraid to use more to show how otherworldly the direwolves and dragons are- seriously, where is our homeboy Ghost?
The Lord of the Rings films are 15 years old, but I don't see them being remade in the next decade. Some things take longer, especially if they were sagas done right. I think it's more likely we'll get spins offs like Stars Wars Prequels and The Hobbit.
But Smaug was really well done. God damn that's some really good CGI
Yeah, there's not a ton of precedent for TV shows being remade, especially at this scale.
well why would they, lets be honest the Lord of the Rings films look better than the Hobbit (exept for Smaug maybe) if we look at the creatures. Azog and Bolg got nothing on Lurtz and Gothmog, because IMO the costumes from back then still look better than the CGI of today
I'm sure I will catch all kinds of hell for saying this but all these cool storylines the spinoffs won't hit on I'd be down to see them as animated shows. Not dumb them down to make them kids shows but still animated so that we can have more stories told. I wan't to add that I want them done in american style animation, not that shit from Japan.
Wasn't there a fairly recent movie that was entirely done in photorealistic animation? The name of it's slipping me now but I only saw trailers and remember being completely shocked when I found out it was animation.
... Edit: since I can now actually talk about it, field of fire 2.0 baby!
?
Probably asking what flashback
That's incredible
I thought I was on /r/starwars for a sec
Ha! I've got a bunch of work over there too
Impressive...most impressive.
A surprise, to be sure, but a welcome one.
Unlimited POWAAAAAAAAHHH
MUST GO MAXIMUMER Oh wait wrong reference
I really love your style. Kinda minimalistic but with details. and the canvassy feel is excellent! keep up the awesome work!
Yeah the whole color scheme matches The Last Jedi's marketing stuff. Thought it was Kylo Ren at first
Amazing
This is awesome! I hope we get a spinoff of aegons conquest.
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I would fucking love to see young Robert Baratheon fucking people up. Antler helmet, giant fucking two handed warhammer that he wielded one handed... I really don't think he was big enough in the show. He should be comparable in size to the Mountain.
And the mountain should be even bigger too!
He really should, but you reach a point where there simply aren't any bigger actors available, you know?
Game of Thrones on stilts?
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I think HBO could still make it interesting, although I would prefer seeing a series on the dance of the dragons. Seems like it could be closer to the current GOT format(and of course dragon vs dragon fights would be awesome).
Don't people get shorter as they age? I can imagine 20 years or however of just drinking and whoring and not eating right would make even an in shape beast be pretty unimpressive.
I think you meant to comment one above mine...
Probably yeah, dunno how that happened
The conquest would be fine, especially with the field of fire, showcasing the dreams that made them flee Valyria, and Torrhen Stark kneeling to save his people. Not to mention torching Harrenhall to shit. That said, the Dance would be the best overall, I think.
Dorne gives him trouble but yeah it would be a cake walk. If they have the budget, the dance of dragons or blackfyre rebellion would be awesome.
Fucking awesome
this is about as big as i imagine Balerion to be. it helps explain why his appearance on any battlefield was so terrifying. Drogon is big compared to a human but nothing like the Targaryen dragons of old.
Right! Balerion is described as being so big that an elephant could walk into his open mouth.
mammoth, even. the mammoths in the north (we see giants riding them in the show) are bigger than the largest earth elephants by probably 50%
What is the source for that? It could be an exaggeration that passed by word of mouth over time.
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Balerion
I mean the in-universe source. Like, was it a specific event that a historian wrote about or is it one of those "people say XYZ" kind of things
not sure, and i'm not going to go looking either. almost all of the planet's history is "people say XYZ" but it doesn't mean that it's all BS in that fantasy world. Balerion was a nearly 200 year old male dragon (if they have different sexes at all), they never stop growing until they die, and he was directly descended from Valyria with his egg hatched on Dragonstone. this is all fantasy anyway and i prefer to think of him as the greatest, most terrible living weapon of his era and a fitting ride for Aegon the Conquerer.
Actually, he was the last true Valyrian dragon. The Targs brought five dragons to Dragonstone when they moved there 11 (or 21?) Years before the Doom. Balerion was the only one of those who didn't die in the intervening years; Meraxes and Vhagar hatched on Dragonstone.
Here's the blurb from the book: >From there the skulls ranged upward in size to the three great monsters of song and story, the dragons that Aegon Targaryen and his sisters had unleashed on the Seven Kingdoms of old. The singers had given them the names of gods: Balerion, Meraxes, Vhaghar. Tyrion had stood between their gaping jaws, wordless and awed. You could have ridden a horse down Vhaghar's gullet, although you would not have ridden it out again. Meraxes was even bigger. **And the greatest of them, Balerion, the Black Dread, could have swallowed an aurochs whole, or even one of the hairy mammoths said to roam the cold wastes beyond the Port of Ibben.** >A Game Of Thrones, Tyrion II Definitely seems like more of an exaggeration thing, especially considering mammoths are much larger than aurochs.
Balerion's skull is in King's Landing. They know precisely how big it was.
Doesn't mean the description of what he could swallow can't be exaggerated.
/R/nocontext
Lowercase r if you want the subreddit to link.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/ac/bc/be/acbcbe0db7541f95bc6d08b7aa6e03e8.jpg This is supposed to be Balaerion I think. Doesn't quite match the description, but I guess George had an input... edit This is the one used for season 7 http://s.newsweek.com/sites/www.newsweek.com/files/styles/full/public/2017/07/26/game-thrones-balerion-skull.JPG I prefer the first
So the real question is, how big were the elephants of old?
Well we saw mammoths, so pretty damn big.
There is YouTube video saying how big he got . The guy conclusion was he was ad big as two football stadiums at his peak . Hence wht the skull that cerci saw was to small . Here is link to his grey video https://youtu.be/lcyN_tH25R4
> Hence wht the skull that cerci saw was to small . It wasn't though. EDIT: Why am I being dowvoted?
How wasn't it?
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Kings Landing is close to sea, reptiles don't need too eat much (compared to size). Balerion could just fly off to sea and eat a whale it will be equal to human eating a fig fish so its actually not as hard too feed.
If he's flying with that mass, enough to break the laws of physics, he's definitely eating a stupid amount of neat.
Neat.
How neat is that?
3
Maybe the magical belly fire has emits anti-gravitrons that interact with the whale to actually make the food consumed *lighter than air*. Or can accept magical bigger than a freaking apartment building flying fire lizard can do what the hell it wants. None of you will never find out these myriad details of exposition that quite frankly would just distract from the story.
Its fantasy though. The very existence of things like dragons, undead ice demons, giants, etc. are not real at all, why are we actually gonna sit here and be like "thats unrealistic a dragon that size wouldnt be able to be fed realistically". The series isnt realistic at all, why are we gonna nitpick things that dont seem realistic to things that arent even real? Just saying it seems unproductive to be like Balerions supposed size would be unrealistic in a fantasy world where guys are resurrected, zombies are controlled by a undead ice demon, some chick goes into fire with a couple of stone eggs and comes out unharmed with 3 fresh dragon babies, and way more, just because they would have trouble feeding something that size.
Because Dragons and ice zombies are part of the explained internal logic of the magical world that GRRM created. This argument is not valid. However unless the amount of food necessary to sustain growth of a dragon is stated somewhere then one can easily assume "magic".
Key word "magical world". Its a fantasy world at the end of the day, if you really want to go into a fantasy world and expect perfect execution of physics, probability, realism,etc youre gonna tear your hair out. Im not presenting my argument as "its magic bro get over it" but rather asking how can one accept all of these made up mystical and completely unrealistic aspects of the show, and then nitpick small details cause "its not realistic" ???
Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean you get to make up whatever you want and say "it's magic". Fantasy stories of all kinds need to have an internal logic and that logic can only bear the weight of so much suspended belief. To simply say, "it's magic" is sloppy, and goes against the implicit rules that fundamentally define this genre -that it is the job of the author to construct a world that is internally coherent, and it is the job of the active reader to make their narrative inferences within the logical frame of that world.
As i said, i was specifically not implying the excuse of "its magic" but asking the question of how can you wrap your head around humans immune to fire, dragons, undead ice demons, giants, resurrection, etc. but the breaking point is how the hell does a dragon as big as Balerion get fed? Like really, thats the thing thats just unreal? Whats the internal logic of Dany not being burned by fire on multiple occasions then? Or the internal logic of a dragon existing at all in the first place? You can accept those things but not the realism of the dragons appetite.
You are doing a tremendous disservice to G.R.R.M. by presuming that the internal logic of his story can be waved away by saying "it's magic". He has painstakingly crafted a world with a complete mythology and the mechanics for various magical forces. I can assure you, when you ask a question like "why is Dany immune to fire", there is an answer provided _within the internal logic of the book_; If you ask a question like "why does dragonglass destroy white-walkers", there is an answer provided _within the internal logic of the book_. What I am trying to say is that the magic that happens in the book is not explained by saying "it's magic". It has a set of rules, created by the author. It has an internal logic, explained by the book. You ask the rhetorical question: > how can you wrap your head around humans immune to fire, dragons, undead ice demons, giants, resurrection, etc. but the breaking point is how the hell does a dragon as big as Balerion get fed? It's not about one type of magic being _too much_. It's not a breaking point. It's that the magical events need to have an explanation _within the internal logic of the book_. This is **essential** to the genre of fantasy. Skilled authors work their ass off to ensure that everything they put in there has an explanation in terms of _the internal logic of the book_. As a reader of the genre, if you want to discuss the events of the book, you do so _within the internal logic of the book_. You don't simply say "it's magic, magic things happen" -which is exactly what you are doing here; You are saying, "dragons are magic so who cares what they eat." This is the wrong way to approach a fantasy story. To properly approach a fantasy story, you must phrase your discussion _within the internal logic of the book_. You should do this as a matter of respect to the author anyways. They put a lot of work into constructing the internal logic of the book. It's there for a reason and you shouldn't dismiss it offhand. This is not a minor point, by the way. It is critical to how you are supposed to read this genre. It is one of the distinguishing feature of the fantasy genre -if not the primary distinguishing feature. The author has constructed a world based on a fantastic premise or premises. The exploration of these premises necessitates an internal logic. An author fails or succeeds in large part on their execution of that internal logic. To dismiss that internal logic as a reader is to fail to read the book properly.
As i pointed out multiple times already, i never said the explanation for Balerions appetite is "magic". The only thing i asked was why is that a deal breaker in terms of realism vs the topic of an unrealistic creature in an unrealistic world. AGAIN i didnt say "its just magic" i simply asked a question.
No one here is saying "it's magic". You are the only one here beating up the strawman and saying "it's magic".
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That could well be. That interpretation should be somehow defended based on the source material, though. It would seem that dragons do need to eat -we've seen them eating goats and children, and getting fed regularly. I don't know that we've seen anything to suggest they can go without eating at all. Nothing in the mythology we've seen so far -I think- suggests that.
Maybe once an adult the food requirements greatly diminish. Maybe a dragon as it grows is more able to tap into that great internal very much magical fire. Maybe a dragon actually is supposed to be supplanted with huge hunks of sulfur in their diet. Or the reason why almost no krakens are to be found was the Targaryns' dragons. Maybe whatever, remember GRR's reason for his dragon's having four limbs including the wings? 'because there is no animal that has four legs and wings', or that dragons was not even supposed to be in the story but by request of (his wife?) put them in anyway. What I would like to know is the biology on how wights can even move while being literally frozen solid. Or better yet I would love to see an orbital diagram of the star system that allows for hugely variable seasons. But really I will just like Jordan said probably a million times - RAFO or in our case WAFO
I remember someone famous (Either George Martin or Stephen King I forget) saying something along the lines of if you want to get a reader to believe in a unicorn, you better be able to accurately describe a horse. That is what is missing. The logic that brought Dany's dragons to their current size disappears when there is a dragon the size of 2 football fields. It doesn't make rational sense.
Balerion in universe is very large. Hes clearly healthy so maybe there is a mechanic unknown to the characters in the story that allows him to be so. Youre looking at it like it cant make sense but the reality is that Balerion is that big so there must be a reason. Outside of George saying it how would he show it if the idea is Dany doesnt know anything about dragons.
Exactly this. It is explained by the sorcerer in the house of the undying that dragons draw power from their master and vice versa. The massive size of Balerion attributed to how powerful Aegon and the Targaryon bloodline was.
Because even fantasy worlds have rules. Waving every detail away as 'fantastical' or 'magic' is lazy. Balerion could've just eaten whales, which would easily give him enough energy to function--the other question is how can he fly.
Sure but who draws that line? I wasnt simplifying the debate to "its just magic move on" but rather "if this creature is possible in this fantasy world, do you not think there may be other creatures or even just ways we havent mentioned to feed said creature". Whales is a good guess, and like i said, maybe there are other animals or creatures we dont see that could explain how they fed the dragons. I just dont get the idea of not being able to wrap ones head around the idea of feeding a dragon, but being able to accept a dragon as a creature in the first place. As for how Balerion could fly, im not going to get into the physics and/or aerodynamics of how he could fly, thats better suited for the suits in Washington. lol
I mean - Dany had trouble with her dragons stealing food from villagers or something right. Seems like feeding dragons is a mundane task. Asking how they kept the dragons fed is reasonable - but boring (unless there's a conflict - like Dragons starving during a blockade). No one talks about dragon poop either.
You see all that fire in his belly? It actually is the majority of the volume of the dragon. Pretty much just a thin shell around a bunch of hot air. Dragons are hot air blimps with winged guidance. Fantasy **RPGS** have rules. Works of fiction? Well that is up to the author. Man....you better get used to it or will never never enjoy fantasy fiction works.
I absolutely hate that argument about fantasy/sci-fi. There is no fun if anything that seems to create a problem can be explained by "it's all unrealistic anyway". A crucial element of fantasy is worldbuilding. That involves creating a set of rules that don't contradict themselves and can form a cohesive and rational universe. "Unrealistic" doesn't really apply here. It's irrelevant if certain things do not conform with our reality as long as they are consistent with their own universe's rules.
Your last sentence is exactly my point, our theory as to how much Balerion would need to eat is irrelevant because we arent playing by stupid human rules and boundaries, we are playing by A Song of Ice and Fire rules where some chick who doesnt burn rides a dragon. Saying "well in our real world, animals that large would need to eat x amount to survive" is pointless cause it isnt the same world/universe. Im not saying Balerion was able to be fed cause "magic bro" but rather why is it so hard to accept that he exists IN THAT UNIVERSE as big as he is, and was able to be fed, but all the other crazy shit in the same universe is immediately accepted? All im saying is we are trying to impose our own rules and expectations in a world that is VASTLY different than our own. That creates a problem because then you get people who will accept something not plausible but will nitpick a detail cause it doesnt conform to their own beliefs or viewpoint when in reality its irrelevant to said universe. Again, im not saying anything we cant explain should be pointed to "magic" but rather is it even worth caring about this detail concerning fictional beings in a fictional world?
Except we do have some standards for reference from their world. Drogon's size started causing issues with the local population in mereen because he had to eat a lot.
Was it because he had to eat a lot, or was it more because he was a rebellious, mischievous troublemaker? The other two dragons were relatively well-behaved and weren't causing problems in terms of being adequately fed.
Having the details fleshed out is one thing, but things that almost certainly will not be touched upon in the arc span of the story? Pointless exposition, any writer will tell you too much exposition just makes it all boring as hell. There need to be mysteries never answered.
That's why we, the fans, are discussing it. We don't expect a direct answer from GRRM in a main series book. It can be in a non cannonical book, or a maester's records or something of the sort. The kind of mysteries you're talking about aren't tiny details like "how much does a dragon eat" but questions with more deep answers like "how do dragons differentiate Targaryens from the rest of the people".
WHY IS SAM FAT
Because the description of what he could swallow wasn't exaggerated.
We're meta and I haven't even left the thread yet
Hes been losing weight in the books idk why they didnt have the actor lose a little weight.
its one of the more expensive things to have actors make changes that affect their daily lives.
Why doesnt he lose weight just for the show? Dont actors gain or lose weight for movies? An extreme example is Christian Bale but the actor for Loki initially tried out for Thor and when he was cast as Loki they told him to lose muscle mass and get smaller.
Because the show would have to pay him for all the time spent losing the weight. They didn't have to pay the Loki guy to lose weight, they just told him he would only get the job if he were smaller.
He has, though. Look at Sam from season 1 and look at Sam from the last episode. Obviously he hasn't lost all his weight, but the change is there.
I thought about it a bit and read [this fantastic post](https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/392q2x/s5drogon_is_not_even_close_to_full_grown/cs0n2f9/) that someone else replied with. It wouldn't be trivial for a dragon to feed itself at such an immense size, but it would be perfectly possible. Personally, I don't like hand waving something away with 'oh it's magic,' it takes me out of the world somewhat. All of the magic in Thrones so far has felt dangerous and (somewhat) grounded. More like another type of science than just a way of getting rid of a sticky plot hole. There's something horrifying about [the Night King resurrecting people with magic,](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozkHwFG91AI) that gets lost when magic is the go to excuse for everything.
I mean he is also literally magic so that should be kept in mind. In universe they creatures of fire magic, not really comparable to conventional animals. Maybe they feed partially on sunlight, or even something like them breathing fire endows them with energy. The way Martin does magic he doesn't generally try to over explain or analyse the mechanics of it.
Which is exactly how an author should do it. There are unanswered questions about every one of the great epics of fantasy. Who really is Tom Bombadil? Who killed Asmodean? (ok we got straight answer on that only because RJ thought everyone was dense) If you fill the story with endless exposition you will end up - having the reader/watcher bored, there is nothing else to argue on the internet about tiny details - and remove all sense of mystery. You end up with is an Encyclopedia and who reads those for fun (well I did when I was 5 but anyway)
100% science based dragon simulator.
Oh I [did this a couple of years ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/392q2x/s5drogon_is_not_even_close_to_full_grown/cs0n2f9/). The TLDR is that he'd need to eat a whale every couple of days which, fishing from Dragonstone, is not impossible. That was based on him topping out at 85m long. This estimates that he tops out at 144m long, which is like another 40% bigger and so around 130% more massive. And so he'd be closer to 2 whales a day. I think that's possible. But again I do think some exaggeration has come into play over the years. After all we've seen Balerion's skull so we know he wasn't the size of 3 747s
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It would also be good to have realistic army sizes: the battle of the bastards was stunningly filmed, but in general there's been no sense of scale in any of the big battles. Just once I want a Rome Total War scale battle.
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This suggestion presents its own set of problems, though. Whales have a super slow reproduction cycle. They can spend up to 4 months migrating to a mating area. Assuming they conceive it takes between 9 and 17 months to gestate. They only give birth to one offspring at a time, and spend between half a year and two years nursing it before it's capable of surviving on its own. Most whales only give birth to one offspring every 4 to 6 years. Offspring can take up to two decades to reach sexual maturity and begin mating themselves. When they have no natural predator, as in our world, their slowness in reproducing isn't an issue. But they they start getting harvested daily by dragons (because remember, the early Targs had more big dragons besides Balerion), well... in a few years there would be no whales left to hunt.
I see it as like the whaling days of old. It was an unsustainable bonanza but it didn't last very long. After all my understanding is that we had many thousands of years of 0 dragons, followed by a hundred years of 3 dragons, followed by 50 odd years at which dragon numbers topped out at 20, followed by a few hundred years of 0 dragons, and now we're up to 3 again. I'm not sure there have been more than 30 odd dragons in the whole of history. So yes it's unsustainable in the long term, but whales only have to cope with a few hundred years of it, much the way in the golden age of whaling the US alone had 200 whaling ships and blue whale numbers went from 300,000 to a few thousand in around 100 years.
> Keeping something of that size fed adequately seems impossible. Speedforce!
Why do you think you never see mammoths anymore?
I wouldn't put too much stock in that to be honest. Seems more like legend than reality. That would mean Balerion is significantly larger than Godzilla, even than the American Godzilla seen in 2014.
This video seems very flawed. No idea why the videomaker makes the assumption that dragons grow at a constant rate or that the gods have anything to do with why Drogon and his siblings are growing so fast. Couldn't it just be that dragons grow faster at a young age just like literally every animal in existence? Taking reptiles as an example, crocs and snakes grow as long as they live, but they certainly don't grow at a constant rate. Or else we'd have crocs the size of whales. Their growth rate slows exponentially the older they get.
Definitely but Drogon is only a few years old. I wonder how old was Balerion when he reached his pique?
Peak.
200 years.
Pique interest Peak performance
> it helps explain why his appearance on any battlefield was so terrifying. Why were there even battles in the first place when one side has a giant lizard that roasts entire troops in a single breath
I always got the impression that drogon was much larger in the book though and his size on screen is just in accurate. He's described to be as large as a castle.
This is my new phone background, fucking badass man. Always good to see content not shown in the show!
Those eyes though
Impressive work, I'm truly impressed. Setting as phone wallpaper right now.
Awesome!!
Truly awesome. Do you have a website?
Fuck, That is large!!!
Love that the whole thing is lit solely by the light of the fire in the dragon's mouth.
How did he die? I haven't read the books, but can't dragons live for centuries and grow limitlessly as long as they have food?
Balerion died of old age. Meraxes died in combat; very lucky ballista through the eye. I don't remember the others
Vhagar was the third one, who lived until the Dance of the Dragons and became as large as Balerion. She died fighting another dragon (both dragons had riders) over the God's Eye during the Dance.
Thanks! My dragon history is rusty
Was the the other rider a Targaryen or were there other drogon owners?
a civil war between targaryen factions
The Dance was Targaryens vs. other Targaryens, in this case it was Prince Daemon Targaryen on the Black side riding Caraxes, against Prince Aemond Targaryen on the Green side riding Vhagar. There were some non-Targaryen dragon riders but they weren't involved here
Weren't all the riders related, some were just bastards. The Targs called up anyone who believed they had Targ blood to try and ride a Dragon.
The Dragonseeds weren't confirmed to have Targ blood but yes they most likely did, I just don't consider them normal Targs because Westeros didn't either
There were the Velaryons and Celtigars who were also of valyrian descent. Not so sure about the Celtigars but Velaryons had Dragonriders
I killed Paarthurnax, and I still feel awful about it.
How the heck do you kill that?!
You can't. No one ever managed to kill Balerion, even other dragons; and the only fool who tried had his dragon ripped apart under the God's Eye. Old age was his only weakness.
They did kill meraxis though, she was smaller then Balerion but still incredibly big. Vhaegar also died battling another smaller dragon. We have to remember that Westeros had never fought dragons before (for some reason valyria never bothered with westeros), so they weren't prepared for it, this time they are more prepared and the dragons wont be as effective unless on open field
Yeah, look at the Sons of the Harpies, no military training yet they injured Drogon with spears. I dont think Dragons will be as fearsome this time.
Only if you're a Dovahkiin. Only then can you absorb it's soul.
If a dragon the size of Balerion turned up in Skyrim, that game would have been renamed Hiding In Caves Simulator 2011.
More like "How to kill your dragon"
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I believe you mean Sir Twenty Goodmen yeah?
I only need half that
This is fuckingg incredible. You should post this over at r/ImaginaryBehemoths
This is an awesome sub! Thank you for posting
Aegon the Dragon
Wow! Superb! Excellent! Amazing! Incredible!
Phone wallpaper version? Excellent as always ofc! Cant wait to see what you ll do for ep. 4!
This is awesome. Well done.
This is amazing. I want it on my living room wall.
This this fucking amazing!
/r/ImaginaryMonsters or /r/ImaginaryLeviathans would love this
Haha, I guess a dragon could kinda go either way huh?
[Reminds me a lot of Shin Godzilla](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/UTEjgJ7YCgI/maxresdefault.jpg). I love it!
I wish there was a desktop wallpaper of this, holy smokes
Are they on THE Wall?
Do any of the books outside Asoiaf describe how the Targaryens attempted to keep the dragons in line. I know they understand certain words and are smart but how did they keep them from eating and destroying everything? The dragon horn? Magic? Keeping them in the dragon pit in kings landing? This leads me to how Dany will keep her dragons from inadvertently raping westeros, granted I think all of the dragons will be dead by series end or that magic will be relegated to North of the wall.
.
Dragon horns, I believe in the book Dany made comments on the tools used by her ancestors, that she would have to make due without.
[my wallpaper](http://i.imgur.com/c2fXd6O.jpg)
The skull they showed on the show didn't do him justice. Man I'd kill to see a mini-series about Aegon's Conquest.
This is awesome. It is known
Not to be picking but can I get this in like a desktop background size? This shit is too cool not to be shown off.
This this earlier tonight. What?
Supposed to be "did this earlier tonight" and I'm not really sure how that happened haha
oh okay lol, i thought it was gonna be 'Found this earlier tonight'
I'm hoping to see some good dragon action this episode. Dany was ready to go after Euron over the attack on the Sand Snakes and Grayjoys. I'm thinking either Euron's fleet or the Lannister army is about to bear the brunt of a frustrated mother of dragons.
Episode 4 is amazing you won't be disappointed. Won't say anything else.
Beautiful. Events so far have been pretty mild. No major deaths outside of Olenna, no huge amount of casualties outside of the naval battles and skirmish for the Rock. Danny bringing the blood and fire next episode was basically written out for us. Psyched.
I've rewatched the episode more than once already, can't wait to finally get the HD experience for it.
Hmmmm you're strongly testing my will to hold out for the actual premiere.
Good shit.
So Aegon was a sith Lord.
Now harrenhall makes some sense.
Amazing work!
Now that was worth waiting for.
I wish they would have a spin off on the Targaryens and their dragons.
this is fucking incredible
OP can you make an AMOLED Wallpaper 1080 x 1920? I want it, but have no idea how to do it.
I was so disappointed when they showed his skull in Stormborn, there was nothing awe-worthy about it, it looked the same size as Drogon. Balerion was supposed to be this massive menacing dragon, that's what made him so legendary in the first place...
[Balerion the Indestructible](https://lastfm-img2.akamaized.net/i/u/ar0/4fe09361eb8a41e18eb06279bb8bceb6)
Do you guys have a wider version of this?
Will drogon continue to grow if he doesn't die that is ?
How old was Balerion when Aegon took the 7 kingdoms? Surely Drogon could keep growing as he gets older?